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View Full Version : Optimization Mini-Guide to Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse PC Races!



LudicSavant
2022-02-21, 06:36 AM
Hoo boy, does this book shake up PC races. There's a whopping 33 races (39 including subrace options), and many of them are strong. There's a lot for optimizers to digest here. I'll try to be quick about it (I already had to cut down my original writeup because it told me the post was too big!)

Anyways, here are my early impressions.

Bugbear
Hobgoblins and Goblins have always been strong in 5e, but Bugbears got left behind.

Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Multiverse changes that in a big way. For one thing, they are now a liquid.
https://c.tenor.com/Y_gs772PLrkAAAAC/cat-liquid.gif
Pictured: A Bugbear, now capable of moving in spaces for Small creatures without Squeezing. Also has Fey Ancestry now.

Bugbears have a good assortment of minor extras. Darkvision, a skill proficiency, Fey Ancestry, Powerful Build, the ability to move in spaces for Small creatures without squeezing, and Long Limbs (situationally useful for hit-and-run attacks against foes with a small reach. Don't expect it to extend the range of Booming Blade or anything, though).

But the big change is that Surprise Attack has changed from "if you get Surprise, you do +2d6 damage on a single attack" to "if an enemy hasn't acted yet, you get +2d6 damage on all of your attacks."

This works on any kind of attack. Swords? Yep. Bows? You got it. Eldritch Blast? Mhm. Spiritual Weapon, Crown of Stars, Scorching Ray, Blade of Disaster? That's right. The AoE of Steel Wind Strike? Yep, that too. That Reaction attack the Order Cleric made you take? Yes, even that. They all do an extra +2d6 damage per hit.

This change turns Bugbears from something that were generally ignored by optimizers into a deadly offensive contender. Grab your Alerts, Fey-Touched Gifts of Alacrities, your Luckies, your Gloomstalkers and War Wizards and Battle Masters with the new Ambush maneuver and go forth, my children. Be a bugbear, leap out of a crack in the wall and eat someone's face before they get to act.

Do it as a Flurrying Monk dipping Fighter for Action Surge.
Do it as a Gloomstalker Echo Knight projecting their Echo Avatar to assassinate someone from 1000 feet away.
Do it as a Sorlock Quickening Eldritch Blasts.
Do it as an Evoker Overchanneling a Scorching Ray and firing a Crown of Stars bolt alongside their Simulacrum doing the same.
Do it dipping Assassin so that you get Advantage on all attacks before your enemy takes a turn (don’t even worry about the “getting Surprise” clause).

Go. Be a big brutal sneaky liquid fairy goblinoid, that your enemies may know to fear the Bugbear that’s hiding in your closet right now.

Kobolds
https://tinyurl.com/2j26c8a9
Pictured: A Kobold lets loose a Draconic Cry

New Kobolds are strong. Damn strong.

Draconic Cry is a bonus action that gives you Advantage on all of your attacks, and all of your allies’ attacks, for an entire round, proficiency bonus times a day. Bloody hells, even if this was only affecting you, it’d be like a Samurai’s Fighting Spirit offensively. As a racial feature. And it doesn’t only affect you, it affects your whole damn party!

And unlike old kobolds, you aren’t paying for this with any drawbacks. No Sunlight Sensitivity, no ability penalties, nothing.

What, that’s not enough for you? You need more features? Well guess what, you get to pick one of three subrace choices:
Craftiness will give you a skill proficiency, Defiance will get you fear resistance, and Draconic Sorcery will get you a Sorcerer cantrip with your choice of mental casting stat.

The cantrip option offers some interesting possibilities: You could give a Bard an actually solid attack cantrip, a Cleric or Rogue a Booming Blade, or just hand a Wizard more space for great cantrips (there’s enough good ones on their list for that to matter). The skill proficiency or fear resistance are good choices if there aren’t any cantrips you want for your build.

And you get Darkvision on top.

The one thing I'll note is that Draconic Cry requires you to get close (though you don't need to stay there). The kobold race is ideal for characters who...
- Don't have overwhelming bonus action competition.
- Are comfortable getting in close now and then.
- Benefit significantly from Advantage and/or have party members who do.
- Are looking for a way to pick up a Sorcerer cantrip (basically, the same characters who liked High Elf or Variant). Or not, because they can just take another subrace.

Aarakocra
Aarakocra got their wild 50 foot movement speed nerfed down to a more standard 30. As a consolation prize, they get Gust of Wind as a spell-like 1/day (and learn the spell, if they have slots -- something that's standard for all racial spells for MPMM races).

Of course, it's still at-will flight, so it's still a potent race choice based on that alone.

The armor restriction means that you'll want to be using lightly or unarmored characters as an Aarakocra.

Shadar-Kai
I feel like whoever was doing these changes just overlooked the fact that unlike the Eladrin, the Shadar-Kai's teleport was 1/day, rather than 1/short rest. And then just gave them the same "proficiency/day" treatment they gave the Eladrin.

This means Shadar-Kai are getting a big buff, and they were already one of the stronger races.

A bonus action, nonspell teleport prof/day on an elf chassis would already be enough to be great. Having that bonus action also give resistance to all damage makes it amazing -- easily superior to the Earth Genasi's bonus action.

They also have Necrotic Resistance (one of the best Resistances to get) on all day. On top of all the usual stuff that makes it good to be an elf -- Darkvision, Charm Resistance, +1 skill, Trance, and access to elf-only feats like Elven Accuracy.

As if all that wasn't enough, Trance got buffed (https://tinyurl.com/bdbes24h), giving you extra proficiencies, 4 extra hours to do stuff every day, and the ability to cheese 8 hour spell durations. In addition to having a shorter rest, you're also conscious while resting, making you an excellent watchman.

Harengon
You get to add your Proficiency bonus to initiative rolls -- already a feature comparable to the best bullet point of the Alert feat, once you get a big enough proficiency bonus under your belt.

Now, people generally have a vague sense that initiative is good, but don't have a concrete idea of exactly how much it's worth. So here's how you can think about initiative bonuses when comparing features: Each +1 to initiative is an increase to the % chance that you get an extra turn relative to Team Monster. And an extra turn is better than an Action Surge (after all, you get an Action as part of a turn). So you can kind of think of it as an X% chance of getting that extra turn each combat.

As nice as this feature is though, it wouldn't make the race on its own -- after all, you could always have been a VHuman with the actual Alert feat. Fortunately for the Harengon, they don't stop there!

You get 3 other things: +1 skill, Lucky Footwork, and Rabbit Hop. No Darkvision though!

Rabbit Hop is basically like a less-movement-speed version of the new Orc's bonus action move, except it gets to ignore opportunity attacks, and the movement can be a vertical jump. This is a pretty meaty mobility feature, allowing easy disengages and extra kiting or engagement range... or simply hopping right over troublesome terrain.

Finally, you get Lucky Footwork, an at-will Reaction equivalent to +2-3 to your Dex save. Like a mini-Resilient that eats your Reaction (and of course stacks with Resilient).

Eladrin
Eladrin was an already-great race that got some modest improvements… which leaves it as a great race.

It has all the usual benefits of being an Elf (fey ancestry, newly buffed Trance, Darkvision, being able to use Elven Accuracy, an extra skill, etc), plus an excellent teleportation feature.

Now instead of 1/short rest, you get your teleport proficiency times a day, which I’d say is better overall. It also now can key off of any mental stat, giving it extra synergy with some more builds… though Eladrin remains a solid choice even if you don’t have any mental stats at all (after all, the Spring and Summer options won’t care).

Summer gives you a small amount of action-economy-efficient, auto-hitting AoE damage, while Winter gives you the chance to frighten enemies, offering you more control and defense. Both are good for characters using the teleport primarily to help them engage in melee. Spring on the other hand will help you move allies around the battlefield.


Level 1-4: 4 auto-hitting AoE damage
Level 5-8: 9 auto-hitting AoE damage
Level 9-12: 16 auto-hitting AoE damage
Level 13-16: 25 auto-hitting AoE damage
Level 17-20: 36 auto-hitting AoE damage


The charm is a bit more situational, since they’re only charmed by you and still free to attack your allies, and because damage will break the charm. But in exchange, at least it can target two creatures over Winter’s 1.

Goblin
Fury of the Small does less damage than it used to (at least, if we're assuming you got an average of 2 short rests), but it's still a decent chunk of damage -- basically, a total of proficiency^2 over the course of the adventuring day.

Level 1-4: 4 total damage
Level 5-8: 9 total damage
Level 9-12: 16 total damage
Level 13-16: 25 total damage
Level 17-20: 36 total damage

And you get charm resistance added on from Fey Ancestry!

So I'd say the Goblin is about as strong as it used to be... which is to say, really damn good, particularly for classes that can spare their bonus actions, like Wizard. It basically is getting you some of the biggest benefits of dipping Rogue, without actually dipping Rogue.

Why is this so good for a Wizard? Well, enemies can't Counterspell you if they can't see you. And stealth only applies Advantage to one attack/turn... which is a considerably larger DPR buff to someone like an Evoker throwing a single 4d10+5 Fire Bolt than it is to someone using multiple attacks (in fact, large enough to make it do nearly as much DPR as a vanilla Agonizing Eldritch Blast). And you can casually disengage from pesky melee combat or the like. And Fury of the Small can buff spell damage.

Goblin isn't great for everyone though. Its flagship ability is entirely redundant for Rogues, and builds that rely heavily on their bonus actions won't benefit as much from throwing a Goblin's Cunnning-Action-like feature into the mix.

Hobgoblin
This one is more of a reimagining than a simple tweak!

Fortune from the Many is a very strong feature. Like, you know how people sometimes say Advantage is worth very roughly as much as a +3 on the roll, and how the Lucky feat is good? Well this gives a +3 on a roll, not 3 times a day but Proficiency times a day. And unlike Lucky, it's a fixed bonus... if you fell 2 short of a roll, you know this will make the difference, and thus it's a lot harder to be "wasted" than Lucky.

As if that wasn't a good enough bonus to your saves already, you also get charm resistance from Fey Ancestry.

And I haven't even talked about Fey Gift yet. This gives you the ability to use a buffed up version of the Help action as a bonus action, proficiency times a day. In addition to basically giving you the benefit of the Mastermind Rogue's feature (albeit with limited uses), you also get to choose from a variety of options.

Option 1) Temp HP! This'll give 1d6+PB temp HP to whoever you helped. If you used all your Fey Gifts this way, it'd work out to...
Level 3-4: 11 HP
Level 5-8: 19.5 HP
Level 9-12: 30 HP
Level 13-16: 42.5 HP
Level 17-20: 57 HP

Wow, that's a lot of temp HP to be tossing around over the course of the day racial feature... especially considering how good the Hobgoblin's other stuff already is.

Option 2) This one boosts your ally's movement speed by 10 feet, which may not seem like a lot... but when it makes the difference between getting into range and not, you'll realize just how nice it is to have this on call.

Option 3) Spite: If the person you help hits with an attack (any attack, not just the one you helped), the target gets Disadvantage on one attack. Could be worth more than the temp HP depending on the situation.

Any of these would be nice on their own, but getting them all as tactical options makes this a powerhouse race.

Kenku
The Kenku have an actual non-ribbon feature now! It lets them get Advantage on a skill check they have proficiency in, PB time/day, basically turning them into a skill monkey race. Besides that, the Kenku are bringing 2 skills, Advantage on forgeries, and their vocal mimicry. No Darkvision or defensive features or anything, though.

The thing is, unlike something like Fortune From the Many (Hobgoblin) or Knowledge from a Past Life (Reborn from Van Richten's Guide), you've gotta use the Advantage before seeing the skill check, which makes it very possible to waste it on checks that succeed on the first roll. Also unlike those things, it won't stack if you have Advantage from some other source.

At the very least, Kenku are a big step up from what they used to be. They just have stiff competition these days.

Centaur
Unlike Fey Ancestry, actually being a Fey is a mixed blessing. Oh sure, Hold Person won’t work on you… but the big bad could cast Forbiddance over the whole damn dungeon. Or throw up a Protection from Evil and Good. Or turn you. Or use Planar Binding on you. Yeah. (The Forbiddance one came up in a game just recently! We stuck our Fey character in a Bag of Holding!)

So what else do we have? A +10 base movement speed, a bonus action unarmed attack (but only at the end of a straight 30 foot move, so you’ll get it maybe once a combat), a skill, and the ability to attack with your feet (which can be helpful for a grappler with a shield, as can the extra speed). Note a lack of Darkvision, and trouble with climbing.

When it comes to sheer mobility I’d probably rather have a Tabaxi (who has Darkvision, and is great at climbing, and also has natural weapons just like the Centaur does – including probably on their feet).

For some few builds, the bonus action attack might make a deciding difference, if there’s room in the build for it. But it won’t work well for Barbarians (who generally want their opening bonus action to be Rage), or anyone using PAM, or Rogues, and it won’t benefit from stuff like the Dueling fighting style or Divine Smite or the like.

Another few things to consider…
- +10 base movement speed means that even if you dump Strength, you’ll move at normal speed in heavy armor (and faster than a dwarf). On the other hand, dumping Strength doesn’t really suit a Centaur since it means you’re getting nothing out of their bonus action attack.
- You are probably “anatomically appropriate for riding” by small creatures, and mounted combat rules are, uhm, kind of insane (https://tinyurl.com/49rpwt8v). Though I haven’t rated this – or any – race on the assumption that you’d be abusing the mess that is mounted combat rules.

Goliath
At first glance, the Goliath doesn't look like it changed that much. It just got the 1/short rest to PB/day change and called it a day. But I'd say this makes a big difference for the Goliath. It not only means they're likely to get more mitigation/day, but also that they can use their mitigation back to back to back as needed.

You get Cold Resistance, 1 skill and Powerful Build. No Darkvision, though.

Their main ability is being able to use a Reaction to reduce an attack’s damage by 1d12+Con, now buffed to Proficiency times a day.

We can count about how much HP this is worth. Assuming a 16 Constitution, it’d be (on average)…
Level 1-4: 19 HP with 16 Con (23 with 20 Con)
Level 5-8: 28.5 HP (34.5)
Level 9-12: 38 HP (46)
Level 13-16: 47.5 HP (57.5)
Level 17-20: 57 HP (69)

Compare this to the likes of, say, the Hill Dwarf granting 20 max HP at level 20, and it reveals just how much mitigation this really is, especially at low levels when 19 HP is very possibly more than you have.

Also, unlike a Hill Dwarf or Shifter’s extra HP, this is actually reducing damage, and thus reducing Concentration saves, extending Armor of Agathys, and the like. Also unlike the Shifter or Hobgoblin, this ain't temp HP: It'll stack with that Glamour Bard or Twilight Cleric or Inspiring Leader or Armor of Agathys or the like.

And here's the thing about that proficiency/day change: You can use your reactions back to back to back. While a Shifter is basically transforming once per combat, a Goliath can easily use multiple damage-reducing reactions in a single fight, getting more burst durability.

This could work well on, say, a Cleric (as many Clerics don't have great Reactions, but love their bonus actions).

Fire Genasi
The old version of Fire Genasi was basically a worse tiefling.

Sadly, the new version hasn’t come far. It’s basically a Tiefling with a markedly worse spell list. Like, seriously, Flame Blade? Flame Blade? We waited so long for Fire Genasi buffs and this is what we get? Who thought this was okay right next to the goblinoids and the like? When I read this I was half-expecting to see the Air Genasi get Witch Bolt. Bloody hells.

They even lost a bit of their flavor. Now they see only in shades of grey, rather than shades of red. It really feels like they didn’t put any thought or care into this one. Which is a damn shame, because I know a lot of people were eager to see genasi finally get some love.

Water Genasi
This one’s like a Tiefling with a worse spell list and a worse Resistance (Acid), with swimming tacked on. They arguably made the spell list even worse than it used to be, because at least Shape Water was kinda interesting, and Create or Destroy Water used to be a 2nd level slot version (now it's 1st).

Water Breathing I generally see as a ribbon, since any party that cares probably got it as a ritual at 5th level (and that ritual lasts 24 hours), which means that it only matters in the niche case of getting dispelled and not having enough time to deal with that (and 5e characters can hold their breath a very generous time).

A swim speed is a little harder to grab, but there’s still things like, say, an Uncommon magic item that gets you a better swim speed, attunement-free (like a Cloak of the Manta Ray or Ring of Swimming). So you basically have to be in a campaign where a swim speed is a big enough deal to outshine all the time other races are outshining you on land, and you can’t find any options that just would have given you a swim speed anyways (and things like Ghosts of Saltmarsh are perfectly happy to toss those items at you).

Water Walk is quite situational – especially since you're already aquatic. Acid Splash is an unremarkable cantrip. Create or Destroy Water might actually be the most useful thing on their list, which… isn’t inspiring.

Create or Destroy Water’s main use is to keep it in your back pocket as a sort of “dispel fire or fog” spell. It also can be useful for providing fresh water in the middle of a salty ocean, or an arid desert. So that could be nice... but very situationally.

Overall I'd say it's better than the Fire Genasi, though, since at least I can hypothetically think of situations where it might be useful, unlike that tire fire.

Air Genasi
Again this is rather tiefling-like, but it makes out slightly better than Fire and Water.

Lightning is a markedly worse Resistance than Fire (at least, on average), but at least the spell list doesn't have Flame Blade on it. Feather Fall is a “seat belt” spell to have ready just in case. Levitate is just okay – more useful than the original Air Genasi since it can use a main casting stat for its DC now. Shocking Grasp is a pretty situational cantrip.

Overall I'd rather have some of the Tiefling spell lists. But hey, at least they get a 35 foot base movement speed instead of 30.

They also get their ability to hold their breath indefinitely, but I'm not impressed by this feature. While this can deal with some situations that water breathing can't (like, say, the noxious fumes of a wildfire), it's still pretty situational since 3-4 minutes (the time most characters can hold their breath) is already more time than it'll take for most encounters to be resolved, and longer-term things often need you to solve the breathing problem for the party, not just yourself.

Aside from Feather Fall, their racial spellcasting is stat-dependent, so you'll want to use this on a casting class.

Earth Genasi
The only genasi that appears to have gotten a significant buff is the one that perhaps needed it least (though really, all genasi needed it).

Earth Walk now works on most difficult terrain, instead of just that made of earth or stone. Passively ignoring difficult terrain is a Nice Thing, both in general and in terms of combo potential (since you can walk through difficult terrain created by yourself or party members, too).

