whats a good multiclass for rogue

[oogaboogagoblin]

its at lvl 7 but i want to reach 9 in rogue (not necessary). I want more options in combat specifically but also in utility

[RogueJK]

Depends on what exactly you're after, what your current Rogue subclass is, what your stats are, and what your playstyle is (melee/ranged, frequent scout, party Face, etc.). Knowing those important pieces will allow us to provide better advice.


But speaking generally:

Wizard can be a good combo for Rogue (especially if you have a decent INT), and gets you a bunch of added utility through your cantrips and spells. Bladesinger in particular pairs nicely with a melee Rogue.

Fighter eventually gets you Extra Attack for another chance at landing your Sneak Attack on each of your turns if you miss with your first attack, along with a Fighting Style and Action Surge. For subclass, Battle Master's maneuvers will greatly expand your combat options, and a melee Rogue picking up the Riposte maneuver gets you an opportunity for off-turn Sneak Attacks (one of the only ways for a Rogue to get that), which can double your Sneak Attack output in each round. Or something like Samurai could be useful if you're wanting additional ways to generate Advantage, or Eldritch Knight could get you some added defensive spells and utility cantrips.

Ranger is somewhat similar to Fighter with its access to Extra Attack and Fighting Style, but gets some added utility from its WIS-based spells instead of Action Surge. Gloomstalker can be extra nice on a sneaky/stealthy Rogue. Or Swarmkeeper could be good for many Rogues, adding damage or forced movement to your attacks, and getting you some cantrip utility.


So Fighter/Ranger/Wizard are the big three multiclass options for a traditional Rogue. However, if your character is a high CHA Swashbuckler Rogue, for example, then something like a Sorcerer or Warlock multiclass becomes more viable. Or if you're a STR-based Rogue then Barbarian could be a good multiclass. Or a high WIS Rogue might benefit from a a dip into Stars Druid or several different flavors of Cleric.

There are too many variables. We'll need more info.

[Gilead26]

Depends a bit on your subclass/ stats. For example Wizard (especially Bladesinger or Divination) is a great multiclass for Arcane Trickster.

No one ever went broke taking a fighter dip for a fighting style/action surge either.

[Psyren]

I want more options in combat specifically

How do you typically fight? What would you like to do better?


but also in utility

What utility does your group need, and what do you currently do?

[KillingTime]

Trickster Cleric?

[Keravath]

Depending on your rogue archetype - blade pact warlock can also be a good choice.

Three levels gets you a +1 pact weapon that can be whatever you want and can never be taken away from you since you can summon it whenever you like. You also pick up a couple of invocations (Mask of Many Faces - casting Disguise Self at will - can be amazing for infiltration type rogues). Devils sight is also great since without it you will always have disadvantage on perception checks that rely on sight in the dark (assuming you are a race with darkvision).

If you go to level 5 - you get two attacks with your pact weapon which gives extra chances to land sneak attack. You also have two short rest third level slots. You can use darkness+devils sight to obtain advantage (and enable sneak attack) on attack rolls.

It synergizes really well with an Arcane Trickster rogue since you get the short rest spell slots to complement the trickster ones and all your slots can cast any of your spells known. Choosing hexblade gives you the shield spell (works well if you have first level slots from another source) as well as access to shields and medium armor (Serpent scale armor from Candlekeep Mysteries is medium armor without a limit to dex that can be added which works well for a rogue with medium armor proficiencies).

Other popular options are ...

Gloomstalker Ranger (for advantage and invisibility in darkness when other creatures are using darkvision to try and see you) - along with fighting style and some spells (pass without trace can really help a stealthy rogue be more stealthy :) ). Extra attack on the first round which can work well with assassin rogues.

Fighter - extra attack at 5 - maneuvers as a battlemaster, fighting style

Wizard - works pretty well in enhancing the spell casting of Arcane Trickster rogues.

[Damon_Tor]

Three levels of armorer artificer gets you shield proficiency, a great ranged weapon you can use with one hand (or no hands), advantage on stealth checks, disadvantage on opposed enemy perception checks (yes, the two stack. Disadvantage gives them -5 to their passive perception)

[Aalbatr0ss]

Three levels of armorer artificer gets you shield proficiency, a great ranged weapon you can use with one hand (or no hands), advantage on stealth checks, disadvantage on opposed enemy perception checks (yes, the two stack. Disadvantage gives them -5 to their passive perception)

Where is this disadvantage coming from?

[RogueJK]

Where is this disadvantage coming from?

The first thing that comes to mind is using an Infusion to replicate a Cloak of Elvenkind, although that requires a Level 6+ Artificer, not a Level 3.

There's no outright class ability of an Armorer specifically or an Artificer in general that would cause all enemies to have Disadvantage on Perception checks...

[Damon_Tor]

Where is this disadvantage coming from?


The first thing that comes to mind is using an Infusion to replicate a Cloak of Elvenkind, although that requires a Level 6+ Artificer, not a Level 3.

There's no outright class ability of an Armorer specifically or an Artificer in general that would cause all enemies to have Disadvantage on Perception checks...

Oops, sorry, yeah that was coming from the Cloak of Elvenkind infusion, I misremembered the level requirement.

[da newt]

Clerics are very front loaded and have some nice simple cantrips/spells that can really help round out a guy. A couple levels of twilight for example can be really nice.

Barbarian can be fun to really up your SA chances and tankyness.

Bard can be fun.

A couple levels of Druid ca be fun.

Seriously, you can make any MC work with Rogue, it just depends on your stats and what you are looking to add.

