Improving Golems

[Max Caysey]

So, basically I am looking into how to improve golems. Not in terms of being a DM, just advancing them, but as a player. In short how and what can I do to improve golems? Also, what might be some good golems to use?

The setup is, that I'm a crazy wizard, who employs golems as guards, protecting my tower complex. I'm thinking Golem, Shadesteel, Greater, og possibly Runic Guardians. Any suggestions here would be great, but my main concern is whether it is possible to improve them somehow through spells or items primerilly, but other ways would be interesting as well!

Cheers!

[King of Nowhere]

Not sure if you're asking for homebrew golems, or published non-core golems, or ways to get those golems as players.

well, regarding published golems, the shadesteel is probably the strongest, because of its negative energy attack; it's fairly weak otherwise, though. Aside from that, I can't really recommend many published golems; golems that are just a pile of hp, like most published golems, are normally not worth the effort.

in my setting I make plenty of use of homebrew golems. Since my setting has guns, the easier way I had to make golems more fierce was to strap cannons on them. Slow to reload, can basically only be used once per combat, but deals a huge amount of damage and lands fairly often.
Else, since you specifically mentioned protection, I have a golem model with a bodyguard ability; basically it's an iron golem with a tower shield, programmed to fight in tandem with humanoid allies. You stay near it, the golem gives you cover.
I also made golems with a sort of spellcasting mimicry ability; basically you cast a spell at the golem, and the golem memorizes it; it can then replicate the stored spell a number of times per day. There are restrictions on how many spells you can imprint on the golem and how much it can cast, and to avoid abuses-

[Max Caysey]

Not sure if you're asking for homebrew golems, or published non-core golems, or ways to get those golems as players.

well, regarding published golems, the shadesteel is probably the strongest, because of its negative energy attack; it's fairly weak otherwise, though. Aside from that, I can't really recommend many published golems; golems that are just a pile of hp, like most published golems, are normally not worth the effort.

in my setting I make plenty of use of homebrew golems. Since my setting has guns, the easier way I had to make golems more fierce was to strap cannons on them. Slow to reload, can basically only be used once per combat, but deals a huge amount of damage and lands fairly often.
Else, since you specifically mentioned protection, I have a golem model with a bodyguard ability; basically it's an iron golem with a tower shield, programmed to fight in tandem with humanoid allies. You stay near it, the golem gives you cover.
I also made golems with a sort of spellcasting mimicry ability; basically you cast a spell at the golem, and the golem memorizes it; it can then replicate the stored spell a number of times per day. There are restrictions on how many spells you can imprint on the golem and how much it can cast, and to avoid abuses-

Sorry for being unprecise. I was doing this as a learning/optimization exercise. Thus meaning that I want to use RAW legal golems from the official published material including Dungeon and Dragon magazines. My questions are how do I improve their stats and abilities beyond their write-ups? Are there any spells or items I might be able to cast on or give to a golem to improve them? Are there any build methods that might add a template, or something like that? Possibly a feat or something completely different.

My setup was an attempt at setting the stage. This wizard type figure is trying to improve his golems as much as possible - can it be done and if so what?

[Zanos]

RAW you can create golems with more hit dice. See the "advancement" entry in the golems statblock for the caps and size tiers.


Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golem’s market price minus the cost of the special materials required.

You'd follow all the normal rules for HD advancement. It's just ludicrously expensive.

There are also some feats in Dragon #327 for adding additional features to golems. Rudimentary Intelligence was the best one IIRC, granting feats and skillpoints for its HD.

[Max Caysey]

RAW you can create golems with more hit dice. See the "advancement" entry in the golems statblock for the caps and size tiers.



You'd follow all the normal rules for HD advancement. It's just ludicrously expensive.

There are also some feats in Dragon #327 for adding additional features to golems. Rudimentary Intelligence was the best one IIRC, granting feats and skillpoints for its HD.

Cool, thanks! That was basically what I was looking for!

Just so I understand this correctly... by RAW if someone could cast wish as a supernatural ability (Dweomerkeeper) you could wish for a golem with maximum HD? In case of the Shadesteel golem that would be HD 54? I assume golems being magic items in that regard? Also, if someone did this, could one add the rudimentary intelligence as part of that? It seems to be like a construction thing, just like masterwork or dwarvencrafted is?

