How to optimize my Guardian Armorer tank ?

[Thesta]

Greetings, O lorekeepers!

… Ahem. Yeah. Let’s keep it simple.

Hi everyone! :smallsmile: I’m currently playing a Loxodon Artificer that just reached level 3. My goal is to make a support character able to help the party without overshadowing anyone; that means I intend to buff my friends, to provide them with magic items tailored to their needs, and to keep them alive. To that end, I’m thinking of going Armorer, mainly Guardian for the Thunder Gauntlet’s mechanic. That would allow me to 1) help everyone enjoy the game and 2) be an elephant clad in power armor, which is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

With that said, I’m kinda struggling to build a coherent character, and any help would be most welcome. I have a few questions which revolve mainly around tanking and sorting things out:

1) Does the Guardian’s low damage lessens its effectiveness as a tank, or is the Gauntlet’s debuff enough of a pain that the enemies won’t just ignore my character?
2) In terms of tanking style, is it better to grab the Mobile feat for hit-and-run tactics, or to pick Skill Expert (Athletics) and go for a Grappler style leveraging the Loxodon’s Trunk?
3) Would the Booming Blade + Warcaster combo really be worth it here considering I’ll have several uses for my Reaction and all it does is increase damage?
4) Should I pick Sharpshooter at 16/19 to combine with the Enhanced Infiltrator's boost in accuracy? Having decent at-will ranged damage could be a nice addition to my arsenal (and I also intend to make good use of TSARs if when I get there).
5) What feats and infusions would you advise?


Party composition and roles:
- A Halfling Rogue (Ranged DPS and skill monkey, subclass TBD)
- A Dragonborn Conquest Paladin (Frontliner/Face)
- A Firbolg Land (?) Druid. Not sure of how he’ll chose to play yet.
- A VHuman Necromancer (a CHA-based, homebrewed, death-themed sorcerer whom I’d wager will focus on damage and minonmancy).

Stats: 14 STR, 14 DEX, 15 CON, 18 INT, 8 WIS, 12 CHA

Spell selection : Guidance, Mending / Bless, Cure Wounds, Disguise Self, Grease, Faerie Fire, Sanctuary

Planned Feats : Fey-Touched (Bless)@1*, Aberrant Dragonmark @4 ( for Shield and 16 CON), Max INT@8, Skill Expert/Mobile@12, Sharpshooter @16, Lucky ( ?) @19

Infusions : Bag of Holding, Goggles of Night, Homonculus Servant, Spellwrought Tattoo (Gift of Alacrity)

*Our DM generously let us start with a free half-feat. I ended up choosing Fey-Touched with Bless, even though Dissonant Whispers REALLY appealed to me.

Additional info: I would not be against multiclassing (possibly Chronurgist Wizard or Divine Soul Sorcerer later) but I'd still prefer to remain straight-classed on the off-chance we're reaching 20. I would also rather go with Armorer instead of Battlesmith.



Side note: English is not my native tongue, so I apologize for the occasional mistake. Please feel free to correct me, I’ll be happy to learn.

Thank you for reading!

[stoutstien]

I think it'd be just fine. Your personal damage might not be all that high but party-wise you look well above the curve. On the mitigation front the disadvantage from your gauntlet strikes and concentrating on a buff/debuff are decent soft options. Artificiers tend to favor flexibility so I'd avoid fixating on one tactic too much.

If your party is going to use area damage effects like spike growth then I'd go for the grapple angle.

[Keravath]

One thing you may want to plan on in the long run is resilient wisdom. The -1 to wisdom saves may really hurt when it comes to late tier2, tier 3 and 4 where spell casting opponents and other magical effects become more common.

If an opponent targets you with a fear effect you will be running away unless you are within 10 feet of the paladin and they are level 10+.

Other wisdom save effects like charm, dominate etc will be hard to resist with a -1 or +4 within 10' of your paladin friend. With resilient wisdom, this goes to +5/+10 in tier 4 which gives you a much better chance of making the save. Combining with another 1/2 feat would let you boost wisdom to 10 giving you an extra +1 to wis saves.

Anyway, something to consider.

[solidork]

I'm currently playing a Shifter Armorer who took Skill Expert(Athletics) to be good at grappling and I've found it to be pretty effective. It would be particularly neat to try that build with a Loxodon since you can grapple with your trunk. I went with a somewhat unoptimized build that has 14 strength because I pictured my character a relatively big and strong guy, and between Armor of Magical Strength and Flash of Genius my Athletics check can be truly astronomical. Its excellent when our initatives line up right and our Battlemaster can knock an enemy prone and then I can grapple them to keep them down, but I've had pretty good success with shoving prone and grappling as a way to both prevent damage and increase our own damage. It'll take a while to come online, but you have a pretty similarly effective combo with your Conquest Paladin - he can fear them (reducing their speed to 0) and then you can shove them prone.

How effective of a tank you are depends on a lot of things, some of which are mechanical and some of which aren't really determined by game rules but by how the DM decides to roleplay each creature. If the AC disparity between you and your allies is high enough then they might still be more likely to hit them than you. Are they afraid of the intimidating armored character and focus on them because of that, or do they realize that they're unlikely to hit you and focus on lower AC allies?

I have been a little disappointed with the Thunder Gauntlets, but maybe I've just been unlucky - we've been fighting Sahaguin, who basically always have advantage, and spent a lot of time underwater where I had disadvantage with my punches due to a lack of swim speed.

There have been a few "epic" tanking moments - one boss fight where I grappled the boss away from everyone else and then negated several turns of attacks+legendary actions with Mirror Image and Sanctuary. Another fight where I clogged a hallway and survived for a long time against some very dangerous attackers - between dodging and Sanctuary, they were extremely unlikely to hit me. Most recently we were confronted with a long dark hallway with archers at the end, and I terminator walked down it with Sanctuary up - negating every attack. Then there are the numerous combats where Web just locked up half of the enemies for most of the fight, allowing us to fight them piecemeal and easily clean them up.

