Full feat Armorer artificer

[Greywander]

So an Armorer can wear heavy armor, and thus ignore DEX. They can also ignore the STR requirement for heavy armor (and if you really needed STR, there's an infusion for a Belt of Giant's Strength). Artificers can also get an infusion for a Headband of Intellect, and while it only boosts INT to 19, this might be offset by not needing to spend ASIs on INT, or even dumping INT during character creation (though you might have trouble surviving until 10th level). You can also get an infusion for an Amulet of Health, setting CON to 19. Artificers don't need WIS or CHA, either.

Basically, an Armorer artificer doesn't technically need any ability scores, as their features remove the requirements for some scores while infusions allow them to get high numbers in all of the scores they really need. This means you could use every ASI to grab a feat instead of boosting your stats. We can also start with a more balanced spread of stats at character creation; 14 INT and 12 CON (e.g. a 13/13/13/12/12/12 array, before racials) are probably sufficient to see you to 10th level. I'm sure people have thought of this, but has anyone tried it? Would you recommend it? What interesting feat combos would you go for?

Now, it is true that you're using infusion and/or attunement slots instead of ASIs to get these high stats. Is it worth it? Getting five feats would be pretty tempting.

Some feats I might consider (thinking Guardian model):

Fighting Initiate (Blind Fighting) (though no martial weapon proficiency...)
Heavy Armor Master
Mobile (allows me to tag two or three enemies with thunder gloves without provoking OAs)
Resilient (probably WIS, but DEX would be good, too)
Tough
Fey Touched (Bless?)
Alert
I'd love to get Defensive Duelist, but the requirement for a finesse weapon kills it

Point is, there's a lot of excellent feats we could take if we freed up all of our ASIs.

[Kane0]

It is a solid argument, with no need for ASIs once you get your hands on stat setting items you can grah all the feats. For a thunder gauntlet armorer i'd probably go for mobile, heavy armor master, alert, lucky, and i cant think of the last one off the top of my head

[Aalbatr0ss]

It could definitely work. But, having just spent 9 months and 30 sessions leveling an armorer from 3 to 10, this seems like a looooong time to go with <18 INT. What are you planning to do with all those turns?

All the armor-based attacks are INT based. You’re a half-caster with a bunch of control/debuff spells (web, hypnotic pattern, faerie fire). Save DC has been pretty important in my experience. Lots of other artificer goodies work off INT. With this build you’re stuck at +4 forever and tying up 2 infusions in the process.

Some of the later infusions are as good as feats (helm of awareness, winged boots) so you can be good at higher levels without compromising your tier 2.

However, mobile is REALLY nice on guardian if you want to spread the disadvantage around while tanking. We rolled so I luckily started with 17 (18 with hobgoblin) INT and took mobile at 4 then INT 20 at 8.

I’m the build you’re proposing would do fine at L10 though. Just offering my $0.02

[Rashagar]

One thing I've been wondering, can you get away without taking the Mobile feat now that Kinetic Jaunt exists? Is Mobile the kind of thing you make good use of every fight or is it only really useful occasionally, in which case the spell could theoretically enable you to take a different feat instead?

[Aalbatr0ss]

One thing I've been wondering, can you get away without taking the Mobile feat now that Kinetic Jaunt exists? Is Mobile the kind of thing you make good use of every fight or is it only really useful occasionally, in which case the spell could theoretically enable you to take a different feat instead?

I’ve never tried kinetic jaunt on an armorer. You don’t get that many preps a a half-caster, and I can’t even think what artificer prep I’d drop to get this.
I wouldn’t say mobile is all-important but there is almost always a better concentration spell. Faerie fire, web, hypnotic pattern.

[Silpharon]

Some feats I might consider (thinking Guardian model):

Fighting Initiate (Blind Fighting) (though no martial weapon proficiency...)
Heavy Armor Master
Mobile (allows me to tag two or three enemies with thunder gloves without provoking OAs)
Resilient (probably WIS, but DEX would be good, too)
Tough
Fey Touched (Bless?)
Alert
I'd love to get Defensive Duelist, but the requirement for a finesse weapon kills it


Fighting Initiate: all Artificers have firearm proficiency, which is a martial weapon. If your DM doesn't want firearms, they can remove that proficiency, but a reasonable DM would still let you take this feat. That said, Dueling is only so-so. Archery is worth it for Infiltrator mode with Sharpshooter. Blind Fighting might be worth it.

Heavy Armor Master: Decent, but not amazing. And you don't need a strength half feat.

Mobile: I'm sure this is a controversial view, but I kinda like the idea of drawing reactions out of opponents. If you're a Guardian, you can have Mirror Image in your SSI. With Haste, you can even use your SSI once per turn along with your attacks. Your AC is also sky high. Why not draw out the reactions, preventing them to be used for other purposes? If you really don't want opportunity attacks, use Kinetic Jaunt or get out of range through other means (e.g. Telekinetic). Suffice to say, maybe not Mobile...

