Is the Graceful Edge Feat Ever Worthwhile?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dungeon #128 has the Graceful Edge feat, which reads (mostly) as follows:

"Choose one type of one-handed slashing melee weapon, such as a scimitar or longsword, for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You wield this weapon with an almost unnatural grace. If you do not wield a shield or weapon in your off-hand, you treat your chosen weapon as a light weapon. If you do not wield a shield or weapon in your off-hand, you also gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC while wielding your chosen weapon. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2."

So far as I know, unless you're dual-wielding (which this feat forbids), you always want to treat a weapon wielded in 1 hand as a 1-handed weapon, because numerous effects, such as disarm and sunder attempts against you, are more difficult against larger weapons. So is this just exchanging a feat for a nerf (and a piddly shield bonus that's worse than actually wielding a shield)?

Basically, wielding a light weapon is for your off-hand. Why on Oerth would you want your main weapon treated as a light weapon instead of a 1-handed weapon?

[Wildstag]

Looks like it allows those weapons to work with Weapon Finesse, so anything that keys off of that feat can be used with those higher-damage-die weapons.

[Jervis]

Looks like it allows those weapons to work with Weapon Finesse, so anything that keys off of that feat can be used with those higher-damage-die weapons.

This basically. The shield bonus is gravy but not using a shield is pretty unfortunate.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Seems to me that saying, "you can use that weapon with Weapon Finesse" would be significantly better.

Thanks for the answers.

[daremetoidareyo]

A one handed dual weapon?

[Particle_Man]

You can use it in a grapple?

[Saintheart]

Some random thoughts, haven't thought them entirely through:

(1) Large versions of one-handed slashing weapons under Monkey Grip and Graceful Edge become light weapons. Don't know if that helps.

(2) Synergises with stuff like Einhander, which also requires single weapon use.

(3) Combat Cloak Expert. The first technique is literally this feat in a different form, but the second allows you to conceal "a light weapon" and pull it using a Bluff vs. Sense Motive check, thus denying DEX bonus to AC. Your katana or dwarven waraxe can now be used with this, as well as all the martial weapons.

(4) Flick of the Wrist works with any light weapon, so, flatfoot opponents at the start of combat with pretty much any one-handed weapon.

(5) Lion Tribe Warrior, Snow Tribe Berserker grant in effect Pounce, but only with "a single light weapon" as part of the charge. Not anymore, any one-handed weapon works for it as well. Use either of these to close to range, then put two hands on it for the full attack.

(5) Inlindl School would grant you in effect a +0.5 to attacks, but not sure how much good that gets.

(6) If you're using Parry rules out of Dragon 301 this would give you a +4 to your parries, since the weapon's a light weapon.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you do not wield a shield or weapon in your off-hand, you treat your chosen weapon as a light weapon. Wielding a colossal sized scimitar ain't worth it or what? ^^

It's the same mechanic that unarmed strikes can abuse with the Sizing enhancement. Sure you have to face toHit penalties, similar to Power Attack, but it should still be worth it. Especially if you are aiming for a crit build (giving the +4 to confirm criticals feat a reason to take).

[Max Caysey]

Dungeon #128 has the Graceful Edge feat, which reads (mostly) as follows:

"Choose one type of one-handed slashing melee weapon, such as a scimitar or longsword, for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You wield this weapon with an almost unnatural grace. If you do not wield a shield or weapon in your off-hand, you treat your chosen weapon as a light weapon. If you do not wield a shield or weapon in your off-hand, you also gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC while wielding your chosen weapon. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2."

So far as I know, unless you're dual-wielding (which this feat forbids), you always want to treat a weapon wielded in 1 hand as a 1-handed weapon, because numerous effects, such as disarm and sunder attempts against you, are more difficult against larger weapons. So is this just exchanging a feat for a nerf (and a piddly shield bonus that's worse than actually wielding a shield)?

Basically, wielding a light weapon is for your off-hand. Why on Oerth would you want your main weapon treated as a light weapon instead of a 1-handed weapon?

It makes it possible to use weapon finnesse with a one handed weapon! Seems pretty great to me, for some builds. Like gishes!

[InvisibleBison]

Wielding a colossal sized scimitar ain't worth it or what? ^^

A colossal scimitar isn't a one-handed weapon for a medium character, though. I don't think this would work.


It makes it possible to use weapon finnesse with a one handed weapon! Seems pretty great to me, for some builds. Like gishes!

How much of an advantage is a one-handed weapon over a real light one? If all the feat does is let you use weapon finesse with a longsword instead of a shortsword, you're really just getting an extra point of damage on average, which does not seem worthwhile.

[zlefin]

It lets you get a shield bonus while keeping a hand free to do somatic components for casting. Fairly niche, but perhaps it could be mildly useful in some gish build. There are far better feats out there ofc.

I don't know if there's any other situation where keeping a hand free while maintaining shield ac would be helpful; maybe some sort of throwing build that needs a free hand to draw and throw weapons.

[Gruftzwerg]

A colossal scimitar isn't a one-handed weapon for a medium character, though. I don't think this would work.


yeah, normally it would go off the chart and thus become unwieldable:


Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

The feat is not limited to 1h slashing weapon types for your size. Neither are you forced to make a choice regarding the size when picking up the feat. A colossal scimitar is still a one handed weapon in general (for creatures of it's size) and thus qualifies here by RAW. And since the feat is more specific, the colossal weapon becomes a light weapon. (Again, note the -2 penalty per size category difference that still remains).
Sure, probably not the intention of the designers (RAI), but that is the same for unarmed strikes and natural weapons. That's the reason why I did make the comparison with unarmed strikes in my first post.

