Clerics would be cooler on warlock mechanics

[Throne12]

So this just my shower thoughts but I think clerics would be better using warlock machines. When I think about clerics and other holy man type people. I don't see spellcaster like a wizard. I see some who are handing out blessings and are being granted boons and power from there god/spirit. So this is how I see it.
Warlocks invocations are boons & abilities granted to the person by there god/spirt. Then warlocks spellcasting is blessings/ answers to prayer. The warlocks mystic Arcanum are Aspects of there god manafastioning. Then the warlocks pact boon aka blade,book,chain, Talisment. Are what kind of worshiper followers you are to you take up the blade to defend or bring the faith to others. Maybe you carry around the holy Scriptures preaching. Maybe your God Grants you a companion to help you on your journey. Or maybe you carry around a holy relic to be more connected to your god/spirt.


So this is want I was thinking about what are yalls thoughts

[KorvinStarmast]

There is a DM in a game I play who uses the Warlock chassis for most of his in-world clerics.
My Celestial warlock is the party healer (No group cleric) in another campaign.

[Throne12]

There is a DM in a game I play who uses the Warlock chassis for most of his in-world clerics.
My Celestial warlock is the party healer (No group cleric) in another campaign.

How does it play?

[Psyren]

I think you could replace all clerics in a campaign world with warlocks and not have too many worldbuilding issues. I personally wouldn't, but it's not impossible.

[PhoenixPhyre]

How does it play?

If you're talking about the in-world one, it works great. Note--they're explicitly priests, not clerics. And they're only loosely warlock-chassis (because I don't use PC classes directly for NPCs). Effectively, priests are taught "mysteries" (ie spells and powers) by their church, with the church (or maybe a planar entity) standing in as "patron". But most only know a couple selected powers, tightly tied to their beliefs. Mostly from the cleric list, but not always.

You could make a "cleric" based on that fairly easily. I just haven't bothered yet. Because PCs are inherently special (if they weren't, we'd follow someone who was). And there are clerics in the setting--they're just not tied to churches and are direct representatives of and directly called by the gods.

[JackPhoenix]

Agreed. I've said the same thing years ago.

Edit: To elaborate a bit: Warlock casting mechanic makes more sense for cleric to me. You always channel the god's power at the highest level you can handle (i.e. your spells automatically use highest level slot), but you can only draw on it so often without taking a break (i.e. short rest recovery). The modularity offered by patron/boon/invocations/spells is also great, as it would allow to better fit the cleric to a specific deity.
You could propably roll druid in there (with wildshape as boon, and invocations further modifiying it) too.

Too bad I'm too lazy to actually work it out as a proper homebrew.

[MoiMagnus]

On one hand, I totally agree. Cleric as "a paladin, but slightly different" just doesn't match what I want, and I don't really want my Archbishops NPCs to be by default in heavy armours.

On the other hand, that's a big reform of one of the 4 iconic classes of D&D. It would be pretty much the equivalent of making the Bladesinger the default kind of wizard. I don't think that's fair for me to expect D&D to make some changes that drastic.

[Rashagar]

In some ways I can't help thinking the warlock is one of the best designed classes, just from the modular aspect of it.

On the other hand, I've never actually played one, so I'm not sure if that assessment really holds weight when it's coming from someone who invariably picks different classes to play instead haha!

But I would like if it were easier to make clerics feel more distinct from each other, and I think the modular aspect of the warlock chassis would be an interesting way to do that.

[Kane0]

As I have said before, separating casting mechanics based on the source is cool and desirable for me.
Innate magic: spell points
Learned magic: spell slots of each spell level
Granted magic: spells at max spell level

[JellyPooga]

Aaaand just like that, the Cleric Class was eliminated from every 5e game I'll ever run from here on in.

The Cleric has never sat well with me conceptually; far too often being portrayed with a very narrow focus. The narrative concept nominally covers everything from a robe-wearing spellslinging itinerant preacher to a fully-armoured holy warrior, but the mechanics focus almost solely on the latter. With a more Warlock-like chassis, the breadth of concept increases greatly.