I didn't plan ahead to have the instrument proficiency in order to use Pipes of Haunting, something that would make me substantially more powerful than I am, but I'm still feeling pretty strong. Those pipes might be pretty good on your Conquest Paladin eventually, so keep that in mind. We've got a Battlemaster Fighter and a Land Druid in our party and I've been kind of disappointed that I don't get anything back on a short rest besides Shifting. A lot of the time I don't even need to spend hit dice because of my temporary hit points and high AC.

Your at will damage isn't really that much lower than a sword and board fighter, but your nova is a lot less.

You're right to be skeptical about Warcaster+Booming Blade, though the threat of the damage is (maybe) more signficant than the actual increase in damage, since it'll encourage enemies to stay near you so as to avoid taking the damage.

I've been tempted strongly by Sentinel and Dual Wielder to try and get a 3rd attack and apply Thunder Gauntlets more but the truth of the matter is that Artificer already has such a saturated action economy I've been putting it off. This will be even more true if you pick up Shield. Fey Touched(Bless) is a good choice, I was strongly tempted by it when we hit level 8 a few sessions ago, but I couldn't justify it in the fiction and that was important to me. I'm not a big fan of the Mobile option, mostly because standing in melee and occupying space is such a big deal. I don't really find myself switching between Guardian and Infiltrator much (I've exclusively used Guardian) so I'm leery about Sharpshooter, but by the time you get to that level you'll know yourself how much use you'll get out of it.

[RogueJK]

1) Does the Guardian’s low damage lessens its effectiveness as a tank

"Tanking" isn't about dealing massive damage, or just having a high AC and a pile of HP. It's about having ways to make the enemy focus their attacks on you rather than squishier/easier to hit allies.

And the Thunder Gaunlets have such a mechanism built in.

You can add to that with additional tanking mechanisms, such as Sentinel to force an enemy to stay near you and further punish them for attacking anyone but you, or Warcaster+Booming Blade to discouraging them from moving away. Of the two, I'd go with Sentinel in this situation, especially since you have a melee Paladin ally that you can stick near in combat to help trigger your Sentinel reaction attack. (You won't have enough spell slots to be using Shield every turn, so this gives you an additional ready use for your Reaction.)

This Tank role lets you be the "attack/damage sponge", making yourself the focus of many attacks while protecting yourself with your defensive spells and Temp HP, while your party's Paladin and Rogue focus on dealing the big damage through melee Smites and ranged Sneak Attacks.



2) In terms of tanking style, is it better to grab the Mobile feat for hit-and-run tactics

While a kiting/hit-and-run Tank can be effective in certain situations and with certain builds, such as a thrown weapon Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, that's unlikely to be the best plan for your current party, especially since there's already one other frontliner in the party.

Instead, in this case I'd plan to stick to the front lines near the Paladin, giving enemies Disadvantage and triggering Sentinel's reaction attack if they decide to try to attack the Paladin instead. This will have the added benefit of keeping you within the Paladin's Aura of Protection, which not only helps your saves against enemy spells/effects but also boosts your Concentration checks. And you have a high AC and access to a number of defensive spells and Temp HP, to make staying put on the front lines totally viable.

[Aalbatr0ss]

Greetings, O lorekeepers!

… Ahem. Yeah. Let’s keep it simple.

Hi everyone! I’m currently playing a Loxodon Artificer that just reached level 3. My goal is to make a support character able to help the party without overshadowing anyone; that means I intend to buff my friends, to provide them with magic items tailored to their needs, and to keep them alive. To that end, I’m thinking of going Armorer, mainly Guardian for the Thunder Gauntlet’s mechanic. That would allow me to 1) help everyone enjoy the game and 2) be an elephant clad in power armor, which is awesome.

With that said, I’m kinda struggling to build a coherent character, and any help would be most welcome. I have a few questions which revolve mainly around tanking and sorting things out:
1) Does the Guardian’s low damage lessens its effectiveness as a tank, or is the Gauntlet’s debuff enough of a pain that the enemies won’t just ignore my character?
2) In terms of tanking style, is it better to grab the Mobile feat for hit-and-run tactics, or to pick Skill Expert (Athletics) and go for a Grappler style leveraging the Loxodon’s Trunk?

Thank you for reading!

I've been playing an armorer for 30 sessions/last 8 months. Just got to L10. This isn't specific to the loxodon build, which is interesting, but this is a great subclass for the goals you've laid out.

1) The gauntlet's debuff means it doesn't matter as much if they're ignoring your character. If they ignore you they attack the others with disadvantage, so you're still kind of tanking.
2) Mobile, then maxing INT is really nice with your party composition. Once your paladin gets engaged with biggest enemy, you can tag it for disadvantage, then run off and do the same to whatever's going after your wizard / rogue. If you can hit the 2 nastiest enemies every round you're helping the party a lot right there whether you draw the attacks or not.

I'm usually casting a tactical spell like web/faerie fire in round 1, but bless would be fantastic.
I've found this approach is fun even without a ton of damage. Your party composition is similar to mine, and I've been a lot more effective at enabling damage in the rest of the party than dishing it out myself.

I haven't really tried a grappler build, but it seems better suited to small groups of enemies. I expect you'll have a lot of fun with this build either way. You could try syncing up with the rogue and really help them shine.


One thing you may want to plan on in the long run is resilient wisdom. The -1 to wisdom saves may really hurt when it comes to late tier2, tier 3 and 4 where spell casting opponents and other magical effects become more common.

If an opponent targets you with a fear effect you will be running away unless you are within 10 feet of the paladin and they are level 10+.