Resilient: Can't go wrong, especially on wisdom.

Tough: More HP, nicely paired with that Amulet of Health and an upcast Aid.

Fey Touched: Yeah, I like this one a lot. Bless, Silvery Barbs, and Gift of Alacrity are all great options. Misty Step is great for getting out of trouble (or into it). I think Bless is best. Gift of Alacrity can be infused through a Spellwrought Tattoo 1st level.

Alert: Great feat, but doesn't seem necessary for a Guardian.

------- Other Options --------

Aberrant Dragonmark: Nets you Shield and a cantrip.

Dual Wielder: Suggested by Frogreaver in another thread, this feat lets you attack with your offhand Thunder Gauntlet. Nice for a Guardian build.

Lucky: Just lovely for so many uses.

Sentinel: I think this is excellent for a Guardian. It can force enemies to not ignore you by making their movement 0 on opportunity attack. Also, the interposed attack also comes before an enemy's attack, meaning you can add disadvantage to the incoming attack on your buddy.

Shield Master: Tied with Armor of Magical Strength or Belt of Hill Giant Strength, you can knock enemies prone as a bonus action (or away to avoid opportunity attack).

Skill Expert: Athletics for grappling. Stealth for Infiltrator.

Telekinetic: Excellent half feat, good to shove an enemy in front of you, but even better to move your teammates.

Infiltrator only:

Medium Armor Master: This one can be great for a 16+ Dex Infiltrator Armorer. Get Half-Plate giving 18 AC and have advantage on stealth. You can get +2 enhanced defense for 20 AC (22 with a shield). That's better than going for Mithral Plate, since you can't infuse it.

Sharpshooter: Ignore cover, shoot from 300ft, increase your damage... So good.

Crossbow Expert: Again excellent with a Dex Infiltrator. Have a hand crossbow, and use it on bonus action instead of your Homunculus Servant.

Elven Accuracy: If available, great to pair with Sharpshooter.

----------------

Suffice to say, yeah you could flatten your stats, but as was mentioned, getting to level 10 will be annoying. Maybe for a one-shot. Going Dex Infiltrator (through level 10 at least) might be a good balance, since Dex is useful for many things and there's not an infusion to set it.

Here's a build towards that aim. You can add Belt of Hill Giant Strength for Guardian mode or Headband of Intellect for Infiltrator mode.
Starting Array: 12/14/12/12/12/12
Racial Bonus: Dex+2, Custom Lineage to get to 16 Dex
Straight Armorer to 20
Base Feats: Fey Touched Bless (Wis), Medium Armor Master, Lucky
Infiltrator Focus: Sharpshooter, Skill Expert Stealth (Wis), Fighting Style Archery
Guardian Focus: Sentinel, Skill Expert Athletics (Wis), Dual Wielder

If you want to live on the edge, you could change starting stats to 8/14/10/8/15/15. Then just split your half feats between Wis and Cha. You can fill in all the bad stats with infusions.

Warning: without base Int 13 (sans items), you can't multiclass out of Artificer.

[Aalbatr0ss]

Mobile: I'm sure this is a controversial view, but I kinda like the idea of drawing reactions out of opponents. If you're a Guardian, you can have Mirror Image in your SSI. With Haste, you can even use your SSI once per turn along with your attacks. Your AC is also sky high. Why not draw out the reactions, preventing them to be used for other purposes? If you really don't want opportunity attacks, use Kinetic Jaunt or get out of range through other means (e.g. Telekinetic). Suffice to say, maybe not Mobile...



This whole list is really good. Regarding Mobile, I think the true benefit for guardian is the consistent, concentration-free increased speed rather than avoiding the AOO’s.

I’m often hitting the enemy I’m tanking, popping over to hit the one my paladin / rune knight is fighting, and then getting back in threat range of the first (or a third). This is just easier with 40’ move. And I’m usually concentrating on faerie fire or something while doing this.

The extra speed helps so much with picking your debuff targets every round + where you want to end up.

It also just makes it easier to get around the battlefield because the spot where you can do the most good tends to shift over the course of encounters.

If you want to draw an opportunity attack, you can still do that. And sometimes that will make sense.

[Silpharon]

Regarding Mobile, I think the true benefit for guardian is the consistent, concentration-free increased speed rather than avoiding the AOO’s.
I can respect that for sure, speed is great.

That said, Longstrider could serve this purpose without concentration for an hour, though with 1st spell slot use. Haste is a great all-around spell for concentration that will double your speed. These could be good in combination with mobile too.



If you want to draw an opportunity attack, you can still do that. And sometimes that will make sense.
True, you could just walk by them without attacking.

[Aalbatr0ss]

I can respect that for sure, speed is great.

That said, Longstrider could serve this purpose without concentration for an hour, though with 1st spell slot use. Haste is a great all-around spell for concentration that will double your speed. These could be good in combination with mobile too.


