Elan's Happy Ending

[brian 333]

"Happy for you," is the answer to Elan's question.

So, what is it that Elan requires to be happy? Haley, of course. Any ending that costs him the love of his life won't qualify.

And he will need an audience, another adventure, and a future that allows him to be old and surrounded by loved ones.

I have proposed elsewhere that I think The Snarl is, or is becoming, a DM. It is creating a world. It will want adventurers to explore this new world.

I think, also, that both in story growth and in art upgrades, The Giant has been turning his two-dimensional generic dungeon crawl into a multilayered work. It has been progressing since I started reading the comic sometime before the first 'mail' strip, and I expect that progress to continue right to the end.

So, my concept of Elan's happy ending:

Elan and Haley step through the rift and find themselves on a road that leads to a village. There are lights in the village inn and the sound of laughter, but beyond, on the crag overlooking the village is the ruins of a dark castle.

Elan turns to Haley and says, "You look absolutely amazing in 3D."

Haley blushes and says, "Thank you Elan. You look good too. I didn't expect that bump in your face to be that large. Is mine..."

"It's perfect," Elan interrupts.

They gaze into one another's 3D eyes for a while, then Elan asks, "Wanna get a room at the inn?"

"I thought you'd never ask," she replies, and the pair walk hand in hand toward the inn.

In the distant background far above the tiny village a shadow flaps enormous shadowy wings.

As for the OotSverse, perhaps there is a reset, after the ones who wish migrate into the Snarlverse, or perhaps the rifts are sealed and the new DM, having all it needs, is content to run a few millennia worth of games.

In any case, I have anticipated something along these lines since The Oracle strips. There are a few posts on it, but my Kung Fu is weak. Forum Search defeats me almost every time.

What are your thoughts, or alternate endings?

[Bundin]

"Happy for you," is the answer to Elan's question.

So, what is it that Elan requires to be happy? Haley, of course. Any ending that costs him the love of his life won't qualify.

*snip*

What are your thoughts, or alternate endings?
Haley dies, but is fully at peace with that because she willingly sacrificed herself to save the current Ootsiverse. With that, she completed her journey from "more monies and loot" to "doing what's right because it's the right thing to do".

Bittersweet ending for Elan. Is bittersweet covered under 'happy'? With some time and Elans genre-savvyness, it is. And it does fit the for you part rather nicely.

[hroþila]

The Oracle didn't merely say that Elan would be happy at the end of the story — he said that the story would have a happy ending (for him, at least), which is quite different. I'd argue that that rules out bittersweet endings, because bittersweet endings are bittersweet, not happy. Elan's character growth could make him see a bittersweet ending as an acceptable outcome to the crisis, but not as a happy ending to a story.

[Emmit Svenson]

Elan knows he's mortal, that he'll die eventually. He doesn't dwell on it.

For him, a happy ending would be a heroic death, perhaps saving the people he cares about most in the world--and the world itself, as well.

That wouldn't be a happy ending for the survivors, though, would it? A happy ending...for him, at least.

[Mike Havran]

I see the final panels of the story depicting aged Elan, as he just finished telling his story about the heroic OotS to a young audience, in richly decorated Haley's Inn.

[hungrycrow]

Elan knows he's mortal, that he'll die eventually. He doesn't dwell on it.

For him, a happy ending would be a heroic death, perhaps saving the people he cares about most in the world--and the world itself, as well.

That wouldn't be a happy ending for the survivors, though, would it? A happy ending...for him, at least.

Living into old age alongside Haley is certainly happier than dying heroically. That still sounds like a bittersweet end.
I don't think Elan's happy ending could involve him, Haley, or Roy dying. Maybe he'd accept a death from the others if it was suitably heroic.

[woweedd]

Well, the "for you" implies it will NOT be happy for a lot of people, including, i'm guessing, at least one member of the party. Elan himself is definitely safe, and i'd guess that Haley and Roy are almost-certainly safe as well (Elan wouldn't consider an ending without his girlfriend or best friend happy at all), leaving Durkon, V, and Belkar as question marks. Smart money is on Belkar (he's gonna die, and soon), with Durkon having the lowest odds of an unhappy ending.

[Ruck]

I don't think Elan's happy ending could involve him, Haley, or Roy dying. Maybe he'd accept a death from the others if it was suitably heroic.

Yeah, I think that is correct.


Well, the "for you" implies it will NOT be happy for a lot of people, including, i'm guessing, at least one member of the party. Elan himself is definitely safe, and i'd guess that Haley and Roy are almost-certainly safe as well (Elan wouldn't consider an ending without his girlfriend or best friend happy at all), leaving Durkon, V, and Belkar as question marks. Smart money is on Belkar (he's gonna die, and soon), with Durkon having the lowest odds of an unhappy ending.

I think only one member of the Order's status at the end of the story is really in question.

Elan - won't die (promised a happy ending)
Haley - won't die (Elan was promised a happy ending)
Roy - won't die (Elan was promised a happy ending; plus, he is the main hero of the story; plus, we already did that one)
Durkon - won't die (he has a son to get back to; plus, we already did that one)
Belkar - will die (as foretold by the Oracle)

Vaarsuvius is the only member of the Order I think is genuinely up in the air on the question. If I had to put my money on it, I'd bet on V not dying and instead finding a way to use the rest of their life to make amends. But I could certainly see enough possibilities for ways V could die that would be satisfying to the story that I think it could easily go either way.

[hungrycrow]

Well, the "for you" implies it will NOT be happy for a lot of people, including, i'm guessing, at least one member of the party. Elan himself is definitely safe, and i'd guess that Haley and Roy are almost-certainly safe as well (Elan wouldn't consider an ending without his girlfriend or best friend happy at all), leaving Durkon, V, and Belkar as question marks. Smart money is on Belkar (he's gonna die, and soon), with Durkon having the lowest odds of an unhappy ending.

I think "yes, for you at least" implies that there will be some exceptions to the happy ending, not that Elan's happy ending would be the exception. Remember that Elan mourned Therkla, who he barely knew, and in the illusion he mourned Belkar, who was a total jerk at the time. If every side character dies somehow Elan definitely won't be happy about it.

Also remember there's a lot of space between character death and happy ending. If V walks off into the sunset on a never-ending quest to make amends, that wouldn't be a happy ending for them, but it wouldn't be tragic enough to ruin Elan's ending.

[Kol Korran]

Hmmmm... I had an entirely different interpertation.

I know it may feel odd, but... I think Elan already had his happy ending. Elan asked how will the STORY end. Elan, being a bard and very narrative-savvy, thinks in terms of stories. Not in terms of real life and realities... That is the core of his naivete.

Well, until the powerful illusion in the pyramid's corridor. He got his full story, with the happiest ending possible there. But it wasn't real. A happy ending, does not mean a real ending, and thus devoid of actual meaning, a lie... I think that was Elan's lesson and growth (or the major revelation in the process)- That real life is more important than stories, and that trying to conform/ create/ lead to teh structure of stories, including "happy endings", may lead to cheapen and devalue what really happens, what really matters, people themselves...

"For you, at least" is to me a sort of hint and reprimend to this: Elan sought a happy ending, and the illusion-dream-life enabled to create his happy ending, but in so doing forced "happiness" on his mother, and quite possible (I won't go into THAT discussion) for others in his dream-life.

Elan's desire, some may say longing, for a happy ending, had the potential to twist, shape, and distort other peoples lives & realities, for it to come to pass. Or in another way- Elan's "happy ending" could in fact be cruel to others, even unintentionally. "A happy ending, for you at least". Elan's growth, and reaffirmation of his goodness (A strange noun, but it works for Elan, especially in this case), is his ability to let go of his naivate, of his desire for a happy ending, for his own happiness, in order to not be cruel, and to accept reality, with the good and the bad.

To me, THIS event was Elan's "happy ending", and his... Test of character and growth, which he surpassed. From here one he was able to accept reality more- His father being an evil monster, not needing to come to terms/ finish the story with his dad, and so on.

The oracle's answers related to pivotal character growth, except for Belkar (but later on we DID get a divination hint for a pivotal moment for him as well) and Roy (but that was more of a plot point)

I know, may be a bit odd, but that is my interpertation

[hungrycrow]

Hmmmm... I had an entirely different interpertation.

I know it may feel odd, but... I think Elan already had his happy ending. Elan asked how will the STORY end. Elan, being a bard and very narrative-savvy, thinks in terms of stories. Not in terms of real life and realities... That is the core of his naivete.

