PDA

View Full Version : Armorer Artificer, Magic Armor, and Infusions



Greywander
2022-02-20, 04:28 PM
So artificers can't use infusions on magical items. This is most likely to prevent you from doubling up, e.g. putting an Enhanced Defense infusion on a suit of armor +3 to make it armor +5.

For an Armorer, their armor is a core identity for the class. It seems pretty clear that if you have magical armor, it can't be infused before 9th level. But at 9th level we get Armor Modifications, which splits our armor into four pieces, allowing each piece to bear an infusion, as well as giving us two additional infusions provided they're used on one of these four pieces of our armor. So how does this work if we're wearing magical armor? As far as I can tell, there are three possible interpretations:

We can't infuse any part of our armor, because the armor is a magic item, and thus even the individual pieces count as a magic item.
We can't infuse the chestpiece, because it actually counts as the armor, but the other three pieces can be infused.
We can infuse all four pieces because Armor Modifications specifically allows us to, magic armor or not.

Now, I'm pretty sure the last one is wrong. Or at least I'd think it is. I suppose it's possible that this could be an intended exception for the Armorer specifically, allowing them to get monstrously high AC by stacking Enhanced Defense on top of magical armor. But I feel like all Armor Modifications is doing is allowing you to put four infusions on one item, not allowing you to infuse magical armor.

I feel like the first one could be interpreted as technically RAW, but it simply doesn't feel like RAI to me. With the armor being a core part of the Armorer's identity, this would make magical armor a serious detriment to the Armorer. The main reason I don't feel this is correct is because I feel like the Armorer should not be getting penalized for using a magic item. It makes sense that it might not benefit them as much as another class, but actively making them worse than they'd be with nonmagical armor feels wrong.

So what I suspect is that the second one is the real one. The chestpiece can't be infused, but that's because you're getting the magical bonus from the armor. This then allows you to infuse other parts of the armor instead, essentially getting a "free" infusion through the magic armor. Armor +2 is like getting free Enhanced Defense.

Now, in thinking about this, some other odd things came to my mind. It made me start thinking about what the 9th level feature actually does, or if it even does anything at all (besides the two free infusions). Basically what this comes down to is that it seems antithetical to me that the Armorer, of all classes, would somehow be worse at wearing armor than any other class. Let me explain.

The Arcane Armor feature explains that the armor expands to cover your whole body, and specifically allows you to retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action (which doesn't seem to have any effect). I think this was likely a nod to Iron Man who can retract the visor. I saw one person saying that this means you can retract the helmet in order to wear a different piece of headgear that you can then infuse, and because the armor covers the whole body, you can't infuse boots or gauntlets until 9th level.

But this would then mean that a non-Armorer artificer would be able to wear gloves and boots separate from their armor, and infuse those if they wished. But the Armorer can't? Not only that, but if you find a pair of magic boots or gloves, any other martial could use them while wearing armor. But again, the Armorer can't? Why is the Armorer worse at wearing armor than everyone else?

There's also another possibility, which is that wearing any kind of armor prevents you from wearing magical boots, gloves, and possibly headgear. In which case, the Armorer is no worse off than anyone else, and at 9th level gets the unique ability to use these together via infusions.

Of course, this is all completely ridiculous. But... maybe it is actually RAW.

A more sensible way to handle it, I think, would be that an Armorer can wear magic boots, gloves, or headgear, the same as anyone else, and it merely gets incorporated into the armor. Thus, the 9th level feature isn't actually doing anything except integrating those equip slots directly into the armor so that you don't need to carry around separate items like hats or boots to infuse. This might seem obvious for a suit of full plate, but a breastplate certainly wouldn't seem like it would provide boots, gloves, or a helmet. Also, your armor can't be removed against your will, while non-armor clothing like boots or gloves could be removed.

TL;DR, I think this is more for flavor than anything else, and an Armorer can still wear magic boots and such while using their Arcane Armor. Doing so would "save" an infusion slot, allowing you to infuse a different part of the armor instead. Thus, an Armorer doesn't really need more than two magic items between their head, armor, and feet slots. I'm not sure if the "special weapon" would allow for a glove infusion, since it sounds like it's treating it more like a weapon. So your "special weapon" could always benefit from an infusion, unless you somehow find a magical version of your "special weapon".

Townopolis
2022-02-20, 04:47 PM
Ask your DM(tm).