Breaking "Domain" down into Patron, Boon and even Mystic Arcana options (even dictating the latter) feels a lot more versatile; want to be the scholarly follower of a bloodthirsty nature god? Move over Nature Domain...no wait, Knowledge Domain...no wait, War Domain...yeah, step in Nature Patron with Tome Boon and appropriate Invocations.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Aaaand just like that, the Cleric Class was eliminated from every 5e game I'll ever run from here on in.

The Cleric has never sat well with me conceptually; far too often being portrayed with a very narrow focus. The narrative concept nominally covers everything from a robe-wearing spellslinging itinerant preacher to a fully-armoured holy warrior, but the mechanics focus almost solely on the latter. With a more Warlock-like chassis, the breadth of concept increases greatly.

Breaking "Domain" down into Patron, Boon and even Mystic Arcana options (even dictating the latter) feels a lot more versatile; want to be the scholarly follower of a bloodthirsty nature god? Move over Nature Domain...no wait, Knowledge Domain...no wait, War Domain...yeah, step in Nature Patron with Tome Boon and appropriate Invocations.

I might (if I ever get the creative spark again) create a separate "priest" class for the robe-wearing type. Effectively a "white mage" analogue, but not tied strictly to "white magic". And I'd probably use the warlock chassis, although probably MAD CHA/WIS. WIS casting stat, but features that benefit from CHA in at least some sub-classes.

[stoutstien]

I might (if I ever get the creative spark again) create a separate "priest" class for the robe-wearing type. Effectively a "white mage" analogue, but not tied strictly to "white magic". And I'd probably use the warlock chassis, although probably MAD CHA/WIS. WIS casting stat, but features that benefit from CHA in at least some sub-classes.

I do wish we'd see more mixed stat focuses. They hinted at it a little but haven't taking the plunge into something like a Wis/Cha or int/Cha mix.

[Yora]

I'm working on a campaign where all mages are warlocks, and all priests are bards. Except for various demon and aberration cults, where the master warlock acts as a priest for the other cultists.
That seems so much more interesting and fun than the regular knight with healing spells of D&D.

[Sorinth]

I had made a Pact Magic Druid class before so I have no doubt it would work well for Clerics as well.

To be honest I think Warlock chassis should be the default Full Caster mode. It's better balanced with Martials, simpler to play but still having a lot of flexibility/depth in how you build.

[KorvinStarmast]

How does it play? For my celestial lock, very well although a lack of channel divinity is a feature that I miss from the straight up cleric. *shrugs*

In the game world where the DM has NPC cleric types being on a warlock chassis, it works fine but that may be due to how well the DM runs the NPCs world. It's coherent. (Oh, wait, I see that Phoenix has answered. Well, mine is the player facing answer).

In some ways I can't help thinking the warlock is one of the best designed classes, just from the modular aspect of it. It is, IMO.

On the other hand, I've never actually played one, I have played a few. My only suggested tweak is that all of the patron additions to the spell list ought to be added as "Domain Spells" and the invocation progression needs to be slightly more robust.

I'd like to be able to swap out / in Mystic Arcanums on level up, but am on the fence.

[Pildion]

So this just my shower thoughts but I think clerics would be better using warlock machines. When I think about clerics and other holy man type people. I don't see spellcaster like a wizard. I see some who are handing out blessings and are being granted boons and power from there god/spirit. So this is how I see it.
Warlocks invocations are boons & abilities granted to the person by there god/spirt. Then warlocks spellcasting is blessings/ answers to prayer. The warlocks mystic Arcanum are Aspects of there god manafastioning. Then the warlocks pact boon aka blade,book,chain, Talisment. Are what kind of worshiper followers you are to you take up the blade to defend or bring the faith to others. Maybe you carry around the holy Scriptures preaching. Maybe your God Grants you a companion to help you on your journey. Or maybe you carry around a holy relic to be more connected to your god/spirt.


So this is want I was thinking about what are yalls thoughts

The Warlock chassis is terrible compared to the normal spell casting chassis. It would be a significant nerf. If anything I would allow a Warlock to lose their unlimited spell invocations while keeping non spell ones to buff eldritch blast or blade pact, lose mystic arcana and just be a normal caster.

