Simulacrum+wish=infinite gold: how to handle it?

[ironkid]

A player of mine has stated quite clearly he plans to - eventually - use the simulacrum + wish combo to make infinite gold. This would certainly be hurtful to my game, and I'm at a loss of how to handle it. I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he? A potential solution would be that whenever his simulacrum cast wish, the owner of the simulacrum gets the wish stress thing.

I'd like to read your opinions about how to handle this.

[Unoriginal]

A player of mine has stated quite clearly he plans to - eventually - use the simulacrum + wish combo to make infinite gold. This would certainly be hurtful to my game, and I'm at a loss of how to handle it. I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he? A potential solution would be that whenever his simulacrum cast wish, the owner of the simulacrum gets the wish stress thing.

I'd like to read your opinions about how to handle this.

How does he plan to make infinite gold? Nothing about this combo lets you make infinite gold.



I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he?

As the DM, you can simply say "this is not possible".

[nickl_2000]

-Have it break the economy completely. Since he is flooding the market with gold, the prices for gold drop so that they are completely worthless, ruining the local economy and starting a war in the local kingdom to try and make up for the lost money and power.
-A wish from a Simulacrum can also make the original casts wish go Poof.
-Once a Simulacrum's wish fails, the spell is lost for all future and existing simulacrums made by the PC.

And although you said otherwise, really the best method is to talk to the player and say "this is going to be a gigantic pain for me and take fun away from DMing the game, I would appreciate it you respect the fact that I don't want it done at my table"

[Petelo4f]

A player of mine has stated quite clearly he plans to - eventually - use the simulacrum + wish combo to make infinite gold. This would certainly be hurtful to my game, and I'm at a loss of how to handle it. I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he? A potential solution would be that whenever his simulacrum cast wish, the owner of the simulacrum gets the wish stress thing.

I'd like to read your opinions about how to handle this.

The answer is to say no. Look by the RAW he can do it, and you can come up with all sorts of weird ways of trying to reign it in either via punishing his character or somehow upscaling the power of your game. However, that just warps the game into a weird unfun arms race. The only answer is to put your foot down, kindly.

Literally...outside of game, say this, "Hey look that is a cool idea, but I honestly am not skilled enough a DM to handle the ramifications of that, so I am sorry, but I am going to have to say you cannot do this."


If they can't accept this, honestly, you don't need to play with that sort of person.

[Pildion]

A player of mine has stated quite clearly he plans to - eventually - use the simulacrum + wish combo to make infinite gold. This would certainly be hurtful to my game, and I'm at a loss of how to handle it. I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he? A potential solution would be that whenever his simulacrum cast wish, the owner of the simulacrum gets the wish stress thing.

I'd like to read your opinions about how to handle this.

Your the DM, if you say that doesn't work, then that doesn't work.

Also, by the time you get Wish, you basically have unlimited gold haha. Most campaigns by tier 4 have the party with hundreds of thousands of gold, who cares if he makes gold with the wish spell. I wouldn't even make a person bother with the simulacrum at that point. My players and me always have a hard time coming up with what to DO with all the gold we\they have lol, well normally we do some strongholds \ world building but yea, this is a non issue really.

[Psyren]

A potential solution would be that whenever his simulacrum cast wish, the owner of the simulacrum gets the wish stress thing.

For what it's worth, Adventurer's League officially rules this way ("You Are You, and So Is He.") (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/DDAL_FAQv6-1.pdf)


I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he?

Because you said so? You're the DM right?

Also, even if you want to keep this firmly within the RAW (again, you shouldn't, but thought experiment): that's not really how wishing for wealth works. The safe usage is always for a single object - to actually turn that into wealth he still needs to find a way to sell it. You can't just wish for gold because there is no gold coin that is worth 25k gold coins. If he insists on wishing for gold directly anyway, he's moved outside the safe zone.

[Jerrykhor]

Your player probably thinks the infinite clones can cast infinite Wishes. They can't, because they were created with Wish, therefore they are formed without a level 9 spell slot, because the original spent one to cast it.

[LudicSavant]

A player of mine has stated quite clearly he plans to - eventually - use the simulacrum + wish combo to make infinite gold. This would certainly be hurtful to my game, and I'm at a loss of how to handle it. I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he? A potential solution would be that whenever his simulacrum cast wish, the owner of the simulacrum gets the wish stress thing.

I'd like to read your opinions about how to handle this.

If you allow the Simulacrum + Wish combo RAW, gold is the least of your worries. Just patch it out.


Your player probably thinks the infinite clones can cast infinite Wishes. They can't, because they were created with Wish, therefore they are formed without a level 9 spell slot, because the original spent one to cast it.

I wouldn't assume that, since there's a pretty easy workaround for that.

[Greywander]

So here's my take on this. If this was possible to do, then every 17th level wizard would have done it. Not only that, but gold is about the most pedestrian thing you could wish for. No, these wizards would be immortal, invincible, be able to cast all of their spells, including Wish, at will, and basically be gods.

Since we don't see that in the setting, we have to assume that Wish doesn't work like this. I second the suggestion that the simulacrum casting Wish inflicts the backlash on the original caster who created the simulacrum, including the chance to never be able to cast Wish again. That position is even supported in official material, as seen here:

For what it's worth, Adventurer's League officially rules this way ("You Are You, and So Is He.") (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/DDAL_FAQv6-1.pdf)
If, for some reason, your player objects to this, have a god wizard teleport in and kill/Imprison them. They used their infinite magic to detect a potential rival and destroyed him before he could become a threat. Also, because wizards have infinite gold, gold is now basically worthless, and only high powered magic items have any meaningful value. Then offer to roll back and do things your way instead.

Basically, it's a bad idea to have it work the way the player wants. If you have to, show them why.

Now, I'm less clear on things like a Ring of Three Wishes and other items that let you make wishes, or having a genie grant wishes. I'd be more inclined to have those bypass a backlash, but then I'd expect artificers to start cranking those out and abuse them. The genie is probably the only one that's truly "safe", and then only if you trust the genie to faithfully grant what you actually wanted instead of twisting the wish.

[PhoenixPhyre]

We need common-sense wish control here.

I'm very much in the "tell the player, OOC, that that won't work. RAW can go hang" camp.

My personal rules around simulacrum (and other summoning spells) go a bit further:
* Any wish-related stress incurred by the sim is incurred by the caster (AL's rule)
* Simulacra (and any other conjured or created creature) will not cast any spell or use any ability to summon or create any other creature. No summon chaining.
* Simulacra cannot regain any resource, except HP via the alchemical means specified. Even more--rechargeable magic items worn/attuned by simulacra do not recharge while worn that way[1].

[1] that's actually a side-effect of my explanation for how magic items recharge, namely that it draws on the user's soul. And simulacra, being soulless beings animated by magic, can't do that. Sure, you can get around that by switching the item to someone else, letting it recharge, and giving it back, so this isn't as much a balance thing as a setting-fiction thing.

[MoiMagnus]

A player of mine has stated quite clearly he plans to - eventually - use the simulacrum + wish combo to make infinite gold. This would certainly be hurtful to my game, and I'm at a loss of how to handle it. I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he? A potential solution would be that whenever his simulacrum cast wish, the owner of the simulacrum gets the wish stress thing.

I'd like to read your opinions about how to handle this.

Whatever the solution you chose, you might complement it with this:
"Oh, and if any of you find a way around it, please try to come up with a way to patch it. Infinite simulacrum is not possible with standard spells, because if it was the world's history would have been much different and your characters would currently be living under a dictatorship made by simulacrum armies. Countless generations of mages have already tried to reach infinite simulacrums using forbidden magic and lost artefact. We can talk after the end of the campaign if you want your character's retirement plans to be the one who finally succeed at that while a group of adventurer assemble to kill them before they find the last piece of a forgotten parchment needed for it."

[Kurt Kurageous]

If the player insists, tell them the rest of the party have to agree as it ends the campaign. If they get the rest of the party onboard, then you narrate how it all unfolded.

"The economy you ruined by causing a rampant devaluation of previously precious metals leads to civil war. Farmers lose their life savings through devaluation and quit the farms. There is massive suffering amongst the innocents, a loss of technological progress which ends the renaissance and plunges the realm into a new dark age. Eventually a hostile race/civilization takes over. So see you all next week for session zero!"

[Willie the Duck]

A player of mine has stated quite clearly he plans to - eventually - use the simulacrum + wish combo
We can probably stop right here.

The player has found one of the most obvious and well-telegraphed gamebreak in the edition. Good for them, I guess. That they think that they could or should get to exploit said gamebreak is a problem. Is it proof that they are an absolute problem player or anything? Well, no. I mean, a whole lot of us* kinda-vaguely-sorta wanted to get to try out whatever Cheeze build we discovered while at the same time thinking that doing so was kinda wanting to play the game with a cheat code (regardless as to it being by the printed rules). That said, I think someone needs to tell this person, "look, you know this is a gamebreak. I know you know that, and you know that I know you know that I do. You have got to realize that me letting you do this would break the game, right? As in, no fun for anyone, except maybe you for the duration that playing on super-easy mode stays fun, right? So here is what we are going to do. While people are still interested in this game, we are going to find a way for you to not be doing this. That can either be a soft-ban/gentleperson's agreement, or a hard ban/it-doesn't-work. Then, when everyone else is bored of the campaign, we can have a few sessions where you go hog wild on the thing. Really crank out the double-arsenal aspect as much as you want. And then we start the next campaign! Deal?"
*I will not pretend that I didn't think "oh, cool" for a bit after having discovered Simulacrum+wish (to take the risk of perma-losing wish onto the Simulacrum's shoulders), coffeelock, first level one-handed quarterstaff+dueling+PAM+a shield, and one-level hexblade dips right before advocating that they were non-beneficial to the game.

[Sigreid]

Tell the player "Because you have a wisdom of over 3, you realize that there are lots of powers both in this world and across the planes that won't take kindly to this and will do whatever it takes to stop you." Then if he proceeds, sick the inevitable on him because at that point he's screwing with the order of the multiverse. Lets face it, he's not the first person in the world to have the power and the idea. it hasn't been done for one of 2 reasons. Either they thought better of it, or they were destroyed (not merely killed) before they could really get rolling.

[RSP]

As others have suggested, just saying “no” is a perfectly fine option.

I’d also urge using the original caster suffers effects from Sim casting Wish bit.

Then, If wanting an in-game reason to respond to the Simulacrum Wish, remember the below from Wish:

“The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.“

Easiest way to do this: Simulacrum cast Wish for an item worth 25,000 gp. (Make the PC roll for 33% never cast again and give backlash effects)

Upon making the Wish request, the Sim disappears (unbeknownst to the PC, the 25,000 gp item belonged to a powerful Thayan Wizard/Lich/whatever, so Wish teleported the Sim to the item). A minute or so later an image appears (via Project Image) and explains the assault on the Thayans/Lich/whatever will not be taken lightly.

Follow this up with a full on Deadly++ assault, letting the other Players know (in game thru RP) the assault is fully the fault of the Wish PC. Whomever dies, dies.

Alternatively, (or part of the above assault) just have the Wish PC Gate-ed away (the Sim, after vanishing, revealed the name of its creator to the Thayans/Lich/Whatever), and they face a Deadly++ encounter on their own, in a different plane or Demiplane, while suffering Wish backlash (kudos to the other thread that presented this as a possibility for enemy use).

Either way, if the Player doesn’t accept “no, don’t do that,” then give a warning of “if you do this, it will not end well for you and/or the party, and you will be responsible for the effect.”

Give the warning in front of all the Players so they know what’s happening. Then ask everyone: “what are the rest of you doing when Wish Player is going to do this?”

I imagine most, if not all, will heed the warning and make sure they’re far away. If they choose to stay, that’s on them.

[KorvinStarmast]

And although you said otherwise, really the best method is to talk to the player and say "this is going to be a gigantic pain for me and take fun away from DMing the game, I would appreciate if you respect the fact that I don't want it done at my table" Good approach, with the Gate suggestion that Ludic Savant brought up the other day being a nice back up plan.

If the player insists, tell them the rest of the party have to agree as it ends the campaign. If they get the rest of the party onboard, then you narrate how it all unfolded.

