One of my players wants to be a Vampire.

[An Enemy Spy]

So I told two of my players to roll up temporary replacements for their characters who are currently enslaved after the party was TPKOed, and one of them wants to be a Tortle Vampire Cleric. He's going to be a level 9 character and Vampires in the Monster Manual have a Level Adjustment of +8. I don't want to tell him he can't be what he wants but I also don't want to tell him he'll have to be a level 1 character as even with Vampire powers that just seems pathetically weak.

How can he be a Vampire without being pathetically underleveled?

[InvisibleBison]

Since you're the DM, you can (and should) just change the LA for the template. The LA Assignment thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?532012-The-LA-assignment-thread-III-Now-in-HD!&p=22477494&viewfull=1#post22477494) has put vampire as being worth LA +3, if you remove the ability to create new vampires and vampire spawn. Depending on the power level of your campaign, you might want to go with +4 instead; the LA Assignment thread tends to be operate with an assumption of at least a moderate amount of optimization.

[FauxKnee]

The easiest solution is to fix the unplayable LA.

The playground's LA-adjusting thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825-The-LA-Assignment-Archive-V2-0) determined the vampire template (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22477494&postcount=564) is worth approximately +3*. In case you're not familiar with the thread's conventions, that means it has an LA of +3 with a problematic ability that the DM should remove, nerf, or control carefully. In this particular case, the troublesome ability is spawn creation. If you don't like that option, you can homebrew something for them with the "vampire flavor" with weaker crunch (so that you don't need such a ham-fisted LA to "balance" it.) You may find the vampire spawn racial class from Libris Mortis helpful for reference.

If your game insists on RAW over actual game balance, you may have to get more creative. There was some sort of consumable chunk of meat in either Ghostwalk, Libris Mortis, or the Arms and Equipment Guide that cause the consumer to become a vampire. By RAW, his character could be level 8 before consuming such a meal. He would then have an ECL of 16 so it would take him forever to level up again, but it is explicitly rules-legal and would allow him to play a viable version of his concept from the start. There are probably other options as well--the only other transformative PrC I can think of off-hand is the Shadowsun Ninja PrC from Tome of Battle. (That can't transform the PC into a vampire until later though, and it outright states that normally upon transforming they should become an NPC.)

[Rilem]

An LA of +3 or +4 at Level 9 is still pretty brutal, though. What about the old Savage Progression Template class (you can still find it online in places) and have them take a level or 2 of that to start with? Level 1 gets a minor blood drain ability, Con penalty, some bonus feats and spider climb, for example.

[Gruftzwerg]

IIRC there was a Half-Vampire template somewhere with only +2 or +3 LA. Maybe you can google it or someone else can point us to the source.

____________


Have you alternatively considered to build something vampire-like?
e.g.
a) a Vampiric Touch focused Duskblade (or gish build)
b) Unarmed Swordsage 1 /xxx /Shadow Sun Ninja 1 to get the Touch of the Shadow Sun ability which produces negative energy on first use and positive energy on second used. Deal dmg the first round and heal up the second round. And if you use those energies to heal (undead on the first uses, living creatures with the second uses), it becomes a free action. So either take the necropolitan template or get yourself maybe an undead familiar somehow (e.g 3 lvls Shadowdancer gives a shadow or dip into an arcane caster and take spellstiched familiar feat).

Add Ur-priest on top for the cleric stuff.

[Faily]

Even with a friendlier LA, it is still a tough one.

I'd ask him what specifically he wants from a Vampire-concept, and see what you can work with from there. (if he wants to be Castlevania's Alucard, importing the Dhampir race from Pathfinder might work)

Depending on your setting, a vampire might not work very well because he'll be attacked on sight or hunted? Undeads in general tend to be "kill on sight" in most settings, so also something to keep in mind.


My 2 cents: If there is just too much work to try to make it work, either mechanically or if it will mesh with the campaign and its world, just say No. It can suck to say no to a player sometimes, but sometimes it is also the best decision to maintain GM-sanity.

[Scots Dragon]

If it's a temporary replacement, just ignore the level adjustment in this case.

[Gruftzwerg]

Is there any non-template vampire?
I mean an undead (necropolitain) could try to polymorph into one, if we find one.

[Rilem]

I'd ask him what specifically he wants from a Vampire-concept, and see what you can work with from there. (if he wants to be Castlevania's Alucard, importing the Dhampir race from Pathfinder might work)


Or, if they're really stuck on Tortle, use class features to approximate Vampire stuff. An Ardent with Consumption, Death and Communication mantles? Cleric with Tomb-Tainted soul Feat and Deathbound/Domination Domains? (Hunger Domain gives a bite attack, also.)