[stoutstien]

The Warlock chassis is terrible compared to the normal spell casting chassis. It would be a significant nerf. If anything I would allow a Warlock to lose their unlimited spell invocations while keeping non spell ones to buff eldritch blast or blade pact, lose mystic arcana and just be a normal caster.

The fact is such thing as a normal spell casting chassis is the problem. Moving more content into it is burning away more content.

[Sorinth]

So what would people's cleric invocation look like?

For the at will spell casting type invocations, I don't see many good options. The most interesting one might be Warding Bond.

[clash]

So what would people's cleric invocation look like?

For the at will spell casting type invocations, I don't see many good options. The most interesting one might be Warding Bond.

I could easily see iconic ongoing spells as invocations. Things like bless, shield of faith, or even spiritual weapon at higher levels.

[ender241]

I do wish we'd see more mixed stat focuses. They hinted at it a little but haven't taking the plunge into something like a Wis/Cha or int/Cha mix.

The problem with that is it would make a character even more MAD than a typical MAD build. Because usually if you're MAD at least one of the scores is something that directly helps with survivability. Monk is Dex/Wis but both help with AC, Paladin is Str/Cha but Str let's them wear heavy armor without penalty, etc. If a character needs 2 mental scores, they really care about 4 scores (2 mental, Dex/Str for AC or heavy armor, and Con which everyone cares about). I'm not saying it can't be done. Just to really make it feasible there would have to be some mechanic that uses one of the mental stats to help with survivability (like Bladesinger adding Int to AC) or heavy armor prof without the Str requirement (like armorer).

[stoutstien]

The problem with that is it would make a character even more MAD than a typical MAD build. Because usually if you're MAD at least one of the scores is something that directly helps with survivability. Monk is Dex/Wis but both help with AC, Paladin is Str/Cha but Str let's them wear heavy armor without penalty, etc. If a character needs 2 mental scores, they really care about 4 scores (2 mental, Dex/Str for AC or heavy armor, and Con which everyone cares about). I'm not saying it can't be done. Just to really make it feasible there would have to be some mechanic that uses one of the mental stats to help with survivability (like Bladesinger adding Int to AC) or heavy armor prof without the Str requirement (like armorer).

Wouldn't be hard. Even the DMG has suggestions on how to shift clerics to less martial feeling with an alternative unarmored formula. The monk I admit has issues here but most of that is in the details not the concept. I would go further and promote diverse ability choices on a class Could have a sage with Cha+ Wis +X for AC and adds intelligence to HP and con saves.

[AdAstra]

Now that Divine Soul and Celestial Patron are a thing, along with Druids to a lesser extent, I think that kinda covers the general realm of robed holy folks (use Sorcerer spells to represent your domain better, they have a fair bit of flexibility there). And for that matter the non-heavy armor Clerics already do quite well at emulating them, with the "stealthy" medium armors being pretty low-key as armor goes.

As for Clerics on the Warlock chassis, ehh. I actually really like spell slots as a mechanism overall (lots of flexibility while still having limits on just spamming high or low level spells) even when I disagree with any particular implementation. Replacing them with something else entirely is going to be at best a lateral move for me.

[Sergeantbrother]

I've recently started a 5th edition D&D game and my wife is playing a religiously themed healer with the celestial warlock class. The religion is very fire themed - holy cleansing flame, that kind of thing - and Eldritch Blast works for that and Cure Wounds combined with Healing Light make her a reasonably effective healer as well.

Mechanically she's still like a warlock in many ways, though she can heal and that is one of her main focuses. Thematically it works completely, better in fact for her particular character concept who she saw as more of a robed scholarly priestess than a heavily armored mace swinger.

So far she is only 2nd level, so as the game progresses there might be a few other things I notice, but so far it seems like a great idea.

[paladinn]

Personally I think clerics would work best on the alternative spell-point system. Divine spells are more answers to prayer than actual spells. I like the idea of just "praying" and having the cost come out of your point total, instead of having spells prepared and applying to spell slots.

Sorcerers could likely work much the same way, but limited to their spells known. IMO a cleric's entire spell list should be open to him/her, especially one's domain spells. The spell slot concept works best for a studious wizard.

[Amechra]

Hmm...

