Order of lycan + path of beast = 4 attacks per turn?

[samcifer]

So is it possible to get 4 attacks per turn by having the barbarian path of the beast with claws as well as the blood hunter order of the lycan? PoB says you get a free extra claw attack as part of the attack action if you attack using your claws while OoL says if you attack with your claws while transformed, you can do another claw attack as a bonus action. If you have both, would that mean you have 4 attacks per turn?

[Psyren]

As written OoL refers to unarmed strikes rather than claws, even though it makes them slashing, so they're not the same weapons and one won't trigger the effects of the other. Sage Advice furthermore considers unarmed strikes and natural weapons to be separate.

If you want a bonus action attack as a Beast Barbarian I recommend playing a longtooth shifter or lizardfolk, this will get you 4 attacks at 5th level.

[Zhorn]

If you don't mind getting a little complex with your order of operation, Path of the Beast can do this at level 5 with any race;
originally posted in https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24915499&postcount=8


To start with we need an understanding of dropping vs picking up or drawing a weapon.
Picking up or drawing a weapon will consume your object interaction, while dropping something out of hand does not.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/584435399767883776
The intent is that letting go of something requires no appreciable effort. But picking it up does.
Next is the restriction on what can be done during your Action and between Attacks. The general rule is you cannot interrupt an action to insert something in the middle of it unless there is specific timing mentioned in the rule. This is usually used to explain why you cannot insert a Bonus Action in the middle of an Action if it's trigger is the Attack Action, but you can if the trigger was an Attack (that's another conversation, just setting up for context, now back on track).
The rules for Object Interactions do make such mentions of timing


Other Activity on Your Turn
...
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
...

Interacting with Objects Around You
Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and action:
draw or sheathe a sword
...
pick up a dropped axe
...


Breaking Up Your Move
...
Moving between Attacks
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks.
...
So Object Interactions can be done in tandem with Actions and Movement, and Movement is allowed to occur between attacks.
As an Object Interaction on your turn, you can draw a weapon (or two at once if using the Dual Wielder feat) or pick up a (singular) dropped weapon between Attacks, as either part of the next Attack being made, or as a function of your allowed Movement between Attacks.

Next up is the order of what types of Attacks are being made and whether they are under the Action or Bonus Action.

Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.
The Attacks using the claws from Form of the Beast make no requirement of using different hands for each attack, and so you can do all your claw Attacks in the Attack Action with the same hand if you wish (important if your Barbarian is a shield wielder). For our purposes we only want to make two claw Attacks, one with out initial Attack from the Attack Action, an the second from the triggered feature that allows for one addition claw attack as part of the same action using the same claw (Important, as at this point our opposite hand is currently holding a weapon).
Before we use the Extra Attack, we have a couple more things to be aware of.
First up is our base allowance of attacking with different weapons during the Attack Action

https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
Q: When you use Extra Attack, do you have to use the same weapon for all the attacks?
A: Extra Attack imposes no limitation on what you use for the attacks. You can use regular weapons, improvised weapons, unarmed strikes, or a combination of these options for the attacks.
Then there's the condition we want to trigger. As we're intending to use a Bonus Action attack, we must satisfy the requirements.

Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand.
So before we Attack with our weapon (having the light property assuming no Dual Wielder feat), we need to have one in each hand. As covered earlier we can draw or pick up as either part of Movement between Attacks, or as part of an Attack made with that weapon.
With a weapon now in each hand, we use the remaining Attack we have access to with Extra Attack, specifically using the most recently drawn/picked up weapon, and then follow it up with the Bonus Action allowed by meeting the conditions of Two-Weapon Fighting to Attack with the weapon we are holding in our opposite hand.

Now for sustainability each round, we need our starting and ending condition to always be the same.
Assuming no feats, start each round with a light melee weapon in each hand (also assuming you are already raging at this point with claws)

Step 1: Free actionless drop one weapon
Step 2: Attack Action with claw
Step 3: Free claw as part of the same action
Step 4: Object interaction pick up dropped weapon
Step 5: Extra Attack with that picked up weapon
Step 6: Bonus Action off hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting
With our end state now matching our starting state.
4 Attacks with a level 5 Path of the Beast Barbarian, all 100% RAW compliant and supported without feats

[Psyren]

^ While you can do the above sequence without feats or needing a special race, without the TWF fighting style the "offhand" bonus action weapon attack won't get your ability modifier added to the damage roll. For a barbarian that means you'll want either Fighting Initiate (in which case other feats are on the table too) or a dip into Fighter or Ranger.

[Boverk]

So is it possible to get 4 attacks per turn by having the barbarian path of the beast with claws as well as the blood hunter order of the lycan? PoB says you get a free extra claw attack as part of the attack action if you attack using your claws while OoL says if you attack with your claws while transformed, you can do another claw attack as a bonus action. If you have both, would that mean you have 4 attacks per turn?