Well, until the powerful illusion in the pyramid's corridor. He got his full story, with the happiest ending possible there. But it wasn't real. A happy ending, does not mean a real ending, and thus devoid of actual meaning, a lie... I think that was Elan's lesson and growth (or the major revelation in the process)- That real life is more important than stories, and that trying to conform/ create/ lead to teh structure of stories, including "happy endings", may lead to cheapen and devalue what really happens, what really matters, people themselves...

"For you, at least" is to me a sort of hint and reprimend to this: Elan sought a happy ending, and the illusion-dream-life enabled to create his happy ending, but in so doing forced "happiness" on his mother, and quite possible (I won't go into THAT discussion) for others in his dream-life.

Elan's desire, some may say longing, for a happy ending, had the potential to twist, shape, and distort other peoples lives & realities, for it to come to pass. Or in another way- Elan's "happy ending" could in fact be cruel to others, even unintentionally. "A happy ending, for you at least". Elan's growth, and reaffirmation of his goodness (A strange noun, but it works for Elan, especially in this case), is his ability to let go of his naivate, of his desire for a happy ending, for his own happiness, in order to not be cruel, and to accept reality, with the good and the bad.

To me, THIS event was Elan's "happy ending", and his... Test of character and growth, which he surpassed. From here one he was able to accept reality more- His father being an evil monster, not needing to come to terms/ finish the story with his dad, and so on.

The oracle's answers related to pivotal character growth, except for Belkar (but later on we DID get a divination hint for a pivotal moment for him as well) and Roy (but that was more of a plot point)

I know, may be a bit odd, but that is my interpertation We've been over this in another thread. It's an interesting interpretation, but Rich has said in commentaries that Elan hasn't gotten his happy ending yet, and that ending will actually be happy.

[littlebum2002]

Or maybe the word "happy" in "happy ending" doesn't really mean "joyful", it means "appropriate", like in "a happy coincidence"

[RatElemental]

We've been over this in another thread. It's an interesting interpretation, but Rich has said in commentaries that Elan hasn't gotten his happy ending yet, and that ending will actually be happy.

I recall him saying somewhere that that prophecy was supposed to be early confirmation that the world wouldn't get destroyed, too.

[Valorium]

I guess the question then becomes "well, if we know that all the parties that want the world to explode lose, and all the parties that want to rule over and subjugate the world lose, then how is narrative tension maintained?"

Because we can assume at least that a world where Xykon, V's underworld pals or Hel wins will not result in a happy ending for Elan. That only leaves the heroes winning, Redcloak winning (if he gets a lot less bloodthirsty and a lot more egalitarian) or some unknown third option. I think.

[georgie_leech]

I guess the question then becomes "well, if we know that all the parties that want the world to explode lose, and all the parties that want to rule over and subjugate the world lose, then how is narrative tension maintained?"

Because we can assume at least that a world where Xykon, V's underworld pals or Hel wins will not result in a happy ending for Elan. That only leaves the heroes winning, Redcloak winning (if he gets a lot less bloodthirsty and a lot more egalitarian) or some unknown third option. I think.

Well, that and plenty of stories have stakes that we ultimately know are gonna turn out fine. Like, no one really thought that the Death Star was going to blow up all the Rebels and The Empire would rule forever. There are all sorts of stories where the heroes ultimately prevailing are a given; what matters is how they do it, and what it will cost. Narrative tension exists on more levels than just "will the protagonists do the thing they wanted."

[Peelee]

Well, that and plenty of stories have stakes that we ultimately know are gonna turn out fine. Like, no one really thought that the Death Star was going to blow up all the Rebels and The Empire would rule forever. There are all sorts of stories where the heroes ultimately prevailing are a given; what matters is how they do it, and what it will cost. Narrative tension exists on more levels than just "will the protagonists do the thing they wanted."

This is an excellent point and a big reason (well, one of the many) why I dislike the MCU - when you keep upping the stakes and upping the stakes and upping the stakes, it gets kind of boring. America is about to be destroyed, the planet is about to be destroyed, half the universe is about to be destroyed, etc. etc. Even when they pulled back, they didn't really. They just changed the details. A small town is about to be destroyed. Stories that have big sweeping stakes get old after a while. More personal stories where the stakes are small and only really matter to the characters are excellent. Most Shane Black masterpieces (eg Kiss Kiss Bang Bang or The Nice Guys, for example) wouldn't really have anything change much if the heroes died. In Jojo Rabbit, we know who wins the war, because that doesn't matter, because it's set dressing. It only matters in how it affects Johannes, Elsa, and Rosie (and even though it's an explicitly fictional film, I am stopping there and not elaborating any further on that specific example).

The Death Star is a good one-off plot device. The Snarl is a good one-off plot device. The characters care about the big stakes, so we're invested in it because we're invested in the characters and they take us along for the ride. But in continuing series when the big stakes keep happening and keep happening, it's harder to care, because it just becomes, as the sky pirates called it, the "apocalypse of the week".

[Valorium]

Fair enough. I mean it in more of a broad sense – that most of the scenarios wherein the the villains win in any capacity could be argued to be an unhappy ending given the degree to which Elan cares about other people. As has been pointed out elsewhere, even within the context of Elan's storytelling-fourth-wall-busting point of view (which is a matter of debate in of itself in terms of importance now), he cares deeply about "side characters". It's even set up as a specific difference between him and his father – they both make note of those tropes, but Elan cares anyway. Thus, most of the "anyone in the party dies" theories lose a lot of weight unless Rich can suitably convince both Elan and us that it would be a happy ending if someone did kick it. I'm sure he can, but it's worth discussing regardless.

[hungrycrow]

In my opinion tension doesn't really come from unpredictability but from character emotion. Even if we know almost everyone is going to survive, the main characters are still going to be concerned about the danger, so there will still be tension. That's also why upping the stakes doesn't really up the tension; characters don't have much emotion about abstract millions, so we don't really care either.

As for predictions, I'd say that we're going to max out at two deaths on the good/neutral side. Any more than that in a single arc and there stops being enough time for characters to process individual deaths. Bad guys are free game though.

[littlebum2002]

This is an excellent point and a big reason (well, one of the many) why I dislike the MCU - when you keep upping the stakes and upping the stakes and upping the stakes, it gets kind of boring. America is about to be destroyed, the planet is about to be destroyed, half the universe is about to be destroyed, etc. etc. Even when they pulled back, they didn't really. They just changed the details. A small town is about to be destroyed. Stories that have big sweeping stakes get old after a while. More personal stories where the stakes are small and only really matter to the characters are excellent. Most Shane Black masterpieces (eg Kiss Kiss Bang Bang or The Nice Guys, for example) wouldn't really have anything change much if the heroes died. In Jojo Rabbit, we know who wins the war, because that doesn't matter, because it's set dressing. It only matters in how it affects Johannes, Elsa, and Rosie (and even though it's an explicitly fictional film, I am stopping there and not elaborating any further on that specific example).

The Death Star is a good one-off plot device. The Snarl is a good one-off plot device. The characters care about the big stakes, so we're invested in it because we're invested in the characters and they take us along for the ride. But in continuing series when the big stakes keep happening and keep happening, it's harder to care, because it just becomes, as the sky pirates called it, the "apocalypse of the week".

I was a huge fan of the MCU until, after spending years of getting me invested in the Hulk's character development and internal struggles, they solved it all off-screen. I don't care about the Snap, I care about how it is affecting the individual heroes, and one of them had an incredibly compelling story arc during the event and we never even got to see how it was resolved. What a waste.

[Tokeull]

We've been over this in another thread. It's an interesting interpretation, but Rich has said in commentaries that Elan hasn't gotten his happy ending yet, and that ending will actually be happy.
Where and when did you see that? I would like read it.

[hungrycrow]

Where and when did you see that? I would like read it.

Elan's prophecy not being fulfilled is from the commentaries in War and XPs. Unfortunately I can't remember where the other quote came from, but it was something about how Rich wrote Elan's prophecy to reassure the audience that the story wouldn't get too dark.

[JonahFalcon]

Years ago, I mentioned a tragic villain-wins ending, but so poetic Elan can't help but love it.

"It's so... (sniff)... thematically perfect! And what a sequel hook!"

[Fyraltari]

I was a huge fan of the MCU until, after spending years of getting me invested in the Hulk's character development and internal struggles, they solved it all off-screen. I don't care about the Snap, I care about how it is affecting the individual heroes, and one of them had an incredibly compelling story arc during the event and we never even got to see how it was resolved. What a waste.

I haven't watched a single Hulk movie (or read a comic, or watched a cartoon or played a game or whatever) and even I thought that was bullcrap. Like who does that?

Kind of assumed they'd make a movie about Hulk set between Infinity War and Endgame to explain it, but looks like no.

