Superior Invisibility

[Vault756]

Are there ways to get superior Invisibility without being a wizard or sorcerer? I am not looking for myself but rather wondering how highly I should value acquiring either truesight or blind sight. I currently have See Invisibility permanently so anything short of Superior invis is covered. Are there any items or class features that can replicate this effect.

[Wildstag]

Beguiler gets Advanced Learning at 19th such that you can take the spell. It'd fit the Beguiler them too, I think.

[NinjaGuy]

It's not quite as thorough as Superior Invisibility, but Darkstalker and a nice Hide/ Move Silently (or better yet Silence spell) gets most of the benefits, and can be used much sooner.

[Anthrowhale]

An arcane disciple cleric could get it as well.

More generally, any caster with known spells could potentially get it via Dragonblood Spell-pact.

[King of Nowhere]

I'd point out that true sight also defeats illusions. You can see invisible creatures, but can still be neutralized by mirror images

[Jack_Simth]

I'd point out that true sight also defeats illusions. You can see invisible creatures, but can still be neutralized by mirror images

Yes, but that's considerably more expensive to get full time (Hathran Mask of True Seeing is something like 75k if I recall correctly; See Invisibility can be gotten from Permanency for 1,000 xp - you'll burn three times that crafting the mask), and also has that pesky 120 foot limitation (See Invisibility, on the other hand, is line of sight).

Yes, within range, True Seeing is much better. And most fights will be in less than 120 feet anyway. But the differences are notable.

[Doctor Despair]

Monks, at level 2, can essentially get Improved Invisibility with a duration of 1 round per use as an ACF. At-will, but with a cooldown. It's in Exemplars of Evil

[liquidformat]

Mage of the Arcane Order level 7 class feature can obtain Superior Invisibility too.


It's not quite as thorough as Superior Invisibility, but Darkstalker and a nice Hide/ Move Silently (or better yet Silence spell) gets most of the benefits, and can be used much sooner.

Having hide/move silently skills maxed with associated gear is better than any invisibility spell for overcoming true seeing and see invisibility since neither help you at all to see things hiding through mundane means. Darkstalker doesn't grant you any benefits to counteract true seeing/see invisible but helps you with things like blindsight, scent, and such.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Get Blindsight instead, it's useful much more often. You don't need True Seeing permanently active in most games.
I'd suggest getting a Scout's Headband (MIC) in case it ever comes up and only upgrading that if it becomes necessary.

There's no point putting a giant chunk of your WBL into something you'll barely ever use.


I'd point out that true sight also defeats illusions. You can see invisible creatures, but can still be neutralized by mirror images

Blindsight defeats Mirror Image (and most other illusions, notably Blur/Displacement) and is much cheaper to get than True Seeing.

[Jack_Simth]

Mage of the Arcane Order level 7 class feature can obtain Superior Invisibility too.Mage of the Arcane Order's spell pool actually specifies the "No 0-level spells are available, but the Spellpool can provide any other spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list in the Player's Handbook, as well as any additional spells designated by the DM." (emphasis added)

So it'll only have Superior Invisibility if the DM adds it (Greater Invisibility yes - that's PHB - Superior Invisibility no).

Get Blindsight instead, it's useful much more often. You don't need True Seeing permanently active in most games.
I'd suggest getting a Scout's Headband (MIC) in case it ever comes up and only upgrading that if it becomes necessary.

There's no point putting a giant chunk of your WBL into something you'll barely ever use.
There are a few big gotcha's with True Seeing that you need to turn on:
1) You have to realize you need it.
2) You need to take the action to use it.
3) Hope you didn't guess wrong, because you can only do that occasionally.

If there happens to be a shapeshifter in the King's Court, the Hathran Mask will let you know very quickly (the first time you encounter them). The Scout's Headband... well, if you have a few people you suspect, then you can check. Once a day. And if you don't know you need to check? You've got a problem. And some people might get offended by you seeing if they're frauds. And some folks might have minor illusions that they don't want you seeing through (e.g., covering up their gray hair).

Is it worth the price of admission? Eh, probably not generally. However... the context of this discussion is Superior Invisibility, and Blindsight does bupkis for that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Is it worth the price of admission? Eh, probably not generally. However... the context of this discussion is Superior Invisibility, and Blindsight does bupkis for that.
The OP did ask how highly he should value it.

Superior Invis usually doesn't come up often enough to justify buying a permanent True Seeing item just to counter it, and most of its other uses can be covered by cheaper options.
I guess i could have been clearer about that.

Yes, permanent True Seeing can obviously be useful and if you're fighting a group of sneaky shapeshifting illusionists you should definitely pick it up ASAP.
But that very specific case aside it's just not useful enough in most games to justify the cost if you're getting it from an item.

Someone in the party should have access to it in case it comes up, but if you're sticking reasonably close to WBL there's pretty much always going to be something that'll be a better investment.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Anything with sufficiently advanced technology wizard/sorcerer casting could have it, including many dragons. Also, any higher level spell-to-power erudite could have it, as could any psionic manifester who learned it from one via psychic chirurgery. Also also anything with sufficient UMD and a scroll (etc).

