Is Wizard 20 worth it?

[Soranar]

As the title says, do you guys think any of the wizard ACF are worth a 20 level investment?

Personally I really like summoning with the conjurer variants (rapid summoning + enhanced summoning) seem like it can be better than many prestige classes. If I wasn't focusing on summoning so much I'd have taken the abrupt jaunt ability but getting a summon as a standard action is a big bonus

-you also get augment summoning without wasting a feat on spell focus
-you get an enhanced version of augment summoning which is a unique ability as far as I can tell
-no need to use a certain race or waste any feats for requirements so I could play a dragonborn of bahamut warforged scout (for flight) and gain a 30' fly speed without wasting a magic item or spells on it and the immunities are especially nice (casting toxic gas spells to which you are immune is especially fun)

But are there prestige classes that blow all of that out of the water? what do you guys think?

[Particle_Man]

Well Wizard 20 is already a Tier 1 God character, so at that point it is really more a matter of taste. I think it depends on whether you have a favourite feat chain or high level ACFs, or have something creative you could do with your familiar. Also, whether epic is on the table (in which case wizard 20 gets you to wizard 21 later).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, there are DMs that forbid PrCs and LA-buyoff. Probably worth bothering with, then, especially if you can use ACFs for later levels.

Also, most arcane PrCs don't grant free spells on level-ups, nor do many of them progress your familiar. So those might be issues, as well.

[Jervis]

Well, there are DMs that forbid PrCs and LA-buyoff. Probably worth bothering with, then, especially if you can use ACFs for later levels.

Also, most arcane PrCs don't grant free spells on level-ups, nor do many of them progress your familiar. So those might be issues, as well.

I mean if you aren’t allowed to use PrCs then it’s 1-20 by default. Though I will disagree with you on the no free spells on level up thing. Most classes advance as the base class for determining “spells known” and wizard spells known are their spellbook. Familiar advancement is a fair point though, but bringing it up requires that I reference lightning warrior.

[RandomPeasant]

If you really care about the Familiar, you can cash it out for something then buy it back in a way that scales with PrCs via Obtain Familiar.

As far as "worth it", that depends. In terms of raw power, I don't think there are any ACFs that are better than some sort of Incantatrix/IotSV/Shadowcraft Mage pile (or piles with an even larger range of PrCs). Of course, I also don't think there are any PrCs that are better than what you can do with the Wizard spell list, so it's sort of a wash from a maximum optimization perspective. It's entirely possible that if you want something extremely specific, you're better off with an ACF than any printed PrC, but at the same time that sort of logic disconnects from any kind of "which of these is more powerful" question pretty fast.

Basically, you will be able to reach whatever power target you want whether or not you are a Mage of the Arcane Order or a Geometer or a Loremaster. But at anything short of maximal TO, you will be leaving power on the table if you don't PrC. It's also really boring to stick with Wizard 20, as "you learn some new spells" is not an exciting class feature when you can go out and learn new spells by throwing gold at the problem.

[Particle_Man]

Well you also get spell slots so more reality bending per day.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I mean if you aren’t allowed to use PrCs then it’s 1-20 by default. Though I will disagree with you on the no free spells on level up thing. Most classes advance as the base class for determining “spells known” and wizard spells known are their spellbook. Familiar advancement is a fair point though, but bringing it up requires that I reference lightning warrior.Well, of the PrCs in the DMG, only red wizard, loremaster, and archmage actually grant spells known; the rest grant additional spells per day. If the PrC doesn't grant spells known, you don't get to do spell research.

Note the following under the wizard's spellbook entry: "At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook." It specifies wizard level. So it's not granted as a matter of course when you gain a caster level. I'm not sure exactly how many PrCs specifically grant spells known, but it's certainly not all of them.

Of course, sorcs get screwed harder by this, but that's par for the course by now.

[bekeleven]

Well, of the PrCs in the DMG, only loremaster and archmage actually grant spells known; the rest grant additional spells per day. If the PrC doesn't grant spells known, you don't get to do spell research.

Note the following under the wizard's spellbook entry: "At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook." It specifies wizard level. So it's not granted as a matter of course when you gain a caster level. I'm not sure exactly how many PrCs specifically grant spells known, but it's certainly not all of them.

Of course, sorcs get screwed harder by this, but that's par for the course by now.

At some point, we had a separate color we used for RAW nonsense, but I can't recall what it was.

Have you ever, in your D&D career, seen a table where a sorcerer went into mystic theurge and didn't get spells known?

As for OP: There are enough (at minimum) PrC dips in the world that I can't imagine having full class access and building wizard 20. Few good prestige classes are truly free, but most require feats that aren't too bad, or a few cross-class ranks in good skills (Mindbender, Nightmare Spinner).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

At some point, we had a separate color we used for RAW nonsense, but I can't recall what it was.

Have you ever, in your D&D career, seen a table where a sorcerer went into mystic theurge and didn't get spells known?Well, given that mystic theurge explicitly says you don't gain spells known...

Spells per Day
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

[RandomPeasant]

That may technically be the RAW of it, but even WotC didn't really believe it worked that way. If you look at, for instance, the sample Rage Mage (Complete Warrior, page 73), she has spells known past what she'd get from her Sorcerer levels, despite the Rage Mage not having the "and also spells known" language (other applicable sample NPCs seem to have the error, but it's hard to say since they're all Wizards and I'm not doing the wealth math). You can argue that it's an editing error, but I would argue right back that the editing error is the fact that the text doesn't say you get spell knowledge. I've certainly never seen a DM rule that you don't get your spells known because of it, especially because the vast majority of PrCs (including the best ones) do have the language, so it's mostly just another way to kick people who want to play weird and cool PrCs in the teeth for not playing an Incantatrix like they're supposed to.

[Soranar]

I don't think there are any ACFs that are better than some sort of Incantatrix/IotSV/Shadowcraft Mage

well let's compare each prestige class to a conjurer wizard 20


incantatrix :

the feat requirement is available from otyugh hole so that's not even a feat tax and you need to keep abjuration

for all of that you get metamagic reduction for free which is definitely a + and a lot of situational class features.

you do lose on bonus feats but I'm already spending those on boosting summoning so that's a wash IMO

The only real downside is losing another school, which is honestly a pretty big deal if you're a focused specialist. Like other commenters pointed out: a wizard is already tier 1 so maintaining access to the best spells is what's really important.

And a lot of spells don't need metamagics to do their job: a level 1 grease spell remains useful against even epic monsters. The same goes for most battlefield control spells honestly. The only build I can think of that really needs metamagic is a mailman build or the occasional sculpt spell. Even sculpt spell is not that useful if you're personally immune (warforged) to the spell you're casting near you.

So far, not sure this is clearly superior but I've only really abused metamagic through arcane thesis and just pumped 1 spell to ridiculous levels. Maybe I lack experience in that department.

Shadowcraft Mage

-hefty requirements (race, skills, feats and high level spellcasting)
-you get to mimic my conjurer's spells and add an extra saving throw on them but you gain versatility

IMO that's a wash or maybe even worse. This time the things you lose (all the requirements) don't always make up for what you get. You can start with a different chassis, I guess that'd be something, but the other chassis are all tier 2 or lower unless you play an archivist which doesn't need to take shadowcraft mage to cast conjuration spells anyway.

The only exception would be a cleric but he can only use silent image through domain slots so that's not a lot of conjuration spells.

I'm not saying the class is a trap but it just feels like a roundabout way to cast conjuration spells like a normal wizard

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

-steep requirements (very high level skill ranks, 3 mostly useless feats, many spell knowns)
-you get immediate action effects that can't be easily duplicated by spells... that is pretty good even if you can't use those effects often

this feels like incantatrix again : in theory this should blow a conjurer wizard out of the water but, in practice, the conjurer would probably handle just as many encounters a little differently (it really is hard to compare tier 1 characters)

At least the abilities are definitely unique so it's mostly a question of taste. The only issue seems to be getting there: the requirements will be painful to carry over 9 levels until you can finally take the Prestige class you had in mind.

[AvatarVecna]

If the question being asked is "is there a Wizard 20 setup that's maybe worth taking instead of PrCs", the points about free spell research and familiar are relevant. I don't think spells are expensive enough to make PrCs a bad choice exactly, but it's gonna depend on wealth distribution. If we're talking about what ACFs are worth playing through to 20th...let's look at the UA specialist ACFs.

Yes
Probably
Maybe
No

Resistance To Energy: 1/day Standard action to grant one creature piddly ER vs a single element for one hour. You gave up a familiar for this. Garbage.

Aura Of Protection: 1/day per 5 levels Standard action to grant yourself + to AC or saves vs a single effect. It won't stack with the common magic items that give similar but lesser effects for the whole day instead of for 4 attacks max. you gave up bonus item creation/metamagic feats for this. Garbage.

Spontaneous Dispelling: You can spontaneously turn spell levels into Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic. It costs more levels than the spell normall would, although you can use a few smaller slots rather than one big slot. It's pretty circumstantial, and the spell level tax isn't great, but spontaneous dispelling is pretty useful at times. Still, you're giving up extra spell slots for this. This is on the edge of being garbage IMO, but it's far and away the best of the three.

Rapid Summoning: Free "Rapid Spell" on all your summoning spells, and all it costs is your familiar. That's a hell of a deal unless you were pulling some serious familiar shenanigans.