"The economy you ruined by causing a rampant devaluation of previously precious metals leads to civil war. Farmers lose their life savings through devaluation and quit the farms. There is massive suffering amongst the innocents, a loss of technological progress which ends the Renaissance and plunges the realm into a new dark age. Eventually a hostile race / civilization takes over. So see you all next week for session zero!"
Another choice. (And maybe ask them "Will you be the DM for this new campaign? This one has ended, and we'd all like to keep playing...")

Tell the player "Because you have a wisdom of over 3, you realize that there are lots of powers both in this world and across the planes that won't take kindly to this and will do whatever it takes to stop you." Then if he proceeds, sick the inevitable on him because at that point he's screwing with the order of the multiverse. Lets face it, he's not the first person in the world to have the power and the idea. It hasn't been done for one of 2 reasons. Either they thought better of it, or, they were destroyed (not merely killed) before they could really get rolling. *something something* the Prince of Earth elementals wonders where all of the gold is going that is being pulled from the elemental plane of earth. He puts together a swat team of Dao's, Earth Elementals, Xorns, mud mephits, etc, and goes forth to find that miscreant * something something*

“Easiest way to do this: Simulacrum cast Wish for an item worth 25,000 gp. (Make the PC roll for 33% never cast again and give backlash effects) Upon making the Wish request, the Sim disappears (unbeknownst to the PC, the 25,000 gp item belonged to a powerful Thayan Wizard/Lich/whatever, so Wish teleported the Sim to the item). A minute or so later an image appears (via Project Image) and explains the assault on the Thayans/Lich/whatever will not be taken lightly. Nice touch. :smallsmile:

Follow this up with a full on Deadly++ assault, letting the other Players know (in game thru RP) the assault is fully the fault of the Wish PC. Whomever dies, dies. "Roll Initiative" is how this begins, who knows how it ends?
But first, ask the other players to intercede/talk sense into this player.

[ironkid]

Thanks all. I think the "If the simulacrum does a powerful wish, both of you get the stress thing" is the way to go for my campaign.

[OvisCaedo]

Except creating a valuable object is a stated, concrete, "safe" (with recoil) use of wish and the twisting/unforeseen consequences thing is for trying to break past the stated uses. Especially if you're going to houserule to give the recoil anyhow (which IS a completely reasonable houserule because the RAW is busted), also murdering them is just being spiteful.

I'd advise against really going with any in-universe explanation or events for why it's a bad idea and just openly patch the clearly broken rules, like using the AL "fixes", or otherwise instruct the player to just... not try to break things using loopholes.

[Keravath]

Thanks all. I think the "If the simulacrum does a powerful wish, both of you get the stress thing" is the way to go for my campaign.

I'd suggest also including the rule about preventing simulacrums from casting simulacrum. If you don't cover this loophole early then the infinite gold will just turn into an infinite army of simulacra and then they can just conquer the nearest kingdom with however many simulacra it would take and acquire their gold that way.

The two addenda to the spell would be:
- a simulacrum is incapable of casting the simulacrum spell
- a simulacrum which casts wish shares the resulting stress with the character who created the simulacrum

[Willie the Duck]

or otherwise instruct the player to just... not try to break things using loopholes.

For the sake of not having to deal with the next issue in a similar manner, I think this is the best method. All the 'the wish backfires' type solutions won't solve as many problems as a simple, 'Look, we are here to play a game about being heroes in a fantasy world, not feel out already-established places where the ruleset falls apart. Leave that to TO subforums on your favorite social media.'

[Psyren]

Except creating a valuable object is a stated, concrete, "safe" (with recoil) use of wish and the twisting/unforeseen consequences thing is for trying to break past the stated uses. Especially if you're going to houserule to give the recoil anyhow (which IS a completely reasonable houserule because the RAW is busted), also murdering them is just being spiteful.

I'd advise against really going with any in-universe explanation or events for why it's a bad idea and just openly patch the clearly broken rules, like using the AL "fixes", or otherwise instruct the player to just... not try to break things using loopholes.


I'd suggest also including the rule about preventing simulacrums from casting simulacrum. If you don't cover this loophole early then the infinite gold will just turn into an infinite army of simulacra and then they can just conquer the nearest kingdom with however many simulacra it would take and acquire their gold that way.

The two addenda to the spell would be:
- a simulacrum is incapable of casting the simulacrum spell
- a simulacrum which casts wish shares the resulting stress with the character who created the simulacrum


For the sake of not having to deal with the next issue in a similar manner, I think this is the best method. All the 'the wish backfires' type solutions won't solve as many problems as a simple, 'Look, we are here to play a game about being heroes in a fantasy world, not feel out already-established places where the ruleset falls apart. Leave that to TO subforums on your favorite social media.'

I agree with these, just nip the problem in the bud directly. Stopping the wealth or even the wish portions of it still leaves them free to chain simulacra for other broken reasons.

Now, with all that said - If the wealth issue truly is your only concern and you want to handle it entirely in-game (to reiterate, bad idea), remind the player that wishing for a valuable object doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be sellable at that value. You control the existence of any buyers in your game after all (or thieves.)

[nickl_2000]

Also spraying with a spray bottle and yelling "bad player, bad! No breaking the game" works (note this is not in blue, as it is a serious suggestion not sarcasm)

[Sigreid]

I'll just point out that the magic to get gold thing can be done without wish. There are other spells such as Fabricate and even conjure elementals that if you really want to can be abused to gain obnoxious levels of wealth. Heck, setting up 2 linked teleport circles can let you corner the market on trade between 2 places.

[JNAProductions]

I’ll echo the advice to get the player on-board with NOT breaking the game.

If they’re unwilling to work with you and the other players to make a fun game, and just want to break it all… they’re not worth playing with.
Now, I highly suspect that they’re more reasonable than that, but just make clear that it’s a game to be fun for everyone, not just them.

[Greywander]

I do think it's important from a verisimilitude standpoint to explain why no one else in the setting has done this. Otherwise you're stuck with a gaping "plot hole" along the lines of "why didn't they just fly the eagles to Mordor?" Having the backlash return to the original caster is a sufficient explanation.

Kind of related, but I wrote up a homebrew wild magic system where you roll to cast a spell, so the spell can fail if you don't beat the DC, but also you trigger a wild magic surge if you roll doubles, triples, or quadruples. The effects for rolling quadruples consisted mostly of "roll a new character", with a few "roll a new campaign", but one of the possible results was that whatever spell you cast that triggered the surge became at will for you.

I once speculated on how a caster might use this to try to get at will Wish (you could cast "safe" wishes to avoid the backlash), and if they might destroy themselves first. It was technically possible, just very, very risky. I wanted to run a simulation where the wizard recruits e.g. a cleric to True Resurrect him if he dies, a paladin to give a bonus to saves, etc. and probably does everything inside a demiplane so that the area-affecting surges don't do anything (some surges have a radius measuring in miles). I never did run that simulation, but it would have been interesting, and could make for an interesting antagonist, likely someone driven a bit mad by all the surge effects.

And now I want to try a one-shot with a wild magic character. (Wild magic is a bit tricky for a longer campaign, given how disruptive (and sometimes lethal) some of the effects can be.)

[Sigreid]

Let me ask, are you kind of a stingy DM? I'm not trying to be insulting, just asking because you have to be level 17 to cast wish. At that point I kind of expect the PCs to either have or be able to get sufficient wealth to do nearly anything they want anyway.

[Psyren]

Now, I highly suspect that they’re more reasonable than that, but just make clear that it’s a game to be fun for everyone, not just them.

And to be even clearer - "fun for everyone" includes you, the DM.

[Lokishade]

It was mentioned before and I'll mention it again because it is so good.

Adventurer's League makes it so that the Simulacrum doesn't suffer Wish stress, but its creator does. This is the simplest, most elegant solution to the problem.

When your player acquires Wish, state to him how special it is. While other spells are like a tap into the Weave, Wish is like a fire hydrant. The master Wizard will know in his guts that no matter how well he manipulates magic, he can't escape Wish stress.

[Psyren]

Adventurer's League makes it so that the Simulacrum doesn't suffer Wish stress, but its creator does. This is the simplest, most elegant solution to the problem.

Actually, the AL rule is that BOTH of you suffer stress when it casts it. So your simulacrum might become forever unable to cast it, necessitating you to create another; it can also cause you to be unable to cast it again, which will apply to every new simulacrum your character creates for the rest of their career.

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, there are a few options:

1) Go the AL route, where a Simulacrum can't make a Simulacrum of itself, and if a Simulacrum casts Wish then you deal with the consequences

2) Ask him to not use this exploit

3) Let him use the exploit, and let him lean into the exploit, but weave that into the world. He'll most likely use Wish to make an object worth about 25,000 gold. Due to the wording, you're not stealing the object from anyone, you're creating that object out of nothing. So no-one is gonna come hunting for the PC's head because they stole something super valuable. Instead, the trouble is gonna come when they go to sell that object.

Most people don't have the gold to buy a 25k gem, he'll need to make something useful instead. For example, he could make a 100ft by 20ft sailing ship that's worth 10,000 gold. Then he can either use his ship to start a trade business, buying and selling goods or charging people to use his ship. Or he can just sell the ship to a merchant and start up a business as a shipwright. However, because he's making his ships instantaneously without any major cost, now he's competing with proper shipwrights. They could bring their own economic power to bear against him.


Not only that, but because his ship was made via a spell, it falls prey to Antimagic Sphere. Objects made via magic wink out of existence if they pass into an Antimagic field, which makes his ships pretty dangerous to sail on. You wouldn't want to be sailing along, only to have your boat disappear out in the ocean. Have that happen a few times, and not as many people will be willing to buy from him. He'll still have made a decent cut, but its no longer infinite money.

[Reynaert]

I'm not sure exactly how the wish+simulacrum = infinite gold works. Can someone explain this, in detail? I'm pretty sure one would run into all kinds of practical limitations.

[Sigreid]

I'm not sure exactly how the wish+simulacrum = infinite gold works. Can someone explain this, in detail? I'm pretty sure one would run into all kinds of practical limitations.

You create a simulacrum of yourself while you have wish memorized. You make the simulacrum use his wish to wish for wealth, so it makes the roll for wish burnout instead of you. Since it can't recover spell slots anyway, there's no lose here.

Edit: You do this on loop until you have all the wealth you want.

[Greywander]

Given that Simulacrum is an illusion spell, and part of the spell components includes pieces of the creature you're duplicating (e.g. hair, fingernails, etc.), I think it's safe to say that the simulacrum is not a real creature, but rather some extension of the creature they are a copy of.

Some interesting things I noticed while rereading the spell description:

It can only target beasts and humanoids. RIP fey and other non-humanoid wizards. Liches can't make simulacra of themselves, apparently.
The simulacrum is friendly to the caster of the spell, not the creature that it is a duplicate of. You can use it to create copies of your enemies, though that enemy has to be in range during the entire casting of the spell. Wishing for a simulacrum can bypass this, making it viable for a boss fight, but the simulacrum is formed without any equipment and has half the HP.

You could, in theory, create a simulacrum of another caster who has the ability to cast Wish. In which case, who suffers the backlash? The caster, or the creature the simulacrum is a copy of?

If it's the caster, then two casters, one with Wish and one with Simulacrum, could still conspire for unlimited Wishes. The caster of Simulacrum would suffer the backlash, including becoming unable to cast Wish, but the simulacrum would retain the ability to cast Wish since they're a copy of a different creature. In other words, you could keep going even after the Simulacrum caster loses the ability to cast Wish.

On the other hand, if it is the creature who is being copied that suffers the backlash, well, see my previous comment about how you can make simulacra of enemies. Wish for a simulacrum of a boss, then have the simulacrum cast Wish to create a non-spell effect that will give you a huge benefit, and watch as the boss experiences the backlash, and possibly loses the ability to cast Wish.