I think a beast barb 5 with polearm mastery could do something similar.

slash with claws, slash with claws cause beast barb, second attack is a poke from a polearm, bonus action blunt damage from polearm mastery.

Beast barb 5/monk 2 could get 5 attacks I think

slash, slash, headbutt, flurry of blows

[samcifer]

^ While you can do the above sequence without feats or needing a special race, without the TWF fighting style the "offhand" bonus action weapon attack won't get your ability modifier added to the damage roll. For a barbarian that means you'll want either Fighting Initiate (in which case other feats are on the table too) or a dip into Fighter or Ranger.

Blood hunters have access to 2 weapon fighting style at lvl 2, so no sacrificing of damage.

[Psyren]

Blood hunters have access to 2 weapon fighting style at lvl 2, so no sacrificing of damage.

I was comparing a straight class Beast Barb to a multiclass or feat-using one there actually, not considering the Blood Hunter at all. (i.e. responding to Zhorn's post, not the OP.)

[JLandan]

If you don't mind getting a little complex with your order of operation, Path of the Beast can do this at level 5 with any race;
originally posted in https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24915499&postcount=8

I don't see why you have to drop and pick up a light weapon.

1. attack with Claw
2. free attack with Claw
3. extra attack with Claw
4. off-hand bonus attack with light weapon (no Str mod on damage)

[Willowhelm]

I don't see why you have to drop and pick up a light weapon.

1. attack with Claw
2. free attack with Claw
3. extra attack with Claw
4. off-hand bonus attack with light weapon (no Str mod on damage)

Two weapon fighting (the bonus action) has the requirement “When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand” and I am assuming the claw is not a light melee weapon.

[Zhorn]

Willowhelm has the right of it, the claws for Path of the Beast are both natural weapons and simple weapons, but not light weapons, so to trigger TWF (without feats or the debate on hold/wield and technical/natural language) you need a light weapon in each hand, but to get the claw attack for the additional free claw attack you need an empty hand (it's all in the post, but it's a long one and understandable to miss).

It's an over-the-top procedure, but it is rules compliant.

Psyren is right in stating the obvious, a feature from a race/class/feat etc will be stronger than a baseline option of the same form (ie: TFW is stronger with the fighting style).
The point of it being samcifer had more options than restricting themselves to only longtooth shifter or lizardfolk to get that additional attack. And I agree that both of those are thematically brilliant choices, both have a short rest limitation on the number of time you can do that, so you might not have it available on every encounter.

Assumedly samcifer was intending on that multiclass anyway, so I'd guess either a Beast5/Lycan2 or a Lycan5/Beast3 to get it all up and running without locking in their 4th level ASI choice.

[JLandan]

Two weapon fighting (the bonus action) has the requirement “When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand” and I am assuming the claw is not a light melee weapon.

It is specified as a simple melee weapon. I played a Beast Barb VHuman with dual-wielding feat to be able to use it off-hand at 3rd, but still needed two-weapon fighting to get the Str mod on damage.

Oh I see now, light in both hands not just the off-hand. I was totally playing it wrong!

[samcifer]

OoL Predatory Strikes says at the end:

"Additionally, when you use the Attack action to make an unarmed strike, you can make one additional unarmed strike as a bonus action." (The attacks are labeled as unarmed strikes that do slashing or bludgeoning damage, you choose which.)

PoB says on the Claws option:

"Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it's empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the attack action, you can make an additional claw attack as a part of the same action." (It also says above that than it counts as a simple melee weapon and you add your str mod to the attack and damage rolls for it.)

So could they both be used on the same character during the same turn for 4 attacks per turn? That's my real question.

[Gurgeh]

The claws are not unarmed strikes, so attacking with them does not qualify you for the bonus action attack from Predatory Strikes.

You could, however, make an unarmed strike with one of your "normal" attacks (in lieu of the beast claws or whatever conventional weapon you'd be running with) and qualify for the bonus action attack that way (while still getting the "free" claw attack). Note also that an unarmed strike does not require a free hand, so you avoid the tortured drop-and-grab problems the two-weapon approach runs into.

[samcifer]

The claws are not unarmed strikes, so attacking with them does not qualify you for the bonus action attack from Predatory Strikes.

You could, however, make an unarmed strike with one of your "normal" attacks (in lieu of the beast claws or whatever conventional weapon you'd be running with) and qualify for the bonus action attack that way (while still getting the "free" claw attack).

