Why I dislike Custom Lineage [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-02-20, 03:14 AM

So we're 2 campaigns in with Custom Lineage characters and I can't say I'd be thrilled about having them in anything else I'd be DMing or playing in the near future. Issues include:

General Power Creap
Characters that have max ability at level 4 (with a 1/2 feat kicker). Basically a really weird power curve.
Disperportional buff to SAD characters. Compared to the above example the MAD character is now further behind and will stay that way. The MAD character is going to be 16th level by the time they get 20s in 2 relevant abilities, and the SAD character has had the opportunity to get several feats. (I am aware of the optional rule to allow Mountain Dwarves to move ability modifiers, though I hardly think having one comparable 'race' is much of an improvement, even if our group gets around the thematic issues with this).

Skrum

2022-02-20, 03:51 AM

I think you're blaming the wrong problem - the fact the game designers put feats and ASI's in conflict means the advantage of being SAD is going to be that much more.

My opinion, more player options is almost always a good thing.

Cheesegear

2022-02-20, 04:27 AM

My opinion, more player options is almost always a good thing.

Are you an 'Elf'
Are you an 'Orc'
Maybe you're a 'Human'

Doesn't matter. All Wizards start the game with at least 16 Int. That is, all Wizards are basically the same. All Clerics, regardless of species, have 16+ Wis, etc.
Your species has no impact on your class anymore.
The only thing that matters are your ability scores.

Are you an 'Elf' that can be put to sleep? You're not an Elf.
Are you a Bugbear that doesn't have long arms? You're not a Bugbear.
Are you a Triton that can't swim? You're not a Triton.

When the majority of your players at the table see one option as empirically stronger than any other choice (start with an 18 in your main stat, and a Feat, and Darkvision), and then, those players all start picking that option...All characters are the same. You might pretend that they're not. But they are.

If you want to remove species from your game; Telling your players about the mechanical advantages of playing 'Custom Lineage' is the way to do it.

Boci

2022-02-20, 05:10 AM

Yeah, I remember playing a drow druid and not being able to start with 16 wisdom really added a nice touch to the character that would have been lost with custom lineage.

Amnestic

2022-02-20, 05:52 AM

When the majority of your players at the table see one option as empirically stronger than any other choice (start with an 18 in your main stat, and a Feat, and Darkvision),

And yet there are plenty of races I'd pick over custom lineage for their features depending on the build (same as v.human), so "empirically stronger" seems a bit of a perception issue.

Bobthewizard

2022-02-20, 06:17 AM

I think the benefits of other races grow over time. The starting feat becomes less important maybe by level 8, at least by level 12, and some of the racial benefits are better than an extra feat once you've had time to get your most important feat. Half-orc's relentless endurance is great. I like the whole package that high elves get. Gnomes get advantage on saves against magic. All of those are worth a feat. Maybe not compared to the big one you'll need for your build to work - Res. CON, Warcaster, PAM, CBE, SS, GWM - which is why variant human and custom lineage are so great in tier 1. But after you get your first feat, I'd rather have those racial abilities than just an additional +2 to my main stat.

When I DM, I also give a free feat at character creation that doesn't stack with V. Human or Custom Lineage, so I haven't had a human in any of my parties, except a couple dragonmarked ones in an Eberron campaign. So if you don't like variant human and custom lineage, that's a simple solution that the players love.

Gurgeh

2022-02-20, 06:41 AM

Characters that have max ability at level 4 (with a 1/2 feat kicker). Basically a really weird power curve.
It's been possible to achieve this at level 1 from the very beginning of the edition. Point buy is a variant rule, rolled stats (or the standard array) are the design assumption.

Lycurgon

2022-02-20, 06:57 AM

The thing I dislike most about Custom Lineage is they could have created an interesting system to make custom races and they chose the most boring way they could have. Take a Varient Human and make minor tweaks that make it a bit better and done!

stoutstien

2022-02-20, 06:57 AM

It's not that different from variant human. Both are weak on the thematic side but are favored by those who are looking at getting certain feats online sooner.

diplomancer

2022-02-20, 07:35 AM

It's not that different from variant human. Both are weak on the thematic side but are favored by those who are looking at getting certain feats online sooner.

Humans are, well, human. We know what a human is. You don't need a lot of flavour text to describe them. Custom lineage is a cypher.

But what makes it worse is what OP mentioned; not only is it a cypher, it's a cypher that's mechanically more powerful for many builds than more flavourful options. So it directly incentivizes mechanics over story.

IF I allowed a Custom Lineage (I probably wouldn't), I'd require the player to make a fluff for it, subject to my approval and/or revision.

Boci

2022-02-20, 07:44 AM

IF I allowed a Custom Lineage, I'd require tye player to make a fluff for it, subject to my approval and/or revision

Could you elaborate on this please? Say I want to make a dwarven wizard, what would be the fluff you'd accept for getting +2 int and con? I studied really hard? I was adopted by high elves and picked up on their academic endeavours (so also taking a background that gives a bonus language to get that aspect of the high elf race too), whilst also having the innate resilience of dwarves?

I'm just wondering how you fluff states bonuses, since they're pretty basic, it not like a specific technique which gives you more options to specify who exactly trained you.

diplomancer

2022-02-20, 07:50 AM

Could you elaborate on this please? Say I want to make a dwarven wizard, what would be the fluff you'd accept for getting +2 int and con? I studied really hard? I was adopted by high elves and picked up on their academic endeavours (so also taking a background that gives a bonus language to get that aspect of the high elf race too), whilst also having the innate resilience of dwarves?

I'm just wondering how you fluff states bonuses, since they're pretty basic, it not like a specific technique which gives you more options to specify who exactly trained you.

This is not Custom Lineage, which is its own Race option, this is Tasha's adjustable ASIs, a variant rule for existing races. If a player of mine wants to play Custom Lineage, I expect him to design the fluff of a Race.

I'm not wholly opposed to Tasha's ASIs ¹, but one of the few combinations I outright forbid the use of this variant rule is Mountain Dwarf Wizard.

¹- I don't like it. As a player, I don't use it. As a DM, I'd rather my players don't use it, but if they want to, I usually let them.

stoutstien

2022-02-20, 08:55 AM

Humans are, well, human. We know what a human is. You don't need a lot of flavour text to describe them. Custom lineage is a cypher.

But what makes it worse is what OP mentioned; not only is it a cypher, it's a cypher that's mechanically more powerful for many builds than more flavourful options. So it directly incentivizes mechanics over story.

IF I allowed a Custom Lineage (I probably wouldn't), I'd require the player to make a fluff for it, subject to my approval and/or revision.

I'm just pointing out this is not a new predicament with some options. Anything building off the feat system is bound to have issues.

diplomancer

2022-02-20, 09:01 AM

I'm just pointing out this is not a new predicament with some options. Anything building off the feat system is bound to have issues.

I wouldn't say V. Humans are "weak on the thematic side", as you've said. That's what I was objecting to, and believe it's an unfair comparison to Custom Lineage (which has NO thematic side at all, it's powerful mechanics entirely devoid of fluff). But if that's how you fell about V. Humans, ok.

Pex

2022-02-20, 09:46 AM

I fully support the concept having an 18 at first level is perfectly fine, but Custom Lineage is not the way to do it for Point Buy. It is bland. It is uninspiring. I would support it as the new variant human to be the official human because the rule that allows races to move their ability scores bonuses makes human obsolete. The actual variant human barely remains relevant because the bonus feat is still good.

stoutstien

2022-02-20, 09:53 AM

I wouldn't say V. Humans are "weak on the thematic side", as you've said. That's what I was objecting to, and believe it's an unfair comparison to Custom Lineage (which has NO thematic side at all, it's powerful mechanics entirely devoid of fluff). But if that's how you fell about V. Humans, ok.

That's fair. I personally don't like humans in DnD since 2E so there's that

Skrum

2022-02-20, 10:48 AM

Keravath

2022-02-20, 11:02 AM

Custom Lineage can come with some power creep if you assume getting a 20 stat at level 4 amounts to power creep. This has always been relatively easy to achieve with rolled stats. In game terms the difference between 18 and 20 at level 4 is a +1. For a spell caster, +1 to hit, +1 DC, +1 spell prepared, +1 to relevant ability checks - for a martial typically +1 to hit, +1 damage, +1 to relevant ability checks.

If that is game breaking then I think perhaps there is an issue with the game. The idea that a +1 breaks things seems a bit odd to me.

I have a character with 16 as their highest stat at level 11 and it works fine. Many other characters will have 20 at level 11. The difference is +2.

From a thematic perspective, it can be hard to pigeon hole custom lineage. I've used it for two characters, neither of which fit into any other species niche. One character is part of a technological species that was kidnapped from another universe by mindflayers in a spelljammer (RotFM). The other is the result of illicit magical genetic experimentation to produce better warriors at the end of the Last War (Eberron). Both concepts are fun so far and neither really fit with existing species. As a result, when used appropriately, I don't really have much issue with Custom Lineage as a game element.

Tanarii

2022-02-20, 11:13 AM

My opinion, more player options is almost always a good thing.As was pointed out vigorously during the preview/release by many folks, it could easily actually decrease options. Not increase them.

And anecdotally from what I hear, that is what's been happening.

From a thematic perspective, it can be hard to pigeon hole custom lineage. I've used it for two characters, neither of which fit into any other species niche. One character is part of a technological species that was kidnapped from another universe by mindflayers in a spelljammer (RotFM). The other is the result of illicit magical genetic experimentation to produce better warriors at the end of the Last War (Eberron). Both concepts are fun so far and neither really fit with existing species. As a result, when used appropriately, I don't really have much issue with Custom Lineage as a game element.
Awesome. That seems like an appropriate use. Not this "raised by" stuff usually used to attempt back justification of mechanical optimization with the the new so-called "optional" racial rules, especially the pallete swapping version.

Skrum

2022-02-20, 11:23 AM

As was pointed out vigorously during the preview/release by many folks, it could easily actually decrease options. Not increase them.

And anecdotally from what I hear, that is what's been happening.

Awesome. That seems like an appropriate use. Not this "raised by" stuff usually used to attempt back justification of mechanical optimization with the the new so-called "optional" racial rules, especially the pallete swapping version.

Would it make you happier if everyone played variant human? Because that seems like less options to me.

*And that's even assuming the bonus feat is strictly better. It's very strong, but some racial abilities are very strong too.

Amnestic

2022-02-20, 11:35 AM

As was pointed out vigorously during the preview/release by many folks, it could easily actually decrease options. Not increase them.

And anecdotally from what I hear, that is what's been happening.

Okay well anecdotally very few people I know have been interested in custom lineage and instead prefer the existing races so now what?

Tanarii

2022-02-20, 11:45 AM

Okay well anecdotally very few people I know have been interested in custom lineage and instead prefer the existing races so now what?
We have a "how many AL DMs and players we talk to on a regular basis" measuring contest?

Anecdotes are anecdotes, they are inherently YMMV. :smallamused:

Would it make you happier if everyone played variant human? Because that seems like less options to me. Yes. That's the exact point that was made before custom variant was even released. It's just variant human on steroids, and since everyone will play it, it will result in less options.Given how popular variant human was before, it doesn't surprise me that custom lineage is so popular.

Personally, I was okay with variant humans being popular, in a way that I'm not okay with custom lineage being popular. Because I do in fact want humans to be the most common race at the table. I find the D&D race menagerie that seems to always result in official play jarring, especially once each edition's races from splat sourcebooks become approved.

But also personally, I wish they'd thought out a way to make standard humans dominant. Because feats are an optional rule.

Skrum

2022-02-20, 12:04 PM

Personally, I was okay with variant humans being popular, in a way that I'm not okay with custom lineage being popular. Because I do in fact want humans to be the most common race at the table. I find the D&D race menagerie that seems to always result in official play jarring, especially once each edition's races from splat sourcebooks become approved.

OK I can see that, especially if you're going for a more subdued world. I would agree that there's probably some level of connection between players using Rabbitfolk or Tortles and, uh, unserious RP.

But also personally, I wish they'd thought out a way to make standard humans dominant. Because feats are an optional rule.

That said, I really don't like idea of avoiding goofy characters by making one race that's "not goofy" mechanically superior. Game design-wise, it's not good.

Amechra

2022-02-20, 12:07 PM

Would it make you happier if everyone played variant human? Because that seems like less options to me.

The reason why people are more concerned about the Custom Lineage than they are about Variant Humans is that, from an optimization standpoint, getting a big bonus to your SAD stat is way better than getting a small bonus to a bunch of ability scores.

Personally, I dislike Custom Lineages because they're mechanically lazy and super-focused. I've also only ever seen them used as a way to play "more optimal" versions of various races, like a "Kobold" Artificer who got +3 Int, Expertise in Arcana, and Darkvision from their race. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No, but it lets people end up with overspecialized characters, and that's a bit lame.

stoutstien

2022-02-20, 12:07 PM

We have a "how many AL DMs and players we talk to on a regular basis" measuring contest?

Anecdotes are anecdotes, they are inherently YMMV. :smallamused:

Yes. That's the exact point that was made before custom variant was even released. It's just variant human on steroids, and since everyone will play it, it will result in less options.Given how popular variant human was before, it doesn't surprise me that custom lineage is so popular.

Personally, I was okay with variant humans being popular, in a way that I'm not okay with custom lineage being popular. Because I do in fact want humans to be the most common race at the table. I find the D&D race menagerie that seems to always result in official play jarring, especially once each edition's races from splat sourcebooks become approved.

But also personally, I wish they'd thought out a way to make standard humans dominant. Because feats are an optional rule.

Out of curiosity why do you care what race is dominant at your tables unless it's a setting thing and if that's the case why don't you just remove the races you don't want?

Skrum

2022-02-20, 12:16 PM

The reason why people are more concerned about the Custom Lineage than they are about Variant Humans is that, from an optimization standpoint, getting a big bonus to your SAD stat is way better than getting a small bonus to a bunch of ability scores.

Personally, I dislike Custom Lineages because they're mechanically lazy and super-focused. I've also only ever seen them used as a way to play "more optimal" versions of various races, like a "Kobold" Artificer who got +3 Int, Expertise in Arcana, and Darkvision from their race. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No, but it lets people end up with overspecialized characters, and that's a bit lame.

I can't disagree with that either. My defense in the other direction though is the benefits, while present, are small enough that they kind of come out in the wash over time. Op'ing a character what will go no higher than t2? Yes, variant human/custom lineage is the mechanically superior race for essentially any build. But it's not so strong as to make other things unplayable or anything close to that.

Big picture, I think it was a real mistake to put ASI's and feats against each other, and then make a race that gives a bonus feat. My preference would probably be to give characters a feat AND an ASI, and get rid of variant human/custom lineage all together.

Witty Username

2022-02-20, 12:40 PM

Banning custom lineage for 18 in primary stat at level 1 is cowardice. Playing custom lineage at the expense of other races, for the 18 at level 1, is foolishness. It is not a powerful option, many races end up superior due to 16 in a secondary stat and actual features other than darkvision.

Tanarii

2022-02-20, 12:54 PM

OK I can see that, especially if you're going for a more subdued world. I would agree that there's probably some level of connection between players using Rabbitfolk or Tortles and, uh, unserious RP.

Out of curiosity why do you care what race is dominant at your tables unless it's a setting thing and if that's the case why don't you just remove the races you don't want?I care because it makes official play less appealing. I mean, official play is basically the WoW of D&D, built around the same computerized-DM and pickup-play concepts, and drawing many of the same kinds of players. So maybe I'm holding it to too high a standard. Especially since folks who don't like the way it's set up to encourage TO over a coherent and persistent world is a great source of players.

That said, I really don't like idea of avoiding goofy characters by making one race that's "not goofy" mechanically superior. Game design-wise, it's not good.Why? I mean, players who don't care about TO over theme will play whatever appeals. But it's a lever the designers can pull to influence those that do. Even classic "not goofy" Elves, Dwarves and Halflings should be less powerful than humans in the base game. Although an optional DM-facing rule to put any race on par as the dominant race for their campaign world would probably be a must.

Clearly we need to bring back level limits, that'd be simplest. :smalltongue:

Amechra

2022-02-20, 01:03 PM

I kinda like the idea of making Standard Humans get +1 to all ability scores and an additional Background. Then again, I'm biased — in my home game where I kiboshed race-related ability score boosts, "they have an additional Background" was the perk I gave humans.

It's equivalent to giving them +2 skill proficiencies, +2 tools/languages, a ribbon, and a little extra starting stuff... in exchange for them being a little suboptimal for every class.

Waazraath

2022-02-20, 02:19 PM

So we're 2 campaigns in with Custom Lineage characters and I can't say I'd be thrilled about having them in anything else I'd be DMing or playing in the near future. Issues include:

General Power Creap
Characters that have max ability at level 4 (with a 1/2 feat kicker). Basically a really weird power curve.
Disperportional buff to SAD characters. Compared to the above example the MAD character is now further behind and will stay that way. The MAD character is going to be 16th level by the time they get 20s in 2 relevant abilities, and the SAD character has had the opportunity to get several feats. (I am aware of the optional rule to allow Mountain Dwarves to move ability modifiers, though I hardly think having one comparable 'race' is much of an improvement, even if our group gets around the thematic issues with this).

Your absolutely correct. For me, it's not even the power creep (well, a little), but the disregard that for earlier established norms. No 18's from level 1 with point buy or standard array was always the case: allowing it only for custom lineage makes no sense at all. But that does Tasha's in more cases, the 300ft darkvision of the Twilight Cleric is another such example. Silly, unneeded and adds nothing to the game.

TyGuy

2022-02-20, 02:24 PM

BerzerkerUnit

2022-02-20, 02:45 PM

Are you an 'Elf'
Are you an 'Orc'
Maybe you're a 'Human'

Doesn't matter. All Wizards start the game with at least 16 Int. That is, all Wizards are basically the same. All Clerics, regardless of species, have 16+ Wis, etc.
Your species has no impact on your class anymore.
The only thing that matters are your ability scores.