Also, you can use Wish to reroll the chance to never be able to cast Wish. Since the chance is only 33%, that means you're more likely than not to pass the roll any given time you make it. 33% is still a huge risk, but my point is that if you had an infinite number of wizards collaborating with each other, where if one loses the ability to cast Wish, another will cast Wish to grant them a reroll, it would be expected that eventually all the wizards who cast Wish would pass the check. If the odds were higher than 50%, then you'd expect them to spiral into total failure, but it's less than 50%, so given enough rerolls you'd expect total success. (Actually, my math might be wrong; I think the odds that both would succeed on the check would be 67% * 67%, which comes out to about 45%, so a failure spiral would still be expected.)

This could actually make for an interesting plot element. They wouldn't necessarily have to be antagonists, but you could have a cabal of wizards who regularly meet up, have one cast Wish for something, and then all the other wizards will, if necessary, cast Wish to get a reroll on the never-cast-Wish check, until either all wizards who cast Wish have passed, or they've all blown their only 9th level slot. This is more interesting than a single wizard, since there's more potential for their cabal to be disrupted. Maybe one of the wizards decides not to give a reroll to one of their rivals, wanting them to lose the ability to cast Wish so they get kicked out of the cabal. Or maybe you can split up the cabal and they're not willing to risk casting Wish if they don't have enough members as backup.


I'm not sure exactly how the wish+simulacrum = infinite gold works. Can someone explain this, in detail? I'm pretty sure one would run into all kinds of practical limitations.
Step 1. Cast Simulacrum to create a copy of yourself, who can cast Wish.
Step 2. Have the simulacrum cast Wish instead of you to get huge amounts of gold (pretty tame, considering what else you can Wish for).
Step 3. Your simulacrum, not you, suffers the backlash for Wishing for an effect other than reproducing a spell of 8th level or less.
Step 4. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Basically, the simulacrum assumes all the risk involved with Wish, but you get to retain all the benefits. It does have a high setup cost, since you can't use Wish to replicate Simulacrum, as then the simulacrum would be down a 9th level slot and unable to cast Wish.

That's the logic, anyway.

[Reynaert]

You create a simulacrum of yourself while you have wish memorized. You make the simulacrum use his wish to wish for wealth, so it makes the roll for wish burnout instead of you. Since it can't recover spell slots anyway, there's no lose here.

Edit: You do this on loop until you have all the wealth you want.

Ah okay. But doesn't Simulacrum take 12 hours to cast, if I read it correctly? (and you can't speed it up with wish because then the combo breaks), so let's say you can loop this twice a day.

I read elsewhere in this thread that you can wish for something worth around 25K in gold.

So that is 25K of gold per day, and you're working 12-hour days for that. I'm not sure what a gold coin translates to in modern money, but offhand that sounds like Gates/Bezos/Musk income levels.
So yes, that's a lot of money, but hardly infinite. (Not to mention a lot of hard work, spending 12 hours each day casting the same spell over and over.)

Or, to put it into fantasy perspective: Ask yourself how much money is in Smaug's hoard, and how long would your wizard have to loop this simulacrum-wish combo to match that?

(Or did I overlook some part of the combo that negates this 12-hour casting time per loop iteration?)

[Doug Lampert]

Ah okay. But doesn't Simulacrum take 12 hours to cast, if I read it correctly? (and you can't speed it up with wish because then the combo breaks), so let's say you can loop this twice a day.

I read elsewhere in this thread that you can wish for something worth around 25K in gold.

So that is 25K of gold per day, and you're working 12-hour days for that. I'm not sure what a gold coin translates to in modern money, but offhand that sounds like Gates/Bezos/Musk income levels.
So yes, that's a lot of money, but hardly infinite. (Not to mention a lot of hard work, spending 12 hours each day casting the same spell over and over.)

Or, to put it into fantasy perspective: Ask yourself how much money is in Smaug's hoard, and how long would your wizard have to loop this simulacrum-wish combo to match that?

(Or did I overlook some part of the combo that negates this 12-hour casting time per loop iteration?)

You are level 17, so you have spell slots at 7, 8, and 9. You burn 12 hours, and 1,500 GP in powdered ruby to make a Sim You, with no 7th level slot.

Sim You wishes for a ruby worth 25,000 GP, 1/3 chance it can never cast wish again, who cares. You recover slots. It powders the ruby. Then it uses its level EIGHT slot, plus a tiny fraction of the ruby dust it now has, to make a sim with slots of level 7-9.

That sim wishes for a big chunk of gold. Then uses its level 7 slot to make a sim. Which wishes for wealth, and then makes a Sim You (NOT a Sim Sim, it sims the original caster who now has all slots). It still has its level 8 slot. Sim it wishes for money, and then makes a Sim, it still has its level 8 slot.

After the first Sim, you are never making another, your growing army of sims are making all the later sims. And, as a free side benefit to gaining nearly 50,000 GP a day for doing nothing much, you ALSO get an army of slaves with the level 8 slot and all the lower level slots of a level 17 caster.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ah okay. But doesn't Simulacrum take 12 hours to cast, if I read it correctly? (and you can't speed it up with wish because then the combo breaks), so let's say you can loop this twice a day.

I read elsewhere in this thread that you can wish for something worth around 25K in gold.

So that is 25K of gold per day, and you're working 12-hour days for that. I'm not sure what a gold coin translates to in modern money, but offhand that sounds like Gates/Bezos/Musk income levels.
So yes, that's a lot of money, but hardly infinite. (Not to mention a lot of hard work, spending 12 hours each day casting the same spell over and over.)

Or, to put it into fantasy perspective: Ask yourself how much money is in Smaug's hoard, and how long would your wizard have to loop this simulacrum-wish combo to match that?

(Or did I overlook some part of the combo that negates this 12-hour casting time per loop iteration?)

The true "infinite loop" one goes like this:

* Have wish and an open 9th level slot.
* Hardcast simulacrum, targeting yourself.
* Order that simulacrum to wish for cash (in the form of ruby dust), then hardcast simulacrum, targeting you, and give the same order to its creations.
* Wait a while.

Every 12 hours, you get a new wish cast. Note, because we actually want to use the wish for other things, this is slower than the normal infinite loop, which uses the sim's wishes to cast simulacrum, speeding things up tremendously.

At the end of N 12 hour segments, you have [(25000 - 1500)*N - 1500] gold in ruby dust. Why ruby dust? Because that's the component for the spell, so you need that to keep it going. That extra 1500 was the first one cast. So in 7 days of downtime (which you can spend all but the first 12 hours doing whatever, as long as you don't leave your room), that ends up producing 3.275 million GP. And now have over a dozen simulacra standing around waiting for orders, although they're down [1 7th and their 8th or 2 7th ] and 9th level slots. (7 because you cast sim that way, the 9th because of wish, and the other 7th or 8th due to hard-casting sim themselves. And wish stress doesn't matter (barring AL rules), because each sim is only casting it once.

So it's slow infinity, but it's unbounded.

Edit: swordsaged.

[ironkid]

Let me ask, are you kind of a stingy DM? I'm not trying to be insulting, just asking because you have to be level 17 to cast wish. At that point I kind of expect the PCs to either have or be able to get sufficient wealth to do nearly anything they want anyway.

Kinda the opposite - at level 6 they're so loaded with magic items, attunement limit is getting to be a concern. Such a convenient way to get unlimited cash would be highly problematic for the game I'm running tho; I wont care if they become absurdly rich, but pretty much infinite resources is another thing entirely, and they're not dumb enough to flood the market and make gold worthless, and even if they did, it would be quite a hassle to handle that crisis in an entertaining, interesting way when they could be exploring the planes and stuff.

[Sigreid]

Kinda the opposite - at level 6 they're so loaded with magic items, attunement limit is getting to be a concern. Such a convenient way to get unlimited cash would be highly problematic for the game I'm running tho; I wont care if they become absurdly rich, but pretty much infinite resources is another thing entirely, and they're not dumb enough to flood the market and make gold worthless, and even if they did, it would be quite a hassle to handle that crisis in an entertaining, interesting way when they could be exploring the planes and stuff.

Ok. Though I still think at that level the time/effort/risk ROI would be better for the party to go take out major wealthy monsters.

[Psyren]

If they're drowning in magic items at level 6 what the heck does the player want infinite money for? To dive into it like Scrooge McDuck? :smalltongue:

[subtledoctor]

Seems simple to me: now matter how real it seems, no matter that it can cast spells,* a Simulacrum is still a product of illusion magic. Therefore, according to a pretty simple textualist interpretation, anything that results from a simulacrum's Wish is also the product of illusion magic. This amounts to casting an illusion spell against yourself.

So give the player what they want, let it work just fine for a while. But secretly roll for Wish feedback against the player, and make rolls every day for the player to disbelieve the illusion. (But, roll with disadvantage, because they clearly really want to believe this will work.) When the player succeeds in the check to disbelieve it, have it all suddenly disappear and apply the Wish-stress feedback. The player, swimming through gp like Scrooge McDuck, will suddenly fall to the ground in a big empty vault. Every merchant they paid when buying stuff will suddenly realize they were swindled and will be out for blood. The party's reputation drops to the basement. Et cetera.

* Yes simulacra can cast spells with real effect, but my headcanon on this is: spells happen when certain kinds of symbols or patterns trigger a magical effect. This can result from particular hand formations, arcane phrases, musical arrangements, whatever. Anything that can make patterns of symbols can theoretically make patterns of symbols that result in magic. So a simulacrum can do that. But once you cast Wish, then you have to wish the Wish. That requires cognition, desires, intelligence, caution, wisdom, to get right. All of that stuff, in a simulacrum, is illusory. So therefore what it wished for is illusory as well.

[subtledoctor]

Alternative: let it work a few times. But as someone described above, the Wish spell is like a firehouse of magical energy, compared to the trickle that most spells use. Channeling that amount of reality-altering magic through a simulacrum is potentially a Very Bad Idea.

So after a couple attempts at this, as the simulacrum is about to cast the wish, tell the party they see a twinkle in its eye and then have it quickly shout "I wish I was real!" And bam - suddenly there is a real copy of the PC in the world, with a burning desire to avoid being an illusory sacrificial meat shield/spellcasting servant for the player. It will run away and try to live its own life. And maybe from this point forward, the player can no longer cast Wish or Simulacrum. The energy of the Wish spell is still tangled up in maintaining the reality of the clone, so it cannot be tapped anymore. And every time the player casts Simulacrum it just teleports the clone to the caster's location - which will probably be very inconvenient for the clone and could make it very angry! The clone will have no interest in helping out in some battle it has no interest in, and might even turn against the party (especially if it happens repeatedly).

But as inconvenient as it might be, the simulacrum is a Real Boy now, so getting rid of it carries all of the moral and reputational implications of grabbing a random townsperson and openly murdering them in cold blood. The player flew too close to thee sun, and now has to deal with the odd and inconvenient consequences of trying to misuse very powerful magic. This is a very common trope that cna be enjoyable to inject into a game. (Better than turning the player into a half-human, half-insect monstrosity when they cast Teleport, surely.)

[ender241]

A player of mine has stated quite clearly he plans to - eventually - use the simulacrum + wish combo to make infinite gold. This would certainly be hurtful to my game, and I'm at a loss of how to handle it. I don't think the "please don't do it" route would work - if it is possible, why wouldn't he? A potential solution would be that whenever his simulacrum cast wish, the owner of the simulacrum gets the wish stress thing.

I'd like to read your opinions about how to handle this.

It's only possible if you say it's possible. That's the simple answer here. Not every spell interaction is going to be spelled out in RAW and so it falls to the DM to say what works and what doesn't. You can reference the AL rule if you think it might help but imo it's not even necessary. Your game, your rules.

However, if you go the route a few people have suggested with letting it work a few times and then having it go catastrophically wrong, be careful. The player at least deserves a warning. They told you they planned to do this specifically, so if you say nothing they will assume it will 100% work. A simple "sure, but it may not work out exactly how you think. Be careful." would probably suffice. If you let them waste their time/resources or something as drastic as removing their ability to cast simulacrum they may get upset (and honestly, with pretty good reason) if they weren't at least warned.

[GeoffWatson]

Ban simulacrum.
There's way too much game-breaking bull**** available there.
Much worse than making tons of money.

High-level wizards are still really powerful.

[Contrast]

Kinda the opposite - at level 6

While I agree with a lot of the other stuff said in this thread and the attitude of the player is somewhat concerning, I'd also suggest that a potential solution here is just...not have the campaign go til level 17?