[Ganryu]

Barbarian much better than it looks. It has a lot of synergy beyond what you think. Some of the rogue features work better with Barbarian features than Barbarian features work with Barbarian features.
1 level gets you Unarmored Defense.... which is better on you than the Barb. I recommend stopping here to optimize sneak attack, but something at every level til 5. This with shield prof I'd great. Ac of 22 on a rogue
Rage is... actually not as good as it is on barb. The resistances is nice. You won't get extra damage from rage though.
2 levels get you reckless attack for permanent advantage. Danger sense is great with evasion. Combine with Roguish action to quarter all damage from an attack.
3 levels get you bear resistance.
4 levels for Asi.
5 levels for extra attack to recoup damage lost on sneak attack levels, and extra movement.

[Frogreaver]

Stay rogue till 11. Reliable talent is amazing.

After that pick wizard, warlock or Battlemaster (Tasha manuevers help skills)

If adventure day is short then barbarian is a strong combat option if you have stat req met.

[Yakmala]

A one level dip in Knowledge Cleric is great for Rogues. Medium armor, shields, guidance cantrip, emergency healing and you get to pick up two additional knowledge skills with expertise.

[Odessa333]

As others have said, it depends on your stats and playstyle. Clerics are front loaded giving a lot of benefits if you qualify. Artificer works with nearly everyone, giving access to magic items and utility. Barbarian works really ell for a melee focus. Bard (especially lore) works well for a skill monkey/reliable talent (I once had a rogue with reliable talent skilled in everything, it as amazing). Fighter and action surge is a classic for everyone as well. I've never done wizard as others have said here, but it could work with utility and invisibility spells. Rogue's are flexible, so it's up to your style.

[Gignere]

Surprised no one recommended war wizard. Rogue’s biggest weakness is failing con/wis saves this gives you a +4 to save and int to initiative. Of course this is contingent on having at least a 13 int.

[Leon]

Ranger and Rogue are always a good match

[Aalbatr0ss]

Oops, sorry, yeah that was coming from the Cloak of Elvenkind infusion, I misremembered the level requirement.

It's still a good multiclass. I'm considering it myself

[Pex]

For durability there's barbarian (bear totem). Resistance from rage stacks with Uncanny Dodge since it's a different named thing and Uncanny Dodge is half damage, not resistance. As a bear totem its rage resistances stacks with Evasion for those unlucky times you fail the Dex save. It's a different named thing and through Evasion it's half-damage, not resistance. Being a barbarian you have Advantage on Dex saves.

[tokek]

Ranger and Rogue are always a good match

Absolutely. With the Tasha's changes the Ranger is now front-loaded with goodies that Rogues would love to have. A small dip into Ranger can make a Rogue a stronger Rogue than those levels in Rogue!

All levels - a D10 hit dice. That's not the absolute best but its better than most of your multi-class options and its better than Rogue.

Level 1

Additional Ranger skill proficiency
Martial Weapons - yes you can sneak attack with a Heavy Crossbow and you should
Shield proficiency - for rapier wielding rogues and makes dart/dagger throwing a more defensive ranged option
Deft Explorer - another Expertise plus 2 languages. Languages are sweet on infiltration/deception rogues
Favored Foe - additional attack damage that does not touch the action economy so your BA is still free to do Rogue stuff

The overall package is very good. The damage increase is better than the equivalent increment of Sneak Attack. The defensive boost is nice. The skills increases are a trade-off with delaying Reliable by one level.

The other levels are good but I'm not so sure they are worth delaying Reliable Talent for unless the balance of your game justifies it.

Level 2

Spellcasting: take a long look at Zephyr Strike - in my opinion the most Rogue-friendly 1st level spell in the game
Fighting Style: Archery is great for ranged rogue, duelling for melee rogues. Blind fighting can be nice but its situational by design.


Level 3

Pick your flavour here. Gloomstalker is a rogue's dream but don't overlook the pet classes as they give you a companion you can throw into melee to activate your sneak attack. Infiltrator / deception rogues might look at Fey Wanderer.

Level 4 - ASI/Feat just like every other class. You are either hungry for this or not but its the same for every multi-class

Level 5 - multi-attack. Its not as stellar on a Rogue as it is on other classes because you still only get one sneak attack

Second level spells. Pass Without Trace is incredible combined with stealth expertise. (Its not nearly as awesome on casters with mediocre skills, I mean it seems great but if you can't reliably beat the passive perception its still risky to use. Rogues can reliably beat the passive of most monsters in the game with this.) If Stealth is your most crucial skill then its worth delaying Reliable Talent to get this spell, the +10 is better than rolling at least 10.

[CTurbo]

its at lvl 7 but i want to reach 9 in rogue (not necessary). I want more options in combat specifically but also in utility

Every class can be a good multiclass option for Rogues. Please give us more info specifically subclass, stats, and playstyle.


Going with no information at all, 3-5 levels Fighter or Ranger are safe choices.

[Pildion]

its at lvl 7 but i want to reach 9 in rogue (not necessary). I want more options in combat specifically but also in utility

For Utility I find Arcana Cleric is a very good Rogue dip. If your Wis is 13+ you get 5 cantrips, 2 of which can be from wizard and Healing Word and Bless. You get all this with 1 level dip.
If your Int is high enough, then Wizard is good choice, though I would go 2 levels for the schools. War, Div, Bladesinger all come to mind.
If your Cha is higher then Hexblade makes a great dip, 2 or 3 levels to pick up a couple invocations and 2 short rest spell slots.