---

When the majority of your players at the table see one option as empirically stronger than any other choice (start with an 18 in your main stat, and a Feat, and Darkvision), and then, those players all start picking that option...All characters are the same. You might pretend that they're not. But they are.

If you want to remove species from your game; Telling your players about the mechanical advantages of playing 'Custom Lineage' is the way to do it.

{Scrubbed}

High Elf comes into play with darkvision, a cantrip that may retain utility well into high tier but can be a definite bump 1st-4th, +3 to Abilities, a few decent weapon proficiencies, and 2 very important resistances, one of which is supreme at low tier (sleep immune) and the other retains utility well into high tier (charm resist). Oh, and they long rest in shorter time and can stay alert during that rest.

There's no circumstance under which a single 18 at level 1st is comparable (especially considering it comes at the cost of a 2nd +3 ability bonus elsewhere). A general 5% increase in effectiveness of attacks and some checks and saves feels good, but just does not hold a candle to the wealth of options piled on that one brand of elf unless your DM's tool box for challenge begins and ends with trying to deplete HP.

Further, saying my Telekinetic product of a "human husbandry" experiment that looks like a human with glowing square orange irises in black sclera for eyes and white hair is "the same" as the 3ft, 8in "werepug" with "sharpened senses" replicated with the Observant feat bc we took the same Lineage option to customize is like saying the elf and dwarf characters are the same because they're written on paper.

That habit of players to feel bad when their preferred race/lineage/species was forced to underperform for 8 levels (the 8 most commonly played) if they didn't choose an optimal class for their stat ups wasn't the player's problem, it was the books'. Custom lineage helped but the real fix was Tasha's decoupling of stat bonus assignment.

The primary argument I've seen against this shift has been "it's all the same now" and "Custom lineage is teh besters" bc you can optimise into an 18 at 1st level. Neither of those things was true and both remain false. All those other options are still there and they are still used bc what they get outperforms a half feat you can still take a little later or makes another feat you'll take later even better. Custom lineage is new and fun and fits where the decades old existing options are still not codified. Mutant like the Witcher? Custom Lineage. Vatgrown small psionic bugperson? Custom lineage.

I don't need to pay $50-$60 bucks for another book that's going to give me monkey people and another breed of elf bc I have custom lineage. I'd like a book that gives me Thrikreen and Ooze folk. What's that? Those will be in the next book but I'll also get another elf and all the other races will have official "free stat boost" AND all their racial widgets (except some will be upgraded to playable -0.0 Genasi), sure, I'm down for that.

Apologies if my tone took off there, but the immensely myopic view presented (I acknowledge text isn't a perfect medium and your view may be more nuanced that the possibly abridged post to which I'm responding) really needs to be addressed whenever it appears bc it can become malignant. Here's how (Note, I've only altered your text but have not altered your logic, bold text is mine for emphasis):
{Scrubbed the quotation box}
Are you an 'human' that can perform a standing jump over 7 feet? You're not a human.
Are you a 'human' that doesn't have functioning legs? You're not a human.
Are you a 'human' that can't speak with your mouth? You're not a human.[/QUOTE]

stoutstien

2022-02-20, 03:17 PM

I think the biggest issue is simply the placement of the optional rule. No one assumes. Move the first couple pages from chapter one in Tasha's to chapter 4 and it's fine. It's still optional but no it's optional.

Kane0

2022-02-20, 03:29 PM

I think you're blaming the wrong problem - the fact the game designers put feats and ASI's in conflict means the advantage of being SAD is going to be that much more.

'Choose a feat' should never have been a racial trait, it should have replaced the racial stat increase just like they do for ASIs.
That way every race can be a feat race instead of Vuman/TCR being shoved on a pedestal and sacrificing all possible interesting features/flavor.

Townopolis

2022-02-20, 03:37 PM

'Choose a feat' should never have been a racial trait, it should have replaced the racial stat increase just like they do for ASIs.
That way every race can be a feat race instead of Vuman/TCR being shoved on a pedestal and sacrificing all possible interesting features/flavor.

This

Remove all racial stat adjustments
After assigning stats and chosing race, background, and class, everyone gets an ASI (swappable for feat) at chargen
Then everyone gets 1 skill proficiency upgraded to expertise (to replace the +1 most would also get)
Mountain Dwarf wizards can suck it

Pex

2022-02-20, 03:58 PM

I can't disagree with that either. My defense in the other direction though is the benefits, while present, are small enough that they kind of come out in the wash over time. Op'ing a character what will go no higher than t2? Yes, variant human/custom lineage is the mechanically superior race for essentially any build. But it's not so strong as to make other things unplayable or anything close to that.

Big picture, I think it was a real mistake to put ASI's and feats against each other, and then make a race that gives a bonus feat. My preference would probably be to give characters a feat AND an ASI, and get rid of variant human/custom lineage all together.

But then you need to give regular human something because +1 to all scores and nothing else is already bad, and this would just make it worse.

Psyren

2022-02-20, 04:03 PM

While i likely wont use it myself at an actual table, I like that Custom Lineage exists for a few reasons:

1) It gives an alternative official route for theoretical optimization exercises to get a feat or 18 at 1st level without being human. Sometimes people just want to push the boundaries of what a build can do!

2) It's a way to express races that either don't exist in D&D or that haven't been converted to 5e yet. Lesser Planetouched, Elans, Neanderthals, Astomoi, the possibilities are numerous and varied.

3) It's a way to express special, uncommon or mutated versions of existing races. Gray Elves, Jungle Gnomes, halfbloods like Muls etc.

While I wouldn't mind a more involved ancestry system this does the job in a pinch.

stoutstien

2022-02-20, 04:06 PM

Pex

2022-02-20, 04:07 PM

This

Remove all racial stat adjustments
After assigning stats and chosing race, background, and class, everyone gets an ASI (swappable for feat) at chargen
Then everyone gets 1 skill proficiency upgraded to expertise (to replace the +1 most would also get)
Mountain Dwarf wizards can suck it

What about poor human who would then only have +1 skill proficiency upgraded to expertise and absolutely nothing else while other races get, depending on race, dark vision, resistances, rerolls, bonus cantrip, etc.

Amechra

2022-02-20, 04:25 PM

But then you need to give regular human something because +1 to all scores and nothing else is already bad, and this would just make it worse.

To repeat myself from up-thread, just give humans a second background. If you're going to make humans jacks of all trades, might as well go all the way with it.

Townopolis

2022-02-20, 04:34 PM

What about poor human who would then only have +1 skill proficiency upgraded to expertise and absolutely nothing else while other races get, depending on race, dark vision, resistances, rerolls, bonus cantrip, etc.
I actually use Amechra's solution. I arrived at it by first deciding to retool half-elf, but the end result is the same.

Alternatively, you can give humans Magic Resistance as their one and only racial feature.

Kane0

2022-02-20, 05:57 PM

Aye. Of course feats themselves need a long look moving forward.
Agreed, with half feats first on the chopping block IMO.

To repeat myself from up-thread, just give humans a second background. If you're going to make humans jacks of all trades, might as well go all the way with it.

Ooh, i like it.

False God

2022-02-20, 06:17 PM

So we're 2 campaigns in with Custom Lineage characters and I can't say I'd be thrilled about having them in anything else I'd be DMing or playing in the near future. Issues include:

General Power Creap
Characters that have max ability at level 4 (with a 1/2 feat kicker). Basically a really weird power curve.
I'm fairly certain this has always been achievable with the right build choices. Feat-Human, Fighter, good rolls. So I'm not sure how much more busted "Custom Lineage" really made anything.

Disperportional buff to SAD characters. Compared to the above example the MAD character is now further behind and will stay that way. The MAD character is going to be 16th level by the time they get 20s in 2 relevant abilities, and the SAD character has had the opportunity to get several feats. (I am aware of the optional rule to allow Mountain Dwarves to move ability modifiers, though I hardly think having one comparable 'race' is much of an improvement, even if our group gets around the thematic issues with this).
SAD characters always see greater and easier benefits from general power bumps than MAD classes. This is a general D&D issue, and one that, IMO, Custom Lineage doesn't really have an impact on.

Amechra

2022-02-20, 06:26 PM

Gurgeh

2022-02-20, 06:35 PM

The_Jette

2022-02-20, 07:46 PM

Yes, that seems to be a fairly common pattern. I have never seen point-buy used - in any edition - outside of online play: and more specifically forum play-by-post games and AL. I think there's a much stronger current of fear of players trying to get one over the DM (or each other) in these environments, and consequently I can see them being more hostile to both power creep and rules-permissiveness.

The tables that I play at mostly use point buy, or standard array, simply because it ensures that everyone starts off at the same level. With rolling for your character, it's possible that one player can start out with really high scores, while another can start out with really low scores. And, honestly, I like the standard array of stats. It balances things out in a way that I rarely have seen during my time playing D&D, which has been a long time.

Pex

2022-02-20, 08:27 PM

I notice that a lot of the people who are going "having one race that can guarantee that you start with an 18 is no big deal" follow that up by saying something to the effect of "my table rolls for our stats".

So? There isn't anything wrong with having an 18 at first level in the first place. Having the 18 isn't the problem. (Maybe for the OP it is, but that's where I disagree. 18 at 1st level is fine.) The problem is everyone, figuratively speaking, using Custom Lineage because of it.

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-02-20, 08:35 PM

Your absolutely correct. For me, it's not even the power creep (well, a little), but the disregard that for earlier established norms. No 18's from level 1 with point buy or standard array was always the case: allowing it only for custom lineage makes no sense at all. But that does Tasha's in more cases, the 300ft darkvision of the Twilight Cleric is another such example. Silly, unneeded and adds nothing to the game.

Despite that I listed power creep first, that isn't really my main issue either. The disperportionate bump that some classes (that didn't need it) got is more the issue. Some MAD classes that already were playing catch up for much of the game, which when it was a +1 difference I was OK with. When that grows to +2 for some abilities at 4th level it's really noticeable in game play; the DM is having to adjust difficulty of encounters to give enemies higher ACs and saves, and other (edited: MAD) characters are clearly inferior.

We don't allow the new Clerics at our table, and you're right. Their inclusion would be a net loss as other options become obsolete.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-02-20, 09:31 PM

Despite that I listed power creep first, that isn't really my main issue either. The disperportionate bump that some classes (that didn't need it) got is more the issue. Some MAD classes that already were playing catch up for much of the game, which when it was a +1 difference I was OK with. When that grows to +2 for some abilities at 4th level it's really noticeable in game play; the DM is having to adjust difficulty of encounters to give enemies higher ACs and saves, and other (SAD) characters are clearly inferior.

We don't allow the new Clerics at our table, and you're right. Their inclusion would be a net loss as other options become obsolete.

I'm not really sure I understand the "MAD classes suffer" line of thought here, in the same way that a Custom Lineage character can gain a half feat to boost their primary stat a MAD class can put that half feat towards one of theirs, +2/+1/+1 is an appealing ability score increase line. So appealing in fact that Half Elves are generally considered top class among the Charisma races for having it.

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-02-20, 10:32 PM

I'm not really sure I understand the "MAD classes suffer" line of thought here, in the same way that a Custom Lineage character can gain a half feat to boost their primary stat a MAD class can put that half feat towards one of theirs, +2/+1/+1 is an appealing ability score increase line. So appealing in fact that Half Elves are generally considered top class among the Charisma races for having it.

I guess maybe the point of disagreement here is that MAD characters have a 'primary stat'. I'd argue that by definition they don't and that true MAD characters like Paladins have 2 stats that are roughly of equal importance. But anyway to answer your question:

By way of example pre-Custom Lineage (assuming point buy or array) every character was limited to 16/17 or +3 in their best stats at creation, so MAD and SAD characters were on level(ish) ground. Level 4 rolls around and the SAD character is able to go to +4 in applicable rolls, while the MAD character can only impact 1/2 of the rolls. At level 8 the SAD character can get to +5, while the MAD one at least has the option of bumping the second stat to +4. Several of our Paladins have done this, and never felt significantly behind.

With Custom Lineage the SAD character can hit +5 at level 4, while the MAD one is condemned to be stuck at +3 with 1/2 of the rolls. I've read in this thread that other characters 'catch up' with Custom Lineage, but in fact the MAD ones start behind and just get further behind. CL just exaserbates an issue that was already present.

GooeyChewie

2022-02-20, 10:45 PM

So? There isn't anything wrong with having an 18 at first level in the first place. Having the 18 isn't the problem. (Maybe for the OP it is, but that's where I disagree. 18 at 1st level is fine.) The problem is everyone, figuratively speaking, using Custom Lineage because of it.

In a way, you've answered your own question here. Starting with an 18 at level 1 isn't inherently a problem. And if you're playing rolled stats, it's not uncommon to start with an 18 (or higher) with any race. But if your table uses point buy or standard array, Custom Lineage is the only way to start with an 18. It's not surprising that those who see Custom Lineage as not terribly powerful tend to be players who roll for stats, because how you generate your ability scores makes a huge difference in how it plays out in-game.

Personally I don't think Custom Lineage has worked out all that well. In theory it should allow players to craft their own unique characters with rich histories. But in practice players who use it often go the other way around, starting at wanting the +2 plus feat and maybe add a paper-thin justification after the fact. I also think it was an odd choice to introduce the option of floating racial ASIs on the basis that players felt hamstrung by not being able to start with a +3 modifier rather than a +2 modifier, but in the same book introduced a way to start with a +4 modifier (assuming point buy or standard array). Overall, WotC had good intentions but the execution left something to be desired.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-02-20, 10:53 PM

With Custom Lineage the SAD character can hit +5 at level 4, while the MAD one is condemned to be stuck at +3 with 1/2 of the rolls. I've read in this thread that other characters 'catch up' with Custom Lineage, but in fact the MAD ones start behind and just get further behind. CL just exaserbates an issue that was already present.

Well, first of all to correct something, I misremembered Custom Lineage as having a +2/+1 before their feat choice.

That said, again, I'm still not understanding what you mean by "behind" in this aspect. A SAD character is focusing on only one ability score, so it makes more sense when comparing how far "behind" a MAD character is to just a single ability score. A SAD character can have a 20 in their primary stat and then they don't really care, a MAD character (we'll use a Monk for example) will have an 18 while still managing a 16 in their second stat and a 14 in Con.

This isn't an incredible disparity that will highlight how inneffective the character is for being so foolish as to choose a MAD class. Both classes are benefiting equally as far as feats are concerned.

I think a bigger concern, while ultimately still minor, is that the SAD character has the option to remain at an 18 and pick one of the traditional "OP" feats like GWM/SS or PAM. You're more likely to see impact from that at least than from them being able to push to a 20 score.

Personally I don't think Custom Lineage has worked out all that well. In theory it should allow players to craft their own unique characters with rich histories. But in practice players who use it often go the other way around, starting at wanting the +2 plus feat and maybe add a paper-thin justification after the fact. I also think it was an odd choice to introduce the option of floating racial ASIs on the basis that players felt hamstrung by not being able to start with a +3 modifier rather than a +2 modifier, but in the same book introduced a way to start with a +4 modifier (assuming point buy or standard array). Overall, WotC had good intentions but the execution left something to be desired.
In practice at our table it's always crafted a unique character even in the circumstances where it's being used for a +3 modifier. I think the idea that it's poor execution is player bias, not everyone is a munchkin and not everyone will use custom lineage to gain a +3 bonus.

Honestly, I just don't understand it. Of all the characters and groups I've run for since I entered the hobby my characters are the only humans. We've got Eladrin Bard, Half Elven Ranger, Centaur Paladin, Warforged Cleric, Aasimar Wizard, Minotaur Monk, Lizardfolk Druid, Changeling Rogue just to name a small recent handful. It's an incredibly diverse set of characters even including my handful of VHuman's. The diversity hasn't stopped since we adopted Tasha's either, if anything it's made me, the one who cares most about number go up, play something other than Vhuman or Custom Lineage.

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-02-20, 11:12 PM

Well, first of all to correct something, I misremembered Custom Lineage as having a +2/+1 before their feat choice.

That said, again, I'm still not understanding what you mean by "behind" in this aspect. A SAD character is focusing on only one ability score, so it makes more sense when comparing how far "behind" a MAD character is to just a single ability score. A SAD character can have a 20 in their primary stat and then they don't really care, a MAD character (we'll use a Monk for example) will have an 18 while still managing a 16 in their second stat and a 14 in Con.

This isn't an incredible disparity that will highlight how inneffective the character is for being so foolish as to choose a MAD class. Both classes are benefiting equally as far as feats are concerned.

I think a bigger concern, while ultimately still minor, is that the SAD character has the option to remain at an 18 and pick one of the traditional "OP" feats like GWM/SS or PAM. You're more likely to see impact from that at least than from them being able to push to a 20 score.

I'm not sure about the line regarding characters being foolish for being MAD. Does that mean you've already written them off? Regardless, my experience up until recently is that with good choices MAD builds can stay in touch with SAD ones. Post Custom Lineage the gap is more noticable.

I would argue that with bounded accuracy +2 is a significant difference, but you're correct that the Custom Lineage character doesn't need to go this route; they have options: Your last example is precisely what's happened in one game I'm in at the moment. We have a ranged Battlemaster who at level 4 had 18 Dex, Piercer, and SS. Admitedly this was compounded by Archery style (which is a topic for another thread), but the end result is that that this character moved well ahead of other characters, particularly a Paladin in the group.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-02-20, 11:22 PM

I'm not sure about the line regarding characters being foolish for being MAD. Does that mean you've already written them off? Regardless, my experience up until recently is that with good choices MAD builds can stay in touch with SAD ones. Post Custom Lineage the gap is more noticable.
The implication is that you're writing them off, suggesting that only SAD characters are benefitting from Custom Lineage here. It was hyberbole, even in the worst of times MAD characters have been more or less competitive with SAD ones of the same vein. I think of all the variables that would be making any character noticeably more effective than another their stat distribution is among the least impactful.

