PDA

View Full Version : Modelling custom abilities - a system to do this?



ghbok
2022-02-21, 08:02 AM
I've been looking for a tabletop roleplay system that can handle a wide variety of player-created abilities, from elemental magic to shapeshifting to almost-reality warping. It should also be able to balance these abilities, such that no one character overshadows others, nor are characters left useless.

It would be nice if the system is able to resolve most situations without GM adjudication, or at least a minimal level of GM ruling.

I have seen generic systems such as FATE and GURPS, as well as superhero systems e.g. City of Mists and Wild Talents, though I want to hear from you guys too. I haven't had much luck finding fantasy systems with flexible ability systems, though I may not need to.

Any recommendations?

Eldan
2022-02-21, 12:35 PM
FATE works if you don't want it crunchy. If you just say "My character can warp reality" and the DM asks "Okay, how does that work in this scene?"

If you want it crunchy, have a look at Mutants and Masterminds. It has a few hundred power templates and modifiers, that are combined on a points system to basically create every effect you can think of.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-02-21, 12:52 PM
M&M 3e is probably the best system for building custom powers I've ever seen. It takes a little bit of getting used to, but once it clicks it's stupidly versatile (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?279503-D-amp-D-in-M-amp-M-a-new-approach-to-rebalancing-3-5-PF). Balance is... eh...probably about as good as you're going to get with something that flexible. Raw combat balance is probably on par with 5e D&D, in that even if one character has a bunch of spells and the other punches thing they'll both be able to contribute to the same fights. DCAU shows like Justice League Unlimited and Young Justice are pretty good examples of how the system works in practice (down to "Superman and Batman both getting stunned by the same explosion").

If you want something nice and simple, perhaps STaRS (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/268061/STaRS-The-Simple-Tabletop-Roleplaying-System)? You come up with a power, the GM assigns it a category based on how versatile it is, you pay some number of experience points, and you get a power that functions on the same power scale as normal human abilities. Boosting powers to superhuman potential can be done, but works just like boosting your mundane skills.

Batcathat
2022-02-21, 01:01 PM
I clicked the thread to recommend Mutants & Masterminds, but since that's already been done twice over, I suppose I'll just agree with what's already been said. Very flexible, perhaps not exactly balanced (but unbalanced in a better way than something like D&D, in my opinion).

ghbok
2022-02-21, 10:10 PM
FATE works if you don't want it crunchy. If you just say "My character can warp reality" and the DM asks "Okay, how does that work in this scene?"

If you want it crunchy, have a look at Mutants and Masterminds. It has a few hundred power templates and modifiers, that are combined on a points system to basically create every effect you can think of.

From what I see so far, a system needs to be crunchy in order to be relatively free from GM adjudication, is that correct?

It'll be nice if I can find a a ruleset that supports a low-GM interference gaming environment. That is, players can just follow RAW and get an enjoyable experience with minimal judgement calls.

I'll look further into M&M.

Telok
2022-02-21, 11:51 PM
There's Fantasy Hero, its just using the Hero system for fantasy instead of superheroes. The actual FH book is, as I understand it since I don't own it, mainly just how to adjust using the system from supers to fantasy.

ghbok
2022-02-22, 12:46 AM
I'll have to look into both Fantasy Hero and the Hero system, then. A quick look at the official website shows:


The HERO System is unique because it's the only game on the market offering players and GMs the means to create any character they want, and yet keep that character balanced against other characters and threats. It's a point-build system based around the concept of special effects. The rules are written generically, allowing the gamer himself to decide exactly what a power or ability does, and then define it in game terms. For example, you won't find a "Lightning Bolt" or "Wings" power in the book that says, "Here's how you blast people," or "here's how you fly." Instead, the game elements are defined generically. Instead of Lightning Bolt there's Energy Blast and Killing Attack - Ranged; instead of Wings there's Flight.

As a player, you might decide, "I want my character to be able to fly - he has wings." Instead of just writing down whatever the game's designers say "Wings" do, you decide how to represent Wings in game terms, using Flight and some Power Modifiers. A character with the ability to fly by manipulating gravity would build his power using Flight in different ways, since gravity manipulation and wings, while both enabling a character to fly, work differently.

Telok
2022-02-22, 01:33 AM
I'll have to look into both Fantasy Hero and the Hero system, then. A quick look at the official website shows:

Its right for the level of advert it is. A better way would be to grab the basic system rules (3d6 roll 11 or less, and mods) and then check through a couple archives of characters & powers people built. The game's had reasonably little change to core rules through all editions, so even 2nd ed characters from the 80s are approximate to current edition characters. There are people out there with literally 30 years of characters & powers to skim through, at least on the supers side. But going fron supers to fantasy is mostly about moving from high point values with built in character gear to adding sfx limits (level & type of magic mostly) and lower point values with a focus on skills & stunts & purchased gear.

ghbok
2022-02-22, 01:40 AM
Ah, thank you! Seeing that there's little change between editions helps me find more examples & ways to build powers.

Batcathat
2022-02-22, 02:04 AM
It'll be nice if I can find a a ruleset that supports a low-GM interference gaming environment. That is, players can just follow RAW and get an enjoyable experience with minimal judgement calls.

I'd say M&M can mostly live up to this, the abilities are usually pretty clear about what they can do (lift X amount of weight, run at Y speed, transform Z amount of material, etc.) though there are obviously edge cases and potential unorthodox uses.

ghbok
2022-02-22, 02:46 AM
Looks like I'll be studying M&M pretty hard. Any particular preferences for editions?