[JellyPooga]

Ranger
Absolutely agree here. Even if you want to keep it simple, going Hunter Ranger (phb) to level 3 for Horde Breaker can offer the Rogue some much wanted crowd control in conjunction with the spellcasting Ranger offers, as well as giving the Rogue an additional non-bonus action attack (and therefore an additional chance to land Sneak Attack) without having to take a full 5 level multiclass for Extra Attack.

Another very solid multiclass for Rogue, if you have the Strength for it, is Barbarian. A ton of synergy;
- If you've Expertise in Athletics, then the Advantage on Str ability checks offered by Rage makes you a solid grappler, even if you're Str is relatively low.
- Reckless Attack is an obvious way to generate Advantage on attacks if required for Sneak Attack and the cost is mitigated by Cunning Action granting you a measure of protection with enhanced mobility.
- Rage damage resistance stacks with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion (the latter won't occur very frequently without Bear Totem), making you very hard to kill.
- Danger Sense + Evasion means you don't need to worry about friendly-Fireball.
- Martial Weapon proficiency gives you access to the Whip. With the Rage damage bonus, your average damage is the same as a non-Rage'd Longsword, you get to add Sneak Attack and use a shield or grapple with your off-hand and you have Reach. With advantage on Str checks and Expertise in Athletics, you can manipulate terrain like huge boulders or tables that others cannot and combined with your incredible durability, you can control a huge swathe of a melee with a humble whip.

...and this is all in a 2-lvl dip.

[Petelo4f]

Gloomstalker 5/Scout Rogue 15 is an incredibly good archer (also good in melee, but really this is a ranged build).

Similarly (Bear Totem) Barbarian 5/Rogue 15 is better than it looks. The trick with this is that Sneak Attack requires Finesse Weapons......but you MAY use Dex with Finesse Weapons, you can still use strength. Meaning you can stack your Rage Benefits on top of Sneak attack. So, you use a rapier with your strength and rage so you can add your sneak attack damage to your rage damage, which is rather nice, and allows you to be a more tanky Barbarian since you can have a shield equipped. In this build Dex is a tertiary stat, So you want at least a 16 in Str, 14 in Dex, and 14+ in Con.

[Keravath]

Gloomstalker 5/Scout Rogue 15 is an incredibly good archer (also good in melee, but really this is a ranged build).

Similarly (Bear Totem) Barbarian 5/Rogue 15 is better than it looks. The trick with this is that Sneak Attack requires Finesse Weapons......but you MAY use Dex with Finesse Weapons, you can still use strength. Meaning you can stack your Rage Benefits on top of Sneak attack. So, you use a rapier with your strength and rage so you can add your sneak attack damage to your rage damage, which is rather nice, and allows you to be a more tanky Barbarian since you can have a shield equipped. In this build Dex is a tertiary stat, So you want at least a 16 in Str, 14 in Dex, and 14+ in Con.

A bit off topic for the OP but this can work really nicely with a Mountain Dwarf - using point buy start with 17 14 17 8 10 8 - then bump both str and con to 18 at level 4 barbarian. Wield a rapier and shield in melee and attack using str - works with all the barbarian tricks - and you guarantee sneak attack on any round you use reckless attack - rage makes the rogue a lot more durable in melee (bear totem works pretty well here). The speed bump at barbarian level 5 compensates for the slower dwarf to start with. With a shield, at level 4 wearing no armor, the AC is 18 already (only half-plate will be better) which is pretty decent. This can also pair well with the shield master feat (depending on how it is run at your table). Expertise in athletics and high str also leave options for grappling if the character wants to go that way.

[oogaboogagoblin]

thanks for all the replies! a lot of people are asking what i want from the multiclass and what my character is like so here goes: i chose the edgy option from tashas (the characters not edgy at all the features just looked cool) but my dms lenient enough to probably let me change it, all of my stats are pretty solid with my best stats being dex (20) char (19) and int (15) the rest are 11-14ish except for strength which is 9. the character is basically an all-rounder handling most stealth and social situations, but lacks a bit of personality. the combat style is pretty cut and dry, I go in melee or range when i have to (occasionally riding on the centaur paladin) and spam sneak attack. thats not entirely my fault because the combat encounters are all very basic, but i still feel like i can do more. my basic problem with rogue is my basic problem with a lot of the martial classes i guess, monotony. the most viable option in combat is to go in and spam sneak attack, occasionally hide or help other players, and do the few encounter-specific options, and then out of combat other than stealth and charisma based things, the character doesn't have much utility either. I don't really want an op build but i would like something solid. some cool options would be attacks that arent just a normal attack but with extra damage, buff spells for other players, and environment changing abilities would be really nice.

[JLandan]

thanks for all the replies! a lot of people are asking what i want from the multiclass and what my character is like so here goes: i chose the edgy option from tashas (the characters not edgy at all the features just looked cool) but my dms lenient enough to probably let me change it, all of my stats are pretty solid with my best stats being dex (20) char (19) and int (15) the rest are 11-14ish except for strength which is 9. the character is basically an all-rounder handling most stealth and social situations, but lacks a bit of personality. the combat style is pretty cut and dry, I go in melee or range when i have to (occasionally riding on the centaur paladin) and spam sneak attack. thats not entirely my fault because the combat encounters are all very basic, but i still feel like i can do more. my basic problem with rogue is my basic problem with a lot of the martial classes i guess, monotony. the most viable option in combat is to go in and spam sneak attack, occasionally hide or help other players, and do the few encounter-specific options, and then out of combat other than stealth and charisma based things, the character doesn't have much utility either. I don't really want an op build but i would like something solid. some cool options would be attacks that arent just a normal attack but with extra damage, buff spells for other players, and environment changing abilities would be really nice.