I would argue that with bounded accuracy +2 is a significant difference, but you're correct that the Custom Lineage character doesn't need to go this route; they have options:
It's not really a +2 though, MAD characters don't typically have two attack stats so their primary will still usually be Strength or Dex.

Your last example is precisely what's happened in one game I'm in at the moment. We have a ranged Battlemaster who at level 4 had 18 Dex, Piercer, and SS. Admitedly this was compounded by Archery style (which is a topic for another thread), but the end result is that that this character moved well ahead of other characters, particularly a Paladin in the group.
I'd be comfortable saying that this is highlighting the "Dex Ranged Martial is king" problem than any general character creation problem. If the combination of Archery and Sharpshooter wasn't so out of line I doubt this character would be substantially more effective than a similarly built one.

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-02-20, 11:38 PM

The implication is that you're writing them off, suggesting that only SAD characters are benefitting from Custom Lineage here. It was hyberbole, even in the worst of times MAD characters have been more or less competitive with SAD ones of the same vein. I think of all the variables that would be making any character noticeably more effective than another their stat distribution is among the least impactful.

It's not really a +2 though, MAD characters don't typically have two attack stats so their primary will still usually be Strength or Dex.

I'd be comfortable saying that this is highlighting the "Dex Ranged Martial is king" problem than any general character creation problem. If the combination of Archery and Sharpshooter wasn't so out of line I doubt this character would be substantially more effective than a similarly built one.

To restate something I said 2 posts ago, clearly some of the disagreement here is what an actual MAD character is. To me something approaching 50% of core roles are based on 2 different stats is MAD; I'd suggest a Paladin achieves this with Spells + Turn + Aura vs. Attack (+ maybe AC if Dex). In that case (besides darkvision) Custom Lineage absolutely does not help when you compare with VHuman (closest point of comparison) as you have to take from one ability to give to the other. Yes you can still get an 18 off the hop, but then you're down to 15 for the other ability.

Anyway, I can only say I'm noticing the creep vs. other characters in the 2 games I'm playing in at the moment. If you haven't, fair enough.

Witty Username

2022-02-20, 11:50 PM

Real quick, what are we meaning for SAD and MAD? Does 16 in a secondary qualify as MAD?

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-02-21, 12:04 AM

Real quick, what are we meaning for SAD and MAD? Does 16 in a secondary qualify as MAD?

I put my definition of a true MAD character in my last post: 2 stats of roughly equal importance for ongoing game mechanics, which to me the Paladin achieves. A Paladin with 18 attack stat is better than 16, as is the case for Chr.

I would not include a character that needs a 13 to multiclass but seldom uses the stat or 14 Dex to max benefit in med armor. A character can be created using point buy with this requirement and still get max benefit to main stat + Con if desired.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-02-21, 12:19 AM

I put my definition of a true MAD character in my last post: 2 stats of roughly equal importance for ongoing game mechanics, which to me the Paladin achieves. A Paladin with 18 attack stat is better than 16, as is the case for Chr.

I would not include a character that needs a 13 to multiclass but seldom uses the stat or 14 Dex to max benefit in med armor. A character can be created using point buy with this requirement and still get max benefit to main stat + Con if desired.

I wouldn't qualify most Paladin subclasses as MAD, though a small handful are like Redemption and Conquest because they place a high focus on supporting the playstyle with spells rather than using them as smite fuel. A high charisma Paladin is nice but ultimately they function perfectly well with a 14. For example, a heavy armor Paladin who opts not to dump Dexterity and takes a hit in Charisma has a perfectly functional use for their spells that doesn't interact with their spell save DC whatsoever.

MAD is pretty particular to Monk and Barbarian in my opinion, martials who have a base class incentive to prioritize pushing at least two stats as high as possible and will actively suffer for building outside of that. A Monk is notoriously difficult to build in Point Buy, you'll almost always have at least two ability scores with a penalty (pick two of Strength, Intelligence and Charisma) or you take substantial hits to your overall effectiveness in AC, Ki save DC or your Maximum HP total.

MADness is also a much less significant issue with rolled stats.

f5anor

2022-02-21, 03:51 AM

So we're 2 campaigns in with Custom Lineage characters and I can't say I'd be thrilled about having them in anything else I'd be DMing or playing in the near future. Issues include: General Power Creap

I am also unhappy with Custom Lineage, it is part of a very worrying trend established by the designers.

In general 5e suffers from many instances of specific abilities being so obviously superior to others that they become unavoidable and can start to resemble a tax of sorts, for players who are looking to optimize. In case you are interested more in this line of reasoning, a good example is Treantmonks explanation for proposing to ban the Shield spell. Other examples are PAM, CBE, SS, etc. not to mention the near ubiquitous single level Hexblade dip.

In my view Custom Lineage is one more step towards this strange path of homogenization. It was not enough that almost everyone looking to optimize was going for VHuman, now you can be VHuman including Darkvision, thereby making it even harder to avoid this trap.

I see the following imbalances introduces by Custom Lineage:
The main benefit that various non-human races bring to the table is Darkvision. I do not consider most other ribbon features that races get, compelling enough from an optimization point of view (with few very specific exceptions). Darkvision is now included in Custom Lineage, which means that you remove the main blanket reason for going non-VHuman.
Race specific feats and subclasses are not eligible even if you chose your "custom" lineage to be of the corresponding race. Examples are of course Elven Accuracy, Dragon Fear, etc. This means that in order to get Elven Accuracy you loose a free feat, therefore you actually have to pay two feats instead of one, the racial feat plus the lost free feat from Custom Lineage.

This whole arrangement is quite illogical to me. Therefore propose the following alternative.

Most races will give you a +2 and a +1 to your abilities, while Custom Lineage will give you only +2 and a free feat.

I therefore give players the option to select to get only +2 on their abilities when selecting any race (not human), and in place of the lost +1 select instead to get a free feat.

These races are all fully compatible with their racial feats, since they are not "Custom".

I believe this nicely solves the issue, since it makes both VHuman and "Custom Lineage" unattractive, while opens up for the option to give a free feat to every race, thereby making all races a viable alternative.

I do not understand why "Custom Lineage" was not implemented like this in the first place.

diplomancer

2022-02-21, 04:17 AM

I am also unhappy with Custom Lineage, it is part of a very worrying trend established by the designers.

In general 5e suffers from many instances of specific abilities being so obviously superior to others that they become unavoidable and can start to resemble a tax of sorts, for players who are looking to optimize. In case you are interested more in this line of reasoning, a good example is Treantmonks explanation for proposing to ban the Shield spell. Other examples are PAM, CBE, SS, etc. not to mention the near ubiquitous single level Hexblade dip.

In my view Custom Lineage is one more step towards this strange path of homogenization. It was not enough that almost everyone looking to optimize was going for VHuman, now you can be VHuman including Darkvision, thereby making it even harder to avoid this trap.

I see the following imbalances introduces by Custom Lineage:
The main benefit that various non-human races bring to the table is Darkvision. I do not consider most other ribbon features that races get, compelling enough from an optimization point of view (with few very specific exceptions). Darkvision is now included in Custom Lineage, which means that you remove the main blanket reason for going non-VHuman.
Race specific feats and subclasses are not eligible even if you chose your "custom" lineage to be of the corresponding race. Examples are of course Elven Accuracy, Dragon Fear, etc. This means that in order to get Elven Accuracy you loose a free feat, therefore you actually have to pay two feats instead of one, the racial feat plus the lost free feat from Custom Lineage.

This whole arrangement is quite illogical to me. Therefore propose the following alternative.

Most races will give you a +2 and a +1 to your abilities, while Custom Lineage will give you only +2 and a free feat.

I therefore give players the option to select to get only +2 on their abilities when selecting any race (not human), and in place of the lost +1 select instead to get a free feat.

These races are all fully compatible with their racial feats, since they are not "Custom".

I believe this nicely solves the issue, since it makes both VHuman and "Custom Lineage" unattractive, while opens up for the option to give a free feat to every race, thereby making all races a viable alternative.

I do not understand why "Custom Lineage" was not implemented like this in the first place.

The idea is good, but it does have a problem, at least for those who like playing Humans; it makes even a V. Human a strictly inferior option. Maybe it would be best to have the Race give 2 ability points, not just one, for a feat. So a High Elf could be +2Dex, +1 Int, or +1 Dex and a Feat, or +1 Int and a Feat. It also balances with the regular level-based ASI's, where you can exchange 2 ability points for a feat. Main problem with this is that Half-Elves are now strictly superior to Humans for all builds, but that's at least an improvement over every single race being superior to Humans.

f5anor

2022-02-21, 06:48 AM

The idea is good, but it does have a problem, at least for those who like playing Humans; it makes even a V. Human a strictly inferior option. Maybe it would be best to have the Race give 2 ability points, not just one, for a feat. So a High Elf could be +2Dex, +1 Int, or +1 Dex and a Feat, or +1 Int and a Feat. It also balances with the regular level-based ASI's, where you can exchange 2 ability points for a feat. Main problem with this is that Half-Elves are now strictly superior to Humans for all builds, but that's at least an improvement over every single race being superior to Humans.

Hi, I am not sure this is correct.

Optimizers that where going for VHuman for the free feat, can now can play "Custom Lineage" which is essentially VHuman++ (including Darkvision). You can always declare that your "Custom Lineage" looks/acts basically human.

For players that are looking to play humans and are not interested in the free feat, let me remind you that there is always the vanilla human, without a free feat and 6x+1 to abilities.

Regarding the few races that diverge e.g. +2,+1,+1 for Half Elf, or +2, +2 for Mountain Dwarf, this is indeed a problem, but it seems it was a wanted aberration in the first place.

Cheesegear

2022-02-21, 07:12 AM

I therefore give players the option to select to get only +2 on their abilities when selecting any race (not human), and in place of the lost +1 select instead to get a free feat.

As always any floating bonus to +stats at character creation is still meaningless to me while classes don't use all abilities equally.

All floating ASIs on a Wizard will go towards Int. Always.

My Custom Wizard will have +2 Int.
Your Custom Wizard will have +2 Int.
The other guy's Custom Wizard will have +2 Int.
The girl who's new to the game will be told by one of the guys that her Custom Wizard should also have +2 Int.

It doesn't matter what your Background and/or Backstory is, it doesn't matter how you physically or narratively want to 'represent' your Species. If you are playing a Wizard, you will have +2 Int.

Floating ASIs don't mean anything and need to be removed from the game.

This is a great example for the other thread; You can choose anything you want...But you're all going to choose the same thing. Greater choice means less variance. Perfect example.

f5anor

2022-02-21, 07:44 AM

As always any floating bonus to +stats at character creation is still meaningless to me while classes don't use all abilities equally.

All floating ASIs on a Wizard will go towards Int. Always.

I am not sure this is always correct, there are plenty of examples of multi-class builds that are pretty MAD and where the allocation of extra ability points does not match the class selection.

Also, its clearly not the case if you are not trying to optimize, or are optimizing is a way that is not aligned with the class stereotype, e.g. a Bard grappler.

It is of course correct when you want to build Gandalf as a Wizard.

GooeyChewie

2022-02-21, 09:29 AM

In practice at our table it's always crafted a unique character even in the circumstances where it's being used for a +3 modifier. I think the idea that it's poor execution is player bias, not everyone is a munchkin and not everyone will use custom lineage to gain a +3 bonus.
I’m not saying that choosing Custom Lineage necessarily makes a player a munchkin. What I’m saying is that when I’ve seen players consider Custom Lineage, it’s generally been as a slightly more variant V.human rather than as a true customization.

I would be very interested to hear what unique lineages your players have created.

Honestly, I just don't understand it. Of all the characters and groups I've run for since I entered the hobby my characters are the only humans. We've got Eladrin Bard, Half Elven Ranger, Centaur Paladin, Warforged Cleric, Aasimar Wizard, Minotaur Monk, Lizardfolk Druid, Changeling Rogue just to name a small recent handful. It's an incredibly diverse set of characters even including my handful of VHuman's. The diversity hasn't stopped since we adopted Tasha's either, if anything it's made me, the one who cares most about number go up, play something other than Vhuman or Custom Lineage.

I’m not sure I understand your point here. I’m glad your table has a diversity of characters. I’m glad you are finding that floating ASIs are allowing more character concepts at your tables. None of that makes it any less weird that WotC both implemented a change on the basis of starting with a +3 being so much more powerful than starting with a +2 while at the same time adding an option to start with a +4. It just sent mixed messages.

Sception

2022-02-21, 11:02 AM

I like custom lineage enough as a quick and dirty way to homebrew an unusual character origin outside of the officially described race & heritage options, but yeah, I don't like the potential +3 to a single stat in point buy / standard array contexts, and in my home games the custom lineage option would come with a house rule barring the races +2 from stacking with the +1 provided by a starting half feat should they choose to take one.

Fortunately hasn't come up for me yet in practice yet, though.

I do admit to this being a semi-hypocritical take, though, as I did once run a changeling with a starting 18 charisma back before Tasha's when you were explicitly allowed to stack their floating +1 stat with their static +2 charisma. The end result didn't break the campaign I played it in outright, but it did feel... off compared to other characters I've played.

Melphizard

2022-02-21, 12:09 PM

I typically run my tables point-buy for it's fair and I've never had any complaints about stats. Removes bitterness and anger that could breed depending on how people roll from the equation. So far, I've made characters and seen characters typically used for these reasons:

1. To create a race that hasn't been in books or UA - My example for this is a custom lineage star elf that I'd made around a year ago. He was a cleric who had Fey touched because he was born and raised in the Fey Wild by fey creatures, giving him the fey lost background. Albeit, when the UA version of star elf did come out, I swapped to that.

2. Human but better - My example for this is a player character who was a custom lineage (human) artificer. He was a spy for the ruler of a kingdom and custom lineage gave his character darkvision, explained by the fact he'd worked in the night long enough to be able to see it better.

Aside from that I haven't seen it used to make official races (aside from human) but with an 18 in the stat. Many do get that 18 but the core character is built around other concepts.

Sandeman

2022-02-21, 12:50 PM

I like Custom Lineage.
For example, I have a human wizard that has some fey blood in the family. Custom Lineage fits perfectly with being able to get Darkvision. And starting with 18 in Int is not overpowered in my opinion.

Pex

2022-02-21, 12:54 PM

I am also unhappy with Custom Lineage, it is part of a very worrying trend established by the designers.

In general 5e suffers from many instances of specific abilities being so obviously superior to others that they become unavoidable and can start to resemble a tax of sorts, for players who are looking to optimize. In case you are interested more in this line of reasoning, a good example is Treantmonks explanation for proposing to ban the Shield spell. Other examples are PAM, CBE, SS, etc. not to mention the near ubiquitous single level Hexblade dip.

In my view Custom Lineage is one more step towards this strange path of homogenization. It was not enough that almost everyone looking to optimize was going for VHuman, now you can be VHuman including Darkvision, thereby making it even harder to avoid this trap.

I see the following imbalances introduces by Custom Lineage:
The main benefit that various non-human races bring to the table is Darkvision. I do not consider most other ribbon features that races get, compelling enough from an optimization point of view (with few very specific exceptions). Darkvision is now included in Custom Lineage, which means that you remove the main blanket reason for going non-VHuman.
Race specific feats and subclasses are not eligible even if you chose your "custom" lineage to be of the corresponding race. Examples are of course Elven Accuracy, Dragon Fear, etc. This means that in order to get Elven Accuracy you loose a free feat, therefore you actually have to pay two feats instead of one, the racial feat plus the lost free feat from Custom Lineage.

This whole arrangement is quite illogical to me. Therefore propose the following alternative.

Most races will give you a +2 and a +1 to your abilities, while Custom Lineage will give you only +2 and a free feat.

I therefore give players the option to select to get only +2 on their abilities when selecting any race (not human), and in place of the lost +1 select instead to get a free feat.

These races are all fully compatible with their racial feats, since they are not "Custom".

I believe this nicely solves the issue, since it makes both VHuman and "Custom Lineage" unattractive, while opens up for the option to give a free feat to every race, thereby making all races a viable alternative.

I do not understand why "Custom Lineage" was not implemented like this in the first place.

All you did was just make human and variant human suck, replacing one problem with another. +2 and a feat is better than 6 +1s when 3 or 4 of those +1s won't mean anything special for a class. It's even with +1/+1 and a feat, but everyone getting a feat and their racial abilities means variant human sucks in comparison.

Still, half-elves are the new uber with +2, +1, feat
Where does that leave mountain dwarves? +2/+2 no feat, +2/+1 feat or +2 and a feat

Sandeman

2022-02-21, 01:23 PM

All you did was just make human and variant human suck, replacing one problem with another. +2 and a feat is better than 6 +1s whe 3 or 4 of those +1s won't mean anything special for a class. It's even with +1/+1 and a feat, but everyone getting a feat and their racial abilities means variant human sucks in comparison.

Still, half-elves are the new uber with +2, +1, feat
Where does that leave mountain dwarves? +2/+2 no feat, +2/+1 feat or +2 and a feat

Half-elves dont get a feat.
Or is it something new I have missed?

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-02-21, 01:55 PM

At first banning the stacking of the 1/2 feat with the attribute raised through Custom seems better... and it is for levels 1-3. If the character takes one of the big hitters like SS at first level, you're back where you started at 4th.

To those who don't think Custom Lineage is an issue as written, let's change the question: Why should it exist as is? What does it bring to the table? I grant that you can add some interesting fluff for a race that is beyond the regular options, but could this not be done without mechanically surpassing other options in the character's core abilities? For example, +1 to one stat, a feat, darkvision, a skill/ tool proficiency, and a language.

diplomancer

2022-02-21, 02:03 PM

Half-elves dont get a feat.
Or is it something new I have missed?

He was talking about F5anor's proposed change. Which, though I disagree with, did give me an idea.

Players at character creation have 2 options:
"Regular races", as written;
"Custom races", a Feat, a +1 to any score, and a Race's "regular kit", without its ASIs. This also applies to Mountain Dwarves and Half-Elves.

This way players get more flexibility on Racial choices, but without obsoleting any race.