Enhanced Summoning: Resistance to dispelling is okay, but I don't tend to see dispels used against summoning spells. Additionally, the most powerful uses for summoning tend to be summoning caster monsters, so bonuses to strength aren't helpful. The con bonus is helpful regardless, but keep in mind that you're giving up bonus feats for this. It's giving you something decent, it's just replacing something spectacular.

Spontaneous Summoning: Once more, spontaneous casting with a feat tax. But not only is it 8 spells instead of 2, and more evenly spread across the level range, summon spells are far more versatile than Dispel Magic. That's enough to make this a bit better than Spontaneous Dispelling, although it's still generally gonna be worse than other methods you could use to acquire spontaneous casting.

Enhanced Awareness: An extra class skill, two spells being slightly upgraded, and +1 to save DCs in a school that largely doesn't force saves. You gave up a familiar for this. Garbage.

Bonus Feats: You've got from dozens and dozens of options for your bonus feats, to seven. And only Improved Initiative is worth taking. This is actually worse than the Martial Wizard ACF, because that at least gives you access to all fighter bonus feats, instead of Improved Initiative and six very lame core feats. Garbage.

Prescient: Add [Int mod] (insight) to attack/save/skill/level check as a free action 1/day per five levels. It's versatile and powerful, and it'll stack with most anything else you're doing, unlike Aura Of Protection. Still, you're giving up extra divination spells for this. I think you'll regret making that choice more often than not.

Cohort: Giving up a familiar for Leadership cohort, or a leadership upgrade if you have the feat? That's a good deal.

Social Proficiency: Wizard has good enough Int that this will allow them to be a good face. The "every 5 levels" +2 competence won't stack with magic items, and is pretty tiny. Overall, I think this is a lot worse than the bonus feats it's replacing, but if you want a social wizard, this is a simple way to pull it off.

Extended Enchanting: You give up extra enchantment spells per day, in exchange for a decent number of free Extended enchantment spells. That's a pretty good deal, I think. Not a must-take, but it's a viable option.

Energy Affinity: Giving up a familiar for a CL boost for a particular element...I can see that being a decent choice on the right build, but I think it's usually a mistake. Maybe if the CL boost improved over time, it'd be an easier sacrifice to make.

Energy Substitution: "Energy Substitution" the metamagic feat applies to a single element, but applies as many times per day as you want for free. I guess this can affect any element from lvl 1, as opposed to you having to wait until you have Energy Substitution 5 times? But realistically, especially taking Energy Affinity and other metamagic feats into account, you're probably turning all your spells into fire spells anyway and you only need ES feat once. That makes this garbage.

Overcome Resistance: Decent daily usage, and it affects any creature affected by the spell. +10 damage per target is decent. You're giving up extra blasting spells for this, though, and that hurts.

Chains Of Disbelief: Giving up a familiar in exchange for making your illusions more effective against groups of thinking enemies? I could see that trade being worth it for a lot of illusionists.

Shadow Shaper: Hide proficiency (but not Move Silently), +Int to Hide (but not Move Silently), a slight save DC bump, unrestricted HiPS, and finally an upgrade to any concealment they gain from other sources. I don't think this is worth giving up bonus feats for, but at the same time completely unrestricted HiPS is a pretty cool ability, and you'll at least have one stealth skill that pairs with it. Riding the line of being garbage, but that one late-game ability is really really good.

Illusion Mastery: Trade bonus spells per day for bonus spells in your spellbook. I think that's a decent trade, although it's not a must-have: if you're in a campaign where getting more spellbook spells is cheap and easy, this gets a lot worse.

Skeletal Minion: Give up your familiar for an undead beatstick. Thank God, where was a necromancer ever going to get one of those. This is on the edge of being garbage, but it's not [I]awful it's just kinda mediocre. This is probably worse than the Animal Companion one, if only because the AC trade has options to choose from and can be upgraded with things like Natural Bond or Beastmaster.

Undead Apotheosis: Another one on the edge of being garbage. It's an untyped bonus to saves against a bunch of nasty stuff, but...you're giving up bonus feats for that. I don't see that trade being worth it, but at the same time +4 to saves vs Energy Drain will save your life some day.

Enhanced Undead: On the edge, but in the other direction. A pretty decent upgrade to your beatstick monsters, and it should stack with most things you do. If your DM allows it to apply to any of your undead (not just created, but things like Skeletal Minion or the Summon Undead spell line), would be better.

Enhance Attribute: 1/day, plus 1 per 5 levels. Swift action to use, lasts for [class level] rounds. It can only be used on yourself, and it only gives +2 (enhancement) to a single attribute. Highly circumstantial, but the use limit, action cost, and duration are all decent enough that I think it's maybe worth taking. It's almost garbage though.

Spell Versatility: This is abusable enough that it's a decent alternative to metamagic/item crafting, which is saying something. This doesn't just let you steal the best spells from your prohibited schools, it also maybe lets you get around immunities/resistances that are dependent on school type. This is Scrying that can scry Vecna-Blooded individuals. This is Dominate Person used on somebody protected by Mind Blank. This is Major Image that auto-fools True Seeing. If all that isn't true, it's downgraded, but it's still a decent trade in the right circumstances just for getting access to the best spells from your banned schools.

Transmutable Memory: Giving up bonus spells for increased versatility, particularly in your low-level utility spells. That's pretty valuable, and a decent trade to make on most transmuter builds I think.

[RandomPeasant]

you do lose on bonus feats but I'm already spending those on boosting summoning so that's a wash IMO

... no you don't. In ten levels of Incantatrix, you get four bonus feats. In ten levels of Wizard, you get two bonus feats. At the more likely four-level breakpoint, you get two bonus feats to the Wizard's zero. The Incantatrix's bonus feats are more limited, but presumably if you are taking ten levels of a metamagic-focused PrC, you have a number of metamagic feats you would like to take.


The only real downside is losing another school, which is honestly a pretty big deal if you're a focused specialist. Like other commenters pointed out: a wizard is already tier 1 so maintaining access to the best spells is what's really important.

I mean, you could always not be a focused specialist. Certainly I would imagine if your plan was to trade away your bonus spells for something, you would choose not to be one, so I hardly see the idea that you might choose not to be one as an Incantatrix as a meaningful downside.


The only build I can think of that really needs metamagic is a mailman build or the occasional sculpt spell.

Or the classic Incantatrix buff-stacker. Especially versions that do cheese to get all their buffs in an AMF.


-hefty requirements (race, skills, feats and high level spellcasting)

What were you planning to do with your race selection anyway? The best racial option for a Wizard is Elven Generalist, and as a specialist Wizard you cant do that. Gnome is about as good as most other options. Similarly, the skill requirements aren't enough to be onerous and Wizards don't need much by way of skills. The feat investment isn't trivial, but you can get a reasonable build off only a couple feats, you don't need to go for the full combo.


-you get to mimic my conjurer's spells and add an extra saving throw on them but you gain versatility

I don't just "gain versatility", I get to ban Evocation for ~free and I get the Rapid Summoning you're so excited about for free too. Plus emulating major creation lets me cast that spell in combat time, and "I conjure a cage of adamantine around the enemy" is an awful lot like forcecage, just as a 5th level spell.


-steep requirements (very high level skill ranks, 3 mostly useless feats, many spell knowns)

Again, skill ranks are not constrained for a Wizard, nor is there much outside prereqs for which they're useful. The feats are admittedly rough, but can be mitigated (e.g. Master Specialist, though that's probably a bad plan in the Incantatrix build). The "many spell knowns" are not nearly as many as you think. You get resistance for free. magic circle of some sort is necessary to make planar binding go, and a second sort or dispel magic are eminently defensible choices. You can make the 4th level ones off of just general need spells like break enchantment, though in a party with a Cleric you don't necessarily want to and might need to go further afield.


Rapid Summoning: Free "Rapid Spell" on all your summoning spells, and all it costs is your familiar. That's a hell of a deal unless you were pulling some serious familiar shenanigans.

Worth noting that this doesn't require you to give up a PrC. You get it at first level, you can just PrC like a normal Wizard and laugh all the way to the bank. Same issue with Chains of Disbelief.


Cohort: Giving up a familiar for Leadership cohort, or a leadership upgrade if you have the feat? That's a good deal.

This is the only one that I would really call "worth it", and even then it's giving up a single level of a PrC. If you were trying to do something weird like Abjurant Champion you might even be taking Wizard 6 normally.


Extended Enchanting: You give up extra enchantment spells per day, in exchange for a decent number of free Extended enchantment spells. That's a pretty good deal, I think. Not a must-take, but it's a viable option.

I'm not convinced here. Where are you getting that much value out of Extend Spell on Enchantments? Making charm person last all day instead of only five hours seems unlikely to be a big deal. The best use for Extend Spell is getting buffs to last into a new set of spell slots, and Enchantment doesn't have great buffs. I suppose you can maintain a slightly larger stable of dominated minions than normal, but you can already get as many minions as you need (and more than the game can handle) without the extra duration.


Energy Substitution: "Energy Substitution" the metamagic feat applies to a single element, but applies as many times per day as you want for free. I guess this can affect any element from lvl 1, as opposed to you having to wait until you have Energy Substitution 5 times? But realistically, especially taking Energy Affinity and other metamagic feats into account, you're probably turning all your spells into fire spells anyway and you only need ES feat once. That makes this garbage.