As mentioned, it's a good idea to talk with the player and discover exactly what they like about the vampire idea, because it's generally easier to reverse-engineer the good vampire bits using existing classes/feats — and with 9 levels you have space to work with — than to try and shoehorn the LA stuff into the build.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is... Is the player wanting to play Dry Bowser (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fantendo/images/1/1d/DryBowserSmash3.png/)?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fantendo/images/1/1d/DryBowserSmash3.png/

[Zanos]

He can't. By RAW a vampire can't be lower than ECL 13, because creatures lower than level 5 who are spawned by vampires become generic vampire spawn, not templated vampires. Vampire Lords get an exception to this rule, but that's not desirable for other reasons.


An LA of +3 or +4 at Level 9 is still pretty brutal, though. What about the old Savage Progression Template class (you can still find it online in places) and have them take a level or 2 of that to start with? Level 1 gets a minor blood drain ability, Con penalty, some bonus feats and spider climb, for example.
I actually think vampire just doesn't work for players. Almost every ability it gets is going to create dysfunctions when played in a normal campaign. Even if you remove create spawn it still has at-will dominate monster, which is a 9th level spell and lasts for 12 days, at will wildshape into some pretty useful forms, DR 10 that will not be overcome by anything that isn't specifically hunting vampires, huge bonuses to a bunch of good skills, five free feats, +18 to ability scores, and undead immunities. And the vampire is basically unkillable as long as he dies semi-intelligently and can escape in gaseous form.

But it's the weaknesses, not the strengths, that make it unusable in most parties. Vampires are inherently Evil creatures as undead, and because they need to semi-permanently harm living things to eat. So you're already limited to Evil parties and perhaps some very tolerant non-Evil parties that have a 7th level cleric and a pile of diamond dust to reverse all the ability drain you're doing when you feed, and for some reason you've managed to convince said cleric that killing and raising isn't a better idea. You can't approach holy symbols or garlic, you can't cross running water, and you can't enter a building unless invited. Need to raid a wizard's tower or the lair of an illithid? Sorry buddy, that's private property, and you don't have an invitation. And the big one; if you're ever exposed to sunlight, you are dead in two rounds. There are things to compensate for that but they're usually either going to be expensive or require high level casting. Not being able to function during the daytime is going to require your party make special accommodations for you that are very inconvenient for most people.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...Or he could just have a terrible accident with a bag of glitter, while being obsessed with someone who has less personality than Ong from Shyamalan's The Last Airbender.

[Berenger]

If you are interested in homebrew, I made a LA +0 vampire.

Minimalist Vampire

Creature Type: Changes to Undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, skill points or feats. Change all current and future hit dice to 1d12, gain Darkvision 120 feet, gain Undead Immunities, lose Constitution score. Vampires as intelligent undead heal damage on their own just as living characters do, are disabled at 0 to -9 hit points and destroyed at -10 hit points (unless slain by sunlight or holy symbols, see below).

Fangs: Vampires gain a natural bite attack (1d4 Piercing Damage & Crit 19-20 for medium-sized base creatures) and Weapon Finesse (Bite), if beneficial.

Turn Resistance: Vampires, as free-willed undead, have +4 turn resistance.

Blood Hunger: Each night, a vampire needs to drink blood from the body of a living, sapient creature to sustain its unlife. Draining blood requires the victim to be willing, helpless or pinned in a grapple. A blood-drained victim takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage per round caused by the loss of blood and mystical life force. If the victim dies due to this damage, it rises as a new vampire during the next night unless the body is burned, beheaded or impaled. Each point of Constitution damage dealt to the victim instantly restores one lost hit point to the vampire.

If the vampire fails to drink blood for more than one day and one night, it takes penalties as if fatigued. After another night, it takes penalties as if exhausted. If it fails to drink blood during subsequent nights, it remains as if exhausted and gains one negative level for each additional night that passes. Should a vampire accumulate a sum of negative levels equal to the number of its hit dice, it enters a death-like torpor until it is fed with a pint of blood. The exhaustion and a single negative level is cured 1d6 rounds after consuming a pint of blood. Another negative level is cured each night, as long as the vampire is fed.

A vampire can abstain from feeding off people and avoid starvation by consuming blood preserves, the blood of animals or the blood of the deceased, but those weak surrogates taste unpleasantly bland, bitter or putrid. The vampire suffers a -1 morale penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws and skill checks during that night and gains no instant restoration of lost hit points.