If they're level 6 now you can tell whatever story you like without ever having to worry about this. If they ever do reach that point, infinite money will be the least of your concerns with regard to keeping the players challenged and if thats all they want to use it for then they haven't really grasped the possibilities.


I'm of the opinion that Simulacrum on its own would probably be a reasonably popular spell even if it was a 9th level spell itself so I'd feel no compunction about houseruling the interaction with Wish away entirely.

[Schwann145]

Working with no details of the DM's game world, it's hard to see how this could possibly even be a concern.

A level 17+ party walks over an Ancient Dragon with minimal difficulty. As someone above asked, how much treasure did Smaug have? Basically enough to make an entire dwarven kingdom come back to life and make the dwarves (and one hobbit) who did it wealthy beyond anyone's wildest dreams?

How wealthy is the average noble in said game? Probably worth multiple millions of gold, with some hand in an industry that keeps that income going. How much wealth is the royalty worth? Probably not as much as the nobility, but still vast sums I'm sure.

How does allowing the players to reach equal levels of wealth break the game in any meaningful way?
I believe this is a concern over nothing; mountains out of molehills, as they say.

[Telok]

I never did run that simulation, but it would have been interesting, and could make for an interesting antagonist, likely someone driven a bit mad by all the surge effects.

PM me or link the details, I'll see if I can whip up a model this week.

[Greywander]

PM me or link the details, I'll see if I can whip up a model this week.
Here's the wild magic system: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g9G0MwlSF3E6HFDJizb6lUH2gjC4PFSiV63dMjciMW4/edit?usp=sharing

I haven't touched the doc in a while, so some things may be in need of updating, but I think it's pretty much done anyway. There are a number of precautions the wizard would take, some of which I've already mentioned. Performing the tests in a demiplane, keeping a paladin nearby for the save bonuses and healing, having a cleric on standby for resurrection. Definitely they would take the Controlled Chaos wild magic feature so they'd have two shots at getting the effect they want, or at least be able to choose the less severe effect. There's probably more I haven't thought of that they could do to protect themselves. Clone would help, but might not clear every negative effect, nor would resurrection.

[Incorrect]

All my D&D worlds have an organisation of wizards, whom care deeply about cosmic balance and economic status quo.
They will absolutely use any and all means to stop troublemakers from ruining the world.
These wizards live by the coast...

[nickl_2000]

If they're drowning in magic items at level 6 what the heck does the player want infinite money for? To dive into it like Scrooge McDuck? :smalltongue:

YES! Who wouldn't want that?!?

[KorvinStarmast]

1) Go the AL route, where a Simulacrum can't make a Simulacrum of itself, and if a Simulacrum casts Wish then you deal with the consequences Which for reasons that I don't understand was never put into Sage Advice nor in an errata. (It's a reasonable approach).

Let him use the exploit, and let him lean into the exploit, but weave that into the world. He'll most likely use Wish to make an object worth about 25,000 gold. Due to the wording, you're not stealing the object from anyone, you're creating that object out of nothing. This is where adapting a cosmic rule of TNSTAAFL1 is helpful to a DM: nothing is created ex nihilo, it all comes from somewhere. (In older editions of D&D the successful casting of a magical spell drew energy from positive, negative, and elemental planes).

The ruby/ruby dust is coming from the elemental plane of Earth, for example, of from a {powerful/rich being's} treasure horde. If enough of this gets removed someone will notice, and here's a plot hook/adventure prompt: "what have you done with all of the rubies you took from me?"

Most people don't have the gold to buy a 25k gem, he'll need to make something useful instead. This also. And for that matter, this is probably the most compelling way to prevent making the bad-to-non-existent D&D economic model get even worse.

However, because he's making his ships instantaneously without any major cost, now he's competing with proper shipwrights. They could bring their own economic power to bear against him.
The ship builder's guild may hire some assassins ... :smallbiggrin:

You do this on loop until you have all the wealth you want. The presumption being that the second and third order simulacrums also do as you, not the other simulacrum, direct. More interesting to me is the interpretation that each sim is loyal/friendly to the caster/sim who made them, and a game of "telephone" occurs as you tell your sim to tell their created sim to tell their created sim what you need done. Chances for things to go wrong, comically or tragically, abound.
Or if (as an example) sim number six gets whacked, all sims descended from that one no longer have a chain of command/loyalty, and you've got some free agents running about. This also creates a fun adventure prompt. You have to hunt them down and dispose of them before they do harm.

Given that Simulacrum is an illusion spell, and part of the spell components includes pieces of the creature you're duplicating (e.g. hair, fingernails, etc.), I think it's safe to say that the simulacrum is not a real creature, but rather some extension of the creature they are a copy of. I think they are a construct, which is a creature type, and is thus as real as anything is in the game. (Either an errata or a sage advice cleared this up. AFB at the mo).

It can only target beasts and humanoids. RIP fey and other non-humanoid wizards. Liches can't make simulacra of themselves, apparently.
The simulacrum is friendly to the caster of the spell, not the creature that it is a duplicate of.
See my game of telephone above.
As to your next bit, the DM has to ask themself: is that the campaign/game I want to run? If not, then nip it in the bud.

But doesn't Simulacrum take 12 hours to cast, if I read it correctly? And during that time, who might or might not interrupt the caster? The sim I created at level 14 (Lore Bard) was made on a remote mountain top (using ice/snow up there as a raw material) and I brought along our 14th level paladin to watch my back as I did so. We did not engage in Wish Sim cheese when I got to 18 since the DM (PhoenixPhyre) wasn't interested in that, and for that matter, nor was I. I did get to play some duets, though, with my sim, at a performance during a political fund raiser for the sorcerer in our party in a major city. :smallbiggrin:

The true "infinite loop" one goes like this:

* Have wish and an open 9th level slot.
* Hardcast simulacrum, targeting yourself.
* Order that simulacrum to wish for cash (in the form of ruby dust), then hardcast simulacrum, targeting you, and give the same order to its creations.
* Wait a while.

Every 12 hours, you get a new wish cast. Note, because we actually want to use the wish for other things, this is slower than the normal infinite loop, which uses the sim's wishes to cast simulacrum, speeding things up tremendously.

At the end of N 12 hour segments, you have [(25000 - 1500)*N - 1500] gold in ruby dust. Why ruby dust? Because that's the component for the spell, so you need that to keep it going. That extra 1500 was the first one cast. So in 7 days of downtime (which you can spend all but the first 12 hours doing whatever, as long as you don't leave your room), that ends up producing 3.275 million GP. And now have over a dozen simulacra standing around waiting for orders, although they're down [1 7th and their 8th or 2 7th ] and 9th level slots. (7 because you cast sim that way, the 9th because of wish, and the other 7th or 8th due to hard-casting sim themselves. And wish stress doesn't matter (barring AL rules), because each sim is only casting it once. That's the kicker. I think that's why the AL ruling was made the way that it was.

Seems simple to me: no matter how real it seems, no matter that it can cast spells,* a Simulacrum is still a product of illusion magic. Therefore, according to a pretty simple textualist interpretation, anything that results from a simulacrum's Wish is also the product of illusion magic. This amounts to casting an illusion spell against yourself. I'd suggest another look at the PHB treatment of the Illusion school of magic a bit more closely, not all spells (invisibility for example) the same regardless of the school that they are in. (Though your idea is an interesting one)

Yes simulacra can cast spells with real effect, but my headcanon {snip head canon} So therefore what it wished for is illusory as well. Unfortunately, the sim is a real creature: a construct. That was cleared up as noted above. (Though your idea has some merit).

So after a couple attempts at this, as the simulacrum is about to cast the wish, tell the party they see a twinkle in its eye and then have it quickly shout "I wish I was real!" And bam - suddenly there is a real copy of the PC in the world, with a burning desire to avoid being an illusory sacrificial meat shield/spellcasting servant for the player. Interesting twist, and perhaps consistent with the 'it's a real creature (construct) and thus prone to developing its own motives, etc.

Ban simulacrum. That's not fun, though. My DM was able to make a ruling that kept the spell in the game and prevented cheese. (For example, my sim was useful (since I had a medallion of non detection) in presenting that I was visibly somewhere (in a city where it was known that I was a friend of the queen) while I was in fact elsewhere. She also acted as a the weapons trainer (proficient with such weapons as a bard is) for the crew of the ships that our party owned. :smallbiggrin:

All my D&D worlds have an organisation of wizards, whom care deeply about cosmic balance and economic status quo.
They will absolutely use any and all means to stop troublemakers from ruining the world.
These wizards live by the coast... Heh, sounds a bit like Gygax (Mordenkainen) and the Circle of Eight.

------------------

1 There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - this concept is rooted in RL physics, and informed the way magic worked in the books by Philip K **** (beginning with The Dragon and the George) where the old wizard now and again had to consult with the Accounting Department (basically, to balance the metaphysical books).

[Burley]

Question: You said the player intends to do this, eventually? How long from now is this eventuality? Long enough that the character may lose interest, after having adventured enough to have more wealth than they'd already dreamed?

Anyway, let it happen. The blessing of being told in advance means you can plan for it.

Your wizard spends, what, months maybe, casting Wish and Simulacrum and summoning huge hunks of gold ore totaling 25k in value. Eventually, somebody will notice. Maybe some Dao are noticing patches disappearing from their gardens. Or, some Modrons don't like having their building materials conjured away. Maybe some Dwarven kings track it down with their finely attuned Dwarven noses, able to smell the ores they dug up and want back.

Also, if this is the Wizards end game, will they continue to be a PC or will they become an NPC? This is the kinds of mad wizard stuff that demiplanes are created for. And, I'd say, if their goal is to create clones of themselves to take the magical backlash of wishing for wealth, there's gonna be some madness creeping in.

[Sigreid]

Might be easier to abuse Simulacrum by forming some friendships with a few other powerful wizards > researching who the most efficient adventurers in the world and possibly history are > use wish to make a simulacrum dream team > send them out on adventures > profit!

[KorvinStarmast]

{snip Sim Cheese} Interesting take here on treating the HD for HP recovery like spell slots on a simulacrum, which are exhausted once expended (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/196381/22566). (Or one can as you do restrict HP recovery to just what's in the spell description). FWIW.

Might be easier to abuse Simulacrum by forming some friendships with a few other powerful wizards > researching who the most efficient adventurers in the world and possibly history are > use wish to make a simulacrum dream team > send them out on adventures > profit! A party full of glass cannons. (all have half HP). :smallwink:

[Sigreid]

A party full of glass cannons. (all have half HP). :smallwink:

Could also copy the best thieves and send them out. If they get caught, so what?

[subtledoctor]

And, I'd say, if their goal is to create clones of themselves to take the magical backlash of wishing for wealth, there's gonna be some madness creeping in.

This is a really nice idea too. I don’t know what the ins and outs of 5E Simulacrum are, whether the caster has any awareness of what hapoens to the sim. But I think back to Multiple Man in the X-Men - every time one of his clones dies or otherwise disappears, he gets to recall the clone’s experiences. If the Simulacrum spell has a taste of this, then even if you ignore the AL ruling and let Wish stress affect the clone, well, when all those clones get reabsorbed into the caster’s cognition it could put some incredible strain on the caster’s mind.

But then, having a PC go insane might not be fun for the player. (Though it might be!) My personal approach would probably be to go down the road of independent-sim shenanigans. In fact “reality-altering magic + simulacrum = independent-sim shenanigans” would probably be a hard and fast rule in any game I DM...

[warty goblin]

The true "infinite loop" one goes like this:

* Have wish and an open 9th level slot.
* Hardcast simulacrum, targeting yourself.
* Order that simulacrum to wish for cash (in the form of ruby dust), then hardcast simulacrum, targeting you, and give the same order to its creations.
* Wait a while.

Every 12 hours, you get a new wish cast. Note, because we actually want to use the wish for other things, this is slower than the normal infinite loop, which uses the sim's wishes to cast simulacrum, speeding things up tremendously.