This doesn't do anything from 1st level. About the only use for it I can imagine is if you can somehow convince your DM that it lets you qualify for Lord of the Uttercold and use that to bypass the metamagic feat required for Energy Substitution (the feat).


Illusion Mastery: Trade bonus spells per day for bonus spells in your spellbook. I think that's a decent trade, although it's not a must-have: if you're in a campaign where getting more spellbook spells is cheap and easy, this gets a lot worse.

Bonus spells, but they both have to be Illusions. That's a harsh restriction, particularly if you have access to a limited number of splats, as a lot of Core Illusions are just "the one from last level, but better in some cases". Plus, the Wizard's baseline spell acquisition is more that sufficient to cover your bases. I don't see the intersection of "can dumpster-dive enough to be happy with your choices", "limited access to new spells from scrolls", and "don't need to worry about bonus spell slots" being very large.


Enhanced Undead: On the edge, but in the other direction. A pretty decent upgrade to your beatstick monsters, and it should stack with most things you do. If your DM allows it to apply to any of your undead (not just created, but things like Skeletal Minion or the Summon Undead spell line), would be better.

This one just sounds like "you should've been a Dread Necromancer" to me. It's not a bad bonus, but it's much worse at what it's trying to do than an immediately obvious alternative, and that makes me skeptical of its practical utility.


Spell Versatility: This is abusable enough that it's a decent alternative to metamagic/item crafting, which is saying something. This doesn't just let you steal the best spells from your prohibited schools, it also maybe lets you get around immunities/resistances that are dependent on school type. This is Scrying that can scry Vecna-Blooded individuals. This is Dominate Person used on somebody protected by Mind Blank. This is Major Image that auto-fools True Seeing. If all that isn't true, it's downgraded, but it's still a decent trade in the right circumstances just for getting access to the best spells from your banned schools.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't let you bypass anything. You treat it as a spell of the appropriate school, other things do not. It definitely doesn't beat mind blank, as mind blank stops dominate person because it is [Mind-Affecting], not because it is an Enchantment. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't beat true seeing either, as true seeing specifically shows "the true form of ... transmuted things". I don't see a lot of room for your Transmutation major image to beat true seeing because it isn't an Illusion, but not to count as something transmuted.

I'm also skeptical of its utility in letting you pick up banned spells. You get a total of four spells, and realistically it's going to be two in the overwhelming majority of campaigns. I suppose that's alright if you happen to feel that the only valuable parts of Enchantment and Evocation are dominate person and fireball, but if you want to get around a banned school, Shadowcraft Mage seems a lot more effective.


Transmutable Memory: Giving up bonus spells for increased versatility, particularly in your low-level utility spells. That's pretty valuable, and a decent trade to make on most transmuter builds I think.

I am skeptical of that. At, say, 10th level, being a regular specialist would get you 15 levels of extra spell slots compared to a normal Wizard. This lets you move 5 around. So the most effective use of this (getting more top-level slots) doesn't get you ahead. It makes you a little bit spontaneous, but if you wanted to be a little bit spontaneous you could just reserve spell slots or go Mage of the Arcane Order.

[loky1109]

At the more likely four-level breakpoint, you get two bonus feats to the Wizard's zero.
Wizard's one.
Even one wizard's level loss means loosing one feat.

[aglondier]

I guess it depends what you're aiming for.

Arcane Discovery: Immortality (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/immortality/).
Prerequisite: You must be at least a 20th-level Wizard to select this discovery.

They capitalise Wizard all over the arcane discoveries, guessing that means actual class levels in wizard, not just caster levels...

[Saint-Just]

Master Specialist probably beats taking extra levels for specialist ACFs. Especially because it does not preclude you from taking those ACFs, only reduces their benefits (because you do not sacrifice that many bonus feats, but for example Master Specialist Conjurer gets +5 to dispel DCs at character level 10 instead of +2 at lv5 and +4 at lv 15 for UA Enhanced Summoning). If you want to really go nuts argue for double reduction - Rapid Summoning allows you to cast summoning as a standard action and Major Esoterica allows to cast standard action summoning as swift. At lv 13.

Oh, and it's a class that has a class feature that says you get extra spells known in addition to those you normally get at level up, and it does not have any feature that indicates you get your normal spells. So it reads as a strong indicator that RAI whoever wrote that class thought that you do get such additions normally.


At some point, we had a separate color we used for RAW nonsense, but I can't recall what it was.


Green
>ywn argue that simulacrum can't control another on the grounds that it cannot become more powerful and control is a kind of power What? It fits

[Jervis]

Well, given that mystic theurge explicitly says you don't gain spells known...

Spells per Day
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

To me this is less a intentional choice and more a case of monks not having unarmed strike proficiency and Erudite having exponentially scaling UPPD where either the designers or the editors just forgor. I know NPCs often break the rules but almost every example NPC that uses one of these advances spells known regardless of whatever the class spells section says.

Also I’d say that the “wizard level” text falls into the same rule as other spellcasting things where advancing spellcasting advances that as well for the purposes of spells you can learn.

[Buufreak]

I guess it depends what you're aiming for.

Arcane Discovery: Immortality (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/immortality/).
Prerequisite: You must be at least a 20th-level Wizard to select this discovery.

They capitalise Wizard all over the arcane discoveries, guessing that means actual class levels in wizard, not just caster levels...

Considering it is taken straight off the page for wizard, as the class, yes it is safe to assume you need to be a wizard 20 to get the benefit of the wizard 20 benefit.

[Vaern]

If you look at, for instance, the sample Rage Mage (Complete Warrior, page 73), she has spells known past what she'd get from her Sorcerer levels, despite the Rage Mage not having the "and also spells known" language (other applicable sample NPCs seem to have the error, but it's hard to say since they're all Wizards and I'm not doing the wealth math).

It's also possible that the lack of spells known was intended on the original set of prestige classes to make them less appealing to spontaneous casters as they were made with wizards in mind, who are capable of learning spells outside of standard class progression. Since the DMG doesn't seem to provide sample characters we can't be sure. The rules used in the supplement books are subject to the interpretation of their respective authors.
Regardless of whether their interpretation is accurate to the original intentions or not, though, I'm on board with the "not learning spells when leveling a spellcaster class sounds like nonsense" crowd.

[Soranar]

The cohort is definitely strong, we never allow leadership at my table so I honestly just skipped over that one.

So let's look at the necromancer option

-the enhanced undead replaces corpsecrafter feats but it works on any undead you create which is significantly better than corpsecrafter.
-the feat abilities are worthless if you go necropolitan (this build would) so those are not taken and you stick with bonus feats (probably a lord of the uttercold build)

finally the minion

-doesn't count against your animate dead HD at least
-from what the description says, nothing prevents you from awakening it, not sure what's the earliest level you can pull this off but you will eventually
-is made from a warrior so it keeps its proficiencies even before being awakened for the initial equipment
-it's a minion you create so it should get the enhance undead bonuses too so you save on magic items and buffs to equip it

-At level 1 it's pretty strong 17 STR, 17 DEX, 14 hitpoints, undead immunities and it's disposable. Compared to a druid's animal companion... I think having iterative attacks and undead immunities keeps it on par or better than an animal companion. There might be a few levels where the animal companion would be better but once you awaken it you get to pick all of its feats so, eventually, the minion comes out on top

+10 to STR , + 10 to DEX , 1d12+2 hitpoints per level or about 170 hitpoints

23 STR, 23 DEX, - CON, 4+ 1d6 INT, 10 WIS, 1 CHA

now you do have 5 ability score increases so STR should reach 28

20 HD, 15 BAB and 7 feats

Finally you can be an undead you create (requires magic jar but it's completely RAW) so you also gain

+4 enhancement to STR, DEX, and +2 hitpoints per level (and another +2 from desecrate with an altar)

All in all I think this is worth it.

[RandomPeasant]

Wizard's one.
Even one wizard's level loss means loosing one feat.

No it doesn't. Wizard 9 gets one bonus feat from their Wizard levels (well, one selectable bonus feat). Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 gets one bonus feat from their Wizard levels and two from their Incantatrix levels.


Oh, and it's a class that has a class feature that says you get extra spells known in addition to those you normally get at level up, and it does not have any feature that indicates you get your normal spells. So it reads as a strong indicator that RAI whoever wrote that class thought that you do get such additions normally.

I don't think that argument is accurate. Master Specialist still says "(and spells known, if applicable)" in its Spellcasting entry, so unless you believe that adding spells to your spellbook doesn't count as getting spells known, the Master Specialist gets new spells without any arguments by implication.


It's also possible that the lack of spells known was intended on the original set of prestige classes to make them less appealing to spontaneous casters as they were made with wizards in mind, who are capable of learning spells outside of standard class progression.

To be honest, I would believe that the PrCs were designed to kick Sorcerers in the teeth, because so much of the system is designed to kick Sorcerers in the teeth. That said, I'm not so attached to RAW that I would enforce that (in fact, I would go even further and bump caster PrCs up to full casting, because the best PrCs already are).


All in all I think this is worth it.