While we're on the topic of abilities, is there some form of guidance on how to create interesting powers that are fun for other players to interact with? I'm not sure if any one tabletop system can help with that, but perhaps some books or even forum posts have talked about ability design.

Stonehead
2022-02-22, 02:53 AM
I'll vouch for GURPS, modelling weird custom abilities is probably what it's best at. Stacking enhancements and limitations on top of weird advantages can make you pretty much whatever you're looking for. For those reasons, character building is really fun, even just reading through some of the options sparks creativity in your mind.

The one thing you need to be wary of though, is that it's super bloated, and most of the rules are optional. The RAW skill list for example, is absurdly long, basically requiring the DM to read through and white-list a subset of 15-20 skills to offer to the players.

It does lock you into playing at least a moderately crunchy system. Even without tactical combat and the obtuse Physical Feats section, it's quite a bit more rules-heavy than something like Fate. Now, to someone like me, that's a plus. Up to you and your group whether that's a plus or a minus for you.

A good test would probably be to just show them the advantages and modifiers section, and spend 15-20 minutes building some demo abilities, that's what it took to draw me in.

ghbok
2022-02-22, 03:10 AM
GURPS does seem to be the kind of system where I'll want to look up online guides to see how to pare it down, before I actually go with building characters in it. What advantages do you think it has over M&M?

Eldan
2022-02-22, 05:21 AM
From what I see so far, a system needs to be crunchy in order to be relatively free from GM adjudication, is that correct?

It'll be nice if I can find a a ruleset that supports a low-GM interference gaming environment. That is, players can just follow RAW and get an enjoyable experience with minimal judgement calls.

I'll look further into M&M.

Not necessarily. The philosophy of FATE is, kind of, that you have a list of mechanical effects, that your powers should give you, you can just infinitely vary your description. The DM doesn't do much judging of rules, he mainly sets up situations for the players to act in.

For example. You have Aspects. Aspects can be described in any way you want, they all do the same: if there's a situation where they are appropriate, you can spend a fate point to get +2 to your roll. That's it. And your DM really always should allow it. You play a detective game, you put "Retired Cop" down as your aspect. You are interviewing a gangster. THe player says "I'm a retired cop. I know this guy from 10 years ago, I let him go for petty theft, so he owes me a favour", then spends a Fate point and gets +2 to their charm roll. The DM should just nod and play out how the gangster reacts, unless there's a major story reason for why not, like the guy is actually someone else in a really convincing disguise, or his lost twin or something.

All aspects work like that. +2 to a roll if you spend a fate point. -2 to a roll if it's a disadvantage and you want a fate point back. It doesn't matter if your aspect is "Fresh-faced Rookie" or "Last scion of a European Noble Line" or "Race: Orc" or "Wields the Sword of Destiny".

THen, depending on your variation of FATE, you have stunts and class powers, and they are pretty consinstent in their rules effect as well, they just have different descriptions. Most are something like "Get +1 if you do this specific thing" or "Five times per session, you can do this" or "Use this stat instead of that stat for this kind of action".

The DM really very rarely has to decide anything. It's really the main reason why I enjoy running FATE so much, there's very little DM burden. A few games ago, I needed a monster that I hadn't created a statblock for ahead of time. I just wrote down "Very Strong: +2 to Force checks, Kinda dumb, -2 against Guile checks, Unstoppable +2 to speed to chase people and +2 to force to break through obstacles". Done. It was a minotaur charging after the party while they were fleeing in a car.

NichG
2022-02-22, 05:51 AM
Not necessarily. The philosophy of FATE is, kind of, that you have a list of mechanical effects, that your powers should give you, you can just infinitely vary your description. The DM doesn't do much judging of rules, he mainly sets up situations for the players to act in.

For example. You have Aspects. Aspects can be described in any way you want, they all do the same: if there's a situation where they are appropriate, you can spend a fate point to get +2 to your roll. That's it. And your DM really always should allow it. You play a detective game, you put "Retired Cop" down as your aspect. You are interviewing a gangster. THe player says "I'm a retired cop. I know this guy from 10 years ago, I let him go for petty theft, so he owes me a favour", then spends a Fate point and gets +2 to their charm roll. The DM should just nod and play out how the gangster reacts, unless there's a major story reason for why not, like the guy is actually someone else in a really convincing disguise, or his lost twin or something.

All aspects work like that. +2 to a roll if you spend a fate point. -2 to a roll if it's a disadvantage and you want a fate point back. It doesn't matter if your aspect is "Fresh-faced Rookie" or "Last scion of a European Noble Line" or "Race: Orc" or "Wields the Sword of Destiny".

THen, depending on your variation of FATE, you have stunts and class powers, and they are pretty consinstent in their rules effect as well, they just have different descriptions. Most are something like "Get +1 if you do this specific thing" or "Five times per session, you can do this" or "Use this stat instead of that stat for this kind of action".

The DM really very rarely has to decide anything. It's really the main reason why I enjoy running FATE so much, there's very little DM burden. A few games ago, I needed a monster that I hadn't created a statblock for ahead of time. I just wrote down "Very Strong: +2 to Force checks, Kinda dumb, -2 against Guile checks, Unstoppable +2 to speed to chase people and +2 to force to break through obstacles". Done. It was a minotaur charging after the party while they were fleeing in a car.