[Anthrowhale]

This is minor but also low cost: you can easily add some light armor to golems. Leather, Masterwork Studded Leather, or Mithril Chain imposes no penalty, even if the golem is nonproficient.

[Rilem]

Cool, thanks! That was basically what I was looking for!
I assume golems being magic items in that regard?

They are not magic items but creatures, and a conventional wish can’t create creatures.

[rel]

You can always gear them up;
Fit them with weapons and armour, dip them in poison, give them some magic items.

Or tool up the rooms they guard;
Put inconvenient effects (like fire in the iron golem room) or annoying architecture (low ceilings so the golem can easily hit the flying wizard with its giant flyswatter)

[Harrow]

Does it have to be golems specifically, or would any construct do? I think there are some interesting things you can do for effigies or homonculi.

[King of Nowhere]

You can always gear them up;
Fit them with weapons and armour, dip them in poison, give them some magic items.



Right. Not sure about item slots on golems by raw, but give them a magical armor and a ring of protection, they become a lot more durable

[Max Caysey]

They are not magic items but creatures, and a conventional wish can’t create creatures.

Under construction it says: “Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item.”

And: “ The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description.”

So, a golem seem very much to be a magic item… so I would argue that wish can indeed create golems…


Does it have to be golems specifically, or would any construct do? I think there are some interesting things you can do for effigies or homonculi.

Well no, they just have to be effective and durable!

[Rilem]

It they were magic items, the text would read “any other sort of magic items”. They are constructs and in 3.5 constructs are creatures.

A wish could conceivably still create one, but under the more open-ended, riskier use of the spell. (I’d imagine a potential mishap like Crystal in OOTS.)

For a really fancy, legal golem I’d suggest taking the leadership feat, get a warforged follower and pretend it’s the wizard’s creation.

[Max Caysey]

It they were magic items, the text would read “any other sort of magic items”. They are constructs and in 3.5 constructs are creatures.

A wish could conceivably still create one, but under the more open-ended, riskier use of the spell. (I’d imagine a potential mishap like Crystal in OOTS.)

For a really fancy, legal golem I’d suggest taking the leadership feat, get a warforged follower and pretend it’s the wizard’s creation.

Well they are also magic items because that’s what the text says…

But you could make any magic item in the shape of a golem, disjoin the magic and use wish to duplicate the binding ritual… if one would not allow it as a regular magic item. So i guess you would need two wishes instead of one…

Yeah having one warforged cohort is not going to cut it… for this exercise.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon #327 includes such options for Construct creation as Advanced Binding, Extra Arms, and Rudimentary Intelligence

#302 have the Glyph Guardian template

Effigy and Half-Golem templates allow a lot of options...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One of golems' biggest weaknesses is that they're mindless and they rely almost completely on stupidly bashing things to death. Do some body-swapping with some loyal intelligent minions (with class levels) with high ranks in things like Knowledge (Strategy & Tactics), equip them with magic items out the wazoo (including flight items), and have them fight together in cohesive units like adventuring parties do, preferably with plenty of time and space to set up the battlefield to their advantage. Basically, turn them into Tucker's Golems.

[edit] Also, golems are stupidly-expensive and are basically one-use items, since a number of them go berserk by the end of a fight and are VERY difficult to repair even if they don't. So giving them intelligence via body-swapping makes them far less likely to be destroyed or go perma-nuts.

[ViperMagnum357]

I second Dragon #327: adding Intelligence, and thus feats, skill points, and being able to follow complex instructions while still being absolutely loyal make a golem much more effective. Getting a save against a rod of construct control is just gravy. The other 2 options are also great-removing the chance of going berserk allows you to use otherwise worthless golem types, and extra arms is obviously a big help for a melee bruiser (most types of golem besides Shadesteel.)

If you are okay with licensed material, the best way to upgrade a construct is to apply the Sacred Guardian template from the revised Bestiary of Krynn. You need to be a cleric to do it, but the costs are minimal compared to the benefits. The construct gains Intelligence or +2 to existing, +4 Str/Dex/Wis/Cha/natural AC, gains extra hitpoints and slam damage as a size larger, and then the two big ones: fast healing 5, and you get to pick a domain you have access to, granting it a special attack and special quality. The attack stuff ranges from Sneak Attack as a Rogue of its HD, to adding a weapon quality to its melee attacks, SLAs, to a simple damage bonus. SQ available include subtypes, turn/command/rebuke as a cleric-undead/plant/animal, evasion, extra immunities, the list goes on. Of particular note, you can give a golem the Air subtype, which by RAW gives it a natural fly speed.