Additionally, it gets Pass Without Trace added to your spell list, which is a pretty darned good spell – the sort of thing you can build a character or a party around.

Finally, you get a bonus action version of Blade Ward, Proficiency/day. This may not be as good as a Shadar-Kai’s bonus action, but it’s still quite good. You get enough uses to throw this on for a few rounds of combat and pretend you're Raging. However, since it is a bonus action spell, even though it's a cantrip, you can't cast a leveled spell in the same turn.

Altogether, this looks like a genasi people might actually want to play mechanically. Why didn’t the others get this sort of treatment?

Githyanki
This is another Tiefling-like race (except for the fact that, of course, Tieflings themselves haven’t got the “choose your casting stat, use your racial spells with spell slots” update yet)

Psychic Resistance is one of the better kinds to get, comparable to Fire in terms of how many monsters use it. And the spell list is decent, mostly because of Misty Step – though this feature pales in comparison to the non-spell teleports usable Proficiency times a day. The cantrip is also worth noting: Since the Mage Hand is invisible and componentless, it’s gonna be really hard to ever keep you tied up, among other things.

You also get a bonus skill and tool proficiency, and can just change what that proficiency is each long rest -- a versatility that I find only marginally better than just getting a single skill proficiency. It looks like you get this basically instead of a Tiefling’s Darkvision.

Githzerai
This is like the Githyanki, but changes out the spell list and skill proficiency.

In place of the bonus skill, we get what is basically Fey Ancestry and halfling Bravery rolled into one… which is to say, you get Advantage on an awful lot of Wisdom saves. Which is pretty neat. And you get the same Psychic Resistance as the Githyanki. That's a good-sized collection of resistances.

The big feature that sets this apart, though, is the spell list. You get the same cool invisible componentless Mage Hand as the Githyanki, but you also get a componentless Detect Thoughts (which I’d say has some significant implications over regular Detect Thoughts) and Shield on your spell list. Not just a free slot for it, but also the ability to cast it with your slots. For the likes of a Cleric or Bard, that’s a big deal!

So yeah. A good Resistance, Advantage on a large percentage of mental saves, two solid spells with notable boosts from being componentless, and one game-changer spell added to your spell list (Shield). I’d say that’s enough to secure a spot as a strong race choice.

Clerics will love this race. Advantage on an already-good Wisdom save will make them near-immune to charms and fear, while Shield is a significant addition to their spell list.

Fairy
It flies, and that’s already enough to make it a high tier race. The armor restriction means it will be best suited to Dex-based martials or lightly/unarmored casters.

The spellcasting is a cherry on top. For a non-caster that isn’t competing for Concentration, Enlarge/Reduce is an attractive pre-cast buff – especially for those with many attacks, like a Fighter. Faerie Fire is a little more situational, especially if you don’t have Int/Wis/Cha boosting the DC, but is a useful tool to have in your toolbox nonetheless. Druidcraft is a handy cantrip, too, that isn't dependent on your stats. Overall, I'd rate its spell-likes as superior to the Aarakocra.

Also, you’re a Fey. Unlike Fey Ancestry, actually being a Fey is a mixed blessing. Oh sure, Hold Person won’t work on you… but the big bad could cast Forbiddance over the whole damn dungeon. Or throw up a Protection from Evil and Good. Or turn you. Or use Planar Binding on you. Yeah. (The Forbiddance one came up in a game just recently! We stuck our Fey character in a Bag of Holding!) So… yeah. Be careful with that.

Firbolg
The updates are pretty much what you’d expect – their racial casting now allows the spells to be used with slots (just like all the other MPMM races), and their bonus action Invisibility got upgraded to prof uses/day.

The Invisibility can be used to do some rather Goblin-like tricks, which makes this a pretty solid race. It also means the kind of classes that liked Goblin will also like Firbolg.

Being briefly invisible will stop people from being able to Counterspell you, opportunity attack you, or the like. And will give you Advantage on 1 attack roll (best for characters who make one big attack instead of multiple little attacks).

Unlike a Goblin, though, you can’t just spam it willy-nilly, and being Invisible isn’t the same thing as being Hidden. And their spell-likes and beast speech is no match for Fury of the Small, Fey Ancestry, and Darkvision (yep, Firbolgs don’t get that).

I'm tempted to bump this to blue just because of the "avoiding counterspells" thing, though...

Lizardfolk
The Natural Armor is basically a free Mage Armor, and won’t matter for Strength-based characters. Whereas the Hungry Jaws are a strength-based attack.

The Hungry Jaws are usable more often than the Volo’s version. If the Jaws hit, they will generate the following amounts of temp HP over the course of an adventuring day:
Level 1-4: 4 HP
Level 5-8: 9 HP
Level 9-12: 16 HP
Level 13-16: 25 HP
Level 17-20: 36 HP

Of course, miss chances are a thing. For example, if you have 20 Strength and are attacking AC19, that level 17-20 figure goes down to 23.4. They’re also temp HP, so won’t stack with a lot of things. You shouldn’t expect it to be providing as much of a defensive benefit as a Shifter or Goliath. And if you want the bonus action attack? Well, Longtooth Shifters do that too.

Getting a bonus action attack is nice, but it’s only ever going to be a nonmagical attack that doesn’t benefit from Dueling or the like, so I wouldn’t expect it to be adding a ton of damage. You can’t even smite with it as a Paladin, since it counts as an unarmed strike now.

The rest is little ribbons and extras. Hold Breath is only a slight improvement given the length of time 5e characters can already hold their breaths, swim speeds are as situational as usual, and you get 2 skill proficiencies. Their ability to craft things that people without special racial abilities could conceivably already craft has been removed – no loss there.

So… yeah. I don’t really see an optimizer leaping to take this as a Dex-build just for the Natural Armor. Or leaping to take it as a Str-build just for the Hungry Jaws.

Shifters exist and do basically the same schtick better, unless you really care about getting a swim speed.

Orc
Okay. In the past, I’ve said that Orc was basically a wannabe Tabaxi. How does it compete now?

Well, its bonus action move is no longer at-will, but it can move in any direction, and “profiency” is a goodly number of uses. Moreover, it also gives you PB temporary hit points when you use it!

Or in other words, over the course of a day...
Level 1-4: 4 HP
Level 5-8: 9 hp
Level 9-12: 16 hp
Level 13-16: 25 hp
Level 17-20: 36 hp

It also gave up its 2 skill proficiencies (from the Eberron version), but in exchange gets Relentless Endurance from the Half-Orc.

This makes it less directly comparable to the Tabaxi (who have 2 skills). Sure, their mobility might not be quite as good as a Tabaxi, and they might have less skills, but Tabaxi don’t have any extra durability features.

So how good is Relentless Endurance? Well, it won’t block insta-death effects like Death Ward does. It’ll only really give you one extra hit against more conventional offense. Though that’s still pretty neat! Like, I’d rate that at 5-30 hp or so, potentially more in some cases. Plus, you can also use it in cases like, say, Overchanneling as an Evoker.

Of course, a Tabaxi’s mobility is still better, especially if your build demands your bonus action. But if it doesn’t? Well, then orc offers some beef with your mobility. It's main competitor for that niche might well be the Shadar-Kai, sittin' over there with its bonus-action teleport and damage resistance. Which is probably better. But still, this is good stuff, and a Shadar-Kai can't use its mobility to drag people further through a bed of Spike Growth.

In short, the full orc is finally getting some time to shine. Good stuff.

Tabaxi
The Tabaxi is the king of raw movement speed. No action economy requirement here, you just double everything – which means it compounds with other movement speed bonuses, too! And all you have to do to get the ability back is NOT move for a turn.

They also have a decent selection of lesser extras, like +2 skill proficiencies, a climb speed, Darkvision, and natural weapons (which probably also include their feet, for those of you who have your hands full with a shield and grappling).

Tabaxi are a good choice for
– Melee characters who very much want to make sure they can get into melee range.
– Ranged characters who want to get out of dodge and climb up the walls.
– Grapplers who want to drag enemies further.

What the Tabaxi doesn’t offer is extra durability tools – if you want that AND mobility, consider the Shadar-Kai, Orc, Eladrin, etc. It also won’t offer you flight or teleportation or free disengages or the like.

Tortle
Tortle’s main offering is its no-hassle 17 AC. That’s equivalent to a 14 Dex and Half-Plate, or an 18 Dex and Mage Armor… but without the respective investments. Something an unarmored caster is sure to appreciate. Alternatively, you could see it as removing the penalty to stealth checks (and saving 750gp) for builds that would otherwise wear Half-Plate.

https://c.tenor.com/MjZlvC4KFncAAAAC/turtle-tmnt.gif
Pictured: Tortles enjoying the fact that unlike that Mountain Dwarf in half-plate, they’re not going to be taking any penalty to stealth checks.

However it’s not doing a whole lot else. Shell Defense is only situationally better than just taking the Dodge Action. Beyond that it's just a skill proficiency and mostly-negligible ribbons. No Darkvision or resistances or the like.

Anyways, you're looking at +2 AC relative to, say, a 14-Dex Mage Armored Wizard. And while that's nice (not just for the AC, but saving a 1st level slot, too), so are other durability races. Said Wizard could be a Beasthide Shifter getting +1 AC and dozens of temp HP, and arguably better ribbons. Or a Hobgoblin doing... all that hobgoblin stuff. Or take a 1 level dip to get armor and a shield. You get the idea.

Also, unlike, say, a Mountain Dwarf, you're never going to be putting on magic armor. Or be able to take a half-feat that gives you a shield, either.

I guess I could also mention that a Tortle can redirect that 14 Dex to other stats, but... well, investing in Dex is not a bad thing.

Triton
Of the various races overcharged for their access to water breathing and swimming speed, Triton is at least a bit nicer than Water Genasi, but only just. A second-string Resistance, modest spell-like abilities, Darkvision, and a little "communicate simple ideas to sea creatures" ribbon are all they get (though oddly enough, their version is a bit better than the Sea Elf version, which is limited only to Beasts, while theirs can communicate with elementals and monstrosities, too).

They traded out Wall of Water for Water Walk, and I for one am not impressed. I mean, how often do I need to cast Water Walk, especially if I'm already aquatic? It would have been nice to give them some more out-of-water utility so they felt less situational.

Yuan-Ti
OG Yuan-Ti were infamously powerful, so it’s unsurprising to see them receiving some nerfs. Doubly so now that they aren't locked into a Cha/Int statline.

Their poison immunity got downgraded to poison resistance.
Their magic resistance got downgraded to only applying to spells, instead of “spells and other magical effects.” So a lot more monster abilities are gonna pass right through it.

The only improvement is the quality of life changes to racial spellcasting. Their spell list is just okay. Poison Spray isn’t something I’d spend a cantrip slot on, but it’s certainly not bad to have as a freebie option. It is, after all, another save you can target, with a d12 damage die. The ability to talk to snakes is mostly a ribbon. And Suggestion is a solid spell – albeit one that does care about your save DC, and also varies a lot based on DM arbitration.

I’d say that the combination of magic and poison resistance remains a solid defensive investment on its own. And unlike Satyrs, they’ve got Darkvision.

Still good, but nerfed enough that your DM might actually let you play one now.

Satyr
Like the Yuan-Ti, the magic resistance got downgraded to only apply to spells, instead of “spells and other magical effects.”

Compared to the Yuan-Ti, they swap out their poison resistance, Darkvision, and spellcasting for a little jump boost, hands-free natural weapons, 2 skill proficiencies, and a +5 foot movement speed.

Still good, but nerfed enough that your DM might actually let you play one now.

Duergar
Unlike a usual dwarf, this has a 30 foot movement speed, but gets slowed normally by plate armor.

It also has...
Double-range Darkvision, with no Sunlight Sensitivity anymore
Advantage vs Charms (like Fey Ancestry) and Stunning – both really troublesome effects that you don't wanna get hit by. In addition to the Dwarf’s normal Poison Resistance, this is an unusually high amount of useful resistances.
Racial spellcasting. The Enlarge/Reduce is a self-only version, so it’s mostly notable for martial characters as a pre-cast. Invisibility works for pretty much anyone. No big game-changer spells, though.

But it actually loses the dwarf’s tool proficiencies and Stonecunning, which you may or may not care about.

Deep Gnome
Hey look, they buffed gnome movement speed! But only for Deep Gnomes (and all the other Small races in MPMM). Why haven’t the PHB classes gotten updates again? I dunno.

The spells are lovely, Concentration-free utility options for certain types of campaigns – Disguise Self and component-free Nondetection. Combine that with the double-range Darkvision and Advantage on Stealth checks PB/day and they’ve got one of the best racial kits for sneaky shenanigans. They round out the kit with Gnomish Magic Resistance, giving them Advantage on mental saves vs spells (but, unlike OG gnomes, not against other magical effects).

Nondetection is a whopping 3rd-level spell that usually has a costly component. It lasts a full 8 hours (so, basically a whole adventuring day), and -- here's the important part -- counters an awful lot of the things that counter Disguise Self or hiding (not to mention other abilities a character might pick up, like invisibility or the like). More than you might think. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/172662/can-a-creature-under-the-effect-of-nondetection-be-detected-by-the-detect-magic) Even stuff like True Seeing, which would detect Changelings. (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/786625163831848960?lang=en) As such, the various parts of this kit complement each other extremely well.

So when it comes to intrigue and infiltration, Deep Gnomes are one of the best choices around. And unlike Changelings, they're still getting actual combat features.

As a side note, they still have access to the Svirfneblin Magic feat, which is mostly relevant for giving Abjurers an endlessly regenerating ward. However, this isn't quite as big a deal as it used to be, since Abjurers can do this with the Eldritch Adept feat these days, too.

Aasimar
https://64.media.tumblr.com/d7473608209f7338b97df59a09e18c53/bfc83d47d23cd471-da/s500x750/9b8c592654f1ec63bfeaf01faa09c2cdc08498fb.jpg
Radiant Consumption can be a terrifying thing to behold... and a risky weapon to wield.

Okay. So their transformation now only does proficiency damage instead of level damage, and it’s still only 1/day. On the other hand, they get to use it as a Bonus Action, so it’s something you don’t need to pre-cast anymore, and is thus a much more reliable bonus.

You can pick one of three different transformations:
Oddly, Necrotic Shroud is still locked to Charisma. But notably, it no longer friendly-fires! It's great for folks like Conquest Paladins or casters using Summon Shadowspawn -- you know, Cha-based people who can capitalize on the fear. Note the range is rather short, so be comfy up close. Also note that it has a worse damage type than the other two.

Radiant Consumption now does Proficiency damage in an AoE (not a huge change from its original level/2), and still friendly-fires you. Be wary: This won’t turn off if you go unconscious, it CAN finish you off at 0 hp. It’s risky, but it’s also rewarding – that damage is auto-hitting AoE damage.

Radiant Soul can now use its flight more reactively, thanks to being a bonus action! It's an excellent choice for those who want to fly on occasion, but want considerably more non-flying features than Fairy or Aarakocra will offer.

This is basically only going to last for 1 combat. If you get say, 3 rounds of action out of it (3 rounds in which you hit with at least one thing, anyways), you can expect...
Level 1-4: 6 damage (+6 auto-hitting AoE damage if you picked Radiant Consumption... but it hurts you for 3 damage)
Level 5-8: 9 damage (if RC: also+9 AoE if RC, 3 self damage)
Level 9-12: 12 damage (if RC: also +12 AoE, 6 self damage)
Level 13-16: 15 damage (if RC: also +15 AoE, 6 self damage)
Level 17-20: 18 damage (if RC: also +18 AoE, 9 self damage)

Healing Hands also got changed. Instead of healing 1HP/level 1/day, it now heals 1d4xproficiency 1/day.

So…
Level 1-4: 5 HP
Level 5-8: 7.5 HP
Level 9-12: 10 HP
Level 13-16: 12.5 HP
Level 17-20: 15 HP

Overall a nerf to Healing Hands. But still a decent feature, not too far off from the original 1 HP/level.

You also get the Light cantrip (oddly, it’s still Charisma locked unlike all the other racial spells in MPMM), not one but two handy Resistances (both of which are relatively hard to get from other sources), and Darkvision.

So overall I think they came out alright. Yes, their Healing Hands got slightly weaker and their transformation isn’t as good if you get a pre-cast, but not needing to pre-cast it is a significant benefit, as well as a major quality of life improvement.

Defensively, they’ve got 2 Resistances (including the ever-valuable Necrotic), a heal that’s worth almost as much HP as the Hill Dwarf’s +1hp/level, and potentially help from their transformation (such as using Necrotic Shroud for CC, or Radiant Soul for wings). Offensively, they’ve got their extra damage 1/day. Overall, a solid mix of benefits.

Shifters
+1 skill, Darkvision, and a bonus action transformation proficiency/day.

The transformation is worth the following amount of temp HP/day:
Level 1-4: 8 HP
Level 5-8: 18 HP
Level 9-12: 32 HP
Level 13-16: 50 HP
Level 17-20: 72 HP

As you can see, it’s quite a lot before we even talk about the additional features for the specific transformation types. This is a durability race, great for any character that doesn’t have too much pressure on their bonus actions or temp HP already (since temp hp don’t stack).

So what about the specific types of Shifters?

Beasthide gets +1 AC and an extra 1d6 temp hp per transformation (on top of what you already get), doubling down on this race’s already considerable durability.

Now it looks like…
Level 1-4: 15 HP +1 AC
Level 5-8: 28.5 HP +1 AC
Level 9-12: 46 HP +1 AC
Level 13-16: 67.5 HP +1 AC
Level 17-20: 93 HP +1 AC

That’s a bloody ton of extra durability. You want a tank race, here you are. This might just be my default go-to Shifter.

Unlike the original version, Longtooth can now use its bonus action attack on the turn you shift, a meaningful improvement. This basically gives you a bonus action attack without having to take a feat or use up a hand. On the other hand, it’s a nonmagical piercing unarmed strike. That means you can’t smite with it, you can’t apply Dueling to it, you can’t sneak attack with it, a lot of enemies resist it, etc.

Even so, you didn’t need to be getting a ton of extra offense for Shifter to be worth it, as it already has that solid base of HP.

Another thing worth noting is that unlike an awful lot of bonus action action attacks, Longtooth’s doesn’t require you to take the Attack action first. You can do things like use your action to cast a spell (or any other action), then attack, no problem.