Is it? You get the stat bonuses from 1st level, meaning they don't trade off with PrCs. So the only thing you get from not taking a PrC at any given level is an additional marginal hit die on your skeleton. I find it difficult to believe that's worth more than being an Incantatrix, or even something less powerful like a Mage of the Arcane Order. I'm also still not convinced it makes you better at what you're trying to do than a Dread Necromancer would be, though getting the bonuses from 1st level is something.

[loky1109]

No it doesn't. Wizard 9 gets one bonus feat from their Wizard levels (well, one selectable bonus feat). Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 gets one bonus feat from their Wizard levels and two from their Incantatrix levels.

Wizard-20 - four feats from wizard.
Wizard-19/Incantatrix-1 - three feats from wizard.
Wizard-16/Incantatrix-4 - three feats from wizard.
We talk about Wizard-20, not about Wizard-9.

[RandomPeasant]

We talk about the tradeoffs you actually make. Nothing forces you to go Wizard 10 after Wizard 9, you could do Mage of the Arcane Order 1 or Rainbow Servant 1 or Mindbender 1. In any of those situations, you can zero additional bonus feats relative to the Incantatrix. Of course, the point is moot, as Incantatrix gives you bonus feats faster than Wizard, so you're ahead even if we insist on claiming that losing levels which contain zero bonus feats costs you bonus feats.

[loky1109]

We talk about the tradeoffs you actually make. Nothing forces you to go Wizard 10 after Wizard 9, you could do Mage of the Arcane Order 1 or Rainbow Servant 1 or Mindbender 1. In any of those situations, you can zero additional bonus feats relative to the Incantatrix. Of course, the point is moot, as Incantatrix gives you bonus feats faster than Wizard, so you're ahead even if we insist on claiming that losing levels which contain zero bonus feats costs you bonus feats.

Look on topic name. There are "Wizard 20".



Nothing forces you to go Wizard 10 after Wizard 9
Nothing, if I don't want extra feat.

If you mean "Nothing forces you to go Wizard 6/Incantatrix 4 after Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4" this is another talk. Different.


so you're ahead even if we insist on claiming that losing levels which contain zero bonus feats costs you bonus feats.
You can't trade from ECL 20 Wizard "levels which contain zero bonus feats" until you trade Wizard-20 which contain more than zero bonus feats (one). Yeah, if you'll not take it anyway, you are free to not take another four levels, but this isn't trade "4 levels without feats" it still is trade "5 levels with 1 feat".

Incantatrix is good PrC, but you don't trade 0 feats for 2 feats, you trade 1 feat for 2. +1 profit, not +2.

[liquidformat]

Shadowcraft Mage

-hefty requirements (race, skills, feats and high level spellcasting)
-you get to mimic my conjurer's spells and add an extra saving throw on them but you gain versatility

IMO that's a wash or maybe even worse. This time the things you lose (all the requirements) don't always make up for what you get. You can start with a different chassis, I guess that'd be something, but the other chassis are all tier 2 or lower unless you play an archivist which doesn't need to take shadowcraft mage to cast conjuration spells anyway.

The only exception would be a cleric but he can only use silent image through domain slots so that's not a lot of conjuration spells.

I'm not saying the class is a trap but it just feels like a roundabout way to cast conjuration spells like a normal wizard


So I think this one deserves a deeper dive since you have really ignored what makes a shadowcrafter illusionist powerful. For the most part if I am going Shadowcraft it is to abuse quasireality. So lets say I go Wizard 5/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 3-10 Feat selection might be something like:
1) Spell Focus (illusion)
3) Greater Spell Focus (illusion)
5) Heighten Spell
6) Earth Sense
9) Earth Spell
12) Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell)
15) Enhanced Shadow Reality
18) Residual Magic
Its a pretty reasonable build doesn't take much abuse and gets by most DMs since you take all of two PRCs. By level 17 I am able to cast quasireal conjuration/evocation spells up to 140% real (160% for damage spells) for level 8&9 spells. So no I am not taking a roundabout way to cast conjuration spells like a normal wizard, I am taking a roundabout way to cast conjuration and evocation spells that are significantly more powerful than a normal wizard and often more powerful than a focused conjurer or evoker.

Across the board I don't think wizard 20 is worth while if you aren't going epic purely because the ACFs tend to be more front loaded and have diminishing returns for staying in them. Also compared to PRCs wizard 20 even with a lot of ACFs doesn't gain anything besides spells known/per day most levels.

Typically I would prefer go into Fiendbinder, malconvoker, fleshwarper, or some similar prc that has some fun twists than going straight conjurer 20 and they tend to give you some added features you couldn't get from conjurer 20.

[RandomPeasant]

Look on topic name. There are "Wizard 20".

Look at the question that is being asked. Where is the feat that the Wizard 9 has but the Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 doesn't? It's nowhere. Because that is the tradeoff that is actually being made. At some later level you lose something, but that level is an IotSV or Shadowcraft Mage or whatever level, not an Incantatrix level.


Its a pretty reasonable build doesn't take much abuse and gets by most DMs since you take all of two PRCs.

"More real than real" shadow illusions are pretty abusive. I would say the more reasonable Shadowcraft Mage build is the one that goes all-in on flexibility, with Signature Spell to spontaneously turn any of its spells into any evocation and most conjurations. Feat progression looks something like:

1: Spell Focus (Illusion)
3: Spell Mastery
5: Heighten Spell
6: Signature Spell
9: Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell)

That leaves you with more free feats, and combines well with Incantatrix (which was my initial overall proposal). Something like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4/Shadowcraft Mage 3 gets you the power of Incantatrix for close to free, as you can just use shadow illusion versions of any Evocation spell you happen to think is important.

[loky1109]

Where is the feat that the Wizard 9 has but the Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 doesn't?

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 lose feat from Wizard 10 on next level.


At some later level you lose something, but that level is an IotSV or Shadowcraft Mage or whatever level, not an Incantatrix level.
So you can lose also feats from Wizard 15 and Wizard 20.

[RandomPeasant]

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 lose feat from Wizard 10 on next level.

Well, no, Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 doesn't lose it. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4/Something Else 1 loses it. So your opportunity cost for the feat was that something else, not the Incantatrix levels. And, again, this is all completely pointless, since Incantatrix gives you feats faster than Wizard so you aren't losing anything in real terms anyway.

[Soranar]

Is it? You get the stat bonuses from 1st level, meaning they don't trade off with PrCs. So the only thing you get from not taking a PrC at any given level is an additional marginal hit die on your skeleton. I find it difficult to believe that's worth more than being an Incantatrix, or even something less powerful like a Mage of the Arcane Order. I'm also still not convinced it makes you better at what you're trying to do than a Dread Necromancer would be, though getting the bonuses from 1st level is something.

I won't go further to explain why a wizard is better than a dread necromancer beyond spells: a wizard has way more spell versatility and that trumps any dread necromancer ability.

As for the undead minion, there's 2 things about it.

1rst, you get it from level 1 and, unless you intended to stay a wizard the whole way, you'd never bother taking that class feature otherwise.

And you're not losing a marginal amount of bonus HD if you PrC out of it, you lose 1 HD per level, that's taking a fairly good class feature and making it useless.

Mage of the arcane order:

-most of the abilities are situational or can easily be duplicated by low level spells.
-the spellpool is what you're here for but, because of the action cost, the spellpool is definitely not a combat component and it's up to the DM to decide if a particular spell is even available.

The spellpool is meh to me. Don't get me wrong, it is super convenient to have access to a variety of spells during downtime but being hostage to DM fiat is kind of annoying + a wizard doesn't have a spell known limit anyway so you probably already know the spell you need or it's impossible to find (throuh DM fiat), meaning the spell pool wouldn't have it either.

So yeah, the spellpool is definitely convenient but it's not clearly better than a proper wizard 20 build. Just like the shadowcraft mage it's great for casters with limited spell knowns but that's not your case.

I've been reading other posts about incantatrix and they argue that you keep the spells of the banned school you already know, meaning banning necromancy is no big deal.

That's not RAW, even if you know a spell from a banned school you still can't cast it:

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands.

So even if you know a spell, or you have a runewand or a runestaff, you still can't cast it. Maybe that's not how videogames have done it but that's what the rules say. Meaning that giving up that extra school is a very real cost in versatility.

Incantatrix is certainly good but it's not always ideal and it's not much better than a wizard 20.

You can certainly combine incantatrix, illusionist gnome and shadowcraft mage into something quite powerful. You'd be able to ban enchantment and evocation then ban conjuration with incantatrix and use figments to make up for it but would that mop the floor with an lord uttercold undead caster and his minions?

I doubt it.

There's also a sweetspot issue

The shadowcraft mage becomes great once it reaches shadowcraft mage 3, so level 10 without early entry shenanigans.

The rapid conjurer was equally powerful the whole way (1-10) just like the necromancer with his minion since the minion really helps out until you get animate dead.

Even if you abuse quasireality, what are you casting exactly? Summons and blasting spells?

vs the lord uttercold necromancer with his undead minions and area of effect spells

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying they feel very similar to me.

[loky1109]

Well, no, Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 doesn't lose it. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 4/Something Else 1 loses it. So your opportunity cost for the feat was that something else, not the Incantatrix levels. And, again, this is all completely pointless, since Incantatrix gives you feats faster than Wizard so you aren't losing anything in real terms anyway.