[elros]

Elan loves stories, and I believe this comic will reveal that the Snarl has created multiple universes that will be the setting of countless stories. Some characters will leave the current world and go to the new one, but Elan will be happy because it means that drama will go on.
I also think Elan’s happy ending means he will stay with Haley, but that is pretty obvious!

[Peelee]

Elan loves stories, and I believe this comic will reveal that the Snarl has created multiple universes that will be the setting of countless stories.

Like these (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html)? Or like these (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html)?

[PontificatusRex]

But in continuing series when the big stakes keep happening and keep happening, it's harder to care, because it just becomes, as the sky pirates called it, the "apocalypse of the week".

One of the best commentaries on this phenomenon:



No matter how many times you save the world, it always manages to get back in jeopardy again. Sometimes I just want it to stay saved! You know, for a little bit? I feel like the maid; I just cleaned up this mess! Can we keep it clean for... for ten minutes!

[woweedd]

One of the best commentaries on this phenomenon:
Heh. The irony is that, in that movie, when the world DOES "stay saved", Bob is BORED OUT OF HIS MIND BY IT. Careful what you wish for, man.

[Precure]

:elan: "I, Elan the Bard, accept the responsibility of my heinous crime of destroying Dorukan's Gate, threatening spacetime reality, and murdering numerous people inside of Dorukan's Dungeon, for the sake of my obsession with the alleged rules of drama that controls our daily lives. I also confess the misrule of law committed by Lord Shojo and Roy Greenhilt to save my butt. I'm ready to accept my punishment. Also, Haley, you're a greedy, violent, selfish, b-word woman and, sorry, but I finally understand that I can't have any interest in such a repulsive person. I wish you good luck and best wishes regarding your true love: a room full with treasure chests. Also, Belkar is dead, and no one cares about bringing him back from the fire down below. END OF STORY!"

Now THAT would be a happy ending for Elan.

[Ruck]

A happy ending is one where Elan turns nasty and misogynistic toward Haley?

[Rrmcklin]

I've always found it interesting how people try and turn everything into a twist. Because I believe the actual word on that was that Elan's prophecy was to ensure that no matter how dark the story would get, it's still a comedy and you could still expect a happy ending. But instead you constantly get people trying to find ways it could technically be "happy" in the most depressing way possible.

And I echo what someone else said above, the "...for you at least" was supposed to indicate that even if overall the story was happening it wouldn't end so for all of them. That is distinct from say Elan will be an exception to get a happy ending. Like, given his personalty and even more so his character growth that just doesn't make sense.

[Werbaer]

Also, Haley, you're a greedy, violent, selfish, b-word woman [...]
I know that one: brave (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html)

[Precure]

A happy ending is one where Elan turns nasty and misogynistic toward Haley?

If saying "b-word" is misogynistic, then Haley must be the CEO of misogynism of this comic.

[Ruck]

If saying "b-word" is misogynistic, then Haley must be the CEO of misogynism of this comic.

The author has admitted she was as such and that she has actively tried to stop doing that, and hasn't for a long time. Besides, is that your excuse for writing a fantasy ideal ending that involves a man going on a cruel tirade against his girlfriend-- one which completely ignores the growth of their relationship and their growth individually as people in that time?

[RatElemental]

Maybe Elan puts on a helmet of opposite alignment and then the fact that all his friends die and the world gets destroyed makes him happy? Makes about as much sense as the last proposal.

[Precure]

The author has admitted she was as such and that she has actively tried to stop doing that, and hasn't for a long time.


If she's serious about that, good for her. She can review her previous life choices after her break up with Elan and try to be a better person. :smallsmile:


Besides, is that your excuse for writing a fantasy ideal ending that involves a man going on a cruel tirade against his girlfriend-- one which completely ignores the growth of their relationship and their growth individually as people in that time?

They're both were terrible people, IMHO, and that ending was written according to that. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Metastachydium]

They're both were terrible people, IMHO, and that ending was written according to that. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

???
For starters, Elan was borderline insufferably stupid in the early days, but the closest he ever came to terrible was his being kinda-sorta mean at times back in DCF.
Further, the Oracle is an oracle. I'm pretty sure his prophecies do account for stuff yet unknown to folks that receive the prophecy – such as, say, character growth.


Maybe Elan puts on a helmet of opposite alignment and then the fact that all his friends die and the world gets destroyed makes him happy?

OR maybe my crack theory is correct and Elan is indeed an agent of the Snarl, intent on destroying the WHOLE world!!!!

[Precure]

For starters, Elan was borderline insufferably stupid in the early days, but the closest he ever came to terrible was his being kinda-sorta mean at times back in DCF.

Destruction of Dorukan's Gate and Dungeon was more than mean.

[Metastachydium]

Destruction of Dorukan's Gate and Dungeon was more than mean.

Nope. That fell under insufferably stupid.

[Fyraltari]

Destruction of Dorukan's Gate and Dungeon was more than mean.

It was stupid and thoughtless, but it wasn't mean. Elan had no intention of hurting the people inside the dungeon, he just forgot about them.

[Ruck]

I have to wonder why anyone continues to read this story if they think the main characters are mean and cruel, and think it would be a good thing if they were mean and cruel to each other. I mean, I just don't get it.

[Precure]

I have to wonder why anyone continues to read this story if they think the main characters are mean and cruel, and think it would be a good thing if they were mean and cruel to each other. I mean, I just don't get it.

Just because I criticize them doesn't mean I don't like or care about them. That's why I want Haley to be a better person and Elan to accept responsibility for his crimes, compared to Belkar who I dislike and want dead sooner or later. Also I like most of the secondary characters, and Mr. Burlew is great at writing fantasy.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm sorry, but...
Wasn't there literally an entire subplot in W&X about Haley learning to move past the selfish thief mentality and open up to people, and literally the entirety of BRitF is about Elan learning to take responsibility for his actions and reconcile the value of storytelling with the consequences and non-formulaic nature of the real world?

[brian 333]

Elan is a simple guy, unless rule of funny requires subtlety or complexity in unexpected situations. So his Happy Ending must be simple, straightforward, and happy.

There really isn't room for melodrama or poetic justice; the story has to end in a way that leaves simple, straightforward Elan content and smiling. It must be, for lack of a better term, a fairytale ending, where the story villains are trounced, the story heroes are rewarded, and Elan gets to live happily ever after.

I, personally, cannot envision that outcome for Elan if Haley isn't part of it. Any other character could have an heroic death worthy of an epic and he could have his happy ending, but not Haley. Likewise she could not deceive or betray him.

Elan's happy ending must be, like Elan, simple, uncomplicated, and happy.

[Precure]

I'm sorry, but...
Wasn't there literally an entire subplot in W&X about Haley learning to move past the selfish thief mentality and open up to people, and literally the entirety of BRitF is about Elan learning to take responsibility for his actions and reconcile the value of storytelling with the consequences and non-formulaic nature of the real world?

Haley's subplot was about her trust issues and her inability to open herself to other people. It has nothing to do with her other personal failings.
Elan finally accepted, after facing his father, that he was wrong about caring more about story tropes instead of people, that's true, but he's yet to make any admission of guilt or apology for his past crimes.

[Mike Havran]

Elan finally accepted, after facing his father, that he was wrong about caring more about story tropes instead of people, that's true, but he's yet to make any admission of guilt or apology for his past crimes. I think that this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1230.html) is pretty much the only apology for Elan's ''crimes'' we are going to see.

What, exactly, would the crimes be, anyway?

[hungrycrow]

I think that this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1230.html) is pretty much the only apology for Elan's ''crimes'' we are going to see.

What, exactly, would the crimes be, anyway?

I imagine it would be blowing up Dorukan's Gate, and theoretically killing a bunch of goblins.

I'm not sure what horrible crimes Haley needs to atone for. Just being greedy?

[Mike Havran]

I imagine it would be blowing up Dorukan's Gate, and theoretically killing a bunch of goblins.

I'm not sure what horrible crimes Haley needs to atone for. Just being greedy?
If one argues that activating a self-destruct rune is a crime, he needs to prove either that:
- Dungeon of Dorukan was a part of a jurisdiction that considers it a crime
- Elan is a citizen of a jurisdiction that considers activating a self-destruct rune anywhere to be a crime.

Both of these claims are far from proven from the information we have. And at the sole trial regarding the event, Elan was found innocent on those charges (however farcical the trial was).

Haley is a self-proclaimed criminal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), and I imagine she committed plenty of thievery and burglary in Greysky City, who seems, at least nominally, to have laws against that, given they have a token (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) law-enforcement units.