Swiftstride gets a +10 foot base movement speed, putting you on par with a Centaur. Even if it’s not at will, you get to use it an awful lot. In addition, you get another 10 foot movement Reaction that doesn’t trigger OAs, which offers a rare opportunity to move off-turn, allowing you to disengage from foes, move out of hazards, or whatever. Note that even allies can trigger this.

As far as mobile durability races go, this is fighting with Orc and Satyr, and I’d say it puts up a heckuva fight with its fat stack of temp HP.

Wildhunt gets you Advantage on Wisdom checks while shifted, and enemies can’t get Advantage against you unless you’re incapacitated. Period.

This is will actually cancel out things like Reckless Attack. Sure, the shifting bonus action competes with the Rage one, but it’s still a good option on round 2+... or in combats where you’re not raging at all, just using Reckless – especially for those of you who merely dipped Barbarian.

You can also do things like, say, close your eyes to avoid gaze attacks, and grant your enemies no advantage in the process. Or take better advantage of fog, darkness, and other vision blockers (similar to Alert).

Minotaur
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/69/a0/df/69a0dfed34d83f2f7a6f86f57b7d32e3.jpg

Minotaurs are pretty bare-bones -- no Darkvision, no skill proficiencies, no resistances, not even Powerful Build! Look how skinny that minotaur is!

Goring Rush is kind of like a nerfed version of the Charger feat -- and the Charger feat ain't good. At best, this is a small consolation prize for a melee character getting stuck out of range. After all, there's not a whole lot you can do with this extra attack... it can't smite, it can't sneak attack, it can't benefit from the Dueling fighting style, it doesn't overcome nonmagical resistance, etc. Ideally, I never want to even get into a situation where I'd use Goring Rush, and even if I end up in one, it's usually not making much of a difference.

Labyrinthine Recall is a pretty modest and situational ribbon.

So it comes down to Hammering Horns, pretty much their one meaningful ability. This lets you shove someone 10 feet as a bonus action, which could be nice for comboing with hazard-using allies. However, it allows a Str save (worse than using a contested check like a normal shove), can't target Huge+ enemies (unless you get Enlarged or something), and requires you to use it after you make and hit with an Attack action.

At this point, given how light the rest of their other features are, I'm wondering why I wouldn't just pick a VHuman with Shield Master or PAM or something (Fun fact, with PAM you can shove->attack->attack!).

In order to get decent mileage out of Hammering Horns, you need to be a Strength-based character with little bonus action competition in a party that frequently uses hazards. Which ultimately means that the Minotaur is a fairly narrow race... and yet it doesn't stand out even within its narrow domain.

Changeling
Changelings have basically nothing in the way of combat features. It’s just 2 skills, Shapechanger, and that’s it. Not even Darkvision or anything.

Thankfully, their noncombat feature is a unique one. At-will, they can change their appearance in a way that is a fair bit harder to see through than the likes of Disguise Self or Alter Self. And they get voice mimicry. The fact that this is resilient to physical investigation gives you a much better chance of actually impersonating someone long-term, living among their family, etc. That's pretty cool.

Still… it’s not like there aren’t races that have cool noncombat features and cool combat features. The pre-WotC draft of Changelings actually had this – they could use their shapechanging to get some minor combat benefits. That would have been super cool! Yet this version has none of that.

You can't even do much in the way of creative deceptions or flavorful flairs mid-combat (like changing your face to various others that an opponent knows in the middle of a duel -- practically an entire trope), since they made the regrettable decision to make the shapechanging take an entire Action, solidly relegating it to the realm of pre-casting. At least you can start combat disguised as an enemy, or as one of the other PCs (so that they don't know who has what abilities).

Sea Elf
Take an elf and put Swimming and Water Breathing in the slot where Shadar-Kai are getting their Resistance Teleport prof/day and Necrotic Resistance.

Yeah... not the best trade, I'd say. Anyways, compared to a Triton, we don't have any racial spells, but we get an arguably better Resistance (Charm Resistance), a skill, Trance (which got buffed (https://tinyurl.com/bdbes24h)), and the ability to take Elven Accuracy. I'd take that trade on a number of builds... at least, if I wanted swimming badly enough.

LudicSavant
2022-02-21, 06:36 AM
Evaluating Common Features

In terms of how often damage types statistically appear across printed monsters from all WotC sources, Fire, Necrotic, Psychic, and Poison are the most common, with the 5th place option being way behind.

As such, if I didn’t know anything else about the campaign, I’d rate those Resistances higher than others. Of course, this estimation would change if, say, I knew beforehand we were going to the arctic to fight yetis and frost salamanders.

Another consideration is how easily you can get a Resistance from other sources.
- Resistance to Fire is commonly gotten from Absorb Elements. Same goes for Cold, Acid, Lightning, and Thunder.
- Resistance to Poison can come from a non-Concentration 2nd level buff (Protection from Poison), and Immunity can come from Heroes' Feast (which is a really good partywide, all-day spell... if you have the gold to burn). Antitoxins are 50gp each in the PHB. And of course, all Monks are immune by level 10.
- Resistance to Psychic can be gotten from Intellect Fortress (which is a buff that can be upcast to be partywide, and helps with saves, but takes Concentration), while long lasting immunity can be gotten from Mind Blank.
- Necrotic and Radiant Resistance are relatively hard to come by.

It’s also worth noting that racial Poison resistance generally gives you two things in one: Resistance to poison damage, and resistance to the poison condition.

One final note: Though Cold damage doesn't show up on as many monsters, I'd say that some of the cases it shows up are pretty notable... such as the generic CR6 Mage in the Monster Manual hitting hard with a Cone of Cold.



Many races give you resistance to charms (such as from Fey Ancestry), fear (such as from halfling bravery), poison (the condition, not just the damage), and spells (whether it’s Yuan-Ti, Satyrs, or Gnomes in general).

Notably, these things give you Advantage on the save, and the thing about Advantage is that its benefit isn’t quite linear. If you have a -1 to your Wis save, and you get Advantage on the save, your chance to hit a DC19 barely changes. By contrast if you have a better Wisdom save, and you get Advantage, then you’ll get a much bigger benefit… or in some cases, even become nearly immune to that type of effect.

This mathematical principle should be taken into account when considering the synergy of condition resistances with your build! Having fey ancestry doesn't mean you should be dumping your Wisdom!

That established, let's talk about the different types of features.

Magic Resistance has gotten some nerfs in MPMM, now applying only to “spells” instead of “spells and other magical effects.” Same goes for gnome resistance. As such, it won’t cover a bunch of saves from monster abilities that it used to (including a lot of charms, fears, and poisons).

Charm Resistance I would generally rate a lot higher than Fear Resistance. They’re both quite common (with everything from Hypnotic Pattern to Dominate Person to harpy songs and so much more counting as “charms”), but charms tend to be more crippling effects. You don’t need to experience a scenario like “your character gets dominated and blows all their nova resources on an ally” many times for it to make a big difference.

Fear is another common effect. It's more valuable if you rely on attack rolls than if you don't - in which case, you might be able to function just fine while Frightened ("What's that, I get Disadvantage to attack rolls I don't use, and can't move closer to the monster I want to kite? Oh nooooo"). Even if you do rely on attack rolls, though, I'd rather have the charm resistance any day.



Some races actually are Fey.

Unlike Fey Ancestry, actually being a Fey is a mixed blessing. Oh sure, Hold Person won’t work on you… but the big bad could cast Forbiddance over the whole damn dungeon. Or throw up a Protection from Evil and Good. Or turn you. Or use Planar Binding on you. Yeah. (The Forbiddance one came up in a game just recently! We stuck our Fey character in a Bag of Holding!)

And that monster who has Hold Person? Well, it can still target one of your allies just fine. Whereas those other spells are brand new threats.


Natural weapons... are no longer called that. Instead, they're standardized to all do 1d6+Str nonmagical damage, and can be used to make unarmed strikes.

This is mostly just a ribbon, since actually wielding a weapon tends to be superior. If your natural weapon is horns, fangs, or feet, then there is one thing to be said about them: You can use them while grappling and wielding a shield!

Even in such cases, I wouldn't rely on them too much, as they often won't mesh with features. For example, you can't use them with Divine Smite (as clarified in the official Sage Advice Compendium), can't use them with Dueling, will have a harder time overcoming nonmagical attack resistance, etc.

So yeah. Mostly just a ribbon that has little impact on the power level of a race.


Water breathing is very easy to come by, since it's a ritual that lasts 24 hours and affects the entire party... meaning that if you're actually in an aquatic game (or often even if you're not), it's the sort of thing your local spellcaster might be doing every day as part of their morning routine. Even if you get dispelled, 5e characters can hold their breath for 3-4 minutes, so you'll have dozens of rounds to deal with the problem.

A few races (Tortles, Air Genasi, and Lizardfolk) get the ability to hold their breath longer, and while this can deal with some situations that water breathing can't (like, say, the noxious fumes of a wildfire), it's still pretty situational since 3-4 minutes is already more time than it'll take for most encounters to be resolved, and longer-term things often need you to solve the breathing problem for the party, not just yourself.

Swimming is a bit harder to come by (and IMHO more valuable) than Water Breathing. You could get it for 1 hour from Alter Self, but that takes Concentration. You could also use Freedom of Movement, which doesn't take Concentration but is a 4th level slot.

However, multiple merely Uncommon, attunement-free magic items will hand it to you, like a Cloak of the Manta Ray (60 ft swimming speed + water breathing), Ring of Swimming (40ft swim speed), Mariner's Armor, or Gloves of Swimming and Climbing. And that's just stuff in the DMG (all of which is, again, Uncommon and attunement-free). It's also stuff that aquatic-themed adventures like Ghosts of Saltmarsh are perfectly happy to throw at the players.

Which is to say, even if you're in a seafaring campaign, a swimming speed might not be quite as valuable as expected, particularly if your race is giving up a lot for it compared to something that will be excelling during all your time out of the water.

LudicSavant
2022-02-21, 06:48 AM
(Reserved)

Rukelnikov
2022-02-21, 08:08 AM
Thx for taking the time to write this. Just skimmed it over, reading the races I was most interested in.

One question though, you are generally somewhat thorough in your explanations of why certain features are good, bad, etc. In the natural attacks I see you notice that they probably won't be that useful cause they can't cut thru magic resistance, but you don't include the possibility of having some of the features that allow nat attacks to cut through it (the kind of minutiae you note in other features), is it because you didn't deem it worth it (because most sources of such features already come with nat attacks incorporated), or is there something in the wording that makes it so it wouldn't work now?

LudicSavant
2022-02-21, 08:13 AM
Thx for taking the time to write this. Just skimmed it over, reading the races I was most interested in.

One question though, you are generally somewhat thorough in your explanations of why certain features are good, bad, etc. In the natural attacks I see you notice that they probably won't be that useful cause they can't cut thru magic resistance, but you don't include the possibility of having some of the features that allow nat attacks to cut through it (the kind of minutiae you note in other features), is it because you didn't deem it worth it (because most sources of such features already come with nat attacks incorporated), or is there something in the wording that makes it so it wouldn't work now?

Even if you happen to have a feature that makes your unarmed attacks bypass nonmagical resistance, they're still largely ribbons as far as I can tell. Especially since the characters that get abilities like that usually already are Monks or Beast Barbarians or something.

If there's some notable case that I'm blanking on, please let me know and I'll make a note of it. :smallsmile:

Rukelnikov
2022-02-21, 08:28 AM
Even if you happen to have a feature that makes your unarmed attacks bypass nonmagical resistance, they're still largely ribbons as far as I can tell. Especially since the characters that get abilities like that usually already are Monks or Beast Barbarians or something.

Yeah, it's what I figured.


If there's some notable case that I'm blanking on, please let me know and I'll make a note of it. :smallsmile:

Well, the first one that comes to mind would be Longtooth Moon Druid, getting a BA nat attack, probably not the best combination though, you already have a heap of HP, so getting something extra from race is probably better, but it should work if the wording reamins as it used to.

Amnestic
2022-02-21, 08:36 AM
Fire Genasi getting Flame Blade as their new thing is honestly embarrassing. There's a bunch of fire spells from the 2nd level spell list to choose from and they gave them literally the worst one? Bizarre.

Rukelnikov
2022-02-21, 08:52 AM
Ok, I just figured one interesting interaction, though it may get you clobbered with the DMG.

Lizardfolk's hungry jaws allow you to do a Bite attack, if you can get a strong Bite attack, like from turning into a T-Rex, you get a bonus action 4d12+Mod attack, seems pretty decent(T-Rex would only be available via Shapechange, and there's much better uses for that, but other shapes should work, Polymorph would overwrite Hungry Jaws). If you turn into a Dire wolf, you get a BA 2d6 + chance to prone, that can be done as low as lvl 2. I haven't checked, but I'd like to think there are decent bite attacks for most CRs?

Gignere
2022-02-21, 09:19 AM
Wonder if the class features that changes your unarmed attacks to be magical will work with racial natural attacks.

The DM can also drop in an insignia of the claw and the players can also cast alter self to overcome nonmagical resistance.

Chaos Jackal
2022-02-21, 09:24 AM
Wonder if the class features that changes your unarmed attacks to be magical will work with racial natural attacks.

The DM can also drop in an insignia of the claw and the players can also cast alter self to overcome nonmagical resistance.

Racial natural weapons in MPMM feature the sentence "which you can use to make unarmed strikes". So any feature allowing unarmed strikes to overcome resistance will work with them.

RogueJK
2022-02-21, 09:32 AM
The charm is a bit more situational, since they’re only charmed by you and still free to attack your allies, and because damage will break the charm. But in exchange, at least it can target two creatures over Winter’s 1.

The Autumn Eladrin's Charm effect is better out of combat than in combat. Handy for social pillar stuff, and it doesn't cause the targets to automatically become hostile afterwards, unlike a number of other Charm effects. It doesn't even explicitly state that the targets know they've been Charmed like some Charm effects do, though that's up to the DM.

Psyren
2022-02-21, 10:58 AM
Good to see a thread going over the positives of this book rather than just complaining :smallsmile:

I'm really happy to hear about the Longtooth Shifter change that lets you shift and attack with the same action - my beast barb is going to love that once I can get it into D&D Beyond. My DM is okay houseruling the Longtooth bite attack to work with Bestial Soul so it counts as magical as well.

stoutstien
2022-02-21, 11:45 AM
It's nice to see more thematic option not leaning on their ability score array. As a general rule I'm not in favor of Prof/long rest as a recovery cycle but on races it works.

Can't wait to play a boogie man grappling bugbear.

TotallyNotEvil
2022-02-21, 02:07 PM
I took a peek at the book and found the races within pretty strong, too.

And I like that! The fact that there are quite a few races where I can think of multiple ways of working off of their main trick is pretty compelling.

One of the things I didn't like is how everyone's grandparents got it on with some faeries at some point, tho.

KnightOfTheFae
2022-02-21, 02:22 PM
Just something I got confused about looking at your review. You said Tortles wouldn't be able to use shields, but the version I'm looking at says explicitly that you can still benefit from shields, just not light, medium, or heavy armor. Am I misreading the book, or did you mean something else about not benefitting from shields?

Chaos Jackal
2022-02-21, 04:24 PM
Just something I got confused about looking at your review. You said Tortles wouldn't be able to use shields, but the version I'm looking at says explicitly that you can still benefit from shields, just not light, medium, or heavy armor. Am I misreading the book, or did you mean something else about not benefitting from shields?

The review is talking about gaining shield proficiency through a half-feat, not about being unable to use shields in general. Tortle aren't proficient with any armor, so they can't take Moderately Armored on their own, unlike, say, mountain dwarves.

tiornys
2022-02-21, 04:27 PM
One of the things I didn't like is how everyone's grandparents got it on with some faeries at some point, tho.
It's rather fitting for fae lore though. There's a lot of different types of fae out there, and many of them are either charming, or charming, or both.

Amechra
2022-02-21, 05:26 PM
Looking over this list from the perspective of a Monk, Shifters look pretty great. I'd say that Lizardfolk is a little better than Longtooth Shifter (mostly for Kensei Archers, who can use Natural Armor to just kinda ignore their Wisdom), but I'd happily use any of them.

Kessel
2022-02-21, 06:13 PM
Thank you for the summary, Ludic. You put a lot into your posts and it's appreciated. I'm itching to try a Harengon Bladesinger now.

Melphizard
2022-02-21, 07:44 PM
One of the things I didn't like is how everyone's grandparents got it on with some faeries at some point, tho.

Fey work in mysterious ways so you'd better bet that somehow the entire bloodline of goblinoids owe some Archfey a favor. I think it's also just a general ancestry thing that traces back to the race's existence.

KyleG
2022-02-21, 07:51 PM
I'm not a fan of spells being a racial feature. Spell effects add abilities sure but knowing spells to cast i hate. I really was hoping for the genasi to get something different.
I'm a fan of proficiency times per day as it makes racial features feel more natural. The aasimar seem to have bucked this trend thou.

LudicSavant
2022-02-21, 08:43 PM
It's nice to see more thematic option not leaning on their ability score array. As a general rule I'm not in favor of Prof/long rest as a recovery cycle but on races it works.

Can't wait to play a boogie man grappling bugbear.

Yeah. Bugbears have ascended, joining their goblinoid kin in the pantheon of high tier races, and their liquid ambusher features are quite thematically fitting. They're big winners here.


Thank you for the summary, Ludic. You put a lot into your posts and it's appreciated. I'm itching to try a Harengon Bladesinger now.

You're welcome! And that sounds like fun! :smallsmile:


Just something I got confused about looking at your review. You said Tortles wouldn't be able to use shields, but the version I'm looking at says explicitly that you can still benefit from shields, just not light, medium, or heavy armor. Am I misreading the book, or did you mean something else about not benefitting from shields?


The review is talking about gaining shield proficiency through a half-feat, not about being unable to use shields in general. Tortle aren't proficient with any armor, so they can't take Moderately Armored on their own, unlike, say, mountain dwarves.

Yep, pretty much that.

A Tortle can use a shield, but AFAIK there's no convenient way to grab it for characters that don't already have medium armor access. And if you already have medium armor access, Tortle AC is less valuable.

Gurgeh
2022-02-21, 08:54 PM
This is a really great write-up - thanks for going down into the weeds to figure out the upshots (or not) of every race's changes!

Do you think the revised version of Trance has any interesting applications? Downtime-wise, it seems to be a passport for any revised elf to functionally have every PHB tool proficiency provided they have the latitude to plan out when they're using what.