So after Dex, Cha is your big gun. Going with that, Cha driven classes would be the best choices. Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock. Some will say also Paladin, but with a 9 Str and plenty of combat capability from Rogue, the others will provide better options for what you're looking for.

Bard... excellent utility, healing, buffing, etc. Not so much on damage boost, unless you go in deep enough for an archetype. In which case I would recommend Collage of Swords. Great combat boosts.

Sorcerer... spellcasting that can provide some utility, some direct damage, some combat boost. Great options for MC with Rogue. Invisibility anyone? Bloodline is very important. For something dark and rogue-ish maybe Shadow. For something cleric-ish and a much wider spell list maybe Divine Soul.

Warlock... There are so many options between all the patrons and all the pact boons, you can basically do what you like. Combat-wise, Hexblade is good for combat, expanded spells, Hexblade's curse; Hex Warrior won't help with Cha for attacks because your Dex is better anyway, but the medium armor and shields along with martial weapons may help out. Almost any other patron would be fine too, depending on your and your PC's personality. Boon-wise, Pact of the Chain can be great for a Rogue, 'cause it's always good to have a distraction for attacking, a helper for skill checks, a spy for scouting, and a look-out for thieving.

[RogueJK]

i chose the edgy option from tashas

Which "edgy option"?

Phantom?


So after Dex, Cha is your big gun. Going with that, Cha driven classes would be the best choices.

I agree that Hexblade Warlock or Shadow/Divine Soul/Aberrant Mind Sorcerer would be your best bets.


Some will say also Paladin, but with a 9 Str and plenty of combat capability from Rogue, the others will provide better options for what you're looking for.

9 STR doesn't qualify for Paladin multiclass anyway... That requires a minimum of 13 STR.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

thanks for all the replies! a lot of people are asking what i want from the multiclass and what my character is like so here goes: i chose the edgy option from tashas (the characters not edgy at all the features just looked cool) but my dms lenient enough to probably let me change it, all of my stats are pretty solid with my best stats being dex (20) char (19) and int (15) the rest are 11-14ish except for strength which is 9. the character is basically an all-rounder handling most stealth and social situations, but lacks a bit of personality. the combat style is pretty cut and dry, I go in melee or range when i have to (occasionally riding on the centaur paladin) and spam sneak attack. thats not entirely my fault because the combat encounters are all very basic, but i still feel like i can do more. my basic problem with rogue is my basic problem with a lot of the martial classes i guess, monotony. the most viable option in combat is to go in and spam sneak attack, occasionally hide or help other players, and do the few encounter-specific options, and then out of combat other than stealth and charisma based things, the character doesn't have much utility either. I don't really want an op build but i would like something solid. some cool options would be attacks that arent just a normal attack but with extra damage, buff spells for other players, and environment changing abilities would be really nice.

Given that 2 of your next 3 rogue levels are ASIs and your Dex is already maxed I wonder how much of what you want could be achieved through feats as part of the plan. This way you could take a minimum caster dip and not lose out on your Rogue progression too much.
I'd be thinking about 2 of the 3 of Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, or Magic Initiate. Magic Initiate is a good way to get Find Familiar (for advantage) + Booming Blade (which meets your criteria for extra damage as you are melee often). The other 2 give you spells that you can cast with spell slots as well, so if you took Bless as your Fey Touched option, as well as 1 level in a spellcasting class you could cast that several times per day. You mention buffing other players, and Bless is a really strong option there, which stays relevent for the whole game. Good luck.

[Telwar]

I agree that you should go to at least 11 in Rogue, since you get an ASI at 10 and Reliable Talent at 11. Being able to roll a 1 and say you got a 23 on a skill check is great fun.

Maybe use that ASI for Telekinetic (Cha) to max out your Charisma and get a bonus action to move people around; yes, it competes with Cunning Action, but think of it like adding another tool.

After 11, Rogue-12 for another ASI is probably good, but Warlock or Sorcerer are good options as already stated.

[Frogreaver]

thanks for all the replies! a lot of people are asking what i want from the multiclass and what my character is like so here goes: i chose the edgy option from tashas (the characters not edgy at all the features just looked cool) but my dms lenient enough to probably let me change it, all of my stats are pretty solid with my best stats being dex (20) char (19) and int (15) the rest are 11-14ish except for strength which is 9. the character is basically an all-rounder handling most stealth and social situations, but lacks a bit of personality. the combat style is pretty cut and dry, I go in melee or range when i have to (occasionally riding on the centaur paladin) and spam sneak attack. thats not entirely my fault because the combat encounters are all very basic, but i still feel like i can do more. my basic problem with rogue is my basic problem with a lot of the martial classes i guess, monotony. the most viable option in combat is to go in and spam sneak attack, occasionally hide or help other players, and do the few encounter-specific options, and then out of combat other than stealth and charisma based things, the character doesn't have much utility either. I don't really want an op build but i would like something solid. some cool options would be attacks that arent just a normal attack but with extra damage, buff spells for other players, and environment changing abilities would be really nice.

IMO. You won't be able to solve your stated problem with multiclassing. If you aren't excited about the things you can do with stealth, persuasion, deception and intimidation with your high charisma and expertise then the only thing that might excite you is high level spells. The problem with that is you aren't going to get high level spells any time soon with multiclassing. It's even worse when it comes to combat. What you'll find is that most of the spells you can get access to quickly are rarely going to be more effective than your sneak attack, leaving you sneak attacking most of the time anyways. I mean in 5 more levels you would finally get spells that are generally stronger than your sneak attack is, but that's a long time to wait.

