Armorer Artificer questions

[Keravath]

Hi All,

A couple of questions ...

1) The text for Arcane Armor does not say that it is magical. In addition, an armorer artificer can explicitly apply infusions to their arcane armor but infusions can't be applied to magic items. Both of these would indicate that arcane armor is not magical. As a result, arcane armor should continue to function in an anti-magic field even if infusions applied to it would not.

2) The gauntlets of the arcane armor can do 1d8 thunder damage.

"Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren’t holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit. A creature hit by the gauntlet has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the start of your next turn, as the armor magically emits a distracting pulse when the creature attacks someone else."

The suit of armor has only one pair of gauntlets.

The level 14 infusion Arcane Propulsion Armor says the following.

"Arcane Propulsion Armor

Prerequisite: 14th-level artificer
Item: A suit of armor (requires attunement)

The wearer of this armor gains these benefits:

- The wearer’s walking speed increases by 5 feet.
- The armor includes gauntlets, each of which is a magic melee weapon that can be wielded only when the hand is holding nothing. The wearer is proficient with the gauntlets, and each one deals 1d8 force damage on a hit and has the thrown property, with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. When thrown, the gauntlet detaches and flies at the attack’s target, then immediately returns to the wearer and reattaches.
- The armor can’t be removed against the wearer’s will.
- If the wearer is missing any limbs, the armor replaces those limbs—hands, arms, feet, legs, or similar appendages. The replacements function identically to the body parts they replace."

The gauntlets of arcane armor already do 1d8 thunder - the armorer can use intelligence for to hit and damage rolls. This infusion applied to the Armor causes them to do 1d8 force damage. These are two different sources of effects - one magical and one not.

Does the damage stack? Resulting in a hit with a gauntlet doing both d8 thunder+int mod and d8 force damage?

I can't see why the damage would not be additive. The wording of each feature appears to deal with the gauntlets of the suit of armor and there is only one set. The thunder gauntlets are not magical - it is an intrinsic property of the gauntlets to which the magical property of the infusion is being added.

On the other hand, I could see an initial reaction might be just to say no because the effects are worded independently but I am not sure that would actually be RAW since you can have items with multiple effects applied (a magic sword with poison applied for example).

Thoughts?

[PartyOfRogues]

Does the damage stack? Resulting in a hit with a gauntlet doing both d8 thunder+int mod and d8 force damage?
No, each feature is a separate melee weapon attack

[PhantomSoul]

1) The text for Arcane Armor does not say that it is magical. In addition, an armorer artificer can explicitly apply infusions to their arcane armor but infusions can't be applied to magic items. Both of these would indicate that arcane armor is not magical. As a result, arcane armor should continue to function in an anti-magic field even if infusions applied to it would not.


Correct (it even needed to be non-magical, because otherwise you couldn't add infusions to the armour, which would be absolutely terrible as an armorer!)

[Keravath]

No, each feature is a separate melee weapon attack

With the same melee weapon.

The text doesn't say each feature is a separate exclusive melee weapon attack.

If you have a longsword with poison applied does it lose the poison effect if Magic Weapon is cast on it?

Can you cast Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon on Thunder Gauntlets? The answer would appear to be yes since the gauntlets are explicitly a non-magical weapon. In both these cases, the effects would appear to stack.

(Ultimately, I think it will be a DM call but RAW, I'm not yet convinced it isn't an option).

[Greywander]

With the same melee weapon.

If you have a longsword with poison applied does it lose the poison effect if Magic Weapon is cast on it?
If you have a longsword with a magical effect that turns it into an axe that deals 1d10 damage, you can either use it as a longsword or an axe, but not both at the same time.

Would be nice if they stacked, but that would probably lock you out of the Enhanced Defense infusion, since they're both armor infusions, and would also lock you out of using magical armor (assuming that magical armor would only lock you out of infusing the armor slot, and not the other slots after 9th level).

On the other hand, it could still be a nice infusion for an infiltrator, giving you both a melee and ranged attack, as well as some extra speed. Guardian model doesn't really have a counterpart, unless you include being able to throw the arms.

[Keravath]

If you have a longsword with a magical effect that turns it into an axe that deals 1d10 damage, you can either use it as a longsword or an axe, but not both at the same time.

Would be nice if they stacked, but that would probably lock you out of the Enhanced Defense infusion, since they're both armor infusions, and would also lock you out of using magical armor (assuming that magical armor would only lock you out of infusing the armor slot, and not the other slots after 9th level).