At the end of N 12 hour segments, you have [(25000 - 1500)*N - 1500] gold in ruby dust. Why ruby dust? Because that's the component for the spell, so you need that to keep it going. That extra 1500 was the first one cast. So in 7 days of downtime (which you can spend all but the first 12 hours doing whatever, as long as you don't leave your room), that ends up producing 3.275 million GP. And now have over a dozen simulacra standing around waiting for orders, although they're down [1 7th and their 8th or 2 7th ] and 9th level slots. (7 because you cast sim that way, the 9th because of wish, and the other 7th or 8th due to hard-casting sim themselves. And wish stress doesn't matter (barring AL rules), because each sim is only casting it once.

So it's slow infinity, but it's unbounded.

Edit: swordsaged.

I think it's more accurate to say they have the dust from pulverized rubies worth 3.275 million GP. That in no way translates to the purchasing power of 3.275 million GP, because gemstone powder is way, way less valuable than gemstones (as a thought experiment, consider proposing marriage with a small bag of smashed diamonds and figure how well that goes). I suppose maybe they could get into supplying abrasives to the metalworking industry, though I think rubies might be a bit soft for that...

Even if they get whole rubies, the sales problem persists. Like once you've sold every monarch their third set of Wizard Brand Crown Jewels with the limited edition Serial Number and Certificate of Authenticity, it's gonna get difficult to move the merch, because most people don't need lots of gemstones and aren't going to sink all their disposable income into them, still less stones that are now about as rare as taverns with giant rats in the basement.

Though it would be very handy for any evil wizards in the vicinity who wanted to jumpstart their own clone army...

[JackPhoenix]

What, exactly, is a problem with having infinite gold? Gold, in itself, is pretty useless. Even if you have infinite gold, there's only finite amount of things gold can buy, not everything can be bought with gold, and that's before going into inflation caused by flooding market with such amount of gold.

[KorvinStarmast]

What, exactly, is a problem with having infinite gold? King Midas would gladly take that so that he could gold plate things rather than having things that he touches turn to gold. :smallbiggrin:
infinite gold {thinking from the shenanigans angle}

At some point doesn't it cause the planet to wobble? :smalltongue:

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think it's more accurate to say they have the dust from pulverized rubies worth 3.275 million GP. That in no way translates to the purchasing power of 3.275 million GP, because gemstone powder is way, way less valuable than gemstones (as a thought experiment, consider proposing marriage with a small bag of smashed diamonds and figure how well that goes). I suppose maybe they could get into supplying abrasives to the metalworking industry, though I think rubies might be a bit soft for that...

Even if they get whole rubies, the sales problem persists. Like once you've sold every monarch their third set of Wizard Brand Crown Jewels with the limited edition Serial Number and Certificate of Authenticity, it's gonna get difficult to move the merch, because most people don't need lots of gemstones and aren't going to sink all their disposable income into them, still less stones that are now about as rare as taverns with giant rats in the basement.

Though it would be very handy for any evil wizards in the vicinity who wanted to jumpstart their own clone army...

I don't disagree, but...

Very few games are going to actually care about the economic simulation part.

I actually set things up in the main part of my setting so the Adventurers Guild (the international body that regulates adventurers, at least the official ones) sets all adventuring-facing prices (both sale and purchase), promising merchants a fixed amount of profit in exchange for taking part and not going outside the system. That guarantees that the economy stays mostly stable--the Guild repurchases the treasure (etc) and doles it out slowly to avoid inflation or deflation. Yes, that's a massive cartel. Backed by a bunch of really really powerful people with a vested interest in things staying the same. Not just former adventurers, but nations, powerful dragons, etc. Including the setting's only international bank (run by a bunch of paranoid goblins with heavy magical backing).

In-fiction, someone trying to break things is going to face the entire might of the Guild on their doorstep, plus will find that no one is willing to buy or sell to him. He can go elsewhere, but those areas have their challenges as well. And if he tries to go extra-planar and engage in shenanigans there, the Astral banking cartel (which doesn't use anything as crass as physical coins; the astral economy is based on fragments of soul-energy/worship) will take great pleasure in crushing that poor upstart mortal.

Out of fiction, it doesn't work due to the limits I've put in on simulacrum.

[Burley]

But then, having a PC go insane might not be fun for the player. (Though it might be!) My personal approach would probably be to go down the road of independent-sim shenanigans. In fact “reality-altering magic + simulacrum = independent-sim shenanigans” would probably be a hard and fast rule in any game I DM...

Yeah, that's why I brought up the character going from PC to NPC. Sometimes, especially when a character stops doing things that allow the player to play the game, I talk to the player about letting the character go. I had a payer whose character was a part of a guerilla resistance group, but realized he could do more good by returning to his wealthy family and becoming a leader to his people. The character wasn't really doing PC type stuff anymore, y'know?

I think, if the player's character's goal is to sit in a room and conjure "infinite" gold, they're not really doing PC stuff, anymore. That's when, as a DM, I'd talk to the player about their character: "Do they have other goals? What will they do now that they've attained this goal? What will their relationship with their allies look like now? If this was why the wizard existed, is it time to make a new character? How would you suggest I handle the character as an NPC? Should they come back as an ally, a villain, or not at all?"

If the player wants to keep playing as their wizard, that's cool. "Let's just figure out how far they're going to take this gold thing, because, eventually, somebody will take notice."

[JLandan]

Yeah, that's why I brought up the character going from PC to NPC. Sometimes, especially when a character stops doing things that allow the player to play the game, I talk to the player about letting the character go. I had a payer whose character was a part of a guerilla resistance group, but realized he could do more good by returning to his wealthy family and becoming a leader to his people. The character wasn't really doing PC type stuff anymore, y'know?

I think, if the player's character's goal is to sit in a room and conjure "infinite" gold, they're not really doing PC stuff, anymore. That's when, as a DM, I'd talk to the player about their character: "Do they have other goals? What will they do now that they've attained this goal? What will their relationship with their allies look like now? If this was why the wizard existed, is it time to make a new character? How would you suggest I handle the character as an NPC? Should they come back as an ally, a villain, or not at all?"

If the player wants to keep playing as their wizard, that's cool. "Let's just figure out how far they're going to take this gold thing, because, eventually, somebody will take notice."

It does beg the question of where all that dragon horde came from in the first place. Or how wizards and simulacrum become dragon poop.

Maybe there's finite gold and the crazy wizards are just trading it back and forth.

[Schwann145]

Now that we're on page 3, I think it's time OP answered the question of why so much gold is problematic in his game?
Someone is going to be the Elon Musk of the world. Why can't it be a player? Especially when we're talking about being at the level where the game starts to fall apart and retirement is the only logical path forward.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Now that we're on page 3, I think it's time OP answered the question of why so much gold is problematic in his game?
Someone is going to be the Elon Musk of the world. Why can't it be a player? Especially when we're talking about being at the level where the game starts to fall apart and retirement is the only logical path forward.

For me, it shatters verisimilitude. Because if it were that easy, someone would have already done it. Lots of someones, in fact. And that produces a completely different world than the one presented. Which means it can't be that easy.

[Schwann145]

For me, it shatters verisimilitude. Because if it were that easy, someone would have already done it. Lots of someones, in fact. And that produces a completely different world than the one presented. Which means it can't be that easy.

I think the answer to this is simply: everyone capable of doing it probably already has done it. And the number of those people is very very few, because not many NPCs are reaching level 17. :smallcool:

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think the answer to this is simply: everyone capable of doing it probably already has done it. And the number of those people is very very few, because not many NPCs are reaching level 17. :smallcool:

Only takes one or two to end up with a radically different world. That's the nature of unbounded wealth. Which different world doesn't exist, at least in any printed setting.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Only takes one or two to end up with a radically different world. That's the nature of unbounded wealth. Which different world doesn't exist, at least in any printed setting.

Our Sorcerer could do it if he wanted to, and it would be pretty anticlimactic if he was that kind of person. We're killing an Ancient Red Dragon because we need its resources (money and magic items) but since our Sorcerer is apparently able to cast Simulacrum without wish (something worked out with the DM but the specifics of which I don't know) we could avoid that potential death scenario and just print gold, enough to purchase the necessary magic items if we can find them and fund all of our long term goals with no risk to ourselves.

Fortunately our Sorcerer is not that kind of player, he would rather fight the dragon.

Honestly, Waterdeep: Dragon Heist is a good indication of what an excess of wealth means for your party, if it were possible to have that amount of gold on a whim it would completely destabilize the city, many factions would come after you for that ability and people would be expecting favors. It also showcases that even if there were a host of spellcasters theoretically able to do this (there are likely over a dozen in Waterdeep who are 17th level+ Wizards, no less than 3 of them fully statblocked) that there must be some reason they don't. Could be that Simulacrum isn't intended to scale infinitely like this, could be that the designers didn't intend for the penalty of Wish to be circumvented in this way, could even be that even if they recognize this they expect a bit of good faith between groups to decide whether this is the type of thing they want to engage in.

I'd say don't allow it (though I'm also partial to the "real boy" simulacrum fiasco, Manshoon is a lesson in arcane hubris for good reason) but if you must allow it to make the player happy, make clear that the floodgates are now open and NPC spellcasters aren't any less clever than you are. The campaign will probably end before any unsolvable consequences occur.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not to mention that the level of wealth that the OP's combo makes possible attracts murder hobo gangs. :smallyuk:

[CapnWildefyr]

For me, I have a question about a sim casting wish:

Can a construct wish for anything? I mean, the spell is called wish, you have to have a desire to wish for something, right? Why would speaking the words "I wish for 25,000 gp" be enough? If it was, everyone would do it, wizard or not. There has to be more to the spell, the imposition of will and desire onto magic. Do constructs have desires?

In the sim spell description it says the sim has your stats, but it does not say the sim has sentience explicitly. Now, constructs can have sentience (it's written in the MM) but it's not automatic, as it is for humanoids. If we grant true sentience to a sim are we granting more to the spell than is written in its description? Whether a simulacrum is just smart programming is something you can rule on as a DM. You can rule it is not truly sentient as easily as you can rule it is sentient. If it's not sentient, it literally can't wish for anything. (It wouldn't be logical-- it wouldn't compute-- like Roger Korby.)

So I think it's an easy arbitration (although perhaps 'heresy') to rule that no, a simulacrum can't cast any kind of wish spell.

[sithlordnergal]

For me, it shatters verisimilitude. Because if it were that easy, someone would have already done it. Lots of someones, in fact. And that produces a completely different world than the one presented. Which means it can't be that easy.

I mean, there are two easy answers:

1) People have done it in the past, pissed off/destabalized a few too many places/people, and eventually were killed for it. That, or they became the massive businesses you see in the world.


2) Most places and people simply can't afford to buy something worth 25k. To put it in perspective, it costs 10,000 gp to buy a single sailing ship, about 40gp/day to man it with a 20 member crew. Unless you're dealing with some major corporation, or potentially a government, you're not gonna be able to sell your 25k item to people. You could try to make a 25k Warship and sell it to some country...but you run into an issue. Since the item was made by magic, Anti-Magic Field makes it wink out of existence. So if you're trying to sell Wish made ships, you really need to give a "buyer beware" sort of warning.

[ProsecutorGodot]

2) Most places and people simply can't afford to buy something worth 25k. To put it in perspective, it costs 10,000 gp to buy a single sailing ship, about 40gp/day to man it with a 20 member crew. Unless you're dealing with some major corporation, or potentially a government, you're not gonna be able to sell your 25k item to people. You could try to make a 25k Warship and sell it to some country...but you run into an issue. Since the item was made by magic, Anti-Magic Field makes it wink out of existence. So if you're trying to sell Wish made ships, you really need to give a "buyer beware" sort of warning.

Not really much of a problem, the item being wished for is a 25k Ruby, which you powder into dust and can sell in whatever desired quantity you need. Even if the item depreciates 90% in value through the process you're still making a profit.

The PHB leads us to believe that gems are fairly easy to sell as well, they're one of the handful of items listed specifically and they retain their full value when sold in the marketplace, they're basically as good as coin.

[sithlordnergal]

Not really much of a problem, the item being wished for is a 25k Ruby, which you powder into dust and can sell in whatever desired quantity you need. Even if the item depreciates 90% in value through the process you're still making a profit.

The PHB leads us to believe that gems are fairly easy to sell as well, they're one of the handful of items listed specifically and they retain their full value when sold in the marketplace, they're basically as good as coin.