Other wisdom save effects like charm, dominate etc will be hard to resist with a -1 or +4 within 10' of your paladin friend. With resilient wisdom, this goes to +5/+10 in tier 4 which gives you a much better chance of making the save. Combining with another 1/2 feat would let you boost wisdom to 10 giving you an extra +1 to wis saves.

Anyway, something to consider.

Yes. Being dominated while wearing the thunder gauntlets is bad news!
Once you hit level 7 you get Flash of Genius which helps. If you can see a possible wisdom save coming at that level, having a paladin to duck behind is also very nice as these effects stack. By level 9 you have intellect fortress, which is a terrible waste of a 3rd level prep/slot UNLESS you really need it. That gets you to L12, at which point resilient wisdom is a really good idea.

[Silpharon]

1) Does the Guardian’s low damage lessens its effectiveness as a tank, or is the Gauntlet’s debuff enough of a pain that the enemies won’t just ignore my character?

I have heard folks with higher level Guardian experience say they were ignored because of low damage. As such, I recommend the following:

Use Haste to get another attack, +2 AC, and more movement
Use Mirror Image in your Spell Storing Item, and use it with your haste action if you're running low on illusions.
Get the dueling weapon style (via Fighting Initiate feat or multiclassing). This will give a small damage boost. Edit: or Two Weapon Fighting if using the Dual Wielder feat.
Split your attacks against multiple enemies to spread the disadvantage. Or, if you're against a single BBEG, use Booming Blade and/or grapple/shove (see below for options).
Use your Homunculus Servant on bonus action (edit: or Dual Wielder offhand) for some extra damage.
Use enhanced weapon of course. If you're open to multiclassing, you can do other things to get more damage.



2) In terms of tanking style, is it better to grab the Mobile feat for hit-and-run tactics, or to pick Skill Expert (Athletics) and go for a Grappler style leveraging the Loxodon’s Trunk?

Grappling would be good if there are only one or two enemies. Otherwise, you want to spread the thunder gauntlets disadvantage. As for Mobile, here's a wild counterpoint: maybe you want to draw out enemy's reactions... You have high AC, and if Mirror Image is up, chances are low you'd be hit. Now those reactions can't be spent on worse things for your friends.


3) Would the Booming Blade + Warcaster combo really be worth it here considering I’ll have several uses for my Reaction and all it does is increase damage?

Not at all in my opinion.


4) Should I pick Sharpshooter at 16/19 to combine with the Enhanced Infiltrator's boost in accuracy? Having decent at-will ranged damage could be a nice addition to my arsenal (and I also intend to make good use of TSARs if when I get there).

I really like Infiltrator builds, and I've written about them in a few threads on this forum. Typically, yes Sharpshooter is excellent on an Infiltrator. That said, I don't think you should get it if you're wanting to focus on Guardian mode. Switching armor modes requires a short rest, so it'd be hard to decide against Guardian mode before knowing what you're up against.

As for TSAR, be sure to use the Elemental Bane (thunder) plus Shatter on the SSI combo. Upcast Tiny Servants to get 5 of them. Then you've got two rounds of 5*(3d8+2d6) damage (102.5 avg if saves fail) before even considering your turn.


5) What feats and infusions would you advise?

Feats:

Aberrant Dragonmark, I think only if you single class is this worth it
Crusher, if you dip Genie Earth Warlock
Duel Wielder, suggested by Frogreaver, great option to use both fists with two weapon fighting
Fey Touched, with Bless or Silvery Barbs
Fighting Initiate, useful, but not awesome
Lucky, it's just great
Mage Slayer, could be flavorful and useful for you
Resilient Wisdom for protection against bad spells
Ritual Caster, Wizard, can provide some great utility for your team
Sentinel, this can force enemies to not ignore you by making their movement 0 on opportunity attack. The interposed attack also comes before an enemy's attack, meaning you can add disadvantage to the incoming attack on your buddy.
Shield Master, tied with Armor of Magical Strength, and now you can knock enemies prone as a bonus action (or away to avoid opportunity attack)
Skill Expert Athletics as you mentioned for grappling is good, but just grab athletics proficiency from a race or background instead. You can stack Armor of Magical Strength with Flash of Genius to ensure a successful grapple.
Telekinetic, good to disengage your allies


Infusions:

Armor of Magical Strength, paired with Shield Master or for grapples. At level 10 replace with Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and at 14 with Belt of Hill Giant Strength.
Enhanced Weapon and Defense
Mind Sharpener, but likely given to an ally
Homunculus Servant is excellent for a vast array of activities. If you get a Ring of Spell Storing, give it to him with 5 instances of Bless.
Spell Storing Tattoo with Gift of Alacrity
Spell Storing Tattoo with Find Familiar
Gauntlets of Ogre Power / Belt of Hill Giant Strength
Winged Boots
Gem of Truesight
Amulet of Health
Ring of Free Action

There are lots of other situational ones...



Multiclassing...
There are a lot of options here.

Consider Chronurgy Wizard (2 levels). Get Shield, Silvery Barbs, and Gift of Alacrity. It's also helpful to have lower level spells prepared even if you have them on the Artificer list, like Absorb Elements and Feather Fall. Take it to 5th level for Spirit Shroud and you will not be ignored, especially if upcast to 7th level. An Armorer 15/Chronurgy Wizard 5 build could work for that...

Consider Conquest Paladin (3 levels). You get Dueling style, Bless, Armor of Agathys, and Divine Smite. An upcast AoA can make you a giant pain to your enemies. Divine Smite can land extra damage to make you less ignorable. Edit: missed that you already had one of these on your team. Maybe skip this one then.

Consider Psi Warrior Fighter (3 levels). You get Dueling Style, Action Surge, and the Psi skills that use your int. The damage block is especially good and scales well (in number of uses) into the late game.

