How can I improve this concept/build?

[jaappleton]

Years ago, a decommissioned Warforged stood in a forest grove, inert, a relic of a forgotten battle. As decades passed, nature overtook the land, and bees formed a hive inside it.

After a Lich used Necromancy to resurrect the fallen soldiers of that forgotten battle for their army, an unexpected side effect occurred:

The Warforged found itself awakened, though irreparably changed. The hive inside it as a whole was now in control, though tainted by the dark necromantic magic. The Hive was in control, and all its actions were to serve the Queen. Unable to distinguish from the Hive Queen and the Raven Queen, believing they were one in the same, they set out to do her bidding.

---

Emotionless. Calculating. Sees humanoids and mortals as "poorly designed" and filled with selfish desires, the Hive as a whole is superior in every way. Everyone has their place in the hierarchy, and the hierarchy is perfect. We are Legion, for we are many.

---

So, initially, I thought Druid. But I wanted to go in a darker direction with it, and was leaning much more into Undead Warlock. Taking on the visage of a creepy, eldritch, death-fueled insect with the Form of Dread. Eldritch Blast is a swarm of bees flying at my foes.

Using Chain Pact to take a Gazer. That's me Bee-Holder. I feel like Warlock with Chainpact Gazer is, round for round, more appealing and fun-sounding to actually play even if Druid might be more on-brand at first thought. Does that make sense?

Any ideas to keep going further down the rabbit hole with this? Wouldn't mind utilizing some of Tasha's Summon spells as a swarm of bees forming the shape of the creature in question.

(I know this begs for Swarmkeeper Ranger but I REALLY want to go full caster with this)

Level 12, FWIW.

[Frogreaver]

My first question is why is he adventuring with a group of other poorly designed, selfish mortals? Why does he care about them? How does he act when they do something he views as against the Raven Queen's bidding?

[jaappleton]

My first question is why is he adventuring with a group of other poorly designed, selfish mortals? Why does he care about them? How does he act when they do something he views as against the Raven Queen's bidding?

The group of murder hobos they are currently traveling with is adequate for providing sacrifices and tributes to the Raven Queen. Send more souls to her, for she must receive many.

It is an alliance of convenience. And perhaps, with enough demonstration, even their feeble, self-centered minds will come to accept that the Hive is superior. Join us, become indoctrinated. You can join the hive mind, murder hobos, and find greater purpose in your life by serving the Hive.

-----

I just realized this sounds VERY much like a cult and I don't know if that means I HAVE to play it or that I need to stop this idea immediately :smalltongue:

[tiornys]

I know you said full caster, but this concept is such a great fit for the Ghostlance build (https://tabletopbuilds.com/ghostlance/) (base chassis Undead Warlock 2/Echo Knight 3 plus Warcaster for shenanigans with Eldritch Blast and Echo placement) that I have to mention it. In case it's not obvious, flavor for the Echo is that your swarm can split itself into two.

[Frogreaver]

The group of murder hobos they are currently traveling with is adequate for providing sacrifices and tributes to the Raven Queen. Send more souls to her, for she must receive many.

It is an alliance of convenience. And perhaps, with enough demonstration, even their feeble, self-centered minds will come to accept that the Hive is superior. Join us, become indoctrinated. You can join the hive mind, murder hobos, and find greater purpose in your life by serving the Hive.

-----

I just realized this sounds VERY much like a cult and I don't know if that means I HAVE to play it or that I need to stop this idea immediately :smalltongue:

Sounds good.

I'm liking the warlock for this. Good flavor with hexblade as well. Hexblade's work great as primary ranged attackers too. The Spectre can be flavored appropriately. Tasha's summon spells can be flavored appropriately as well.

I've currently got a level 7 celestial warlock playing primarily with EB and tasha's summons and it's great (at least for tier 2).

[Sorinth]

Spore Druid with the spores reflavoured as the swarm might be best thematic as it has that blend of nature and necromancy.

[ftafp]

honestly, you should have your swarmforged use the dhampir racial traits instead of the warforged ones. Your "bite" is actually the swarm stinging. Your spider climb is the result of limbs sticky with honey. The bees are more vulnerable to poison than a warforged is, and your living metal plating corroded after death

by the way, if you're looking for inspiration on necromancy bees, look up Vulture Bees. they make honey out of carrion

[jaappleton]

Spore Druid with the spores reflavoured as the swarm might be best thematic as it has that blend of nature and necromancy.