LudicSavant
2022-02-21, 09:28 PM
This is a really great write-up - thanks for going down into the weeds to figure out the upshots (or not) of every race's changes!

Do you think the revised version of Trance has any interesting applications? Downtime-wise, it seems to be a passport for any revised elf to functionally have every PHB tool proficiency provided they have the latitude to plan out when they're using what.

Oh snap, I should definitely have talked about Trance. Expect me to update the guide with thoughts on it.

Short version is that it makes the Eladrin and Shadar-Kai buffs even better.

Trance does several useful things.
1) It now gives you 2 weapon or tool proficiencies of your choice, and you can switch out said proficiencies every day, and then make fun of the Githyanki.

You can cherrypick the best weapon proficiencies for your build, which actually matters a little bit for some characters like early-level Wizards (who will appreciate a heavy crossbow over a light one), or Monks (who can get 1d10 weapons to use with Dedicated Weapon). Or just pick up stuff like Thieves' Tools or Disguise Kit. Or swap between a new set of crafting tools each night to make stuff in your bonus 4 hours.

2) It lets you complete a Long Rest in 4 hours, which has implications. You know those spells with 8 hour durations? Well, unless I'm missing something, you can now cast them, long rest, and still have them for four hours.

3) It makes it so that you're conscious during long rests. Consciousness is good, because being ambushed while resting is bad. Bonus points if you've got good sensory abilities (such as by being the person in the party with Perception Expertise or what-have-you). Heck, when the rest of your party is sleeping and gets ambushed, you might already be fully rested and wearing your plate armor.

4) You basically get 4 extra hours of downtime to do whatever the heck you want.

tiornys
2022-02-21, 09:34 PM
Oh snap, I should definitely have talked about Trance. Expect me to update the guide with thoughts on it.

Short version is that it makes the Eladrin and Shadar-Kai buffs even better.

Trance does several useful things.
1) It now gives you 2 weapon or tool proficiencies of your choice, and you can switch out said proficiencies every day, and then make fun of the Githyanki.

You can cherrypick the best weapon proficiencies for your build, which actually matters a little bit for some characters like early-level Wizards (who will appreciate a heavy crossbow over a light one), or Monks (who can get 1d10 weapons to use with Dedicated Weapon). Or just pick up stuff like Thieves' Tools or Disguise Kit. Or swap between a new set of crafting tools each night to make stuff in your bonus 4 hours.

2) It lets you complete a Long Rest in 4 hours, which has implications. You know those spells with 8 hour durations? Well, unless I'm missing something, you can now cast them, long rest, and still have them for four hours.

3) It makes it so that you're conscious during long rests. Consciousness is good, because being ambushed while resting is bad. Bonus points if you've got good sensory abilities (such as by being the person in the party with Perception Expertise or what-have-you). Heck, when the rest of your party is sleeping and gets ambushed, you might already be fully rested and wearing your plate armor.

4) You basically get 4 extra hours of downtime to do whatever the heck you want.
Technically #2 is already a thing except better, as RAW you can cast those spells that last for 8 hours right before you finish your long rest and then immediately get back the slots. However, I'd expect a lot less DM pushback against "cast then rest 4 hours" than "restcasting".

#4 is pretty sweet for Tealocking and scroll making among other applications.

Gurgeh
2022-02-21, 09:45 PM
4) You basically get 4 extra hours of downtime to do whatever the heck you want.
I had not properly considered this facet.

1) Take the Chef feat.
2) Begin your Long Rest together with the rest of your party.
3) Once you're done, spend the next four hours to get (5x proficiency bonus) treats.
4) Shove at your friends as soon as they wake up.
5) If anyone baulks at using their bonus action to refresh THP instead of doing something more impactful, launch into a rant that you were up before the break of dawn slaving over a hot stove to keep everybody healthy and they had better appreciate your hard work and also stick to the schedule and remember to eat the older treats first before they go off.
6) Dodge the rulebook that is inevitably thrown your way.

Aalbatr0ss
2022-02-21, 10:42 PM
Hobgoblin

And I haven't even talked about Fey Gift yet. This gives you the ability to use a buffed up version of the Help action as a bonus action, proficiency times a day. In addition to basically giving you the benefit of the Mastermind Rogue's feature (albeit with limited uses), you also get to choose from a variety of options.

Option 1) Temp HP! This'll give 1d6+PB temp HP to whoever you helped. If you used all your Fey Gifts this way, it'd work out to...
Level 3-4: 11 HP
Level 5-8: 19.5 HP
Level 9-12: 30 HP
Level 13-16: 42.5 HP
Level 17-20: 57 HP

Wow, that's a lot of temp HP to be tossing around over the course of the day racial feature... especially considering how good the Hobgoblin's other stuff already is.

Option 2) This one boosts your ally's movement speed by 10 feet, which may not seem like a lot... but when it makes the difference between getting into range and not, you'll realize just how nice it is to have this on call.

Option 3) Spite: If the person you help hits with an attack (any attack, not just the one you helped), the target gets Disadvantage on one attack. Could be worth more than the temp HP depending on the situation.



Thanks for this guide. Very nice!
One minor note: Some benefits of Fey Gift for Hobgoblin go to BOTH you and the ally you help.
Option 1: Both get the temp HP
Option 2: Both get the speed boost
Option 3: Just applies to the ally you helped.

LudicSavant
2022-02-21, 10:49 PM
Thanks for this guide. Very nice!
One minor note: Some benefits of Fey Gift for Hobgoblin go to BOTH you and the ally you help.
Option 1: Both get the temp HP
Option 2: Both get the speed boost
Option 3: Just applies to the ally you helped.

Great catch. Will update accordingly.

Amnestic
2022-02-22, 05:21 AM
Oh snap, I should definitely have talked about Trance. Expect me to update the guide with thoughts on it.

Short version is that it makes the Eladrin and Shadar-Kai buffs even better.

Trance does several useful things.
1) It now gives you 2 weapon or tool proficiencies of your choice, and you can switch out said proficiencies every day, and then make fun of the Githyanki.

You can cherrypick the best weapon proficiencies for your build, which actually matters a little bit for some characters like early-level Wizards (who will appreciate a heavy crossbow over a light one), or Monks (who can get 1d10 weapons to use with Dedicated Weapon). Or just pick up stuff like Thieves' Tools or Disguise Kit. Or swap between a new set of crafting tools each night to make stuff in your bonus 4 hours.

2) It lets you complete a Long Rest in 4 hours, which has implications. You know those spells with 8 hour durations? Well, unless I'm missing something, you can now cast them, long rest, and still have them for four hours.

3) It makes it so that you're conscious during long rests. Consciousness is good, because being ambushed while resting is bad. Bonus points if you've got good sensory abilities (such as by being the person in the party with Perception Expertise or what-have-you). Heck, when the rest of your party is sleeping and gets ambushed, you might already be fully rested and wearing your plate armor.

4) You basically get 4 extra hours of downtime to do whatever the heck you want.

Nice that they spell out explicitly that your long rest is 4 hours.

Seems that the Age of Elves is upon us once more (and that's a good thing).

f5anor
2022-02-22, 06:48 AM
Kobolds
New Kobolds are strong. Damn strong.
Draconic Cry is a bonus action that gives you Advantage on all of your attacks, and all of your allies’ attacks, for an entire round, proficiency bonus times a day. Bloody hells, even if this was only affecting you, it’d be like a Samurai’s Fighting Spirit offensively. As a racial feature. And it doesn’t only affect you, it affects your whole damn party!


I have been looking at Kobolds for a long time, Pack Tactics was indeed very interesting. I believe Draconic Cry is a bit of a nerf, however it opens new interesting options for group play. I cannot wait to use a group of Kobolds against my players :smallsmile:

Are there any good ideas to turn the advantage gained from Draconic Cry into a (near)permanent benefit?



Hobgoblin
This one is more of a reimagining than a simple tweak!

Fortune from the Many is a very strong feature. Like, you know how people sometimes say Advantage is worth very roughly as much as a +3 on the roll, and how the Lucky feat is good? Well this gives a +3 on a roll, not 3 times a day but Proficiency times a day. And unlike Lucky, it's a fixed bonus... if you fell 2 short of a roll, you know this will make the difference, and thus it's a lot harder to be "wasted" than Lucky.


This is indeed very strong, its practically an improved Lucky, that you get without spending a feat!

On the other hand, its a pity that the armor proficiency was removed, I really liked your original Abjurer build here.



Goliath
At first glance, the Goliath doesn't look like it changed that much. It just got the 1/short rest to PB/day change and called it a day. But I'd say this makes a big difference for the Goliath. It not only means they're likely to get more mitigation/day, but also that they can use their mitigation back to back to back as needed.

...

Compare this to the likes of, say, the Hill Dwarf granting 20 max HP at level 20, and it reveals just how much mitigation this really is, especially at low levels when 19 HP is very possibly more than you have.

Also, unlike a Hill Dwarf or Shifter’s extra HP, this is actually reducing damage, and thus reducing Concentration saves, extending Armor of Agathys, and the like. Also unlike the Shifter or Hobgoblin, this ain't temp HP: It'll stack with that Glamour Bard or Twilight Cleric or Inspiring Leader or Armor of Agathys or the like.


I am itching to use this with some kind of tank build, possibly Sorcadin based on Oath of Conquest with Armor of Agathys? Maybe also Heavy Armor Master? possibly incorporate some grappling tactics in order to capitalise on "Little Giant" to grapple and move Huge enemies. Enlarge/Reduce would be available as a Sorcerer as well.

Also, Divine Soul to get Spirit Guardians would go great with a tank that shrugs off damage and hurts you when you hit it instead.

This could be a very fun build.

sambojin
2022-02-22, 08:17 AM
Geeessshhh.... A Bugbear Moon Druid. Lvl2? Try that Deinonychus or Frilled Deathspitter form now against stuff that hasn't moved. 3* 1d8+2d6+2 attacks for the D (and maybe an extra one), or 3*3d6+3 damaged attacks for the FD. Makes elemental forms (looking at air elemental for the high-dex here) a lot better as well.

It even seems like one of those racials that could carry over to wildshape, where the squeeze or reach ones don't. Other druids get plenty of use out of lvl2-4 forms as well. Velociraptor (2*3d6+2'ish) , Elk (5d6+3 charge), Jaculi (6d6+2 adv spring), Ape (2*3d6+3) Warhorse(2*4d6+4 charge prone), whatever. That extra damage is brutal with multiattack or bonus damage or charge/prone attacks. Add Alert somewhere to the build, which is always worth it on something that turns into a BFC caster eventually anyway.

And, you can just go into caster form for a 10' reach shillelagh attack when necessary for actual spell casting/ melee, or a thornwhip that works. Those early levels will fly by. If your DM let's that racial carry over to wildshape, you are definitely better than a lvl5-6 fighter, moon or not. Especially by lvl5-6, because you have spells and other wildshape damage bonuses too.

Bugbear druids..... Totally OP if surprise assault carries over. Like, way more OP than nearly anything else.

stoutstien
2022-02-22, 08:21 AM
I'm a little irked at trance. That would have been *the* feature to slap on humans to give them that adaptive feeling but instead they gave it to elfs.

Psyren
2022-02-22, 10:26 AM
I'm a little irked at trance. That would have been *the* feature to slap on humans to give them that adaptive feeling but instead they gave it to elfs.

I dunno, I think mutable proficiencies like this have mystic connotations that are better explained by being a more fantastic race. It's the kind of racial I would associate more with elves than with humanity. And of course, the ability to maintain total awareness while "sleeping," and getting rested in half the time, should definitely be an elf thing.

For humanity I would want something like either bonus proficiencies (I like the +1 background idea which lets humans mix and match to come up with some pretty unique upbringings like a Charlatan Acolyte or a Noble Soldier), or maybe even a free expertise even if that might end up making them a bit strong at low levels where that +4/+6 can go quite a long way.

stoutstien
2022-02-22, 12:12 PM
I dunno, I think mutable proficiencies like this have mystic connotations that are better explained by being a more fantastic race. It's the kind of racial I would associate more with elves than with humanity. And of course, the ability to maintain total awareness while "sleeping," and getting rested in half the time, should definitely be an elf thing.

For humanity I would want something like either bonus proficiencies (I like the +1 background idea which lets humans mix and match to come up with some pretty unique upbringings like a Charlatan Acolyte or a Noble Soldier), or maybe even a free expertise even if that might end up making them a bit strong at low levels where that +4/+6 can go quite a long way.

I don't know why humans are less mystical than elves. If anything they are even more so. Unknown origins and are out doing really dangerous things at the age elves are still children. Humans are thriving everywhere even without a creator backing their play. Humans are scary in DnD lol.

TheSnowHatHero
2022-02-22, 12:12 PM
Well then, let's get to work on optimization.
What are the implications of the new liquid Bugbear? Specifically the +2d6 SA bit.
Assuming a 4 combat adventuring day, of which you can go nova against an enemy that hasn't acted yet in three of them, a 5th level monk gets 4 attacks(EA and flurry) with a 13/20 chance of hitting AC 15(PB and Dex +4) for a good 3*4*(13/20)*2*3.5=54.6 damage over the course of the day.
So, about a fireball of damage.

Can anybody come up with a better build to leverage this? Or is it just going to be a tack-on for EB spammers, PAM fighters, etc.?

stoutstien
2022-02-22, 12:18 PM
Well then, let's get to work on optimization.
What are the implications of the new liquid Bugbear? Specifically the +2d6 SA bit.
Assuming a 4 combat adventuring day, of which you can go nova against an enemy that hasn't acted yet in three of them, a 5th level monk gets 4 attacks(EA and flurry) with a 13/20 chance of hitting AC 15(PB and Dex +4) for a good 3*4*(13/20)*2*3.5=54.6 damage over the course of the day.
So, about a fireball of damage.

Can anybody come up with a better build to leverage this? Or is it just going to be a tack-on for EB spammers, PAM fighters, etc.?

Hunter ranger/fighter/ assassin?

Psyren
2022-02-22, 12:30 PM
I don't know why humans are less mystical than elves. If anything they are even more so. Unknown origins and are out doing really dangerous things at the age elves are still children. Humans are everywhere thriving even without a creator backing their play. Humans are scary in DnD lol.

Yeah but human progress is generally due to more mundane causes - greater drive, ambition, and fecundity than elves while also not being their lesser (at least at the top end) at arcane or martial pursuits.

And sure, adult humans are out doing more dangerous things than young elves, but we're probably dying a lot more often than young elves do too :smalltongue:


Well then, let's get to work on optimization.
What are the implications of the new liquid Bugbear? Specifically the +2d6 SA bit.
Assuming a 4 combat adventuring day, of which you can go nova against an enemy that hasn't acted yet in three of them, a 5th level monk gets 4 attacks(EA and flurry) with a 13/20 chance of hitting AC 15(PB and Dex +4) for a good 3*4*(13/20)*2*3.5=54.6 damage over the course of the day.
So, about a fireball of damage.

Can anybody come up with a better build to leverage this? Or is it just going to be a tack-on for EB spammers, PAM fighters, etc.?

It will depend on whether all your bonus damage instances can be against the same creature or if you have to hit multiple creatures to get it more than once. As written I think the first is possible but not sure if that's what they intended.

Rukelnikov
2022-02-22, 01:00 PM
I don't know why humans are less mystical than elves. If anything they are even more so. Unknown origins and are out doing really dangerous things at the age elves are still children. Humans are thriving everywhere even without a creator backing their play. Humans are scary in DnD lol.

Well, elves have been presented as magical beings since their inception in DnD (being basically a Fighter/Mage), and in Tolkien's work, from where DnD took a lot of inspiration, Elves are the more mystical race.

Also, if you go by the wheel cosmology, Eladrins(*) are to Demons as Angels are to Devils, so, I think its pretty fair to say Elves are more mystical than humans.

EDIT: Also, they kinda literally are the blood of Corellon taken form.

*Eladrins as in Firres, Bralanis, Ghaeles, Tulanis, elf petitioners, etc.

Psyren
2022-02-22, 01:05 PM
Well, elves have been presented as magical beings since their inception in DnD (being basically a Fighter/Mage), and in Tolkien's work, from where DnD took a lot of inspiration, Elves are the more mystical race.

Also, if you go by the wheel cosmology, Eladrins(*) are to Demons as Angels are to Devils, so, I think its pretty fair to say Elves are more mystical than humans.

*Eladrins as in Firres, Bralanis, Ghaeles, Tulanis, elf petitioners, etc.

Agreed but tiny correction there - Archons are the LG counterpart to Devils. Angels (e.g. Planetars, Solars etc) cover the whole spectrum of good alignments and freely travel among those planes rather than being native to Celestia/Heaven like Archons are.

Rukelnikov
2022-02-22, 01:08 PM
Agreed but tiny correction there - Archons are the LG counterpart to Devils. Angels (e.g. Planetars, Solars etc) cover the whole spectrum of good alignments and freely travel among those planes rather than being native to Celestia/Heaven like Archons are.

You're right, I meant the dudes from Celestia.

stoutstien
2022-02-22, 03:50 PM
Yeah but human progress is generally due to more mundane causes - greater drive, ambition, and fecundity than elves while also not being their lesser (at least at the top end) at arcane or martial pursuits.

And sure, adult humans are out doing more dangerous things than young elves, but we're probably dying a lot more often than young elves do too :smalltongue:



It will depend on whether all your bonus damage instances can be against the same creature or if you have to hit multiple creatures to get it more than once. As written I think the first is possible but not sure if that's what they intended.

I should specify Im not saying that humans should get the feature trance as is as much as mechanics of that feature should represent the human's tenacity and adaptability. They spend a short rest swinging around a weapon they've never used in their life before and by the end of it they are moving it like someone who has spent a lifetime mastering it. Same for tools.

Psyren
2022-02-22, 04:11 PM
I should specify Im not saying that humans should get the feature trance as is as much as mechanics of that feature should represent the human's tenacity and adaptability. They spend a short rest swinging around a weapon they've never used in their life before and by the end of it they are moving it like someone who has spent a lifetime mastering it. Same for tools.