Yes. So many good artificer spells I never prep longstrider, but plan to start prepping scrolls for it.

Just got Haste recently, but if I cast it’s probably on one of the higher DPR like monk or fighter.

[Lavaeolus]

For that initial trek to level 10, an Armorer Artificer is not strictly limited to attacking with Intelligence. I know part of the appeal of this character is the chance to dump some stats, but while I haven't thought too much about the wider impacts of this, you could take advantage.

If you don't want to start with a 16 in Int, you could start with a 16 in Dexterity: you get a +1 to an Infiltrator's Lightning Launcher and can use any other ranged weapon, and once you get your high-level magic items you'll still be benefiting from that Dex increase (initiative, saves, etc).

You can, of course, still switch to Guardian once you get your headband. A belt of hill giant strength (gives 21 Strength) will in turn be +1 to your usual Int attacks once headbanded.


Fighting Initiate: all Artificers have firearm proficiency, which is a martial weapon. If your DM doesn't want firearms, they can remove that proficiency, but a reasonable DM would still let you take this feat. That said, Dueling is only so-so. Archery is worth it for Infiltrator mode with Sharpshooter. Blind Fighting might be worth it.

If your DM decides firearm proficiency won't exist in the campaign, then there are a few races that grant weapon proficiencies if you really want Fighting Initiate. Sure, the feat has some stiff competition, but most of them are solid enough in their own right weapons-aside, so you're not paying too much of a cost if you go with them. (Specifically: dwarves, elves, half-elves, githyanki and hobgoblins, unless I'm forgetting anyone.)

[Izodonia]

Dual Wielder: Suggested by Frogreaver in another thread, this feat lets you attack with your offhand Thunder Gauntlet. Nice for a Guardian build.


That depends on whether the gauntlet counts as a light weapon, which it probably should. If it does, all this feat does is give you +1 AC. It's much more useful to get the Two-Weapon Fighting style, which will give you the INT/STR damage bonus to your second hand.

[Evaar]

That depends on whether the gauntlet counts as a light weapon, which it probably should. If it does, all this feat does is give you +1 AC. It's much more useful to get the Two-Weapon Fighting style, which will give you the INT/STR damage bonus to your second hand.

It doesn’t have the Light property. The gauntlets are simple melee weapons which deal 1d8 Thunder damage; they have no other weapon properties.

[Izodonia]

It doesn’t have the Light property. The gauntlets are simple melee weapons which deal 1d8 Thunder damage; they have no other weapon properties.

I get that that's the RAW, but seriously - if you're holding a shortsword in a gauntleted hand, you're holding a light weapon, but if you drop it you're now holding a regular-weight weapon?

[Silpharon]

I get that that's the RAW, but seriously - if you're holding a shortsword in a gauntleted hand, you're holding a light weapon, but if you drop it you're now holding a regular-weight weapon?

Good point, but something so clearly not RAW will be hit or miss with a DM. I can hear them asking, "but what if WotC intended them not to be light so that you have to take the feat? Maybe it's too powerful otherwise..."

[Aalbatr0ss]

That depends on whether the gauntlet counts as a light weapon, which it probably should. If it does, all this feat does is give you +1 AC. It's much more useful to get the Two-Weapon Fighting style, which will give you the INT/STR damage bonus to your second hand.

Dual wielder removes the "light" requirement. If you took dual wielder you'd just get the +1 AC if your hands are empty other than the gauntlets.


I get that that's the RAW, but seriously - if you're holding a shortsword in a gauntleted hand, you're holding a light weapon, but if you drop it you're now holding a regular-weight weapon?

There are no other light melee weapons that do 1d8 damage (I'm pretty sure) .This would make the thunder gauntlets uniquely powerful if you ruled they could have the "light" property.

If you need a physical rationale for this, maybe you need to put more force behind a punch than a slash?

[Evaar]

I get that that's the RAW, but seriously - if you're holding a shortsword in a gauntleted hand, you're holding a light weapon, but if you drop it you're now holding a regular-weight weapon?

Not saying it's not dumb, but that's what the rule is. Similarly with the Beast Barbarian's Claw weapons not being Light. You don't attack with both hands when you're Raging with your Claws, you either Claw 3 times with a shield or you could decide to use two Short Swords, attack with mainhand Short Sword, drop mainhand Short Sword, mainhand Claw twice, then offhand Short Sword, free object interaction to pick up the Short Sword you dropped.

Accomplishing that is easy, but attacking 4 times in a round with your Claws? Impossible!

You might be able to get a DM to add the Light property to these features, but as written they don't have it so we shouldn't count on it.

[Izodonia]

Ugh. The more I come to understand the Armorer, the more I realize how useless a class it is - no matter how cool I want it to be.

[Evaar]

Ugh. The more I come to understand the Armorer, the more I realize how useless a class it is - no matter how cool I want it to be.