Stake Vulnerability: A wooden stake can be driven through the heart of a pinned or helpless Vampire as a full-round action. This instantly paralyzes the Vampire until the stake is removed from its heart with another full-round action.

Sunlight Vulnerability: The merest sliver of sunlight deals 2d6 points of damage to a vampire. A vampire fully exposed to direct sunlight for 1 full round must make a Will save (DC 20). If the vampire succeeds on the saving throw, it takes 2d6 points of damage. If the vampire fails the saving throw or is reduced to 0 hit points by sunlight damage, it is consumed by fire and destroyed utterly.

Holy Symbol Vulnerability: A vampire takes a –2 penalty on melee attack rolls against a creature prominently wearing or brandishing a holy symbol. The symbol’s touch deals 1d4 points of holy damage to a vampire, and a vampire reduced to 0 hit points in this fashion is consumed by fire and destroyed utterly.

Level Adjustment: +0





Vampire Power (Feat)

Prerequisite: Minimalist Vampire, Character Level (variable, see below).

Benefit: You unlock three spells from the list below as at-will racial abilities. Your caster level equals your current character level. You gain a pool of 5 + Charisma modifier Blood Points and each activation of an ability costs one Blood Point per spell level. You regain one Blood Point per point of Constitution drained from a sentient being.

Restriction: You can't unlock a spell with a level higher than half your current character level [rounded down].

Special: This feat can be chosen multiple times. Each time, you may unlock three additional spells and your maximum number of Blood Points increases by 5 + Charisma modifier.


Level 1: Animal Messenger, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Command,Distract, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall (self and touched creatures only), Final Vision, Hypnotism, Jump (self only), Pass without Trace, Magic Fang, Message, Obscuring Mist, Summon Nature's Ally I (wolves only), Sleep.

Level 2: Enhance Ability (Strength, Dexterity and Charisma only), Enthrall, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, Speak with animals (rats, bats and wolves only), Spider Climb (self only), Summon Nature's Ally III (dire wolves only), Summon Swarm (rats and bats only).

Level 3: Arcane Sight, Displacement (self only), Emotion, Gaseous Form, Haste (self only), Greater Magic Fang.

Level 4: Air Walk, Armor of Darkness, Black Tentacles, Confusion, Dominate Person, Fear, Sending, Zone of Silence.

Level 5: Greater Command, Mind Probe, Nightmare, Overland Flight, Unhallow.





Blissful Bite (Feat)

Prerequisite: Minimalist Vampire

Benefit: You can make a bite attack against an opponent which immediately gets an attack of opportunity unless caught flat-footed. If the targets attack of oportunity hits you and deals damage, the attack automatically fails. If the attack succeeds, the target takes normal bite damage and must succeed on a Will Save (DC 10 + one-half your character level + your Charisma modifier) or be paralyzed for 1d6+1 rounds. Your victims perceive your bite as highly pleasurable and perhaps sexually arousing experience.

Special: This ability does not work on undead and creatures without nervous systems or discernible anatomies, such as oozes and plants.





Vampire Weakness (Flaw)

Effect: The vampire chooses one of the following drawbacks and gains either the Vampire Power feat or the Blissful Bite feat in return.

Special: This flaw may be taken up to three times. This decision must be made by the player upon the characters transformation into a vampire.


Garlic Allergy: The vampire must succeed on a Will save (DC 12) to feed off a victim that consumed a decent amount of garlic in the last 24 hours. Doing so entails a -1 morale penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws and skill check during that night.

Inviolate Sanctuary: The vampire cannot enter a privately owned residence unless invited in by a resident.

No Reflection: The vampire doesn't cast a reflection in mirrors and other reflective surfaces.

Running Water: The vampire cannot enter or cross running water on its own (but may be carried across).

Animal Enmity: The vampire suffers a -4 penalty to Handle Animal checks and the starting attitude of every animal except nocturnal predators is worsened by one step.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That Minimalist Vampire is worth +1. Necropolitan (you're Undead‚ +2 Turn Resistance‚ future HD don't become d12) is already at the very top of +0 and warrants an alternate cost. Here‚ you have +4 turn resistance‚ all d12s‚ a bite attack and a bonus feat. Sunlight Vulnerability doesn't balance that.

[Berenger]

That Minimalist Vampire is worth +1. Necropolitan (you're Undead‚ +2 Turn Resistance‚ future HD don't become d12) is already at the very top of +0 and warrants an alternate cost. Here‚ you have +4 turn resistance‚ all d12s‚ a bite attack and a bonus feat. Sunlight Vulnerability doesn't balance that.