[Vault756]

Mage of the Arcane Order level 7 class feature can obtain Superior Invisibility too.

Having hide/move silently skills maxed with associated gear is better than any invisibility spell for overcoming true seeing and see invisibility since neither help you at all to see things hiding through mundane means. Darkstalker doesn't grant you any benefits to counteract true seeing/see invisible but helps you with things like blindsight, scent, and such.


Monks, at level 2, can essentially get Improved Invisibility with a duration of 1 round per use as an ACF. At-will, but with a cooldown. It's in Exemplars of Evil

Looking for options to see through Invisibility, specifically the Superior variety. Not options for becoming invisible.


Get Blindsight instead, it's useful much more often. You don't need True Seeing permanently active in most games.
I'd suggest getting a Scout's Headband (MIC) in case it ever comes up and only upgrading that if it becomes necessary.

There's no point putting a giant chunk of your WBL into something you'll barely ever use.



Blindsight defeats Mirror Image (and most other illusions, notably Blur/Displacement) and is much cheaper to get than True Seeing.

Blindsight just gets hosed by them having the Darkstalker feat though and at any level where you are expecting people to have Superior Invisibility they've probably got a spare feat to take Darkstalker somewhere along the way. The headband is probably fine for what I need it for though. We have a Sorcerer that can cast True Seeing most of the time, I just don't like relying on the Sorcerer all the time. The headband should be enough to get my by when they're not around or dont have the spell available

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psions and crystal masters get access to touchsight, which is almost impossible to get past (even with Darkstalker), unless you interpose cover, or you're incorporeal or ethereal, although cover doesn't work if they apply Burrowing Power to it, and even ethereality doesn't work with Transdimensional Power.

[Doctor Despair]

Psions and crystal masters get access to touchsight, which is almost impossible to get past (even with Darkstalker), unless you interpose cover, or you're incorporeal or ethereal, although cover doesn't work if they apply Burrowing Power to it, and even ethereality doesn't work with Transdimensional Power.

Incorporeality without ethereality should foil it

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Incorporeality without ethereality should foil it...Actually, upon a reread, Transdimensional touchsight does work just fine on incorporeal critters.

"A transdimensional power has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space in the power's area."

Oops.

[Doctor Despair]

...Actually, upon a reread, Transdimensional touchsight does work just fine on incorporeal critters.

"A transdimensional power has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space in the power's area."

Oops.

Upon review, I don't think touchsight plays nice with burrowing power

Edit: To clarify: burrowing power allows your powers to be manifested against targets that you don't have LOE to. The target of touchsight is you; it's personal. You always have line of effect to yourself, so burrowing power doesn't help. The reading where you'd want it is that touchsight targets those you're seeing, but that isn't the case.

[Anthrowhale]

A couple common super-senses are Lifesense (requires Con -) and Mindsight (requires telepathy). Neither of these are good for targeting but they would plausibly penetrate Superior Invisibility.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Upon review, I don't think touchsight plays nice with burrowing power

Edit: To clarify: burrowing power allows your powers to be manifested against targets that you don't have LOE to. The target of touchsight is you; it's personal. You always have line of effect to yourself, so burrowing power doesn't help. The reading where you'd want it is that touchsight targets those you're seeing, but that isn't the case.It does say "A transdimensional power has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures," and its effect in this case is to sense them.

[Doctor Despair]

It does say "A transdimensional power has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures," and its effect in this case is to sense them.

Transdimensional power at least says its effects affect incorporeal creatures instead of saying you can use it against incorporeal targets. It probably works as intended whereas Burrowing Power would not

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Transdimensional power at least says its effects affect incorporeal creatures instead of saying you can use it against incorporeal targets. It probably works as intended whereas Burrowing Power would notAck. I was having a minor anxiety attack and got mixed up. Apologies.

I hate that WotC can't seem to stop using official game terms as common English terms and vice-versa, so you never know whether a term is one or the other. Touchsight allows you to "see" targets, but not Targets, since it doesn't have a Target entry in its description that isn't "you." So does Burrowing Power only work on Targeted powers, or can you not use it on things like energy ball, energy ray, and energy bolt? None of those have Targets, even if they do have targets. Problem is, you can only manifest a Targeted Burrowing Power if you can see (or "see") through walls, else it's useless. And one of the few ways to "see" through walls is via Burrowing Power'd touchsight, which you can't do if you can only use it against Targets. So that basically makes Targeted Burrowing Power both pointless and worthless, unless you're manifesting through a glass window or similar.

[liquidformat]

Blindsight just gets hosed by them having the Darkstalker feat though and at any level where you are expecting people to have Superior Invisibility they've probably got a spare feat to take Darkstalker somewhere along the way.

And yet like I already pointed out blindsight still gives you a chance to see someone with darkstalker that is hiding; whereas true seeing/see invisible gives you no such help.


A couple common super-senses are Lifesense (requires Con -) and Mindsight (requires telepathy). Neither of these are good for targeting but they would plausibly penetrate Superior Invisibility.
I am always a fan of Nemesis especially Nemesis (Evil) and Nemesis (arcanists)