I don't know about that. I'm playing in a level 15 one-shot this weekend and planning to play an Armorer to try out some stuff. I'll see how it does, but what I have so far feels like it'll be very effective for control and tanking. Maybe not "best-in-class" but almost certainly solid. I'll post my experience.

Also for what it's worth, while the premise of the original post is correct, I'm not convinced it's the optimal path. Infusions are so valuable, I'd really rather not waste them all on bumping up my abilities when I could just have decent scores in the first place and use my infusions to, say, get advantage on initiative rolls or have a homunculus to use my spell storing item.

[HPisBS]

... or have a homunculus to use my spell storing item.

Could cast Tiny Servant and save the infusion slot.

[Aalbatr0ss]

I don't know about that. I'm playing in a level 15 one-shot this weekend and planning to play an Armorer to try out some stuff.

I don't suppose you could share your build once you're done? Just curious. I have a L10 armorer I've played 30 sessions now. Not sure how to proceed from here, looking for ideas.

[Thesta]

I don't suppose you could share your build once you're done? Just curious. I have a L10 armorer I've played 30 sessions now. Not sure how to proceed from here, looking for ideas.

If you don't mind posting it, Evaar, I would be interested as well. :smallsmile: You don't often get to see high-level characters actually be used in a game, after all!

[Evaar]

Sure, happy to share if it works out alright. We'll see how it goes. If it ends up being ineffective I won't waste everyone's time.

Regarding Tiny Servant for the Spell Storing Item - it's certainly an option, but I think I still lean toward the Homunculus. Homunculus can fly and has Evasion, can throw out some ranged attacks after it's used the item, plus 3rd level spell slots are valuable (keep in mind Armorer gets Hypnotic Pattern). I'm already hitting my attunement limit so my options for more infusions aren't ideal.

Probably what I should really do is just use Find Familiar instead, since I have a couple Wizard levels anyway, but whatever I'm going with the Homunculus.

[Evaar]

The adventure wasn't really challenging, so a lot of my tools felt like overkill.

As mentioned it's a level 15 one-shot, so I went Armorer 13, War Wizard 2. 14 is a good level for Artificer so it was a little painful to leave that on the table, but both levels of Wizard are super valuable so I couldn't afford to reduce them.

Starting Abilities were Str 8, Dex 12, Con 15, Intelligence 17, Wisdom 14, Charisma 8.

My race was Tiefling with bonuses applied at +2 Intelligence +1 Constitution. I went with the Zariel subrace, as those spells are basically free damage on melee attacks. Other Tiefling spells generally rely on Charisma until ruled otherwise, so any that required an attack roll or save wasn't worth it. Of the ones that don't, most were just utility. Given the nature of the one-shot, I figured the minimal combat benefit was worth it.

I took Flames of Phlegethos to round out my Intelligence to 18, a +2 to Intelligence ASI, and the Infernal Constitution feat to get my Con to 16. I also spent one of my infusions on Gauntlets of Ogre Strength to boost my Strength from 8 to 19.

Skills were Arcana, History, Investigation, and Athletics. I see this character as sort of a Black Company character, a leading officer of a mercenary group responsible for tactical planning.

I had 3 Cantrips from Artificer and 3 from Wizard. I chose Create Bonfire, Mending, Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade, Thorn Whip, and Fire Bolt. Tiefling also came with Thaumaturgy.

This character plays as a Guardian Armorer.

So for Flames of Phlegethos, the idea is we're using the property of our Thunder Gauntlets imposing disadvantage on enemies we hit when they try to attack anyone but us. Greenflame Blade can enable the retributive damage of the feat while also applying the weapon effect, plus when we get the cleave damage it should on average outdamage Extra Attack. Similar for Booming Blade when we expect the punishment damage to activate, though naturally that doesn't activate the feat.

Infernal Constitution is just good value if you can afford it. Fire, Cold, and Poison are all really common. Tiefling comes with Fire resist, this feat adds Cold and Poison (including advantage on poison saves).

I was allowed one Rare item and one Uncommon item. For the rare I chose the Stirring Scaled Ornament, an item from Fizban's which is frankly broken. It's +1 to AC, immunity to charms and fears, advantage against charms and fears to allies within 30 feet. It's just super good. Not critical to the build though. For the Uncommon I decided to make my Plate Armor into Adamantine, since that's not magical and will still let me infuse the armor itself while granting me Crit protection. Worth noting for you Artificers out there - if you have the right proficiencies and you come across some raw Adamantine, Fabricate can allow you to fashion yourself a suit of non-magical Adamantine armor that you can then infuse. Same for Mithral.

My two Armorer infusions were Enhanced Defense to the armor and Helm of Awareness for advantage on initiative. This stacks nicely with the War Wizard initiative bonus. That's good because we have a lot of control spells. Enhanced Defense makes our AC 20, and the Scaled Ornament makes it 21. I also carried a shield unequipped, because I mostly want my hands free to grapple, but it's an option when I think +2 AC is better than grappling. Anytime the enemy is Huge or bigger, essentially.