Consider Genie Earth Warlock (1 level). You get AoA and +pb damage 1/turn. Combine with Crusher to move someone you hit with the damage. Use the vessel to hold your buff Glyph of Wardings (you have a lot of buff spells you can put in these!), then activate them before a fight for concentration free buffs.

Consider Divine Soul Sorcerer (1 level) for Bless, FBTG, Shield, Healing Word, and a lot of cantrips. If you take it to level 3, grab Quicken metamagic to Booming Blade as a bonus action (or Web/Hypnotic Pattern, etc.). Also can grab Prayer of Healing and Silence. 5th level provides a reaction free ability check reroll, Counterspell, and Spirit Shroud. You will not be ignored if you've got Spirit Shroud rolling, especially if upcast to 7th level. An Armorer 15/Divine Soul Sorc 5 build is awesome for that!



Side note: English is not my native tongue, so I apologize for the occasional mistake. Please feel free to correct me, I’ll be happy to learn.


Your English is excellent; I would have never known it was a second language. What's your primary language?

[Silpharon]

Edit: Changing these based on Frogreaver's great Dual Wielder suggestion

As for builds, this could work for single class:
4: Aberrant Dragonmark (Booming Blade and Shield)
8: Int+2
12: Dual Wielder
16: Lucky (use it on bad Wisdom saves)
19: Sentinel

For multiclass, since you already have Bless, consider:

Armorer 15/Chronurgy Wizard 5:
4: Int+2
8: Dual Wielder
12: Sentinel
Wiz 4: Lucky (use it on bad Wisdom saves)

Take Spirit Shroud at 5th Wizard level, and make your fists be heard!

Armorer 16/Psi Warrior 3/Wizard 1:
4: Int+2
8: Dual Wielder
12: Sentinel
16: Lucky (use it on bad Wisdom saves)

Use Protective Field to help your allies; pick up Dueling fighting style for more damage.

Armorer 17/Genie Warlock 1/Chronurgy Wizard 2:
4: Int+2
8: Crusher (Constitution)
12: Sentinel
16: Lucky (use it on bad Wisdom saves)

Extra damage and pair Crusher's movement with Booming Blade. Now your melee enemy can't attack anyone without taking the extra BB damage. Upcast AoA to make attacking you a pain. Walk through enemies to provoke opportunity attacks.

[Frogreaver]

I might be mistaken but doesn't the dual wielder feat open up a bonus action attack with the Armorer's thunder gauntlets?

[PhantomSoul]

I might be mistaken but doesn't the dual wielder feat open up a bonus action attack with the Armorer's thunder gauntlets?

It's one of those "talk to your DM" things based on internet discussions; I'd expect it to be allowed, but they basically have to confirm that you wield the gauntlets in your hands.

[Silpharon]

I might be mistaken but doesn't the dual wielder feat open up a bonus action attack with the Armorer's thunder gauntlets?

Yeah, good call. I forgot that adds +1 AC, that helps with the loss of a shield. Two Weapon fighting style would add more damage than Dueling with two attacks anyway. Still,. the Homunculus Servant will deal similar damage (or more unless you have Two Weapon Fighting). So this probably isn't worth it for damage, but maybe to spread even more disadvantage for large groups of enemies.

[Frogreaver]

Yeah, good call. I forgot that adds +1 AC, that helps with the loss of a shield. Two Weapon fighting style would add more damage than Dueling with two attacks anyway. Still,. the Homunculus Servant will deal similar damage (or more unless you have Two Weapon Fighting). So this probably isn't worth it for damage, but maybe to spread even more disadvantage for large groups of enemies.

You would give up Homunculus - a fairly low hp, low ac and short ranged pet that you can only summon once per day. I wouldn't be confident about it's damage being anywhere near reliable.

Spreading Disadvantage around to more enemies would be the biggest advantage though IMO.

[Silpharon]

You would give up Homunculus - a fairly low hp, low ac and short ranged pet that you can only summon once per day. I wouldn't be confident about it's damage being anywhere near reliable.

Spreading Disadvantage around to more enemies would be the biggest advantage though IMO.

Well, the nice thing is you can have both and choose which one to use.

I could see Dual Wielding being good for combos with Haste. E.g., first turn: cast Haste, move, Haste action attack, move, bonus action attack. Subsequent rounds you can get another spell off (or a booming blade) then get two attacks in as well. Yeah, this is looking good!

[Willowhelm]

This looks like it would be a lot of fun.

https://youtu.be/wAwxMq_V5_g

[Thesta]

… Wow. I’ll admit that I didn’t expect so many detailed answers in such a short time. Many thanks to all of you for your insights, this will be extremely helpful! I’ll try to reply to everyone, sorry for the delay.


One thing you may want to plan on in the long run is resilient wisdom. The -1 to wisdom saves may really hurt when it comes to late tier2, tier 3 and 4 where spell casting opponents and other magical effects become more common.

Yes. Being dominated while wearing the thunder gauntlets is bad news!

That’s a very valid point. While I expect Loxodon Serenity to help me out a bit (and I’ll keep Intellect Fortress in mind), this -1 is still dangerous and charm effects doth SUCK. I simply cannot afford to pass on a decent WIS save. Alright, that’s one feat locked, thank you for your help! :smallsmile:


I'm currently playing a Shifter Armorer who took Skill Expert(Athletics) […]
Before opening this thread, I had never heard directly from an Artificer player before, much less an Armorer, so this kind of experience-based feedback is a huuuge help. This is interesting; I didn’t think that a character with high AC would get much mileage out of Mirror Image (seeing as most attacks are likely to miss anyway), but it looks like it was well worth the spell slot for you. I might give it a try!


Absolutely epic examples of tanking

This sounds AWESOME, and it’s exactly the kind of things I’d like to do! :smallbiggrin: Do you usually keep Sanctuary for yourself, or is it as effective when cast on an ally?