I get that you could flavor floating proficiencies differently, but I'm still not a big fan of that. Having it be tied to ancestral memory or fey spirits in some way feels more believable to me than someone being able to retrain skills every night simply by being human and swinging the relevant implements around (to borrow your verbiage). A class having an ability like that I could buy, but getting that just by being a human not so much. Even putting aside the credulity aspect, human is a lot of brand new players' route into this game and having that be the race that teaches those players that choosing their proficiencies is impactful is a beneficial baseline imo.

stoutstien
2022-02-22, 04:22 PM
I get that you could flavor floating proficiencies differently, but I'm still not a big fan of that. Having it be tied to ancestral memory or fey spirits in some way feels more believable to me than someone being able to retrain skills every night simply by being human and swinging the relevant implements around (to borrow your verbiage). A class having an ability like that I could buy, but getting that just by being a human not so much. Even putting aside the credulity aspect, human is a lot of brand new players' route into this game and having that be the race that teaches those players that choosing their proficiencies is impactful is a beneficial baseline imo.

So elves, an already strong race, gets an additional feature because they are magical and humans continue to fall further into the back of the pack because they are for new players and are mundane?

KorvinStarmast
2022-02-22, 04:29 PM
Wait, can the book be bought separately or is it only available as part of a set?

ProsecutorGodot
2022-02-22, 04:32 PM
Wait, can the book be bought separately or is it only available as part of a set?

It will be available separately in May. I'm a big fan of the design intention behind this book but the distribution has left a lot to be desired, I hope this isn't a pattern going forward.

Rukelnikov
2022-02-22, 04:34 PM
So elves, an already strong race, gets an additional feature because they are magical and humans continue to fall further into the back of the pack because they are for new players and are mundane?

Further into the back of the pack? VHuman is amongst the strongest choices in the game for the most played levels. Its only by the third or fourth ASI that the racial feat stops being a super strong feature.

KorvinStarmast
2022-02-22, 04:37 PM
It will be available separately in May. I'm a big fan of the design intention behind this book but the distribution has left a lot to be desired, I hope this isn't a pattern going forward. {Comments censored} Thanks for the info.

solidork
2022-02-22, 04:38 PM
So elves, an already strong race, gets an additional feature because they are magical and humans continue to fall further into the back of the pack because they are for new players and are mundane?

Just because the floating proficiency doesn't make sense for humans, doesn't mean they shouldn't get something else.

stoutstien
2022-02-22, 04:41 PM
Further into the back of the pack? VHuman is amongst the strongest choices in the game for the most played levels. Its only by the third or fourth ASI that the racial feat stops being a super strong feature.

Wasn't referring to V human in this content. You know the standard options that is almost never used outside of rolling 6 odd ability scores.

Rukelnikov
2022-02-22, 04:48 PM
Wasn't referring to V human in this content. You know the standard options that is almost never used outside of rolling 6 odd ability scores.

Oh, yeah, then I agree, I've never seen one in play, VHuman is kind of the standard human for me and my group :P

ProsecutorGodot
2022-02-22, 04:48 PM
Further into the back of the pack? VHuman is amongst the strongest choices in the game for the most played levels. Its only by the third or fourth ASI that the racial feat stops being a super strong feature.

Keep in mind that at some tables standard human is the only option. +1 to each ability score is among the worst ways to highlight their adaptability and every time a new race is given useful tools to actively adapt to circumstances this detracts from what is ostensibly supposed to be the humans strongest selling point.

To build an example, and I do admit this is intentionally constructed to highlight the point, if a Human and Elf Wizard (or class with otherwise limited weapon/tool proficiency) are put into a situation where they need to survive only with what they find and are able to use, the Human is at a disadvantage where their intended identity says they should thrive. The Elf, with this change to trance, can make use of any weapon they find in this survival scenario while the Human is limited to the paltry list of proficiencies that being a Wizard has afforded them. They're actively unable to adapt to this situation despite humans being notable even to other races as being highly adaptable.

The Elf can open their "big yellow book of ancestors" during a rest and become proficient with that Glaive they found but the Human can't even begin to attempt swinging anything beefier than a Quarterstaff.

Psyren
2022-02-22, 04:51 PM
Just because the floating proficiency doesn't make sense for humans, doesn't mean they shouldn't get something else.

This.


So elves, an already strong race, gets an additional feature because they are magical and humans continue to fall further into the back of the pack because they are for new players and are mundane?

Just because I don't like your specific suggestion doesn't mean I'm against rebalancing these races completely. The fact is that neither elves nor humans have been updated yet - because they're not in this book - so I'll table your question until 2024.

stoutstien
2022-02-22, 04:53 PM
Keep in mind that at some tables standard human is the only option. +1 to each ability score is among the worst ways to highlight their adaptability and every time a new race is given useful tools to actively adapt to circumstances this detracts from what is ostensibly supposed to be the humans strongest selling point.

To build an example, and I do admit this is intentionally constructed to highlight the point, if a Human and Elf Wizard (or class with otherwise limited weapon/tool proficiency) are put into a situation where they need to survive only with what they find and are able to use, the Human is at a disadvantage where their intended identity says they should thrive. The Elf, with this change to trance, can make use of any weapon they find in this survival scenario while the Human is limited to the paltry list of proficiencies that being a Wizard has afforded them. They're actively unable to adapt to this situation despite humans being notable even to other races as being highly adaptable.

You did put it a lot better then I did. I need some coffee lol. Yea basically the entire thematic niche humans have is reversed from what is happening. It's worse if feats and V human are I play because then they are excelling at specialization.

Rukelnikov
2022-02-22, 05:03 PM
Keep in mind that at some tables standard human is the only option. +1 to each ability score is among the worst ways to highlight their adaptability and every time a new race is given useful tools to actively adapt to circumstances this detracts from what is ostensibly supposed to be the humans strongest selling point.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of standard human.


To build an example, and I do admit this is intentionally constructed to highlight the point, if a Human and Elf Wizard (or class with otherwise limited weapon/tool proficiency) are put into a situation where they need to survive only with what they find and are able to use, the Human is at a disadvantage where their intended identity says they should thrive. The Elf, with this change to trance, can make use of any weapon they find in this survival scenario while the Human is limited to the paltry list of proficiencies that being a Wizard has afforded them. They're actively unable to adapt to this situation despite humans being notable even to other races as being highly adaptable.

Well, I always thought human should be characterized by their versatility, that's why VHuman's feat and floating skill (no longer special since every skill is floating now) seemed like a good implementaiton to me albeit a bit too strong (its balanced in games were a free feat at lvl 1 is a thing IME).

The +1 to all ability scores doesn't really convey adaptability, and it only conveys versatility if one is extremely generous with the definition given that it "makes it easier" to multi class, which can be argued to be a form of versatility. TBH, idk what they were thinking, if I had to hazard a guess, I think they applied the same design principle they did with base Fighter and Champion sub, where they wanted a "simple" class and subclass, they likely wanted a "simple" race. Otherwise I can't understand why they printed something so boring (and mechanically weak).

Psyren
2022-02-22, 05:17 PM
I'm sure there are ideas to jazz up the standard human I'm not considering. Guess I'll make a thread :smalltongue:

Rukelnikov
2022-02-22, 05:21 PM
I'm sure there are ideas to jazz up the standard human I'm not considering. Guess I'll make a thread :smalltongue:

If the idea is to showcase adaptability, a simple feature that follows current design style could be:

"Adaptability: Whenever you make an attack roll or ability check and don't have proficiency, you can choose to add your proficiency to it. You may use this feature proficiency times per long rest."

I intentionally left saves out since I don't think they really convey adaptability.

ProsecutorGodot
2022-02-22, 05:40 PM
If the idea is to showcase adaptability, a simple feature that follows current design style could be:

"Adaptability: Whenever you make an attack roll or ability check and don't have proficiency, you can choose to add your proficiency to it. You may use this feature proficiency times per long rest."

I intentionally left saves out since I don't think they really convey adaptability.

It's a start but this is a very "flash in a pan" approach to it. It doesn't really meet what I would expect if the earlier level characters are only able to swing the non-proficiency weapon twice.

Thieves' Tools are perhaps the most egregious example of why this might not work, since their use usually requires proficiency*. You're either still restricted from using them, since you're technically still not proficient or you can only manage to use them a few times, completely losing your ability to use them successfully afterwards.
*It's technically that most locks require that you are proficient with the tools to even attempt picking them, it ends up being functionally the same in the majority of cases

I'm liking this is a starting point though.

Rukelnikov
2022-02-22, 06:32 PM
It's a start but this is a very "flash in a pan" approach to it. It doesn't really meet what I would expect if the earlier level characters are only able to swing the non-proficiency weapon twice.

Thieves' Tools are perhaps the most egregious example of why this might not work, since their use usually requires proficiency*. You're either still restricted from using them, since you're technically still not proficient or you can only manage to use them a few times, completely losing your ability to use them successfully afterwards.
*It's technically that most locks require that you are proficient with the tools to even attempt picking them, it ends up being functionally the same in the majority of cases

I'm liking this is a starting point though.

I know its only a few times per day, but I wanted it to be useful when you need it, not after resting for a while, so going with the current racial designs this seemed appropriate. Jack of All Trades is THE versatility feature, and while it wouldn't be out of line power-wise if it was Humans "main" feature, I didn't like copying straight from the bard.

Let's keep this going on a separate thread so we don't derail this one.

ATHATH
2022-02-23, 05:04 PM
Natural weapons... are no longer called that. Instead, they're standardized to all do 1d6+Str nonmagical damage, and can be used to make unarmed strikes.
Wait, does this apply to the natural attacks of races that didn't get into this book, like the CON-based bites of dhampirs?

Evaar
2022-02-23, 06:45 PM
Wait, does this apply to the natural attacks of races that didn't get into this book, like the CON-based bites of dhampirs?

No. None of these explicitly provide general rules that apply across the races that aren't published in the book.

Players and DMs are free to speculate based on the design of these races that they should therefore apply those design principles, such as giving Tieflings their racial spells as bonus spells known, but that's not in the book.

Mercurias
2022-02-23, 09:27 PM
That was an excellent and well considered write-up on the changes.

I feel vague dissatisfaction with the broad uniformity of some changes and annoyance with some of the choices (Shadar-Kai gets hyper-buffed while Fire Genasi loses the terminator vision and gets saddled with *flame blade*?). Overall, though, I think there were probably more good adjustments than bad.

We’re going to see a lot more Shifters and Air Genasi now. Probably a lot fewer Aasimar now that a lot of the raw damage in their transformations has been reduced for utility.

Rukelnikov
2022-02-23, 10:02 PM
No. None of these explicitly provide general rules that apply across the races that aren't published in the book.

Players and DMs are free to speculate based on the design of these races that they should therefore apply those design principles, such as giving Tieflings their racial spells as bonus spells known, but that's not in the book.

It will be weird playing Elves with old and new trance in the same party.


Overall, though, I think there were probably more good adjustments than bad.

Yeah, in general I think changes were good.

sambojin
2022-02-24, 10:44 AM
Actually kind-of happy with the Firbolg changes, especially as a druid main.

When you want to do something, you usually want a fair bit of it. PB uses of the free magics/racials is exactly that.

Need a fair bit of invis? 2/3/4 turns of it tier 1-3 will help a lot (especially as a druid).

Need to Super-Disguise Self? Two-four hours of it will suffice (with invis popping and disguise changing if necessary). But 2-3 continuous hours of it available at lvls 1-8 is very nice indeed. 3'11"-7'11" is essentially *every humanoid printed* for what you can disguise yourself as. And you're a really strong one at that.

Need to Detect Magic? Ok, it's pretty rare that you need to do this one more than 1/Sr, but if you do need to, you can. And in theory, eventually, have it quite a lot. For when that's important.

It seems like a nerf at lvls1-4, but it's not. 2x back-to-back is better than 1x and then Short Rest. At lvls5-8+ it's great to be able to chain invis pops or change disguises as needed (or both). Plus, it gets better later on as well. Oh, and you can stat things however, and druids love +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1. They're not stat hungry, but the +1's do good things in point-buy builds with half feats you expect to take (or never have to, so you take Alert or something instead and watch summons get crazy if conjure spells aren't allowed).


For every other class, they're like mini-Warlock-in-a-can. Mini-Mask of Many Faces that gives you all the options, mini-Invis bonus action pops, plenty of see magic, Beast Speech, heavy lifting, all from racials. It's like 2-3 invocations, but you can just not be a warlock to do it. A fair bit of stuff, that you can do when you need to. Free magic is good magic.

PhantomSoul
2022-02-24, 10:49 AM
Actually kind-of happy with the Firbolg changes, especially as a druid main.

When you want to do something, you usually want a fair bit of it. PB uses of the free magics/racials is exactly that.

Need a fair bit of invis? 2/3/4 turns of it tier 1-3 will help a lot (especially as a druid).

Need to Super-Disguise Self? Two-four hours of it will suffice (with invis popping and disguise changing if necessary). But 2-3 continuous hours of it available at lvls 1-8 is very nice indeed. 3'11"-7'11" is essentially *every humanoid printed* for what you can disguise yourself as. And you're a really strong one at that.

Need to Detect Magic? Ok, it's pretty rare that you need to do this one more than 1/Sr, but if you do need to, you can. And in theory, eventually, have it quite a lot. For when that's important.

It seems like a nerf at lvls1-4, but it's not. 2x back-to-back is better than 1x and then Short Rest. At lvls5-8+ it's great to be able to chain invis pops or change disguises as needed (or both). Plus, it gets better later on as well. Oh, and you can stat things however, and druids love +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1. They're not stat hungry, but the +1's do good things in point-buy builds with half feats you expect to take (or never have to, so you take Alert or something instead and watch summons get crazy if conjure spells aren't allowed).


I think it's better for the character but worse for the game (with caveats that it depends mainly on party composition). Having everyone get some benefit from short rests incentivises (or at least reduces the disincentive for) short rests, which helps Monks, Warlocks, and often damage-takers overall, in addition to helping to disincentivise 5-minute adventuring days, if only slightly (your min and max capacities are closer together, getting the long rest isn't needed to get stuff back, and it makes it more of a spam ability with that being reinforced as you gain levels).

sambojin
2022-02-24, 10:54 AM
Well, I did say I was a druid main. Short rest Wildshape and full-list full-caster kinda makes me see how good some stuff is.

And Firbolg now lets you chain together previously short rest stuff so that it's really useful when needed. It definitely isn't a nerf.

diplomancer
2022-02-24, 11:04 AM
I think it's better for the character but worse for the game (with caveats that it depends mainly on party composition). Having everyone get some benefit from short rests incentivises (or at least reduces the disincentive for) short rests, which helps Monks, Warlocks, and often damage-takers overall, in addition to helping to disincentivise 5-minute adventuring days, if only slightly (your min and max capacities are closer together, getting the long rest isn't needed to get stuff back, and it makes it more of a spam ability with that being reinforced as you gain levels).

The game really seems to be phasing out short rest abilities. For better or worse, I'm not sure if there WILL be short rest resources once 5.5 comes along.

PhantomSoul
2022-02-24, 11:05 AM
The game really seems to be phasing out short rest abilities. For better or worse, I'm not sure if there WILL be short rest resources once 5.5 comes along.
(emphasis mine!)

Tragically, yeah. Oh well, that seems to be the way with good design ideas, especially when the implementation could have been tighter.

diplomancer
2022-02-24, 11:12 AM
(emphasis mine!)

Tragically, yeah. Oh well, that seems to be the way with good design ideas, especially when the implementation could have been tighter.

I'm very ambivalent about it myself, hence my wording. I LIKE the "theory" of Short Rests, but it can be frustrating to play in a party that doesn't understand the idea very well. So maybe it IS a case of the best being the enemy of the good; I'm still not sure.

MoiMagnus
2022-02-24, 11:18 AM
Fire Genasi getting Flame Blade as their new thing is honestly embarrassing. There's a bunch of fire spells from the 2nd level spell list to choose from and they gave them literally the worst one? Bizarre.

By the way, has anyone tried to buff flame blade by removing this stupid "you need an action to make a melee spell attack with it" and make it an actual weapon like Shadow blade? ("It counts as a simple melee weapon, with the light and finesse property, with which you are proficient"). Sure, it means you have to fight with Str/Dex instead of your spellcasting modifier (unless you add this to the spell too), but at least it would work with attacks of opportunity and extra attack.

Psyren
2022-02-24, 11:18 AM
(emphasis mine!)

Tragically, yeah. Oh well, that seems to be the way with good design ideas, especially when the implementation could have been tighter.


I'm very ambivalent about it myself, hence my wording. I LIKE the "theory" of Short Rests, but it can be frustrating to play in a party that doesn't understand the idea very well. So maybe it IS a case of the best being the enemy of the good; I'm still not sure.

I think there's an approach that gets the best of both worlds - make everything x/LR (where X typically = PB), but provide some kind of SR recovery mechanic similar to a wizard's Arcane Recovery or the Soulknife's ability to get a single psionic die back. That way, games with lots of short rests get some kind of benefit for doing so, but they're not so drastically/precipitously different than games that only do one or zero.

Evaar
2022-02-24, 01:11 PM
By the way, has anyone tried to buff flame blade by removing this stupid "you need an action to make a melee spell attack with it" and make it an actual weapon like Shadow blade? ("It counts as a simple melee weapon, with the light and finesse property, with which you are proficient"). Sure, it means you have to fight with Str/Dex instead of your spellcasting modifier (unless you add this to the spell too), but at least it would work with attacks of opportunity and extra attack.

I don't think that's helpful to the classes who get it. It's a Druid spell, and Tasha's added it to Sorcerers. You might end up with a situation where Sorcadins like it, but Druids aren't going to invest in Str/Dex because of one spell that gives them a decent weapon the same way Wizards don't invest in Str/Dex for Shadow Blade. Instead you have Attack-focused characters looking for ways to pick it up.

If the goal is to make Flame Blade something Druids and Sorcerers would use, it needs to either do way more damage, or not use Concentration, or not require closing to melee (think Spiritual Weapon), or some combination thereof. But it should continue to use the casting ability as the attack modifier.

sambojin
2022-03-05, 04:36 AM
I mentioned it in my "wow, how good are Firbolg's now?" bit above. But how good is Super Disguise Self now as a racial spell?

PB uses a day, so you can back-to-back it for several hours of use before a short rest, and you can also use your spell slots to cast it? For more non-concentration hours of it.

3'4"-7'4" tall disguises with a minimum height Firbolg (6'4"). So, literally everything humanoid that you'd want to pretend to be. And you could sustain this stuff for hours by lvl5+, or just change disguises at will. But especially with spell slots to use it with, for huge amounts of sustain.