On the other hand, it could still be a nice infusion for an infiltrator, giving you both a melee and ranged attack, as well as some extra speed. Guardian model doesn't really have a counterpart, unless you include being able to throw the arms.

Yep - I can see that interpretation too. :)

Armorer can always put enhanced defence on their shield if they like.

I'm not sure about using magic armor and having it count as only the center part of arcane armor. Possible but also open to interpretation.

Yes, it might be useful for an infiltrator but since the text doesn't appear to have the rider letting the gauntlets use int for attacks, the infiltrator would need to boost strength to use them. (maybe a belt of hill giant strength infusion?).

So, if a guardian used this infusion on their armor would this mean they could not use int for attack and damage with the gauntlets?

Nothing in the text states that the wearer has to choose which effect to employ though it is certainly a valid interpretation.

[Evaar]

No, the two damage types do not stack. The infusion is converting gauntlets into a weapon when they normally would not be. If they are already weapons, then the most reasonable interpretation is you can choose which version of the gauntlet-weapon you are using.

When a magic item adds damage to an existing weapon type, it specifies this is extra damage. See Flame Tongue: "While the sword is ablaze, it deals an extra 2d6 fire damage to any target it hits." This is to explicitly state this is additionally damage on top of the base sword damage. If the infusion was intended to do this, it would say "an extra 1d8 force damage" or it would specifically call out "if the infused armor is using the Arcane Armor's Thunder Gauntlets feature, the gauntlets deal an extra 1d8 force damage."

It lacks those clarifications, so the RAW is that you can either use the gauntlets as Thunder Gauntlets or with the infusion's weapon type - not both. Similar to how Mage Armor and Unarmored Defense don't stack, rather you have to choose one or the other to apply.

[Greywander]

I'm not sure about using magic armor and having it count as only the center part of arcane armor. Possible but also open to interpretation.
I made another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642885-Armorer-Artificer-Magic-Armor-and-Infusions) on this very subject a few days back. The rules aren't entirely clear, but to me the most sensible way to run it is that:

(a) After 9th level, magic armor only "takes up" the chestpiece slot, acting as that slot's "infusion". The other three slots can still be infused.

(b) Before 9th level (and after, if you wanted to), you can wear infused or magical boots and headgear under your armor, which extends to cover those items (alternatively, you wear them over the armor, allowing them to be removed from you e.g. if you get knocked out). Whether or not the armor's special weapon can be infused while wearing magic armor or while the armor itself is infused is unclear, but I'd probably allow it.

In other words, all the 9th level feature does is give you two free infusions, and the 9th level feature defines which slots those infusions can be applied to. It doesn't "allow" you to wear infused boots, because you could already do that.

The main reason I think it should be interpreted that way is because the Armorer, of all classes and subclasses, should not be the worst at wearing armor. Any other artificer (and non-artificers, too) can wear magic/infused boots and headgear (and gloves) with a magic/infused breastplate, so it makes sense that the Armorer should, too. Full plate, eh, but are we going to tell the fighter they can't wear magic boots or gloves or headgear with full plate?

[Silpharon]

I made another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642885-Armorer-Artificer-Magic-Armor-and-Infusions) on this very subject a few days back. The rules aren't entirely clear, but to me the most sensible way to run it is that...


Great summary, and I completely agree on your conclusions.

As for Arcane Propulsion Armor, let me add a little twist. The level 9 feature includes:


You learn how to use your artificer infusions to specially modify your Arcane Armor. That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor's special weapon.
The prerequisite for Enhanced Defense is:

A suit of armor or a shield
A whole "suit of armor"? Oh but that's not a problem right? They just mean "armor (the chest piece)".

Then the prerequisite for Arcane Propulsion Armor is:

A suit of armor
Uh does the same thing apply? The infusion says "the armor includes gauntlets", but my "armor's special weapon" is "the armor's gauntlets"... So does the infusion take two slots? Beats me!

I don't know how we got a round of errata out on TCE with no fixes to Armorer.

[Greywander]

It makes sense to me that the infusion takes up the chestpiece slot, and that's it. The gauntlets are part of the armor, so they are affected by the armor infusion. You can infuse your thunder gauntlets with a separate weapon infusion, but this won't affect the Propulsion Armor gauntlets, since the thunder gauntlets are their own weapon.

That said, the Propulsion Armor is a bit lackluster (and not just for the Armorer). I'd probably allow both the propulsion gauntlets and thunder gauntlets to benefit from a single Enhanced Weapon infusion, as well as use INT for the attacks. All you'd really be getting are the 5 foot speed bump and a thrown weapon that deals force damage instead of thunder (and doesn't give impose the debuff that the thunder gauntlets do).