Converting Cleric Domains into Warlock Patrons


If the Domain mentions Wisdom anywhere, replace it with Charisma. Or make the Warlock a Wisdom caster and let them base their Invocations off of Wisdom — either works.
You get the 1st level Domain feature at 1st level.
At 2nd level, you replace one of your Invocations with the ability to Channel Divinity as a Cleric of your level. You can only spend your CD uses on your Domain's 2nd level Channel Divinity, though.
At 6th level, you gain your Domain's other Channel Divinity.
At 10th level, you gain Blessed Strikes — it works better with the overall Warlock chassis than the other options.
At 14th level, you gain the 17th level Domain feature. Yes, this is a bit of a jump, but none of them are terribly out of line for what a Patron gives you at 14th level.

[Pildion]

Personally I think clerics would work best on the alternative spell-point system. Divine spells are more answers to prayer than actual spells. I like the idea of just "praying" and having the cost come out of your point total, instead of having spells prepared and applying to spell slots.

Sorcerers could likely work much the same way, but limited to their spells known. IMO a cleric's entire spell list should be open to him/her, especially one's domain spells. The spell slot concept works best for a studious wizard.

This could be a cool idea, some kind of "divine power" points and each spell level cost more. lvl 1 spells are 1 point, lvl 2 spells are 2 points, and you get more points as you level? Paladinn is right in that Clerics and Paladin "spells" are really suppose to be more prayers then spells.

[Dienekes]

Agreed. I've said the same thing years ago.

Edit: To elaborate a bit: Warlock casting mechanic makes more sense for cleric to me. You always channel the god's power at the highest level you can handle (i.e. your spells automatically use highest level slot), but you can only draw on it so often without taking a break (i.e. short rest recovery). The modularity offered by patron/boon/invocations/spells is also great, as it would allow to better fit the cleric to a specific deity.
You could propably roll druid in there (with wildshape as boon, and invocations further modifiying it) too.

Too bad I'm too lazy to actually work it out as a proper homebrew.

Interestingly, I've thought the same thing, but about Sorcerer. For most of the system (but admittedly not all) Short Rest mechanics are based on internal exertion. You can only do so much before you need a quick breather. Enter Sorcerers who cast spells not based off of book learning but because they are just inherently tied to it. So they blast as strong as they can, and then need a break.

But then, I've never really thought much about Cleric casting at all really. In theory asking for some boon from your deity probably should look very different from any of the D&d casting systems. But I'm uncertain it would make for good gameplay.

[paladinn]

This could be a cool idea, some kind of "divine power" points and each spell level cost more. lvl 1 spells are 1 point, lvl 2 spells are 2 points, and you get more points as you level? Paladinn is right in that Clerics and Paladin "spells" are really suppose to be more prayers then spells.

Precisely. And cleric "spells" can be upcast as well. More power but they would take more points. Need to upcast Cure Wounds or Flame Strike or even Bless? Go for it. Just don't run out of points.

"Spell points" in this case is a measure of divine favor and not innate power.

I would also rework the spell point system from the DMG so that one spell level = 1 point. Casting a spell at lvl 1 costs 1 point. Casting the same spell at lvl 5 costs 5 points. For sorcerers, they can add their sorcery points to the pool and use it for both spells and metamagic. "Spell points" are then a measure of raw magical power. And it balances out the advantages that wizards have.

[thorr-kan]

The Spellcasting feature is used for everybody except Warlocks. I think there's room in the game meta for other classes to use the Pact Magic feature, instead.


Hmm...

Converting Cleric Domains into Warlock Patrons


If the Domain mentions Wisdom anywhere, replace it with Charisma. Or make the Warlock a Wisdom caster and let them base their Invocations off of Wisdom — either works.
You get the 1st level Domain feature at 1st level.
At 2nd level, you replace one of your Invocations with the ability to Channel Divinity as a Cleric of your level. You can only spend your CD uses on your Domain's 2nd level Channel Divinity, though.
At 6th level, you gain your Domain's other Channel Divinity.
At 10th level, you gain Blessed Strikes — it works better with the overall Warlock chassis than the other options.
At 14th level, you gain the 17th level Domain feature. Yes, this is a bit of a jump, but none of them are terribly out of line for what a Patron gives you at 14th level.