I honestly wonder if maybe the underling issue you are facing might stem more from a short adventuring day. If there's not alot of combat rounds between long rests, Paladins are stupid strong, as are any full casters in your party. Meaning they get to trounce you at combat and still have plenty of spell slots left over to outshine you in out of combat stuff. It's hard for a rogue to feel awesome beside such characters in a short adventuring day.

[CTurbo]

1 level of Draconic Sorcerer gets you better than light armor AC and Booming Blade. Great stuff on a Rogue. You can snag some utility spells in there too.

Hexblade would be good too as mentioned above. You could even grab 1 level of Sorcerer and still take some Hexblade levels.

Swords Bard is a good call out too. Tons of skills and Expertise combined with Jack of All Trades would have you good at everything. Plus great Bard spells. The fighting features are just icing on the cake. You could even TWF if you wanted.

Fighter is still a great choice. Battlemaster gets you Riposte which opens up Sneak Attack off turn with your reaction among other great maneuvers.

Ranger is also still a great option. Gloom Stalker is great as is Hunter in small dips of 3-5 levels. Archery is a good Fighting Style to add to your repertoire.

[RingoBongo]

I've played quite few different rogue multi classes. If you want it to still feel like a rogue and less another class, it's true -- at least generally in my experience. I really enjoyed my dwarf strength rogue x / barbarian 1-2 in the past. I am currently enjoying a phantom rogue x / cleric 1 (twilight or peace) that shoots from range.

You can give a lot of flavor to a rogue with just one or 2 level dip. I personally don't like going in more than that and definitely not to level 5 for extra attack or something -- feels less like a rogue and more like whatever else you mix in. And if you want to reach higher level rogue features at 9 and 24 and enjoy them for a while, no way would I go more than a 2 level dip.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

1 level of Draconic Sorcerer gets you better than light armor AC and Booming Blade. Great stuff on a Rogue. You can snag some utility spells in there too.

Hexblade would be good too as mentioned above. You could even grab 1 level of Sorcerer and still take some Hexblade levels.

Swords Bard is a good call out too. Tons of skills and Expertise combined with Jack of All Trades would have you good at everything. Plus great Bard spells. The fighting features are just icing on the cake. You could even TWF if you wanted.

Fighter is still a great choice. Battlemaster gets you Riposte which opens up Sneak Attack off turn with your reaction among other great maneuvers.

Ranger is also still a great option. Gloom Stalker is great as is Hunter in small dips of 3-5 levels. Archery is a good Fighting Style to add to your repertoire.

Seconding the part about getting Sneak Attack off turn. That's a good way to make combat more interactive and pretty much double your damage output when it works. Brace maneuver is another BM option that helps. It's probably worth googling ways to get reaction attacks, but other one that comes to mind is Sentinel + your opponent attacks a creature other than you. This can be made reliable (though check with your DM on this one) by casting mirror image, which you could get depending on caster dip.
I do think whatever you do in terms of multi-classing needs to be limited and/ or offset in terms of combat effectiveness when you use the attack action (or cantrip Booming Blade). If you spend significant levels to get other things and sneak attack lags without anything to compensate you're likely to feel behind.

[animorte]

its at lvl 7 but i want to reach 9 in rogue (not necessary). I want more options in combat specifically but also in utility

Haven't read anything else on the post as of yet, but my immediate hot take is definitely go Warlock with Invocations: Repelling Blast (or Grasp of Hadar) and Relentless Hex. This allows you to knock things around the battlefield and Bonus Action teleport to the target of your Hex within 30 ft. I can't express enough how fun this is!

Also going with Pact of the Chain allows you to easily get advantage through your familiar's positioning for sneak attack damage.

[Frogreaver]

Haven't read anything else on the post as of yet, but my immediate hot take is definitely go Warlock with Invocations: Repelling Blast (or Grasp of Hadar) and Relentless Hex. This allows you to knock things around the battlefield and Bonus Action teleport to the target of your Hex within 30 ft. I can't express enough how fun this is!

Also going with Pact of the Chain allows you to easily get advantage through your familiar's positioning for sneak attack damage.

Warlock is an interesting idea. You could use EB+AB to totally replace sneak attack as your damage source.

[Keravath]

Warlock is an interesting idea. You could use EB+AB to totally replace sneak attack as your damage source.

In that case, you might as well almost just play a warlock. Sneak attack is pretty central to a rogue (though skills are also an important element).

Anyway, the main reason I'd go for a couple of levels of warlock on a rogue is devils sight. Darkvision just doesn't cut it if a rogue wants to notice traps, secret doors, hidden panels etc. Devils sight lets the rogue see as if everything is brightly lit in pitch darkness. This avoids the disadvantage on perception checks depending on sight that darkvision gets. A section of corridor floor that is an infinity pool of acid might look just like the rest of the polished floor in black and white darkvision while the trap might be obvious when viewed with devils sight. On the other hand if your DM just treats Darkvision like Devils Sight and doesn't impose the penalties then it isn't a big deal.

Warlock also has some good synergy with an arcane trickster rogue since you get a few more spells and some short rest spell slots and some other abilities.

