Creating Free Holy Water from an Artificer Infusion

[Silpharon]

Hey guys,

I'm always looking for new ways to optimize my artificer infusions, and Tasha's added the lovely 1st level Spellwrought Tattoo options. My DM's ruling is that when an infusion is learned, a specific 1st level Spellwrought Tattoo can be learned. There are the obvious ones like Find Familiar and Gift of Alacrity, but I wanted to find a valuable one for downtime days.

Enter the Ceremony spell. One of the options includes:

Bless Water. You touch one vial of water and cause it to become holy water.

Now usually casting the spell requires 25gp of consumed powdered silver, but we get around this via the Spellwrought Tattoo which states:
...you can cast its spell, requiring no material components.

So, once per long rest, my artificer can create a Ceremony Spellwrought Tattoo, ink it onto my skin, and cast it to convert a vial of water to holy water. A vial of holy water sells for 25gp, so my character could start up a holy water pop-up stand to sell the blessed liquids and make some coin.

I know there's an even better money maker infusion from the Alchemy Jug, which lets you fill two vials with acid per day (50gp value). You could combine both infusions to get 75gp/day.

I also plan to pick up Bless and Protection from Good and Evil through multiclassing. Both of these require holy water, so this is kind of a fun way to get my spell components. Plus that familiar of mine (from a different Spellwrought Tattoo) can drop holy water on my fiendish enemies, dealing damage from a familiar!

Just thought I'd share... Thought it was a fun concept. :)

[stoutstien]

Have a polymath undead/vampire/occult hunter build floating around somewhere that used battlesmith and thief for fast hands to use all the "grenades" as a bonus action + all the other rogue goodies. Not optimized at all but I'm waiting for an opportunity to try it.

[Silpharon]

Have a polymath undead/vampire/occult hunter build floating around somewhere that used battlesmith and thief for fast hands to use all the "grenades" as a bonus action + all the other rogue goodies. Not optimized at all but I'm waiting for an opportunity to try it.

Cool! I like the concept. Which "grenades" would you regularly use? This trick produces 1 holy water per day. You could get 2 acid vials per day from Alchemy Jug. That's not much for a regular use strategy... Were you thinking of buying others?

[stoutstien]

Cool! I like the concept. Which "grenades" would you regularly use? This trick produces 1 holy water per day. You could get 2 acid vials per day from Alchemy Jug. That's not much for a regular use strategy... Were you thinking of buying others?

Oil flasks would be the cheap filler for all the other ones. Firebolt/create bonfire/torch and oil isn't going to wow anyone but it's fun.
All of them can be produced with alchemist supplies during downtime. Not a concept for a hack n slash game but if the time table is slowish I'd have plenty of time to load up on goodies.

Ball bearing and caltrops are also nasty against mindless undead. Nothing stops you from reusing them if cash is short.

The big goal was to design it in such a way that it didn't rely on any single strategy while staying on theme. Was half tempted to use the mastermaker subclass and still might.

[Silpharon]

Oil flasks would be the cheap filler for all the other ones. Firebolt/create bonfire/torch and oil isn't going to wow anyone but it's fun.
All of them can be produced with alchemist supplies during downtime. Not a concept for a hack n slash game but if the time table is slowish I'd have plenty of time to load up on goodies.

Ball bearing and caltrops are also nasty against mindless undead. Nothing stops you from reusing them if cash is short.

The big goal was to design it in such a way that it didn't rely on any single strategy while staying on theme. Was half tempted to use the mastermaker subclass and still might.

Cool! Sounds fun!

Well I just realized to my disappointment that this trick does not produce 25gp of holy water. The Ceremony ritual produces a "vial" while the PHB holy water item is a "flask". You need 4 vials to make a flask.

What's weird is that the holy water flask item description also says a cleric can create the item with 25gp of silver powder, which is the same material cost as Ceremony. I wonder if the Ceremony spell used vial in the description by mistake?

[stoutstien]

Cool! Sounds fun!

Well I just realized to my disappointment that this trick does not produce 25gp of holy water. The Ceremony ritual produces a "vial" while the PHB holy water item is a "flask". You need 4 vials to make a flask.

What's weird is that the holy water flask item description also says a cleric can create the item with 25gp of silver powder, which is the same material cost as Ceremony. I wonder if the Ceremony spell used vial in the description by mistake?

I wouldn't read into the flask/vial thing too much. Mostly it's to prevent someone from blessing the rains in Africa. I personally say treat them the same. Flasks and vial are used pretty interchangeably throughout the game.