Wizard-1/Non-wizard-1 lose 1 Wizard's bonus feat if you're aiming in 20 ECL.


since Incantatrix gives you feats faster than Wizard so you aren't losing anything in real terms anyway
Yes, Incantatrix gives more than we're losing, but this isn't the same thing "we lose nothing".
If Wizard doesn't have bonus feat on 20 level - this will be "lose nothing".

It’s a question of exact wording.

[Zanos]

You need to be a 10th level wizard to take arcane transfiguration, which is probably the best feat line in the game if you chose to specialize for some reason. But baseline, what do you actually lose from not taking pure wizard? You lose 3 bonus feats at 10/15/20, in most cases, and you lose familiar progression. However familiars are very frontloaded, and almost everything they get after level 1 either makes them more useful in combat, where they shouldn't be anyway, or is easily replaced by cheap magic items or spells. The best two abilities, speak with master and deliver touch spells, are online at level 5 anyway.

So in 15 levels of prestige classes you need to get 3 feats worth of features and however highly you value your familiar. That's not a tough bar to clear, especially considering caster prestige classes are typically very easy to enter.



I guess it depends what you're aiming for.

Arcane Discovery: Immortality (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/immortality/).
Prerequisite: You must be at least a 20th-level Wizard to select this discovery.

They capitalise Wizard all over the arcane discoveries, guessing that means actual class levels in wizard, not just caster levels...
Pathfinder is a different beast, you lose a lot more for multi-classing and there's very few prestige classes that are actually worth taking. Most PF builds wind up being 20 levels in a base class.

[RandomPeasant]

I won't go further to explain why a wizard is better than a dread necromancer beyond spells: a wizard has way more spell versatility and that trumps any dread necromancer ability.

But that traps you in the same way, just from a different angle. If you want to beat the Dread Necromancer by being a better generalist, you should be an Elven Generalist instead of a specialist Necromancer who throws away the main benefits of being one to chase the powers of a Dread Necromancer.


And you're not losing a marginal amount of bonus HD if you PrC out of it, you lose 1 HD per level, that's taking a fairly good class feature and making it useless.

I was using "on the margin" in the economic sense. What I mean is that each time you take a PrC level, you are losing a skeleton hit die. How many hit dice of skeleton do you think Metamagic Effect is worth? Shadow Illusion? How about something less impressive, like Arcane Reach or Spellpool? Is it worth getting four hit dice on a skeleton if it means losing Supernatural Spell?


the spellpool is what you're here for but, because of the action cost, the spellpool is definitely not a combat component and it's up to the DM to decide if a particular spell is even available.

It's up to the DM if you get your favorite splatbook spells, but "the Spellpool can provide any other spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list". That's more than enough to be worthwhile, and while you can't use it in combat, you can use it with only a minimal warning.


a wizard doesn't have a spell known limit

But you do have a finite amount of gold. Learning every spell is a much higher level of optimization than people give it credit for, and the ability to use situationally-useful spells without needing to pay for them is good.


The rapid conjurer was equally powerful the whole way (1-10) just like the necromancer with his minion since the minion really helps out until you get animate dead.

But the rapid conjurer doesn't trade off with PrCs. You can just have that and still go Mage of the Arcane Order or Shadowcraft Mage or Master Specialist or Unseen Seer or Archmage (I personally wouldn't go Incantatrix in this context, as I'd rather not ban three schools, but the option is there). Similarly, if you want to cash your familiar in for a skeleton, you can do that as well. You lose out a little bit from PrCing, but by 7th level you'll have animate dead either way and one slightly elite skeleton won't tip the scales.


Even if you abuse quasireality, what are you casting exactly? Summons and blasting spells?

In my view, the big thing you are casting is spontaneously. That gives you valuable flexibility during the day, and it means that you can afford to fill more of your slots with silver bullet spells, which will provide upside in specific situations while turning into summon monster or fireball if you need general-purpose magic. Also, getting to ignore casting times lets you do very powerful things with spells that are intended as downtime magic.


vs the lord uttercold necromancer with his undead minions and area of effect spells

But the Lord of the Uttercold also benefits from PrCs. If you go Incantatrix, you can do something like an Ocular Persistent Uttercold ball lightning, which gives you unlimited Uttercold healing. I think in many cases that will be better than making your undead meatshield marginally stronger, especially as you also get to stick better metamagic on whatever regular Uttercold blasting you were planning to do.


You need to be a 10th level wizard to take arcane transfiguration, which is probably the best feat line in the game if you chose to specialize for some reason.

It's worth noting in this context that Shadowcraft Mage lets you do much the same thing (with even a relatively comparable feat investment), but with significant upside on top of it.

[liquidformat]

So in 15 levels of prestige classes you need to get 3 feats worth of features and however highly you value your familiar. That's not a tough bar to clear, especially considering caster prestige classes are typically very easy to enter.

Typically, I trade away my familiar and if I want one I take obtain familiar so I don't have to care about going into PRCs. Valuing your familiar really isn't much of a reason to single class wizard. Anyways familiar is much better with pretty much with duskblade, hexblade, beguiler, dread necromancer, and ranger since they get better BAB and HD so typically if a familiar is important to me I am not going wizard anyways.


"More real than real" shadow illusions are pretty abusive.
They really aren't anymore abusive than allowing wizards in your game is in general... I mean most of the truly abusive spells in the game appear in the PHB and either aren't accessible through Shadow Illusions or aren't made anymore powerful by shadow illusions.

[Max Caysey]

As the title says, do you guys think any of the wizard ACF are worth a 20 level investment?

Personally I really like summoning with the conjurer variants (rapid summoning + enhanced summoning) seem like it can be better than many prestige classes. If I wasn't focusing on summoning so much I'd have taken the abrupt jaunt ability but getting a summon as a standard action is a big bonus

-you also get augment summoning without wasting a feat on spell focus
-you get an enhanced version of augment summoning which is a unique ability as far as I can tell
-no need to use a certain race or waste any feats for requirements so I could play a dragonborn of bahamut warforged scout (for flight) and gain a 30' fly speed without wasting a magic item or spells on it and the immunities are especially nice (casting toxic gas spells to which you are immune is especially fun)

But are there prestige classes that blow all of that out of the water? what do you guys think?

It would be better to go focused specialist, and master specialist than full 20 levels of high summoner.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It would be better to go focused specialist, and master specialist than full 20 levels of high summoner.The fun part is if you take changeling double-specialist (transmutation and illusion) so you gain even more benefits with those two PrCs.

[Curbludgeon]

Outside of PF, epic. or gestalt builds with PrCs on only one side, I don't see Wiz 20 getting as much play.

[noob]

well let's compare each prestige class to a conjurer wizard 20

Shadowcraft Mage

-hefty requirements (race, skills, feats and high level spellcasting)
-you get to mimic my conjurer's spells and add an extra saving throw on them but you gain versatility

IMO that's a wash or maybe even worse. This time the things you lose (all the requirements) don't always make up for what you get. You can start with a different chassis, I guess that'd be something, but the other chassis are all tier 2 or lower unless you play an archivist which doesn't need to take shadowcraft mage to cast conjuration spells anyway.

The only exception would be a cleric but he can only use silent image through domain slots so that's not a lot of conjuration spells.

I'm not saying the class is a trap but it just feels like a roundabout way to cast conjuration spells like a normal wizard

Then you did not abuse this class enough: the main draw is casting miracle with low level spell slots through a combination of metamagic abuse and of their class feature to replicate evocation spells.
Casting miracle with low level spell slots provide a lot of utility and allows you to get more high level slots for your best conjuration spells.
You do need to pick up that feat that adds the spells of a domain to you spell list but that is not a huge cost.
Furthermore miracle with low level spell slots allows to be a focused specialist with much less of a penalty thus making you have even more spell slots.

[AvatarVecna]

Then you did not abuse this class enough: the main draw is casting miracle with low level spell slots through a combination of metamagic abuse and of their class feature to replicate evocation spells.
Casting miracle with low level spell slots provide a lot of utility and allows you to get more high level slots for your best conjuration spells.
You do need to pick up that feat that adds the spells of a domain to you spell list but that is not a huge cost.
Furthermore miracle with low level spell slots allows to be a focused specialist with much less of a penalty thus making you have even more spell slots.

You don't even need to try that hard to abuse. "Free Miracles" is the pinnacle, but really half the draw of Shadowcraft Mage is that you can effectively prepare a single spell (Silent Image heightened appropriately), and when you cast it, it turns into one of a few dozen different options (Silent Image, summoning stuff, or blasting stuff of the right level). With the right feats, you don't even need to prepare it, because you can spontaneously convert prepared spells into Silent Image. Now instead of preparing a single slot and having a dozen options with it, every single slot you prepare has a dozen alternate options for summoning/blasting. You can just prepare all the niche utility stuff you normally don't have room for, and who cares? You'll have the blasting/summoning you need on hand if it turns out you have to pick fights today.

[noob]

So you can do the following build illusion specialist wizard bonus feat gnome picking up school focus and heighten spell at level 1 then at level 3 pick invisible spell, then at level 5 pick arcane thesis: silent image then at level 6 pick earth sense then at level 9 pick earth spell then at level 10 pick Snowcasting then at level 12 pick eschew material components for using snowcasting easily
Breakdown: wizard 10 shadowcraft mage 3.
Therefore you can apply at level 13 4 non heighten +0 metamagics on a spell therefore allowing you to heighten the spell by 4 extra levels and you have +1 level on ground thanks to earth spell so you can now use your level 5 spell slots to cast ninth level evocation and conjuration spells.
You now need to pick arcane disciple at level 15 and you can use shadow miracle.
There is probably prcs you can take before level 10 to get more feats than just the wizard bonus feats (please note that I skipped using flaws, feats out of spells and early qualification because with all those united even the weakest characters can become T1 spellcaster just by shuffling around their feats and getting some more).
The more bonus feats you get before the earliest you can cast shadow miracle.