Thematically, Spore makes sense. It really does. Throwing out a huge swarm of bees to plague my enemies is awesome, I like the idea of bees coming out from the warforged shell and surrounding me to reveal my 'true' nature when I wild shape.

Mechanically.... Spores is so, so bad. Everything about their abilities being a Con save is a huge issue, getting completely knocked out of their form when they lose the Temp HP is a gut punch.

It's a shame, as Spores is amazing thematically.

---

A larger issue I just thought of, and I'd love some help with it, if people would be so kind:

So, an issue

The character, let's call him Bee. That's totally not their name but I need a placeholder

Bee's mind is the Hive as a whole. We are Legion. Everything is for the good of their community, being the Hive.

Humanoids are poorly designed. Selfish. Think for themselves. Strictly inferior to the Hive and it's hierarchy structure.

Humanoids are selfish, devious. The Hive is calculating, logic driven.

As such, as much as I really like Undeadlock for this.... Does Charisma make sense?

IMO it doesn't. I really should go with something much more Wis or Int oriented.

But love Warlock for this.

I remember in the early 5e playtest stuff when it was called Next, Warlocks were Int based. But asking to key it all of Int would be a fairly big ask from my DM. He's very amenable, but I don't want a character that works only because rules were bent and twisted. I'd much rather it work strictly straight out of the box, so to speak.

Any ideas? I even thought of Armorer, being a suit of armor taken over by the bees, but the special weapons of the subclass really don't jive well with feats to optimize it in such a way that it makes up for the lack of full spellcasting.

That leaves Cleric, Druid and Wizard. I'd love to avoid Wizard. Cleric.... could work... but I am struggling with those in finding a way to have the round by round seem fun and appealing. I don't want to pour through a list of spells for the right "I win" button, I want to throw BEES. This is why I find the traditionally 'limiting' Pact magic actually fairly liberating in this instance.

[nickl_2000]

IMO it doesn't. I really should go with something much more Wis or Int oriented.

But love Warlock for this.

I remember in the early 5e playtest stuff when it was called Next, Warlocks were Int based. But asking to key it all of Int would be a fairly big ask from my DM. He's very amenable, but I don't want a character that works only because rules were bent and twisted. I'd much rather it work strictly straight out of the box, so to speak.


It's not that much of an ask. You can quote this if need be.
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/810215324784193536?lang=en

[Psyren]

Thematically, Spore makes sense. It really does. Throwing out a huge swarm of bees to plague my enemies is awesome, I like the idea of bees coming out from the warforged shell and surrounding me to reveal my 'true' nature when I wild shape.

Mechanically.... Spores is so, so bad. Everything about their abilities being a Con save is a huge issue, getting completely knocked out of their form when they lose the Temp HP is a gut punch.

It's a shame, as Spores is amazing thematically.

I mean, it's not all that bad. 4 temp hp/level, 2x/short rest that last indefinitely (they are not subject to the 10 min duration of the other effects) can really add up. And since you're going to be casting from the back row (especially with Chill Touch giving you a decent long-range cantrip) chances are most fights won't be able to burn through them all. You can fluff the spore zombie as being reanimated by BEES which is going to be really creepy in a fight.

[J-H]

Warlock is pretty much the only way to also get the Cloak of Flies Bees invocation.

[Burley]

Humanoids are selfish, devious. The Hive is calculating, logic driven.

As such, as much as I really like Undeadlock for this.... Does Charisma make sense?

IMO it doesn't. I really should go with something much more Wis or Int oriented.

But love Warlock for this.

I remember in the early 5e playtest stuff when it was called Next, Warlocks were Int based. But asking to key it all of Int would be a fairly big ask from my DM. He's very amenable, but I don't want a character that works only because rules were bent and twisted. I'd much rather it work strictly straight out of the box, so to speak.

Any ideas? I even thought of Armorer, being a suit of armor taken over by the bees, but the special weapons of the subclass really don't jive well with feats to optimize it in such a way that it makes up for the lack of full spellcasting.