Well, if by that you mean that the DM has few choices to make in resolving the interactions between custom abilities and rolls, yes. But there's a layer of narrative reasoning where the DM (or someone at least) does need to decide the degree to which those aspects allow a character to do things or access certain resources or activate certain scenes or so on. That sort of thing matters a lot in whether it actually feels like your character has the abilities envisioned, versus if its just a skin.

An easy to adjudicate example would be something like 'Flight' - in addition to whatever +2 you'd get in situations where it'd be handy to be able to fly, there are (probably) things the character should be able to do without a roll, the same way that you don't roll to see if characters can walk across a room. A much harder to adjudicate example would be something like 'Question the Void', where the character (narratively) has the ability to have conversations with some sort of eldritch representation of the totality of existence and sometimes get answers to questions. In contexts where there's a conflict to resolve, that becomes a +2. But can a character use that to for example garner plot hooks? Learn secrets of reality? Spy on someone? Does 'the void' answer mundane questions or just ones of cosmic import? Those are also decisions that the DM has to make or at least participate in.

I like Nobilis as an example of a system where that sort of stuff is very important, the system recognizes it as important, and even though players are encouraged to basically drop a word or concept and build their powers around that, the system gives examples of different ways that a concept could be expressed/influenced, assigns those ways to levels of power, and has character creation questions that ask the player to make concrete the way they see that potentially very open ended power. So if you have the power of Halogen lets say to pick something annoyingly weird, then during character creation you should write down what it would mean to Divine, Preserve (which includes strengthening), Destroy, and Alter the concept of Halogen - what sort of things would be included, what sort of things would not (and there are Lesser and Greater versions of these, which have a specific rules meaning). So if the player is thinking Halogen in the sense of halogen lighting, Preserve Halogen might let you keep things illuminated even after dusk or cause any light source to become much brighter. Does it also apply to halogen lights as a cultural phenomenon - e.g. could you Preserve Halogen to make party planners want to use that specific kind of bulb? That's the sort of thing the player is asked to work out in advance. Of course there's still a need to adjudicate what happens narratively when these sorts of effects interact with the world and each-other.

Eldan
2022-02-22, 06:40 AM
Fate Dresden Files has rules for that kind of thing as well. Obtaining information is usually handled as X pieces of information needex to progress story. Questioning the Void is likely a focus-based check to gain information. Or it's a Pact with an entity, where you gain one level of the Indebted condition to gain knowledge. Many of the sample Mantles (think classes, pre-assembled packages of abilities) have abilities like that.

clash
2022-02-22, 08:56 AM
I don't know if a system that does this specifically but I can imagine it not being that difficult to create. Say you get something like 5 points to create an ability then have categories to assign points to.

Ie
Area
1 single target
2 cone or cube
3 etc

Damage
1 point per d6

Frequency
1 once per day
2 multiple times per day
3 at will

Status conditions
1 prone
2 poisoned, incapacitated
3 etc

Grod_The_Giant
2022-02-22, 10:57 AM
I'll have to look into both Fantasy Hero and the Hero system, then. A quick look at the official website shows:
That blurb is also exactly how M&M works-- from what I've heard, the biggest difference between the two is that HERO has much more complicated math.


Looks like I'll be studying M&M pretty hard. Any particular preferences for editions?
Third edition. There's a free SRD (https://www.d20herosrd.com/) that's pretty complete, as far as I can tell, but it's not really well-organized for learning the system in the first place.


While we're on the topic of abilities, is there some form of guidance on how to create interesting powers that are fun for other players to interact with? I'm not sure if any one tabletop system can help with that, but perhaps some books or even forum posts have talked about ability design.

M&M 3e has a whole book (https://greenroninstore.com/products/power-profiles-pdf) that sort of addresses this? It's focused on players, rather than GMs, but it goes over a few dozen classic superhero archetypes and discusses powers, roleplaying, and goes over a bunch of pre-made powers.


I don't know if a system that does this specifically but I can imagine it not being that difficult to create. Say you get something like 5 points to create an ability then have categories to assign points to.
It gets complicated fast. What if I want to conjure a wall of ghosts that catches ranged attacks and maddens foes who pass through it? Or warp space around my body so that what looks like six inches is actually a thousand miles of distance? Or always be behind you, no matter what? How do you determine the value of the first power compared to the last?

The more variety you want to offer, the more complicated the equation becomes.

Stonehead
2022-02-22, 01:16 PM
GURPS does seem to be the kind of system where I'll want to look up online guides to see how to pare it down, before I actually go with building characters in it. What advantages do you think it has over M&M?

The most significant advantage is that you aren't tied at all to the superhero genre. That may or may not actually be an advantage to you and your group, the original post didn't specify what kind of setting you wanted to play in.

The other big difference is that GURPS is way more rules-heavy and tactical. I called that one a difference instead of an advantage, because it really does come down to player preference. Does your group like being tactical and strategic with their play, or getting caught up in the narrative and acting on instinct? I'm not only talking about combat either, the whole game is like this. Success rates are fairly realistic, so climbing straight up the castle wall to get in through the top-floor window probably won't work... unless if you were prepared and brought a grappling hook or something.

Another thing that's worth bringing up is that GURPS by default has a high level of danger, and fairly slow healing by default. Damage sticks around for a while in GURPS, especially when compared to something like DnD, in which the game assumes you'll heal up to full hp after every encounter. Personally, I like that, but it's definitely not for everyone.