About Pipes of Haunting

I’ve seen this combo mentioned on a few builds here, but I’m a little fuzzy on the specifics. Since Aura of Conquest only works on targets that are directly frightened by the Paladin, does that mean that the Paladin should get proficiency in wind instruments and use it himself for this to work? Am I missing something here?


I'm not a big fan of the Mobile option, mostly because standing in melee and occupying space is such a big deal.


While a kiting/hit-and-run Tank can be effective in certain situations and with certain builds, such as a thrown weapon Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, that's unlikely to be the best plan for your current party, especially since there's already one other frontliner in the party.

As for Mobile, here's a wild counterpoint: maybe you want to draw out enemy's reactions... You have high AC, and if Mirror Image is up, chances are low you'd be hit. Now those reactions can't be spent on worse things for your friends.

Well, consider all my doubts cleared! These are all fair points; I think I’ll be more effective sticking to the frontline near to the Paladin Aura, taking up space and eating up enemy’s reactions. I still intend to move around the battlefield to spread the thunder depending on the situation, but I don’t need Mobile for that; I already have several mobility options and they don’t make me reaction-immune. Sentinel is tempting, but as solidork was saying, Artificers’ action economy is so ripe with options that I’m not sure I can make this work.



Mobile, then maxing INT is really nice with your party composition. Once your paladin gets engaged with biggest enemy, you can tag it for disadvantage, then run off and do the same to whatever's going after your wizard / rogue. If you can hit the 2 nastiest enemies every round you're helping the party a lot right there whether you draw the attacks or not.

While I like this style as well, the other posters have pointed out the downsides of Mobile, and I don’t think I should fear AoO that much if I bolster my defenses beforehand. Aside from that, I think my playstyle will be very similar to yours, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that enabling damage is much better than dishing it out. Jolly cooperation for the win! :smallbiggrin:


Silpharon doing all of my work for me and then some

I know I’m gushing a lot here, but I might have to bookmark this thread because your posts are a gold mine. I’ll be sure to look into the builds you mentioned later as well. I won’t cover your whole post (because I wouldn’t know what to answer besides “you’re right” most of the time), but I sure will remember it. “Thank you for taking the time to write all of that!


As for TSAR, be sure to use the Elemental Bane (thunder) plus Shatter on the SSI combo.

See, that’s a combo I didn’t know existed! It’s a mouth-watering option in term of single (or dual) target damage, although not without its cost. Still, that’s a resounding counterpoint to all claims that Artificers can't dish out damage! This alone would make a 2-level dip in Tempest Cleric almost tempting if I hadn’t dropped Wisdom for RP reasons (and if I didn’t care about my DM’s sanity).


Feats

I think what your list highlights (besides the sheer variety of great choices at my disposal) is that I’d better wait and see how my party is gonna develop before planning all my feat choices in advance. I mean, I’d absolutely LOVE to take Ritual Caster, for instance, but there are already 2 casters in the party that might want to seize it for themselves.

As for Dual-Wielder, I’m a little wary of it for the following reasons: it costs 1 or 2 feats to come online, Shield Master also looks good, I already have a somewhat reliable bonus action with Homonculus Servant, and I’d lose one AC. There’s also the fact that by relinquishing my shield, I’d also have to give up either Enhanced Defense or Armor of Magical Strength, so that’s a tough call. Although I admit that I have never seen it in practice, so my reserves might well be unwarranted here.

For a different feel, Mage Slayer would be great as long as I can get up in the face of the casters, netting me a Reaction attack and even helping with these pesky Wisdom saves!


Infusions
These are all awesome. Lots of goodies to juggle with here… What’s not to love?


Multiclassing
Lots of choices indeed! Of all the options you listed, my favorite might be the Dao Warlock: it is original, very flavorful and Armor of Agathys is an Armorer’s dream come true, especially with temp HP generation padding. The Divine Soul Sorcerer might also be great for more support power (and FBTG is always welcome) even though I already have Bless. The only problem with these two is that I’d have to raise my CHA to 13 to take the dip, but my DM is pretty nice so it shouldn’t be too hard… (and if it is, I’ll just bribe him with an extra shiny new set of dice!) I should note that lenient as he is, the Glyph of Warding trick might still be too powerful for his taste, but apparently there are a lot of other cool things one can do with a Vessel. I’ll gleefully look into that! As for the builds you laid out, I’m still considering each of them, so while they’re well thought-out and diverse, I don’t have anything meaningful to add here. (“What was I thinking, doing all that thinking?” and all that.:smallwink:)


Your English is excellent; I would have never known it was a second language. What's your primary language?
Why, that’s very kind! :smallsmile: I’m grateful that you can’t hear my thick French accent through this text, though, because your ears might spontaneously combust from sheer friction. (I once tried to ask for water seven times at a restaurant and was given a Coke).


You would give up Homunculus - a fairly low hp, low ac and short ranged pet that you can only summon once per day. I wouldn't be confident about it's damage being anywhere near reliable.

Spreading Disadvantage around to more enemies would be the biggest advantage though IMO.

Great addition, thank you Frogreaver! I certainly agree that the Homonculus Servant has less of an impact that an extra Gauntlet strike. I would love to grab that feat if I can manage to take it without giving up too much of what I envisioned in the first place. Decisions, decisions…are not my strong suit, as you might have noticed.

[solidork]

Before opening this thread, I had never heard directly from an Artificer player before, much less an Armorer, so this kind of experience-based feedback is a huuuge help. This is interesting; I didn’t think that a character with high AC would get much mileage out of Mirror Image (seeing as most attacks are likely to miss anyway), but it looks like it was well worth the spell slot for you. I might give it a try!