That's an excellent quick and dirty conversion that hits all the high points. Well done.

[PhantomSoul]

I would also rework the spell point system from the DMG so that one spell level = 1 point. Casting a spell at lvl 1 costs 1 point. Casting the same spell at lvl 5 costs 5 points. For sorcerers, they can add their sorcery points to the pool and use it for both spells and metamagic. "Spell points" are then a measure of raw magical power. And it balances out the advantages that wizards have.

I'm all for Spell Points for Sorcerers, I'm just intrigued by the rejig description here -- it sounds like it's to make them more of a measure of raw magical power, but I'm not following that as changing from the change in point calculation. Is it just for simplicity and the fluff isn't part of the change?

(I do like using points=spell_level and max_points=class_level, but use that in a draft for mystics and not for the sorcerer option. Maybe I'm just too satisfied with how spell point costs are equal to spell tier level + spell level. [Though I still do a consistent +1 for upcasting, rather than matching upcast slot level's cost.])

[Amechra]

I would also rework the spell point system from the DMG so that one spell level = 1 point. Casting a spell at lvl 1 costs 1 point. Casting the same spell at lvl 5 costs 5 points. For sorcerers, they can add their sorcery points to the pool and use it for both spells and metamagic. "Spell points" are then a measure of raw magical power. And it balances out the advantages that wizards have.

I'd be careful about this, honestly. The current system is set up with the idea that spell levels do not scale linearly. The gap between 2nd and 3rd level spells is much bigger than the gap between 1st and 2nd level spells or 3rd and 4th level spells.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'd be careful about this, honestly. The current system is set up with the idea that spell levels do not scale linearly. The gap between 2nd and 3rd level spells is much bigger than the gap between 1st and 2nd level spells or 3rd and 4th level spells.

Right. Effectively there are 4 "tiers" of spells, with large gaps between powers across tiers and not tons of growth within a tier (more broadening):

1: cantrips, levels 1-2
2: levels 3-5
3: levels 6-8
4: level 9

Which, if you note, also fit the tiers at which you get those spells as a full caster. How bout that...

[Dienekes]

Right. Effectively there are 4 "tiers" of spells, with large gaps between powers across tiers and not tons of growth within a tier (more broadening):

1: cantrips, levels 1-2
2: levels 3-5
3: levels 6-8
4: level 9

Which, if you note, also fit the tiers at which you get those spells as a full caster. How bout that...

Part of why I kinda think the game should have only had 4 spell levels, but, eh. Too late to balance around that now. And not worth the time to homebrew.

[Amechra]

Right. Effectively there are 4 "tiers" of spells, with large gaps between powers across tiers and not tons of growth within a tier (more broadening):

1: cantrips, levels 1-2
2: levels 3-5
3: levels 6-8
4: level 9

Which, if you note, also fit the tiers at which you get those spells as a full caster. How bout that...

I've always thought that half-casters need to get a little power boost to their spellcasting when they get their 2nd, 4th, and 5th level slots. They get them a tier (or two) after the full-casters get them, so their unique spells at those levels should be a little better to compensate. In other words, a half-caster's unique 2nd level spells should be a little overpowered for their level, while their unique 4th and 5th level spells should straight-up be balanced as if they were the next level up. They actually do do a bit of that with the unique Paladin spells, given how good they are.

But sadly the Bard ruins everything for everyone forever.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've always thought that half-casters need to get a little power boost to their spellcasting when they get their 2nd, 4th, and 5th level slots. They get them a tier (or two) after the full-casters get them, so their unique spells at those levels should be a little better to compensate. In other words, a half-caster's unique 2nd level spells should be a little overpowered for their level, while their unique 4th and 5th level spells should straight-up be balanced as if they were the next level up. They actually do do a bit of that with the unique Paladin spells, given how good they are.

But sadly the Bard ruins everything for everyone forever.

Why blue? :smalltongue:

Meh. They get other things (or should) at those levels. That's the trade-off. And yes. I've long thought that magical secrets makes very little sense either thematically or mechanically. Honestly, if I had to pick a class for a "cast someone else's spell" feature, it'd be sorcerers.