Not necessarily. The philosophy of FATE is, kind of, that you have a list of mechanical effects, that your powers should give you, you can just infinitely vary your description. The DM doesn't do much judging of rules, he mainly sets up situations for the players to act in.

For example. You have Aspects. Aspects can be described in any way you want, they all do the same: if there's a situation where they are appropriate, you can spend a fate point to get +2 to your roll. That's it. And your DM really always should allow it. You play a detective game, you put "Retired Cop" down as your aspect. You are interviewing a gangster. THe player says "I'm a retired cop. I know this guy from 10 years ago, I let him go for petty theft, so he owes me a favour", then spends a Fate point and gets +2 to their charm roll. The DM should just nod and play out how the gangster reacts, unless there's a major story reason for why not, like the guy is actually someone else in a really convincing disguise, or his lost twin or something.

All aspects work like that. +2 to a roll if you spend a fate point. -2 to a roll if it's a disadvantage and you want a fate point back. It doesn't matter if your aspect is "Fresh-faced Rookie" or "Last scion of a European Noble Line" or "Race: Orc" or "Wields the Sword of Destiny".

THen, depending on your variation of FATE, you have stunts and class powers, and they are pretty consinstent in their rules effect as well, they just have different descriptions. Most are something like "Get +1 if you do this specific thing" or "Five times per session, you can do this" or "Use this stat instead of that stat for this kind of action".

The DM really very rarely has to decide anything. It's really the main reason why I enjoy running FATE so much, there's very little DM burden. A few games ago, I needed a monster that I hadn't created a statblock for ahead of time. I just wrote down "Very Strong: +2 to Force checks, Kinda dumb, -2 against Guile checks, Unstoppable +2 to speed to chase people and +2 to force to break through obstacles". Done. It was a minotaur charging after the party while they were fleeing in a car.

I'll throw my opinion into this argument, and say that based on the information we have, I don't think FATE is what @ghbok is looking for. You can really re-skin powers in any system if the flavor is all you care about. Heck, even in DnD, if you want to say your Power-Word Kill is actually rewriting fate to give the target a heart attack, or going back in time to kill them as a baby or whatever, most DMs would let you.

Usually when people want to build custom abilities, it's because they want some of the feeling of being a game-designer, of creating the mechanics that back up the cool idea in their head. In my experience, they're better suited to a more mechanical system where they can build the nitty-gritty details of their power. I don't know for a fact that this is what @ghbok's player's are after, it is just an assumption, but it's a pretty reasonable assumption based on the original post.

You can say your aspects are whatever in FATE, but some ideas really don't match the mechanics there. "My character can bend the flow of time itself, and manipulate it to his will!" "Ok, that gives you +2 to your roll, if you spend a point on it"

clash
2022-02-22, 01:37 PM
.
It gets complicated fast. What if I want to conjure a wall of ghosts that catches ranged attacks and maddens foes who pass through it? Or warp space around my body so that what looks like six inches is actually a thousand miles of distance? Or always be behind you, no matter what? How do you determine the value of the first power compared to the last?

The more variety you want to offer, the more complicated the equation becomes.

I mean sure, but it doesn't need to start all that complicated. It can start with just what you want to represent out the gate and any system other than pure dm adjucation is going to have limits for what it can support. To me it just makes sense to make a system so that it supports what you want it to.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-02-22, 01:53 PM
I mean sure, but it doesn't need to start all that complicated. It can start with just what you want to represent out the gate and any system other than pure dm adjucation is going to have limits for what it can support. To me it just makes sense to make a system so that it supports what you want it to.
But that's sort of what we're talking about here, isn't it? A system that can support as many powers and concepts as possible without devolving into pure GM adjudication?

For what it's worth, the example you gave is the right way to approach such a design goal-- ignore what a power looks like, reduce its mechanics down to a handful of key effects, and assign it a cost based on those.

NichG
2022-02-22, 03:06 PM
For relative costing of very open-ended things, I think one concept you can build around is to first identify what it is you want the system to protect.

For 'what it is you want the system to protect', that's sort of what a lot of the low crunch systems built around a resolution mechanic are doing in order to be stable against arbitrary text inputs from the players. E.g. if you center the mechanics on resolving conflicts between characters who want different things to happen, and you want to protect the ability of all characters to be able to win and lose conflicts with each-other, then something like FATE protects that by forcing anything which would impact mechanical conflict resolution through a bottleneck of +2 to a die roll. As long as you're okay with not asking the system to protect the narrative outside of those conflicts, then 'omnipotent deity' and 'leads a biker gang' can in principle be equally viable, where the cost of any dissonance is placed on the table to explain how a given result came about.

In Nobilis, there's a similar protection but rather than having that be universal it establishes a sort of tier system where the players and entities on or above their level basically can't use their powers directly on each-other at all, things one step removed have a bidding system which must be passed before it matters what exactly the powers are, and everything and everyone else has zero ability to guarantee their agency. So one PC could eat the sun or destroy a world, another PC could eliminate the concept of society or make it actually about funny hats, another PC could teleport to, see through, and animate instant cup noodle products, etc, and as far as what Nobilis wants to protect they're all equals. By allowing some things to not be protected, but to still matter, it creates the space for players to explore different concepts while having a guarantee that even if parts of the setting get broken, there's still a core ability for the PCs and antagonists to retain their ability to act on the world which is respected - you can't really use Domain to enact a 'steal another Noble's powers' ability or 'mind control all your enemies' ability or whatever.