[JellyPooga]

In that case, you might as well almost just play a warlock. Sneak attack is pretty central to a rogue (though skills are also an important element).Heh. Sneak Attack is just there so the Rogue can sort of keep up with other classes in the damage department. Opinions vary, of course, but SA is the least of a Rogue abilities; it's a ribbon feature...no, that's unfair; it's their "Cantrip" option that too often distracts from the Rogues true function.

Think of it this way. If you gave full Sneak Attack progression to the Druid or Sorcerer, would they undergo a significant change of play style? Or would the Druid still be controlling the battlefield and summoning allies and the Sorcerer still be doing what Sorcerers do best? Sure, it'd give those Classes a significant weapon damage buff, but they'd still primarily be spellslingers.

No, if you want to deal damage you don't play a (primary) Rogue. Yes, the Assassin and Swashbuckler get more milage out of it than most, but even they have a large focus in other arenas than dealing damage.

Take a good long look at the Rogue and its subclasses, past the Sneak Attack...What do you see? Personally, I see Skills (Expertise, Reliable Talent), Speed (Cunning Action) and Resilience (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Slippery Mind). These are the defining traits of a Rogue and while they"re not entirely unique to the Rogue alone, the particular combination of traits is and it makes them (in combat) a battlefield manipulator. Any Rogue player pop-up sniping or just swinging for Sneak Attack is missing out on the core of their options just as much as any Wizard sitting in back spamming Firebolt is.

[Spartan_MD]

Barbarian much better than it looks. It has a lot of synergy beyond what you think. Some of the rogue features work better with Barbarian features than Barbarian features work with Barbarian features.
1 level gets you Unarmored Defense.... which is better on you than the Barb. I recommend stopping here to optimize sneak attack, but something at every level til 5. This with shield prof I'd great. Ac of 22 on a rogue
Rage is... actually not as good as it is on barb. The resistances is nice. You won't get extra damage from rage though..
You should if you’re using a melee weapon with Strength such as a short sword or rapier

[elyktsorb]

I find that 2-4 levels of Druid fits well for a Rogue. Wildshape is such a useful scouting tool, and if your using optional rules, it also gets you an on the fly familiar.

2 is usually just for Wildshape and the Subclass, but a 3rd level gets you Pass Without Trace, which is so broken on a Rogue, especially with Wildshape.

Your subclass will likely be Land, just for additional spell gains, but if you do go to 3rd level druid you can nab some really neat utility spells depending on your land type.

Coast is Mirror Image and Misty Step, good defensive options
Desert is Blur and Silence, good defensive options
Forest gives you Invisibility and makes it so you never have to have Pass Without Trace prepared.

Spore can be neat if you can reliably activate symbiotic entity before fights. As then you get an added 1d6 necro to all melee attacks (if you keep that 8 temp hp alive that is, but Rogues tend to be good at avoiding enemies) and that means that your sneak attack damage progression isn't halted.

Going to 4th lvl is purely just to nab the ASI

I will say, it does sound more like you want to play a spellcaster with a 2-4 level dip in Rogue instead though. You won't get many buffs at low levels, or the ability to cast them that often, and terrain stuff usually requires a decent DC to back it up otherwise it doesn't mean much.

[SociopathFriend]

Anything that can net you temp hp is just awesome.

I recently went Rogue Mastermind / Fighter Samurai in Anvernus and I have no regrets about that decision.

Even if it's only 5 hp- you can Uncanny Dodge any Attack to effectively double it. In a single battle that could end up being as much as 30 extra hp!

The next biggest source of hp angst is Dex Saves from spells and wouldn't you know it- Rogues get a perk for that too.

Any Class with ready access to halfing damage can definitely benefit from a good temp hp combination.

[Miele]

Well, sneak attack is a non factor. As long as an enemy is already engaged in combat with someone else, you benefit from it and this happens most of the times.

I play an Arcane Trickster and plan to get 2, maybe 3 levels in Wizard sometimes, but I'm still considering Artificer for a change.

AT rogue and Warlock with your Cha would be a no brainer for me: Mask of many faces at will? Devil's Sight? Many good picks, even ignoring the standard Eldritch Blast build, to not lose the rogue feeling.

[KorvinStarmast]

A one level dip in Knowledge Cleric is great for Rogues. Medium armor, shields, guidance cantrip, emergency healing and you get to pick up two additional knowledge skills with expertise. Shadowmonked!
Absolutely agree here. Even if you want to keep it simple, going Hunter Ranger (phb) to level 3 for Horde Breaker can offer the Rogue some much wanted crowd control in conjunction with the spellcasting Ranger offers, as well as giving the Rogue an additional non-bonus action attack (and therefore an additional chance to land Sneak Attack) without having to take a full 5 level multiclass for Extra Attack. We had a rogue 3(Scout) / Ranger 5(Hunter) in my brother's game who was very good. (And he took the sharpshooter feat...which can make for some interesting damage spikes when it hits.)


all of my stats are pretty solid with my best stats being dex (20) char (19) and int (15) the rest are 11-14ish except for strength which is 9.
Then Fighter and Barbarian are out.

the character is basically an all-rounder handling most stealth and social situations, but lacks a bit of personality.
Multiclassing won't help you with that.

the combat style is pretty cut and dry{snip} but i still feel like i can do more.
What Sub Class of Rogue Are You?

my basic problem with rogue is my basic problem with a lot of the martial classes i guess, monotony. the most viable option in combat is to go in and spam sneak attack, occasionally hide or help other players, and do the few encounter-specific options, and then out of combat other than stealth and charisma based things, the character doesn't have much utility either. Not seeing the problem here, TBH. But what you need, I suspect, is Bard Levels.