I don't use it much, but it can be situationally useful - it's at its best if you're up against something that gets one big attack. Also, the thing to keep in mind is that even with an AC of 19-21 you're still going to get hit a fair amount. An AC of that range AND granting disadvantage to attackers is more in the realm of "I'm very hard to hit" - shield will make a significant difference for you, though. Of course, if your GM rolls as many crits as mine does then there is very little that can help you! In our final battle against the Sahaguin we were facing, I got crit and brought down to 1 HP and then our fighter got crit TWICE by the boss in the same turn bringing him to 1 HP.

Another thing to keep in mind is something I mentioned earlier that depends a lot on your GM - the psychology of the opponents you're facing. If you're too hard to hit, enemies might decide to focus on your allies instead. For a while I was using a Shield with the defensive infusion on it, but then I kept ending fights with my party seriously injured while I was still basically at full because of all of my temp HP. Part of this was just rotten luck; its sort of an inside joke that I miss a lot and my Homunculus is some kind of elite sniper who always hits.




This sounds AWESOME, and it’s exactly the kind of things I’d like to do! :smallbiggrin: Do you usually keep Sanctuary for yourself, or is it as effective when cast on an ally?

Using it on an ally without hindering their offense is a little tricky - in an ideal situation they need to go before you and before or after most of the enemies. I've experimented with using Flash of Genius to try and manipulate initiatives a bit to moderate success. Then they can take their turn and do something like attack, you can Sanctuary them on your turn, and then most of the enemies will be hindered. When using it on yourself or on an ally that is in hard survival mode its less situational. It's tricky for me because our party is so small (only 3 of us) and I'm frequently asking myself if its better for the Fighter to attack and possibly kill the enemy or go on the defensive. Often times the calculus comes out to the old adage that the best defense is a good offense, but in a larger group you'd be less reliant on one person's damage.

I really enjoy all the careful deliberation you need to do in order to get the most out of the spell, but you might not. Feels bad when you cast it on an ally only for the enemies to decide to do something other than attack them!



I’ve seen this combo mentioned on a few builds here, but I’m a little fuzzy on the specifics. Since Aura of Conquest only works on targets that are directly frightened by the Paladin, does that mean that the Paladin should get proficiency in wind instruments and use it himself for this to work? Am I missing something here?

If you want to try and abuse it and it's not too much trouble, both of you could consider getting it. You could use it from 3-7 and then hand it off to the paladin once he gets his aura. As I said, I don't have experience using it myself, but it SEEMS like its still very powerful tool to disable enemies for you up until your Paladin can use it better.

One last thing, if you can get your hands on an All Purpose Tool it's insanely good. Getting access to ANY cantrip is a ridiculously good utility ability, and of course the bonus to your save DC/spell attack is excellent.(Remember that it helps your homunculus!)

[stoutstien]

Some general tactics that aren't necessarily related to the subclass but go a long way if you want to focus on party mitigation:

- flash a genius is one of the most versatile and powerful things that you gain access to. Not only can it be used defensively to protect yourself in the party from failing a ill-time to save or ability check it can be used offensively so if you have a party member that really needs to go early in combat you can actually use it on initiative or supercharge their counter spell.

-your homunculus can use adventuring gear. At low levels the ability to turn a little bit of gold into decent crowd control and area denial well stretch out your spell slots and other resources.

-if you have an infusion that regains a number of charges at dawn you can just reinfuse the item and make sure you always get the maximum charges each day.

-at first glance the class looked like a caps out early on but if you're looking to optimize they're one of the best at utilizing and enhancing the entire party. Manufacturing low level scrolls as an example of this. You can make sure the wizards spell book is packed full of all the fun stuff while simultaneously giving everybody a nice buffer stack of utility and healing options yatt frees up prepared slots and spel slots. Artificiers weaponize down time and planning.

-pipes of haunting. I know it's been discussed already but do not underestimate the power of this infusion option. It's a massive area with a decently high DC, concentration free, and is party/ally friendly. If mitigation is your goal it's hard to beat It for a good portion of the game as long as fear immunity isn't an issue.

[Aalbatr0ss]

…
While I like this style as well, the other posters have pointed out the downsides of Mobile, and I don’t think I should fear AoO that much if I bolster my defenses beforehand. Aside from that, I think my playstyle will be very similar to yours, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that enabling damage is much better than dishing it out. Jolly cooperation for the win! :smallbiggrin:




Hey, you'll be fine with this approach, but just wanted to point out you probably have the best AC on the field. If you take mobile as a high AC guardian, it's for the consistent no-concentration increased speed to ping around the battlefield tagging multiple enemies with disadvantage / AoO threat. You really don't need to worry as much about AoO yourself.

As Silpharon pointed out elsewhere, you can also use longstrider to just get concentration free speed boost for an hour. I don't like prepping it and took mobile, but it's definitely an option. I think your group has a wizard, so you probably don't need to prep level 1 rituals like I do.

[Thesta]

This looks like it would be a lot of fun.

It certainly does, but as I understand it, this character is mainly a Wizard tank with a bit of Armorer tossed in. I played a Wizard in our last campaign, so I’d like to try something different this time around. I’ll keep this build in reserve for a one-shot, though!


I don't use it much, but it can be situationally useful - it's at its best if you're up against something that gets one big attack. […] Another thing to keep in mind is something I mentioned earlier that depends a lot on your GM - the psychology of the opponents you're facing. If you're too hard to hit, enemies might decide to focus on your allies instead. For a while I was using a Shield with the defensive infusion on it, but then I kept ending fights with my party seriously injured while I was still basically at full because of all of my temp HP. Part of this was just rotten luck; its sort of an inside joke that I miss a lot and my Homunculus is some kind of elite sniper who always hits.