In some forms of freeform play, these things correspond to concepts like avoiding describing how other characters respond or are affected by an action (no god-modding, consent-based conflict, etc).

Going beyond that, maybe you want to protect things relating to character needs and motivations, so you have anything from specific rules like 'powers cannot provide sustenance or render a person's needs for sustenance lower' to broad 'determine what a character Needs - the character cannot at any point use their powers to directly satisfy this Need'. Maybe you want to protect scope rather than just character agency, so you could have a tier system based on the possible range, area, and duration of a power's consequences where the core thing that determines price is the tier, and powers which try to end-run around their tier find that their effects stop at the tier limits in a shimmering wall, breakdown of the effect, etc. A time traveler goes back and tries to rewrite the world with a Tier Local power, and finds they can only rewrite history for one individual at a time, etc. If you want something like tactical or strategic conflicts, you might introduce things like resources and defenses and damage and so on, and price powers based on the damage they're able to cause rather than the specific effects - so if Teleport Object can let you drop a boulder on someone for 200d6 damage, it's minimum possible price is the cost of a 200d6 direct damage power, etc.

It's of course helpful if those requirements have an explanation in-character so its not just some weird nonsensical thing that happened, like the aforementioned omnipotent deity character getting beaten up by the biker gang and kidnapped.

But basically you can build around a skeleton of things which you don't want powers to be able to violate, which means you don't have to worry too much about precise balances between prices and opportunity costs as long as you ensure that you're protecting the core thing you want to preserve. Basically you're buying yourself space to get the pricing wrong, and for that to at most create tilts and skews in the gameplay rather than actually losing things important to there being a game to play.

lightningcat
2022-02-22, 03:48 PM
I ran a FATE Accelerated where making up relevant powers and abilities was the core of the game, and it worked well for what it was. But it also showed me some weakness of that system, which may not apply to standard FATE or Dresden Files which remain narrative based, but have more of a rules skeleton to build on.
Both GURPS and M&M will let you build the abilities you want, but the games operate on very different assumptions, as does HERO but I have not played it. As does any other universal system, as they are generally intended to model a wide assortment of abilities. So I would recommend you to pick whichever one you think would work best and give it a try.

Although to be honest, you can do it in any system. It just might be like putting a jet engine on a Honda Civic, even if you make it work, was it worth it?

Eldan
2022-02-23, 09:23 AM
T

I'll throw my opinion into this argument, and say that based on the information we have, I don't think FATE is what @ghbok is looking for. You can really re-skin powers in any system if the flavor is all you care about. Heck, even in DnD, if you want to say your Power-Word Kill is actually rewriting fate to give the target a heart attack, or going back in time to kill them as a baby or whatever, most DMs would let you.

Usually when people want to build custom abilities, it's because they want some of the feeling of being a game-designer, of creating the mechanics that back up the cool idea in their head. In my experience, they're better suited to a more mechanical system where they can build the nitty-gritty details of their power. I don't know for a fact that this is what @ghbok's player's are after, it is just an assumption, but it's a pretty reasonable assumption based on the original post.

You can say your aspects are whatever in FATE, but some ideas really don't match the mechanics there. "My character can bend the flow of time itself, and manipulate it to his will!" "Ok, that gives you +2 to your roll, if you spend a point on it"


Agreed on most of what you say, yes. FATE is not a gritty system, if you want gritty mechanics building (also a thing I like, I just find it occasionally tiring to run it as a DM), it's not the system for you.

However, a few comments:

Re-skinning can of course be done in every system, and I do a lot of it. I think the main difference is that FATE comes... unskinned? To make up a word. Most powers are fairly generic, and the game books usually spend a chapter or two on how to describe your powers.

And yes, FATE mostly works within closely defined power levels.

(Tangent: A time control power wouldn't necessarily be an aspect, though. There's a few ways I can immediately think of how you can do time travel: FATE works on narrative power, mostly. So, there's one "time travel" power I actually know exists in at least one FATE game already, a power you can call something like "Always prepared". When you need an item, you can declare that you will travel back in time later and place it right where you are looking for it now, so it's already there. (Like in Continuum, if anyone remembers that.) Just "I can manipulate time" wouldn't be one aspect or stunt, though, that would be your character's entire thing, and you'd work together with the DM to define three or four rules effects like the one above your character can do. Maybe you can time travel to send copies of yourself to a fight (combat bonus). Or see what happened in the past (knowledge gathering ritual).)

Tangent to the tangent: my favourite FATE power I've seen was in a pulp-themed version of the game, where there was a "Master of disguise" power. The way it worked: Once per session if you are not in a scene, declare that any character in the scene is actually you, in disguise, and has been all along.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-02-23, 10:48 AM
Tangent to the tangent: my favourite FATE power I've seen was in a pulp-themed version of the game, where there was a "Master of disguise" power. The way it worked: Once per session if you are not in a scene, declare that any character in the scene is actually you, in disguise, and has been all along.
Oh my god, that's my new favorite thing in RPGs.

ghbok
2022-02-24, 02:16 PM
they want some of the feeling of being a game-designer, of creating the mechanics that back up the cool idea in their head. In my experience, they're better suited to a more mechanical system where they can build the nitty-gritty details of their power.

You are right. I do want to be able to design sets of abilities that actually make sense and are well balanced, especially mechanics wise, but also fluff wise.

My ideal situation is that, even if the character's abilities were taken out of its original context & placed in e.g a story instead of a game, the abilities would still make sense and be acceptable by many people. I realize this can be highly variable, but having a system to work with helps a lot.