JNAProductions

2022-02-21, 02:07 PM

Custom lineage is a bow to the powergamers and optimizers who now gets to choose which racial features they want for the SAD/MAD class they want to play without giving up anything for the opportunity.
"but I WANNA PLAY A GOLIATH WIZARD!!!"

Effectively, their race is a costume worn by a human with a special effects department. I loved the fact that there was no way to get my halfling wizard to 16 at ist level. So he didn't finish in the top of his class at wizard school, exactly. Buy I was playing Bill Murray the divination wizard, so it was all good. I messed with other peoples rolls instead of relying on mine. His limitations made up the character I got to play.

I'm used to not getting my way all the time. Apparently WotC spoils the kids then sends them to the DM who has to be the bad guy and say, "no."

If you don’t like Custom Lineage, don’t play it, and don’t include it in games you DM.

{scrubbed}

5eNeedsDarksun

2022-02-21, 03:17 PM

He was talking about F5anor's proposed change. Which, though I disagree with, did give me an idea.

Players at character creation have 2 options:
"Regular races", as written;
"Custom races", a Feat, a +1 to any score, and a Race's "regular kit", without its ASIs. This also applies to Mountain Dwarves and Half-Elves.

This way players get more flexibility on Racial choices, but without obsoleting any race.

At first glance I think I like this. VHuman doesn't end up being the odd duck and players have the option to add a feat in a way that is balanced.

Witty Username

2022-02-21, 03:17 PM

Custom lineage is a bow to the powergamers and optimizers who now gets to choose which racial features they want for the SAD/MAD class they want to play without giving up anything for the opportunity.
"but I WANNA PLAY A GOLIATH WIZARD!!!"

Effectively, their race is a costume worn by a human with a special effects department. I loved the fact that there was no way to get my halfling wizard to 16 at ist level. So he didn't finish in the top of his class at wizard school, exactly. Buy I was playing Bill Murray the divination wizard, so it was all good. I messed with other peoples rolls instead of relying on mine. His limitations made up the character I got to play.

I'm used to not getting my way all the time. Apparently WotC spoils the kids then sends them to the DM who has to be the bad guy and say, "no."

This is a bit to unpack.
First, you are not prevented from playing your character or making it, no one is stopping you from making an Int 8 wizard much less 14.
Second, Custom lineage isn't actually as strong as people claim, and 18 starting stat comes with real tradoffs, like the inability to have a 16 in a secondary stat.

f5anor

2022-02-21, 04:39 PM

He was talking about F5anor's proposed change. Which, though I disagree with, did give me an idea.

Players at character creation have 2 options:
"Regular races", as written;
"Custom races", a Feat, a +1 to any score, and a Race's "regular kit", without its ASIs. This also applies to Mountain Dwarves and Half-Elves.

This way players get more flexibility on Racial choices, but without obsoleting any race.

I am very glad my proposal inspired you!

Can you please clarify? the alternative proposal is to give all races a +1 and a feat, instead of giving everyone a +2 and a feat?

Is this not quite underpowered compared to Custom Lineage or even VHuman?

greenstone

2022-02-21, 04:56 PM

I don't like custom lineage for the same reason I don't like variant human - I feel too many people have feats.

Feats, to me, are something cool and special that a player can take, giving up something valuable to get them. Not something everyone "just has".

But that's just me.

diplomancer

2022-02-21, 04:57 PM

I am very glad my proposal inspired you!

Can you please clarify? the alternative proposal is to give all races a +1 and a feat, instead of giving everyone a +2 and a feat?

Is this not quite underpowered compared to Custom Lineage or even VHuman?

Well, they're still getting their full racial kit, so I wouldn't say they're underpowered. Worse for some builds than for others,of course, but I believe that's how things should be. Compare a Half-elf with a V. Human; Human has a +1 ASI; Half-Elf has Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, one extra skill, and one extra language. I definitely wouldn't call that underpowered. A Mountain Dwarf Wizard can start the game with 16 Int, 16 Con (Res: Con as a feat), and Medium Armour Proficiency. Underpowered?

Your initial proposal, as I've said before, simply eliminates Humans. And since it allows an exchange of a +1 for a full feat, it's naturally unbalanced with the game's assumptions (i.e, that a feat is worth +2).

Gurgeh

2022-02-21, 05:30 PM

f5anor

2022-02-21, 05:43 PM

Well, they're still getting their full racial kit, so I wouldn't say they're underpowered. Worse for some builds than for others,of course, but I believe that's how things should be. Compare a Half-elf with a V. Human; Human has a +1 ASI; Half-Elf has Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, one extra skill, and one extra language. I definitely wouldn't call that underpowered. A Mountain Dwarf Wizard can start the game with 16 Int, 16 Con (Res: Con as a feat), and Medium Armour Proficiency. Underpowered?

Your initial proposal, as I've said before, simply eliminates Humans. And since it allows an exchange of a +1 for a full feat, it's naturally unbalanced with the game's assumptions (i.e, that a feat is worth +2).

I see where you are coming from, in my view the „racial kit“ is mostly ribbon features, some are indeed useful, but none are worth a half feat. Most racial features are only useable once a day anyway, Even if some of them would be conceivably useful, this frequency greatly reduces their applicability.

I get the point regarding a +1 corresponding to half an ASI, but I don’t see that the „racial kit“ amounts to the remaining half ASI. The most significant non-human trait is Darkvision, and this is included in Custom Lineage. Moreover some really interesting races don’t get it at all.

For my part, if Custom Lineage is supposed to be balanced with a +2, Darkvision and a free feat, then all races should get a +2 their „racial kit“ and a free feat. Anything else makes Custom Lineage unbalanced.

I don’t see how this underpowers humans, they can still be VHuman with a +1, +1 (some would argue its even better) and a free feat. Humans are not supposed to have Darkvision after all.

Half Elves and Mountain Dwarves are of course an issue, I suggest going for +2 and a free feat as well if you are uncomfortable with them getting a +1 more than others. Not sure why they were so privileged to beginn with in the vanilla rules.

Tanarii

2022-02-21, 05:55 PM

Half Elves and Mountain Dwarves are of course an issue, I suggest going for +2 and a free feat as well if you are uncomfortable with them getting a +1 more than others. Not sure why they were so privileged to beginn with in the vanilla rules.
Tradition.

Gurgeh

2022-02-21, 06:17 PM

What tradition? Half-elves were terrible in 3.5; no ability score modifiers at all, a very limited immunity to sleep spells, low-light vision, and paltry bonuses to a very narrow range of skills. The TSR era was less clear-cut, but they never offered drastic improvements on elves or humans. I can't speak for 4e; maybe they got roided out then.
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Pompey.png Basically, it's just like being human, only instead of getting to choose a feat, we all got the same crappy skill and save bonuses. Oh, and instead of getting a ton of extra skill points, we get... low-light vision.

Mountain Dwarves weren't bad in the past but they were decidedly anodyne; in 3.5 they were mechanically identical to hill dwarves. Not weak by any means, but equally no better than the "default" dwarf.

Leon

2022-02-21, 06:28 PM

stoutstien

2022-02-21, 06:32 PM

May as well remove all other races and have the only choice to play a flying green octagon with a drop down menu of Pick X powerful bonus and stat allocation to best suit class, because thats where this is heading.

Sky not fallen yet. The updated races just recently released are very nice for a lot of different thematic and crunchy concepts that give both custom lineage and the PHB powerhouses a run for their money.

Gurgeh

2022-02-21, 06:40 PM

Yes, I strongly recommend checking LudicSavant's writeup on this very forum for the MotM changes. Big on flavour, in many cases big on power (hello goblinoids! hello kobolds! hello eladrin and shadar-kai!).

At this point I don't think I'd even put custom lineage in the top half of playable race options.

Kane0

2022-02-21, 08:52 PM

I am very glad my proposal inspired you!

Can you please clarify? the alternative proposal is to give all races a +1 and a feat, instead of giving everyone a +2 and a feat?

Is this not quite underpowered compared to Custom Lineage or even VHuman?

'Choose a feat' should never have been a racial trait, it should have replaced the racial stat increase just like they do for ASIs.
That way every race can be a feat race instead of Vuman/TCR being shoved on a pedestal and sacrificing all possible interesting features/flavor.

Give every race the option to trade their stat bonuses for a feat and the reason for Vuman and TCR to exist disappear.

diplomancer

2022-02-22, 12:30 AM

A nerfed half-elf is perhaps not the best comparison for this change since half-elves are one of the most overtuned races in print. You're functionally saying "-2 cha, -1 any stat, get a feat in exchange". That is almost always going to be a bad trade.

I chose Half-Elf (and Mountain Dwarf) as examples because it's the two races that were losing the most, exactly to show that they were still comparable to a V. Human. All the other races are not losing a +2,+1, only a +2. And exchanging a +2 for a feat is what you do every time you take a feat when your level increases.

I see where you are coming from, in my view the „racial kit“ is mostly ribbon features, some are indeed useful, but none are worth a half feat. Most racial features are only useable once a day anyway, Even if some of them would be conceivably useful, this frequency greatly reduces their applicability.

I get the point regarding a +1 corresponding to half an ASI, but I don’t see that the „racial kit“ amounts to the remaining half ASI. The most significant non-human trait is Darkvision, and this is included in Custom Lineage. Moreover some really interesting races don’t get it at all.

For my part, if Custom Lineage is supposed to be balanced with a +2, Darkvision and a free feat, then all races should get a +2 their „racial kit“ and a free feat. Anything else makes Custom Lineage unbalanced.

I don’t see how this underpowers humans, they can still be VHuman with a +1, +1 (some would argue its even better) and a free feat. Humans are not supposed to have Darkvision after all.

Half Elves and Mountain Dwarves are of course an issue, I suggest going for +2 and a free feat as well if you are uncomfortable with them getting a +1 more than others. Not sure why they were so privileged to beginn with in the vanilla rules.

I believe we just disagree about the power of the different racial kits. Looking just at the PHB races, I'd say that, apart from Dragonborn, all the others get features that are definitely comparable to +1 and a skill.

I also think that, since we're talking about a replacement for custom lineage, which is bland and overpowered, we shouldn't balance it against custom lineage, but against the original option that had feats, i.e, the V. Human. Custom lineage should be just banned. It's notable that your proposed change is more powerful than Custom Lineage, which means that those who don't get it (i.e, Humans) become simply a terrible race. Even PHB Dragonborns would be better than humans! You'd have to bring back level limits and class restrictions to convince anyone to play a human :p

Give every race the option to trade their stat bonuses for a feat and the reason for Vuman and TCR to exist disappear.

Heh, and others think that having +1,+1 and a skill beats having +1 and the Racial kits.

Which suggests to me that this is in fact balanced. V. Humans will probably be preferred by more MAD characters, since they can start with two 16s and a full feat, while other races will start either with just one 16 and a full feat, which is not a big deal if you're SAD, or two 16s and a half-feat (though there are plenty of very good half-feats; some of them, like Resilient-Con for casters, are almost feat taxes)

Gurgeh

2022-02-22, 12:53 AM

I chose Half-Elf (and Mountain Dwarf) as examples because it's the two races that were losing the most, exactly to show that they were still comparable to a V. Human
To me, this is not an argument in favour of your changes; it is an argument against the Half-Elf and Mountain Dwarf. A matter of perspective, perhaps.

diplomancer

2022-02-22, 01:06 AM

To me, this is not an argument in favour of your changes; it is an argument against the Half-Elf and Mountain Dwarf. A matter of perspective, perhaps.

Ok, let's use a Stout Halfling instead. Do you think that Poison resistance (VERY common damage type), Lucky, Brave, and Nimble are comparable to a +1 and a Skill? I believe they are. Or a Tiefling; Darkvision, Fire Resistance, and a choice between several different groups of a Cantrip, a 1st level spell, and a 2nd level spell. Comparable?

It will be better for some builds but not for others. And that's how it should be (instead of what it was before... ALL class guides had V. Humans as a top choice)

Silpharon

2022-02-22, 01:09 AM

Banning custom lineage for 18 in primary stat at level 1 is cowardice. Playing custom lineage at the expense of other races, for the 18 at level 1, is foolishness.
Well said, Witty! I started my last campaign as Custom Lineage trying to make a Half Elf Eladrin (Fey Touched feat to give it flavor), but it just felt so hollow. I talked to the DM after the first session, and we swapped it out with a homebrewed one (which was very easy given the Half Elf variant examples). I lost a point in my SAD score, but it was well worth it to get the rest of the Half Elf flair.

Did WotC ever explain why they didn't give CL "any two unique +1" like VHuman? Seems like that would have been just fine, and in-line with VHuman in effectiveness.

Gurgeh

2022-02-22, 01:27 AM

Ok, let's use a Stout Halfling instead. Do you think that Poison resistance (VERY common damage type), Lucky, Brave, and Nimble are comparable to a +1 and a Skill? I believe they are. Or a Tiefling; Darkvision, Fire Resistance, and a choice between several different groups of a Cantrip, a 1st level spell, and a 2nd level spell. Comparable?

It will be better for some builds but not for others. And that's how it should be (instead of what it was before... ALL class guides had V. Humans as a top choice)
I am not clear as to your comparison - are you setting the PHB Stout Halfling against the PHB Half-Elf, the extant Custom Lineage rules, or your own suggested changes? I can't easily back-construct something that gets "+1 and a skill" added to what you've left on the Stout Halfling chassis (+2 dex, +1 con, small size, 25ft movement speed)

I also don't agree that Variant Humans were an overwhelmingly common recommendation; they were fine, but were only very rarely the best choice, and even when they were the best choice it was because a build wanted access to an over-centralising feat right away and the player didn't want to wait until fourth-level.

diplomancer

2022-02-22, 01:39 AM

I am not clear as to your comparison - are you setting the PHB Stout Halfling against the PHB Half-Elf, the extant Custom Lineage rules, or your own suggested changes? I can't easily back-construct something that gets "+1 and a skill" added to what you've left on the Stout Halfling chassis (+2 dex, +1 con, small size, 25ft movement speed)

I also don't agree that Variant Humans were an overwhelmingly common recommendation; they were fine, but were only very rarely the best choice, and even when they were the best choice it was because a build wanted access to an over-centralising feat right away and the player didn't want to wait until fourth-level.

So, to recap. The proposed change is that ALL races, except Humans, get a choice between:
1- their regular features, including their (fixed) ASIs, whether they come from Race or Subrace, or;
2- their regular features without their ASIs, with a floating +1 * and a feat instead to compensate. This applies even to races that get more ASIs, like Half-Elves and Mountain Dwarves

And to check whether this change is balanced, I'm comparing the end result to a V. Human, which was not only a powerful choice, but it's also the one race that hasn't been given this option. To me, it looks pretty well balanced. You could call option number 2 the "Variant" option of each race.

*I'm not sure here whether it's best to make it a floating +1 or to require that it be one of your races' original ASIs. If your original race did have a floating +1, like a Half-Elf, you'd get to keep that option, i.e he'd not be locked into a +1 Cha. Different DMs will feel differently about it, I think I'd just let it be floating. Anyhow, because now all races have direct access to feats, you could still start with a 16 in your prime (one of the main complaints about pre-Tasha's fixed ASIs), just by choosing an appropriate half-feat.

Gurgeh

2022-02-22, 02:01 AM

Kane0

2022-02-22, 02:18 AM

Thats largely why i proposed throwing all your racial stat boosts in, which would be +2 and +1 for most but human might warrant some special treatment so it doesnt lose all six +1s

diplomancer

2022-02-22, 02:18 AM

Okay, that makes it clearer - and my surface-level reading is that this is an absolutely massive power boost for most characters, and it's going to leave humans in the dust. A feat is almost always going to give you more mileage than a +2 ASI unless you play point buy and also invest your stats to be extremely MAD (a point-buy character that just plumps for a 16 in their primary and/or gets a second 16 with a half-feat will get by just fine, and someone using rolled stats isn't necessarily so starved to hit benchmarks because stats average higher across the board and high stats in particular are more common).

In your specific example, for a Stout Halfling using your system? I would take that over a VHuman any day. I would take it over a VHuman even if it got no ability score improvements at all. I am having trouble thinking of any race that won't end up strictly better than a VHuman under this system.

Really? Won't you ever want to play, say, a Paladin with PAM that starts with 16 Str and Cha? Because V. Human is your only choice if you DO want that. Assuming point-buy (which these sorts of discussion always do, at least implicitly), V. Humans are still the only Race choice to start with 2 16s and a full feat. That is definitely worth it for some builds, but not for all. It's also the only race that can get 3 16s, which is also worth it in some cases if you don't mind going full Min-Max.

Yes, the other races get quite good. But they don't obsolete V. Humans. They might obsolete the original version of the race (in a similar way that V. Humans obsolete regular humans), at least in point-buy/standard array. I disagree with your point that a +2 is better than a feat in point-buy, by the way. Quite the contrary. Roll a 16 and a +2 is quite comparable to a feat, it's in point-buy with a 15 limit that a feat becomes better.

Even if the "old" versions get obsoleted (in point-buy, and even then not entirely; any MAD build that existed before, and for which the player, for some reason, did not want to play a V. Human, might still prefer the old version), game variety's still preserved, so I'm not sure that's a problem

Gurgeh

2022-02-22, 02:37 AM

Really? Won't you ever want to play, say, a Paladin with PAM that starts with 16 Str and Cha?
Honestly? Even this hyper-specific example that wants to get BIG BIG DPS while also having its secondary-stat cake... isn't that badly off if it just takes a 16/15 split. The paladin doesn't get that much mileage out of a big charisma modifier until sixth level (by which point they've already got an ASI under their belt). Most monks will be crying in the corner, but that's going to be the case even if they opt for VHuman in your system because the stats are getting deflated no matter what.

diplomancer

2022-02-22, 02:53 AM

Honestly? Even this hyper-specific example that wants to get BIG BIG DPS while also having its secondary-stat cake... isn't that badly off if it just takes a 16/15 split. The paladin doesn't get that much mileage out of a big charisma modifier until sixth level (by which point they've already got an ASI under their belt). Most monks will be crying in the corner, but that's going to be the case even if they opt for VHuman in your system because the stats are getting deflated no matter what.