[paladinn]

Why blue? :smalltongue:

Meh. They get other things (or should) at those levels. That's the trade-off. And yes. I've long thought that magical secrets makes very little sense either thematically or mechanically. Honestly, if I had to pick a class for a "cast someone else's spell" feature, it'd be sorcerers.

Interesting how divine souls have access to cleric spells. A "primal soul" could get druid spells. A "tormented soul" could get warlock spells. A "soul man" could get bard spells (sorry, couldn't resist).

In PF2, a sorcerer can choose a spell list.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Interesting how divine souls have access to cleric spells. A "primal soul" could get druid spells. A "tormented soul" could get warlock spells. A "soul man" could get bard spells (sorry, couldn't resist).

In PF2, a sorcerer can choose a spell list.

I'm more leaning toward a model like
* Try to cast a spell you don't know. From any list of any level you could cast as a sorcerer[1], spending spell slot and actions as normal for that spell.
* Spend a sorcery point (possibly scaling by slot somehow)
* Make a check (of some type, TBD DC).
* On a success, the spell happens and you know the spell until you take a long rest and can cast it as a sorc spell.
* On a failure, you get the sorcery point(s) back. Still wasted the action (and possibly the slot?)
* Can only try this X/long rest (so limit X "off-list" spells known per day).

Want to cast Raise Dead? Are you the right level? You can try. If you succeed, it's "locked in" for the day. If you fail, you burned the cast time (and possibly the slot? TBD).

[1] meaning if you're a sorcerer 5/X Y, you can only try for 3rd level spells. Multiclassers can go hang. :smallbiggrin:

[Kane0]

Level 10: Spontaneous Sorcery:
You have uncanny magical talent, able to pull together just the spell you need when you need it. When you cast a spell you can choose to cast any spell of a level you can cast drawn from any list, as if it were one of your spells known. Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Level 20: Sorcerous Mastery:
After using your Spontaneous Sorcery ability you can do so again after finishing a short or long rest.

Full 'brew in sig for reference.

Warlocks make great priests though. A solid selection of auto-scaling spells, powerful and flexible ranged magic attack, boon and invocations to tailor your powers to match deity's portfolio. Celestial is a good catchall patron but hexblade works for warrior gods, genie for elemental deities, fey for tricksters, undead for evil or death powers, and so on.

[KorvinStarmast]

A "soul man" could get bard spells (sorry, couldn't resist). He's on a mission from {deity}. :smallsmile: Love your decision to go there. :smallsmile:


Level 10: Spontaneous Sorcery:
You have uncanny magical talent, able to pull together just the spell you need when you need it. When you cast a spell you can choose to cast any spell of a level you can cast drawn from any list, as if it were one of your spells known. Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Level 20: Sorcerous Mastery:
After using your Spontaneous Sorcery ability you can do so again after finishing a short or long rest.

Celestial is a good catchall patron but hexblade works for warrior gods, genie for elemental deities, fey for tricksters, undead for evil or death powers, and so on. Concur with your last, but wait a sec:
Level 20: Sorcerous Mastery:

When you cast a spell you can choose to cast any spell of a level you can cast drawn from any list, as if it were one of your spells known. Once you use this ability you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

After using your Spontaneous Sorcery ability you can do so again after finishing a short or long rest.
One, two or three (N) wishes per day, depending on how many short rests? :smalleek: (Maybe I misunderstood the feature).
I'd consider revising that 20th level ability to include
"can't cast the same spell twice per long rest"
but maybe that's getting too fiddly.

While you can DM-frown this one away, in theory one could cast 20-24 9th level spells with a 1 hour rest between each one. :smalleek: (I doubt that you or any sane DM would go along with that cheese).

PS: oddly, your sig disappeared. I am seeing the other ones, mostly.

[Doug Lampert]

He's on a mission from {deity}. :smallsmile: Love your decision to go there. :smallsmile:
Concur with your last, but wait a sec:
Level 20: Sorcerous Mastery:

After using your Spontaneous Sorcery ability you can do so again after finishing a short or long rest.
One, two or three (N) wishes per day, depending on how many short rests? :smalleek: (Maybe I misunderstood the feature).

You need to be able to cast the spell "as if it were one of your spells known", which means you're still limited by slots.