[Max Caysey]

Dragon #327 includes such options for Construct creation as Advanced Binding, Extra Arms, and Rudimentary Intelligence

#302 have the Glyph Guardian template

Effigy and Half-Golem templates allow a lot of options...

Yeah, I was thinking about using Rudimentary Intelligence at least for sure... That Glyph Guardian template is super nice... using that for sure also.

Questions:
1) When giving a golem intelligence, thus allowing for feats and skill points. Could I give the golem vow of poverty? Might that be worth while?

2) When calculating saves and base attack bonus for golems above HD 20, do I use the epic progresson rules (+1 to save and attack at every other level) or do I simply multiple the the total HD with 0.333 for save and 0.75 for base attack? There is a huge difference between the results of the two different ways...

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, I was thinking about using Rudimentary Intelligence at least for sure... That Glyph Guardian template is super nice... using that for sure also.

Questions:
1) When giving a golem intelligence, thus allowing for feats and skill points. Could I give the golem vow of poverty? Might that be worth while?

2) When calculating saves and base attack bonus for golems above HD 20, do I use the epic progresson rules (+1 to save and attack at every other level) or do I simply multiple the the total HD with 0.333 for save and 0.75 for base attack? There is a huge difference between the results of the two different ways...

1) Theoretically yes, but the golem would have to be good (most are neutral), you wouldn't be able to loot the bodies as much (golem must donate a share), and you risk it picking up vow of nonviolence and vow of peace.

2) Keep with the pre epic pattern for racial hd, unfortunately.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Consider taking Loyalty's Reward, from Kingdoms of Kalamar, to name yourself the golems' leader, which gives them the ability to treat their Int, Wis, or Cha (whichever is highest) as their Con score whenever beneficial. That way they can shape and bind soulmelds, despite not having an actual Con score, and thus won't need many magic items.

[unseenmage]

If Constructs are Magic Items then the Magic Item Combinjng rules from MIC are a possibility.

If not then yeah, Rudimentary Intelligence is your best bet.


I strongly recommend using the PF rules for Constructs/Golems instead.
The ability to add weapons and armor directly to the Construct, and the Price by CR guidelines are lifesavers.

In 3.x only Constructs created with weapons as part of them can have Magic weapon enhancements built directly into the Construct. (The Brass Golem is where this info is found iirc.)
Brass Golem, Caryatid Column, and the Dedicated Wright Homuncilus are just about the only 3.x Constructs that get built in magic weaponry. And even then they have to be made when the Construct is created.

You'll want to use and abuse the Greater Humanoid Essence spell from Eberron. It changes the type of a Construct into a Humanoid for the duration. For most tricks you'll need to up that duration somehow.
Changing type strips away type immunities too.
So now you can have a golem infected with lycanthropy or vampirism.
You could hit it with the Half Golem or Mineral Warrior templates too.
Mind swapping and other mind affecting enchantments also become options.

Spells that create Constructs whole cloth can be more accessible than the traditionally overpriced golems too.
Awaken Sand and Minor Servitor are both spells that create a free willed Construct buddy. Just Greater Humanoid Essence them and mind control them as you see fit. The effects should persist even when their type changes back, because if type changing removed active spells then the Greater Humanoid Essence spell itself would cease functioning as soon as it took effect.

Create Crawling Claw is another great Construct creating spell. It requires severed left hands though, for which I usually Fabricate up an art piece made of left hands, then sever those.
There are two versions of the Crawling Claw. The one oresented with the spell is a hand with the strength score of a human. A later book updates the Crawling Claw into a swarm but doesn't change the Create Crawling Claw spell.

In my extended sig there's a link to a thread about the best feats that any creature can benefit from I explicitly made fir situations like Rudinentary Intelligence.

[Particle_Man]

I think Complete Arcane has some "repair light damage" (and minor/moderate/serious/critical) wizard spells that can repair constructs in the way cure spells can heal people. So contingency (maximized repair critical damage) could repair one in combat, and a large number of wands of repair light damage could repair them out of combat).