Well, it's not "hyper-specific", plenty of builds would enjoy two 16s and a full feat, that was just an obvious one. And no, start with a 15, and you will always be behind someone that started with a 16, until very high levels. With a MAD build that wants to max 2 abilities, until level 19, in fact.

Do you want a Monk that starts with 16 Dex, Wis, and Con, or 16Dex, Wis and Mobile? V. Human is your option. A Ranger that wants to make good use of Tasha's Summons, so 16 Dex, 16 Wis, and Res (Con)? V. Human. For pretty much any MAD build, V. Human is still superior, or at the very least competitive.

Gurgeh

2022-02-22, 05:44 AM

Mm, I think we're really just caught in different paradigms at this point.

I don't assume point buy. I don't assume a player absolutely must be able to make progress on the primary-stat-progression treadmill (and that they're being punished if they're "falling behind" the other players). I don't think a reasonable degree of asymmetry between characters who are working together makes the game less entertaining and engaging (especially when full casters already bake so much asymmetry right into the system, regardless of where the ability scores are sitting).

For me, the most expedient way to approach ability scores is to just let people have good stats if they want to have them. Don't obsess over an expected progression from a meticulously thought-out point-buy spread, don't keep yourself awake at night wondering whether a player fudged some dice to produce their three seventeens, etc., etc. etc. Yes, this is fundamentally incompatible with drop-in, drop-out systems like AL - I don't consider that a problem.

I like feats because they're a nice way to give a character some mechanical differentiation from other characters of the same race and class, but I think that 5e's implementation of them is haphazard and sabotages itself by making them rare and giving them the hefty opportunity cost of holding back your treadmill stat.

With all that said - taken on its own merits, I don't think your proposed change will break anything. I do think that it will make feats rarer within the point-buy paradigm, even though it lets everyone start with one at first level, because the ability score deflation is going to significantly raise the opportunity cost of picking feats at higher levels.

diplomancer

2022-02-22, 06:50 AM

Mm, I think we're really just caught in different paradigms at this point.

I don't assume point buy. I don't assume a player absolutely must be able to make progress on the primary-stat-progression treadmill (and that they're being punished if they're "falling behind" the other players). I don't think a reasonable degree of asymmetry between characters who are working together makes the game less entertaining and engaging (especially when full casters already bake so much asymmetry right into the system, regardless of where the ability scores are sitting).

For me, the most expedient way to approach ability scores is to just let people have good stats if they want to have them. Don't obsess over an expected progression from a meticulously thought-out point-buy spread, don't keep yourself awake at night wondering whether a player fudged some dice to produce their three seventeens, etc., etc. etc. Yes, this is fundamentally with drop-in, drop-out systems like AL - I don't consider that a problem.

I like feats because they're a nice way to give a character some mechanical differentiation from other characters of the same race and class, but I think that 5e's implementation of them is haphazard and sabotages itself by making them rare and giving them the hefty opportunity cost of holding back your treadmill stat.

With all that said - taken on its own merits, I don't think your proposed change will break anything. I do think that it will make feats rarer within the point-buy paradigm, even though it lets everyone start with one at first level, because the ability score deflation is going to significantly raise the opportunity cost of picking feats at higher levels.

I actually agree with everything you've said (except the part that the suggestion would end up having fewer feats because of deflation; remember, they're optional, people can still choose the "vanilla" version of the races).

This started from F5anor's suggestion to replace Custom Lineage with just giving all Races except Humans the choice of replacing their +1 with a Feat. I thought that was considerably overtuned, but that replacing the +2 might be somewhat balanced, at least if you also nerfed Mountain Dwarves and Half-Elves. And I'm satisfied with it enough to use it in my home games, whether rolling, playing point-buy, or even choosing.

Gurgeh

2022-02-22, 06:58 AM

f5anor

2022-02-22, 07:06 AM

I think that's reasonable! Heck, I'd probably play with it if I were given the opportunity; the non-ASI components of a race are what decide whether or not I'm picking them instead of a human, so if I could have a double dose of flavour in exchange for being less of a stat stick then I think I'd enjoy it a lot.

I think this is a great improvement to Custom Lineage, regardless of whether you give a +1 or a +2.

This alternative preserves the individuality of all races and does not create a homogeneous soup as Custom Lineage does. At the same time it creates a level playing field by giving everyone a feat, and not just the privileged few.

Witty Username

2022-02-22, 11:07 PM

To those who don't think Custom Lineage is an issue as written, let's change the question: Why should it exist as is? What does it bring to the table? I grant that you can add some interesting fluff for a race that is beyond the regular options, but could this not be done without mechanically surpassing other options in the character's core abilities? For example, +1 to one stat, a feat, darkvision, a skill/ tool proficiency, and a language.
Well, if you mean surpass as in has access to an 18 in a stat, several races have access to unique effects without causing issue. I would argue Yuan-ti, Kobold, half-elf and mountain dwarf as examples. If you are making a broader point on power level, I am not sure I can answer as I more simply disagree.

Lunali

2022-02-22, 11:59 PM

f5anor

2022-02-23, 02:53 AM

I think the biggest "issue" with custom lineage is that a lot of the people that claim it reduces diversity are counting all custom lineage characters as being the same race.

If you primarily see races as a set of statistics, then yes, it reduces diversity. If you see races primarily as a narrative/character development tool, then the statistics being the same is almost irrelevant.

If alternative narrative is all the designers wanted to support, then Custom Lineage is a dud.

You can fluff your race anyway you like, if its not going to have any impact on stats. I can play a Dragonborn and claim that he has some Elven ancestry, which by the way caused him to have a close relationship to some Fey, which in turn pushed him towards Sorcery. I dont need "Custom Lineage" for that.

Custom Lineage has only one impact, giving Darkvision, on top of the the free feat that VHuman provides. In essence, this removes one of the main reasons for selecting another race, over VHuman. Also, obviously it allows you to start with higher stats.

This is why all the optimizers have switched to Custom Lineage, where they used to select VHuman before.

diplomancer

2022-02-23, 04:07 AM

If alternative narrative is all the designers wanted to support, then Custom Lineage is a dud.

You can fluff your race anyway you like, if its not going to have any impact on stats. I can play a Dragonborn and claim that he has some Elven ancestry, which by the way caused him to have a close relationship to some Fey, which in turn pushed him towards Sorcery. I dont need "Custom Lineage" for that.

Custom Lineage has only one impact, giving Darkvision, on top of the the free feat that VHuman provides. In essence, this removes one of the main reasons for selecting another race, over VHuman. Also, obviously it allows you to start with higher stats.

This is why all the optimizers have switched to Custom Lineage, where they used to select VHuman before.

I found it somewhat amusing that people are saying things like "well, but HOW could I create my human Wizard with fey connections that gave him darkvision and the fey-touched feat without custom lineage (that just by chance let him start with 18 Int)?" Or "but what about my Rogue enforcer, that usually works at night and got used to it (darkvision), and as an enforcer has better arms training (moderately armoured, 18dex)?"

If you did that, you're an optimizer. It's ok, we understand, there's nothing wrong with that.

Gurgeh

2022-02-23, 04:22 AM

"well, but HOW could I create my human Wizard with fey connections that gave him darkvision and the fey-touched feat without custom lineage (that just by chance let him start with 18 Int)?"
"Congratulations, you've made an Eladrin with less and worse teleportation, no Trance, no Fey Ancestry, and no free Perception proficiency. I hope one free first-level spell per day and 18 intelligence are worth the trade."

f5anor

2022-02-23, 06:43 AM

I found it somewhat amusing that people are saying things like "well, but HOW could I create my human Wizard with fey connections that gave him darkvision and the fey-touched feat without custom lineage (that just by chance let him start with 18 Int)?" Or "but what about my Rogue enforcer, that usually works at night and got used to it (darkvision), and as an enforcer has better arms training (moderately armoured, 18dex)?"

If you did that, you're an optimizer. It's ok, we understand, there's nothing wrong with that.

You just described all of my players, not to imply that there is anything wrong with that.

When the game allows for some level of optimization, its not the fault of the players when they take advantage of it, even to absurd lengths.

JNAProductions

2022-02-23, 06:44 AM

Also, what’s with people taking Medium Armor on a Rogue?

Is it just for the shields?

f5anor

2022-02-23, 06:46 AM

"Congratulations, you've made an Eladrin with less and worse teleportation, no Trance, no Fey Ancestry, and no free Perception proficiency. I hope one free first-level spell per day and 18 intelligence are worth the trade."

Well the 18 INT at starting level alone is worth it, but getting a great spell (that you can cast on your own slots) that you would not get otherwise (Bless, Bane, Command, Hex anyone?) is just gravy.

Trance is thematically nice, but near useless mechanically, unless you want to Coffeelock. Fey Ancestry is OK, but nothing to write home about. Everyone has Perception.

Amechra

2022-02-23, 07:22 AM

Also, what’s with people taking Medium Armor on a Rogue?

Is it just for the shields?

I guess so... which is kinda hilarious from an optimization standpoint — Rogues generally either fight at range (where a shield is of limited use) or are TWFing to give themselves extra chances to sneak attack. Now, if that enforcer rogue had 18 Strength and Moderately Armored, I could kinda see it.

diplomancer

2022-02-23, 07:32 AM

Also, what’s with people taking Medium Armor on a Rogue?

Is it just for the shields?

Well, the shields are a very good incentive, shields are really good. But there aren't not that many good Dex half-feats, so if you want a Rogue to start with 18 dex, that's a good way to do it. Or you can go full bruiser, start with 18 Str and 14 Dex, Expertise Athletics, go Shield Master at level 4, specially if DMs allow for Shield prone+Attack

You just described all of my players, not to imply that there is anything wrong with that.

When the game allows for some level of optimization, its not the fault of the players when they take advantage of it, even to absurd lengths.

Yeah, the "wrongness" is in the choice being available, not the choice itself; though I do have some annoyance with saying that it was all conceptual and the mechanical advantages had nothing to do with it. Almost like it's "oops, an 18, I wonder how that got here!"

Gurgeh

2022-02-23, 08:20 AM

Trance is thematically nice, but near useless mechanically, unless you want to Coffeelock. Fey Ancestry is OK, but nothing to write home about. Everyone has Perception.
Trance has received significant buffs in Monsters of the Multiverse: it has taken over the immunity to magical sleep from Fey Ancestry (since the latter trait has been given to goblinoids as well) and gives two weapon or tool proficiencies that can be freely reassigned whenever you take a long rest - so you can now start off with a heavy crossbow or longbow or rapier or scimitar or whatever as a backup weapon - and you're functionally proficient with every tool printed in the PHB, provided you've got a day's notice. I'm also unsure how "four extra hours every day to do whatever you like with" is mechanically irrelevant (though I certainly won't blame any player for deciding it's too much busywork to take full advantage of).

As for Perception - sure, this may be a world where "everyone" has Perception and it's effectively a proficiency tax - in which case, hooray, this character's paid the proficiency tax and gets an extra proficiency to use elsewhere! Not to mention the skill isn't on the Wizard's skill list, so you've just dramatically expanded the range of backgrounds the character is able to take since there's no other way to get that proficiency at first level if you're burning your starting feat on Fey-Touched.

Cheers for the correction (though obviously this still leaves us in the "I have one more skill proficiency" boat).

Amnestic

2022-02-23, 08:25 AM

Not to mention the skill isn't on the Wizard's skill list, so you've just dramatically expanded the range of backgrounds the character is able to take since there's no other way to get that proficiency at first level if you're burning your starting feat on Fey-Touched.

Customising backgrounds isn't a variant rule, it's the standard, so every character gets two floating skills, two floating tools/languages, a background feature, and some rando trinkets/gold, from their background.

Now granted it's still nice to get perception, but any character can get it from their background if they want to take it.

Amechra

2022-02-23, 08:27 AM

Yeah, the "wrongness" is in the choice being available, not the choice itself; though I do have some annoyance with saying that it was all conceptual and the mechanical advantages had nothing to do with it. Almost like it's "oops, an 18, I wonder how that got here!"

It honestly reminds me a little bit of the kinds of clumsy homebrew that someone throws together because they have this super cool idea for a character...

DeOnde

2022-02-23, 08:41 AM

Custom Lineage, as written, is a clear knee-jerk reaction to the race debacle from earlier last year, they promised they'd offer this feature and had to show something for it in the final book, and so they did.

When the news of custom lineage first came out folks were excited for a pointbuy custom racial traits system, or a selection of major and minor traits to mix and match, and we all know that wasn't even close to what we got. These sweeping system changes couldn't come any earlier than the 2024 "5.5" revision without breaking the game even further, but they'd already promised "something", so what they delivered was a safe and bland, if overtuned option.

If WOTC wants a coherent system for 5.5 they should look to how PF2e does Ancestries (how they do anything, really), that still encourage archetypal choices but don't completely invalidate outliers, specially because ASIs and ability score distributions are much more generous in that system (and don't compete with feats, another terrible idea)

I am of the opinion that the problem with custom lineage is twofold:

1 - It brings to the forefront again the extraordinary power of some feats, and how terribly balanced they are between them; let's call this the " Variant Human Problem"
2 - It disproportionally favors SAD classes (which were already advantageous) with the fabled 18 at level 1, throwing save DCs off the window and allowing for characters to reach the peak of their main ability at level 4; I call this the "Changeling Problem", seeing as they had already Errata'd a race to veto the character creation 15+3.

diplomancer

2022-02-23, 09:06 AM

Trance has received significant buffs in Monsters of the Multiverse: it has taken over the immunity to magical sleep from Fey Ancestry (since the latter trait has been given to goblinoids as well) and gives two weapon or tool proficiencies that can be freely reassigned whenever you take a long rest - so you can now start off with a heavy crossbow or longbow or rapier or scimitar or whatever as a backup weapon - and you're functionally proficient with every tool printed in the PHB, provided you've got a day's notice. I'm also unsure how "four extra hours every day to do whatever you like with" is mechanically irrelevant (though I certainly won't blame any player for deciding it's too much busywork to take full advantage of).

As for Perception - sure, this may be a world where "everyone" has Perception and it's effectively a proficiency tax - in which case, hooray, this character's paid the proficiency tax and gets an extra proficiency to use elsewhere! Not to mention the skill isn't on the Wizard's skill list, so you've just dramatically expanded the range of backgrounds the character is able to take since there's no other way to get that proficiency at first level if you're burning your starting feat on Fey-Touched.

Cheers for the correction (though obviously this still leaves us in the "I have one more skill proficiency" boat).

Interesting how many popular races got nice boosts in the first big "player-facing" segment after Tasha's. Almost like something in Tasha's raised the floor...

Amnestic

2022-02-23, 09:09 AM

Interesting how many popular races got nice boosts in the first big "player-facing" segment after Tasha's. Almost like something in Tasha's raised the floor...

Custom Lineage is barely an upgrade over v.human.

If Custom Lineage existing was enough to "raise the floor" enough to give other races "nice boosts" then, presumably, those races were all underpowered in the face of the almighty Human which has been in the game since day 1 (along with a bevy of other absolutely broken things).

diplomancer

2022-02-23, 09:23 AM

Custom Lineage is barely an upgrade over v.human.

If Custom Lineage existing was enough to "raise the floor" enough to give other races "nice boosts" then, presumably, those races were all underpowered in the face of the almighty Human which has been in the game since day 1 (along with a bevy of other absolutely broken things).

Except at Tier 1, it's as good as V. Human at the builds where V. Human was exceptionally good (i.e, MAD builds that want full feats). Even at those builds, Custom Lineage would surpass them at level 4 (at least if you assume, as I do, that Darkvision is better than your 5th skill option).

For any SAD build, and there are a lot of them, Custom Lineage is a considerable upgrade from V. Human, which was already a top tier choice even for those builds.

Gurgeh

2022-02-23, 09:29 AM

diplomancer

2022-02-23, 09:42 AM

Fussing over a player getting to have a Nice Thing that literally any character at all could also get if you weren't using an entirely optional system just seems disproportionate to me.

D&D is not a competitive game. Someone getting to have an 18 at first level does not turn the game upside-down. The standard rules of the game let somebody start with a 20, and I can promise you nobody has ever gotten hurt from that happening.

As I've said from the first, the main problem of custom lineage is the combination of power and blandness. I'm glad WotC seems to be "fixing" it by giving colorful boosts to more colorful races (though it shows that the power creep HAS already happened), and also glad that I don't play with hardcore optimizers. But I can understand the distress of people who DO play with them, seeing all characters having the same race, and the most bland one at that, as F5anor suggested his players have.

Amnestic

2022-02-23, 10:02 AM

For any SAD build, and there are a lot of them, Custom Lineage is a considerable upgrade from V. Human, which was already a top tier choice even for those builds.

It's not a considerable upgrade. It's a potentially marginal upgrade because there is no truly SAD build. The most Con-centric build, the SADdest you can get, is a dhampir rune knight...which can't be a custom lineage because it's a dhampir.

Every single class wants some amount of str or dex for armour class, con for health, and potentially a mental stat if they're a caster or a monk in some way/shape/form.

You sacrifice something by going +3 Custom Lineage that you don't if you go +2/+1 v.human. Yes, +3 in your primary is very nice, but phrasing it as if it's solely a straight upgrade with zero downsides is misrepresentation.

Also worth mentioning that Changelings could get +3 Cha before (can't anymore, errata'd) and it didn't exactly break the bounds of the game and have every single person rolling changelings whenever their character used charisma. It was absolutely not a major thing in actual play.

f5anor

2022-02-23, 10:19 AM

Trance has received significant buffs in Monsters of the Multiverse: it has taken over the immunity to magical sleep from Fey Ancestry (since the latter trait has been given to goblinoids as well) and gives two weapon or tool proficiencies that can be freely reassigned whenever you take a long rest - so you can now start off with a heavy crossbow or longbow or rapier or scimitar or whatever as a backup weapon - and you're functionally proficient with every tool printed in the PHB, provided you've got a day's notice. I'm also unsure how "four extra hours every day to do whatever you like with" is mechanically irrelevant (though I certainly won't blame any player for deciding it's too much busywork to take full advantage of).