Stonehead
2022-02-25, 12:14 PM
You are right. I do want to be able to design sets of abilities that actually make sense and are well balanced, especially mechanics wise, but also fluff wise.

My ideal situation is that, even if the character's abilities were taken out of its original context & placed in e.g a story instead of a game, the abilities would still make sense and be acceptable by many people. I realize this can be highly variable, but having a system to work with helps a lot.

To that end, I think GURPS, HERO, and M&M seem like potential solutions. GURP's advantage is they go full-force on the generic part, putting effort into being able to model anything from cavemen to space ships. It's also fairly board-gamey, up to your group on whether or not that's a good thing.

I've read enough about HERO and M&M to know they do what you want, but people who've actually played them could do a much better job selling you on their unique features.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-02-25, 03:38 PM
I've read enough about HERO and M&M to know they do what you want, but people who've actually played them could do a much better job selling you on their unique features.
...Huh, I realize none of us M&M fans actually explained it. Whoops.

M&M runs on a pretty standard d20 engine. If you've played D&D/PF at all, it should feel pretty familiar; if you've played 3.PF, you'll spot a lot of shared traits and rules. It replaces hit points with "Toughness Saves," has basically no resource expenditure to keep track of, and all-in-all runs pretty fast and reliably. (Heck, it's the only system I've done much with where grappling is both useable and effective). It uses ability scores D&D-style, but by 3e they're pretty much just a legacy element-- you can give yourself +2 Agility, or you can give yourself +2 to Dodge saves, Acrobatics checks, and Stealth checks, and the results will be indistinguishable.

The core of the game is its power creation system, which is... lego gets used a lot as a metaphor, but I think k'nex (https://assets.fishersci.com/TFS-Assets/CCG/product-images/F109025~p.eps-650.jpg) works better. The term "power" specifically refers to the finished product, which is made up of some combination of effects and modifiers.

Effects are gross mechanical effects. "Damage" is an effect; so is "teleport" or "create." They give you new things you can do with your move and standard actions-- impose a status condition on this guy, create a solid barrier here, fly so many feet, etc. There are only a few dozen of them, and some are pretty niche. (I'm not sure I've ever built a character with a burrowing-based power, for example)
Modifiers are attached to effects to, well, modify them. They let you change an effect from melee to ranged, make it harder to see you using it, change the action required to activate it, limit the circumstances it can be used, and so on.


Let's say, for instance, that you want to create D&D's Fireball.
You start with the Damage effect, because the spell directly harms its targets.
You add the Increased Range modifier, because the fireball explodes some distance away from you.
You add the Area modifier, because the fireball hits everyone nearby.
Ta-da!

You can combine multiple effects in the same power, if you want. If we wanted to add an explosive element to the aforementioned fireball power, we'd start by building the explosion as its own thing:
Start with the Move Object effect--it's the basic element of telekinesis, and we're trying to force targets to move.
(The effect already works at range, so there's no need for Increased Range)
Add the Area modifier, so we'll hit everyone the fire does.
The Move Object effect is pretty versatile, which our explosion doesn't need to be, so we'll add the Limited Direction modifier. Now it can only push people away from the point of impact.
By default, Move Object is an ongoing effect--once you pick something up, you don't need to spend more actions to hold it up. We don't need it to do that if we're just knocking people back, so we can add the Reduced Duration modifier to cut its duration down to instant. Now it'll go off once and be done, just like an explosion.

Now we add the Linked modifier to both of the effects. This means that whenever one effect is used, the other is used in the same action, targeting the same spot and using all the same situational bonuses and penalties.

---------

The wonderful part of M&M is that there's little to no restriction on what sort of effects you can Link together. I could link Affliction and Mind Reading, for example, and create an effect that leaves a target dazed and confused as I rip memories out of them. Or Create and Damage to raise a castle wall with mounted machine guns. Once you get the hang of it, it's stupidly versatile. As part of my current insane homebrewing madness, I recreated almost every ability in Exalted 3e using M&M's power creation system (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ygpu6zonw1oknk3/Solar%20Charms%20in%20E%26E.docx?dl=0)-- and Exalted is a system with a huge numbers of weird noncombat/social abilities like "if you commit a faux pas at a party, make everyone think the words came from someone else" and "make it impossible for my underlings to do a specific thing while on duty."

Jay R
2022-02-26, 03:16 PM
As a player who loves Hero Systems, let me give you two warnings:

1. There's a fair amount of arithmetic involved, mostly during character creation. That doesn't bother me (I have a math-based Ph.D.) but it does bother some people. When I play or run the game, I've usually had to create character sheets for one or two other players.

[There are some power options, like draining powers, that require lots of arithmetic during the game. The simple solution is not to use them.]

2. This is not a system that uses little or no GM adjudication. There are ways to abuse the system. The last time I ran Champions, my introductory document included the following:

"I know most of the ways to try to build a character worth much more than the rules intend. If you come up with such a strategy, I will congratulate you on your cleverness and ruthlessly disallow it."
Having said that, at lower levels for Fantasy Hero, and with players who don't know the system well, this is probably not too big a problem.

Telok
2022-02-26, 05:40 PM
As a player who loves Hero Systems, let me give you two warnings:...

While I haven't checked the latest versions, the book I have has a chart for the most common power levels & mods. So there's generally no actual math beyond addition. There's also at least one official book of prebuilt powers and a whole forum of experts to ask.