True, but that gets dealt with pretty easily as more and more ruby dust is added to the economy. Eventually your 25k ruby dust is going to be pretty worthless because there's so much of it. Now you can do this with every available gem, but that slow price decrease due to having too much gem dust in the market will happen to everything. That said, you could lean into this as a player and DM, and allow the player to become a merchant of sorts. They can provide component shops with easy components, thereby muscling in on whatever group controls the market.

Boom, we now have an adventure. Maybe even against another wizard doing the same exact thing to sell spell components.

[Sigreid]

Not really much of a problem, the item being wished for is a 25k Ruby, which you powder into dust and can sell in whatever desired quantity you need. Even if the item depreciates 90% in value through the process you're still making a profit.

The PHB leads us to believe that gems are fairly easy to sell as well, they're one of the handful of items listed specifically and they retain their full value when sold in the marketplace, they're basically as good as coin.

Provided you can find someone with both the money and the desire to have the item.

[ProsecutorGodot]

True, but that gets dealt with pretty easily as more and more ruby dust is added to the economy. Eventually your 25k ruby dust is going to be pretty worthless because there's so much of it. Now you can do this with every available gem, but that slow price decrease due to having too much gem dust in the market will happen to everything. That said, you could lean into this as a player and DM, and allow the player to become a merchant of sorts. They can provide component shops with easy components, thereby muscling in on whatever group controls the market.

Boom, we now have an adventure. Maybe even against another wizard doing the same exact thing to sell spell components.

The player might only notice something is going off when the Ruby they wish for becomes progressively larger, eventually they're going to question why Wish is giving them a comically large Ruby.


Provided you can find someone with both the money and the desire to have the item.
Ruby Dust is a valuable magical reagent, there's plenty market for it as long as spellcasters exist. True on the second part though, flood the economy with enough ruby dust and eventually they'll have more than they need.

[Schwann145]

Couple things no one has addressed and I can't for the life of me imagine why:

•Nobles and particularly successful merchants are going to be worth multiple millions of gold. Where is this silly idea that no one will be able to afford a 25k gem coming from? There will be plenty of rich and gaudy nobles willing to buy that kind of jewelry to flaunt.
•Spell components can get very expensive, and you don't need to maximize the value of the Wish to make a profit. Glyph of Warding, Magic Circle, Legend Lore, etc. Not to mention there's nothing stopping a Simulacrum from risking a non-bullet point wish. Get a bunch of gems worth 1000 each (Agates for Awaken, Diamonds for Resurrection, or any kind for Planar Binding. Or wish up 25k worth of raw materials to use with Fabricate and make 25 silver mirrors each worth 1000g.

[GeoffWatson]

Couple things no one has addressed and I can't for the life of me imagine why:

•Nobles and particularly successful merchants are going to be worth multiple millions of gold. Where is this silly idea that no one will be able to afford a 25k gem coming from? There will be plenty of rich and gaudy nobles willing to buy that kind of jewelry to flaunt.
•Spell components can get very expensive, and you don't need to maximize the value of the Wish to make a profit. Glyph of Warding, Magic Circle, Legend Lore, etc. Not to mention there's nothing stopping a Simulacrum from risking a non-bullet point wish. Get a bunch of gems worth 1000 each (Agates for Awaken, Diamonds for Resurrection, or any kind for Planar Binding. Or wish up 25k worth of raw materials to use with Fabricate and make 25 silver mirrors each worth 1000g.

If there are people around with millions of gold (I doubt this is true), just make simulacra of them and have them empty out their banks and give it all to you.

It's not just yourself that you can make copies of. With wish-simulacrum you can make copies of anyone.
An enemy is up to something? Make a copy of them, have them tell you all their plans and secrets.
Need some clerical spells? Make a copy of the most famous cleric around.
The most beautiful woman in the world is kidnapped? Make several copies so that Paris, Menelaus, and anyone else who wants her can have a Helen.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Couple things no one has addressed and I can't for the life of me imagine why:

•Nobles and particularly successful merchants are going to be worth multiple millions of gold. Where is this silly idea that no one will be able to afford a 25k gem coming from? There will be plenty of rich and gaudy nobles willing to buy that kind of jewelry to flaunt.
Where did you get the idea that they're worth millions of gold? Sure, perhaps if you include their residence and every little bit and bob in it you'd have maybe 1 or 2, but "millions of gold" is actually pretty unrealistic even for nobility to have.

Remember, the titular Hoard of Dragons is only 500k gold. Not even 1 million, several members of nobility, a powerful evil Archmage and a crime lord Beholder are after this sum of money because they can't just make it appear it and they don't have it lying around.

This fund was collected over a period of 10 years through embezzlement from the previous open lord of waterdeep, Dagult Neverember. 10 years of funneling taxes and government funding from what is ostensibly the wealthiest city in the forgotten realms, a staggering 500k gold, not even remotely close to multiple millions and that's from stealing money from as many people as possible.

The Cassalanter's are perhaps the best sign that nobility doesn't simply have money waiting to be used. They want this Hoard, not because they are penniless (anymore, in fact Asmodeus ensured they would be the most wealthy and influential noble family in Waterdeep, they literally own the banks) but because the deal involves paying Asmodeus 999,999 Gold which they could only do by bankrupting themselves.

The wealthiest and most powerful noble family in Waterdeep can only spare about a million gold without bankrupting themselves.
Spoiler free tangent off of the spoilered discussion - Ancient Dragons who have accumulated wealth for potentially centuries also don't have millions of gold across their hoard, Fizban's tells us that a Dragon of around 800 years would have a hoard of approximately 200,000gp with the potential to have it exceed just 1 million, given those extra centuries.

"multiple millions of gold" is not a concept in 5e that you're intended to reach. It's not a concept that any one thing in 5e reaches, not even Ancient Dragon's. Klauth, for example, is roughly 2200 years old and is listed as having two hoards... so only between 400k gp and 2 million at the top estimate.


•Spell components can get very expensive, and you don't need to maximize the value of the Wish to make a profit. Glyph of Warding, Magic Circle, Legend Lore, etc. Not to mention there's nothing stopping a Simulacrum from risking a non-bullet point wish. Get a bunch of gems worth 1000 each (Agates for Awaken, Diamonds for Resurrection, or any kind for Planar Binding. Or wish up 25k worth of raw materials to use with Fabricate and make 25 silver mirrors each worth 1000g.
Notably the Wish effect is a single object, we use this listed method rather than making a grocery list of things because it avoids the other drawback of Wish in that if you don't copy a spell or use the listed example the DM is given free reign to say "okay, you got everything on the list" while making their own list of people it was taken from.

[CapnWildefyr]

Building onto my previous post upthread...

I re-read what my MM defines for a construct, and nowhere does it refer to a construct as a "creature."

However, wish states: "Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires."

A Simulacrum is not a creature. Can't cast wish.

Constructs that are not sentient don't have desires. Can't cast wish. (A heuristic argument for a ruling, not RAW, but still ample justification to deny a course of action intended to break the game.)

But why infinite gold? I agree with the others who have pointed out that the player must want something and feel it can't be had any other way.

[KorvinStarmast]

The PHB leads us to believe that gems are fairly easy to sell as well, they're one of the handful of items listed specifically and they retain their full value when sold in the marketplace, they're basically as good as coin. That's how we treat them in our games. Either as reagents or as a lighter way to carry wealth.

Eventually your 25k ruby dust is going to be pretty worthless because there's so much of it. Then vary the gems you create. One day Amethyst. One day sapphire. One day Diamonds. (True Res needs a big one, eh?). One day Ruby.
But maybe this cheese exists and it's how teleportation circles (such ones as are in the game world) got built in the first place. (Depends on how 'high magic' the setting is).
In order to make a permanent teleportation circle per the PHB, it costs 365 days in a row x 50 GP per casting
(Components: V, M (rare chalks and inks infused with precious gems worth 50 gp, which the spell consumes) - thus 18,250 GP if you use 365 days per year, or 18,000 GP worth of gems if you use a 360 day year (which I think that FR does).
If you don't want to have to burn a wish each day for a year to cast that spell without components (which is how my Lore bard is building a Teleportation circle near the paladin's home town, now that she has retired from adventuring)
Using a few iterations of the sim/wish cheese, and having the big ruby/emerald/diamond/Topaz cut down/polished by your local jeweler (or PC ally who is proficient with jeweler's tools) into "worth 50 GP" smaller gems, provides the raw materials for that project to proceed and the wish to be kept for other uses by the caster.

Seems like a viable down time activity for a Tier 4 Wizard while he waits for the rest of the party to come back from vacation, castle building, proseltyzing, etc. and begins to hear about threats to the multiverse... and it may even stimulate the local economy.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Building onto my previous post upthread...

I re-read what my MM defines for a construct, and nowhere does it refer to a construct as a "creature."

Do you mean aside from the introduction, where it explains all of the statistics and what a creatures "type" means? It's right in there.


Constructs are made, not born. Some are programmed by their creators to follow a simple set of instructions, while others are imbued with sentience and capable of independent thought. Golems are the iconic constructs. Many creatures native to the outer plane of Mechanus, such as modrons, are constructs shaped from the raw material of the plane by the will of more powerful creatures.

We could also reference the Simulacrum spell, it's not exactly subtle.

The duplicate is a creature...

[CapnWildefyr]

Do you mean aside from the introduction, where it explains all of the statistics and what a creatures "type" means? It's right in there.

We could also reference the Simulacrum spell, it's not exactly subtle.

A sim is not from mechanus, and so what happens there does not matter.

I am away from my books but my PHB must be old, it reads "construct' not creature. However I see what you have posted on dnd beyond. Maybe that's one errata to ignore, but really simulacrum should read 'half your level' not 'half your hp maximum,' but that's another thread.

[KorvinStarmast]

... but really simulacrum should read 'half your level' not 'half your hp maximum,' but that's another thread. Yes, and if you'd like to send Crawford and Mearls (does he even work on this game anymore?) that suggestion, by all means do so.

And let me say this about that: if my lore bard's simulacrum had come out as a level 7 lore bard, not a level 14 one, I'd still get some use out of her. :smallbiggrin: She'd still have her feat, her stats, etc.

[ProsecutorGodot]

A sim is not from mechanus, and so what happens there does not matter.

I am away from my books but my PHB must be old, it reads "construct' not creature. However I see what you have posted on dnd beyond. Maybe that's one errata to ignore, but really simulacrum should read 'half your level' not 'half your hp maximum,' but that's another thread.

I will quote the entirety of Simulacrum for you.

LEVEL
7th
CASTING TIME
12 Hours
RANGE/AREA
Touch
COMPONENTS
V, S, M *
DURATION
Until Dispelled
SCHOOL
Illusion

You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct.

The simulacrum is friendly to you and creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat. The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities, nor can it regain expended spell slots.

If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 100 gp per hit point it regains. The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly.

If you cast this spell again, any duplicate you created with this spell is instantly destroyed.

* - (snow or ice in quantities sufficient to make a life-size copy of the duplicated creature; some hair, fingernail clippings, or other piece of that creature's body placed inside the snow or ice; and powdered ruby worth 1,500 gp, sprinkled over the duplicate and consumed by the spell)
My physical copy PHB uses the same wording and this particular line of Simulacrum has never been errata'd. For reference, here's what was errata'd into Simulacrum.

Simulacrum (p. 276). The following text is added to the final sentence of the first paragraph: “, except that it is a construct.”
The errata stopped you from casting Simulacrum on a Simulacrum, it doesn't mean they stopped being a "creature", very nearly everything with hitpoints is either a creature or an object (I'm hedging my bets here, I'm pretty sure it's literally everything but there might be one or two counter examples) and it will usually specify which.

I'll also copy the header of the "type" statistics section of the Monster Manual.

A monster’s type speaks to its fundamental nature. Certain spells, magic items, class features, and other effects in the game interact in special ways with creatures of a particular type. For example, an arrow of dragon slaying deals extra damage not only to dragons but also other creatures of the dragon type, such as dragon turtles and wyverns.