That leaves Cleric, Druid and Wizard. I'd love to avoid Wizard. Cleric.... could work... but I am struggling with those in finding a way to have the round by round seem fun and appealing. I don't want to pour through a list of spells for the right "I win" button, I want to throw BEES. This is why I find the traditionally 'limiting' Pact magic actually fairly liberating in this instance.


I think of Charisma as "force of personality." Intimidation is a charisma skill, no? I get strong cult leader vibes (intentionally?) and that idea is too interesting to give up on. Maybe the legion has elected/appointed Bee to be their spokesperson or ambassador. Yes, Legion is many minds of one mind, but they can't all speak at once. Thus, Bee has the collected force of personality of Legion, filtered, funneled and sharpened to a point.
"Why Bee? Because one of them had to. Is Bee special? Only as part of the whole. Will Bee question its position? It will not."

Edit: Stick with Warlock because you like it and its fun.

[Joe the Rat]

Names: Internally, you are The Hive. or simply We. You could play around with the number 6 as well, since its a recurring theme for bees, and insects in general. Six, Hex, VI, etc.
But the real question is if you can unleash a swarm of bee and honey puns with a straight face and flat monotone.

Sticking with Warlock, you absolutely want to Chainpact - beyond the beeholder (it's a gazer that shoots bees out of its mouth!), the pact-specific invocations feed nicely into hive-mind-domination shenanigans. Undeath carries more necrofeel, but Good Old Great Old One has some potential if you want to lean more into the alien sentience of the hive, and mind control.

I know it's a soft option, but the cloak of flies invocation is necessary. That alone should dash swarmkeeper from your minds.

Remember that Charisma is strength of presence, and of self - you can persuade through sheer force of will, the weight of a hundred thousand minds boring into someone. Having your ability to eldritch beelast someone be dependent on the collective will under the queens kind of works. Just don't take any charisma skills, except maybe Performance, since the entirety of your being knows how to dance.

If you are leaning Wisdom, Spore Druid gives you necronature. If you could sell your DM on using the Golgari Swarm background, that could give you a bit of extra flex and flavor. I know you want full casting, but tossing in three levels of ranger for swarmkeeper is soooooo on theme. I'd probably take defense or druidic casting for the fighting style


by the way, if you're looking for inspiration on necromancy bees, look up Vulture Bees. they make honey out of carrionYou had to mention these little monsters.
Vulture Bees would make a good case for hexblade, since they feed you bits of your cursed victim, and the ichor dripping from your wounds (which, admit it, is going to be honey) will have a disturbing red tinge and meat smell. The wraith would be, well, bees, holding a piece of the soul of that victim as its template. As another selling point, you being called a hexblade might have something to do with the honeycomb shapes that fill your internal cavities.

[da newt]

CHA based can work - perhaps you aren't the smooth operator type, maybe you are more of the cult of personality, overwhelming force of will power and logic, you aren't a clever scalpel you are more of a irresistible sledge hammer. Why bother subtly manipulating folks - they are inferior, break their will and control them.

I'd bee really tempted to dip fighter (defensive FS) or forge cleric just to ensure I could have a really high AC - have you ever tried to hit a swarm of bees with a sword or arrow? Thematically, first level fighter makes sense as it was the warforged's build purpose.

I also like the echo knight flavor to give your swarm an independent form.

Will you bee vulnerable to smoke?

[Unoriginal]

The spell Giant Insect could be nice, here.

[Sorinth]

Thematically, Spore makes sense. It really does. Throwing out a huge swarm of bees to plague my enemies is awesome, I like the idea of bees coming out from the warforged shell and surrounding me to reveal my 'true' nature when I wild shape.

Mechanically.... Spores is so, so bad. Everything about their abilities being a Con save is a huge issue, getting completely knocked out of their form when they lose the Temp HP is a gut punch.

It's a shame, as Spores is amazing thematically.

---

A larger issue I just thought of, and I'd love some help with it, if people would be so kind:

So, an issue

The character, let's call him Bee. That's totally not their name but I need a placeholder

Bee's mind is the Hive as a whole. We are Legion. Everything is for the good of their community, being the Hive.