[RandomPeasant]

The idea that "casting miracle with low level slots" (note: this doesn't work, because miracle is not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list no matter what you do) is fair, but we have to avoid flaws because they're cheesy is bizarre. As Vecna said, Shadowcraft Mage isn't good because you can do something absurd like Shadow miracle (which, again, does not work) or >100% real illusions. It's good because it allows you to cast spontaneously from an entire school of magic and the better part of a second one, and it allows you to do that with the investment of three class levels and a small number of feats, including the metamagic feat you need to also become an Incantatrix.

[Thunder999]

I don't really see it being worth it, I can see wizard 10 with the right ACFs, but there's very little that gives you anything at 20. +2 to summoned creature's strength and con definitely isn't worth taking wizard 11-20

[noob]

(note: this doesn't work, because miracle is not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list no matter what you do)

it does works because I literally add them to the sorcerer/wizard spell list:

Arcane Disciple:

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed for that feat. You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell's level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat. Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
It adds the spells to the class list it is literally what it says.
You are in bad faith by saying it does not adds the spells to the sorcerer/wizard class list if you pick that feat with the sorcerer/wizard spell list as the chosen list.

[RandomPeasant]

it does works because I literally add them to the sorcerer/wizard spell list:

Then why do you need to take the feat? Just find some random 1st level Wizard, hit him with psychic reformation or the Dark Chaos Shuffle until he has Arcane Disciple, and you can cast Shadow miracle.

[Soranar]

it does works because I literally add them to the sorcerer/wizard spell list:

Arcane Disciple:

It adds the spells to the class list it is literally what it says.
You are in bad faith by saying it does not adds the spells to the sorcerer/wizard class list if you pick that feat with the sorcerer/wizard spell list as the chosen list.

That's a very friendly DM interpretation.

Is miracle added to your spell list, sure. But your spell list is no longer sorcerer wizard, it's sorcerer wizard + luck domain.

is miracle on the sorcerer/wizard list, it still isn't

the figment ability can only mimic spells on the sorcerer wizard spell list, not on your spell list. Those are 2 different things.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It says it adds it to your class's spell list, not your spell list. If your class is sorcerer or wizard, it adds it to your sorcerer or wizard class spell list.

[Soranar]

It says it adds it to your class's spell list, not your spell list. If your class is sorcerer or wizard, it adds it to your sorcerer or wizard class spell list.

If that were the correct interpretation than all cleric domain spells would be available to sorcerer/wizard since some NPCs took arcane disciple.

That's not how the feat works.

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list is not

add the chosen domain to the sorcerer/wizard list, it's your class list as in your character

[noob]

If that were the correct interpretation than all cleric domain spells would be available to sorcerer/wizard since some NPCs took arcane disciple.

That's not how the feat works.

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list is not

add the chosen domain to the sorcerer/wizard list, it's your class list as in your character

There is no defined concept of character spell list, there is however a concept of class spell list.

[RandomPeasant]

There is no defined concept of character spell list, there is however a concept of class spell list.

Then again, why do you need to be the one to take the feat? If it is added to a single class spell list, it shouldn't matter who adds it (conversely, if it is added to a single character's list, the Shadowcraft Mage's citation to the general list would not access it). I think there's an internally-consistent theory of the rules in there, but I don't think "you can take Arcane Disciple (Luck) and cast Shadow miracles" follows it through to its conclusion.

[noob]

Then again, why do you need to be the one to take the feat?
You do not need to take it if you are in the world where a fighter can power attack to lower the accuracy of all the people in the world.
According to rules as written it is exactly what happens with power attack.

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
It is RAI(rule as intended) that you need to take the feat to have the spells in the wizard sorcerer spell list from the pov of your character just like it is RAI that you can not lower the accuracy of everybody by power attacking.
But the raw clearly means that anyone can take arcane disciple to add the spells to the sorcerer/wizard spell list and that everybody can suffer from -50 to all their attack rolls because 10 level 5 fighters are power attacking constantly in a corner of the world for making wars harder.
However I would still take it if nobody else took arcane disciple because if everybody thinks "someone else is going to take arcane disciple, let us save a feat by not taking it" then nobody benefits from the extended spell list.

[RandomPeasant]

You do not need to take it if you are in the world where a fighter can power attack to lower the accuracy of all the people in the world.

Bad analogy. The equivalent of what you're describing would be arguing that Arcane Disciple allows everyone to cast the spells once per day. What you're claiming is akin to arguing that Power Attack reduces base attack bonus, and that you therefore do not get iterative attacks while using it. But the analogy as a whole is missing the point. I am not asking you to defend the general principle by which you are interpreting the rules here. I am asking you to explain how Arcane Disciple can make something a "sorcerer or wizard ... evocation spell" (a phrase that makes no reference to any particular character) for only a single character. What is the mechanism here?

[noob]

Bad analogy. The equivalent of what you're describing would be arguing that Arcane Disciple allows everyone to cast the spells once per day. What you're claiming is akin to arguing that Power Attack reduces base attack bonus, and that you therefore do not get iterative attacks while using it. But the analogy as a whole is missing the point. I am not asking you to defend the general principle by which you are interpreting the rules here. I am asking you to explain how Arcane Disciple can make something a "sorcerer or wizard ... evocation spell" (a phrase that makes no reference to any particular character) for only a single character. What is the mechanism here?

It does not lowers base attack bonus, it lowers all attack rolls
Nowhere does it specifies "your attack rolls" they just say "all attack rolls"
Power attack is extremely dysfunctional.


On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
So you power attack for -20 to attack rolls and your wizard friend then miss his searing ray then the goblin attacking you misses you and so on.

[RandomPeasant]

it does not lowers base attack bonus, it lowers all attack rolls

Exactly. And Arcane Disciple adds to "your class list", not "your class's list". The alternative is a world in which the existence of any Warmage with Arcane Disciple (Luck) implies that all Warmages can spontaneously cast miracle. Or that you can come up with something that supports the distinction you are trying to make where a spell is on a list for the purpose of emulating spells from that list for one character, but not for emulating by other characters or learning spells.

[noob]

Exactly. And Arcane Disciple adds to "your class list", not "your class's list". The alternative is a world in which the existence of any Warmage with Arcane Disciple (Luck) implies that all Warmages can spontaneously cast miracle. Or that you can come up with something that supports the distinction you are trying to make where a spell is on a list for the purpose of emulating spells from that list for one character, but not for emulating by other characters or learning spells.

I said that the world in which power attack lowered all attack rolls then the warmage could cast miracle spontaneously as long as there was one warmage with arcane disciple so we are in total agreement on RAW.
But you disagree with my RAI and have your own RAI and no "you are wrong on your RAI" argument can be ever won on RAI.
What you are doing is 100% pointless since I did prove that the discussion was a RAI discussion and not a RAW one and so there is not one truth.

[RandomPeasant]

I said that the world in which power attack lowered all attack rolls then the warmage could cast miracle spontaneously as long as there was one warmage with arcane disciple so we are in total agreement on RAW.

Yes, I am asking you to explain how that world is in any way different from the world where Shadow miracles work at all. It seems to me that you can either argue:

A) Arcane Disciple adds spells to the class spell list, allowing anyone emulating from that list to emulate them and members of that class to learn them normally.
B) Arcane Disciple adds to your personal class list, allowing you to cast the spell, but doing nothing to effects that look up things from the general class list.

You seem to believe in the existence of an option "C" by which the spell is added to something that allows only you to emulate it, and does not allow anyone to learn it as if it were on a new list. I am asking you to explain what rules support this position. Alternatively, your argument seems to be "I should get my cheese, but other people don't get theirs", which is an argument I don't really think is worth anything.

[noob]

Yes, I am asking you to explain how that world is in any way different from the world where Shadow miracles work at all. It seems to me that you can either argue:

A) Arcane Disciple adds spells to the class spell list, allowing anyone emulating from that list to emulate them and members of that class to learn them normally.
B) Arcane Disciple adds to your personal class list, allowing you to cast the spell, but doing nothing to effects that look up things from the general class list.

You seem to believe in the existence of an option "C" by which the spell is added to something that allows only you to emulate it, and does not allow anyone to learn it as if it were on a new list. I am asking you to explain what rules support this position. Alternatively, your argument seems to be "I should get my cheese, but other people don't get theirs", which is an argument I don't really think is worth anything.
You are really not trying to interpret what I am saying if you did not understand the RAI I made.
I told you: it is entirely pointless to argue RAI questions.
The RAI I made is the following: in general feats alter how the rules works for the character that picked it(it is how it is intended because it is made by people with the same mind set as the writers of magic the gathering cards).

Normal: A class spell list contains only the spells that mentions it.
Special: When you have a feat that says it adds spells to a class list from your POW the class spell list you picked now contains those extra spells.