My other infusions were Radiant Weapon on my gauntlet (I could've gone Enhanced Weapon for a +2, but I decided I liked the option to blind enemies I hit more than I valued another +1 and the attunement slot); Homunculus Servant (for using my Spell Storing Item, which I charged with Web), Pipes of Haunting, and Gauntlets of Ogre Power. I would've loved if we had a Conquest Paladin for me to hand the Pipes to, but even without that they're pretty good. 3 charges a day to Frighten enemies in a large area without affecting allies.

Because of the 2 levels of Wizard I have a bunch of level 1 preparations, I used those on Absorb Elements, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall (which definitely came up), Longstrider, Protection from Evil and Good, and Shield. I used one of my Artificer preparations on Cure Wounds mostly because I felt obligated to have SOME healing ability. Armorer prepares Magic Missile and Thunderwave for free, and Zariel gives me Searing Smite 1/day.

Level 2 spells Armorer gets Mirror Image and Shatter, Zariel gives me Branding Smite, and I prepared Arcane Lock, Lesser Restoration, and Vortex Warp (from Strixhaven - all WotC content was on the table for this game). I would've prepared Web but had to sacrifice it for Cure Wounds, plus it's in the Spell Storing Item. I considered putting Shatter in the item, but the party had dedicated damage dealers who benefit from advantage a lot, so I decided Web was more worthwhile. Circumstances meant it didn't actually see much use, so maybe that was a mistake, but Web is still a really powerful spell and being able to cast it effectively Concentration-free with a bonus action (because the Homunculus casts and Concentrates on it) just seems too valuable to pass up. But Shatter is a decent choice when you consider you get 10/day uses at the cost of a bonus action. If that's what your group needs, don't sleep on it.

Level 3 spells Armorer gets Lightning Bolt and Hypnotic Pattern. So that means in one turn, if we want, we can cast Hypnotic Pattern and Web. I also prepared Ashardalon's Stride, Blink, Dispel Magic, Fly, Intellect Fortress, and Revivify. Ashardalon's Stride just seems fun, plus it activates Flames of Phlegethos. Blink isn't something I'd normally do on a tank, but since we can impose disadvantage with the Thunder Gauntlets it's decent - they get disadvantage to hit anyone else and can't target us, not bad. Dispel Magic obviously important, and uniquely good for Artificers for reasons I've described elsewhere (you add Expertise based on RAW, see my post in the "rules that don't make sense" thread). Fly is too important not to have. Intellect Fortress I've found to be really useful when you know it's going to be relevant. And Revivify, obviously it's another "when you need it you really need it."

Level 4 spells Armorer gets Fire Shield and Greater Invisibility. I also prepared Freedom of Movement. I would also consider Otiluke's but we had a Wizard so I decided he could take that one if he wanted. Fire Shield is unfortunately a touch redundant since we already resist both damage types, but it's not a cheap spell for an Artificer to cast so I don't feel bad about investing the feat there. Greater Invisibility is obviously great. Freedom of Movement can be important when trying to get your melee past obstacles to get in reach of the enemy.

I was juggling a lot of resources with this character. Apart from spell slots, I have Defensive Field proficiency/day, spell storing item 2xIntelligenceBonus/day, Flash of Genius IntelligenceBonus/day, 4 charges of Radiant Weapon, 3 charges of Pipes of Haunting.

The big reason I wanted to play this build in a one-shot is because I don't know the best way to level up to this point. Every level feels so important, it's hard to say when it really "comes together."

Realistically Flames of Phlegethos didn't contribute much, it was just something I wanted to try out. Fact is I don't think I took a single hit against my AC - one attack managed to beat a 21 and I deflected that with an Arcane Deflection. The damage reroll didn't come into play. Obviously the +1 intelligence was good, but there are lots of more effective ways to get that.

Grappling didn't come into play much, but Shoving did. Knocking targets prone was generally pretty valuable and cheap to do. One creature I managed to shove off a tower to its death, so that was good. The Gauntlets and my Athletics proficiency also helped me avoid getting shoved off the tower myself, which is better than I can say for our Wizard and Paladin. Did I mention Feather Fall ended up being really handy? I liked having the flexibility to use these options, and having both hands free meant I never felt limited.

To optimize this you'd probably do Skill Expert or Fey Touched instead of Flames of Phlegethos. Infernal Constitution didn't come up a ton, but I still think it's worth it. But if you disagree, then there's no particular need to be a Tiefling. Strip that out and it's pretty straightforward - Armorer Artificer 13 and War Wizard 2, pick the best spells, pick infusions carefully. Also I should note I was very selfish with my infusions since I was joining a group in progress and couldn't have handed them out ahead of time. It's a valid choice, but overall there are probably infusions that'll do more for your allies than they'll do for you. Pipes of Haunting especially, as I mentioned, if you have a Conquest Paladin who can play them.

[Silpharon]

The adventure wasn't really challenging, so a lot of my tools felt like overkill...