Humanoids are poorly designed. Selfish. Think for themselves. Strictly inferior to the Hive and it's hierarchy structure.

Humanoids are selfish, devious. The Hive is calculating, logic driven.

As such, as much as I really like Undeadlock for this.... Does Charisma make sense?

IMO it doesn't. I really should go with something much more Wis or Int oriented.

But love Warlock for this.

I remember in the early 5e playtest stuff when it was called Next, Warlocks were Int based. But asking to key it all of Int would be a fairly big ask from my DM. He's very amenable, but I don't want a character that works only because rules were bent and twisted. I'd much rather it work strictly straight out of the box, so to speak.

Any ideas? I even thought of Armorer, being a suit of armor taken over by the bees, but the special weapons of the subclass really don't jive well with feats to optimize it in such a way that it makes up for the lack of full spellcasting.

That leaves Cleric, Druid and Wizard. I'd love to avoid Wizard. Cleric.... could work... but I am struggling with those in finding a way to have the round by round seem fun and appealing. I don't want to pour through a list of spells for the right "I win" button, I want to throw BEES. This is why I find the traditionally 'limiting' Pact magic actually fairly liberating in this instance.

Yeah Spore druid isn't the greatest subclass, but you still have all the standard druid goodies so it's not like your character would actually be bad. Not sure if you want to go with a summon heavy build but having Animate Dead makes Spore Druid decent. You might even consider a Warlock Multiclass and take advantage of the Warforged not sleeping. But that can be disruptive to general play.


I don't think Charisma is necessarily bad stat for your character. It's just less charm and more force of personality which does fit well with a hive mind. So take Intimidation instead of Persuasion and RP in that direction.

For Cleric if that's the way you want to go, you can flavour Spirtual Weapon & Spirit Guardians as the Bees.

[JLandan]

Warlock is pretty much the only way to also get the Cloak of Flies Bees invocation.

The feat Eldritch Adept at 4th level with some other invocation, then switch it to Cloak at 5th.

Spore Druid rocks. I've got a Spore Druid/Swarmkeeper Ranger that is becoming one of my favorite builds. He's so disgusting. Swarmkeeper has a lot of features that would be cool for your build, but it's Ranger based, so not really a caster type.

I like your concept of a living beehive collective, even if it is something of a commie. We are Bee, resistance is futile. As to a name, Apis is Latin for bee. Cantonese for bee is mi feng, Arabic is Nahil, Catalan is Abella, Greek is Melissa, Irish is Beach, Lithuanian is Bite. Personally, I like Melissa. Also, the family crest of Napoleon Bonaparte is a bee.

[jaappleton]

After seeing the responses, I'm sticking with Warlock.

Charisma can be sheer force of will, and the Hive will not be denied.

The Hive is superior, the apex predator, the alpha, and like the Highlander, there can only be one. The Hive's job is to please the (Raven) Queen, and she demands souls.

For magic items, I'm starting with a Rod of the Pact Keeper +3 and a little known magic item from Fizban's, an item called the Scaled Ornament.

The Rare version of the Scaled Ornament grants +1 to AC, immunity to Charm and Frightened, and nearby allies have Adv VS those conditions.

It seemed incredibly fitting when thinking of the unbending willpower of the hive mind, and its why I took it over something like the Cloak of Displacement. Also, as awesome as something like the Staff of Power is, I picked the Pact Keeper because.... Well, the SoP is just too good. Seriously, that should be Legendary, we all know it. And largely, while its spells are quite powerful, it feels like cheating.

[tiornys]

The feat Eldritch Adept at 4th level with some other invocation, then switch it to Cloak at 5th.
Doesn't work. You need Warlock 5 for Cloak of Flies, not character level 5: "If an eldritch invocation has prerequisites, you must meet them to learn it. You can learn the invocation at the same time that you meet its prerequisites. A level prerequisite refers to your level in this class."

[jaappleton]

I actually passed on Cloak of Flies/Bees.

I KNOW. I know it seems so obvious to take it.

However. I feel like I can swing a very similar effect with Misty Visions, use it more often, and be way more versatile. I don't care who your DM is, if you describe yourself as vomiting bees from your mouth, you should get Advantage on Intimidation.