You can not edit the RAI I made: you can only mention the RAI You made which is not mine.
Furthermore I did not say "other should not get their cheese" just that with extra feats sources it was trivial to make any character cast all the spells ever at will thus that at that optimisation level that class was not important at all.
Just like how it is boring to just be at a table where everybody is allowed to play pun pun by saying pazuzu three times.

[RandomPeasant]

The RAI I made is the following: in general feats alter how the rules works for the character that picked it(it is how it is intended because it is made by people with the same mind set as the writers of magic the gathering cards).

Once we enter the realm of RAI, it seems to me that "Shadowcraft Mage is intended to emulate spells from the sorcerer/wizard list and not anything to do with the specific Shadowcraft Mage" is a pretty unassailable argument. Indeed, that argument seems RAW to me as well, so as far as I can tell the trick you've found is "if your DM lets you to broken things in defiance of the rules, you can do broken things", which is again not something I find terribly persuasive.

[noob]

Once we enter the realm of RAI, it seems to me that "Shadowcraft Mage is intended to emulate spells from the sorcerer/wizard list and not anything to do with the specific Shadowcraft Mage" is a pretty unassailable argument. Indeed, that argument seems RAW to me as well, so as far as I can tell the trick you've found is "if your DM lets you to broken things in defiance of the rules, you can do broken things", which is again not something I find terribly persuasive.
It is not really broken, it is just very strong unlike unlimited feats which is broken because you can just do everything with unlimited feats(ex: have an infinity of strongholds with all the magic items, an infinity of all the spells and of all the servitors and so on).
You picked a threshold for broken which is normal but not all tables will have the same threshold.

[Remuko]

im not gonna argue RAW but RAI is clearly that when you have the feat for all purposes the things added to your class list are treated as part of that classes spell list for all purposes. I'd never have imagined it meaning anything else. This is the RACSD (Rules as Common Sense Dictates) reading.

[RandomPeasant]

You picked a threshold for broken which is normal but not all tables will have the same threshold.

I'm not talking about broken at all. I'm asking for internal consistency in rules interpretation. I think "Arcane Disciple lets you do Shadow miracles if anyone has it" is an internally-consistent interpretation of the rules. I think "Arcane Disciple never lets you do Shadow miracles" is an internally-consistent interpretation of the rules. I do not think "Arcane Disciple lets you do Shadow miracles, but only if you personally take it" is an internally-consistent interpretation of the rules. I also do not think "we should assume it works this way, but ban the things that are logical consequences of it working this way because they are broken" is a compelling argument for assuming your interpretation of the rules. As a DM, I do not think I could be persuaded to allow Shadow miracles, as I have no real interest in creating problems just to immediately solve them.


im not gonna argue RAW but RAI is clearly that when you have the feat for all purposes the things added to your class list are treated as part of that classes spell list for all purposes. I'd never have imagined it meaning anything else. This is the RACSD (Rules as Common Sense Dictates) reading.

Does "all purposes" include learning spells? Can a Wizard with Arcane Disciple (Luck) learn miracle as a regular spell, and then cast it out of their regular spell slots? Can some other Wizard learn that spell? That's my issue here. People are not following through on the logical consequences of the rules interpretation they are pushing for (for instance, even then "it doesn't effect other people because reasons" version would appear to allow a Warmage to cast spells from an Arcane Disciple domain as often as he wants, since they are now on the regular Warmage list and can now be cast that way).

[noob]

Does "all purposes" include learning spells? Can a Wizard with Arcane Disciple (Luck) learn miracle as a regular spell, and then cast it out of their regular spell slots? Can some other Wizard learn that spell? That's my issue here. People are not following through on the logical consequences of the rules interpretation they are pushing for (for instance, even then "it doesn't effect other people because reasons" version would appear to allow a Warmage to cast spells from an Arcane Disciple domain as often as he wants, since they are now on the regular Warmage list and can now be cast that way).


You may learn these spells as normal for your class
Is written in arcane disciple

There is however that clause:

Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
So if we go with raw only then it will do the following: you take that feat and you are restrained in how often you cast those spells.
Other warmages do have the spell in their spell list and are not limited in the number of times they cast it because they do not have the feat and the feat mentions the owner of the feat directly for the casting cap.

Now with the RAI I made which is the same as the one of Remuko, when you take that feat for your character the spells would be in the spell list of their class, your character would be able to learn those spells normally (or not learn them if a warmage but be able to cast it straight out of the gate) then cast or prepare each spell exactly once a day because the feat says the maximum count of castings/preparations.

In fact furthermore if you pick a domain with shapechange even if you had shapechange before taking that feat now you can only cast shapechange once a day while before you could cast it as many times as you had ninth level spell slots because this feat does not differentiate the sources for determining how often you cast the spells just that they belong to the domain.

[RandomPeasant]

Is written in arcane disciple

Sure. I was unclear there, obviously you can learn them at all. I meant "learn without the restrictions". Though it seems you are willing to bite the bullet that Arcane Disciple restricts your casting of spells you already knew, so sure.


Now with the RAI I made which is the same as the one of Remuko

The RAI seems to be "the cheese I created for other people so I can do my cheese doesn't count". That's ... not very compelling. I generally reject the whole "RAI" thing as a useful sort of argument, but granting for the moment that we think that A) designers did not intend Arcane Disciple to benefit every member of your class and B) designer intent matters for how we understand the written rules, isn't the more logical implication that the feat simply doesn't do anything with "class lists" at all, and neither the "all Warmages get this" cheese nor the "Shadow miracle" cheese work at all?

[noob]

Sure. I was unclear there, obviously you can learn them at all. I meant "learn without the restrictions". Though it seems you are willing to bite the bullet that Arcane Disciple restricts your casting of spells you already knew, so sure.



The RAI seems to be "the cheese I created for other people so I can do my cheese doesn't count". That's ... not very compelling. I generally reject the whole "RAI" thing as a useful sort of argument, but granting for the moment that we think that A) designers did not intend Arcane Disciple to benefit every member of your class and B) designer intent matters for how we understand the written rules, isn't the more logical implication that the feat simply doesn't do anything with "class lists" at all, and neither the "all Warmages get this" cheese nor the "Shadow miracle" cheese work at all?
Your interpretation does not works either: each base class class that grants spells specifically mentions their own list by name.

Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).
And so if you do not add the spells to the sorcerer/wizard spell list for your character then your character will simply not be able to cast the spells because they mention the spell list exactly in the same way as they do for the shadowcraft mage.
So by your rai unless you rewrite all the base classes then the arcane disciple feat does not allows to cast new spells.

So you say my rai does not works and I say the same thing of yours and we are both agreeing on the fact the rai of the other does not seems to make any sense.

[RandomPeasant]

Your interpretation does not works either: each base class class that grants spells specifically mentions their own list by name.

So your contention is that when the Sorcerer says it learns a spell "chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list", that is a different type of thing than what the Shadowcraft Mage is referring to when it talks about a "sorcerer or wizard ... spell"? Because I find that distinction less compelling than you might imagine.


And so if you do not add the spells to the sorcerer/wizard spell list for your character then your character will simply not be able to cast the spells because they mention the spell list exactly in the same way as they do for the shadowcraft mage.

No they don't. Shadowcraft Mage (at least, the copy I'm looking at) doesn't mention spell lists at all. Arcane Disciple mentions "your class list", which is a different thing from "your class's spell list", at least potentially. I know you've rejected that distinction, arguing that the game never mentions personal class lists, but as far as I'm aware you've never pointed to anywhere it says such a thing can't or doesn't exist.


So you say my rai does not works and I say the same thing of yours and we are both agreeing on the fact the rai of the other does not seems to make any sense.

Your RAI works, it just implies things you're not willing to accept. So you're adding these extra layers where "class list" in this context means some of the things it means in other contexts (you can emulate spells off it), but not others (other members of your class can learn the spell). That's what doesn't make sense. You have a valid model. It implies that Shadow miracle works. But it also implies that Warmages know every spell that appears on the list of any domain any Warmage has selected with Arcane Disciple. It implies those things equally strongly and for the exact same reasons.

[noob]

No they don't. Shadowcraft Mage (at least, the copy I'm looking at) doesn't mention spell lists at all. Arcane Disciple mentions "your class list", which is a different thing from "your class's spell list", at least potentially. I know you've rejected that distinction, arguing that the game never mentions personal class lists, but as far as I'm aware you've never pointed to anywhere it says such a thing can't or doesn't exist.



Your RAI works, it just implies things you're not willing to accept. So you're adding these extra layers where "class list" in this context means some of the things it means in other contexts (you can emulate spells off it), but not others (other members of your class can learn the spell). That's what doesn't make sense. You have a valid model. It implies that Shadow miracle works. But it also implies that Warmages know every spell that appears on the list of any domain any Warmage has selected with Arcane Disciple. It implies those things equally strongly and for the exact same reasons.
You do not understand the rai I told you.
I said that the rules of the universe are local to each character.
Just like how cards override the rules of the base game in mtg feats override the rules of the base game for the characters that picks them up.
so you are a warmage and you pick arcane disciple: luck , now for your scope and your way to interact with the world miracle is a warmage spell.


So your contention is that when the Sorcerer says it learns a spell "chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list", that is a different type of thing than what the Shadowcraft Mage is referring to when it talks about a "sorcerer or wizard ... spell"? Because I find that distinction less compelling than you might imagine.
You literally did read the opposite of what I said and that makes me angry, I do not want to talk with someone who reads the opposite of what I say!
I was explaining that it was the same thing and you interpret as me saying it is different!