It is indeed a good point that Monsters of the Multiverse (MPMM) potentially changes a lot. Especially the transition from "once per day" to a frequency based on proficiency can indeed turn a ribbon ability into something genuinely useful. Lets discuss that in detail once MPMM is fully available.

Trance, even if it would be expanded as you describe for elves, I still fail to see the big impact. In case you want to act as a martial, you will have access to all the proficiencies you need/make sense for you based on your class. There is no class/subclass that is intended to be used in a martial context that does not include the required weapon proficiencies.

You could of course create an innovative build that aims to be used in a martial context without taking a martial class (or multiclass), but I have not seen one that is worth it so far. I am not saying that there are no benefits here, but rather that they are marginal. A wizard able to use a heavy crossbow will not make any significant impact on the game.

f5anor

2022-02-23, 11:02 AM

Fussing over a player getting to have a Nice Thing that literally any character at all could also get if you weren't using an entirely optional system just seems disproportionate to me.

D&D is not a competitive game. Someone getting to have an 18 at first level does not turn the game upside-down. The standard rules of the game let somebody start with a 20, and I can promise you nobody has ever gotten hurt from that happening.

Agreed, this is not a matter of begrudging anyone the 18, any reasonable DM can scale the difficulty of combat to make up for that.

The issue, is that this race makes other races obsolete. More or less (with some exceptions that prove the rule) the only compelling benefits that other races have over Custom Lineage are the racial feats.

Amnestic

2022-02-23, 11:29 AM

The issue, is that this race makes other races obsolete.
Which races does it obsolete exactly?

Caveat: that weren't already 'obsolete' before Tasha's came out.

GooeyChewie

2022-02-23, 11:36 AM

I think the biggest "issue" with custom lineage is that a lot of the people that claim it reduces diversity are counting all custom lineage characters as being the same race.

If you primarily see races as a set of statistics, then yes, it reduces diversity. If you see races primarily as a narrative/character development tool, then the statistics being the same is almost irrelevant.

I think you have hit upon my issue with Custom Lineage (which is not the same as the OP's issue). I don't see too many players taking Custom Lineage, so it hasn't affected diversity at my tables. But when I do see people take Custom Lineage, it's because they were thinking of taking V.human and wanted a +2 instead of two +1s (or really wanted Darkvision). In theory Custom Lineage should be a narrative/character development tool, but in practice it often gets treated as a race option.

KorvinStarmast

2022-02-23, 11:45 AM

Custom Lineage: I have not had a player try this yet.

When it comes up, if ever, we'll sit down together and figure out how this "not a standard race" being fits into the campaign world.

Once we are done, that will address any and all concerns I have with that option. Players and DM work together: it's a best practice.

New Mord's book: banned at my table until it can be purchased separately. I am super annoyed at how WoTC packaged this release. :smallfurious:

(I might go and find the New Genasi packages and put them in a text file somewhere, since I like the Genasi thematically).

Psyren

2022-02-23, 12:17 PM

MotM isn't allowed at our table yet either, simply because we audit sheets with DDB and nobody is buying that godawful bundle. But I do have it preordered.

f5anor

2022-02-23, 12:22 PM

Which races does it obsolete exactly?

Caveat: that weren't already 'obsolete' before Tasha's came out.

I think you have hit upon my issue with Custom Lineage (which is not the same as the OP's issue). I don't see too many players taking Custom Lineage, so it hasn't affected diversity at my tables. But when I do see people take Custom Lineage, it's because they were thinking of taking V.human and wanted a +2 instead of two +1s (or really wanted Darkvision). In theory Custom Lineage should be a narrative/character development tool, but in practice it often gets treated as a race option.

This is exactly the point, Custom Lineage is in essence VHuman plus Darkvision (and the option to reach 18 in one ability from the get go).

Its a race that is (as Amnestic pointed out) marginally better than VHuman, but this means that its marginally better than the best race for optimization.

As LudicSavant was pointing out in another thread, the definition of breaking the curve, does not rely on whether you are marginally or significantly better, but rather that you are better than the best. And this is clearly the case with Custom Lineage.

For anyone who would be motivated to take VHuman, Custom Lineage is a nearly automatic choice and an upgrade.

JNAProductions

2022-02-23, 12:24 PM

VHuman isn’t the best, though.

Unless Darkvision is essential, it’s always GOOD, but not usually the best.

Amnestic

2022-02-23, 12:54 PM

As LudicSavant was pointing out in another thread, the definition of breaking the curve, does not rely on whether you are marginally or significantly better, but rather that you are better than the best. And this is clearly the case with Custom Lineage.

Except v.human isn't the best of the best pre-Tasha's, and Custom Lineage isn't the best of the best post-Tasha's?

DarknessEternal

2022-02-23, 01:29 PM

I find it hilarious that everyone thinks darkvision is worth more than a skill proficiency. Darkvision costs 200gp.

ProsecutorGodot

2022-02-23, 02:02 PM

I find it hilarious that everyone thinks darkvision is worth more than a skill proficiency. Darkvision costs 200gp.

I can only assume you're meaning to compare it with Goggles of Night, the spell isn't permanent and involves constant resource expenditure. Magic Items are in no way guaranteed. A skill proficiency is something that can be trained given downtime though and in many cases (outside of Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth and Perception, the skills that are notably used for combat) only situationally important.

There's also the conditional aspects, an additional skill proficiency is almost certainly worth less to a Rogue who already has a wealth of proficiencies and would benefit more than most from being able to move relatively unimpeded in darkness.

diplomancer

2022-02-23, 02:35 PM

I find it hilarious that everyone thinks darkvision is worth more than a skill proficiency. Darkvision costs 200gp.

Really? Where's that price stated in the PHB? Anything that's not there is by DM permission only . So if in your campaign that's what it costs, well, enjoy I guess, but don't assume it applies to other campaigns. (Artificer added an exception, but that opportunity cost is far greater than what a 5th skill is worth)

And even in campaigns where it DOES apply, obviously the choice between A and B is better than just A, and a +2, except for some builds at tier 1, is better than two +1s.

It's not a considerable upgrade. It's a potentially marginal upgrade because there is no truly SAD build. The most Con-centric build, the SADdest you can get, is a dhampir rune knight...which can't be a custom lineage because it's a dhampir.

Every single class wants some amount of str or dex for armour class, con for health, and potentially a mental stat if they're a caster or a monk in some way/shape/form.

You sacrifice something by going +3 Custom Lineage that you don't if you go +2/+1 v.human. Yes, +3 in your primary is very nice, but phrasing it as if it's solely a straight upgrade with zero downsides is misrepresentation.

Also worth mentioning that Changelings could get +3 Cha before (can't anymore, errata'd) and it didn't exactly break the bounds of the game and have every single person rolling changelings whenever their character used charisma. It was absolutely not a major thing in actual play.

"Some amount of str or dex" really does not MAD make; if it's just for AC, max Str you want is 15, and for most builds 14 Dex is good enough; either of them can be easily acquired with point-buy, no racial ASI necessary. If it's not just for AC, that is most likely your prime, and starting with an 18 is very good.

Now, Con; the only classes that maybe would really like to start with 16 Con are frontliners (edit: obviously, every class wants 20 at all stats. What I mean here is "considering the opportunity cost measured against other possible options".
Most casters actually prefer to start it with an odd number, say, 15, so they can bump it up with Res (Con) at 4th or 8th level (and starting with 18 in your prime allows you to do that with little opportunity cost).

Interesting that Changeling was errata'ed isn't it? Almost like there was a power curve that Custom Lineage ignored... (and changelings were more manageable, both by being Cha only, and by being setting-limited. Custom lineage has no of those limitations).

DarknessEternal

2022-02-23, 02:38 PM

I can only assume you're meaning to compare it with Goggles of Night, the spell isn't permanent and involves constant resource expenditure. Magic Items are in no way guaranteed. A skill proficiency is something that can be trained given downtime though and in many cases (outside of Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth and Perception, the skills that are notably used for combat) only situationally important.

You are completely backwards. Magic Item creation and purchasing rules are in the DMG. There are no rules for gaining skill proficiency through downtime.

Custom Lineage is in a section of a book entitled "This is all optional."

ProsecutorGodot

2022-02-23, 02:52 PM

You are completely backwards. Magic Item creation and purchasing rules are in the DMG. There are no rules for gaining skill proficiency through downtime.

Custom Lineage is in a section of a book entitled "This is all optional."

Mark of Prestige allows you to gain training in a skill or feat, it's something we use often in our Mad Mage campaign because we've earned an extensive amount of renown points (which can be gained through downtime) with the Lord's Alliance, Grey Hand and other members of nobility.

Granted we use Magic Item creation and purchasing too but they're not any more or less optional, and to be clear, magic item crafting is optional:

Magic items are the DM’s purview, so you decide how they fall into the party’s possession. As an option, you can allow player characters to craft magic items.

The creation of a pair of Goggles of Night is extensive though, especially using the DMG guidelines. It's not as simple as "spend 200gp" as it requires a recipe to craft, 500gp and an indeterminate amount of time.

Buying Magic items also isn't a downtime activity in the DMG, and is also explicitly optional:

Unless you decide your campaign works otherwise, most magic items are so rare that they aren’t available for purchase.
The price of an uncommon magic item is also a range from 100 to 500gp. The average price of an item is 300gp here.

If we use the Xanathar's rules the item could cost as much as 600gp or as little as 100gp to purchase. The crafting process actually matches your 200gp estimate, taking two weeks to craft.

diplomancer

2022-02-23, 02:54 PM

You are completely backwards. Magic Item creation and purchasing rules are in the DMG. There are no rules for gaining skill proficiency through downtime.

Custom Lineage is in a section of a book entitled "This is all optional."

From a player's point of view, everything in the DMG is optional. And if we are comparing Custom Lineage to V. Humans (which are also optional, so there), it's a presupposition of the discussion that they're both allowed. It's not a presupposition of the discussion that anything else is allowed, like specific magic item shopping by players.

Amnestic

2022-02-23, 02:55 PM

"Some amount of str or dex" really does not MAD make; if it's just for AC, max Str you want is 15, which can be easily gotten woth and for most builds 14 Dex is good enough; either of them can be easily acquired with point-buy, no racial ASI necessary. If it's not just for AC, that is most likely your prime, and starting with an 18 is very good.

Now, Con; the only classes that maybe would like to start with 16 Con are frontliners. Most casters actually prefer to start it with an odd number, say, 15, so they can bump it up with Res (Con) at 4th or 8th level (and starting with 18 in your prime allows you to do that with little opportunity cost).

No, everyone wants more con. Con means more hit points on your squishy d6 wizard and better con saves to not lose your spells because whoops you can't take Res:Con for 7 more levels of gameplay. Hope that you don't make any concentration checks during 80% of your entire adventuring career while you're waiting on getting to level 8.

Interesting that Changeling was errata'ed isn't it?

Mildly but since it was apparently intentional (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1197377429288783873?lang=en-GB) and they gave no reasoning behind the errata, who's to say why the changed their mind? You're guessing when you say:

Almost like there was a power curve that Custom Lineage ignored... (and changelings were more manageable, both by being Cha only, and by being setting-limited. Custom lineage has no of those limitations).

Custom Lineage is exactly as limited as changeling is: It's a racial option the DM can simply say no to if they are for some reason concerned about a power level that has been in the game since day 1 thanks to rolled stats.

diplomancer

2022-02-23, 03:04 PM

No, everyone wants more con. Con means more hit points on your squishy d6 wizard and better con saves to not lose your spells because whoops you can't take Res:Con for 7 more levels of gameplay. Hope that you don't make any concentration checks during 80% of your entire adventuring career while you're waiting on getting to level 8.

If waiting bothers you, you can get it at level 4. Now you have int 18, 16 Con, proficiency in Constitution Saves, and either Fey-Touched, Observant, or Telekinetic.

Or heck, if you're so concerned you can take Res (con), at level 1, and still be a half-feat away from Int 18, unlike the V. Human who takes the same feat, and then has to spend a full ASI to catch up; true, he will have a better tertiary (or, more likely, quaternary) stat, but I don't think this is worth it.

Custom Lineage is exactly as limited as changeling is: It's a racial option the DM can simply say no to if they are for some reason concerned about a power level that has been in the game since day 1 thanks to rolled stats.

For one thing, Custom Lineage was AL legal, Changeling wasn't, except in Eberron adventures. For another thing, power considerations excluded, storywise it's easier to explain to a player "this race does not exist in my setting" than "this totally blank slate cypher for very individual and unique characters that was designed to exist anywhere does not exist in my setting".

Witty Username

2022-02-23, 10:56 PM

If waiting bothers you, you can get it at level 4. Now you have int 18, 16 Con, proficiency in Constitution Saves, and either Fey-Touched, Observant, or Telekinetic.

Or heck, if you're so concerned you can take Res (con), at level 1, and still be a half-feat away from Int 18, unlike the V. Human who takes the same feat, and then has to spend a full ASI to catch up; true, he will have a better tertiary (or, more likely, quaternary) stat, but I don't think this is worth it.

For one thing, Custom Lineage was AL legal, Changeling wasn't, except in Eberron adventures. For another thing, power considerations excluded, storywise it's easier to explain to a player "this race does not exist in my setting" than "this totally blank slate cypher for very individual and unique characters that was designed to exist anywhere does not exist in my setting".

If waiting until level 4 doesn't bother you, there is no reason to play custom lineage. Every race will have better secondary stats and with the exception of variant human kinda, better racial features.
Sure you can't stat with an 18 in your primary, but you can just take an ASI or a half-feat if it's that important to you.

Pex

2022-02-23, 11:59 PM

It's not a considerable upgrade. It's a potentially marginal upgrade because there is no truly SAD build. The most Con-centric build, the SADdest you can get, is a dhampir rune knight...which can't be a custom lineage because it's a dhampir.

Every single class wants some amount of str or dex for armour class, con for health, and potentially a mental stat if they're a caster or a monk in some way/shape/form.

You sacrifice something by going +3 Custom Lineage that you don't if you go +2/+1 v.human. Yes, +3 in your primary is very nice, but phrasing it as if it's solely a straight upgrade with zero downsides is misrepresentation.

Also worth mentioning that Changelings could get +3 Cha before (can't anymore, errata'd) and it didn't exactly break the bounds of the game and have every single person rolling changelings whenever their character used charisma. It was absolutely not a major thing in actual play.

Spellcasters don't always need AC. They can use the hide behind total cover strategy when not casting. They can still have 14 CO which is enough for hit points.

Rogues and archer rangers are buffing DX anyway. Melee rangers have an issue, so the player might as well go archery.

A few monk subclasses care about DX a bit more than WI. Buff DX now, WI later. Both CO and WI can start at 14. They've been dumping ST, IN, and/or CH since forever anyway.

DX Fighters have no issue. ST Fighters occasionally dump DX anyway because of heavy armor. They know they're losing out on archery but are willing to pay that price. 14 CO is enough and buff ST.

Naked barbarians don't like this. Those willing to wear medium armor are fine, bumping ST.

Paladins don't like this. Even if they're willing to spend their spells only on smiting or a few buffs, they want CH for the saving throw bonus. They will hard pass the 18.

Lunali

2022-02-23, 11:59 PM

Custom Lineage has only one impact, giving Darkvision, on top of the the free feat that VHuman provides. In essence, this removes one of the main reasons for selecting another race, over VHuman. Also, obviously it allows you to start with higher stats.

This is why all the optimizers have switched to Custom Lineage, where they used to select VHuman before.

So you're saying it works and has increased diversity? If people who would have been 100% human before are now a mix of races, that's increased diversity.

diplomancer

2022-02-24, 01:51 AM

So you're saying it works and has increased diversity? If people who would have been 100% human before are now a mix of races, that's increased diversity.

They are not a mix of races, they are a mix of cyphers that not even pretends to be races.

f5anor

2022-02-24, 01:57 AM

So you're saying it works and has increased diversity? If people who would have been 100% human before are now a mix of races, that's increased diversity.

There is no diversity. Custom Lineage is basically VHuman++. These characters will claim to have some long lost Elven great grandmother which justifies the Darkvision.

This option removes the need to take any non-human race (for the most part), and replaced it with a human equivalent.

The exception stil, being builds that rely on racial traits such as Elven Accuracy.

diplomancer

2022-02-24, 02:44 AM

There is no diversity. Custom Lineage is basically VHuman++. These characters will claim to have some long lost Elven great grandmother which justifies the Darkvision.

This option removes the need to take any non-human race (for the most part), and replaced it with a human equivalent.

The exception stil, being builds that rely on racial traits such as Elven Accuracy.

I wouldn't go that far, though I believe that has been your experience. It's not like everyone was playing V. Humans before- or would be, if not for Darkvision; the thing about Darkvision is that if even one character in the party doesn't have it, its value decreases considerably (so if things were always as strictly optimized as you've said, you'd either have all Human parties-maybe with a non-human scout- or all non-Human, Darkvision, parties. And that has not been my experience, at least).

Witty Username

2022-02-24, 02:53 AM

Rogues and archer rangers are buffing DX anyway. Melee rangers have an issue, so the player might as well go archery.
Melee rangers don't really have an issue, they PAM just as hard as anyone else. More or less end up in the same spot as the barbarian.

diplomancer

2022-02-24, 03:43 AM

If waiting until level 4 doesn't bother you, there is no reason to play custom lineage. Every race will have better secondary stats and with the exception of variant human kinda, better racial features.
Sure you can't stat with an 18 in your primary, but you can just take an ASI or a half-feat if it's that important to you.

I wouldn't recommend getting Resilient (con) at level 1, at those early levels your tactic really has to be "don't get hit", you don't have enough hit points anyway, and the value of Res (con) is smaller. I might get it at 4 if I expected a short campaign, but usually prefer getting it at 8.