[JackPhoenix]

I wouldn't read into the flask/vial thing too much. Mostly it's to prevent someone from blessing the rains in Africa. I personally say treat them the same. Flasks and vial are used pretty interchangeably throughout the game.

That's just, like, your opinion. They aren't any more interchangeable than jugs and barrels are.

[stoutstien]

That's just, like, your opinion. They aren't any more interchangeable than jugs and barrels are.
Based on the fact that anything that has a costly spell component doesn't consider the volume of said component. 25g of powdered silver is used for the flask or vial of holy water and the volume doesn't matter because it can only ever effect one target.

**Containers generally don't make sense if you give it more than a passing glance.**

[JackPhoenix]

Based on the fact that anything that has a costly spell component doesn't consider the volume of said component. 25g of powdered silver is used for the flask or vial of holy water and the volume doesn't matter because it can only ever effect one target.

**Containers generally don't make sense if you give it more than a passing glance.**

If volume doesn't matter, there's no need to throw whole flasks. Just splash a drop of holy water on the target, you'll get the same benefit and much more use for the 25 gp you've paid for the flask.

[stoutstien]

If volume doesn't matter, there's no need to throw whole flasks. Just splash a drop of holy water on the target, you'll get the same benefit and much more use for the 25 gp you've paid for the flask.

I mean yeah? That already how it works. Nothing in rules say the entirety of the contents has to land on the target to work but once it used it's done.if only half the content is used the remainder isn't holy water. Makes sense when you are splashing it on a target. The volume is irrelevant to the effects and cost. All consumables work this way.

[JackPhoenix]

I mean yeah? That already how it works. Nothing in rules say the entirety of the contents has to land on the target to work but once it used it's done.if only half the content is used the remainder isn't holy water. Makes sense when you are splashing it on a target. The volume is irrelevant to the effects and cost. All consumables work this way.

Except they do not. The effect of a thrown flask of holy water is specifically for a... prepare to get your mind blown... a flask of holy water. Not a drop of holy water, not a vial of holy water, and not a barrel of holy water.

[stoutstien]

Except they do not. The effect of a thrown flask of holy water is specifically for a... prepare to get your mind blown... a flask of holy water. Not a drop of holy water, not a vial of holy water, and not a barrel of holy water.

So? Do I have to have exactly a 2lbs bag of ball bearings to use it? If I add or remove one more does it suddenly become something else? How bout a half burnt torch or candle? Half a ration consumed has what effects? If I put a crossbolt into a quiver meant for arrows does it disappear or hit an invisible wall?

Relying on RaW here leads to madness. There is zero mechanical advantages for using a flask vs vial of holy water. Not to mention the insanity of saying every container of a certain type, in the entirety existence, had the exact same dimensions even in a fanatic world.

**Makes a slightly smaller barrel.....world explodes**

[JackPhoenix]

So? Do I have to have exactly a 2lbs bag of ball bearings to use it? If I add or remove one more does it suddenly become something else? How bout a half burnt torch or candle? Half a ration consumed has what effects? If I put a crossbolt into a quiver meant for arrows does it disappear or hit an invisible wall?

Relying on RaW here leads to madness. There is zero mechanical advantages for using a flask vs vial of holy water. Not to mention the insanity of saying every container of a certain type, in the entirety existence, had the exact same dimensions even in a fanatic world.

**Makes a slightly smaller barrel.....world explodes**

There's a difference between "There's 950 ball bearings in this bag instead of the 1000" and "Instead of an entire flask, I'll throw this tiny vial instead". If a quarter amount of something is required for the same effect as the full amount, I guess fighters don't need to worry about putting together 1500 gp for a plate armor, they can get the same for 375 gp. After all, not every gold coin has exactly the same dimensions as every other gold coin.

[stoutstien]

There's a difference between "There's 950 ball bearings in this bag instead of the 1000" and "Instead of an entire flask, I'll throw this tiny vial instead". If a quarter amount of something is required for the same effect as the full amount, I guess fighters don't need to worry about putting together 1500 gp for a plate armor, they can get the same for 375 gp. After all, not every gold coin has exactly the same dimensions as every other gold coin.

The point is the flask and vial *do* have the same action,gold, range, effect, and production cost. It doesn't matter if it's a flask or vial.no one is trying to split a flask into different vials to increase their stockpile.

Heck anyone using holy water is already taking a huge hit in effectiveness for flavor. Even fighting vampires using it is probably the least effective use of your action even if you don't cancel it's regen.