[hungrycrow]

If one argues that activating a self-destruct rune is a crime, he needs to prove either that:
- Dungeon of Dorukan was a part of a jurisdiction that considers it a crime
- Elan is a citizen of a jurisdiction that considers activating a self-destruct rune anywhere to be a crime.

Both of these claims are far from proven from the information we have. And at the sole trial regarding the event, Elan was found innocent on those charges (however farcical the trial was).

Haley is a self-proclaimed criminal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), and I imagine she committed plenty of thievery and burglary in Greysky City, who seems, at least nominally, to have laws against that, given they have a token (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) law-enforcement units.

I was thinking crime in more of moral than formal sense. As far as I remember Haley has only stolen from other criminals.

The "crime" brought up with the self-destruct rune isn't the risk to reality, but the potential that goblin civilians were still in the dungeon when it went off. Personally I believe Elan just assumed that any goblins left in the dungeon managed to flee, and that in-story he's correct. I don't think Rich will ever suggest Elan inadvertently murdered teenagers.

[Precure]

{scrubbed}

[hroþila]

It's not impossible that it'll be brought up, like "Elan, you killed a bunch of innocent people when you blew up Dorukan's gate". But since that would be kinda redundant because Elan already learned his lesson about putting narrative convention over actual people, and V's Familicide shenanigans had similar unexpected consequences ("you did the thing without thinking and a bunch of innocents died and it's your fault"), and seeing as how it wasn't brought up during the trial or at any point since, either in the story or in the commentary, and in light of the tone of the comic at the time, and given that the Order found a very obvious emergency exit despite not being familiar with the place...

Yeah I think everybody got out.

[hamishspence]

seeing as how it wasn't brought up during the trial or at any point since, either in the story or in the commentary, and in light of the tone of the comic at the time, and given that the Order found a very obvious emergency exit despite not being familiar with the place...

Yeah I think everybody got out.

Might depend how you interpret the goblin spirit's testimony here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html

"saw the whole thing. Well, up to the point that I was killed along with the others".


The testimony is about "proof the Order destroyed the gate".


Did he witness the activation of the self-destruct, flee the wrong way, and die in the explosion?


Or did he just witness Elan activating the self-destruct, offscreen, while being chased by Belkar, right before Belkar killed him and his fellow goblins?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html

[hroþila]

I always took him to be the ghost of a goblin combatant that was killed in the throne room. I don't even think it's absolutely necessary in context that "the whole thing" includes Elan pressing the self-destruct button, because the testimonies seem to be roughly in chronological order - from Sangwaan identifying the Order as the adventurer party that was present in the Dungeon of Dorukan to the pressing of the button by Elan, then to the explosion, then to the Order falling on the flumphs. But yeah it's vague and open to interpretation.

[Mike Havran]

I was thinking crime in more of moral than formal sense. As far as I remember Haley has only stolen from other criminals.

The "crime" brought up with the self-destruct rune isn't the risk to reality, but the potential that goblin civilians were still in the dungeon when it went off. Personally I believe Elan just assumed that any goblins left in the dungeon managed to flee, and that in-story he's correct. I don't think Rich will ever suggest Elan inadvertently murdered teenagers.My take on this is that Elan did not assume anything beyond ''Hey, what a cool rune, lol it says Do not touch! so Letz press it:smallsmile:''
That I do not consider to be a crime in moral sense, and as I mentioned above, the lawful aspects of making it a crime are hazy at best.

It is also possible that Elan applied his older, more Tarquin-like view of narrative where an easy-going lovable fool, no matter what he bumbingly does, can never kill innocent goblin kids simply by virtue of not being in the story where this kind of twist happens. But I consider this to be way too sophisticated process for the early part of the OotS.

[Fyraltari]

I was thinking crime in more of moral than formal sense. As far as I remember Haley has only stolen from other criminals.

Do you count Grubwiggler as a criminal?

[Metastachydium]

Do you count Grubwiggler as a criminal?

It's hard to tell with Greysky City being what it is whether he's a criminal or not, but disposing of murder victims and the like (and even incentivizing people to get hold of dead bodies) would make him be considered something like an accessory in any sane judicial system operating on the basis of sane laws. (I mean, he's basically Robert-Knox-but-worse.)

[hungrycrow]

Do you count Grubwiggler as a criminal?

He ran a business buying the corpses of murder victims, was willing to buy a living halfling, and was going to kill Celia over a debt she never explicitly agreed to. So yeah. I don't know if he actually broke Greysky City law, but it's enough to not bother me that Haley would rob him.

[JonahFalcon]

"For you at least" can just be the Oracle being a {scrubbed}. After all, that could mean happy ending for everyone, but not explicitly stating there will be.

Also, don't want to hamstring the story if Rich feels certain things would make for a better story.

[brian 333]

My personal read of The Oracle's specific wording is that there are some characters for whom the ending will not be happy, but that Elan, and presumably the audience, will find the ending to be a happy one.

Admittedly, there is no evidence that the audience will share Elan's happiness, and for some, (Belkar fans, for example,) the ending may well prove an unhappy one. This is simply my reading of the intent behind the writing.

Still going with Elan and Haley stepping into a 3d world and beginning a new adventure. Have not yet seen a better, more happier ending suggested!

[Kish]

I imagine it would be blowing up Dorukan's Gate, and theoretically killing a bunch of goblins.

I'm not sure what horrible crimes Haley needs to atone for. Just being greedy?
Looking at the word "violent," I would guess Precure means Haley's brutal and shocking murder of poor, defenseless Crystal.

(For the benefit of anyone who wasn't here for the last five rounds of the Crystal "murder" debate, my characterizations there are sarcastic, for me.) I would venture that the end of Crystal's story holds the answer to whether Rich thinks Haley needs to atone for that violence.

As for Elan blowing up the dungeon, aside from what hamishspence brought up (it was never brought up at the trial, as long as you ignore the panel where it explicitly was...), the people in the dungeon could be divided into five groups:

Xykon, Redcloak, and the creature in the darkness. They got out. And conspicuously had no goblins except Redcloak with them afterward.

The Order. They got out.

The goblin former-combatants in the Throne Room. They got chased down by Belkar and decapitated while he shouted at them to "run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!" Special shoutout to Roy for how effective his wardening Belkar's prison is.

The goblin teenager with the massive internal injuries who couldn't walk, never mind run. Yeah. (Also, note this and the previous one for "tone.")

All the denizens of the dungeon, multiple levels of them, who weren't in the throne room, didn't know the self-destruct mechanism existed or had been activated, and had no reason to go anywhere. Why, other than wishful thinking, would anyone finish this with "they got out"?

[brian 333]

Looking at the word "violent," I would guess Precure means Haley's brutal and shocking murder of poor, defenseless Crystal.

(For the benefit of anyone who wasn't here for the last five rounds of the Crystal "murder" debate, my characterizations there are sarcastic, for me.) I would venture that the end of Crystal's story holds the answer to whether Rich thinks Haley needs to atone for that violence.

As for Elan blowing up the dungeon, aside from what hamishspence brought up (it was never brought up at the trial, as long as you ignore the panel were it explicitly was...), the people in the dungeon could be divided into five groups:

Xykon, Redcloak, and the creature in the darkness. They got out.

The Order. They got out.

The goblin former-combatants in the Throne Room. They got chased down by Belkar and decapitated while he shouted at them to "run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!" Special shoutout to Roy for how effective his wardening Belkar's prison is.

The goblin teenager with the massive internal injuries who couldn't walk, never mind run. Yeah.

All the denizens of the dungeon, multiple levels of them, who weren't in the throne room, didn't know the self-destruct mechanism existed or had been activated, and had no reason to go anywhere. Why, other than wishful thinking, would anyone finish this with "they got out"?

The monsters that guarded the three sigils were either dead or had no reason to stick around. (Celia's crew.)

The monsters that were never converted to 3rd edition were scattering long before the Throne Room scene.

I think it's safe to say neither group was especially motivated to stick around.

Thal leaves the goblins.

And the copyrighted creature from strip 33.

[Fyraltari]

The monsters that guarded the three sigils were either dead or had no reason to stick around. (Celia's crew.)

The monsters that were never converted to 3rd edition were scattering long before the Throne Room scene.

I think it's safe to say neither group was especially motivated to stick around.

Thal leaves the goblins.

And the copyrighted creature from strip 33.

What about the monsters in the rest of dungeon? The Order skipped two whole levels (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html), so all the people in those where still around during the throne room battle? Or all these folks? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)

I suppose it's possible Dorukan's self-destruct mecanisms included an alarm in the other rooms and conveniently placed emergency exits. But those were never mentioned in-comic.

[Metastachydium]

The monsters that were never converted to 3rd edition were scattering long before the Throne Room scene.