[RandomPeasant]

If the intention is for Arcane Disciple to effect only you, why is the mechanism for realizing that intent "Arcane Disciple modifies the global spell list for your class, but those modifications are scoped only to you" rather than "Arcane Disciple modifies your personal copy of your class spell list, only your ability to learn new spells sees those modifications, everything else uses the global version"? Why should we accept an interpretation of the rules that creates a problem only to immediately close it? Where are the rules that invalidate the idea of a personal version of a class spell list and require us to accept the version of RAW where Shadow miracles happen at all?

[Scots Dragon]

Given that miracle specifically requires the invocation of a deity to perform the actions... I'd allow a shadow miracle.

It would just have Consequences™, since I doubt the deity of your good or neutral aligned shadowcraft mage inhabits the Plane of Shadow. It should be the sort of workaround that winds up opening you up to attracting attention from something malevolent and powerful, and perhaps it might grant the request you ask, but it'll be paying attention, and your own actual deity that you have the arcane disciple feat with might not necessarily approve of this method.

EDIT:
I'd probably actually start some kinda growing 'shadow taint' that starts transforming the character to a degree from the time they first cast miracle, with 'taint points' that have a chance of increasing every time they cast a shadow spell. Basically roll d20 every time they cast a shadow-descriptor spell, and add a point every time that the result is equal to or lower than the spell level of the simulated spell or the base shadow spell, whichever is higher. A natural 1 would add two points. Using a miracle adds a couple of points automatically. These points actually add to the percentage of reality of their shadow spells, to make them a little tempting to actually use.

When these points add up to the character's wisdom score, the shadow plane starts visibly affecting them. They gain a few elements from the shadow template and their alignment shifts to neutral if not already. After the taint reaches twice wisdom, they get the rest of the elements and their alignment shifts to neutral evil and they become a vassal of the dark power that has its hooks into them.

Naturally this would be a scenario hook with the opportunity to reverse the effects and free themselves from the shadow taint, while the shadow entity influencing them becomes the new BBEG for now.

[noob]

Given that miracle specifically requires the invocation of a deity to perform the actions... I'd allow a shadow miracle.

It would just have Consequences™, since I doubt the deity of your good or neutral aligned shadowcraft mage inhabits the Plane of Shadow. It should be the sort of workaround that winds up opening you up to attracting attention from something malevolent and powerful, and perhaps it might grant the request you ask, but it'll be paying attention, and your own actual deity that you have the arcane disciple feat with might not necessarily approve of this method.

EDIT:
I'd probably actually start some kinda growing 'shadow taint' that starts transforming the character to a degree from the time they first cast miracle, with 'taint points' that have a chance of increasing every time they cast a shadow spell. Basically roll d20 every time they cast a shadow-descriptor spell, and add a point every time that the result is equal to or lower than the spell level of the simulated spell or the base shadow spell, whichever is higher. A natural 1 would add two points. Using a miracle adds a couple of points automatically. These points actually add to the percentage of reality of their shadow spells, to make them a little tempting to actually use.

When these points add up to the character's wisdom score, the shadow plane starts visibly affecting them. They gain a few elements from the shadow template and their alignment shifts to neutral if not already. After the taint reaches twice wisdom, they get the rest of the elements and their alignment shifts to neutral evil and they become a vassal of the dark power that has its hooks into them.

Naturally this would be a scenario hook with the opportunity to reverse the effects and free themselves from the shadow taint, while the shadow entity influencing them becomes the new BBEG for now.

Maybe it does something worse: creates a shadow god in the planes of shadows each time you cast a shadow miracle.
Now you have a hundred and ten problems that are all 110% real
How 110% real divine salient abilities works? Only them knows.
For your plan there is multiple easily pickable creatures that can be the culprit: Nerull, the shadow,Lolth,Mask, Set, Shar, Shargaas.(depends on the setting)

[Scots Dragon]

Given that Ravenloft was relocated into the 'Shadowfell' in 4th and 5th edition, I was actually initially thinking the Dark Powers might be what's taking notice, and slowly transforming the player into a Darklord. I'd mostly dropped that before I got around to writing the post, admittedly.

[Remuko]

I dont understand how this is complicated. If you have the feat then whenever you, the one with the feat, do anything that involves the spell list mentioned in the feat, you are treated as having that spell on that class list. If a feat says you have miracle added to the Sorc/Wiz list, then you, the one with that feat are always treated as if that is a spell on the Sorc/Wiz list for any purposes. I really don't see how this isn't the obvious and imo, only reasonable way to understand it.

Also idk what all these cheese talk is about, I don't even play wizards or shadowcraft mages or anything like that, idc about cheese, I care about rules and feats working in ways that make sense, and this makes sense. If it enables cheese, oh well. Something enabling cheese you don't like isn't a good reason to not rule about it sensibly. If the cheese bothers you ban the specific cheese don't try to come up with some weird interpretation of something straightforward to claim it doesn't work.

thats my 2cp. im out.

[liquidformat]

You don't even need to try that hard to abuse. "Free Miracles" is the pinnacle, but really half the draw of Shadowcraft Mage is that you can effectively prepare a single spell (Silent Image heightened appropriately), and when you cast it, it turns into one of a few dozen different options (Silent Image, summoning stuff, or blasting stuff of the right level). With the right feats, you don't even need to prepare it, because you can spontaneously convert prepared spells into Silent Image. Now instead of preparing a single slot and having a dozen options with it, every single slot you prepare has a dozen alternate options for summoning/blasting. You can just prepare all the niche utility stuff you normally don't have room for, and who cares? You'll have the blasting/summoning you need on hand if it turns out you have to pick fights today.

Quick question for my own edification as I am not a master of the rules but I thought you can't add metamagic to spontaneously converted slots?


There is no defined concept of character spell list, there is however a concept of class spell list.

aren't 'class name' spells known and spellbook defined concepts?...

[AvatarVecna]

Quick question for my own edification as I am not a master of the rules but I thought you can't add metamagic to spontaneously converted slots?

Spontaneous casters get to play with metamagic too, and this is just a different kind of spontaneous casting.

The particular method I was thinking of was the "Signature Spell" feat applied to Silent Image. It specifies that it functions just like cleric's spontaneous conversion of prepared spells into cure/inflict. Which...

Link (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats)


Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats
A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.

...is explicitly allowed to be combined with metamagic feats.

[liquidformat]

useful stuff

ah, thanks for some reason I thought there were different rules for spontaneously casting from a prepared caster vs from a spontaneous caster but it does make sense that there wouldn't be and that makes it more straightforward.

[Darg]

That may technically be the RAW of it, but even WotC didn't really believe it worked that way. If you look at, for instance, the sample Rage Mage (Complete Warrior, page 73), she has spells known past what she'd get from her Sorcerer levels, despite the Rage Mage not having the "and also spells known" language (other applicable sample NPCs seem to have the error, but it's hard to say since they're all Wizards and I'm not doing the wealth math). You can argue that it's an editing error, but I would argue right back that the editing error is the fact that the text doesn't say you get spell knowledge. I've certainly never seen a DM rule that you don't get your spells known because of it, especially because the vast majority of PrCs (including the best ones) do have the language, so it's mostly just another way to kick people who want to play weird and cool PrCs in the teeth for not playing an Incantatrix like they're supposed to.

If you can figure out how 9 effective sorcerer levels give 2 5th level spells when that requires 11 effective sorcerer levels then your argument has merit.

At the end of the day, PRCs are templates. Not to be taken as is. You are supposed to tailor them to your campaign. RAW for PRCs is as meaningful as a small ice cube in the desert sand.


just like it is RAI that you can not lower the accuracy of everybody by power attacking.
But the raw clearly means that anyone can take arcane disciple to add the spells to the sorcerer/wizard spell list and that everybody can suffer from -50 to all their attack rolls because 10 level 5 fighters are power attacking constantly in a corner of the world for making wars harder.


Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat
description) to do.

RAW says the feat applies to the character. If you think it doesn't:


Description of what the feat does or represents in plain language.

You can make exceptionally powerful melee attacks.

If you want to say that the plain text has no bearing, keep in mind that for many feats the plain text is the only thing that gives the effect of the feat directly to the character:


QUICKEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can cast a spell with a moment’s thought.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

The SRD quicken spell doesn't actually give you anything.

[Endarire]

As someone who made Wizards his favorite go-to class for many years, the answer depends on what you mean.

Is Wizard20 worthwhile compared to ACFs and PRCs from WotC, Paizo, and other sources if they're allowed? Mechanically, no, as previous posters mentioned. Incantatrix, Hathran, Shadowcraft Mage, and other PrCs simply progress Wizard casting and give notable class features.

Is Wizard's Vancian 'prepare every spell before casting' mechanics worthwhile compared to a pure spontaneous caster like a Sor or getting some means of casting your spells spontaneously? After years of playing this way for years - because Sors were gimped in learning most new spell levels a character level later - I just don't like having to call every shot/prepare every spell before use. Your preference may vary.

Is the Wizard spell list worth using? The answer is normally a definitive and resounding "AYE!" Much of 3.5's balance was built around access to spells of X level at Y character level in Z context.