[JackPhoenix]

The point is the flask and vial *do* have the same action,gold, range, effect, and production cost. It doesn't matter if it's a flask or vial.no one is trying to split a flask into different vials to increase their stockpile.

All right, I do not how many times I do have to repeat it before you understand: They. Do. Not. There's no cost for a vial of holy water, there's no range for a vial of holy water (outside the 20/60 range for a generic improvised ranged weapon), and there's no effect for a vial of holy water anywhere in the published books. There is all of that for a flask of holy water.

[stoutstien]

All right, I do not how many times I do have to repeat it before you understand: They. Do. Not. There's no cost for a vial of holy water, there's no range for a vial of holy water (outside the 20/60 range for a generic improvised ranged weapon), and there's no effect for a vial of holy water anywhere in the published books. There is all of that for a flask of holy water.
So your point is what? the RaW are only a starting point for adjudicating 90% of the things in the game? If a DM wants to be a dink then holy water is the least of the worries.

[Silpharon]

All right, I do not how many times I do have to repeat it before you understand.
No need to get heated...

I do see obscurity in how vials and flasks are treated for holy water:

Option 1 from PHB: Spend 25gp worth of powdered silver in an hour ritual and expend a level 1 spell slot to produce a flask of holy water worth 25gp. This flask can be used as a "grenade".

Option 2 from XGE (ritual cast ceremony): Spend 25gp worth of powdered silver in an hour and ten-minute ritual to produce a vial of holy water worth 6gp.

Option 3 from XGE (slot cast ceremony): Spend 25gp worth of powdered silver in an hour-long spell casting, expending a level 1 spell slot, to produce a vial of holy water worth 6gp.

Given a PC is typically in downtime when doing this, expending a spell slot makes little difference. A cleric or paladin would not want to use the ceremony spell to create holy water in the vast majority of circumstances.

In both Curse of Strahd and Storm King’s Thunder characters can find vials of holy water, not flasks:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/154948/can-a-vial-of-holy-water-be-used-as-a-weapon

Is a character in those campaigns suppose to think - "so glad we found a vial, if we pour four of these into a flask, then we can use it as a weapon!" Probably not...

5e is chalk full of errors which frustratingly WotC doesn't think to correct in errata (ahem, Amulet of the Devout). I think this is just another error. My take would be that the PHB has it wrong, and the original item should be a vial (worth 25gp). This would match the acid "grenade", which is thematically similar, and makes more sense volume-wise. What's easier to picture, a cleric with holy water in a vial or in a pint glass? Subjective, but I'd say the former.

[JackPhoenix]

5e is chalk full of errors (which frustratingly WotC doesn't think to correct in errata). I think this is just another error. My take would be that the PHB has it wrong, and the original item should be a vial (worth 25gp). This would match the acid "grenade", which is thematically similar, and makes more sense volume-wise. What's easier to picture, a cleric with holy water in a vial or in a pint glass? Subjective, but I'd say the former.

I agree there's an error somewhere. However, as it is not clear whether the error is in PHB or the other sources, and the other sources do not have equipment entry for a vial of holy water that would otherwise be identical to the PHB flask of holy water entry (and thus could be considered more recent), I'd say the PHB version is the true one. In any case, as PHB has different volume listed for flasks and vials, claims that "vials and flasks are interchangeable" are outright false.

[stoutstien]

I agree there's an error somewhere. However, as it is not clear whether the error is in PHB or the other sources, and the other sources do not have equipment entry for a vial of holy water that would otherwise be identical to the PHB flask of holy water entry (and thus could be considered more recent), I'd say the PHB version is the true one. In any case, as PHB has different volume listed for flasks and vials, claims that "vials and flasks are interchangeable" are outright false.

So take the vial of holy water and dump it in a flask and then add water for proper volume. Call it a pedantic pour.

[JackPhoenix]

So take the vial of holy water and dump it in a flask and then add water for proper volume. Call it a pedantic pour.

Sure. But pour the flask into four vials first to end up with 4 flasks in the end.

[stoutstien]

Sure. But pour the flask into four vials first to end up with 4 flasks in the end.

So you end up with 4 flasks but zero holy waters or one vial of holy water and 3 vials of water because thats what makes sense. It's holy water not Tang.

