Soranar
2022-02-19, 04:18 PM
A recent thread about bards pointed out that buffing your allies' combat abilities is not always useful and that made me rethink the A Game Paladin thread which optimized
-inspire courage (which it got through the feat : from smite to song)
-divine spirit (which it got by trading away the paladin's mount)
The original poster also combined this with the feat : sword of the arcane order but, considering you'd need to worship 2 different deities and be a member of 2 different paladin orders, I assume that was never a legal part of the build anyway
So I got to thinking on how I would build an optimized paladin and I've been hesitating between 3 options
-A desert half-orc paladin, which gets righteous fury instead of smite evil. Righteous fury works against anything and scales pretty well but it can't use serenity to lessen the MAD aspects of a paladin. But it's a morale bonus which is pretty common.
-A warforged paladin can dump CHA but the WIS penalty hurts and you can't combine Serenity with the warforged substitution levels which makes your turn undead uses very low and nearly useless. I've been trying to find something worthwhile to trade it for but I've come up short so far.
-A wayward warden paladin. The sneak attack and the lack of fear immunity means you can take craven which, unlike smite evil, can work against most things with the right magic items or spells. It also isn't limited to certain times per day, most things in 3.5 are medium or larger and you keep some uses of smite evil.
With this in mind, here's the build
Race: Strongheart Haflling
Template: none
ACF and substitution levels
-Wayward warden abilities level 3 and 5
-Curse breaker
STATS (28 pts buy)
STR 14 (for power attack)
DEX 10 (you wear heavy armor anyway)
CON 14
INT 10 (you only really need ride maxed out, 5 ranks in knowledge religion and 5 in handle animal)
WIS 16 (main stat, gets every increase)
CHA 8 (dump)
Paladin's feats
1 Mounted combat, Wild cohort (retrained into craven when you get your mount)
3 Serenity
6 Ride-by Attack
9 Spirited Charge
12 Power Attack
15 Improved bullrush
18 Shock Trooper
Mount's feats (rhinoceros which only cost -2 Paladin level)
7 Martial Study (shadow jaunt, just for a requirement but a teleport can be useful)
10 Martial Stance (islands of blades, you and your rider always flank whatever you're next to)
17 Mage Slayer
The damage
From level 1-4 you're using mounted combat to deal 1d6 +3 x2 damage from atop your riding dog (from wild cohort). By level 4 you can cast rhino's rush to deal triple damage on a charge.
From level 5+ you retrain wild cohort for craven since you're getting a mount for free.
You also add 1d6 sneak attack + craven damage against anything you flank that's at least medium or larger. You can use deathbracers to bypass immunity to crits from most things 3x per day. At 5000 gold a pair, eventually you might want to by extra bracers and swap them between combat. Note that, since craven is a static bonus, it's also multiplied on a charge by using a lance and rhino's rush.
At level 7 you get your rhino which delivers a ridiculous 4d6+24 damage on a charge, which you can double with 1 casting of rhino's rush. As I explained in the super rhinoceros thread, dealing 8d6+48 damage per charge, at level 7, is no joke.
All of this eventually leads to level 20 in which you deal
1d6 + 8 (20 STR with a +6 item) + 20 (craven) + 40 (power attack) = 71.5 damage which is multiplied by
using a lance mounted (x2) with rhino's rush (x3) and a valorous enchanted weapon (x4) and spirited charge (x5) = 357.5 damage.
while your mount deals
4d6 + 42 (32 base STR +6 from magic item) x3 (valorous enchant + rhino's rush) = 168 damage
Since you should be using a +6 belt of magnificence and tomes, your WIS should go up to 32.
Unlike a cleric, you use your WIS (Serenity) to determine your turn undead (so even at -3 level, you'll probably turn undead better than a cleric of equal level). Even at level 4, you start with a +3 WIS bonus and a +2 from knowledge religion synergy. Most Clerics can't optimize their CHA so you should be better at it than they are.
In the same vein your saves should be really high (+11 to all saves from divine grace)
Most of the spells you cast are already swift actions (rhino's rush, knight's move) or last hours (golden barding) so Battle Blessing didn't seem like it was worth the trouble. While using sword of the arcane order was tempting, a normal party should have a spellcaster willing to cast polymorph and haste on you when you need it so I wasn't as sold on investing the INT to get it.
Your mount is not joke : with 16 HD (12 BAB) and 38 STR (+14) it still has a + 26 to hit, it's always flanking and charging (another +4 to hit) and it annoys spellcasters with mage slayer. With the right magic item it can also fly or just jump really high (38 STR + 20 ranks in jump)
Finally, if you're allowed flaws, tremendous charge can make your STR irrelevant at higher levels (when your magic lance never breaks from using it).