I was just pointing out that IF I thought that was best, so getting Resilient Con with V. Human or Custom Lineage, CL would still leave me a half-feat away from 18 Int at level 4, at the small cost (to me) of a worse quaternary ability score, while V. Human would have to take a full ASI to get to 18.

Tanarii

2022-02-24, 10:53 AM

Melee rangers don't really have an issue, they PAM just as hard as anyone else. More or less end up in the same spot as the barbarian.
The context of Pex's post, a melee ranger requires a Dex 14 as well as Str, Con and Wis.

Unlike a Barbarian, who is SAD. Str and (like everyone else) Con. They can put some points in Dex, but it's not required, the class is designed to work without AC, making it a SAD class, one ability score and Con only.

ew_of_chiswick

2022-02-24, 01:38 PM

The context of Pex's post, a melee ranger requires a Dex 14 as well as Str, Con and Wis.

Unlike a Barbarian, who is SAD. Str and (like everyone else) Con. They can put some points in Dex, but it's not required, the class is designed to work without AC, making it a SAD class, one ability score and Con only.
One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a melee PAM ranger. Having 14 DEX as a secondary stat (to STR) is critical, but you can get away with relatively low WIS. Definitely not SAD, but not that MAD.

Witty Username

2022-02-24, 09:01 PM

I wouldn't recommend getting Resilient (con) at level 1, at those early levels your tactic really has to be "don't get hit", you don't have enough hit points anyway, and the value of Res (con) is smaller. I might get it at 4 if I expected a short campaign, but usually prefer getting it at 8.

I was just pointing out that IF I thought that was best, so getting Resilient Con with V. Human or Custom Lineage, CL would still leave me a half-feat away from 18 Int at level 4, at the small cost (to me) of a worse quaternary ability score, while V. Human would have to take a full ASI to get to 18.
I would agree that Res(con) doesn't have much impact levels 1-3, I would point out that it is more than an 18 in primary stat though, generally speaking.
Which gets into the +2, +1 from half feat composition for custom lineage, but this isn't really a power argument anymore so much as flexibility. Since this is pretty in line with most races abilities.
Which I will concede custom lineage will fit on more builds, given its flexible scores, but often times there are better specific options.

In my mind:
Custom Lineage can have the 18.
Human gets the double 16 with full feat, and the 3 16s (not unique but custom can't)
+2/+1 both, and a bit of discard and draw. It mostly comes down to if you want a primary stat half-feat or secondary half-feat or darkvision. And is pretty inline with most races.
The optimization is messier than, custom lineage is clearly superior in every situation.

Lunali

2022-02-25, 12:05 AM

There is no diversity. Custom Lineage is basically VHuman++. These characters will claim to have some long lost Elven great grandmother which justifies the Darkvision.

This option removes the need to take any non-human race (for the most part), and replaced it with a human equivalent.

The exception stil, being builds that rely on racial traits such as Elven Accuracy.

If they would have all been VHuman before, having them all be custom lineage human doesn't decrease diversity. If even one of them is an elf or gnome using custom lineage to get a feat on a non-human race, that's an increase in diversity.

Tanarii

2022-02-25, 12:52 AM

One of my favorite characters I've ever played was a melee PAM ranger. Having 14 DEX as a secondary stat (to STR) is critical, but you can get away with relatively low WIS. Definitely not SAD, but not that MAD.A 14 in a stat means using one of your two highest ability scores or an ability modifier with standard array. Even with PB it's not cheap. And yeah you can dump wis if you want but that's like dumping Int on an EK, a pretty non-optimal choice.

Agreed though that even a 1 Primary + Con + 1x14 (Wis dumping Ranger), isn't as mad as 2 non-con primary + Con 14 or less (Paladin, Monk), nor 1 primary + Con + 2x14 (non-Wis-dumping Ranger). I was comparing a Barbarian (which is 1 primary + Con*) to the last one.

*or even Con + 1 almost primary, since Barbs can afford Str 16 at low levels and Str 18 at high more than the typical fighter or Paladin.

Pex

2022-02-25, 01:42 AM

If they would have all been VHuman before, having them all be custom lineage human doesn't decrease diversity. If even one of them is an elf or gnome using custom lineage to get a feat on a non-human race, that's an increase in diversity.

It's not diversity when you have a party of Custom Lineage elf, Custom Lineage gnome, Custom Lineage dwarf, Custom Lineage halfling, Custom Lineage goblin. They are all Custom Lineage.

diplomancer

2022-02-25, 02:02 AM

Gurgeh

2022-02-25, 02:06 AM

It's pretty clear Lunali's not talking about Custom Lineage competing with the nonhuman races - the comparison is with characters who would otherwise have been Variant Human.

diplomancer

2022-02-25, 02:24 AM

It's pretty clear Lunali's not talking about Custom Lineage competing with the nonhuman races - the comparison is with characters who would otherwise have been Variant Human.

But that still is not an increase in diversity. It's at best a tie in diversity. And if even a few of these players would not choose V. Human, but some other race, because of Darkvision, and now they are choosing Custom Lineage, that would be a decrease in diversity.

Amnestic

2022-02-25, 04:01 AM

It's not diversity when you have a party of Custom Lineage elf, Custom Lineage gnome, Custom Lineage dwarf, Custom Lineage halfling, Custom Lineage goblin. They are all Custom Lineage.

If I refluff [x] race to be [y] race, is my character [x] or [y] for the purposes of the game?

Not quite so simple, but I would lean more on the [y] side of things, since that's what everyone actually interacts with in the narrative of the game.

diplomancer

2022-02-25, 04:21 AM

If I refluff [x] race to be [y] race, is my character [x] or [y] for the purposes of the game?

Not quite so simple, but I would lean more on the [y] side of things, since that's what everyone actually interacts with in the narrative of the game.

If the DM's ok with it, fine. Otherwise you're claiming the right to dictate to the DM what an (elf/gnome/dwarf, etc,) is like in his setting. In my setting, a creature that doesn't have Fey Ancestry and Trance (and other features) is not an Elf. You can do it with Humans, because humans are so featureless anyway, but once you start doing it with Races that have actual features, it strains the boundaries of the different races.

Amnestic

2022-02-25, 04:45 AM

If the DM's ok with it, fine. Otherwise you're claiming the right to dictate to the DM what an (elf/gnome/dwarf, etc,) is like in his setting. In my setting, a creature that doesn't have Fey Ancestry and Trance (and other features) is not an Elf.

Yes, if the DM's okay with it. That's an underlying aspect of this conversation since they get final say on literally everything in their game. Don't like it, just ban it. You get your precious racial diversity of everyone going v.humans back, since they're apparently the best of the best and therefore the only played race.

diplomancer

2022-02-25, 05:03 AM

Yes, if the DM's okay with it. That's an underlying aspect of this conversation since they get final say on literally everything in their game. Don't like it, just ban it. You get your precious racial diversity of everyone going v.humans back, since they're apparently the best of the best and therefore the only played race.

As long as the DM's fine with obliterating all mechanical distinctions between the different races and making them just skins and hats, Custom Lineage will not affect diversity. I see the light now. Yes, obviously Custom Lineage increases diversity.

Amnestic

2022-02-25, 05:29 AM

As long as the DM's fine with obliterating all mechanical distinctions between the different races and making them just skins and hats, Custom Lineage will not affect diversity.

Honestly I don't think it will/has because...it hasn't. People are still playing a bunch of other races happily, without issue, and even the most cutting edge optimisers are not solely playing CL above every other option.

So it destroying racial diversity of parties* doesn't seem to be a thing, either from a casual 'narrative first' approach or a 'hardcore optimiser' approach to the game. So what's your beef, exactly? Tasha's has been out now for 16 months or thereabouts (november 2020 release). It's not a hot new ticket item. Has the sky fallen? Has everyone given up all other character concepts? Do they all bow solely at the altar of custom lineage? It certainly doesn't seem like it, so when you come here claiming all this will happen and it will kill diversity...when is that going to happen?

*which frankly is a weird conceit in general: do you have a problem if everyone plays 5 elves or 5 dwarves or 5 humans or 5 tieflings? Like, either because that's the premise of the campaign or just because they all want to? Do you insist everyone play a different race in your games? Only one guy gets to play a human, only one elf, only one dwarf...

Cheesegear

2022-02-25, 07:12 AM

Yes, if the DM's okay with it. That's an underlying aspect of this conversation since they get final say on literally everything in their game. Don't like it, just ban it.

As always; I wished I played at the magical table where the DM says something and all the players just agree to it.

'D&D Beyond says I can.' is basically the best response to anything the DM says. Because what? Is the DM better than this app I use for free? lol noob.

Despite what the game says; All the negotiating power is in the players' hands. They can just walk. Without the players, the DM has no game. With less players at the table, the other players suffer, as well. So it actually turns into all the players vs. the DM, and why is the DM being such a ****? It's in the book. If it wasn't supposed to be used, it wouldn't be there. Why the **** did we buy this book if the DM just wasn't going to let us use the option? The DM is ****. We're making our own group without the DM. Someone else can DM. This guy sucks.

'Just ban it.' doesn't work. As a DM, every time I've tried to ban anything, it's bitten me in the arse. Every. Time.

'With your DM's permission...'
Cool. If the DM doesn't give me permission then I walk. It's the character I want to play.

Granted...Apparently I can say 'No.' at any other time; My players never fight with me during play sessions. They only ever seem to fight me during character creation. It's so bizarre.

KorvinStarmast

2022-02-25, 08:12 AM

As always; I wished I played at the magical table where the DM says something and all the players just agree to it. You ought to visit the tables where I play.

'D&D Beyond says I can.' is basically the best response to anything the DM says. Because what? Is the DM better than this app I use for free? lol noob. Why play with people like that?

Why the **** did we buy this book if the DM just wasn't going to let us use the option? The DM is ****. We're making our own group without the DM. Someone else can DM. This guy sucks.
That's where your illustration breaks down.

Cool. If the DM doesn't give me permission then I walk. It's the character I want to play. Bye. Hope you enjoy whatever other leisure activity you'll be engaging in.

My players never fight with me during play sessions. They only ever seem to fight me during character creation. It can be argued that Chargen is kind of its own mini game.

Cheesegear

2022-02-25, 08:28 AM

Why play with people like that?

Because they're friends with other players in the group.

stoutstien

2022-02-25, 08:31 AM

Because they're friends with other players in the group.

So? Purge the table. You said that without the players at the end doesn't have a game but if my experience tells me anything players are basically a dime a dozen where competent DMs are rare. If your mutual friend can't understand your decision here then they're probably not really your friend to begin with so you get a two for one deal for clearing space.

KorvinStarmast

2022-02-25, 08:37 AM

Because they're friends with other players in the group. Then open the PHB to page 6 and point out to them that the DM has final say in what goes in their (the DMs) game world.
If that point needs to be underlined, you can tell them.

"You are free to ask DDB to run a game for you; good luck with that."

That snarky advice considered, you're social set up is unique to what you are doing, so any advice I can offer is likely worth about what you paid for it. :smallsmile:

GooeyChewie

2022-02-25, 08:44 AM

Why play with people like that?

Because while it's true that the DM can change anything, there's a psychological difference between the DM disallowing something which is otherwise allowed and the DM allowing something which is otherwise disallowed. Plus, this type of conversation often comes up after the player has created their character and the DM notices something amiss, and often times the player doesn't want to go back and "fix" it, especially if their character concept depends on it.

Of course, the solution is to be very clear and up-front when you agree to DM that you are not going to allow Custom Lineage before anybody makes a character. And if you can give the players a reason why, all the better.

KorvinStarmast

2022-02-25, 08:51 AM

Of course, the solution is to be very clear and up-front when you agree to DM that you are not going to allow Custom Lineage before anybody makes a character. And if you can give the players a reason why, all the better. Yeah, my Salt Marsh campaign had a one page document on "things to know before chargen" and a little bit of "some things about this world that you'll want to know ahead of time." I also had a "here's the world map of Greyhawk, where are you from and how did you get into this region?"

One of my players wanted to create a custom background Smuggler with a custom feature (technically, custom backgrounds in PHB have to pick a feature from one of the backgrounds) so I had him send me a draft. One quick review later, I gave it two thumbs up and a "well done!" :smallsmile: It's better, IMO, than the one in Saltmarsh book so we went with it. I folded it in narratively very easily in terms of who he had as contacts in Saltmarsh proper among smugglers. I love how that process can work, the DM and the player working together to create something like that.

Back to custom lineage: I was reviewing some of the remarks an want to +1 something Pex pointed out: standard human got diddly squat from Tasha's.

ew_of_chiswick

2022-02-25, 12:12 PM

A 14 in a stat means using one of your two highest ability scores or an ability modifier with standard array. Even with PB it's not cheap. And yeah you can dump wis if you want but that's like dumping Int on an EK, a pretty non-optimal choice.

Agreed though that even a 1 Primary + Con + 1x14 (Wis dumping Ranger), isn't as mad as 2 non-con primary + Con 14 or less (Paladin, Monk), nor 1 primary + Con + 2x14 (non-Wis-dumping Ranger). I was comparing a Barbarian (which is 1 primary + Con*) to the last one.

*or even Con + 1 almost primary, since Barbs can afford Str 16 at low levels and Str 18 at high more than the typical fighter or Paladin.
Very true. That specific character build was helped by rolling a pretty good MAD array. 16-14-14-13 for STR-DEX-CON-WIS (after VHuman modifiers). I even pumped WIS with Observant at level 4 (getting WIS to 14) because getting the big passive perception boost was an important facet of the character.

Without stressing perception (and/or multiclassing), though, I didn't find I needed WIS all that much for ranger spellcasting, especially on a melee ranger. My go-to spells were Zephyr Strike and Hunter's Mark, and I picked up Aid and Pass Without Trace. Most of the effective spells for a melee ranger don't require saves.

(We're going off-topic now, so I will stop, but I enjoyed getting to talk about Cal again. Thanks for engaging.)

Anymage

2022-02-25, 12:42 PM

Yes, if the DM's okay with it. That's an underlying aspect of this conversation since they get final say on literally everything in their game. Don't like it, just ban it.

It would be great if every group started with a productive session zero, followed by a discussion as to how their characters could all fit together in both the party and the narrative. In practice, way more often than not I've seen players bring the characters they want and expecting the DM and the other players to work alongside them. Even in this forum, I've seen more than a few people arguing for why their build has narrative justification (with the unstated assumption being that the narrative should shift to make way for their build) as opposed to how their build should flex to suit the narrative.

So yes. "You can't bring the character you want" is likely to get player pushback and will involve spending a good sized chunk of DM credibility. This is not an unlimited resource, and attempts to treat is as otherwise are likely to fall apart.

Pex

2022-02-25, 01:09 PM

As always; I wished I played at the magical table where the DM says something and all the players just agree to it.

'D&D Beyond says I can.' is basically the best response to anything the DM says. Because what? Is the DM better than this app I use for free? lol noob.

Despite what the game says; All the negotiating power is in the players' hands. They can just walk. Without the players, the DM has no game. With less players at the table, the other players suffer, as well. So it actually turns into all the players vs. the DM, and why is the DM being such a ****? It's in the book. If it wasn't supposed to be used, it wouldn't be there. Why the **** did we buy this book if the DM just wasn't going to let us use the option? The DM is ****. We're making our own group without the DM. Someone else can DM. This guy sucks.

'Just ban it.' doesn't work. As a DM, every time I've tried to ban anything, it's bitten me in the arse. Every. Time.

'With your DM's permission...'
Cool. If the DM doesn't give me permission then I walk. It's the character I want to play.

Granted...Apparently I can say 'No.' at any other time; My players never fight with me during play sessions. They only ever seem to fight me during character creation. It's so bizarre.

I think the reason this happens is because of player agency. The player's character is the only thing he gets to control, and if, in this player's view, he doesn't have a say in what character he get to play at all then why bother? For some people player buy in can only go so far. If the DM declares a theme for the campaign, it takes player buy in to accept he cannot play a pirate ninja terror of the high seas when the campaign is everyone is a member of the Order Of Philanthropy of the Metropolis in the Valley Between Three Mountains. At some point what the DM wants to run a player doesn't want to play. For some players the game mechanics of a class or race or feat or combination is very important to them. They aren't wrong, but it will be a clash with DMs who don't care for those particular things the players want.

That is not to say the DM must give in. It's not a given the player who walks finds another game. Good for the player if he does, and good for the DM if he gets other players. It is up to the DM or player who can't find others to play with to consider maybe he's being irrational in his wants and restrictions. Maybe they're happy with their wants and restrictions, and if they can't find others who are ok with it are perfectly happy not to play D&D and do something else.

Given a DM and player will play with each other, people say it's fine for the player to ask the DM to change a rule or allow something the rules technically don't allow or otherwise "fix" what's not giving the player fun. The DM can say yes or no, but the point is the DM works with the player to make the character and game work for him. By that token, it is then fair for the DM to lament a particular official rule exists because it makes the game harder for them. They resent having to ban it or change it as they don't like it every player and his next door neighbor are wanting it or walk away.

JLandan

2022-02-25, 02:44 PM

I dislike custom lineage because it is, to use a phrase I first heard from Psyren, an amorphous stat blob. I want a t-shirt that says "Amorphous Stat Blob"

Yes, you can make it look like whatever you like; but it isn't.

There are already guides for race and subrace custom design in the DMG. If a player has a concept that doesn't fit the standard races, make a new race or subrace, even if it is an amorphous stat blob.

If a player wants to run a Mountain Dwarf Wizard, I have to ask why Mountain Dwarf? The answer is usually medium armor. Okay, the price you pay for medium armor is no Int bonus. So, to avoid paying the price the player goes with a not-a-dwarf stat blob. Well, that's mountain or dwarf.