This is interesting, thanks for sharing! How did you feel the War Wizard Arcane Deflection worked out? Were you using it more/less than Flash of Genius?

[Evaar]

This is interesting, thanks for sharing! How did you feel the War Wizard Arcane Deflection worked out? Were you using it more/less than Flash of Genius?

Arcane Deflection was great to have. The combination of that and Tactical Wit was super valuable - again, I had Helm of Awareness for advantage on initiative so having a higher average score meant I always beat Team Monster. Plus the extra cantrip versatility that comes from the multiclass was also valuable - I used 5 cantrips in the session, at 15 an Artificer only has 3. And if I dropped the one I didn't use, that would mean I wouldn't have Mending to use on my Homunculus if it took damage. Fine for a session, but over a longer game you probably want to be able to heal it. Plus it add Shield to our spell list. There's just so much you get from those 2 Wizard levels, I really think you'd feel restricted without them.

Flash of Genius I had an opportunity to use but missed it - someone made a saving throw and I didn't react in time to grant it, new character and all. But any of my own saves were better served with Arcane Deflection, given it's unlimited and we don't need to cast leveled spells on most of our turns. I failed one saving throw in the session and neither Arcane Deflection nor Flash of Genius would've solved it (it was just some bludgeoning damage, largely absorbed by my THP, no big deal).

[Silpharon]

Arcane Deflection was great to have. The combination of that and Tactical Wit was super valuable - again, I had Helm of Awareness for advantage on initiative so having a higher average score meant I always beat Team Monster. Plus the extra cantrip versatility that comes from the multiclass was also valuable - I used 5 cantrips in the session, at 15 an Artificer only has 3. And if I dropped the one I didn't use, that would mean I wouldn't have Mending to use on my Homunculus if it took damage. Fine for a session, but over a longer game you probably want to be able to heal it. Plus it add Shield to our spell list. There's just so much you get from those 2 Wizard levels, I really think you'd feel restricted without them.

Flash of Genius I had an opportunity to use but missed it - someone made a saving throw and I didn't react in time to grant it, new character and all. But any of my own saves were better served with Arcane Deflection, given it's unlimited and we don't need to cast leveled spells on most of our turns. I failed one saving throw in the session and neither Arcane Deflection nor Flash of Genius would've solved it (it was just some bludgeoning damage, largely absorbed by my THP, no big deal).

Thanks, that's good feedback. I'm building an Armorer that's multiclassing out at level 5, going to pick up 2 levels in war wizard as well. Probably won't come back to Armorer, so good to hear at least in combat that Arcane Deflection served you well.

As for initiative, I'm using a Gift of Alacrity Spellwought Tattoo to bouce the initiative score on top of Tactical Wit. As I think others have brought up though... you can use Flash of Genius to add to your initiative.

[Evaar]

Thanks, that's good feedback. I'm building an Armorer that's multiclassing out at level 5, going to pick up 2 levels in war wizard as well. Probably won't come back to Armorer, so good to hear at least in combat that Arcane Deflection served you well.

As for initiative, I'm using a Gift of Alacrity Spellwought Tattoo to bouce the initiative score on top of Tactical Wit. As I think others have brought up though... you can use Flash of Genius to add to your initiative.

You can, but I prefer to use it on really critical saves and ability checks (like a clutch counterspell or a "make or break" persuasion check - I'm still irritated about the time we collected all the mementos to redeem a corrupted dragon but still didn't succeed because we failed a charisma check when talking to him).

Depending on the fight, it may well be worth ensuring you get the initiative edge. Just keep in mind it's a limited resource. And if you aren't going back to Armorer after 5, you won't have it at all.

I would strongly recommend if you're doing Armorer you go to at least 9. The infusions make the Artificer, 2 bonus infusions is a big deal.

[Greywander]

You can, but I prefer to use it on really critical saves and ability checks (like a clutch counterspell or a "make or break" persuasion check - I'm still irritated about the time we collected all the mementos to redeem a corrupted dragon but still didn't succeed because we failed a charisma check when talking to him).
I don't know the exact circumstances around the situation you're describing, so it's hard for me to pass judgement. But this kind of sounds like poor DMing. If you went to the effort to gather all the Macguffins, then it should have advanced the plot. It's generally not a good idea to hang everything on a single ability check. That said, this can be great for creating a tense moment, but you should always make sure either outcome is acceptable (not necessarily good for the PCs, but enjoyable for the players). Perhaps what the DM could have done was allow the dragon to be purified of the corruption regardless, but then use a CHA check to determine if the dragon would be friendly, neutral, or hostile after the purification.

Generally it's a better idea to allow the players to choose how to approach a situation, which in turn allows them to determine what sorts of ability checks they may need to make. If their approach fails, they can switch gears and try something else, which might succeed, but the situation might have also worsened if they got particularly bad rolls on their previous attempt. Generally, multiple checks should also be employed, where partial success can still put them in a more favorable position, even if it doesn't outright solve whatever problem they're dealing with.