The main book also has stop signs and hazard signs (literally, little road signs next to the powers) that mean you'll probably need to pre-clear characters using those abilities. I recall several "how not to" examples too, like collateral damage man who just has a massive point blank AoE blast with a self-size hole in the middle.

I'm sure M&M and GURPS have something similar. Just the basic "don't be a jerk" advice.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-02-26, 07:09 PM
I'm sure M&M and GURPS have something similar. Just the basic "don't be a jerk" advice.
I can confirm that M&M does. There are "under the hood" sidebars for a lot of problematic effects, both potentially overpowered ones (like Variable) and ones with a lot of wiggle room (like Transform). The Power Profiles book has even more, including a whole section on "plot-stopping powers" and how to handle them.

SimonMoon6
2022-02-28, 08:31 AM
Let me just put in a plug for my system of choice:

Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG.

To me, this is the (nearly) perfect superhero RPG system. Unlike the usual suspects (HERO/Champions, GURPS, or even M&M), the DC Heroes RPG is both simple and flexible.

Simplicity is a big factor here. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you want to give a character a standard superpower like projecting flames or stealing superpowers. The powers are already created; you don't have to build them up from things like "damaging attack, oh, plus it has range, and oh, better give it some ability to light stuff on fire, and oh, yeah, maybe this fire creates light, and, oh, um, what else does fire do?"

But everything can be modified by limitations or advantages.

And, let me emphasize again, the difficult meta-powers like stealing superpowers, neutralizing powers, copying powers, changing into animals, changing into objects, etc., those powers are already default ordinary powers in the game. You don't have to have a Champions-style pool of points to assign to the powers that you want to steal (which then takes half an hour for you to deal with every single time you use that power). You make one die roll and then you know what you've got. Simple.

But it's also flexible. Some game systems only handle certain power levels. GURPS is only good for the "ordinary person" power level. If you're playing Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, it's great. If you want to play Superman, it's not so great. Other superhero systems are okay at the "we're technically superheroes but barely" power level. But DC Heroes has no trouble with the power level of the pre-Crisis Superman who can juggle planets. It uses a logarithmic scale so huge power levels aren't crazy and you don't have to twist the system into strange contortions to deal with massive power levels.

DC Heroes can handle characters of any power level, with any kind of powers. Many of the powers in the game are based on powers that actual comic book characters have (unlike, say, Champions) because it was created in order to adapt comic book characters into a game. That was its priority, unlike other superhero games which emphasized creating game mechanics first and then wondering what kind of characters you can make as an afterthought.

It's not a perfect game. It has one or two weird rules that need house rules to deal with. But it doesn't have rules to limit the characters you can build like I hear M&M has. (Something like you can't be both fast and invulnerable (the way Superman is) because then you're tough to beat.)

But DCHRPG is long out of print, so that's an issue. And only the 2nd/3rd editions should be used (or the 2nd edition of Blood of Heroes... the same game minus the DC characters).

M&M does at least have the advantage of having seen how DCHRPG worked. M&M seems to have homaged (or outright copied) some of the better power concepts from DCH. So, if you can't get DCH, I guess M&M would be okay.

Anonymouswizard
2022-02-28, 09:34 AM
Yeah, M&M and HERO are basically the pinnacle of crunchy design-a-power systems. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but they'll output something that works for an orbital missile satellite, yoghurt golems, or a Robobee Swarm. M&M is probably slightly more user friendly, but that's at least partially due to being d20 based.

If you want to be designing abilities that will definitely make sense within the setting then you're looking for a well defined setting with a ruleset that reinforces it. The gold standard here is probably the various games in the Jenna Moran verse, of which both Nobilis and Glitch provide design-a-power mechanics, but I'm fairly certain that they're not what OP wants

Grod_The_Giant
2022-02-28, 10:28 AM
Mayfare's DC Heroes RPG
I've wanted to get my hands on a copy of that game for a long time, because I really only ever hear great things. But alas...


It's not a perfect game. It has one or two weird rules that need house rules to deal with. But it doesn't have rules to limit the characters you can build like I hear M&M has. (Something like you can't be both fast and invulnerable (the way Superman is) because then you're tough to beat.)
For the record, those trade-offs are how M&M balances itself. Rather than trying to work some sort of exponentially increasing costs thing, the rule is just "for a level X character, the sum of your dodge and toughness can't exceed 2X." If you're really good at both dodging and tanking (like Superman), then, well...you're a really high level character (like Superman). The level-based tradeoffs are what give the system its DCAU-type feel, and lets you put Batman and Superman up against the same sorts of enemies without everything falling apart. If you want to really emphasize that your hero is notably tough or agile or whatnot, you can use powers--that tends to be more interesting than just having high numbers on your sheet anyway.

(It also has exponential scaling for things like lifting capacity-- a character with 11 strength will only have a slight combat advantage against one with 10 strength, but they'll be able to carry literally twice as much weight. Which also helps with the Batman-verses-Superman thing)


In one campaign a few years ago I actually did play a Batman-style badass mortal in a party full of high-level supers. My friends included a former cop who could selectively turn laws of physics on and off and a Thor-type demigod with a magic spear; I had a utility belt, Batplane, and a small Variable (Human skills and abilities) power. I still kicked approximately all the ass.

Easy e
2022-03-01, 11:55 AM
Good luck to you. The only advise I have for you after years playing games and in life is that there is no system known to man that can not be broken. Based on this learning, I am not 100% certain that the premise of your request can be achieved, but I am interested in hearing how you get along with it.