What if the answer is Dwarven Wizard, not necessarily Mountain Dwarf. Would not a better option be a Dwarven subrace with +2 Int and medium armor proficiency. Very much like their mountainous cousins, but instead of strong and hardy, they are clever and studious. Call them Tower Dwarves. Still Dwarven for baseline features and all prerequisites. It's only one stat different than Mountain subrace, and it isn't an amorphous stat blob.

If a player just wants to be an Elf that starts with a feat. An amorphous not-an-elf stat blob is not the solution. The solution is a new race: Varient Elf. Two +1 stat bonuses, baseline Elf features, and a feat. Note it loses all the Elf subrace features, which include the Weapon Training. Still qualifies as an Elf, though.

Races with no subrace features would be better done by the custom lineage rules, but make them still of that race, not amorphous.

KorvinStarmast

2022-02-25, 03:00 PM

I dislike custom lineage because it is, to use a phrase I first heard from Psyren, an amorphous stat blob. I want a t-shirt that says "Amorphous Stat Blob"

Yes, you can make it look like whatever you like; but it isn't.

There are already guides for race and subrace custom design in the DMG. If a player has a concept that doesn't fit the standard races, make a new race or subrace, even if it is an amorphous stat blob.

If a player wants to run a Mountain Dwarf Wizard, I have to ask why Mountain Dwarf? The answer is usually medium armor. Okay, the price you pay for medium armor is no Int bonus. So, to avoid paying the price the player goes with a not-a-dwarf stat blob. Well, that's mountain or dwarf.

What if the answer is Dwarven Wizard, not necessarily Mountain Dwarf. Would not a better option be a Dwarven subrace with +2 Int and medium armor proficiency. Very much like their mountainous cousins, but instead of strong and hardy, they are clever and studious. Call them Tower Dwarves Better yet, call them Gnomes (sub race of dwarves) and then get rid of the entire gnome 'race' and clean up the game.
*Korvin ducks as the gnome advocates launch catapults full of overripe vegetables in this direction*

Races with no subrace features would be better done by the custom lineage rules, but make them still of that race, not amorphous. In other words, we don't need an Ooze humanoid race at all, we already have an amorphous blob, and its name is Custom Lineage. :smallbiggrin:

(By the way, oozes as PCs is a no-go at my tables; that aesthetic does not appeal to me).

Kane0

2022-02-25, 03:18 PM

One fun reason to do swapping your +2 for a feat is you can start with a racial feat

JLandan

2022-02-25, 03:24 PM

One fun reason to do swapping your +2 for a feat is you can start with a racial feat

Which custom lineage RAW cannot do.

Kane0

2022-02-25, 03:35 PM

Which custom lineage RAW cannot do.

Especially if you want to take a feat that relies on racial features like dragon fear or orcish fury.

Lunali

2022-02-25, 06:30 PM

It's not diversity when you have a party of Custom Lineage elf, Custom Lineage gnome, Custom Lineage dwarf, Custom Lineage halfling, Custom Lineage goblin. They are all Custom Lineage.

If all you care about is the mechanics of the races, then yes, they are all the same. But if all you care about is the mechanics of the races, you are one of the players you're upset about.

Witty Username

2022-02-25, 08:35 PM

A 14 in a stat means using one of your two highest ability scores or an ability modifier with standard array. Even with PB it's not cheap. And yeah you can dump wis if you want but that's like dumping Int on an EK, a pretty non-optimal choice.

Kinda, how much wis matters depends alot on the subclass. As a general rule Ranger doesn't get much other than multiclassing from wis. EK has the issue that about half its spells require saves or attack rolls.

My point was that AC concerns for the barbarian are more or less in the same spot as Ranger, in fact a bit more so since Ranger gets access to the defensive style. In short a barb will need 14 dex or have problems with AC.

Gurgeh

2022-02-25, 08:46 PM

If a player wants to run a Mountain Dwarf Wizard, I have to ask why Mountain Dwarf? The answer is usually medium armor. Okay, the price you pay for medium armor is no Int bonus. So, to avoid paying the price the player goes with a not-a-dwarf stat blob. Well, that's mountain or dwarf.
I appreciate your dislike, but Custom Lineage can't do this.

You can't get medium armour with custom lineage. It doesn't let you pick and choose the benefits of an existing race while also making their stat gains fungible, it is its own thing with its own rules, and none of them let you accomplish the thing you're complaining about there. If a player wants to make a "dwarf" using the custom lineage rules then they'll get +2 to one stat, a feat, and a choice of darkvision or a skill proficiency. Medium armour can technically be gained if they burn their feat on Moderately Armoured, but a wizard won't be able to do that that because it needs light armour proficiency which wizards don't have. So they're back to the non-Mountain-Dwarf road of multiclassing or burning two feats to get their medium armour proficiency.

Pex

2022-02-25, 08:59 PM

I appreciate your dislike, but Custom Lineage can't do this.

You can't get medium armour with custom lineage. It doesn't let you pick and choose the benefits of an existing race while also making their stat gains fungible, it is its own thing with its own rules, and none of them let you accomplish the thing you're complaining about there. If a player wants to make a "dwarf" using the custom lineage rules then they'll get +2 to one stat, a feat, and a choice of darkvision or a skill proficiency. Medium armour can technically be gained if they burn their feat on Moderately Armoured, but a wizard won't be able to do that that because it needs light armour proficiency which wizards don't have. So they're back to the non-Mountain-Dwarf road of multiclassing or burning two feats to get their medium armour proficiency.

Probably confusing it with the Floating ASI rules where you can be a mountain dwarf wizard with medium armor, +2 IN, and +2 DX or CO player preference. Floating ASI rules do not prevent diversity, but they do obsolete regular human. Different topic and thread.

Tanarii

2022-02-26, 12:15 AM

Better yet, call them Gnomes (sub race of dwarves) and then get rid of the entire gnome 'race' and clean up the game.
*Korvin ducks as the gnome advocates launch catapults full of overripe vegetables in this direction*How dare you! 5e is the best thing to happen to gnomes since dragonlance and wow ruined them! If you want to pick on a race 5e ruined the reputation of, go pick on halflings.

Not that halflings are any better as Wizards. :smallamused:

My point was that AC concerns for the barbarian are more or less in the same spot as Ranger, in fact a bit more so since Ranger gets access to the defensive style. In short a barb will need 14 dex or have problems with AC.
Barbarians don't care that much about "problems with AC" though, at least not 1-2 points of it from Dex 14 vs Dex 10-12, unlike a Str-anger who feels the missing 1-2 points from heavy armor even with Dex 14. That's the point. They get by really well on Con and well timed rages for their defensive needs. It's nice but not very painful.

diplomancer

2022-02-26, 01:19 AM

If all you care about is the mechanics of the races, then yes, they are all the same. But if all you care about is the mechanics of the races, you are one of the players you're upset about.

On a well designed race, the mechanics of the race support the fluff. Dropping the mechanic and keeping the fluff is a jarring disconnection, if you care at all about the story. It has nothing to do with "only caring about the mechanics of the races"

DarknessEternal

2022-02-26, 07:33 AM

How dare you! 5e is the best thing to happen to gnomes.

If only, they're a dumpster fire.

CapnWildefyr

2022-02-26, 08:34 AM

I appreciate your dislike, but Custom Lineage can't do this.

You can't get medium armour with custom lineage. It doesn't let you pick and choose the benefits of an existing race while also making their stat gains fungible, it is its own thing with its own rules, and none of them let you accomplish the thing you're complaining about there. If a player wants to make a "dwarf" using the custom lineage rules then they'll get +2 to one stat, a feat, and a choice of darkvision or a skill proficiency. Medium armour can technically be gained if they burn their feat on Moderately Armoured, but a wizard won't be able to do that that because it needs light armour proficiency which wizards don't have. So they're back to the non-Mountain-Dwarf road of multiclassing or burning two feats to get their medium armour proficiency.

Thanks! +1 from me FWIW. Like you, the way I read it, custom lineage does not modify an existing race. I see custom lineage as being more like "but I want to play a half-troll half-gnome!" (A trome? Or is that where gnolls came from?)

KorvinStarmast

2022-02-26, 09:42 AM

How dare you! 5e is the best thing to happen to gnomes since dragonlance and wow ruined them! The Svirf existing at all only fits if the entire campaign is played in the underdark. IIRC they trace back to EGG's original Drow modules. Not every 'bright idea' needs to see print. :smallyuk:

If you want to pick on a race 5e ruined the reputation of, go pick on halflings. I'd be more than happy to excise them from the game, and I played a lot of hobbits/halflings over the years.

Segev

2022-02-28, 02:09 AM

Pex

2022-02-28, 02:40 AM

I'd like to circle back around to something touched on a few pages ago, but which - if responded to - I missed the further discussion of.

What, precisely, is a character with Custom Lineage? Just how "variant" can it get? Is it a goblin? Obviously not; there is a goblin race. So, then, is it a Thri-Kreen? Probably not; it doesn't have four arms and qualifies as a humanoid, unless I miss my guess. Is it a Salamander? Again, it's not an elemental, and it lacks any fire-resistance traits. Or was I wrong? Is it a goblin, just...a weird goblin? Is it a human with darkvision but still human? Is it a drow without darkvision and without the ability to take elf feats?

What is it actually meant to represent? What is a "custom lineage" character supposed to look like in a game? I know, I know, "all sorts of things, that's why it's custom!" is an answer, but is it literally meant to represent any monster you could want to play, just represent it poorly, or is it meant to represent a subset of creatures? Or is it meant to represent races that already have stats but where the player just doesn't like them?

I can't speak for fluff, but I think it's meant to be used instead of the floating ASIs rules. It's the normal rules and Custom Lineage, not Floating ASIs and Custom Lineage. If Floating ASIs is not enough for you then there's nothing left to say. There's nothing wrong if you really, really want that feat. Play Variant Human. If you would play Variant Human anyway but have a preference for Custom Lineage as Variant Variant Human because you want the darkvision and/or that +2 is more important to you than +1/+1 perhaps because you'd like the 18 with a half-feat, that's fine too. If you want that and say you're an elf or gnome or halfling, then say I'm saying badwrongfun if you want but I think that's a bridge too far. Credulity is lost. I support enjoying game mechanics, but that's trying to game the system and Win D&D. When it's normal rules and Custom Lineage then Custom Lineage is fine to represent a non-published race or even a non-PHB race if applicable. For example, the player and DM are fine with exploring Yuanti culture, but the DM thinks their magic resistance is too powerful so Custom Lineage is used instead and the PC is a Yuanti Pureblood of the gameworld.

Kane0

2022-02-28, 02:46 AM

I always assumed some kind of vaguely humanoid mannueqiun coated with clay, shaped, colored and dressed to fit in with whatever society it hails from.

Tanarii

2022-02-28, 03:26 AM

I always assumed some kind of vaguely humanoid mannueqiun coated with clay, shaped, colored and dressed to fit in with whatever society it hails from.
Clearly they're all actually Doppelgängers.

Amnestic

2022-02-28, 04:43 AM

What is it actually meant to represent?

Instead of choosing one of the game's races for your character at 1st level, you can use the following traits to represent your character's lineage, giving you full control over how your character's origin shaped them:
- Tasha's

So generally seem to me to be aimed at cross-breed races that aren't printed (such as half-dwarves) or people with a great-great grandfather on one side of the family who was outside of the norm - a human with a distant elf relation, not enough to be a half-elf but maybe enough to have better-than-average darkvision.

Segev

2022-02-28, 08:25 AM

- Tasha's

So generally seem to me to be aimed at cross-breed races that aren't printed (such as half-dwarves) or people with a great-great grandfather on one side of the family who was outside of the norm - a human with a distant elf relation, not enough to be a half-elf but maybe enough to have better-than-average darkvision.

So... a half-elf/half-dwarf whose only trait from either parent is darkvision, and has a bonus feat, but no ability to take dwarven or elven racial feats and no stonecunning, no elven bonus to perception, etc.? Or a half-halfling/half-gnome who may or may not have darkvision (fair enough) but, if he doesn't, gets a human-like bonus skill proficiency rather than anything halfling-like at all, and who lacks any luck racial features and any of the ability to tinker or make friends with small animals from their gnome parentage, but gets a feat (as long as it's not any sort of racial feat, e.g. halfling or gnomish, especially since they wouldn't have halfling luck to enhance in the first place)?

I say that kind-of derisively, but in all seriousness, is that what the intent was for a "Custom Lineage" to represent? Is it just that they did a supremely bad job representing it, then?

Bitterspirit

2022-02-28, 08:36 AM

I think using Custom Lineage as a means to replicate an already-existing PC option isn't the best way to implement the option. I wanted to play a character who was 'part Water Genasi' and tried to do that with the CL option, but nothing felt as satisfying as when I just picked Water Genasi and flavoured in that it was a lineage thing.

I think CL works best in gimmicky games, ones where maybe everybody's playing a Christmas Elf, action stars on the set of a fantasy movie that's gotten a lot more real whilst filming, anything that can give a Player some numbers and abilities to execute a character not easily covered by what's in the PHB, or just necessitates a simpler approach that doesn't need everything a standard PC race has.

Amnestic

2022-02-28, 08:45 AM

I say that kind-of derisively, but in all seriousness, is that what the intent was for a "Custom Lineage" to represent? Is it just that they did a supremely bad job representing it, then?

It seems to be the intent, yes. As a stopgap measure to help DMs not have to invent a whole new race it's 'fine'. Not 'great', but 'fine'. Certainly not broken. Frankly I think racial feats should be allowed on CL since that's kind of the point of a custom lineage? But then I also allow racial feats for every race regardless of what you're playing so idk if I'm the best person to speak on the topic.

GooeyChewie

2022-02-28, 08:53 AM

I'd like to circle back around to something touched on a few pages ago, but which - if responded to - I missed the further discussion of.

What, precisely, is a character with Custom Lineage? Just how "variant" can it get? Is it a goblin? Obviously not; there is a goblin race. So, then, is it a Thri-Kreen? Probably not; it doesn't have four arms and qualifies as a humanoid, unless I miss my guess. Is it a Salamander? Again, it's not an elemental, and it lacks any fire-resistance traits. Or was I wrong? Is it a goblin, just...a weird goblin? Is it a human with darkvision but still human? Is it a drow without darkvision and without the ability to take elf feats?

What is it actually meant to represent? What is a "custom lineage" character supposed to look like in a game? I know, I know, "all sorts of things, that's why it's custom!" is an answer, but is it literally meant to represent any monster you could want to play, just represent it poorly, or is it meant to represent a subset of creatures? Or is it meant to represent races that already have stats but where the player just doesn't like them?

I understand it to be a stand-in for humanoid races which the players (including the DM) would like to see in the game but which don't exist. Thri-Kreen is little too far out with the extra limbs, but you could make a character with the Elemental Adept (Fire) feat and call it a Salamanderfolk. It's not a perfect fit, but it sort of works. Salamander is a bit too much of a stretch; refluffing Fire Genasi would probably work better than CL in this case. But CL does work fairly well for more mundane creations that don't need such specific traits, like Dogfolk.

Whatever the intent, I find that it usually gets used as "human-ish, but with a +2 instead of two +1s, and maybe with Darkvision and/or a slightly odd appearance." I wish WotC had included a couple of examples to help communicate the idea that CL is an outlet for your creativity rather than an arbitrary bundle of stats.

Segev

2022-02-28, 08:56 AM

I understand it to be a stand-in for humanoid races which the players (including the DM) would like to see in the game but which don't exist. Thri-Kreen is little too far out with the extra limbs, but you could make a character with the Elemental Adept (Fire) feat and call it a Salamanderfolk. It's not a perfect fit, but it sort of works. Salamander is a bit too much of a stretch; refluffing Fire Genasi would probably work better than CL in this case. But CL does work fairly well for more mundane creations that don't need such specific traits, like Dogfolk.Heck, despite the fact that kobolds have moved to being dragon-kin rather than dogfolk, kobolds as printed (minus the light sensitivity) would've been a better fit for "dogfolk" than Custom Lineage - pack tactics is pretty spot-on!

Custom Lineage seems to me to always be better done by taking an existing race's mechanics and refluffing, if not using a race that is so far outside the bounds that Custom Lineage does at least as bad a job of modeling it as an existing race would.

Whatever the intent, I find that it usually gets used as "human-ish, but with a +2 instead of two +1s, and maybe with Darkvision and/or a slightly odd appearance." I wish WotC had included a couple of examples to help communicate the idea that CL is an outlet for your creativity rather than an arbitrary bundle of stats.I can't help but suspect that it was slapped together with no vision whatsoever. :smallannoyed:

KorvinStarmast

2022-02-28, 09:11 AM

I can't help but suspect that it was slapped together with no vision whatsoever. :smallannoyed: But darkvision is an option. :smallbiggrin: (I agree with your assessment).

Segev

2022-02-28, 09:21 AM

But darkvision is an option. :smallbiggrin: (I agree with your assessment).

Well played, sir, well played. :smallbiggrin:

Xoronis

2022-02-28, 05:22 PM

So... a half-elf/half-dwarf whose only trait from either parent is darkvision, and has a bonus feat, but no ability to take dwarven or elven racial feats and no stonecunning, no elven bonus to perception, etc.? Or a half-halfling/half-gnome who may or may not have darkvision (fair enough) but, if he doesn't, gets a human-like bonus skill proficiency rather than anything halfling-like at all, and who lacks any luck racial features and any of the ability to tinker or make friends with small animals from their gnome parentage, but gets a feat (as long as it's not any sort of racial feat, e.g. halfling or gnomish, especially since they wouldn't have halfling luck to enhance in the first place)?

I say that kind-of derisively, but in all seriousness, is that what the intent was for a "Custom Lineage" to represent? Is it just that they did a supremely bad job representing it, then?

I feel like the feat is supposed to be taken into consideration as part of building the unique lineage. For example, if I was using it to make a playable Succubus, I'd take Magic Initiate with my feat to get Charm Person, or Skill Expert to get expertise in persuasion. If DM's are willing to try and enforce that the player needs some kind of racially motivated reason as to why they have their feat, it helps make it more interesting than the stat blob.