The game includes the following monster types, which have no rules of their own.
Your logic that only Modrons are somehow "construct creatures" breaks down, the creatures "type" is a game statistic (this is important, see Simulacrum above). Wyverns are not Dragons, but they are dragon type creatures. Simulacrum are not Modrons, but they are construct like creatures.

[The_Jette]

When the player directs the Simulacrum to cast wish to grant him gold, or a powerful item, have the simulacrum say 'no'. When pushed for further response, the simulacrum has a small time of life granted to him, and doesn't want the backlash of using a spell in a way that it knows isn't beneficial and could possibly burn out parts of its spellcasting. If the spellcaster wants it to aid them effectively, then they'll have to accept that the simulacrum is just as intelligent as they are, and has a mind of it own.

[sithlordnergal]

When the player directs the Simulacrum to cast wish to grant him gold, or a powerful item, have the simulacrum say 'no'. When pushed for further response, the simulacrum has a small time of life granted to him, and doesn't want the backlash of using a spell in a way that it knows isn't beneficial and could possibly burn out parts of its spellcasting. If the spellcaster wants it to aid them effectively, then they'll have to accept that the simulacrum is just as intelligent as they are, and has a mind of it own.

Ehh, you run into a small issue:

"The simulacrum is friendly to you and Creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and Acting in accordance with your wishes and Acting on Your Turn in Combat."

The spell forces the Simulacrum to obey your spoken commands, even if it puts the Simulacrum into immense danger. It can't really say "no"

[Psyren]

Yes, and if you'd like to send Crawford and Mearls (does he even work on this game anymore?) that suggestion, by all means do so.

Crawford yes, Mearls no (the latter was replaced by Ray Winninger, perhaps most famous for the blog post explaining their recent racial errata.)

[Sigreid]

Ruby Dust is a valuable magical reagent, there's plenty market for it as long as spellcasters exist. True on the second part though, flood the economy with enough ruby dust and eventually they'll have more than they need.

Somewhat dependent on where you set up housekeeping. Waterdeep? Sure, though I think you increase the risk of drawing the attention from the wrong kind of people. If you're setting up in a small village or the middle of nowhere? Actually selling could be a problem.

[Schwann145]

Where did you get the idea that they're worth millions of gold? Sure, perhaps if you include their residence and every little bit and bob in it you'd have maybe 1 or 2, but "millions of gold" is actually pretty unrealistic even for nobility to have.
Of course I'd include the wealth that is invested in something like their home. Why wouldn't that be part of the base assumption?
•A noble estate is listed at 25k to build. That's probably on the low end if we're being real. Many nobles have multiple estates in various favored locales.
•The daily upkeep for such an estate is 10g/day. The Realms has 365 days in a year, so *just* to keep the house running clean and smooth, that's a 3650g cost per year. This includes the cost of 3 trained, and 15 untrained hirelings; cooks, cleaners, handypeople, and people to keep it all in order.
•If you want guards, they need to be outfitted and paid - a cost missing from the books unfortunately but a cost never-the-less. Let's start with the assumption of 20 guards with 2 "officers" in charge of them. Let's also skip the outfitting costs and just call their salary 1g/day (modest lifestyle) for the 20 and 2g/day (comfortable) for the officers. Actually no, let's cut those prices a bit - you're proving room and board for them, after all. So let's say the guards are paid 5sp/day (halfway between squalid and modest; slightly better than poor), and the officers are paid 1g/day. That's an additional 2190g/year.
•Now let's say that this noble has a summer home and a winter home. Take all the costs so far and double them. (3650x2 + 2190x2 = 11,680g per year).
•The daily lifestyle cost for aristocrats is listed as "10g/day minimum." Even working the minimum, that's another 3650g cost per year just to "live the noble life."
So a "frugal" noble, keeping their living expenses down to a "meager" 10g/day with two seasonal estates and guards for each is paying out: 15,330g per year. And remember, that lifestyle cost is for one person. If there are multiple nobles living off the same finances, you can add another 3650g/year for each of them. A noble family of 5 (Patriarch, Matriarch, and 3 children) has a yearly "cost" of 29,930gp/year.
(And recall, the 10g/day lifestyle cost is the minimum - it could easily be more.)
If the gold values in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist are to be believed, then these "nobles" are gonna be poor pretty soon with yearly costs like this! Which makes me think whoever wrote that module wasn't thinking very hard about it.


Notably the Wish effect is a single object, we use this listed method rather than making a grocery list of things because it avoids the other drawback of Wish in that if you don't copy a spell or use the listed example the DM is given free reign to say "okay, you got everything on the list" while making their own list of people it was taken from.
The bullet point options are also at the whim/mercy of the DM. The only safe option for Wish is the spell copy effect.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Of course I'd include the wealth that is invested in something like their home. Why wouldn't that be part of the base assumption?
•A noble estate is listed at 25k to build. That's probably on the low end if we're being real. Many nobles have multiple estates in various favored locales.
•The daily upkeep for such an estate is 10g/day. The Realms has 365 days in a year, so *just* to keep the house running clean and smooth, that's a 3650g cost per year. This includes the cost of 3 trained, and 15 untrained hirelings; cooks, cleaners, handypeople, and people to keep it all in order.
•If you want guards, they need to be outfitted and paid - a cost missing from the books unfortunately but a cost never-the-less. Let's start with the assumption of 20 guards with 2 "officers" in charge of them. Let's also skip the outfitting costs and just call their salary 1g/day (modest lifestyle) for the 20 and 2g/day (comfortable) for the officers. Actually no, let's cut those prices a bit - you're proving room and board for them, after all. So let's say the guards are paid 5sp/day (halfway between squalid and modest; slightly better than poor), and the officers are paid 1g/day. That's an additional 2190g/year.
•Now let's say that this noble has a summer home and a winter home. Take all the costs so far and double them. (3650x2 + 2190x2 = 11,680g per year).
•The daily lifestyle cost for aristocrats is listed as "10g/day minimum." Even working the minimum, that's another 3650g cost per year just to "live the noble life."
So a "frugal" noble, keeping their living expenses down to a "meager" 10g/day with two seasonal estates and guards for each is paying out: 15,330g per year. And remember, that lifestyle cost is for one person. If there are multiple nobles living off the same finances, you can add another 3650g/year for each of them. A noble family of 5 (Patriarch, Matriarch, and 3 children) has a yearly "cost" of 29,930gp/year.
(And recall, the 10g/day lifestyle cost is the minimum - it could easily be more.)
If the gold values in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist are to be believed, then these "nobles" are gonna be poor pretty soon with yearly costs like this! Which makes me think whoever wrote that module wasn't thinking very hard about it.


The bullet point options are also at the whim/mercy of the DM. The only safe option for Wish is the spell copy effect.

Stocks and flows. Those estates are also bringing in money. Their net profits are probably in the 10k gp/year range or less, with bad years putting them into the negative (drawing on reserves). Note that 10 years of embezzlement from the taxes of Waterdeep only netted 500k. So that's 50k/year for basically looting the treasury. Their cash on hand (or otherwise liquid assets) are much more limited. So dumping a million GP into the economy absolutely will have massive effects.

This confusion is present even in the modern day. I won't go into details due to forum rules, but there are lots of people who are asset-rich and simultaneously living close to financial ruin.

[Schwann145]

Wanna add as I just recalled: Mirt is often portrayed as being worth millions, if not tens of millions. This definitely conflicts with the WDH values.

[Kornaki]

I like the idea of powerful beings out there stopping this, and also wondering why no one else has done this, but I don't think anyone went far enough. You should just go full Loki on this one. Wizards used to do this all the time. Eventually one of them won, and set up an agency to track down and kill any other wizard that begins to attempt it.

You can even throw in the timelines. When the simulacrum first casts wish, the timekeepers show up and blow up the whole group. Then you cut back to the timeline where they didn't order the simulacrum to cast wish, and ask what they want to do instead.

If they ever have a neat idea where they then use wish from a simulacrum to intentionally trigger the timekeepers, let them have the win, but just once.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Wanna add as I just recalled: Mirt is often portrayed as being worth millions, if not tens of millions. This definitely conflicts with the WDH values.
Where is this portrayal? The Mirt you encounter in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist is a [redacted] who is a semi retired adventurer and lives in a dilapidated mansion, though it's in the nicest part of town.

Though... Now that you mention it, I did come across this bit in my research:

In 1368 DR, Joshuan Havabuck, a halfling crime lord, and businessman of many enterprises of the Dock Ward in Waterdeep received a sizable loan from Mirt. The ten million gold lion loan was to pay out the lottery winnings the halting ran in the Docks. Amazingly, every single person to bough into the game picked the winning numbers. This freakish luck was caused by Tymora's divine powers running amok across the Realms. Joshuan was ready to take on the monstrous loan and its interest in order to keep his reputation intact. The collection of coin took more than four hours of carting sacks of gold from Mirt's vaults and the rest of the day was spent in calculation of all the enchanted items, gems, and art Mirt needed to sell temporarily to refill the cash reserves. The same night, Mirt was visited by one of the Masked Lords of Waterdeep informing him of several similar gargantuan loans taken by other gambling organizers of Waterdeep. The Lords were troubled by the sudden influx of coin in the city of Waterdeep and the threat of inflation caused by it.[33]

So perhaps Mirt does have tens of millions of gold, if you include all of his liquid assets, but we can also see that it's an economically devastating amount of gold. Honestly I'm glad you brought this up though, Mirt potentially being the actual wealthiest individual in the realms and willing to spend that cash is useful information for our home campaign that would have otherwise gone unknown to me only combing through what you're told in Dragon Heist. He really hides his wealth well.

[Schwann145]

Volo's Guide to Waterdeep mentions a non-noble merchant, Jathillira Thindrel, who runs a festhall and states that "she has access to around 1,000,000 in ready cash & real estate holdings totaling around another 4 million."

[Telok]

Here's the wild magic system: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g9G0MwlSF3E6HFDJizb6lUH2gjC4PFSiV63dMjciMW4/edit?usp=sharing

I haven't touched the doc in a while, so some things may be in need of updating

You're missing a #17 entry on the minor effects table.

I've set it up so you should be able to easily change table entries when its done. Will include instructions in the file. May not be done by Friday, alas, not getting as many breaks at work or as much comp time st home as usual because slow typing due to broken wrist right now.

[Greywander]

You're missing a #17 entry on the minor effects table.
Actually the major surge table, but thanks for pointing this out. As a quick fix, I just extended the effect for rolling an 18 to also occur on a 17. Reviewing the corresponding minor effects, this might have been the intention from the beginning (both a 17 and an 18 on the minor surge table relate to gaining temporary resistance).


I've set it up so you should be able to easily change table entries when its done. Will include instructions in the file. May not be done by Friday, alas, not getting as many breaks at work or as much comp time st home as usual because slow typing due to broken wrist right now.
Thanks, it will be interesting to see what kind of results we get. This seems like a weirdly specific project, but I can tell you've probably been taken by a sudden obsession to do this one specific thing. I've certainly had moods like that take over me. Don't strain yourself too hard, though, and give your wrist a chance to heal.

[Telok]

Thanks, it will be interesting to see what kind of results we get. This seems like a weirdly specific project, but I can tell you've probably been taken by a sudden obsession to do this one specific thing. I've certainly had moods like that take over me. Don't strain yourself too hard, though, and give your wrist a chance to heal.

Thanks, I'm rocking a pink & purple removable brace with blue felt trim now. Its all good.

I built like a dozen of these for my Dungeons the Dragoning rewrite. They helped nail down how easy/hard I wanted to make stuff. That game has a WHFRP derived casting system too, I have two sims and a dice options calc for that which let me tweak to my desired danger/risk/success ratios. They really aren't complicated, what takes so long is that I do them on lunch breaks and the like.

[zlefin]

If I'm trying to technically stick to RAW, but really want to just say NO; I just add my 'guardians' to the mix. The guardians are a set of overdeities that keep the universe functioning, and prevent various forms of breakage. For instance the guardian of time prevents temporal paradoxes from causing problems. Functionally they're just DM avatars that provide an easy way to say no and call it RAW.

[The_Jette]

Ehh, you run into a small issue:

"The simulacrum is friendly to you and Creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and Acting in accordance with your wishes and Acting on Your Turn in Combat."