Yeah, it would be action for lycan unarmed strike as an attack, a claw for the extra attack, then a second claw attack as part of the attack action, then a second lycan unarmed strike as a bonus action for 4 attacks on my turn for (with maxed out str) 20 + 8 ( rage bonus damage) + 4d6 for the unarmed strikes and claw attacks.

[Zhorn]

Which isn't really much of a sacrifice considering Predatory Strikes is a 1d6 slashing +(STR or DEX) at 3rd level, so out of the gate it is on par with Form of the Beast's Claws being 1d6 slashing +STR.
And if you continue to level Bloodhunter, the Predatory Strikes will move up to d8's (reaching the d10's is off the table due to the 3 levels needed in Barbarian)
The devil's in the details in making sure you remember the Claws and Predatory Strikes are not interchangeable.

Action: Claws > Free Claw > Predatory Strike (or any other valid arrangement of that)
Bonus Action: Predatory Strikes


The distinction though is a bit silly and I think a sensible DM should house rule them as synergetic features considering what they are doing.
If I allowed Bloodhunters at my table, both features would compliment eachother, RAW be damned.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think a beast barb 5 with polearm mastery could do something similar.

slash with claws, slash with claws cause beast barb, second attack is a poke from a polearm, bonus action blunt damage from polearm mastery.

Beast barb 5/monk 2 could get 5 attacks I think

slash, slash, headbutt, flurry of blows
In order to use the bonus action attack from Polearm Master, you must ONLY attack with the Polearm.

[BerzerkerUnit]

OoL Predatory Strikes says at the end:

"Additionally, when you use the Attack action to make an unarmed strike, you can make one additional unarmed strike as a bonus action." (The attacks are labeled as unarmed strikes that do slashing or bludgeoning damage, you choose which.)

PoB says on the Claws option:

"Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it's empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the attack action, you can make an additional claw attack as a part of the same action." (It also says above that than it counts as a simple melee weapon and you add your str mod to the attack and damage rolls for it.)

So could they both be used on the same character during the same turn for 4 attacks per turn? That's my real question.

Yes. At level 5, Right hand POB claw, left hand BHOL claw. Attack action= {attack with right, triggers free claw, extra attack, attack with left, triggers bonus action claw}.

You only get 4 attacks while raging, you get 3 the rest of the time. There’s no reason to go through all that juggling.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, there is not a general rule about not interrupting your own actions with other actions you can perform. Bonus actions can explicitly be performed at any time during your turn unless conditional, and once the condition has triggered, can be executed before, after, or during any component of the condition. Example: taking the attack action means you’re spending your turn attacking, but that can mean standing still, moving before, after, between attacks, etc. if taking the attack action is the trigger, a bonus action can be taken before, after, or between because it specifies it can be taken at any time. TWF specifies taking the attack action to make an attack with the main hand weapon, not having made the attack and determined the result. So you can stab with both hands simultaneously, stick with the left then slash with the right, etc.

[Master O'Laughs]

Yeah, it would be action for lycan unarmed strike as an attack, a claw for the extra attack, then a second claw attack as part of the attack action, then a second lycan unarmed strike as a bonus action for 4 attacks on my turn for (with maxed out str) 20 + 8 ( rage bonus damage) + 4d6 for the unarmed strikes and claw attacks.

You also get a scaling bonus to damage with your unarmed strikes as well as bloodrite damage.

So for two of your attacks you would gain an additional 1d4+1 damage is you stayed at OoL 3.

So at level 8, you could be doing 4d6 (basic attacks)+2d6 (blood rite)+20 (maxed STR)+8 (rage)+2 (Feral Might) which would be 51 avg damage before considering accuracy but with reckless attack you should hit most of the time.

If you go BH17/Barb3 your level 20 damage would look like: 2d6 (PoB)+2d8 (OoL Attacks)+2d10 (Blood Rite)+20 (STR)+8 (Rage)+4 (Feral Might) = 59 avg damage

Alternatively, you could forgo the PoB attack which would look like 3d8+3d10+20+6+6= 62 Avg damage. But at that point, you might want to forget PoB and just for Barb 2 because you could get an additional +1 to each attack and would also net you curse of the Blood Howl. You also get regeneration if you go mostly blood hunter.

Going more barb 17/3 PoB/OoL instead gets you 4d6 (basic attacks)+2d4 (blood rite)+20 (maxed STR)+16 (rage)+2 (Feral Might) = 57 avg damage with the occasional force an enemy you hit to either attack a creature of you choice or take 2d12 psychic damage.

You do slightly less damage and lose regeneration but have a lot more health.

Also, going straight barb from a damage standpoint would look like 3d6 (basic attacks)+21 (STR)+12 (Rage) = 43.5 avg damage which is a decent hit but you can constantly be in rage and you lose the downside of OoL that if you are below half HP you might go feral.