Super Mask of Many Faces, as a part of the racial / 1lvl MC caster dip package. I'd honestly Arcane Recover that stuff, for the 1lvl of Wizard dip it would cost me. And ritual everything else. Or Land Druid it, but just as a 2-3 lvl dip (with wildshape and summoning on top of it, for giggles).

Or, Barb/ Fighter/ Pally/ Monk(?) it out, knowing I had good non-combat "cantrips". Like, actually useful spells and abilites as a package, instead of only ribbons (these are, but they're "nice ribbons"). You could just about be in any subclass of the above, with pretty maxed stats towards these classes, and go "Yep, enough stuff to do outside of combat" with them. No extra magic needed, just got enough to get by, because of my barely-a-giant heritage. Face, place, or whatever. Having invis pops as an extra defence dodge probably helps too, alongside talking to animals. And definitely knowing that you're grabbing the best magic weapon or armour or item in any loot pile.


I think they'll stay as one of my favourites, that actually would take me away from being a druid main into other classes, for the sheer BSery they can pull. Disguises, invis pops, see magic whenever..... Sounds fun.

I just forgot that the leak said "you can use your spell slots to cast these racial spells", and since it's a Super version of the spell, it's really good. Any full caster, or a lvl1-3 dip for more spells and slots, seems like it'd be fun to use. Wiz for +1 slots if stat possible, but Cleric will cover you for sheer "good spells regardless, +guidance skills" too. Can use any caster stat for super disguises too. And stats are +2any/+1any, or +1/+1/+1 now.


Martial character +1lvl Cleric dip, because 14Wis is handy anyway? And so is Bless and Healing Word and Guidance. Arcana or Forge seems reasonable (or Twilight or Peace if you don't really care on balance). Seems like it'd be fun to play. Probably an Arcana dip on a lvl3 start. Fighter 2, Arcana 1.
2 Wiz cantrips, 3 Cleric cantrips, Firbolg caster package, and lots of Fighter for lots of levels after that. Tonnes of magic, but tonnes of Fighter too. Not bad for a 1lvl dip and a racial. Could even throw in Feytouched later, if you really wanted to (don't, you have fightery things to do now with your ASIs, and lotsa magic anyway. Like, more than most 1/3rd casters ever have, so go a full martial subclass).

LudicSavant
2022-03-10, 05:26 PM
Updated the list a bit -- mostly with some extra notes on the Orc, as well as mentioning trance for the elves.

Orc gets a good deal in MPMM. They've got a bonus action dash, temp HP to go with it, and Relentless Endurance. They finally feel like a real race, after... what, at least 4 versions?

I'm a bit on the fence about their rating. I might wanna put them and Firbolgs higher than Tortle and Duergar. Hmm. What do you think?

stoutstien
2022-03-10, 06:51 PM
Updated the list a bit -- mostly with some extra notes on the Orc, as well as mentioning trance for the elves.

Orc gets a good deal in MPMM. They've got a bonus action dash, temp HP to go with it, and Relentless Endurance. They finally feel like a real race, after... what, at least 4 versions?

I'm a bit on the fence about their rating. I might wanna put them and Firbolgs higher than Tortle and Duergar. Hmm. What do you think?

I'd say higher than tortle but duergar a hard call. For a general rating probably higher but with special clause for just how rare stun resistance and it comes with a laundry list of other good features. Both would be green in my eyes using your scale.

Dr.Samurai
2022-03-10, 10:07 PM
I mentioned it in my "wow, how good are Firbolg's now?" bit above. But how good is Super Disguise Self now as a racial spell?

PB uses a day, so you can back-to-back it for several hours of use before a short rest, and you can also use your spell slots to cast it? For more non-concentration hours of it.

3'4"-7'4" tall disguises with a minimum height Firbolg (6'4"). So, literally everything humanoid that you'd want to pretend to be. And you could sustain this stuff for hours by lvl5+, or just change disguises at will. But especially with spell slots to use it with, for huge amounts of sustain.
Am I missing something? I thought the firbolg can only Disguise Self 1/Long Rest.

sambojin
2022-03-10, 10:25 PM
Maybe. It used to be 1/sr, so it would be PB/lr now. So you can chain disguises. Don't have the book yet, so could be wrong.

As an aside, how far did they disconnect height and weight from the base race? If it's totally disconnected, you could be a 3'1" tall Firbolg (a really dwarf giant), and disguise self down to 1" in height.. Just a thought.... Lol


((I don't even know how that would work with cover. You're actually 3'1" tall, you just appear to be 1" tall as an illusion. Could you hide behind a backpack?))

LudicSavant
2022-03-10, 10:28 PM
Maybe. It used to be 1/sr, so it would be PB/lr now. So you can chain disguises. Don't have the book yet, so could be wrong.

The disguise self is still just once (though it now adds Disguise Self to your spells known, too). Hidden Step, however, is PB/day.


As an aside, how far did they disconnect height and weight from the base race? If it's totally disconnected, you could be a 3'1" tall Firbolg (a really dwarf giant), and disguise self down to 1" in height.. Just a thought.... Lol

Firbolgs are still limited to Medium. Some other races, like Genasi, have the choice of being Medium or Small.

sambojin
2022-03-10, 10:34 PM
Ok, so it's a bit of a nerf then. Pity. Sorry for the wrong theory-crafting above. The original 1/sr was way better than the MMotM 1/day then, unless you have heaps lvl1 of spell slots just laying around.

Stealth nerf to a stealth ability. Arrrrggghhh.... *head explodes*

LudicSavant
2022-03-10, 10:36 PM
Ok, so it's a bit of a nerf then. Pity. Sorry for the wrong theory-crafting above. The original 1/sr was way better than the MMotM 1/day then, unless you have heaps lvl1 of spell slots just laying around.

Yeah, the Disguise Self and Detect Magic seems to have actually taken a nerf to its uses/day. In return, Hidden Step got switched to PB/day.

sambojin
2022-03-10, 11:41 PM
Might want to mention it in the write-up of Firbolgs. I assumed it went from 1/sr to PB/lr (because everything else with races did), but 1/lr for Super Disguise Self and Detect Magic is a lot less.

Fair enough, they're lvl1 spell slots, so it still is a fair bit of magic. But the VGtM version probably is better if disguises are your thing. PB/lr invis pops still are very nice for sustainable invis/ defence/ non-counterspelling, but in the right 2/sr a day campaign the original is probably more powerful(?).

I actually don't mind how they did it. It's almost as though they set a standard for all other races, then went "wow, that Firbolg magic thing is a bit too good if it's like that". It's almost like WotC occasionally does notice balance issues.

But they did print the Bugbear in the same book, so it's only occasionally. Lol

PhantomSoul
2022-03-10, 11:55 PM
I actually don't mind how they did it. It's almost as though they set a standard for all other races, then went "wow, that Firbolg magic thing is a bit too good if it's like that". It's almost like WotC occasionally does notice balance issues.

I dunno, I'd guess it's more of a fluke; typo seems more likely at this point, given their history! xD

Hael
2022-03-11, 12:40 AM
I very much hope most DMs allow the old races to still be chosen. The design choice here seems to be more one of uniformity, where everything is squashed into what looks like a formula.

Witty Username
2022-03-11, 03:01 AM
My gut says that kobold is nerfed overall, draconic cry is a little better than grovel, cower and beg but the usage is still limited and the range is still low.
And it comes with the loss of pack tactics, even taking into account the dropping of sunlight sensitivity this is a significant net loss.
Generally speaking the kobold now will have short bursts of advantage rather, than a consistent source of advantage. And will require kobolds to be more of a melee character.

Edit: oof, and githyanki got its legs broken losing armor proficiency. That definitely hurts.

diplomancer
2022-03-11, 04:26 AM
Edit: oof, and githyanki got its legs broken losing armor proficiency. That definitely hurts.

Everyone's losing their Armor proficiency, Mountain Dwarves are next on the chopping block; it's a shame, as the different races seem to be losing their cultural specificities, but necessary in a world of variable ASIs.

werescythe
2022-03-21, 10:58 PM
Yeah, I must say that I really like the changes to goblin. For someone who usually plays in groups that go from long rest to long rest, Fury of the Small is now more useful plus the resistance to charm (magical that is) is pretty awesome. :smallsmile:

Gurgeh
2022-03-21, 11:39 PM
Everyone's losing their Armor proficiency, Mountain Dwarves are next on the chopping block; it's a shame, as the different races seem to be losing their cultural specificities, but necessary in a world of variable ASIs.
I disagree, because the mechanical effect of these cultural proficiencies ended up discouraging players from leaning into them. A Mountain Dwarf fighter got absolutely nothing from their proficiencies, and you were instead encouraged to slap them on a wizard for cheap and effective AC and never mind the aesthetic.


Generally speaking the kobold now will have short bursts of advantage rather, than a consistent source of advantage. And will require kobolds to be more of a melee character.
Remember that Draconic Cry gives those short bursts of advantage to your whole party, including you, and only uses a bonus action. It's going to really make a difference on the turns it come out.

diplomancer
2022-03-21, 11:55 PM
I disagree, because the mechanical effect of these cultural proficiencies ended up discouraging players from leaning into them. A Mountain Dwarf fighter got absolutely nothing from their proficiencies, and you were instead encouraged to slap them on a wizard for cheap and effective AC and never mind the aesthetic.

As I said, necessary on a world of moveable ASIs. With fixed ASIs, I still saw far more Fighter and Barbarians mountain Dwarves (and the odd rogue) than Wizards.

Not to rehash a point that has been rehashed to death since Tasha's, but those cultural proficiencies were not only for creating PCs, but for worldbuilding as well; in a way, you could say they were "DM-facing".

Gurgeh
2022-03-22, 12:21 AM
I feel that racial armour proficiencies are a fundamentally bad idea with or without floating ASIs; they're far too low-cost a way to gain something that's otherwise very difficult to get, and have a far bigger impact on characters than weapon, tool, or even skill proficiencies will. They're situationally way too good or wasted, and neither situation is desirable. It doesn't even have any Weird D&D History reasons behind it like the High Elf weapon proficiencies, it was a wholly new thing in 5e.

Psyren
2022-03-22, 10:34 AM
Not to rehash a point that has been rehashed to death since Tasha's, but those cultural proficiencies were not only for creating PCs, but for worldbuilding as well; in a way, you could say they were "DM-facing".

You can worldbuild all the mountain dwarf NPCs in your setting to have above-average Con/Str without a fixed ASI giving you permission to do so. Like I wouldn't expect Loxodon and Goliath commoners to all be running around with 10 Str/Con either.


I feel that racial armour proficiencies are a fundamentally bad idea with or without floating ASIs; they're far too low-cost a way to gain something that's otherwise very difficult to get, and have a far bigger impact on characters than weapon, tool, or even skill proficiencies will. They're situationally way too good or wasted, and neither situation is desirable. It doesn't even have any Weird D&D History reasons behind it like the High Elf weapon proficiencies, it was a wholly new thing in 5e.

Yes, and even in prior editions armor proficiency didn't give you the ability to cast arcane spells with impunity wearing that armor, you needed additional build resources spent too. 5e got rid of that, and while that's nice from a simplicity standpoint, it means that racial armor proficiency (especially Medium+) ended up being too good for its cost.

ZRN
2022-03-22, 10:48 AM
I actually don't mind how they did it. It's almost as though they set a standard for all other races, then went "wow, that Firbolg magic thing is a bit too good if it's like that". It's almost like WotC occasionally does notice balance issues.

Yeah, I think they were kind of fast and loose with race design up to now, and now they're gathering up all the PC races and homogenizing the aspects that don't really add anything to make the races feel distinct anyway. The end result is that you get races that feel as distinct to play as they ever did, but have fewer weird differences you need to remember, and in the process they can even out any discrepencies in power level.



The game really seems to be phasing out short rest abilities. For better or worse, I'm not sure if there WILL be short rest resources once 5.5 comes along.

I dunno, I think it's more that they realized that people are less likely to keep track of short-rest ability recovery for grab-bag racial and subclass features. ("Did I already do the turn-invisible thing since our last short rest?") Everyone's definitely going to be resetting their character sheets on a long rest, so putting abilities there make them less likely to get ignored. I don't think that the same effect comes into play for more important class or subclass resources (like battlemaster dice or warlock spells), which players aren't likely to forget about.

diplomancer
2022-03-22, 10:55 AM
You can worldbuild all the mountain dwarf NPCs in your setting to have above-average Con/Str without a fixed ASI giving you permission to do so. Like I wouldn't expect Loxodon and Goliath commoners to all be running around with 10 Str/Con either.

Sure, it's not a problem if you're familiar with the game and the pseudo-Tolkien fantasy genre the game is derived from.

But if you're a 10 year old kid picking up the game in a store because it looks cool, you've just lost a worldbuilding tool, and don't even know it.

But again, this would be to rehash this old argument.



I dunno, I think it's more that they realized that people are less likely to keep track of short-rest ability recovery for grab-bag racial and subclass features. ("Did I already do the turn-invisible thing since our last short rest?") Everyone's definitely going to be resetting their character sheets on a long rest, so putting abilities there make them less likely to get ignored. I don't think that the same effect comes into play for more important class or subclass resources (like battlemaster dice or warlock spells), which players aren't likely to forget about.

Interesting. For me, the main drawback of the "new style" is that it's more of a trouble to track. Instead of thinking "Have I used it since I've last rested?", now you have to be marking and unmarking checkboxes all the time. Not so much of a problem in a digital world, but for those with pen and paper character sheets, there's going to be considerable wear and tear...

Psyren
2022-03-22, 11:07 AM
But if you're a 10 year old kid picking up the game in a store because it looks cool, you've just lost a worldbuilding tool, and don't even know it.=

I'll spite any number of hypothetical 10 year olds (who should be starting this game with existing hobbyists anyway) for floating ASIs, thanks!


I dunno, I think it's more that they realized that people are less likely to keep track of short-rest ability recovery for grab-bag racial and subclass features. ("Did I already do the turn-invisible thing since our last short rest?") Everyone's definitely going to be resetting their character sheets on a long rest, so putting abilities there make them less likely to get ignored. I don't think that the same effect comes into play for more important class or subclass resources (like battlemaster dice or warlock spells), which players aren't likely to forget about.

It also prevents those races from feeling drastically different if you play at a table with 0-1 short rests per LR vs. if you play at one with 2-3 per LR. (Or more, though I think that's pretty rare.)

Doug Lampert
2022-03-22, 11:19 AM
Well, elves have been presented as magical beings since their inception in DnD (being basically a Fighter/Mage),

Elves in the original game were NOT fighter/mages.

Basic was NOT the original game.

MisterD
2022-04-11, 09:26 PM
If I ever DM a game. The races will have the 'traditional' Stat ranges and race features. The Players are the heroes of the 'story' and are different from the majority. Bob the dwarf was the first in his family to make it into the arcane academy Thus he moved his +2 to Intelligence instead of Constitution since he is more learned than his brothers and spends very little time in mines/Smithy to build up his constitution.

Just my take.

Psyren
2022-04-11, 10:34 PM
If I ever DM a game. The races will have the 'traditional' Stat ranges and race features. The Players are the heroes of the 'story' and are different from the majority. Bob the dwarf was the first in his family to make it into the arcane academy Thus he moved his +2 to Intelligence instead of Constitution since he is more learned than his brothers and spends very little time in mines/Smithy to build up his constitution.

Just my take.

Note that the newer races have no "tradition" to speak of. Satyrs and Fairies for instance were never printed with fixed ASIs, nor were Plasmoids, Giff, or Thri-Kreen.

P. G. Macer
2022-04-11, 11:20 PM
Note that the newer races have no "tradition" to speak of. Satyrs and Fairies for instance were never printed with fixed ASIs, nor were Plasmoids, Giff, or Thri-Kreen.

Nitpick: Satyrs were printed in Mythic Odysseys of Theros with fixed ASIs of +1 DEX +2 CHA. They along with the Leonin were the last races to be published with fixed ASIs, as Tasha’s was published later that same year.

Polyphemus
2022-04-12, 12:39 AM
I'm generally all for the decoupling of races from monolithic cultures, in particular ones that are stereotypically evil, like orcs, goblinoids, etc.
Though I'd be lying if I said I wasn't dreading very minority the prospect of them changing what the Mountain Dwarf gets once they reprint the PHB and almost certainly update the PHB races to be more in line with Monsters of the Multiverse's design philosophy.
Like, I can understand why people don't like the Mountain Dwarf having Light/Medium armor proficiency, think its cheesy, especially on a caster, but to me I really like it just because it feels incredibly "dwarfy," for lack of a better term, for them to be able to get heavy armor proficiency while single-classed as Wizard using but a single feat. Just the idea of "people think the Mountain Dwarves have no Wizards or Sorcerers of note; they do, they just wear heavy armor like the Fighters do," is one that speaks to what I feel dwarves should be like.

And like, I know that's contradictory; I'm literally seeing goblins and orcs and such getting a chance for some cultural diversity and branching out and saying "yes good" and then even thinking about that happening to the dwarves I go "wait no." I realize it's irrational.

And I also realize that this is entirely just an assumption that Mountain Dwarves will lose their racial armor proficiency, like I don't know for a fact that they will, and even if they do lose it (at least, if WotC upholds the stated intention of having everything being "backwards compatible," so to speak) there isn't a good reason outside of a given DM flatly saying "no" that I can't just use the OG PHB Mountain Dwarves with the Tasha's rules for swapping racial ASIs around...
But still.



Unlike a usual dwarf, this has a 30 foot movement speed, but gets slowed normally by plate armor.
Also this and, of all things, the Fire Genasi having grayscale Darkvision instead of red concerns me, in that it feels like they just copy/pasted the Speed and every instance of Darkvision and forgot to go back and ever change the ones with little quirks, and with this one it actually matters, because you might dump STR banking on the thought you can still move normally in your heavy armor only to be told, "Oh wait, this version of the Duergar doesn't have that feature." It feels like either laziness, or an oversight.