Fair point, I don't think LA +1 would be unreasonable. I mostly settled on LA +0 instead of +1 because a) at my table, it wasn't used at character creation, but on existing point-buy-created characters (that invariably lost some investment into above-average Constitution scores) and b) it was originally intended for a modern d20 Urban Arcana campaign setting which required somewhat more discretion regarding killings, use of supernatural powers and feeding from humans than the darker corners of the average D&D world.

Still, LA +1 is much less of a problem than LA +3 or LA +8.

[ChudoJogurt]

I had a similar problem, and wrote up a few lesser vampire templates.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642914-3-x-Lesser-Monster-Templates-need-help

Some of them seem to be reasonable for LA+1,maybe that will help?

Also, there's a vampire savage progression, that allows one to get vampirism over eight levels, so your player can grab one or two levels of that, instead of the full template.
Its underpowered IMHO, but if you grab a Necropolitan and a level or two of that progression, you can be a decent vampire-like creature.

[Jervis]

So I told two of my players to roll up temporary replacements for their characters who are currently enslaved after the party was TPKOed, and one of them wants to be a Tortle Vampire Cleric. He's going to be a level 9 character and Vampires in the Monster Manual have a Level Adjustment of +8. I don't want to tell him he can't be what he wants but I also don't want to tell him he'll have to be a level 1 character as even with Vampire powers that just seems pathetically weak.

How can he be a Vampire without being pathetically underleveled?

I’ll get crucified for this but, assuming you’re ok with the power level being a bit high and janky, there are a few options. Pathfinder puts their vampire template at +2 CR, which is their equivalent of +2 LA. A bit under costed but honestly it’s not that insane compared to Pherenic, mineral warrior, or Feral. As others have said it’s been determined to be a fair LA +3 elsewhere on the site. For my part personally I treat acquired templates like magic items. Adding LA mid game just kinda sucks for everyone. Starting LA also sucks because they’ll just die again. Just be upfront that he’ll get fewer magical Doo dads if he takes it and figure out an appropriate amount to reduce his starting WBL by. Level 9 is a bit early for what vampire gives though IMO so you might want to adjust it.

Assuming a average starting WBL I’d dock him around 30k, roughly double the cost of getting Mineral Warrior which is almost as problematic. Remove things like create spawn to taste.

[Beni-Kujaku]

CR isn't LA. The +2 CR is simply copied from 3.5‚ and doesn't take into account potential dominated slaves. The official vampire was considered pretty strong for +3‚ and would probably be overwhelming any lower‚ except if all enemies carry anti-undead measures and no other party member has darkvision‚ forcing the party to only go adventuring during the day.

[Scots Dragon]

CR isn't LA.

It is in Pathfinder.

I personally reiterate what I said earlier. It's mentioned in the OP that these are temporary replacement characters, so they won't be the long term primary player characters anyway.

So long as they're temporary, I'd say let them go with it and ignore the level adjustment in this case.

[Fouredged Sword]

CR isn't LA. The +2 CR is simply copied from 3.5‚ and doesn't take into account potential dominated slaves. The official vampire was considered pretty strong for +3‚ and would probably be overwhelming any lower‚ except if all enemies carry anti-undead measures and no other party member has darkvision‚ forcing the party to only go adventuring during the day.

Pathfinder does away with LA entirely and just says "If you want to play a monster, pick something with CR = to the intended level of the party"

This has, well, it's own problems, but it works fairly well if you pay attention and don't let things get abused.

[Eldan]

I strongly suggest just making a list of all the powers you want from your vampire and building any character that gets all those powers, then reflavouring. If you want to be an undead monster turning into bats and wolves and ripping people apart? Necropolitan Shapeshift Druid. Mind controller? Beguiler. Draining blood? Some kind of necromancer eldritch knight build with natural weapons, probably.

I've just found that approach to work so much better than high LA templates.

[Troacctid]

I recommend using the vampire savage progression. It's taken one level at a time, allowing you to gain vampire abilities gradually so they don't immediately break the game. You can take as many or as few levels as you want. http://web.archive.org/web/20211115093428/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Alternatively, you could be a half-vampire, which is only +2 LA. It's basically a more PC-friendly version of the concept. You can easily make it more like a full vampire by having the player get all of the abilities from the list instead of choosing one; it's a little weak for +2 anyway, so a little buff shouldn't hurt.

[Eurus]

Pathfinder does away with LA entirely and just says "If you want to play a monster, pick something with CR = to the intended level of the party"

This has, well, it's own problems, but it works fairly well if you pay attention and don't let things get abused.