[FauxKnee]

Depending on your interpretation, Graceful Edge + a feycraft (DMGII) weapon may negate your need to pick up Weapon Finesse. If you're playing a build that would normally grab Weapon Finesse anyway (and you probably are if you're considering Graceful Edge) then there's some handy synergy. (A feycraft weapon that "is normally considered light" grants the benefit of Weapon Finesse for a very affordable price. Up to the reader whether Graceful Edge creates a "new normal" for that particular wielder, or if "normal" is always referring to the weapon's properties in a commoner's hands.)

[Sir_Chivalry]

Depending on your interpretation, Graceful Edge + a feycraft (DMGII) weapon may negate your need to pick up Weapon Finesse. If you're playing a build that would normally grab Weapon Finesse anyway (and you probably are if you're considering Graceful Edge) then there's some handy synergy. (A feycraft weapon that "is normally considered light" grants the benefit of Weapon Finesse for a very affordable price. Up to the reader whether Graceful Edge creates a "new normal" for that particular wielder, or if "normal" is always referring to the weapon's properties in a commoner's hands.)

Considering how many eggs are in one basket, I'd allow it. Especially since you're likely approaching the halfway point of Age of Worms by the time someone is teaching you this so you need all the help you can get

[ShurikVch]

Elegant Strike - 2nd-level CF for Champion of Corellon Larethian - allow to add your Dex bonus to damage; Graceful Edge + Weapon Finesse = less need for Str (presuming you're OK with using a longsword or Elven Thinblade)

[Thurbane]

This feat looks like something I should add to my Weapon Finesse+ list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599432-3-5-Weapon-Finesse&p=24177555#post24177555).

[Fouredged Sword]

I think this feat is expressly inferior to wielding a rapier where you get weapon finesse while still keeping your full strength bonus to damage and can even wield the rapier two handed while still using weapon finesse to get 1.5x strength to damage.

If you really want to burn a feat to get a slightly bigger damage die for your weapon Exotic Weapon Prof elven thinblade seems still superior. It has the 1d8 damage of a longsword, the 18-20 crit range of a scimitar, and the ability to use weapon finesse while still being a one handed weapon you can wield two handed if desired of a rapier.

I can't see the use for Graceful Edge outside of needing to wield specifically something slashing or a specific type of weapon like the Dervish class.

And even then, the elven courtblade is 1d10, 18-20 crit, two handed so double power attack and 1.5x str to damage, piercing AND slashing damage, and still weapon finesseable.

[Saintheart]

One other note - the feat Unorthodox Flurry from the Dragon Compendiuum allows you to flurry with any one light weapon you choose, so if as a Monk you had some desire to flurry with a one-handed weapon outside the Special Monk ones and you can get better damage out of the weapon than you can unarmed, Graceful Edge could be useful. I seem to remember some of the Dragon magazines allow you to pick one weapon to add to a flurry, though.

Also, since the weapon for Graceful Edge has to be a slashing weapon wielded in one hand, it would synergise with Snowflake Wardance at least. Perform (Flute) and carry your flute in the off hand for blowing on and your sword in the other?

EDIT: Also:


I think this feat is expressly inferior to wielding a rapier where you get weapon finesse while still keeping your full strength bonus to damage and can even wield the rapier two handed while still using weapon finesse to get 1.5x strength to damage.

Can't do that underlined bit, explicitly. Per the SRD on the rapier:


You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage.

[Nihilarian]

having to spend 2 feats to flurry with something seems like bad value. The longsword or spear flurry are probably not that great mechanically either, but at least it only takes one feat.

graceful edge strikes me as similar to taking a Weapon Proficiency feat. All it will probably amount to is a +1 or 2 damage on average over whatever you would be using otherwise. You need an outlier weapon like Spike Chain for it to really be worth it.

[Blackhawk748]

So far as I know, unless you're dual-wielding (which this feat forbids), you always want to treat a weapon wielded in 1 hand as a 1-handed weapon, because numerous effects, such as disarm and sunder attempts against you, are more difficult against larger weapons. So is this just exchanging a feat for a nerf (and a piddly shield bonus that's worse than actually wielding a shield)?

Note that it says YOU, meaning that anyone trying to disarm or sunder your weapon wouldn't get the bonus, because you would just stop treating it as a Light Weapon when they do that, because there's no action cost to doing that.


Seems to me that saying, "you can use that weapon with Weapon Finesse" would be significantly better.

Thanks for the answers.

Because treating it as Light does a whole ton of other things. Someone said using it in a grapple, I know there's a bunch of feats and class abilities that require it to be Light.

[Eladrinblade]

You could use an unarmed strike in your off-hand for TWF. Not sure why you'd bother.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could use an unarmed strike in your off-hand for TWF. Not sure why you'd bother.Only if you have Versatile Unarmed Strike, Beast Strike with a claw attack (maybe), or some other ability to make unarmed strikes a slashing weapon.

I could see it being useful if you got TWF for free (or very cheap), had a significant chance to hit (such as from a very high Str or Dex score), and rider effects on your unarmed strikes (say, Touch of Golden Ice, or psionic minor creation touch-poison). This build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863), for instance, would make decent use of it.

[Eladrinblade]

It doesn't say anything about not using unarmed strikes in your off-hand.

[Nihilarian]

Unarmed Strikes don't even have to have anything 5o do with your hand so it's probably not a problem

On the other hand if you put in the work to make US worth bothering with you're likely better off focusing on that