Also, constructs don't have to be humanoid shaped, do they? How much money do you have? What if the construct *was* the wizard's tower?

[schreier]

No one mentioned elder eidolon yet, but they are incredibly powerful.

If you can get buy-in, a half-dragon marilith elder eidolon is absolutely beastly - even more so if you give it rudimentary intelligence
(the reason for half-dragon is to convert the outsider to dragon to qualify for the template. As a large creature, it gains wings and flying)

[Harrow]

I'm just spit-balling here, but if constructs are magic items, does that mean you can use the intelligent magic item rules with them? I'm not even sure if that would be a good idea or not, but, if it's a possibility, it might be worth looking into.

[Max Caysey]

I'm just spit-balling here, but if constructs are magic items, does that mean you can use the intelligent magic item rules with them? I'm not even sure if that would be a good idea or not, but, if it's a possibility, it might be worth looking into.

I would think so, but I don’t think that would turn them into a golem… more like animated object…

[unseenmage]

I would think so, but I don’t think that would turn them into a golem… more like animated object…

The idea is that because Craft Conatruct is a magic item creation feat then Constructs are Magic Items. There are a few other pieces of onfo scattered about that can be used to support this but they're all dubious RAW and certainly not RAI.

A game where Constructs count as Magic Items can be interesting but becomes abusabke pretty quickly and runs right off the rails of what the rules can cover pretty quickly too.

The MIC Magic Item combijjng rules are one instance. Sure adding Magic Items to your Golem similarly to adding Embedded Warforged Components to a Warforged is pretty straightforward, but what of adding a Comstruct to another Construct or a Construct to a Magic Item?
If Constructs are Magic Items then this should be possible, right? But we have no guidelines for how this could be done.
(I use the Amalgam template from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary fyi.)

Another similar glitch is single use custom Magic Items. Could you make a single use Construct? Again, there are no guidelines.
(I'd always assumed the pricing for Astral Constructs or summoned monsters would be used here.)

These are also the reasons I advocate for just using the Pathfinder Building and Modifying Constructs section of the PRD. Lends a reasonable pricing scheme in the Price by CR guidelines and there's loads of customization already built into their Construct info.
Also adding the Robot subtype to a non robot or non clockwork Construct just outright gives it Intelligence, which is nice.

I use the Constructs are Magic Items rules interpretation for theoretical optimization exercises almost exclusively. It gets real out of hand real quick otherwise.


All of that said, putting Intelligent Magic Item powers into a Figurine of Wondrous Power is my go-to for making Items that are also creatures.
Even then the GM has to adjudicate, when is the thing Item intelligent and when is it animal intelligent?
(My understanding of the RAW is that when activated the item ceases to be an item and becomes the creature entirely, so the two minds are unconnected.)

[AnonJr]

Does it have to be golems specifically, or would any construct do? I think there are some interesting things you can do for effigies or homonculi.

I'd like to second the look into homunculi - they're priced better than the golems, and there's some need ways to improve them via the "Improved Homunculus" feat in Magic of Eberron. That book and the Eberron Campaign Setting have a couple worth looking at - I don't remember which book has it, but there's even an animated ballista. Nice way to guard a keep without having extra mouths to feed.

Thing to keep in mind though is that many are somewhat situationally useful - e.g. Persistent Harriers can do some neat things (Warforged I'm playing in our current campaign has two), but they're best as flanking buddies for something else. Pair them up with a beefed up Iron Defender, and you could have a nice pack that can hold various choke points with relative ease.

[ShurikVch]

The easy way for powerful Constructs is to make Effigies (/Elder Eidolons) of templated creatures

[Max Caysey]

Quick question: why hasn’t the colossi in ELH feats when they have an int score? That seems like a mistake…

Also, giving the iron colossus improved natural attack, what damage dice does one get it to? The feat only goes up to 12d6…

[RSGA]

At least going by the update handbook, most of the colossi are Int - with the exception of the Flesh Colossus which can have Int as the controlling spirit. So no feats and no skills other than what they're given on the page.

[Max Caysey]

At least going by the update handbook, most of the colossi are Int - with the exception of the Flesh Colossus which can have Int as the controlling spirit. So no feats and no skills other than what they're given on the page.

I was looking at The d20srd… That’ll explain it!