I don't really want an op build but i would like something solid. some cool options would be attacks that arent just a normal attack but with extra damage, buff spells for other players, and environment changing abilities would be really nice. "I want everything and I want it NOW!"
Go with Bard. You can debuff enemies (Tasha's Hideous Laughter) you can buff friends (Bardic Inspiration) and if you go Lore bard you can do Cutting Words to debuff some enemy attacks. Spells like Hold Person are nice. At level 5 take Slow. Environment changing spells? If you have a 13 wisdom, perhaps take Druid and run with it. At level 2 you can turn into various kinds of animals and not be bored.

Sneak Attack {snip} it's their "Cantrip" option that too often distracts from the Rogues true function. No True Rogue puts raisins in his porridge.


Take a good long look at the Rogue and its subclasses, past the Sneak Attack...What do you see? Personally, I see Skills (Expertise, Reliable Talent), Speed (Cunning Action) and Resilience (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Slippery Mind). These are the defining traits of a Rogue and while they"re not entirely unique to the Rogue alone, the particular combination of traits is and it makes them (in combat) a battlefield manipulator. Any Rogue player pop-up sniping or just swinging for Sneak Attack is missing out on the core of their options just as much as any Wizard sitting in back spamming Firebolt is. But he's bored of that, I guess.
(I admit to being confused)

[Keravath]

Heh. Sneak Attack is just there so the Rogue can sort of keep up with other classes in the damage department. Opinions vary, of course, but SA is the least of a Rogue abilities; it's a ribbon feature...no, that's unfair; it's their "Cantrip" option that too often distracts from the Rogues true function.

Think of it this way. If you gave full Sneak Attack progression to the Druid or Sorcerer, would they undergo a significant change of play style? Or would the Druid still be controlling the battlefield and summoning allies and the Sorcerer still be doing what Sorcerers do best? Sure, it'd give those Classes a significant weapon damage buff, but they'd still primarily be spellslingers.

No, if you want to deal damage you don't play a (primary) Rogue. Yes, the Assassin and Swashbuckler get more milage out of it than most, but even they have a large focus in other arenas than dealing damage.

Take a good long look at the Rogue and its subclasses, past the Sneak Attack...What do you see? Personally, I see Skills (Expertise, Reliable Talent), Speed (Cunning Action) and Resilience (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Slippery Mind). These are the defining traits of a Rogue and while they"re not entirely unique to the Rogue alone, the particular combination of traits is and it makes them (in combat) a battlefield manipulator. Any Rogue player pop-up sniping or just swinging for Sneak Attack is missing out on the core of their options just as much as any Wizard sitting in back spamming Firebolt is.

I beg to differ :). Rogues have a great deal to offer in the other pillars of the game. Their skills are impressive, especially reliable talent. However, take away sneak attack and their contribution to the combat pillar basically vanishes. A single attack for d8+stat damage is negligible outside of tier 1.

A rogue who isn't maximizing their use of sneak attack through whatever means possible (usually obtaining advantage so that their odds of hitting increase and sneak attack is guaranteed) is missing out. All the "defining traits" you list above are defensive - Uncanny dodge, Cunning Action, Evasion, Slippery Mind - they make the rogue more resilient. However, I don't see any way in which it makes the rogue a "battlefield manipulator". None of these abilities allows the rogue to influence the behavior of other creatures on the field. They could run out and make themselves a target but with their typically lower AC (no medium armor and no shield) and d8 hit points with a typically modest con - running in to be a victim is more likely to result in them requiring the aid of someone with healing than to provide any benefit to the party.

On the other hand, a tactical rogue, getting advantage, landing sneak attack reliably, focusing on the biggest threats, running in to deliver a potion or help a team mate when needed is providing a lot more to the party.

I really don't see how a rogue is a "battlefield manipulator" .. some rogue archetypes have some useful abilities but nothing like a wizard, sorcerer or bard in terms of battlefield control.

Finally, with the exception of expertise in thieves tools, a bard, especially a lore bard, does the skills as well or better than a rogue while also being a full caster.

So, no, I would not class sneak attack as a ribbon ability for a rogue, I think it is central to the contribution of rogues to any combat situation.

[JellyPooga]

I beg to differ :).

So, no, I would not class sneak attack as a ribbon ability for a rogue, I think it is central to the contribution of rogues to any combat situation.

I did correct myself, upgrading my opinion from Ribbon to Cantrip :smallwink: But I do stick by that. Does it make Sneak Attack useless? Of course not. It can be a powerful tool and any Rogue worth their salt is going to be able to leverage its use to great effect. I contend, however, that it's certainly not central to, let alone the be-all-end-all of Rogue combat (and no, without Sneak Attack, the Rogue would not be dealing d8+stat chip damage).

You don't see how the Rogue is a Battlefield Manipulator? Allow me to expand.

Those defensive features you so readily dismiss are exactly what makes the Rogue a Battlefield Manipulator. As they say, "a good defence is the best offence" (or is it the other way around :smallconfused:):

- Uncanny Dodge, alone, means the Rogues d8 HD gives them more effective HP than a Fighter/Paladin/Ranger with equal Con. This is not dependent on the Rogue being attacked by "one big hit" enemies either; d10 HD gives a character +1HP per level over d8, but Uncanny Dodge gives the Rogue +1HP per turn if they're only getting hit for 2hp damage, a figure that only rises with the lethality of the foe. Even if the Rogue is mobbed or subjected to multiple attacks (a common argument against this), he will still have more HP than a Fighter, who has no better defence in that regard (all other things being equal).