......and wow does it feel like they did Minotaurs dirty??? Like I already was really disappointed with the final version of 5e's playable Minotaur when it came out in Ravnica, as nearly all of its abilities were tied to its horns. And it looks like it's almost worse, here, because they actually lost the one skill proficiency they had before, and apparently only got Labyrinthine Recall to make up for that??? Like I like Labyrinthine Recall, but it's ribbon-y enough that I don't think it in any way outweighs the mechanical benefit of an extra skill proficiency. Woof.
I've thought for years how much I prefer the Minotaur that was in the Planeshift: Amonkhet article that came out years ago, and that was literally the Half-Orc with Darkvision replaced with a d6 horn natural weapon.
Because Relentless Endurance is always useful, Savage Attacks can be a godsend with a lucky roll in a sticky situation even if you're not a melee attacker, and having an extra skill proficiency is never a bad thing.
Whereas all the horn stuff is just so...one note.
Like seriously, did the guy designing the 5e Minotaur race have a character die to a Minotaur's horn attack back in the day, and just, never let go of that???
Eugh.

Psyren
2022-04-12, 08:57 AM
......and wow does it feel like they did Minotaurs dirty??? Like I already was really disappointed with the final version of 5e's playable Minotaur when it came out in Ravnica, as nearly all of its abilities were tied to its horns. And it looks like it's almost worse, here, because they actually lost the one skill proficiency they had before, and apparently only got Labyrinthine Recall to make up for that??? Like I like Labyrinthine Recall, but it's ribbon-y enough that I don't think it in any way outweighs the mechanical benefit of an extra skill proficiency. Woof.
I've thought for years how much I prefer the Minotaur that was in the Planeshift: Amonkhet article that came out years ago, and that was literally the Half-Orc with Darkvision replaced with a d6 horn natural weapon.
Because Relentless Endurance is always useful, Savage Attacks can be a godsend with a lucky roll in a sticky situation even if you're not a melee attacker, and having an extra skill proficiency is never a bad thing.
Whereas all the horn stuff is just so...one note.
Like seriously, did the guy designing the 5e Minotaur race have a character die to a Minotaur's horn attack back in the day, and just, never let go of that???
Eugh.

Yes, Labyrinthine Recall does feel weaker than a skill proficiency to me - you can almost always guarantee a floating proficiency will be useful, whereas advantage on one specific use of Survival (following tracks) may never come up, and knowing where north is can usually be achieved with a compass if not a skill check.

With that said, Treantmonk* did release a recent video on optimizing Minotaurs, and there he noted that "pushing enemies 10ft away from you" can include straight up as written, i.e. your character is flipping enemies into the air with their horns so they take falling damage and fall prone. On top of being decent damage it's just a cool visual for the race in general. (He optimizes this further by adding Crusher and diagonal movement to achieve 20ft of lift but that piece of it may not fly at every table as it requires "juggling" the foe, though it should work as written per Xanathar's.)

*usual disclaimer about saying this guy's name here

Willowhelm
2022-04-12, 10:35 AM
Yes, Labyrinthine Recall does feel weaker than a skill proficiency to me - you can almost always guarantee a floating proficiency will be useful, whereas advantage on one specific use of Survival (following tracks) may never come up, and knowing where north is can usually be achieved with a compass if not a skill check.

With that said, Treantmonk* did release a recent video on optimizing Minotaurs, and there he noted that "pushing enemies 10ft away from you" can include straight up as written, i.e. your character is flipping enemies into the air with their horns so they take falling damage and fall prone. On top of being decent damage it's just a cool visual for the race in general. (He optimizes this further by adding Crusher and diagonal movement to achieve 20ft of lift but that piece of it may not fly at every table as it requires "juggling" the foe, though it should work as written per Xanathar's.)

*usual disclaimer about saying this guy's name here

I believe he actually uses the crusher move to set up the situation so that “away” is into the air. By default you’d be relying on the DM to allow “away” to be upwards with just the Minotaur push.

So the crusher isn’t further optimising, it’s a critical part enabling the whole endeavour.

Polyphemus
2022-04-12, 10:42 AM
With that said, Treantmonk* did release a recent video on optimizing Minotaurs, and there he noted that "pushing enemies 10ft away from you" can include straight up as written, i.e. your character is flipping enemies into the air with their horns so they take falling damage and fall prone. On top of being decent damage it's just a cool visual for the race in general. (He optimizes this further by adding Crusher and diagonal movement to achieve 20ft of lift but that piece of it may not fly at every table as it requires "juggling" the foe, though it should work as written per Xanathar's.)

*usual disclaimer about saying this guy's name here
That’s…pretty clever, admittedly, and actually makes a good amount of sense, if you’ve ever seen footage of a matador or Running of the Bulls participant get thrown ass-over-teakettle by an angry bull.
Even so, like, I understand why they gave the Minotaur all these things, because they Make Sense for Any Given Minotaur to be Able To Do; it’s just that even given that having that be pretty much all they can do that’s disappointing, like they way, way, way over-valued these features, in my opinion, to the point where, well…


Minotaurs are pretty bare-bones -- no Darkvision, no skill proficiencies, no resistances, not even Powerful Build! Look how skinny that minotaur is!
[…]
Which ultimately means that the Minotaur is a fairly narrow race... and yet it doesn't stand out even within its narrow domain.

And that just…sucks. It sucks! Especially for a guy who likes his minotaurs as much as I do! It’s frustrating that they have all these features that feel like they almost could’ve just been wrapped up into the Horns feature with an “In addition...” type clause, and then give them two, maybe even three, more standout traits.
Though like I said, I like minotaurs a lot, so I do have a bias to check, there.

EDIT:

I believe he actually uses the crusher move to set up the situation so that “away” is into the air. By default you’d be relying on the DM to allow “away” to be upwards with just the Minotaur push.

So the crusher isn’t further optimising, it’s a critical part enabling the whole endeavour.
Wow, that makes this frustration on top of frustration. A layer cake of frustration :smallmad:
...And wait, unless it's different in this write-up, don't Minotaur horns deal piercing damage, anyway?! :smallfurious:
And so he added "minotaur race rewrite" to his home-brew to-do list, after figuring out something worthwhile for the Battlerager...

Dr.Samurai
2022-04-12, 10:54 AM
I understand the idea that the Hammering Horns and Goring Rush should have been looped into one ability; that would have left some room for more traits.

But, having traits that *only* come up when you score a critical or drop to 0 isn't exactly great as well. They are good abilities, but they're not things you can actively choose to trigger. So it's a different sort of ability. Again, not saying the half-orc sucks. But if I had to choose between horns and the half-orc features, I'd choose horns if I want to play a minotaur.

Psyren
2022-04-12, 10:56 AM
I believe he actually uses the crusher move to set up the situation so that “away” is into the air. By default you’d be relying on the DM to allow “away” to be upwards with just the Minotaur push.

So the crusher isn’t further optimising, it’s a critical part enabling the whole endeavour.

Straight up is already "away" without crusher so it's not critical by my reading. But as with any english language interpretation I expect variation.



...And wait, unless it's different in this write-up, don't Minotaur horns deal piercing damage, anyway?! :smallfurious:

His minotaur character uses a maul, that's what triggers Crusher rather than the horns.

Polyphemus
2022-04-12, 11:08 AM
Straight up is already "away" without crusher so it's not critical by my reading. But as with any english language interpretation I expect variation.
This is the sort of thing I'd definitely have to run by my DM and not just go in with the expectation for it to work like I'd hope, unfortunately.

His minotaur character uses a maul, that's what triggers Crusher rather than the horns.
Ahhh, okay. See, if he did go in for it, I do like this idea of the minotaur getting the ability to air-juggle people like he's some pro Street Fighter player. :smallbiggrin:



But, having traits that *only* come up when you score a critical or drop to 0 isn't exactly great as well. They are good abilities, but they're not things you can actively choose to trigger. So it's a different sort of ability. Again, not saying the half-orc sucks. But if I had to choose between horns and the half-orc features, I'd choose horns if I want to play a minotaur.
That...is a very good point. I agree with the broad idea that minotaurs should be able to do special things with their horns, stuff even other horned races can't; it just really rubs me the wrong way when it seems like Horn Stuff is all they get to do, y'know? :smallsigh:

Psyren
2022-04-12, 11:19 AM
Ahhh, okay. See, if he did go in for it, I do like this idea of the minotaur getting the ability to air-juggle people like he's some pro Street Fighter player. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah I do love the "juggle" imagery too :smallbiggrin:


This is the sort of thing I'd definitely have to run by my DM and not just go in with the expectation for it to work like I'd hope, unfortunately.

I'd go in expecting to discuss it, yes. I don't get why that's "unfortunate" though - this is the kind of thing it's very easy to resolve in session zero if you want to play that character before either side gets too invested. And if they read it differently you either go the Crusher route asap or you shelve that character for this campaign and play something else. For me there's nothing unfortunate about that, it's an opportunity to try again in a different campaign.

I agree that he added Crusher, not just for the additional damage of clearing the extra 10ft but also for the completely unambiguous reading of "away," but as you rightly mentioned the image of rodeo bulls flipping targets over their heads is extremely iconic and thus I'm likely to get it to fly if I'm allowed to use a minotaur at all.

solidork
2022-04-12, 12:15 PM
But, having traits that *only* come up when you score a critical or drop to 0 isn't exactly great as well. They are good abilities, but they're not things you can actively choose to trigger. So it's a different sort of ability. Again, not saying the half-orc sucks. But if I had to choose between horns and the half-orc features, I'd choose horns if I want to play a minotaur.

Purely ancedotal, but I played a Half Orc War Cleric in Princes of the Apocalypse from 5-13 and never triggered Relentless Endurance once.

diplomancer
2022-04-13, 03:06 AM
Purely ancedotal, but I played a Half Orc War Cleric in Princes of the Apocalypse from 5-13 and never triggered Relentless Endurance once.

Relentless Endurance is interesting; if you have it, you should take more risks, because you have a safety net. If you don't take those risks, you might never see use of it (but obviously, if you DO take those risks, it might backfire horribly; you can afford to be braver, but avoid recklessness).

But yes, playing a Half-Orc Ancient's Paladin all the way to 20th level I saw use of it maybe two or three times (and and at least one of those was when I already had undying champion, which made me take even greater risks). But those two or three times it absolutely saved the party, so I can't say it's a bad feature.

Dr.Samurai
2022-04-13, 09:57 AM
That...is a very good point. I agree with the broad idea that minotaurs should be able to do special things with their horns, stuff even other horned races can't; it just really rubs me the wrong way when it seems like Horn Stuff is all they get to do, y'know? :smallsigh:
Totally agree!

@Solidork and Diplomancer: That tracks. Even when taking more risk, generally the party is playing to win, not get knocked out, so you're actively working against your feature. It's a cool feature and I like it. But I think a minotaur will definitely get more mileage out of having a bonus action Shove or a mini-Charger feat, than Relentless Endurance.

solidork
2022-04-13, 10:14 AM
Totally agree!

@Solidork and Diplomancer: That tracks. Even when taking more risk, generally the party is playing to win, not get knocked out, so you're actively working against your feature. It's a cool feature and I like it. But I think a minotaur will definitely get more mileage out of having a bonus action Shove or a mini-Charger feat, than Relentless Endurance.

It sucks because I was totally planning for an epic moment where I barely survive and then cast Heal on myself. It would have been so cinematic! :smallbiggrin:

follacchioso
2022-04-13, 05:20 PM
I like how Orcs are now a good race for cleric. They have relentless endurance, which is good because the last person you want to go down in a party is the cleric.
The BA move is also good to get closer to an ally, to cast cure wounds or other touch spells. Or to run away to safety in case of emergencies.
Orcs are even better than half orcs for this class, as Aggressive is better than Brutal Critical for clerics.

Azuresun
2022-04-14, 04:15 AM
I disagree, because the mechanical effect of these cultural proficiencies ended up discouraging players from leaning into them. A Mountain Dwarf fighter got absolutely nothing from their proficiencies, and you were instead encouraged to slap them on a wizard for cheap and effective AC and never mind the aesthetic.

A better idea might have been to get one "level" of armour above what you already got from your class. Wizards can use light armour, clerics can use heavy, etc. Classes that have them all get the Heavy Armour Mastery feat, or something?

diplomancer
2022-04-14, 05:57 AM
A better idea might have been to get one "level" of armour above what you already got from your class. Wizards can use light armour, clerics can use heavy, etc. Classes that have them all get the Heavy Armour Mastery feat, or something?

Oh, I like that idea, just a few things to iron out:

One- the HAM half-feat; you should only get the damage reduction, not the +1 to Str
Two- how does it work with multiclassing? You improve whatever you get at 1st level and that's it (I prefer that)? Or does it always improve whatever's the best proficiency the character currently has?

strangebloke
2022-04-14, 10:27 AM
Oh, I like that idea, just a few things to iron out:

One- the HAM half-feat; you should only get the damage reduction, not the +1 to Str
Two- how does it work with multiclassing? You improve whatever you get at 1st level and that's it (I prefer that)? Or does it always improve whatever's the best proficiency the character currently has?

Multiclassing is pretty much busted no matter how you slice it. The problem isn't even getting easy access to heavy armor (heavy armor isn't even that good) its the stinking shields. Casters have no reasons not to use shields if they can get proficiency, so its basically a 'free' +2 AC if you can get proficiency, alongside whatever else you get from multiclassing. And this is very easy to do because moderately armored gives shield proficiency, as does any multiclass into cleric or hexblade or fighter or paladin or... yeah.

It's really hard to argue against a sorcerer taking 1 level of cleric.

Compared to this, mountain dwarf giving easy access to medium armor isn't that big of a deal, really. It's 16 AC with 14 DEX compared with 16 AC for 16 DEX (with mage armor) It's better but not insane. The only reason its really nutty is because Mountain dwarf also gets normal dwarf things (lots of proficiencies you can trade away) and also gets +4 stats to start with. Even then its probably only just competitive with a lot of the newer races, while other older ones like the genasi are just getting left ever further in the dust.

Its still kind of dumb at least IMO, but this is what you get when completely switching how races work in 5e. I hope they avoid creating similar perverse incentives with later releases.

diplomancer
2022-04-14, 01:58 PM
Multiclassing is pretty much busted no matter how you slice it. The problem isn't even getting easy access to heavy armor (heavy armor isn't even that good) its the stinking shields. Casters have no reasons not to use shields if they can get proficiency, so its basically a 'free' +2 AC if you can get proficiency, alongside whatever else you get from multiclassing. And this is very easy to do because moderately armored gives shield proficiency, as does any multiclass into cleric or hexblade or fighter or paladin or... yeah.

It's really hard to argue against a sorcerer taking 1 level of cleric.

Compared to this, mountain dwarf giving easy access to medium armor isn't that big of a deal, really. It's 16 AC with 14 DEX compared with 16 AC for 16 DEX (with mage armor) It's better but not insane. The only reason its really nutty is because Mountain dwarf also gets normal dwarf things (lots of proficiencies you can trade away) and also gets +4 stats to start with. Even then its probably only just competitive with a lot of the newer races, while other older ones like the genasi are just getting left ever further in the dust.

Its still kind of dumb at least IMO, but this is what you get when completely switching how races work in 5e. I hope they avoid creating similar perverse incentives with later releases.

I agree that shield is the biggest offender; I've thought of houseruling it so that you only get +1 to AC if you're not holding a weapon in the other hand; after all, the AC bonus comes from being better able to defend your "off-hand flank", but the game assumes that your main hand flank is defended by your weapon; and if that's not true, because you're a caster who doesn't use weapons in the first place, you shouldn't get the full benefit from the shield.

follacchioso
2022-04-20, 09:59 AM
I agree that shield is the biggest offender; I've thought of houseruling it so that you only get +1 to AC if you're not holding a weapon in the other hand; after all, the AC bonus comes from being better able to defend your "off-hand flank", but the game assumes that your main hand flank is defended by your weapon; and if that's not true, because you're a caster who doesn't use weapons in the first place, you shouldn't get the full benefit from the shield.There is the issue of the somatic/material components when wielding a shield.

A wizard wielding a shield and a War of the Warmage will not be able to cast spells S only, such as Absorb Elements and the Shield spell itself, unless they have Warcaster.

Even if they have Warcaster, they will have difficulties juggling expensive components for spells such as chromatic orb, summon undead etc, if their hands are already full carrying shield and a wand or quarter staff.

LudicSavant
2022-04-20, 10:22 AM
There is the issue of the somatic/material components when wielding a shield.

A wizard wielding a shield and a War of the Warmage will not be able to cast spells S only, such as Absorb Elements and the Shield spell itself, unless they have Warcaster.

Even if they have Warcaster, they will have difficulties juggling expensive components for spells such as chromatic orb, summon undead etc, if their hands are already full carrying shield and a wand or quarter staff.

No need for a wand if you use a material component pouch.

Just one of the many reasons that the “S is sometimes worse than SM” rule is more annoyance than meaningful.

follacchioso
2022-04-20, 10:55 AM
No need for a wand if you use a material component pouch.

Just one of the many reasons that the “S is sometimes worse than SM” rule is more annoyance than meaningful.
No need for a wand, but what if you own a wand of the archmage? You need to hold it in your hands to get the bonus to attack rolls.

The same applies for other powerful items. Let's say you acquire a Staff of the Magi. You will only be able to choose two options out of using a shield, using the staff, and being able to cast spells with expensive components (which may be stored in a component pouch). If you don't have Warcaster it gets even worse, as you won't be able to cast shield and counter spell.

This discussion seems to have diverged from the initial topic, though..

strangebloke
2022-04-22, 12:01 PM
My DM let our kobold ranger switch to the updated version this last session. As the party fighter who stands to benefit from advantage heavily my eyes sorta bugged out. The DM seemed confused. "This surely can't be better than a PC having pack tactics, can it?"

....I love my DM, he's got a good command of the game. But lol, we melted that whole encounter. Really goes to show the value of everyone getting advantage in the first round of combat, as opposed to one character getting many rounds of advantage turn after turn. The former case is so much better, it lets you take over the battlefield and eliminate weaker enemies.

diplomancer
2022-05-06, 06:43 PM
So, I just had my first session with a new Bugbear Way of Mercy (starting at level 5) and it's crazy good; that first round is scary, and being able to punch people from far away is also very nice. Probably the best Monk race now. Yes, that includes V. Humans and Custom Lineage. Only possible exception might be a SS Kensei monk, but even then I'm not so sure of it.

Dork_Forge
2022-05-07, 02:55 AM
The Bugbear is probably one of the more egregious changes, it's pretty crazy on any melee attacker with more than one attack.

strangebloke
2022-05-07, 03:16 AM
Yeah, its just so over the top, and on a race that... look, its not got that much in the way of lore or legacy in DND. I think 3.5 was the first place where they sorta kinda were playable and even then there are things like gnolls that have had way more/better development on the lore front. I can't see myself playing one in any setting I've played in, except one where all the goblinoids were treated as one race with different variant statblocks.