From an obscure vault in a labirynthine dungeon, mind you. They didn't know about the employee-only exits either, since they weren't employees. Now, we do know that there were some who got away (the flumphs), but the fate of the rest remains unknown.


Thal leaves the goblins.

And the copyrighted creature from strip 33.

You sure? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)

[hroþila]

The flumphs "conveniently" got out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Fyraltari]

Oh, I didn't mean any sarcasm when I wrote that. I can totally see Dorukan placing emergency exits for his employees.
As far as I'm concerned Elan was careless and thoughtless, but he's already resolved not to hurt people over stories, so...

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, I didn't mean any sarcasm when I wrote that. I can totally see Dorukan placing emergency exits for his employees.
As far as I'm concerned Elan was careless and thoughtless, but he's already resolved not to hurt people over stories, so...

It's certainly possible, but there does not appear to have been any such warning in the throne room itself (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html). If I were Dorukan I'd just as soon not die because someone tapped the rune while I was taking a nap, there'd have been a LOUD alarm throughout the entire dungeon if I were worried about evacuation procedures.

Nor do we see any sign of other creatures fleeing. Nor does Red Cloak gather any goblin survivors or seem to expect any (of course it is RC, so complete callus disregard for the actual welfare of any and all of the goblins he claims to be helping is totally in character).

On the other hand, Elan hit the rune, and he did so because it's a trope that the bad-guy's lair explodes when the bad guy dies, and the world of tOotS works by tropes and part of that trope is that we aren't supposed to worry about any innocents being caught in the blast because they all get out. So I can accept everyone surviving.

[dancrilis]

Nor does Red Cloak gather any goblin survivors or seem to expect any (of course it is RC, so complete callus disregard for the actual welfare of any and all of the goblins he claims to be helping is totally in character).


Redcloak seems to think that The Order of the Stick killed them all (panel 2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html)).

[Kish]

The flumphs "conveniently" got out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean, if you really want to treat "someone got out, so everyone got out" as logic, you don't need to look further than the Order themselves. Considering the flumphs are part of a running gag which consists of "whenever people fall they land on them whether it makes any sense for the flumphs to be where that person is falling or not," y'could also say that all the other denizens of the dungeon must be in therapy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html).

[Metastachydium]

(of course it is RC, so complete callus disregard for the actual welfare of any and all of the goblins he claims to be helping is totally in character)

Okay, dude, that's unfair (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) and thoroughly uncalled for (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html). And two more things:
1. what dancrilis said;
2. if he had so much as suspected that anyone in the Order is dumb enough to hit that button, that would sound like a point. Too bad we have no indication whatsoever that this was the case so far as I remember.


On the other hand, Elan hit the rune, and he did so because it's a trope that the bad-guy's lair explodes when the bad guy dies, and the world of tOotS works by tropes and part of that trope is that we aren't supposed to worry about any innocents being caught in the blast because they all get out. So I can accept everyone surviving.

[OBLIGATORY STAR WARS REFERENCE]Yeah, Death Star 2. Everyone totally escaped.[/OBLIGATORY STAR WARS REFERENCE]

[littlebum2002]

[OBLIGATORY STAR WARS REFERENCE]Yeah, Death Star 2. Everyone totally escaped.[/OBLIGATORY STAR WARS REFERENCE]

What movie/tv show was it when they discussed whether the people building the death star 2 were complicit in it or just doing their jobs?

[Peelee]

What movie/tv show was it when they discussed whether the people building the death star 2 were complicit in it or just doing their jobs?

Clerks. And that argument completely avoided that the Empire was a totalitarian regime, which significantly shifts the equation.

Kevin Smith has the Star Wars chops to know that and was likely just writing for entertainment.

[Fyraltari]

[OBLIGATORY STAR WARS REFERENCE]Yeah, Death Star 2. Everyone totally escaped.[/OBLIGATORY STAR WARS REFERENCE]

Is this about the "Endor Holocaust" theory?

[Metastachydium]

Is this about the "Endor Holocaust" theory?

[All grumpy.] That shouldn't be a mere "theory". That said, it's really about


the people building the death star

[Fyraltari]

[All grumpy.] That shouldn't be a mere "theory". That said, it's really about

It seems unlikely that the Empire would have kept any unwilling workers on the station when preparing for battle. That'd be asking for sabotage.

[Metastachydium]

It seems unlikely that the Empire would have kept any unwilling workers on the station when preparing for battle. That'd be asking for sabotage.

Of what sort, exactly? The shield generator was inaccessible from up there and the station was swarming with military personnel likely guarding the operational weapon systems quite vigilantly. Also, there's various flavours to "unwilling". "Suicidally and militantly defiant" is but one of them.

[Kish]

It seems unlikely that the Empire would have kept any unwilling workers on the station when preparing for battle. That'd be asking for sabotage.
Yeah. That'd be as stupid as blowing up someone's homeworld after she gives you the information you were asking for, but before you confirm that that information is accurate. Or slaughtering your own general staff whenever one of them annoys you.

[Peelee]

Yeah. That'd be as stupid as blowing up someone's homeworld after she gives you the information you were asking for, but before you confirm that that information is accurate. Or slaughtering your own general staff whenever one of them annoys you.

Huh. I'm starting to think the Empire was not run particularly well, despite existing as a state for less time than I've been alive.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah. That'd be as stupid as blowing up someone's homeworld after she gives you the information you were asking for, but before you confirm that that information is accurate. Or slaughtering your own general staff whenever one of them annoys you.

Okay, but they were planning on blowing up Alderaan anyway, Tarkin just decided to milk it for some intel while he was at it. He he pointedly not let Vader kill Motti.

[hungrycrow]

Everyone had plenty of time to escape the second Death Star. Luke had time to drag a dying Vader from the throne room to the hanger and have a heartwarming death scene before he escaped.

[Doug Lampert]

Okay, dude, that's unfair (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) and thoroughly uncalled for (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html). And two more things:
1. what dancrilis said;
2. if he had so much as suspected that anyone in the Order is dumb enough to hit that button, that would sound like a point. Too bad we have no indication whatsoever that this was the case so far as I remember.

Let's see, your first link, RC tells some of his minions not to bother X when X is killing people, naturally he does nothing about their working conditions. Link two, he has a hearty villain laugh over discovering that X has been killing goblins out of pure boredom and does nothing about it, even when shortly after that X is completely helpless in RC's hands.

Dancrilis says he had no way to know there were any survivors, which would be true IF he did not have any divination spells (whoops, cleric) and IF he did not KNOW there were still live goblins behind him when he bugged out. He didn't know, because he did not care, just as he didn't care about X killing goblins. In fact, when X was killing goblins, RC joined in and killed his own spoiler to preserve X so that X could keep killing goblins, what a guy.

Note that your first link above, when he tells some goblins that now is not the time to complain about their working conditions, is the BEST evidence you can offer in all of the books an other material that RC actually cares about his fellow goblins, what a guy.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think you really care about them! You just feel bad about not caring!

Enough said.

[Metastachydium]

Okay, but they were planning on blowing up Alderaan anyway, Tarkin just decided to milk it for some intel while he was at it. He he pointedly not let Vader kill Motti.

Too bad he conveniently wasn't around (or, for that matter, alive) to keep Vader and co. in check at the battle of Endor, then.


Everyone had plenty of time to escape the second Death Star. Luke had time to drag a dying Vader from the throne room to the hanger and have a heartwarming death scene before he escaped.

I'm pretty sure the death scene came before the reactor exploded, though.


Let's see, your first link, RC tells some of his minions not to bother X when X is killing people,

He's visibly disturbed by Xykon's HR strategy and he does what he can to protect his fellow goblins from the same. How EVIL and uncaring of him!


naturally he does nothing about their working conditions.

And what should he do, exactly? He doesn't control Team Evil's funds.


Link two, he has a hearty villain laugh over discovering that X has been killing goblins out of pure boredom

He makes it plain and clear that he doesn't find the idea of killing goblins for some half-assed reason amusing. In view of that, I'd venture a guess that the evil laughter's not in response to X. killing goblins for no reason, but rather (what a shock!) to the statement that comes right before the laughter (soon the Order will be crushed, the Gate unsealed and the Plan back on track).


and does nothing about it, even when shortly after that X is completely helpless in RC's hands.

That is correct and also a thoroughly overdiscussed subject. Yes, that's the first and arguably only chance he gets in all the story, prequels included, to actually get rid of Xykon. But. This is not so long after a certain event that shall not be named here. He's not in a very good position to think clearly.


Dancrilis says he had no way to know there were any survivors, which would be true IF he did not have any divination spells (whoops, cleric) and IF he did not KNOW there were still live goblins behind him when he bugged out. He didn't know, because he did not care, just as he didn't care about X killing goblins.