On the other hand, if the Propulsion Armor gauntlets are meant to stack with the thunder gauntlets (i.e. you do both force and thunder damage, apply the debuff, and you can throw them), then that's a huge buff. Enough so that you might voluntarily forgo most magic armor. Though there's not really a reason to think that they would stack, apart from them both being gauntlets. It could just as easily be two completely different weapons that are built into the same gauntlets.

The Propulsion Armor is just... not good. It's like a cheap knock off of the Armorer's schtick for non-Armorers, and nothing more. You could make it available from 2nd level, and you probably still wouldn't see anyone using it. It simply doesn't make sense to delay it until 14th level when the effect is so piddly. And it's certainly not better than Enhanced Defense or a lot of magic armors.

Edit: It occurs to me that if they did stack, then the extra force damage would be comparable to the paladin's Improved Divine Smite. As such, delaying it until 14th level would make sense. But I'm pretty sure by RAW they don't stack.

[Keravath]

...

Edit: It occurs to me that if they did stack, then the extra force damage would be comparable to the paladin's Improved Divine Smite. As such, delaying it until 14th level would make sense. But I'm pretty sure by RAW they don't stack.

Yes. I don't really think combining them is much of an issue from a balance point of view since allowing the infusion to work with thunder gauntlets (which may not be RAW) really only adds the thrown property and 1d8 force damage. Improved divine smite affects every attack and adds a d8 radiant to each attack (and more depending on opponent). Both paladin and artificer are 1/2 casters - and paladin will always do significantly more damage from smites. It does become a significant bump in fighting ability at the cost of foregoing probably some cool magical armor by the time you are level 14+ - so it also has a significant trade off.

[stoutstien]

If you like the guardian mode aesthetic but the jumble of words bug you there is the master maker in Keith Baker's second 5e eberron book dread metrol

[Evaar]

If you like the guardian mode aesthetic but the jumble of words bug you there is the master maker in Keith Baker's second 5e eberron book dread metrol

Yeah, and I haven't played it but it looks pretty solid. More of a "Doomfist from Overwatch" than a "Dr. Doom or Iron Man from Marvel" kind of a character, but I like what he did. One thing Baker does with his subclasses that I appreciate is he seems to be aware that subclass-specific weapons need some feature to make them more attractive over time compared to whatever magic items the party will happen upon. So the Master Maker's fist increases in damage pretty substantially as you gain levels, like the Living Weapon Monk's unarmed strikes also continue to add damage via features the higher you go.

Honestly I think his subclasses on average are better designed than many of the official WotC ones.

[stoutstien]

Yeah, and I haven't played it but it looks pretty solid. More of a "Doomfist from Overwatch" than a "Dr. Doom or Iron Man from Marvel" kind of a character, but I like what he did. One thing Baker does with his subclasses that I appreciate is he seems to be aware that subclass-specific weapons need some feature to make them more attractive over time compared to whatever magic items the party will happen upon. So the Master Maker's fist increases in damage pretty substantially as you gain levels, like the Living Weapon Monk's unarmed strikes also continue to add damage via features the higher you go.

Honestly I think his subclasses on average are better designed than many of the official WotC ones.

They're both better and simultaneously a little mechanically weaker so it's easier to persuade DMs to allow them. I don't know if it is an intentional design decision on his part or in happy little accident but either way it's nice.

[Evaar]

They're both better and simultaneously a little mechanically weaker so it's easier to persuade DMs to allow them. I don't know if it is an intentional design decision on his part or in happy little accident but either way it's nice.

Yeah they're certainly not gamebreaking. A lot of them just do the thing that you'd expect them to be able to do, and they do it reasonably well. Given how frequently WotC designs subclasses that gesture vaguely in the direction of a particular fantasy archetype or playstyle, but whose mechanics fail to actually enable that archetype or playstyle, it's nice that these actually do what they say on the tin.

[stoutstien]

Yeah they're certainly not gamebreaking. A lot of them just do the thing that you'd expect them to be able to do, and they do it reasonably well. Given how frequently WotC designs subclasses that gesture vaguely in the direction of a particular fantasy archetype or playstyle, but whose mechanics fail to actually enable that archetype or playstyle, it's nice that these actually do what they say on the tin.

Aye. Even If you don't particularly like his setting the fact that you can feel and sense the passion oozing out of everything he puts out is missing from a lot of content.