Dork_Forge
2022-05-07, 03:22 AM
Yeah, its just so over the top, and on a race that... look, its not got that much in the way of lore or legacy in DND. I think 3.5 was the first place where they sorta kinda were playable and even then there are things like gnolls that have had way more/better development on the lore front. I can't see myself playing one in any setting I've played in, except one where all the goblinoids were treated as one race with different variant statblocks.

The only one that I can think of would be Eberron, but that's about it. I'd allow a player to play one in my setting, but it'd be more 'okay and now let's deal with where you come from.'

diplomancer
2022-05-07, 04:22 AM
Yeah, its just so over the top, and on a race that... look, its not got that much in the way of lore or legacy in DND. I think 3.5 was the first place where they sorta kinda were playable and even then there are things like gnolls that have had way more/better development on the lore front. I can't see myself playing one in any setting I've played in, except one where all the goblinoids were treated as one race with different variant statblocks.

Lore? Maybe not. Legacy? It's got more legacy than Tieflings and Dragonborn, and those are in the PHB. I remember them being scary as heck back when I was playing BECMI when I was 10.

strangebloke
2022-05-07, 11:16 AM
Lore? Maybe not. Legacy? It's got more legacy than Tieflings and Dragonborn, and those are in the PHB. I remember them being scary as heck back when I was playing BECMI when I was 10.

They've been around a long time, but I don't think they've had a huge impact. You don't see a huge amount of bugbear fanart.

stoutstien
2022-05-08, 10:31 AM
So I just got my copy and reading the aasimar changed think radiant consumption no longer automatically targets the user due to the "each creature within 10 ft..." Wording change would allow the user to decide if they want to include themselves in that area thanks to the targeting rules. I could be mistaken.

strangebloke
2022-05-17, 09:07 PM
My DM let our kobold ranger switch to the updated version this last session. As the party fighter who stands to benefit from advantage heavily my eyes sorta bugged out. The DM seemed confused. "This surely can't be better than a PC having pack tactics, can it?"

....I love my DM, he's got a good command of the game. But lol, we melted that whole encounter. Really goes to show the value of everyone getting advantage in the first round of combat, as opposed to one character getting many rounds of advantage turn after turn. The former case is so much better, it lets you take over the battlefield and eliminate weaker enemies.

I would just like to say, this is still busted beyond repair. Had another combat session tonight, and the combo of sharpshooter kobold ranger, battlemaster, and hexadin just absolutely murders everything turn one.

Still, I like this better than pack tactics. At least its a support ability.

Willowhelm
2022-05-17, 10:06 PM
I would just like to say, this is still busted beyond repair. Had another combat session tonight, and the combo of sharpshooter kobold ranger, battlemaster, and hexadin just absolutely murders everything turn one.

Still, I like this better than pack tactics. At least its a support ability.

A youtube video today made me realise another ridiculous pairing. Advantage for all paired with the ever-OP conjure animals. Flood the field to bust the action economy, and then just give them all advantage on top of that. Super OP!

strangebloke
2022-05-17, 10:31 PM
A youtube video today made me realise another ridiculous pairing. Advantage for all paired with the ever-OP conjure animals. Flood the field to bust the action economy, and then just give them all advantage on top of that. Super OP!

Oh yeah, that's great. Normally part of what makes conjure animals so absurd is that you can get creatures with pack tactics who are very accurate for their CR. But if you have another source of advantage, like a kobold, you can pick creatures purely for their damage. Consider that Elks slightly outpace velociraptors for damage from conjure animals even if they never knock an enemy prone. Their damage from their charge bonus is high enough to compensate for a lack of pack tactics.

But if you're a gigachad kobold druid, just summon elks and give them advantage anyway. No proning or pack tactics required, you 150% times the damage output of velociraptor summoner. You'll be dealing like 30% more damage than a full nova sharpshooter EA samurai with 20 DEX

That's nuts.

Ref: https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/blwwcc/a_damage_analysis_of_conjure_animals/

Veldrenor
2022-05-17, 11:17 PM
I would just like to say, this is still busted beyond repair. Had another combat session tonight, and the combo of sharpshooter kobold ranger, battlemaster, and hexadin just absolutely murders everything turn one.

Still, I like this better than pack tactics. At least its a support ability.

I don't remember anyone calling the old kobold busted, and the new one looks like it's a little nerfed compared to the old one. Maybe I'm misreading it, though. What makes it so powerful now?

strangebloke
2022-05-17, 11:33 PM
I don't remember anyone calling the old kobold busted, and the new one looks like it's a little nerfed compared to the old one. Maybe I'm misreading it, though. What makes it so powerful now?

You know how Samurais are good at DPR? Well with a screaming kobold in their corner, the whole party gets to be samurai. The Party gets to be samurai, the summons get to be samurai, the pets get to be samurai. Heck we'll even let the samurai be a samurai, even though he's out of fighting spirit!

you give everyone advantage. For a whole turn. Proficiency mod times per day. As a bonus action.

So think about pack tactics. Even if you get advantage every single round and never lose it because of sunlight or lack of allies, that's going to be what? 5 encounters, 4 rounds each? 20 rounds of advantage? That's really good, but its an idealized situation. Bright light tends to be a problem.

If you're level five with the new kobold you can give everyone advantage for 3 rounds a day. If you have three allies that can benefit from this, that's already 12 rounds of advantage, which is (if we're honest) better than what pack tactics is going to give you most of the time. But when you factor in 4 allies, things like summons, etc., it isn't hard to get up to 20 effective rounds of advantage or go beyond.

But, and this is the really big thing, the Draconic Roar is burst damage. Pack tactics gives you advantage every turn. It gives you advantage in trivial encounters you could have won easily. All those effective rounds of advantage the new kobold is giving? They happen whenever you want them to. Won a surprise round? Scream on the surprise round, scream on the first round you won initiative on, and see how many enemies drop before they get a chance to move. Really hard encounter / only one encounter in the day? Scream for three rounds straight, you deserve it, so does everyone. The Old Kobold gets four effective rounds of advantage in the Hard Fight. You get 20.

It's basically the same overall effect, but you get it when you need it. Also, the old kobold was balanced around two crippling weaknesses: sunlight sensitivity and -2 strength, both of which are gone now, replaced by cantrips or proficiencies and other bonuses.

Veldrenor
2022-05-18, 10:22 AM
If you're level five with the new kobold you can give everyone advantage for 3 rounds a day. If you have three allies that can benefit from this, that's already 12 rounds of advantage, which is (if we're honest) better than what pack tactics is going to give you most of the time. But when you factor in 4 allies, things like summons, etc., it isn't hard to get up to 20 effective rounds of advantage or go beyond.

But, and this is the really big thing, the Draconic Roar is burst damage. Pack tactics gives you advantage every turn. It gives you advantage in trivial encounters you could have won easily. All those effective rounds of advantage the new kobold is giving? They happen whenever you want them to. Won a surprise round? Scream on the surprise round, scream on the first round you won initiative on, and see how many enemies drop before they get a chance to move. Really hard encounter / only one encounter in the day? Scream for three rounds straight, you deserve it, so does everyone. The Old Kobold gets four effective rounds of advantage in the Hard Fight. You get 20.

It's basically the same overall effect, but you get it when you need it.

I can see how that'd be busted in a 5-minute adventuring day campaign. The old kobold could already do all that, but it couldn't spam it during a single fight.


Also, the old kobold was balanced around two crippling weaknesses: sunlight sensitivity and -2 strength, both of which are gone now, replaced by cantrips or proficiencies and other bonuses.

The -2 strength was errata'd out, and Sunlight Sensitivity is only crippling if you do a lot of adventuring outdoors during the day in environments with no shade. Maybe my experience has been atypical, but I've rarely seen that come up except for:
1) random encounters while traveling to/from the adventure site (excluding random encounters while traveling through forests or on overcast days)
2) fighting vampires at level 9+ (because that's when the casters break out Dawn)

strangebloke
2022-05-18, 10:41 AM
I can see how that'd be busted in a 5-minute adventuring day campaign. The old kobold could already do all that, but it couldn't spam it during a single fight.
New kobold is a million times better than Old Kobold in a 5minute adventuring day. You're looking at 9-10 rounds of advantage versus 3-4, at a minimum. But nova capacity has utility outside of a 5minute adventuring day. Many encounters you face will be easy to resolve - no need to get free advantage. Losing advantage on easy encounters is no great loss.

Getting lots of advantage when you need it is really strong. And lets be clear, equaling the old kobold is the least this new kobold can do, if you actually play into it. A fifth level kobold druid can summon 8 elk, each of which do 1d6+3+2d6 on a charge, and give them all advantage. Against AC 14 that's a whopping [0.8765 * 13.5*8]=94.7 damage. That's enough to one-round a troll, and your allies also get advantage. Then you do that the next round.... and the next round.

Also works with animate objects, hirelings, a ranger's volley ability...

The -2 strength was errata'd out, and Sunlight Sensitivity is only crippling if you do a lot of adventuring outdoors during the day in environments with no shade. Maybe my experience has been atypical, but I've rarely seen that come up except for:
1) random encounters while traveling to/from the adventure site (excluding random encounters while traveling through forests or on overcast days)
2) fighting vampires at level 9+ (because that's when the casters break out Dawn)
I don't think "neither I nor what I am attacking is ever in direct sunlight" can be dismissed so easily. Maybe it works in your campaign, but not every campaign is continually indoors.

Willowhelm
2022-05-18, 11:15 AM
I can see how that'd be busted in a 5-minute adventuring day campaign. The old kobold could already do all that, but it couldn't spam it during a single fight.


How could old kobold give advantage to all its allies? I feel like I’m missing something. Are you assuming all the allies would also benefit from pack tactics?

Veldrenor
2022-05-18, 11:31 AM
I don't think "neither I nor what I am attacking is ever in direct sunlight" can be dismissed so easily. Maybe it works in your campaign, but not every campaign is continually indoors.

To be fair, my campaigns aren't continually indoors either. We just usually have some leeway around when we engage the enemy, with the exception of random encounters. If we had someone with Sunlight Sensitivity in the party and the quest is to deal with some bandits who are camped out in a field, we're not attacking that camp at noon (unless the party includes someone with Druidcraft so we know noon won't be sunny).

Veldrenor
2022-05-18, 11:35 AM
How could old kobold give advantage to all its allies? I feel like I’m missing something. Are you assuming all the allies would also benefit from lack tactics?

The old kobold has an ability called Grovel, Cower, and Beg. It's the same thing as Draconic Roar, except it's an action and can be used 1/short rest instead of X/long rest.

EDIT: Grovel, Cower, and Beg also lasts until the end of your next turn while Draconic Roar lasts until the start of your next turn.

strangebloke
2022-05-18, 11:39 AM
The old kobold has an ability called Grovel, Cower, and Beg. It's the same thing as Draconic Roar, except it's an action and can be used 1/short rest instead of X/long rest.

It being an action does make it a lot worse though, you have to admit.

Psyren
2022-05-18, 11:43 AM
It being an action does make it a lot worse though, you have to admit.

Indeed - and 1/SR caused it to (a) vary wildly from table to table depending on how many SRs they give out and (b) potentially cause paralysis in the player by wondering if this is the big fight before the SR where it should be used.

Veldrenor
2022-05-18, 11:51 AM
It being an action does make it a lot worse though, you have to admit.

Yeah, Grovel, Cower, and Beg is absolutely worse than Draconic Roar. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say a lot worse, but certainly worse.

Chaos Jackal
2022-05-18, 11:53 AM
Grovel, Cower and Beg, being an action, is of course much weaker than Draconic Cry, and pb/long rest is usually more practical than 1/sr as well.

I don't see how Pack Tactics holds up against Draconic Cry, or more so how the old kobold is better than the new one.

In a 5-minute adventuring day it's obviously absolutely busted, you're gonna have advantage for yourself and whoever else in your group makes attacks for half the day's rounds or something. But even in a regular adventuring day, you're gonna have at least one use of it every two fights or so, and just handing your entire group advantage against someone that stands in front of you, no saves or other conditions attached (well, they need to be able to hear) is massive.

It's much, much better to have advantage on eight attacks or something over one round than having it over 3-4, and in the regular adventuring day you won't be needing the Cry in every fight anyway; just use it a couple times on fights you deem a bit more troublesome to make the first round really count, therefore considerably reducing the difficulty of further rounds, and save a couple other uses for the big fight you might be expecting and turn that session's boss or whatever to mincemeat.

So Draconic Cry's favored in short adventuring days or when you're in need of nova in general and it's not far behind, if at all, when in longer days with potentially less arduous encounters. On top of that, Draconic Cry just works better with the team, as long as you have a couple people making attacks. You don't care about ranged or melee allies, you don't even care if you're an attacker yourself. You can be a frontline caster, like a cleric or Abjuration wizard and still do it. You don't need to make a single attack for Draconic Cry to be worth it; throw down your control or buff spell, give advantage to everyone as a bonus action, watch the entire encounter go up in smoke. And let's not talk about summons, because then things just cross the line into ridiculous. Frankly, if you can't find a way to make giving your entire team advantage whenever you need, 2-6 times a day, be worth more than just having advantage for yourself all the time, you're just not trying. The ability is extremely practical and synergistic.

And the new kobold also lacks Sunlight Sensitivity (yes, it comes up), has Kobold Legacy (resistance to fear or a free sorcerer cantrip can both be extremely useful) and an extra +1 in stats. It's just a more well-rounded race, strong and useful for everyone regardless of class and, for the most part, party composition.

The old kobold was good for certain characters and parties, in certain adventures and campaigns (true, that "certain" is pretty wide, but still). The new kobold is similarly good if not better, and for everyone.

Witty Username
2022-05-20, 08:23 PM
It being an action does make it a lot worse though, you have to admit.

Not really, you lose out on one character worth of attack actions. Specifically the kobold. That will still beat out pack tactics when it comes up and have similar burst potential to draconic roar.

But I would point out roar and grovel have issues depending on party composition in comparison to pack tactics.

Pack tactics requires a partner to function, so at least one melee directed martial and it works (even a single summon).
Draconic roar requires a party to have significant martial output either by a high yield summon spell, or several martials in the party.

The previous kobold could do well in both configurations. The new kobold requires more deliberate party support.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing though, people were banning kobold from their tables because of pack tactics. Removing it in favor of boosting the other mechanic increases the likelihood of people allowing kobold at their table. (I think pack tactics has some iconic value personally, and find it preferable because of that, and the lore is more flexible than grovel or roar).

sambojin
2022-05-21, 01:04 AM
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I play as a druid most of the time. new-Kobold is definitely better, and could be considered a little broken with many builds (>insert any type of summoner or Druid here<).

old-Kobold never made for a bad druid however, especially with Tasha's. Small, has pack tactics (that can be set off by a familiar or summoned beast, possibly with pack tactics itself, regardless of if conjures even *can* be used) just brought along a lot of reliability. Your to-hit in wildshape or caster-form wasn't what it looked like, from lvl2 onwards. Especially with sunlight sensitivity errata'd out, and "choose your stats, no negatives" being booked in. And you could Healing Word someone as a bonus action, Grovel as an action, and having a fairly fine turn for doing so on adding to DPR for the party.

Yeah, the old-Kobold still has a place in the grand scheme of things due to it always working, but the new-Kobold does have a BS-amazing set of abilities (especially with multi-summons). That are fairly long-ranged, and can be used back-to-back on those big-scary combats.


Having a familiar perched on your shoulder/ in your pocket, that gives you attack advantage, is nice. Super-grovel is nicer, but it only does it for so long. It just does it so much nicer, that the combat should be over within 1-2 uses of it, if everything goes well, which it will, because everyone has the equivalent of a lvl1-3 advantage-giving spell, that can't be resisted, going on them for a round or two.

MisterD
2022-05-21, 11:37 AM
So I now need to be a level 10 Monk for my yuan-ti to regain Immunity to poison

Ogun
2022-05-29, 01:16 AM
If I understand things correctly, the bugbear could be played as a boxtroll.
Their ability to squeeze into Small spaces and their long reach does well to fit them to the part.
Use suspenders to wear a box big enough for a Small creature, run to a spot on the battlefield and hide inside the box
Snipe from inside, or pop out like a jack in the box.
Try a barrel if your not feeling the boxes, for more of an Oscar the grouch feel.
Shadowmonk for teleworking between garbage cans?
Genielock for a tardis effect?
I'm not clear on the mechanics of this, but the visuals are hilarious 😂.
You could gain cover, concealment or both.
A minor illusion could create a duplicate of your box.
Forge cleric could make creating your custom box quite simple.

Millstone85
2022-05-29, 08:36 AM
The ability to talk to snakes is mostly a ribbon.I wish the yuan-ti had that ability, but alas all they can do is calm down snakes.

Yakmala
2022-05-29, 02:18 PM
Attended a convention yesterday and played in a pair of Tier 2 Adventurers League games. Since AL allows players to re-work their characters, I changed a level 10 Bear Totem GWM Barbarian I hadn't used for a while and made a Longthooth Shifter Beast Barbarian.

I was super impressed by how effective the character was! I had always wanted to play a claw based Beast Barb, but was wary of the costs. Different DM's have different interpretations of how the dual wielder feat and the two weapon fighting style work with beast claws, and in any case, a feat and a fighter dip is a high cost of entry.

But with a Longtooth Shifter, problem solved! Typically, I'd rage on round 1, then shift on round 2, getting four attacks per round without having to multiclass or take a feat. I couldn't use magical weapons, but I did have an Insignia of Claws, which provided a +1/+1 and made all the attacks magical. I found the damage competitive with a GWM character swinging 2-3 times and superior against high AC opponents since I wasn't taking a -5 to hit. With reckless, I was rarely missing.

And once we got to the final boss, the DPS shot through the roof! The level 10 ability Infectious Fury can only be used PB# times per long rest, but there's nothing in the description that prevents it from being used more than once per round. All three of my claws hit, and the boss wasn't particularly good at Wisdom saves, so that was an additional 6d12 damage, on top of three claw attacks and a bite attack.

Add to all of this 60' of movement when you rage due to instinctive pounce and a climb speed = to walking speed with no skill check required, and you end up with a fast, highly mobile, highly lethal and very flavorful barbarian that is really fun to play. If you are a fan of Barbarians as I am, I highly suggest giving this combination a try!