That's a conjecture which discounts the fact that before that, there are two short time skips where we don't see what Redcloak is or isn't doing. It's hardly the solid proof you seem to think it is.


In fact, when X was killing goblins, RC joined in and killed his own spoiler to preserve X so that X could keep killing goblins, what a guy.

That's an ugly, ugly thing indeed, but more than slightly less simple than you present it as. For starters, claiming that Redcloak [SPOILER SPOILER] so that Xykon can keep killing goblins is simply equine faeces.


Note that your first link above, when he tells some goblins that now is not the time to complain about their working conditions, is the BEST evidence you can offer in all of the books an other material that RC actually cares about his fellow goblins, what a guy.

If that strikes you as "the best evidence" anyone can offer to that effect, you might want to reread the assault on Lirian's Glade and the latter half of the battle for Azure City.

[Kish]

That is correct and also a thoroughly overdiscussed subject. Yes, that's the first and arguably only chance he gets in all the story, prequels included, to actually get rid of Xykon. But. This is not so long after a certain event that shall not be named here. He's not in a very good position to think clearly.

1) If you don't want to discuss it maybe...don't? Don't act like other people are in the wrong for observing that Redcloak's concern for "the goblin people" goes with brutal disregard for every single goblin he ever actually interacts with?
2) "A certain event that shall not be named here"--if you want that to be a point, you do in fact need to name it here. If you mean HIM MURDERING HIS LITTLE BROTHER, well, that literally can't be any more convenient for Redcloak, can it? Him murdering his little brother is not only not evidence against him, it obviates every future piece of evidence against him. If you mean the gate blowing up, um...no? "He just had a setback, he's not responsible for anything" lacks the grotesquerie of his brother's murder absolving him of continued actions in the same pattern, but it's still downright goofy. Redcloak's choices are consistently those of someone who doesn't give a flying row of asterisks about any goblin and hasn't for quite a while.

[Fyraltari]

About what sabotage the workers could do, I obviously can't tell exactly, but they'd be a liability in any case. At the very least they could try to flee/take advantage of the battle to try to overrun the hangars and steal ships to fly away, which would at minimum incoveniance the Imperials.


Too bad he conveniently wasn't around (or, for that matter, alive) to keep Vader and co. in check at the battle of Endor, then.
Vader only kills one person in the entirety of Return of the Jedi and that's Sidious.




pretty sure the death scene came before the reactor exploded, though.
Nope. You can see Imperials scrambling all over the background (this also explains why nobody is trying to stop Luke who's dragging Vader semi-conscious body on the ground). In fact, Luke's shuttle barely escaped the explosion.

[hungrycrow]

It'd be pretty easy to sabotage equipment without stormtroopers noticing, how are they going to tell if a mechanic is fixing something or breaking it.

Also, the second Death Star was part of a critical strategic ambush. It was important that no one on the crew was rebel spy who could warn the Alliance ahead of time. I think, I'm not super sure how Star Wars communication and spycraft work.

[Metastachydium]

1) If you don't want to discuss it maybe...don't?

I'm just a little tired of everyone going over the same routine every time Redcloak's motivations come up is all. Don't get worked up about it.


Don't act like other people are in the wrong for observing that Redcloak's concern for "the goblin people" goes with brutal disregard for every single goblin he ever actually interacts with?

(…)

Redcloak's choices are consistently those of someone who doesn't give a flying row of asterisks about any goblin and hasn't for quite a while.

I reserve the right not to agree with sweeping generalizations I deem unsupported by the text. I don't "act like other people are in the wrong", I do actually think they are being unfair.

With that out of the way, let's go all Popperian on this! Now, if "Redcloak's concern for »the goblin people« goes with brutal disregard for every single goblin he ever actually interacts with" and he "doesn't give a flying row of asterisks about any goblin", it logically follows that there can't be examples of him ever caring about a single goblin. If there's so much as a single instance of him doing so, those propositions prefaced with universal quantification will neccessarily collapse. Let's see!


1. during the assault on Lirian's Glade, Redcloak angrily admonishes Xykon for friendly fire, pointing out that he promised the families of those goblins that he'll take them back home and he meant it;
2. he picks up an actual weapon and threatens to destroy the phylactery when X. throatlifts Right-Eye (a goblin);
3. he bonds with his nephews and niece and expresses a wish to settle down with them and live a peaceful life;
4. he helps Right-Eye beat back and kill the adventurers wreaking havoc in the goblin camp;
5. he admonishes Right-Eye for his Regeneration plan, pointing out that it will simply make X. kill more (rather than less) goblins (this one might be an excuse);

6. the first DCF strip I linked;
7. right before the second DCF strip I linked, he expresses horror over seeing X. dragging in a goblin he knew;
8. the second DCF strip I linked;
9. his epiphany at the battle of Azure City:
9.a. his rushing to try and heal the soldier who pushed him out of the way;
9.b. his change of strategy, making a swift concentrated push to minimize goblin casualties;
9.c. his dealing with the Azurite clerics (explicitly so as to preserve goblinoid lives);
9.d. his shooing Jirix out of the room when he proves incapable of "turning" the deathless and
9.e. ordering him to keep the troops from entering the throne room;
9.f. his raising Jirix for the first time;
10. his indignation at Tsukiko animating the fallen prison guards as ghouls (might be about authority);
11. FREAKIN' STALLING THE PLAN ITSELF FOR MONTHS TO CONSOLIDATE A GOBLIN POLITY THAT CAN FEED AND DEFEND ITSELF, while going so far as to overcome his speciesism and engage in negotiations with human states.

Redcloak is a horrible, Evil person whose motives are nowhere near as pure as he'd like others to believe (he is only half-succesful in deceiving himself), but boldly stating that he doesn't care and never cared at all doesn't stand actual scrutiny.


2) "A certain event that shall not be named here"--if you want that to be a point, you do in fact need to name it here.

Sorry for being obscure. I thought the wording clearly implied it's a certain famous SPOILER. Apparently, it wasn't. Anyhow,


HIM MURDERING HIS LITTLE BROTHER, well, that literally can't be any more convenient for Redcloak, can it? Him murdering his little brother is not only not evidence against him, it obviates every future piece of evidence against him.

you misunderstand my point. What I mean is, DCF happens shortly after Right-Eye's death at Redcloak's hands, an event he has, let's say, more than slightly ambiguous feelings about to this day. It is often argued that the fresh shock keeping Redcloak from thinking clearly might explain why he was more subservient to X. in the early books, a theory that I subscribe to. I never said it proactively excuses him of abusing the hobgoblins' loyalty in [I]No Cure and early WaXP.


About what sabotage the workers could do, I obviously can't tell exactly, but they'd be a liability in any case. At the very least they could try to flee/take advantage of the battle to try to overrun the hangars and steal ships to fly away, which would at minimum incoveniance the Imperials.

True, but I'm fairly certain the Imperial military is more than capable of dealing with unarmed civilians if need be and the Imperials were massively overconfident about their ability to prevail, so the chaos that came after the shield going down was likely quite the unexpected turn of events.


Vader only kills one person in the entirety of Return of the Jedi and that's Sidious.

Fair, but that doesn't make him any better at basic military tactics and strategy.


Nope. You can see Imperials scrambling all over the background (this also explains why nobody is trying to stop Luke who's dragging Vader semi-conscious body on the ground). In fact, Luke's shuttle barely escaped the explosion.

I'm kind of surprised. I vaguely remember the ships conducting the assault barely escaping the Star which would have implied a faster and bigger explosion, but I haven't seen the scene in question in a while, so I'll just have to take your word for it.

[littlebum2002]

It seems unlikely that the Empire would have kept any unwilling workers on the station when preparing for battle. That'd be asking for sabotage.

It had, what? A million workers? It would take weeks, at least, to evacuate that many people. And where would they go? I was under the impression that they just lived there. I can't see any other way to logistically implement that.





I'm kind of surprised. I vaguely remember the ships conducting the assault barely escaping the Star which would have implied a faster and bigger explosion, but I haven't seen the scene in question in a while, so I'll just have to take your word for it.

Your memory is correct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da79l0tXtM0

[Fyraltari]

True, but I'm fairly certain the Imperial military is more than capable of dealing with unarmed civilians if need be and the Imperials were massively overconfident about their ability to prevail, so the chaos that came after the shield going down was likely quite the unexpected turn of events.
True about Imperial overconfidence. At the end of the day, I don't think there's any way to actually tell whether there were any non-military personnel onboard, and if there were civilians, how voluntary their presence was.