The spell forces the Simulacrum to obey your spoken commands, even if it puts the Simulacrum into immense danger. It can't really say "no"

You could rule it that way. Or, you could rule it that the Simulacrum goes along with whatever commands a friendly creature would go along with, which doesn't necessarily include intentionally putting itself in danger in a way that only benefits you and has no benefit to it. If the player is going to try to game the system then they leave themselves open to that kind of thing.

[JNAProductions]

You could rule it that way. Or, you could rule it that the Simulacrum goes along with whatever commands a friendly creature would go along with, which doesn't necessarily include intentionally putting itself in danger in a way that only benefits you and has no benefit to it. If the player is going to try to game the system then they leave themselves open to that kind of thing.

It's not a good idea to twist the rules to screw players over. If the players are being abusive with the rules, ask them to stop, or change the rules. Don't use maliciously bad readings.

[The_Jette]

It's not a good idea to twist the rules to screw players over. If the players are being abusive with the rules, ask them to stop, or change the rules. Don't use maliciously bad readings.

I don't really see this as being malicious. It's offering up a valid reason why the spell won't work in the way the player desires, while not injuring them in any way, and not even really screwing them over. The spell can still be used as it was intended. They just can't abuse it for their own greed.

[JNAProductions]

I don't really see this as being malicious. It's offering up a valid reason why the spell won't work in the way the player desires, while not injuring them in any way, and not even really screwing them over. The spell can still be used as it was intended. They just can't abuse it for their own greed.

[The Simulacrum] obeys your spoken commands, moving and Acting in accordance with your wishes and Acting on Your Turn in Combat.

It obeys your spoken commands. You could argue that it's only friendly towards and favorable towards those you designate (barring an explicit order like "Obey them as you would obey me" or something) but for you? It obeys your spoken commands.

If you were saying "I'd houserule Simulacrum to only be friendly," we could argue that rule on its merit. But that's what it is-a houserule. It's against the explicit text of the spell.

[The_Jette]

It obeys your spoken commands. You could argue that it's only friendly towards and favorable towards those you designate (barring an explicit order like "Obey them as you would obey me" or something) but for you? It obeys your spoken commands.

If you were saying "I'd houserule Simulacrum to only be friendly," we could argue that rule on its merit. But that's what it is-a houserule. It's against the explicit text of the spell.

Fine. You'd houserule that you could add "obeys commands that a friendly creature would obey instead of all read: suicidal or self-haming orders. Is that better for you? Personally, I see it as an alternative interpretation. But, you do you.

[JNAProductions]

Fine. You'd houserule that you could add "obeys commands that a friendly creature would obey instead of all read: suicidal or self-haming orders. Is that better for you? Personally, I see it as an alternative interpretation. But, you do you.

Great.

Now, what's suicidal or self-harming about casting a safe Wish?

Because that's all that's being asked. If you can't do that, you can't have them cast ANYTHING, since that'd take spell slots. Or fight with you. Or a litany of other things.

[The_Jette]

Great.

Now, what's suicidal or self-harming about casting a safe Wish?

Because that's all that's being asked. If you can't do that, you can't have them cast ANYTHING, since that'd take spell slots. Or fight with you. Or a litany of other things.

Self-harming: casting a spell with no personal benefit that could burn that spell out and stop you from casting it ever again. And, again, this isn't an all reaching rule. It's a specific ruling for a specific situation. A player wants infinite wealth by constantly summoning intelligent copies of himself and using them for their spellslots. A way out is to have the intelligent copies say "I may only be in this world for a short while, but I want to enjoy it while I'm here." If you don't like the idea, ignore it. It isn't for you, anyways. It's for the OP.

[JNAProductions]

Self-harming: casting a spell with no personal benefit that could burn that spell out and stop you from casting it ever again. And, again, this isn't an all reaching rule. It's a specific ruling for a specific situation. A player wants infinite wealth by constantly summoning intelligent copies of himself and using them for their spellslots. A way out is to have the intelligent copies say "I may only be in this world for a short while, but I want to enjoy it while I'm here." If you don't like the idea, ignore it. It isn't for you, anyways. It's for the OP.

But what WOULD the Sim do then?

Casting Wish has no permanent consequences for them save the loss of a 9th level slot. If "Using a spell slot" is too much for a friendly duplicate to do, what ISN'T?

[OvisCaedo]

The simulacrum can't cast Wish ever again no matter what they use it for, they're incapable of getting the 9th level slot back. Or any other 9th level spell. Or 8th!

[JNAProductions]

The simulacrum can't cast Wish ever again no matter what they use it for, they're incapable of getting the 9th level slot back. Or any other 9th level spell. Or 8th!

Is that to rebut or reinforce my point?

Because yeah, they can't get slots back. So if "Casting Wish" is considered permanent harm since they can never regain that slot, so would "Casting Knock" on that locked door.

[The_Jette]

Is that to rebut or reinforce my point?

Because yeah, they can't get slots back. So if "Casting Wish" is considered permanent harm since they can never regain that slot, so would "Casting Knock" on that locked door.

Again, if you don't like it, don't use it. Come up with some other way of getting around the infinite wealth question. It isn't a catch all ruling.

[JNAProductions]

Again, if you don't like it, don't use it. Come up with some other way of getting around the infinite wealth question. It isn't a catch all ruling.

It's not a good ruling. Again-if using a spell slot is considered irreparable harm since they cannot regain it, what WOULD they do for you?

[Tawmis]

Easy answer - Simulacrum -



You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or Humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take Actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any Equipment. Otherwise, the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates.

The simulacrum is friendly to you and Creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and Acting in accordance with your wishes and Acting on Your Turn in Combat. The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other Abilities, nor can it regain expended Spell Slots.


Once it casts WISH and creates another - the NEW Simulacrum is a copy of the original Simulacrum. And it is friendly to it, not the caster. So it may develop a personality of it's own, because it's not a Simulacrum of an actual person. So it begins behaving erratically. The more that are made, the more erratic they get.

Like back in the day, when you used to (I am about to date myself) use cassettes to make copies of cassettes. Then when you use the copied cassette to make another copy, the sound quality continues to get worse and worse.

That could spark a fun adventure as the party finds themselves potentially facing Simulacrums that are rebelling for "new found independence."

[The_Jette]

It's not a good ruling. Again-if using a spell slot is considered irreparable harm since they cannot regain it, what WOULD they do for you?

I didn't say "using a spell slot irreparable harm" at any point. I said, casting a spell that has the caveat that if you cast it outside its intended way will strip you of ever being able to cast that spell again, can be viewed as self ham. Don't think it's a good ruling? Fine. Don't use it. But, that is 100% literally the only thing that is covered by this ruling.
If you wanted you could probably take it a step further and say that the simulacrum would ignore an order such as "go take a stroll through that lava over there." But, that's about as far as I see it going.

[JNAProductions]

I didn't say "using a spell slot irreparable harm" at any point. I said, casting a spell that has the caveat that if you cast it outside its intended way will strip you of ever being able to cast that spell again, can be viewed as self ham. Don't think it's a good ruling? Fine. Don't use it. But, that is 100% literally the only thing that is covered by this ruling.
If you wanted you could probably take it a step further and say that the simulacrum would ignore an order such as "go take a stroll through that lava over there." But, that's about as far as I see it going.

But casting ANY 9th level spell will cost the Sim their ability to cast Wish ever again.

[The_Jette]

But casting ANY 9th level spell will cost the Sim their ability to cast Wish ever again.

You're assuming that not getting a spell slot back and having a spell known stripped from your mind is the same thing. I am not. There's the difference.

[JNAProductions]

You're assuming that not getting a spell slot back and having a spell known stripped from your mind is the same thing. I am not. There's the difference.

Then please, explain the difference.

Also, explain what you mean by "Having a spell known stripped from your mind", as that's not in the text of the Wish spell.|

Also also, explain why they'd even be making that roll, since you can easily have a safe Wish still make moolah.

[The_Jette]

Then please, explain the difference.

Also, explain what you mean by "Having a spell known stripped from your mind", as that's not in the text of the Wish spell.|

Also also, explain why they'd even be making that roll, since you can easily have a safe Wish still make moolah.

How about I explain this: you don't have to use the option presented. And, I don't have to argue about the possible ramifications that wouldn't matter if the DM interpreting the ruling doesn't press them. If you don't see the difference (as I already pointed out), then there's no way I could explain it to you so that you do, as apparently you only see mechanics of the game. I'm not here to argue the rules with someone it doesn't even effect, since this isn't your issue. If the OP wants to use my answer, he will. If not, I lost nothing from offering up an option to him. But, I'm done with this bicker fest that you've started.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Easy answer - Simulacrum -

You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or Humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take Actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any Equipment. Otherwise, the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct.

The simulacrum is friendly to you and Creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and Acting in accordance with your wishes and Acting on Your Turn in Combat. The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other Abilities, nor can it regain expended Spell Slots.
Once it casts WISH and creates another - the NEW Simulacrum is a copy of the original Simulacrum. And it is friendly to it, not the caster. So it may develop a personality of it's own, because it's not a Simulacrum of an actual person. So it begins behaving erratically. The more that are made, the more erratic they get.

Like back in the day, when you used to (I am about to date myself) use cassettes to make copies of cassettes. Then when you use the copied cassette to make another copy, the sound quality continues to get worse and worse.

That could spark a fun adventure as the party finds themselves potentially facing Simulacrums that are rebelling for "new found independence."

It can't target itself after the errata (I've added it into your quote) it must target the original caster. It doesn't really get to order the simulacrum around either, you still get to tell it what to do which can include "don't tell your simulacrum to do anything until I tell you to." so it's a bit of a wash.

You're assuming that not getting a spell slot back and having a spell known stripped from your mind is the same thing. I am not. There's the difference.
If we're giving them the autonomy to realize casting an unsafe Wish might lead to them not knowing Wish, they should also understand they are a construct that doesn't regain resources, since they also know Simulacrum. They would know that any casting of Wish (or 9th level spell at all) will be their last, does that make sense?

[Trask]

The wish conjures an item of great value...stolen from it's very angry previous owner.

[FrancisBean]

This probably won't help OP, because this is campaign-specific. But it does solve the problem for me, if it ever comes up with my group. In my current campaign world, ancient high magics nearly brought about the end of the world about 3000 years ago. The gods stepped in and limited spells to 9th level, and established a secret guild of spellcasters. It's their job to keep the powerful magics (6th-level spells and up) mostly under wraps, and to prevent magic from impacting the course of history. Among other things, member magi are forbidden to rule any fief, however small; magi are only allowed to work behind the scenes.

The campaign starts very low magic, with the idea that spells mostly cap at 2nd level. Spell levels 3-5 are the stuff of legend, but there are a few known casters who can handle them. Anything above that is considered purely mythical. Once PCs reach levels 9-11, the primary casters get involuntarily inducted -- it's a cluster of top-level guild wizards who teleport in, stuff the character's head in a bag, and teleport out to indoctrinate them. It's a hard sell "join or die" sort of thing.

In practical terms, this means that any wizard who gets to Simulacrum+Wish knows she's under scrutiny, and knows that if she disrupts the world that way, it'll be a scry-and-die hit squad of 17th+ wizards backed by an artifact the gods bestowed when they established the guild.

It isn't that the spells can't do those sorts of things. It's that the gods already stepped in once, and the guild believes that if it comes up again they just might reboot the world out of irritation. In-game consequences in lieu of patching the rules.

[Angelalex242]

On the other hand...

Drop Infinite for a moment.

The PCs have 10 million gold.

And now they do...what? Found a new Kingdom somewhere? A DM can work with that. Just cause you can pay for the good, services, and high quality materials in building your new kingdom doesn't mean you get out of defending it.

You have money to hire an army...

Armies don't work well against high level beings, like the PCs themselves.

And there's the Lord of the Rings Smaug problem (undoubtedly all that wealth brought the dragon!). All the Chromatic Dragons are salivating. Sure, you can get Metallics on your side, but then they want a piece of the pie to defend the rest.

If they create a merchant empire...

That's a whole other campaign. What are they selling? What are they buying? Which guild are they now competing with...and pushing out of business because, between high level magic and all that money, the competitor will probably go out of business.