Again, it's just generally not a good idea to hang such an important plot point on a single ability check. But without knowing more about your situation, it's hard to say for sure if your DM did you wrong. But combat is never resolved with a single roll, and neither should important plot elements. Combat is a back and forth, where each roll puts you in a more- or less-favorable position, and you can make changes to your strategy if you're doing poorly, and running away is always an option if you're in over your head. The plot should be treated similarly.

[Evaar]

I don't know the exact circumstances around the situation you're describing, so it's hard for me to pass judgement. But this kind of sounds like poor DMing.

Definitely not the DM's fault here, except arguably with the premise of the entire campaign. He essentially created a very large project to run Dungeon of the Mad Mage simultaneously for multiple groups and have them sort of compete (in parallel dimensions, so everyone was overcoming the same obstacles) to see who made it through first. As part of that, the campaign was strictly RAW - with whatever absurdities that entailed. It was the easiest way to keep things consistent, and it was basically an opportunity for us as players to do whatever ridiculous builds we wanted as long as they were RAW. Knowing the campaign could theoretically go to 20 made it a rare opportunity.

So given all that, that's how WotC wrote this encounter. You have to obtain a certain number of macguffins to even have a chance at persuading the enemy (and I would say they made it WAYYY to easy to not even notice this was something you could do), and then once you get to him and present the macguffins you need to make a series of difficult Persuasion checks. If you fail X number of times before you succeed Y number of times, he attacks.

So blame WotC for writing it that way. Most DMs probably read that and say "Well that's stupid, I'm going to change it" but the premise of the campaign was strict RAW across the board. We knew what we were signing up for with that. It's just one of those things where WotC's design encourages you not to bother engaging at any level deeper than murder hoboism. *shrug*


We won the race, by the way.

[Greywander]

That does make more sense. And it sounds like even in the original module they at least gave multiple checks, but it doesn't sound like there was any alternative options in case you aren't rolling well, so just cross your fingers and hope for the best I guess. At least it sounds like more of an optional side quest, but it still kind of sucks.

Sometimes you just get unlucky, but it's never fun when it feels like you just got screwed over by RNG. If there's one lesson game designers should learn from Dark Souls, it's that the players should feel like it's their own fault when they fail, and they should already be thinking of what they can try differently even before they respawn. The DM can at least take the edge off by describing the narrative of the failure in a way that makes the players feel better about the failure, such as a dramatic and tense duel ending in the PC being bested, but by a legitimate badass and not some random mook. The DM can't do that all the time, but they can do it some of the time. A failed Acrobatics check doesn't always need to be the PC tripping over their own feet, sometimes it's a piece of the floor giving way and the PC performs a triple backflip to safety, but not where they were originally aiming to jump to.

There's ways to make failure both satisfying and interesting, and in fact failure often leads to something more interesting than success, but it's also easy to just turn a failure into "lol u suck lmao". It would be one thing if you were actually to blame, and sometimes (okay, often) you are, and sometimes it's just the dice and there's nothing you can do. If you were given the chance to replay a scenario, and you would choose to do the same thing you did before, then I feel like that's a failure of the system (though this is an expected limitation of dice-based systems, or really any kind of system that isn't deterministic and uses RNG). If you take literally the best option and still fail, then what more could you have done? Unfortunately, I don't know that there's a good answer to this as long as you're using a system with RNG, so at some point you have to just accept the inherent risk that every roll brings and the consequences if you fail.

TL;DR, sometimes you're playing Pokemon and you miss with Thunder three times in a row and lose because of it, and there just isn't anything you can do about that.

'Grats on winning the race, by the way.

[Evaar]

That does make more sense. And it sounds like even in the original module they at least gave multiple checks, but it doesn't sound like there was any alternative options in case you aren't rolling well, so just cross your fingers and hope for the best I guess. At least it sounds like more of an optional side quest, but it still kind of sucks.

Yeah you can just kill the evil dragon and loot the hoard.

I looked it up, you have 4 chances to make a DC20 persuasion/deception check and you need 3 successes. So basically if you find all 4 items it'll let you fail once but if you fail twice you're done. And doing this requires an action while the dragon is trying to kill you, so you probably don't want to spend 4 rounds doing it, so chances are you have the items spread out across the party. And it's not like the adventure warns you in advance that the gifts aren't enough on their own, you don't walk into the room knowing you have to make DC20 persuasion or deception checks.

It's basically set up to have the players fail unless they're extraordinarily lucky or if they've read the adventure ahead of time and planned for it.

But yeah it's optional, you can just kill him. But if that's the lesson you're teaching your players, you can't be surprised when they end up playing like murderhobos. Just campaign design gripes.

[Izodonia]

None of this changes the fact that the Armorer is the only class in the game that can't use magical weapons and armor. They have to use class features to simulate something other classes get for free.