Be prepared to step in when it gets broken and use the GM Adjudication method to resolve such situations.

That said Mutants and Masterminds would also be my "Go to" for your request.

ross
2022-03-20, 09:27 PM
ELEMENTAL CONTROL
Ranged • Power Rank • 3 Hero Points per rank
You can create and control one type of energy, matter, or phenomenon (called an element). Common elements include air, cold, earth and stone, electricity, fire, friction, garbage, gravity, heat, ice, light, magnetism, metal, plants, plasma, radiation, sand, sound, vibrations, water, weather, and wood. By manipulating this element, you can create effects that imitate other Powers at this Power’s rank, provided what you are doing makes comic book sense.

SHAPESHIFTING
Self • Power Rank • 2 Hero Points per rank
You can reshape your gross physical form however you like. You have a number of Hero Points equal to your Power rank that can be used to temporarily raise your physical Abilities (Agility, Might, and Toughness) and to buy Powers that represent things like claws, extra limbs, fins, gills, spines, tentacles, tough hide, wings, and so on. No Trait can have a rank that exceeds the game’s Trait Cap. For purposes of determining your Resolve, this Power’s effective rank equals your Shapeshifting rank plus the greatest of your Agility, Might, or Toughness ranks.

Omni Power - Quantum Control (broad): You can control matter and energy at the quantum level, and probably have some control over time and space as well.


As always, prowlers and paragons can do anything you can imagine.

Gnoman
2022-03-20, 11:34 PM
Maybe it would help if you grabbed some concrete suggestions from potential players of things you would want the system to be able to model, then we could build them in each system. That would give you some idea of how well the various systems will fit for you.

Eldan
2022-03-21, 04:19 AM
My question whenever someone says that is always: How does it deal with complicated drawbacks or requirements? Can it model something like making a deal with a spirit, where you gain limited powers for a set period of time, but in exchange, have to do a favor? How about taking on a restriction like a taboo for a day, in exchange for power? Say, you can not touch corpses. Or you can never cut your hair. Or you may not lie, or you must always be drunk, or the next time anyone asks you for any gift, you must give it. How about power that only works on the night of the full moon? Or when it's raining, or inside a library? How about gaining power from touching historical landmarks, or uncovering conspiracies or insulting authority figures? How about a power that changes depending on where you are, because you tap the local elemental spirits?

Because those are my favorite magic systems. Just selecting powers from a menu and always having them is boring, I like my magic mystical, arcane and obscurantist.

Kurt Kurageous
2022-03-21, 03:47 PM
I'm going to say a system you've never heard of that I enjoyed immensely.

It's called BASH (Basic Action Super Heroes). Everything thats been mentioned in this thread it does very well, including the limitations, weaknesses, etc.

It plays like a comic book. It's simple to pick up as a player. There's power levels, but no progression (unless the GM wants that). I looked at some of the systems mentioned (M&M) and just couldn't. I've run three campaigns of BASH and thoroughly enjoyed it.

YMMV

Stonehead
2022-03-22, 06:12 PM
My question whenever someone says that is always: How does it deal with complicated drawbacks or requirements? Can it model something like making a deal with a spirit, where you gain limited powers for a set period of time, but in exchange, have to do a favor? How about taking on a restriction like a taboo for a day, in exchange for power? Say, you can not touch corpses. Or you can never cut your hair. Or you may not lie, or you must always be drunk, or the next time anyone asks you for any gift, you must give it. How about power that only works on the night of the full moon? Or when it's raining, or inside a library? How about gaining power from touching historical landmarks, or uncovering conspiracies or insulting authority figures? How about a power that changes depending on where you are, because you tap the local elemental spirits?

Because those are my favorite magic systems. Just selecting powers from a menu and always having them is boring, I like my magic mystical, arcane and obscurantist.

If the question is "does the system allow complicated backlash effects?" then the answer for GURPS is definitely a yes. Between "temporary disadvantage" and "nuisance effect" let you model any disadvantage or debuff as a drawback to the ability. I imagine HERO and M&M are the same, but I admit I haven't played them.

If the question is "does the system ensure powers have fun, interesting drawbacks?" then the answer is a hard no by RAW. In GURPS Powers, there's some brief discussion about the possible sources of powers, but it would still ultimately come down to the DM creating the drawbacks, or deciding on a case by case basis which drawbacks are sufficient.

In my experience, point buy systems almost always require more work from players and dms to keep everything interesting.

Eldan
2022-03-23, 02:41 AM
I don't really want the system to require it. If a player enjoys it, sometimes it's fine if you have a character who just throws fire all day in different ways. But personally, and from a worldbuilding standpoint, I just like my magic complicated, and I want a system that can implement that. Hence me playing FATE and Unknown Armies as my go-to systems for magic.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-03-23, 09:34 AM
I don't really want the system to require it. If a player enjoys it, sometimes it's fine if you have a character who just throws fire all day in different ways. But personally, and from a worldbuilding standpoint, I just like my magic complicated, and I want a system that can implement that. Hence me playing FATE and Unknown Armies as my go-to systems for magic.
I was able to rebuild almost every one of Exalted 3e's Charms using M&M (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ffzoqhm5qmoavak/solar%20charms%20in%20e%26e.pdf?dl=0), as well as most of the 3.5e PHB (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?279503-D-amp-D-in-M-amp-M-a-new-approach-to-rebalancing-3-5-PF), if that's worth anything.