You’re right, there’s a sweet spot in tanking: you want to be elusive enough that you can draw attacks to you and survive, but not to the point that the enemies get discouraged and focus your friends instead of you. It’s a fine line, and I might have to talk about it with my GM and/or see how he plays out intelligent enemies in combat. Speaking of Temp HP, did they have that much of an impact on your fights? I mean, it’s a nice buffer and I won’t disregard it, but 1 temp HP/level times PB is not all that much, at least on Tiers 1-2.


[…] I really enjoy all the careful deliberation you need to do in order to get the most out of the spell, but you might not. Feels bad when you cast it on an ally only for the enemies to decide to do something other than attack them!

I sure do! :smallsmile: It’s a very interesting spell and I can’t wait to see it in play a bit more, although your examples show how tricky it can be to use it to its full potential. I hadn’t thought about using Flash of Genius to temper with Initiative, but I suppose it can work wonders under the right conditions, especially if you go all-out and try to pile buffs on one person to tip the scale (I’m thinking Gift of Alacrity, Helm of Awareness, Guidance, etc.) In any case, this is all very helpful, thanks for sharing your game experience!


If you want to try and abuse it and it's not too much trouble, both of you could consider getting it. You could use it from 3-7 and then hand it off to the paladin once he gets his aura. As I said, I don't have experience using it myself, but it SEEMS like its still very powerful tool to disable enemies for you up until your Paladin can use it better.

Yes, that could be very effective (and fun)! I’ll just have to work out a way to weave it into the narrative without it feeling forced. Right now, I have this image of my character coming to our Paladin with : “Hey man, I know this sounds weird, but it’s really important that you learn the bagpipes as fast as possible. No no, it’s for combat - trust me, it will make you terrifying. Might save all our lives down the line, too.” :smallbiggrin:


One last thing, if you can get your hands on an All Purpose Tool it's insanely good. Getting access to ANY cantrip is a ridiculously good utility ability, and of course the bonus to your save DC/spell attack is excellent.(Remember that it helps your homunculus!)

Thank you for bringing up the All-Purpose Tool, I had completely forgotten its existence! Besides all the awesome benefits you pointed out, I would like to add another minor one: unless I’m mistaken, the APT also combines with Tool expertise, letting the Artificer have Expertise in ALL Artisan’s tools from level 6 on. Situational to be sure, but still, I imagine being a master of so many crafts (17, if I’m right) can have its perks.


Some general tactics that aren't necessarily related to the subclass but go a long way if you want to focus on party mitigation:

-your homunculus can use adventuring gear. At low levels the ability to turn a little bit of gold into decent crowd control and area denial well stretch out your spell slots and other resources.

I’m guessing you’re referring to caltrops, ball bearings and the like? That’s an important thing to know, especially at Tier 1 where spell slots are so scarce. I think I remember reading that the Homonculus can also feed potions to downed allies, might have to look that up just to be sure.


-if you have an infusion that regains a number of charges at dawn you can just reinfuse the item and make sure you always get the maximum charges each day.

Another useful thing to remember, especially if I’m to make an extensive use of the Pipes of Haunting. Duly noted!


-at first glance the class looked like a caps out early on but if you're looking to optimize they're one of the best at utilizing and enhancing the entire party. Manufacturing low level scrolls as an example of this. You can make sure the wizards spell book is packed full of all the fun stuff while simultaneously giving everybody a nice buffer stack of utility and healing options yatt frees up prepared slots and spell slots. Artificers weaponize down time and planning.

I can attest that the prospect of making all sort of cool stuff for the party while resting was a big part of why I chose this class! Speaking of downtime endeavors, how did you manage the cost of item-making for the whole party? Did you ask your allies to pay for your services, or did you perhaps sell pricier items to NPCs to cover your expenses? I played a wizard in a world where spell scrolls were ludicrously expensive, so I know the pain of always being flat out broke when everyone goes shopping.


-pipes of haunting. I know it's been discussed already but do not underestimate the power of this infusion option. It's a massive area with a decently high DC, concentration free, and is party/ally friendly. If mitigation is your goal it's hard to beat It for a good portion of the game as long as fear immunity isn't an issue.

You got me at “concentration free”. :smallbiggrin: Thank you for all the tips, stoutstien!


Hey, you'll be fine with this approach, but just wanted to point out you probably have the best AC on the field. If you take mobile as a high AC guardian, it's for the consistent no-concentration increased speed to ping around the battlefield tagging multiple enemies with disadvantage / AoO threat. You really don't need to worry as much about AoO yourself.

As Silpharon pointed out elsewhere, you can also use longstrider to just get concentration free speed boost for an hour. I don't like prepping it and took mobile, but it's definitely an option. I think your group has a wizard, so you probably don't need to prep level 1 rituals like I do.

Longstrider seems like a good alternative indeed (maybe I can craft scrolls of it, given enough downtime). I think the argument that really decided me against Mobile is the fact that I want my enemies to use up their Reactions on me rather than my allies. That aside, I completely understand the appeal in sprinting around the map like a rocket to tag everyone! Out of curiosity, how frequently did the 10-feet increase in speed allow you to reach enemies?

[solidork]

Speaking of Temp HP, did they have that much of an impact on your fights? I mean, it’s a nice buffer and I won’t disregard it, but 1 temp HP/level times PB is not all that much, at least on Tiers 1-2.

Ah, that will be a difference between our characters: my guy is a Beasthide Shifter, so he's also got an extra 1d6+Level+Con Mod temporary hit points per short rest. We recently had a Very Bad Day where every resource was expended in our party - all spell slots, all potions, all abilities, our 2/day short rests (we limit ourselves) - and we were victorious with two party members at 1 HP and the third in the single digits. So every temporary hit point ended up being critical! It's not super impressive early but it does add substantially to your ability to survive in a subtle way. At your level its roughly equivalent to the Tough feat and it only gets better from there.