[Amechra]

None of this changes the fact that the Armorer is the only class in the game that can't use magical weapons and armor. They have to use class features to simulate something other classes get for free.

*laughs in Monk*

In all seriousness, the Armorer's Arcane Armor doesn't have to be non-magical.

[PhantomSoul]

*laughs in Monk*

In all seriousness, the Armorer's Arcane Armor doesn't have to be non-magical.

Yeah -- it can't be Magical to be Infused, but Arcane Armor doesn't have the same restriction.

[Izodonia]

*laughs in Monk*


There are monks who don't use weapons?

[Izodonia]

In all seriousness, the Armorer's Arcane Armor doesn't have to be non-magical.

True, perhaps, although it can cause some serious problems at Level 9. I'd hate to be the guy who has to sell his hard-earned magical plate to be able to use a key class feature.

But it's the weapons thing that really gets to me. Everyone else - melee, missile, caster - can find an item that'll give them a bonus to their primary attack... but not the Armorer, despite being in a class that's all about the magical weapons. It bugs me. A lot.

[Greywander]

None of this changes the fact that the Armorer is the only class in the game that can't use magical weapons and armor. They have to use class features to simulate something other classes get for free.
Well... magic items aren't exactly "free", and the artificer has guarantied access to infusions while access to magic items is not guarantied. But yes, if you do have access to magic items, then there isn't really a cost to using them (aside from attunement, but even then not all magic items use attunement), whereas infusions do have a cost both in infusions known and active infusions.

But yeah, of all classes and subclasses, the Armorer should not be the worst at using armor. That's kind of the entire point of- wait, wrong thread. I started a thread on this topic here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642885-Armorer-Artificer-Magic-Armor-and-Infusions).

As for weapons, you can use the Enhanced Weapon infusion (or a couple of your other weapon infusions) on your special weapon, putting it on par with a weapon +2. It sucks that it costs you an infusion, but the Armorer does get two extra infusions at 9th level. A non-RAW option to buff your special weapon (or at least the thunder gauntlets) is to allow the Arcane Propulsion Armor to stack, making the gauntlets deal both thunder and force damage, and be able to be thrown. While I'm pretty sure the Arcane Propulsion Armor isn't intended to stack, it makes it make a lot more sense why that infusion isn't available until 14th level (it's actually a pretty lackluster infusions otherwise). You could also homebrew some magic items.

[Silpharon]

But it's the weapons thing that really gets to me. Everyone else - melee, missile, caster - can find an item that'll give them a bonus to their primary attack... but not the Armorer, despite being in a class that's all about the magical weapons. It bugs me. A lot.

Yeah, you get locked into two weapons, unless you're a Dex Armorer (which actually works pretty well with the hand crossbow, XBE optimization, and headband of Intellect infusion). The typical case, though, is intended to be run Int SAD.

That said, I actually think the weapons are pretty good, especially Infiltrator:

Does 2d6 on 1st hit, 1d6 thereafter, which is by itself better than any standard ranged weapon.
Then the damage type is lightning, not piercing, so not many resistant creatures.
I can use Int with it... great for multiclassing out to Wizard.
No ammunition or loading property.
No ammunition to manage.
You don't even need a free hand to hold the weapon...at all!


On my character I'm multiclassing out of Armorer at 5, and I will have 0 infusions related to my armor (ha!). To be fair, I'm dipping Forge Cleric to get +1 on the weapon. I'll wield a shield in one hand, and some other magic item in the other (like an All Purpose Tool), and still get my attacks in. No need for War Caster. Bueno. I don't think I'll miss +2/+3 too much.

I'll hunt for mithral and build myself Mithral Plate, allowing permanent stealth advantage. +1/2/3 shield, let's go!

If you multiclassed to Kensei monk as a light armor Dex Infiltrator, you could use their class ability to get +1/2/3 to the weapon. :P

[Greywander]

That said, I actually think the weapons are pretty good, especially Infiltrator:
The infiltrator's weapon is just a lighting crossbow. The thunder gauntlets actually have a pretty useful rider effect. The lightning launcher isn't bad, to be sure, but compared to what the thunder gauntlets are to a tank build, they feel like they know who the favorite child is. And it isn't them.



Then the damage type is lightning, not piercing, so not many resistant creatures.
Lightning is in the same league as fire and cold. Slightly better, but not massively so.

Honestly, most of the time it won't matter. It's just that "the rest of the time" will be a bit more often than it would be with a magic bow/crossbow.


No ammunition or loading property.
No ammunition to manage.
This is less impressive when the Repeating Shot infusion exists. Getting it for free is definitely nice, though, plus being able to stack another infusion (e.g. Enhanced Weapon). TBH, the big draw here is probably being able to use a shield with your ranged weapon, something that normally requires an infusion. (Though I'm still salty that it was errata'd that one-handed ranged weapons need a free hand to reload, because it feels like that defeats the purpose of them being one-handed, and plus there are historical examples of slingers using shields.)