As a DM, I basically agree with your assessment. I'd extend the armorer's non-removal clause to any boots/gloves/etc. they're wearing. This is a buff to armorer, I guess, but a reasonable one, I think. I'd rule that the special weapon takes weapon infusions but not glove infusions.

Silpharon
2022-02-20, 06:23 PM
As you've noticed, the rules are poorly written on this topic, and people have been asking these questions since Tasha's came out (or before from UA). I expected the first Errata to address some of these questions, but it didn't.

So yeah, totally up to the DM. I'd say for sure the weapons are not magical even if the armor is. I'd tend to rule that you can have separate magical boots/gloves that fit over or under the arcane armor. So you wouldn't be able to remove those pieces as part of the don/doff action, and they could be taken off you. I would tend to rule that magical armor (chest piece) cannot receive an infusion even at level 9 (e.g. the point of the ruling was to separate the slots, not imply a specific beats general ruling).

Slider Eclipse
2022-02-21, 06:03 AM
This question is one that very few people can agree on, but I'll raise you one further along the same lines. Is the Armorer's Weapon considered part of the Armor or a separate entity before 9th level? Some would say that RAW implies it's part of the armor and thus can't be infused alongside your Armor (or in your example at all if you use Magic Armor) until 9th level. but this makes little sense for similar reasons to the Magic Armor question, with that Logic an Armorer is worse off using there signature defining feature than anyone else that just picks up a magic sword for half there career.

Similarly there's also the issue of asking what happens to any Magical Boots an Armorer happens to be wearing before they Equip there Arcane Armor? There is literally nothing in RAW to state how this would work. does it just push your shoes off upon deployment? cover them up? if it covers them, does this somehow nullify the magic inside of them? What happens to any Attunement Slot being used by those Boots?

It's because of all these Mechanical oddities that I find it very awkward to argue that the 9th level feature actually does anything special beyond adding Infusion Slots RAW. There is no mechanical system in place defining "Equipment Slots" beyond the mechanics defining TWF and Two Handed Weapons, so to me it makes little sense RAW to state that somehow Armorer is defining such a system, especially when it actively breaks the core mechanics and theme of the archetype and even the class itself to do so with no other mechanical use. IMHO it makes more sense RAI to say that the list in the feature is not a defining rule but simply a statement of what types of Infusions can qualify for the bonus Infusions granted by the Feature.

Granted, I will say I'm not opposed to the idea of the Feature specifically overwriting the Infusion rules as like you stated, it makes sense that an Armorer would be the best at using Magic Armor, it's literally there whole identity and theme as a subclass. I also feel it wouldn't exactly be broken considering that the Armorer could already pick up a Cloak of Protection by the time a +5 Armor becomes possible for them, and use that Infusion Slot for stuff like Gauntlets of Ogre Strength or Winged Boots with Boots of Speed being only a few levels away at that point, all of which are far better than +2 AC IMHO.

But at the end of the day, it's definitely vague enough that it comes down to what your DM thinks about the class.

Aalbatr0ss
2022-02-21, 11:26 AM
Before reading this thread, I thought this was pretty clear from pages 12-17 of Tasha's:

1) an infusion is placed only on a nonmagical object. - Infusing an item
2) Nothing prohibits using magic armor as your arcane armor - Arcane armor - but that doesn't mean you get to infuse it.
3) The arcane armor "expands to cover your entire body although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action" - Arcane armor. I reckon this wording is there specifically to prevent stacking a bunch of found magic items and additional infusions on top of your arcane armor.
4) Based on 9th level Armor modifications it's pretty clear that you can't put more than one infusion on your armor / weapon / boots / helmet complex before level 9.

Overall, it seems clear that
-if you're wearing magic armor as your arcane armor, you can't put any infusions on these slots
-pre-level 9 you can only use 1 infusion this way.
I don't think it was written this way by accident.

All that having been said, you only have 3 infusion preps and 3 attunement slots prior to levels 9/10. So if someone really wanted to wear infused or found magic boots on their level 5 armorer, I'd allow it. If someone wanted to wear found Gauntlets of Ogre power with their pre-level 9 Infiltratior, I'd probably allow it (not guardian)).

Though, I would note that the party artificer competing with the fighter / rogue / ranger for the best found magic items seems to me like a weird way to play this class. So be polite and remember your other party members can't custom make their own stuff from a menu.

But either way you need to handle this on a case-by-case basis with your DM.