Since the temp HP doesn't fade until you take a long rest, I pretty much always use Shifting or Defensive Field immediately as soon as my temporary hit points are used up. There really isn't any point to saving them unless you anticipate an exceptionally tough fight at the end of the day and have the means to recover HP in the mean time. Preventing damage now means you'll have more HP to expend later and your bonus action can be a valuable resource; think about it as spending a bonus action during an easy fight in order to have X more HP in a harder fight while still getting to attack with your Homunculus when it counts more.

[Silpharon]

Random aside on sanctuary:

If you get a familiar (use an infusion to make a Spellwrought Tattoo 1st level, a common magic item, with the Find Familiar spell), you can cast sanctuary on the familiar and be a bit more confident that it won't die in the fight. If it's taking the Help action each turn, it won't lose its sanctuary benefit.

[Thesta]

Since the temp HP doesn't fade until you take a long rest, I pretty much always use Shifting or Defensive Field immediately as soon as my temporary hit points are used up. There really isn't any point to saving them unless you anticipate an exceptionally tough fight at the end of the day and have the means to recover HP in the mean time. Preventing damage now means you'll have more HP to expend later and your bonus action can be a valuable resource; think about it as spending a bonus action during an easy fight in order to have X more HP in a harder fight while still getting to attack with your Homunculus when it counts more.

I see. That appears to be the optimal strategy both for protection and for unclogging the Artificer's action economy (so many things to do with only one Bonus Action!) Beasthide Shifter seems pretty good, I’m happy with Loxodon so far but the short rest Temp HP refresh is a nice touch.


Random aside on sanctuary:

If you get a familiar (use an infusion to make a Spellwrought Tattoo 1st level, a common magic item, with the Find Familiar spell), you can cast sanctuary on the familiar and be a bit more confident that it won't die in the fight. If it's taking the Help action each turn, it won't lose its sanctuary benefit.

I’m not sure I understand why you would dedicate an infusion slot to the Familiar: couldn’t the Homonculus serve the exact same purpose here? I mean yeah, he would not be using his Force Rend, but giving up the bonus action attack to use the Help Action throughout a fight seems like a worthwhile trade to me (especially if it helps me land my Gauntlet strikes), and the Homonculus is somewhat sturdier than a Familiar to boot. EDIT: Except a Familiar doesn't use its master's Bonus Action and I'm an idiot. Dammit, now I'm torn between one or the other minion... That Wizard dip is starting to look more and more appealing!

[Aalbatr0ss]

Longstrider seems like a good alternative indeed (maybe I can craft scrolls of it, given enough downtime). I think the argument that really decided me against Mobile is the fact that I want my enemies to use up their Reactions on me rather than my allies. That aside, I completely understand the appeal in sprinting around the map like a rocket to tag everyone! Out of curiosity, how frequently did the 10-feet increase in speed allow you to reach enemies?

You can actually provoke an opportunity attack with mobile. Just take 10 feet to move in-and-out of its range before you attack it. Don't do this needlessly, but sometimes it's a good idea.

In my game (I may ramble a bit here): My character almost let our monk get killed once and is now obsessed with keeping them safe. So he will usually be fighting near her. If I hit the close target once, it expands the range I can pop over to hit a second target and return from 3 squares to 4. This exact scenario has only come up a handful of times, and usually on big battle maps (we have a lot of those). It's something my character always wants to be prepared for. It's a lot of fun when it works.

Two sessions ago we were fighting cloakers while trolls were running up on us from opposite direction. I was able to run back and forth between the cloakers, putting thunder gauntlet disadvantage on one and then keeping the other from approaching the party. The rune knight was able to come over and finish off cloaker 2, then I dash over to the other side of fight to help control the troll's approach. You don't always end up in this kind of fight, but when you do the movement range really opens up your options. This really works if you have a couple big melee damage dealers in the party, and you're kind of "setting the table" for them.

Next session, we're in a room with like 6 tunnel entrances fighting a clay golem in center of room + a bunch of goons. The melee people are all over the golem. I'm doing the disadvantage tag on it, then a poison troll carrying a giant acid barrel comes running down the tunnel toward us. I move away, draw the AoO (and get hit HARD with a 27), and move over to cast grease on the tunnel for the troll. I don't THINK I even needed the extra movement to pull that off, but was able to end turn in a spot where I had a lot of options depending on what pops out next turn.

The more general scenario is: the critical part of the fight shifts, and the guy in from of you isn't the biggest threat anymore so you just want to move to the new threat. Getting from one side of the fight to the other and getting into perfect position. Sometimes 10' will give you an option you didn't have otherwise, and this subclass has a big toolbox.

Also, any turn you're planning on casting a concentration spell (usually first turn), you can pop in and draw the AoO while everyone's getting into position around an enemy, then cast your web, faerie fire, etc. AFTER you might get hit. Sorry for rambling, but I think you get the idea. Have fun!

[Silpharon]

Except a Familiar doesn't use its master's Bonus Action and I'm an idiot. Dammit, now I'm torn between one or the other minion... That Wizard dip is starting to look more and more appealing!

My friend, be at ease. My armorer uses both, without a wasted infusion slot or multiclassing. Let me explain by example:

Imagine you are level 3, your known infusions could be:

Enhanced Weapon
Homunculus Servant
Spellwrought Tattoo Find Familiar
Spellwrought Tattoo Gift of Alacrity


On day 1, set your two active infusions to Enhanced Weapon and Spellwrought Tattoo Find Familiar. Apply the tattoo to yourself, cast it, and now you (and this is important) instantaneously gain the service of a familiar. The tattoo disappears from your skin entirely, as the spell is complete.

On day 2, set your two active infusions to Enhanced Weapon and Homunculus Servant. Presto, you have both! The familiar doesn't go away when you deactivate the infusion, only the magic item you created - which in this case is the tattoo that has already disappeared.

From now on, if your familiar dies, you just re-activate that infusion for a day to bring him back.