What do you guys think? What can I improve, what would you change?
-inspire courage (which it got through the feat : from smite to song)
-divine spirit (which it got by trading away the paladin's mount)
The original poster also combined this with the feat : sword of the arcane order but, considering you'd need to worship 2 different deities and be a member of 2 different paladin orders, I assume that was never a legal part of the build anyway
So I got to thinking on how I would build an optimized paladin and I've been hesitating between 3 options
-A desert half-orc paladin, which gets righteous fury instead of smite evil. Righteous fury works against anything and scales pretty well but it can't use serenity to lessen the MAD aspects of a paladin. But it's a morale bonus which is pretty common.
-A warforged paladin can dump CHA but the WIS penalty hurts and you can't combine Serenity with the warforged substitution levels which makes your turn undead uses very low and nearly useless. I've been trying to find something worthwhile to trade it for but I've come up short so far.
-A wayward warden paladin. The sneak attack and the lack of fear immunity means you can take craven which, unlike smite evil, can work against most things with the right magic items or spells. It also isn't limited to certain times per day, most things in 3.5 are medium or larger and you keep some uses of smite evil.
With this in mind, here's the build
Race: Strongheart Haflling
Template: none
ACF and substitution levels
-Wayward warden abilities level 3 and 5
-Curse breaker
STATS (28 pts buy)
STR 14 (for power attack)
DEX 10 (you wear heavy armor anyway)
CON 14
INT 10 (you only really need ride maxed out, 5 ranks in knowledge religion and 5 in handle animal)
WIS 16 (main stat, gets every increase)
CHA 8 (dump)
Paladin's feats
1 Mounted combat, Wild cohort (retrained into craven when you get your mount)
3 Serenity
6 Ride-by Attack
9 Spirited Charge
12 Power Attack
15 Improved bullrush
18 Shock Trooper
Mount's feats (rhinoceros which only cost -2 Paladin level)
7 Martial Study (shadow jaunt, just for a requirement but a teleport can be useful)
10 Martial Stance (islands of blades, you and your rider always flank whatever you're next to)
17 Mage Slayer
The damage
From level 1-4 you're using mounted combat to deal 1d6 +3 x2 damage from atop your riding dog (from wild cohort). By level 4 you can cast rhino's rush to deal triple damage on a charge.
From level 5+ you retrain wild cohort for craven since you're getting a mount for free.
You also add 1d6 sneak attack + craven damage against anything you flank that's at least medium or larger. You can use deathbracers to bypass immunity to crits from most things 3x per day. At 5000 gold a pair, eventually you might want to by extra bracers and swap them between combat. Note that, since craven is a static bonus, it's also multiplied on a charge by using a lance and rhino's rush.
At level 7 you get your rhino which delivers a ridiculous 4d6+24 damage on a charge, which you can double with 1 casting of rhino's rush. As I explained in the super rhinoceros thread, dealing 8d6+48 damage per charge, at level 7, is no joke.
All of this eventually leads to level 20 in which you deal
1d6 + 8 (20 STR with a +6 item) + 20 (craven) + 40 (power attack) = 71.5 damage which is multiplied by
using a lance mounted (x2) with rhino's rush (x3) and a valorous enchanted weapon (x4) and spirited charge (x5) = 357.5 damage.
while your mount deals
4d6 + 42 (32 base STR +6 from magic item) x3 (valorous enchant + rhino's rush) = 168 damage
Since you should be using a +6 belt of magnificence and tomes, your WIS should go up to 32.
Unlike a cleric, you use your WIS (Serenity) to determine your turn undead (so even at -3 level, you'll probably turn undead better than a cleric of equal level). Even at level 4, you start with a +3 WIS bonus and a +2 from knowledge religion synergy. Most Clerics can't optimize their CHA so you should be better at it than they are.
In the same vein your saves should be really high (+11 to all saves from divine grace)
Most of the spells you cast are already swift actions (rhino's rush, knight's move) or last hours (golden barding) so Battle Blessing didn't seem like it was worth the trouble. While using sword of the arcane order was tempting, a normal party should have a spellcaster willing to cast polymorph and haste on you when you need it so I wasn't as sold on investing the INT to get it.
Your mount is not joke : with 16 HD (12 BAB) and 38 STR (+14) it still has a + 26 to hit, it's always flanking and charging (another +4 to hit) and it annoys spellcasters with mage slayer. With the right magic item it can also fly or just jump really high (38 STR + 20 ranks in jump)
Finally, if you're allowed flaws, tremendous charge can make your STR irrelevant at higher levels (when your magic lance never breaks from using it).
What do you guys think? What can I improve, what would you change?