TL;DR,
Ask your DM(tm).

Greywander
2022-02-21, 11:31 AM
Well, there is a bit of a difference between putting on a different set of boots or a piece of headgear and them putting the armor on over that. At least those are definitely separate items. But the special weapon is definitely part of the armor. There is at least some plausibility that you might not be able to infuse it separately until 9th level, and each weapon does grant a benefit that makes the weapon outweigh using a regular weapon even if it can't be infused.

But yeah, I think the most sensible thing is to treat the 9th level feature as simply defining which slots can get your free infusions, and you could already infuse those separately before, it just wasn't free. As for magic armor, as a DM I'd run it as only the chestpiece wasn't infusable.

Also, I kept referring to the weapon as "gloves" because I was thinking of the guardian model, but I think the infiltrator model has the weapon in the chestpiece (but still a distinct slot from the chestpiece, e.g. if you have magic armor). As with boots, you could probably put gloves on under the armor, it just wouldn't be eligible for a free infusion. Honestly, I could even see a houserule that extends the 9th level feature to include gloves. You still only get two free infusions, it just broadens the options a bit.

Jerrykhor
2022-02-21, 11:40 AM
Yeah its insanely stupid, and I don't know why they didn't make it clear on the restrictions. I didn't realise that until i read the level 9 feature.

Its like they think Power Armor is way too good just because it covers your entire body so it should count as one item, but in reality there's like no real benefit (Other than can't be forcibly removed from you, and can act as a missing limb, both which are 'benefits' no one cares about). Its kind of a weakness pre-9 if the armour prevents you from wearing magical gauntlets, boots or helmet. And then Armor Modifications just allows you to do what everyone else can do. Bravo.

If it didn't also increase the max number of infused items, its garbage.

Aalbatr0ss
2022-02-21, 11:46 AM
Also, I kept referring to the weapon as "gloves" because I was thinking of the guardian model, but I think the infiltrator model has the weapon in the chestpiece (but still a distinct slot from the chestpiece, e.g. if you have magic armor). As with boots, you could probably put gloves on under the armor, it just wouldn't be eligible for a free infusion. Honestly, I could even see a houserule that extends the 9th level feature to include gloves. You still only get two free infusions, it just broadens the options a bit.

Infiltrator lightning launcher says "a gemlike node appears on one of your armored fists or your chest"

I take this to mean you can decide whether the LL takes the "gauntlets" or "chest piece" slot.
This matters because you can enhanced defense your shield, put enhanced weapon on your "chest piece" and still hold a weapon in your free hand.
Or you can enhanced defense your armor, lightning launch from one hand do something creative with the free hand besides hold a shield?

I haven't really figured out infiltrator yet.

Silpharon
2022-02-21, 11:03 PM
Infiltrator lightning launcher says "a gemlike node appears on one of your armored fists or your chest"

I take this to mean you can decide whether the LL takes the "gauntlets" or "chest piece" slot.
This matters because you can enhanced defense your shield, put enhanced weapon on your "chest piece" and still hold a weapon in your free hand.
Or you can enhanced defense your armor, lightning launch from one hand do something creative with the free hand besides hold a shield?

I haven't really figured out infiltrator yet.

Given the gemlike node is not a part of the original armor suit, but instead is added to it when it "appears" on a fist or chest piece, I would argue it can be independently infused and should not take up either the gauntlet or chest slot. I think it would be more explicit, like Thunder Gauntlets, if they used a slot.

That's of course couldn't be said about Thunder Gauntlets, which clearly use the gauntlet slot.

Edit: ugh, I seriously dislike these poorly written rules.

Aalbatr0ss
2022-02-21, 11:26 PM
Given the gemlike node is not a part of the original armor suit, but instead is added to it when it "appears" on a fist or chest piece, I would argue it can be independently infused and should not take up either the gauntlet or chest slot. I think it would be more explicit, like Thunder Gauntlets, if they used a slot.

That's of course couldn't be said about Thunder Gauntlets, which clearly use the gauntlet slot.

Edit: ugh, I seriously dislike these poorly written rules.

Yeah. I’m pretty conservative when rules are unclear but after rereading today I have to agree. If there is potential for the launcher to occupy your “chest piece” slot, they should spell it out.

I’ll see what my table says, but based on text in Tasha’s it shouldn’t take up an armor infusion (beyond “weapon”) and shouldn’t take up a hand.