Fair, but that doesn't make him any better at basic military tactics and strategy.
Vader is a very competent commander. He realized the danger the X-Wings posed to the Death Star I and it was his decision to send in fighters and for him to lead that caused most rebel casualties in this battle.
Likewise, his plan at the battle of Hoth would have worked had Admiral Ozzel not disobeyed a direct order.


I'm kind of surprised. I vaguely remember the ships conducting the assault barely escaping the Star which would have implied a faster and bigger explosion, but I haven't seen the scene in question in a while, so I'll just have to take your word for it.
Okay so having checked, Vader does die before Lando and Wedge destroy the reactor, but the Imperials were already evacuating at that point. Makes sense, the shields are down and ennemy ships are inside the stricture.

It had, what? A million workers? It would take weeks, at least, to evacuate that many people.
Source?

And where would they go? I was under the impression that they just lived there. I can't see any other way to logistically implement that.
Away. As Rincewind said, when it comes to running away, "where to" is secondary to "where from".

[Peelee]

Vader is a very competent commander. He realized the danger the X-Wings posed to the Death Star I and it was his decision to send in fighters and for him to lead that caused most rebel casualties in this battle.
Did he realize a danger? Or did he just realize that the fighters were too agile for the turbolasers? Or did he just want to shoot down other fighters himself?

Likewise, his plan at the battle of Hoth would have worked had Admiral Ozzel not disobeyed a direct order.
Did Ozzel, though? He felt surprise was better, and Vader thought it was foolish, but I don't recall anything about a direct order.

[Kish]

With that out of the way, let's go all Popperian on this! Now, if "Redcloak's concern for »the goblin people« goes with brutal disregard for every single goblin he ever actually interacts with" and he "doesn't give a flying row of asterisks about any goblin", it logically follows that there can't be examples of him ever caring about a single goblin.

Let me stop you there for a second: Redcloak talks a good game, good enough to convince himself and, apparently, good enough to convince you. That said, "I'm so sorry this was necessary" as he kills someone or leaves them dead isn't an example of him caring about the person he's speaking to; it's an example of him enjoying the sound of his own voice.

With that stipulation, let's go.



1. during the assault on Lirian's Glade, Redcloak angrily admonishes Xykon for friendly fire, pointing out that he promised the families of those goblins that he'll take them back home and he meant it;

Xykon doesn't change his approach and makes it clear to anyone with half a brain that he will not. And then his brother suggests that they should dispense with Xykon when they can and he refuses. Could they have found another way out of Lirian's prison? Unknowable because Redcloak declined the entire idea. Empty yammer count: 1. Actual indications of genuine concern count: 0.


2. he picks up an actual weapon and threatens to destroy the phylactery when X. throatlifts Right-Eye (a goblin);

Oh, lookie that, he can go along with a plan they discussed!

Though actually, let me pause there. Redcloak didn't fully exist until the end of Start of Darkness. Whatever the name of the goblin cleric who would one day be Redcloak, he hadn't been fully corrupted, yet. Though...


5. he admonishes Right-Eye for his Regeneration plan, pointing out that it will simply make X. kill more (rather than less) goblins (this one might be an excuse);
...yes, "he argues that they have to keep Xykon, so he cares about goblins" is a remarkable display of audacity here. Where are the goblins he was concerned about Xykon killing, now? Oh right--ALL DEAD. So how good was his "let's keep following Xykon and he'll surely stop killing us for fun eventually" plan, assuming it was on any level about goblins and not about Redcloak not wanting to admit he was wrong? NEEDED WORK.


6. the first DCF strip I linked;
7. right before the second DCF strip I linked, he expresses horror over seeing X. dragging in a goblin he knew;
8. the second DCF strip I linked;

Yammer count: 2, 3, 4. Since none of those went with actually doing anything against Xykon, and he very shortly had Xykon at his mercy and didn't destroy him (see below), actual concern for goblins count: still 0.

And at Azure City and Gobbotopia, I notice a convenient lack of mentioning of:

Got his own agent killed. Did not resurrect him. So does he care about goblins? At absolutely best, less than he cares about Xykon never learning that there was a hobgoblin infiltrator in the resistance; since he did not attempt to hide from Xykon that he'd gotten back the phylactery it honestly seems a lot more like "use raise dead on a random spy? nah, there's no one here to see me being performative right now."
Said (with some "I care so much about goblins" whining as per usual) that he would have killed the crafter Tsukiko killed if she had not, and disintegrated the body.
Saved the lives and/or dignity of exactly 0 of the goblins Tsukiko and Xykon felt like killing; with the provable ability to kill Tsukiko (source: HE DID, EASILY), finally did kill Tsukiko when she threatened the Plan, nothing to do with her recreationally killing and animating goblins. Even when he did, if you're putting weight on what Redcloak said to exceed what he did, it was "humiliating attempts to undermine my authority," not "your murders of my people, every one of which I have made a memorial to..."
Only raised Jirix the second time because Xykon ordered him to, treating "he's dead" as equivalent to "he's gone" (and sounding so broken up about it, too!) before that.


Sorry for being obscure. I thought the wording clearly implied it's a certain famous SPOILER. Apparently, it wasn't. Anyhow,

It did, I was just boggled by the utter nerve of pretending that is somehow a point on Redcloak's favor. And conveniently, it means, to you, both that his actions don't matter and that his words matter massively: protecting Xykon has nothing to do with disregard for Xykon's victims, but saying "I know that guy, sir" before getting right back to obeying Xykon without hesitation? That says something about Redcloak's true heart, it does!

I'll be disengaging there. Feel free to have the last word; unlike Redcloak when Durkon pointed out something similar I'm reasonably sure it won't be "Implosion."

[Metastachydium]

At the end of the day, I don't think there's any way to actually tell whether there were any non-military personnel onboard, and if there were civilians, how voluntary their presence was.

Agreed. (Not that this is not a common and goodish reason not to blow up a facility.)


Vader is a very competent commander. He realized the danger the X-Wings posed to the Death Star I and it was his decision to send in fighters and for him to lead that caused most rebel casualties in this battle.

That's about Yavin, right? I'm with Peelee on that.


Okay so having checked, Vader does die before Lando and Wedge destroy the reactor, but the Imperials were already evacuating at that point. Makes sense, the shields are down and ennemy ships are inside the stricture.

Littlebum reminded me that there's this thing called youtube, so I checked the scene. Is it spelled out somewhere that everyone's evacuating? The patterns of movement shown do not seem consistent with that (there are people running in both directions on the same corridor, for instance).

EDIT:


Let me stop you there for a second: Redcloak talks a good game, good enough to convince himself and, apparently, good enough to convince you. That said, "I'm so sorry this was necessary" as he kills someone or leaves them dead isn't an example of him caring about the person he's speaking to; it's an example of him enjoying the sound of his own voice.

With that stipulation, let's go.

Xykon doesn't change his approach and makes it clear to anyone with half a brain that he will not. And then his brother suggests that they should dispense with Xykon when they can and he refuses. Could they have found another way out of Lirian's prison? Unknowable because Redcloak declined the entire idea. Empty yammer count: 1. Actual indications of genuine concern count: 0.

Oh, lookie that, he can go along with a plan they discussed!

Though actually, let me pause there. Redcloak didn't fully exist until the end of Start of Darkness. Whatever the name of the goblin cleric who would one day be Redcloak, he hadn't been fully corrupted, yet. Though...

...yes, "he argues that they have to keep Xykon, so he cares about goblins" is a remarkable display of audacity here. Where are the goblins he was concerned about Xykon killing, now? Oh right--ALL DEAD. So how good was his "let's keep following Xykon and he'll surely stop killing us for fun eventually" plan, assuming it was on any level about goblins and not about Redcloak not wanting to admit he was wrong? NEEDED WORK.
Yammer count: 2, 3, 4. Since none of those went with actually doing anything against Xykon, and he very shortly had Xykon at his mercy and didn't destroy him (see below), actual concern for goblins count: still 0.

And at Azure City and Gobbotopia, I notice a convenient lack of mentioning of:

Got his own agent killed. Did not resurrect him. So does he care about goblins? At absolutely best, less than he cares about Xykon never learning that there was a hobgoblin infiltrator in the resistance; since he did not attempt to hide from Xykon that he'd gotten back the phylactery it honestly seems a lot more like "use raise dead on a random spy? nah, there's no one here to see me being performative right now."
Said (with some "I care so much about goblins" whining as per usual) that he would have killed the crafter Tsukiko killed if she had not, and disintegrated the body.
Saved the lives and/or dignity of exactly 0 of the goblins Tsukiko and Xykon felt like killing; with the provable ability to kill Tsukiko (source: HE DID, EASILY), finally did kill Tsukiko when she threatened the Plan, nothing to do with her recreationally killing and animating goblins. Even when he did, if you're putting weight on what Redcloak said to exceed what he did, it was "humiliating attempts to undermine my authority," not "your murders of my people, every one of which I have made a memorial to..."
Only raised Jirix the second time because Xykon ordered him to, treating "he's dead" as equivalent to "he's gone" (and sounding so broken up about it, too!) before that.