It's funny, because this is in theory exactly how CR is supposed to work. A Human Fighter 10 is, officially, CR 10. A party of four level 10 characters is EL 14, which matches up with the idea that a EL 14 encounter is supposed to be a serious threat -- in theory, that should be a 50-50 shot of TPK, or close to it.

...Mostly, it just serves as a really obvious example of how useless most of the CR rules really are. :smallamused:

[Troacctid]

It's funny, because this is in theory exactly how CR is supposed to work. A Human Fighter 10 is, officially, CR 10. A party of four level 10 characters is EL 14, which matches up with the idea that a EL 14 encounter is supposed to be a serious threat -- in theory, that should be a 50-50 shot of TPK, or close to it.

...Mostly, it just serves as a really obvious example of how useless most of the CR rules really are. :smallamused:
Some abilities have a huge impact on a player character's utility over the course of a campaign while having very little impact on an enemy's difficulty over the course of a single fight. The vampire template is like 50% abilities like that. There's no real CR difference between dominate at will and dominate once a day, but the difference for a PC is...substantial.

[Scots Dragon]

Some abilities have a huge impact on a player character's utility over the course of a campaign while having very little impact on an enemy's difficulty over the course of a single fight. The vampire template is like 50% abilities like that. There's no real CR difference between dominate at will and dominate once a day, but the difference for a PC is...substantial.

That really depends how you're running it. An at-will dominate effect that lasts for at least twelve days?

A prepared vampire big-bad-evil-guy can have a metric buttload of dominated thralls serving as cannon fodder to throw at the heroes. The heroes decide to go after the vampire's lair during the day, only for the entire local militia to prove to have been dominated by the vampire and their spawn.

[Troacctid]

That really depends how you're running it. An at-will dominate effect that lasts for at least twelve days?

A prepared vampire big-bad-evil-guy can have a metric buttload of dominated thralls serving as cannon fodder to throw at the heroes. The heroes decide to go after the vampire's lair during the day, only for the entire local militia to prove to have been dominated by the vampire and their spawn.
Yes, but then the dominated characters have their own CR. They're only rolled into the vampire's CR if they're dominated during the encounter itself.

[Jervis]

It's funny, because this is in theory exactly how CR is supposed to work. A Human Fighter 10 is, officially, CR 10. A party of four level 10 characters is EL 14, which matches up with the idea that a EL 14 encounter is supposed to be a serious threat -- in theory, that should be a 50-50 shot of TPK, or close to it.

...Mostly, it just serves as a really obvious example of how useless most of the CR rules really are. :smallamused:

A human fighter 10 being the same CR as a 10 headed hydra is a good example of this sort of thing

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A human fighter 10 being the same CR as a 10 headed hydra is a good example of this sort of thingBut hydras only have Int scores of *2*! Of course, the fighter needs an Int score of *3* so...

[Fouredged Sword]

It's funny, because this is in theory exactly how CR is supposed to work. A Human Fighter 10 is, officially, CR 10. A party of four level 10 characters is EL 14, which matches up with the idea that a EL 14 encounter is supposed to be a serious threat -- in theory, that should be a 50-50 shot of TPK, or close to it.

...Mostly, it just serves as a really obvious example of how useless most of the CR rules really are. :smallamused:

The DM is expected to ether soft pitch of Gygax. That is to say they are supposed to pitch a CR14 encounter at the players in a way they can prep for and thus punch above their weight class or just throw a CR 14 encounter at their players unexpectedly when they are just about to camp for the day and laugh at the resulting TPK.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

So I told two of my players to roll up temporary replacements for their characters who are currently enslaved after the party was TPKOed, and one of them wants to be a Tortle Vampire Cleric. He's going to be a level 9 character and Vampires in the Monster Manual have a Level Adjustment of +8. I don't want to tell him he can't be what he wants but I also don't want to tell him he'll have to be a level 1 character as even with Vampire powers that just seems pathetically weak.

How can he be a Vampire without being pathetically underleveled?
There's a way to play someone slowly turning into a Vampire. The trick is to use the Vampire Savage Progression (available here: https://web.archive.org/web/20200315192224/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a ), except that you advance it using classes like Legacy Champion and/or Uncanny Trickster so that you still get some sort of HP, BaB and Skill progression.

[Beni-Kujaku]

There's a way to play someone slowly turning into a Vampire. The trick is to use the Vampire Savage Progression (available here: https://web.archive.org/web/20200315192224/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a ), except that you advance it using classes like Legacy Champion and/or Uncanny Trickster so that you still get some sort of HP, BaB and Skill progression.

Oh! I like that