[Silpharon]

I did a search through 5e literature, and came up with the following instances of the words "flask" and "vial" for holy water specifically:

Rulebooks:
Player's Handbook: 2 instances of "flask"
Dungeon Master's Guide: 1 instance of "vial"
Xanathar's Guide to Everything: 1 instance of "vial"

Adventures:
Curse of Strahd: 2 instances of "vial"
Storm King's Thunder: 2 instances of "vial"
Tales from the Yawning Portal, The Forge of Fury: 1 instance of "flask"
Waterdeep, Dragon Heist: 1 instance of "vial"
Waterdeep, Dungeon of the Mad Mage: 1 instance of "vial"
The Orrery of the Wanderer: 1 instance of "vial" and 1 instance of "flask"
Baldur's Gate, Descent Into Avernus: 1 instance of "vial" and 2 instances of "flask"
Icewind Dale, Rime of the Frostmaiden: 1 instance of "vial"
Return to the Glory: 1 instance of "vial"
Strixhaven, Campus Kerfuffle: 2 instances of "flask"

Total "flask" instances: 8
Total "vial" instances: 12

The terms certainly do seem interchangeably used based on this data. In the adventures, the instances are almost always referring to treasure found.

[JackPhoenix]

So you end up with 4 flasks but zero holy waters or one vial of holy water and 3 vials of water because thats what makes sense. It's holy water not Tang.

If you can "take the vial of holy water and dump it in a flask and then add water for proper volume", then you can also take a flask of holy water, divide it into 4 vials, then dump the vials into 4 flasks and add water for proper volume. Because that's what makes sense to you.

[stoutstien]

If you can "take the vial of holy water and dump it in a flask and then add water for proper volume", then you can also take a flask of holy water, divide it into 4 vials, then dump the vials into 4 flasks and add water for proper volume. Because that's what makes sense to you.

No. I said if you start with one and end with one that makes sense and if a DM is being obtuse and thinks a vial and flask are different then turning one vial into one flask is valid. Same if you dump it into a bucket or a barrel. You still have one holy water. It's DnD not fluid mechanics. the vehicle of delivery isn't important as long as the overall costs are similar. Not like we aren't talking about a severely underpowered choice that falls below just headbutting the target 90% of the time.

[Silpharon]

LOL...

Ok guys:

1) The volumes of a vial and a flask are not equal.
2) The fact that vials of holy water are scattered throughout the literature even moreso than flasks makes distinguishing between the uses and value of the two sizes difficult.

For lack of concise WotC writing, it's up to the DM to provide clarity on how to handle the two sizes.

Personally, I would rule all holy water flasks should have been vials. 2d6 off 25gp is already weak. No need to make it weaker for casters of Ceremony (or found vials).

[Chronos]

Where is the rule that says that vials and flasks are different?

[Grim Portent]

Where is the rule that says that vials and flasks are different?

PHB 153, they're both listed as containers and have volumes listed. Vials hold 4 ounces of liquid and flasks hold 1 pint.

That said, I don't think the intention was for the distinction to matter with regards to holy water, for the purposes of creating holy water or distributing it as loot in adventure paths they probably just used flask and vial interchangeably without thinking about one of the least used parts of the PHB. I only know about the difference because I actually wanted to make a character who had to do things like carry food and water and so on at one point as a thought exercise, so knowing the size of sacks and barrels and chests and so on mattered.

[Mjolnirbear]

So... You're sacrificing other infusions for a bit of extra gold per day? Sounds like a downtime activity that could be resolved by actually making the gear.

I don't understand why you'd actually do this? It doesn't have any real roleplay value to my mind, and adventuring gets you far richer than downtime. Clear out a kobold cave for the same amount and more fun?

[Silpharon]

So... You're sacrificing other infusions for a bit of extra gold per day? Sounds like a downtime activity that could be resolved by actually making the gear.

I don't understand why you'd actually do this? It doesn't have any real roleplay value to my mind, and adventuring gets you far richer than downtime. Clear out a kobold cave for the same amount and more fun?
While making gear (in downtime), you can also make holy water. It isn't wasted time, you might as well use your active infusions instead of keeping Enhanced Weapon running.

Thematically it works for me, I'm getting the Bless spell (Fey Touched is a good way to get it). It's a material component for the spell. The tattoo is a symbol of Mystra on the palm of my hand. I will chant in Celestial (to the tempo/notes of the monk chant in Monty Python's Holy Grail):

Ne ble-laal too-at ku-res
go-ho-lor fvue lonsh ec-rin

Which translates to:
Holy blessing provided here
Lift up the exalted; praise!

Translator:
https://lingojam.com/EnglishtoCelestial

Sometimes downtime happens for some reason or another thematically. It's not like I'm sitting through multiple real life sessions tinkering on some armor I'm building. We just say (paraphrasing), "a week goes by, this stuff happens..." Now get on with the adventure.