It did, I was just boggled by the utter nerve of pretending that is somehow a point on Redcloak's favor. And conveniently, it means, to you, both that his actions don't matter and that his words matter massively: protecting Xykon has nothing to do with disregard for Xykon's victims, but saying "I know that guy, sir" before getting right back to obeying Xykon without hesitation? That says something about Redcloak's true heart, it does!

I'll be disengaging there. Feel free to have the last word; unlike Redcloak when Durkon pointed out something similar I'm reasonably sure it won't be "Implosion."

I will, if you don't mind, and no, it won't be "DIE!!!!!!". I'll content myself with pointing out that individual examples of Redcloak not getting himself and all other goblins present killed via jumping at Xykon's throat while achieving literally nothing in DCF means little if anything in itself;

that damning as they are (and though indicating that "Redcloak is a horrible, Evil person whose motives are nowhere near as pure as he'd like others to believe (he is only half-succesful in deceiving himself) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25426475&postcount=85)"), singular acts of distasteful pragmatism do not prove that Redcloak doesn't and didn't care about any goblin ever as you pretty much explicitly claimed (it is, again, simple, classical logic: they only prove that Redcloak doesn't care about every single individual goblin life);

that the fact itself you casually glossed over half my arguments, chiefly the epiphany (no. 9) and its ramifications (examples of Redcloak acting in the interest of his fellow goblins while risking life and limb and going so far as to stall the Plan itself for literal months) is in itself telling;

and lastly, that I deeply resent both your tone and your implications (that I'm too dumb to realize Redcloak is all talk (never mind that you could not refute a number of key arguments to the contrary) and that I have an "utter nerve" for bringing up something you generously misrepresented as a strawman argument I never made).

[littlebum2002]

I was reading a few random strips this morning and came upon this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html)which clearly implies that a lot of creatures/goblins were killed in the explosion.

[hamishspence]

I was reading a few random strips this morning and came upon this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html)which clearly implies that a lot of creatures/goblins were killed in the explosion.

That's already been brought up:

Might depend how you interpret the goblin spirit's testimony here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html

"saw the whole thing. Well, up to the point that I was killed along with the others".


The testimony is about "proof the Order destroyed the gate".


Did he witness the activation of the self-destruct, flee the wrong way, and die in the explosion?


Or did he just witness Elan activating the self-destruct, offscreen, while being chased by Belkar, right before Belkar killed him and his fellow goblins?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html


I always took him to be the ghost of a goblin combatant that was killed in the throne room. I don't even think it's absolutely necessary in context that "the whole thing" includes Elan pressing the self-destruct button, because the testimonies seem to be roughly in chronological order - from Sangwaan identifying the Order as the adventurer party that was present in the Dungeon of Dorukan to the pressing of the button by Elan, then to the explosion, then to the Order falling on the flumphs. But yeah it's vague and open to interpretation.

[dancrilis]

Dancrilis says he had no way to know there were any survivors

I said what?

[brian 333]

So, the gist of this is that for New And Improved Elan to have a happy ending, he must atone for his reckless past and callous disregard for those he wronged.

The list so far:
1) The story itself must conclude with Xykon vanquished.
2) Haley must survive.
3) Whether Elan dies or not, his past must be acknowleged and atonement for his wrongs must be made.
3a) If Elan dies it must be in accomplishing at least one of the goals above, preferably all of them.

Have I missed any?

My personal thought is that #3 has already been/is being accomplished, as of when he wrote his father out of the story and dedicated himself to saving the world. Recognition of his past was obvious in his final speech bubbles to Tarquin, and his quest to save the world is his still ongoing atonement.

He has changed in important ways:
No longer innocent.
No longer whimsical.
No longer careless.
But the core character traits, loving, forgiving, honest, optimistic, and fun-loving, remain untarnished. His youthful delusions have been shattered and he is not afraid of the reality he is facing. He is becoming responsible, both personally and professionally. He has become an adult.

[woweedd]

Agreed. (Not that this is not a common and goodish reason not to blow up a facility.)



That's about Yavin, right? I'm with Peelee on that.



Littlebum reminded me that there's this thing called youtube, so I checked the scene. Is it spelled out somewhere that everyone's evacuating? The patterns of movement shown do not seem consistent with that (there are people running in both directions on the same corridor, for instance).

EDIT:



I will, if you don't mind, and no, it won't be "DIE!!!!!!". I'll content myself with pointing out that individual examples of Redcloak not getting himself and all other goblins present killed via jumping at Xykon's throat while achieving literally nothing in DCF means little if anything in itself;

that damning as they are (and though indicating that "Redcloak is a horrible, Evil person whose motives are nowhere near as pure as he'd like others to believe (he is only half-succesful in deceiving himself) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25426475&postcount=85)"), singular acts of distasteful pragmatism do not prove that Redcloak doesn't and didn't care about any goblin ever as you pretty much explicitly claimed (it is, again, simple, classical logic: they only prove that Redcloak doesn't care about every single individual goblin life);

that the fact itself you casually glossed over half my arguments, chiefly the epiphany (no. 9) and its ramifications (examples of Redcloak acting in the interest of his fellow goblins while risking life and limb and going so far as to stall the Plan itself for literal months) is in itself telling;

and lastly, that I deeply resent both your tone and your implications (that I'm too dumb to realize Redcloak is all talk (never mind that you could not refute a number of key arguments to the contrary) and that I have an "utter nerve" for bringing up something you generously misrepresented as a strawman argument I never made).

That's the thing: Redcloak does care about the goblin people. He cares about them, in the abstract, so much that he's willing to sacrifice every existing Goblin for the sake of hypothetical future Goblins. Redcloak places "The Goblin People" over the majority of actual Goblin people he interacts with.

[Kish]

That's the thing: Redcloak does care about the goblin people. He cares about them, in the abstract, so much that he's willing to sacrifice every existing Goblin for the sake of hypothetical future Goblins. Redcloak places "The Goblin People" over the majority of actual Goblin people he interacts with.
I was possibly thrown enough by the claim that what he did at the end of Start of Darkness somehow gave his other actions an excuse that I expanded Redcloak's indifference to goblin lives beyond when it actually is.

Start of Darkness is--as the name suggests--the story of how a young goblin acolyte who wishes to serve his people becomes Redcloak, who serves his people, baked and with apples in their mouths, to Xykon, in the name of accomplishing the Plan with Xykon.

That does mean that any time prior to him murdering his brother, he actually cares about other goblins--though their significance in his eyes visibly dwindles over the course of the book. The validity of his "you can't try to kill Xykon, that would Hurt The Goblin People!" argument should be clear from the fact that the other goblins Redcloak was "concerned" about all died, inevitably, as the result of following Xykon; many of them were casually murdered by Xykon (oh, but Redcloak whined about it, that's surely vastly more genuine caring that his brother's attempt to destroy Xykon, right?). When a hobgoblin saved his life, he realized he has been turning into Xykon and recoiled. After that, he treats hobgoblins the same way he treats goblins: lots of talk, with all the actual individuals being casually and brutally sacrificed to the Greater Good, which bears an odd resemblance to a human skeleton.

[Squire Doodad]

When a hobgoblin saved his life, he realized he has been turning into Xykon and recoiled. After that, he treats hobgoblins the same way he treats goblins: lots of talk, with all the actual individuals being casually and brutally sacrificed to the Greater Good, which bears an odd resemblance to a human skeleton.

You can certainly make a major improvement to your moral and ethic compass and still be a horrible, short-sighted and uncaring person.

[danielxcutter]

You can certainly make a major improvement to your moral and ethic compass and still be a horrible, short-sighted and uncaring person.

Yeah, just because the bar was low enough that the IFCC uses it for the limbo dance during their parties doesn’t mean Redcloak didn’t clear it.

[Crimsonmantle]

a young goblin acolyte who wishes to serve his people becomes Redcloak, who serves his people, baked and with apples in their mouths

That's a lie, they were actually rinsed in honey mustard and garnished with a cracker.

[Squire Doodad]

That's a lie, they were actually rinsed in honey mustard and garnished with a cracker.

Did you forget the black pepper?

[Crimsonmantle]

Did you forget the black pepper?

Pepper was available to those who wanted it iirc.