- Rogues are arguably the single most SAD Class in the game (at least when it comes to combat) given that they only need Dex and Con, while every other Class needs both of those plus their primary attribute (whether that be Str for melee/armour or Int/Wis/Cha for spellcasting and class features). That means that any given Rogue is more likely to have not only higher Dex but also higher Con than any other character, not less. A Rogue with "typically modest Con" has chosen it so as to focus elsewhere, not out of any necessity. Low-Con Rogues are such a common point that gets brought up and the only evidence in its favour is "tradition" and "theme", which is to say, no argument at all. With high Dex comes high AC. Yes, the Rogue is only proficient in light armour, but they've also got the best Dex in the game. The difference between Full-plate and Studded Leather when you have 20 Dex is a single point of AC (plus over a thousand GP and the weight of a halfling). It's hardly a damning weakness.

- Evasion means the Rogue is able to make themselves a homing beacon, drawing enemies in (and surviving; see above) to smaller AoE's for friendly artillery to get the most out of their spells. With a majority of AoE effects being Dex based saves, Evasion means the Rogue is safe to draw enemy attention this way. This is absolutely a method of manipulating what enemies do. Can they just move away from you? Sure, they could. Or, if they're being intelligently played, they're going to focus fire the obvious target; which is what you've planned for. Does it mean the Rogue is likely to need assistance from healers later? Yes, but better the Rogue with their efficient HP than the Wizard or Fighter with their inefficient HP. Don't forget that HP and HD are literally the only resource a Rogue has to spend...and they're good at it!

- Cunning Action means the Rogue is able to be where they need to be at the opportune moment; whether that means putting on some extra pace, disengaging from an enemy that is tying them up or utilising Stealth to avoid attention until the right time. That's what this feature actually does. It's not about running away, skirmishing or getting pop-up Sneak Attacks, albeit that it can be used for those things; it's about being where and when you need to be. Need to be stood next to the spellslinger in back? Rogue got you covered. Need to put yourself in the middle of a group of enemies so you can draw their attention? Yup, you can do that too. Need to not be being attacked right now so you can do *the important thing* (pull the level, steal the macguffin, free the princess, etc.)? Yeah, that's what Cunning Action is for.

So. The Rogue has comparable AC, better HP and can be where they need to be to do whatever it is they need to do. What can they do with this?

- Well, one thing they can do is have Expertise in Athletics. "But Rogues aren't good grapplers because they don't get Extra Attack" I expect is the argument forming in your mind right now. Wrong. Rogues are better grapplers than anyone. Why? Because Cunning Action lets them actually use the grapple to their advantage. A Barbarian can grapple someone and shove them prone or get an attack in in one turn, sure. A Rogue can Grapple someone and put them where you need them to be. That halved speed when you're dragging a grappled target? Rogue says "come with me" and uses Cunning Action to Dash. What's going to be more valuable; running up grappling someone and attacking them OR running up, grappling someone and then dragging their sorry butt-cheeks into the most compromising position possible? This is a team game and the Rogue is a team player (yes, you heard me, the 5e Rogue is not the "lone-wolf" of previous editions).

- Grapples aren't the only thing you can do with Athletics; you can Shove. Again, I'll ask what's more valuable? Attacking a foe OR Shoving them prone for your allies who can deal some real damage? It's well established that Sneak Attack, while relatively competitive, lags behind the DPR of good damage dealers, so a Rogue setting up their buddies, the Paladin and the PAM/GWM Fighter, for example, to do their thing is contributing far greater value. Whether that "set-up" is pulling a selected (perhaps even protected) foe into their range without compromising the parties own defensive position, or literally just putting that foe on the ground, the Rogue is well placed to do it. And if it goes wrong? Well, the Rogue is tough enough to take the heat.

- Grapples and Shoves aren't the only options aside from attacking in combat either. Disarm is an (optional rule) option for anyone with a decent attack modifier, regardless of your weapon size or DPR. Manipulating terrain features, like tables, light sources, doors and traps can also change the tide of battle by creating cover, giving or taking away dis/advantage and manipulating lines of attack, not to mention any chip damage such things might cause from e.g. a falling bookcase or hot coals from a brazier...but only if you're in the right place at the right time (guess what Rogues are good at?).

- At later levels Reliable Talent makes the use of skills, or more accurately Ability Checks, in combat a sure thing. Yes, this (as well as Expertise) can apply to Athletics with Grapples and Shoves, but also to things like Perception to spot hidden creatures and features, Sleight of Hand or use of Thieves Tools for manipulating objects, Athletics/Acrobatics for, uh, athletic and acrobatic endeavours (running, jumping, balancing, climbing trees) and so forth. Not to mention any number of rolls that a GM might call for.

I haven't even mentioned the Rogue Archetypes and the additional options they provide. Here's some highlights;
- Thief's Fast Hands makes use of equipment and terrain even more efficient.
- Mastermind offers the Help action from 30ft as a Bonus Action; another "set up your friend" option.
- Swashbucklers Panache makes themselves the target (it's a shame Rogue are so squishy, amiright?)
- Don't get me started on the shenanigans an Arcane Trickster can pull with MHL and spellcasting.

A Rogue making an actual attack roll with the intent of dealing damage...has simply run out of ideas!

Other Classes have features that can replicate some of this, yes; Monks can be a homing beacon and utilise speed to be where they need to be, Bards have Expertise for use of skills, Barbarians are tough enough to hold the line and are great at grappling, but none of them combine it all in one package.