View Full Version : Warlock new invocations
schreier
2022-02-25, 12:59 PM
Quick question about warlocks and prestige classes.
In Complete Arcane, on page 18, it says "A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class."
In the Warlock section, it says "At any level when a warlock learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same or a lower grade. At 6th level, a warlock can replace a least invocation he knows with a different least invocation (in addition to learning a new invocation, which could be either least or lesser). At 11th level, a warlock can replace a least or lesser invocation he knows with another invocation of the same or a lower grade (in addition to learning a new invocation, which could be least, lesser, or greater). At 16th level, a warlock can replace a least, lesser, or greater invocation he knows with another invocation of the same or a lower grade (in addition to learning a new invocation, which could be least, lesser, greater, or dark)."
This is different than a sorcerer's spell-swap ability which says "Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one."
The first sentence describes the ability as whenever they learn a new invocation, they can swap an existing one. The rest of the paragraph seems to just elaborate on the specific levels where higher levels invocations are gained to highlight that you cannot swap a lower for a higher invocation.
Based on my reading, a prestige class gained with +1 casting should be able to also swap an existing invocation. Am I missing anything?
Troacctid
2022-02-25, 01:12 PM
I agree with your interpretation.
Particle_Man
2022-02-25, 02:09 PM
Would a prestige class give you access to better grades of invocations in general (greater, dark), or are you stuck with swapping for least invocations?
schreier
2022-02-25, 02:41 PM
The way I read it - at each level that you get a new invocation, you can swap an existing out for a similarly or lower leveled one (so if you have lesser and least already, you can swap out either)
LecternOfJasper
2022-02-25, 02:51 PM
Would a prestige class give you access to better grades of invocations in general (greater, dark), or are you stuck with swapping for least invocations?
While I would totally allow that (and assume that's how it is supposed to be), last time I read through the text it didn't look that way, as it seemed like the better grades were a separate ability from the additional invocations gained (like meldshapers and chakra binds).
Troacctid
2022-02-25, 03:02 PM
While I would totally allow that (and assume that's how it is supposed to be), last time I read through the text it didn't look that way, as it seemed like the better grades were a separate ability from the additional invocations gained (like meldshapers and chakra binds).
No, it's part of the base invocations ability, the same way that access to higher level spells is part of the base spellcasting ability. Prestige classes will unlock new grades of invocations the same way they unlock new invocations known.
daniellemill
2022-02-26, 09:40 AM
I think at every level you get a new challenge, you can change the existing one to a similar one and not to a lower one!
LecternOfJasper
2022-02-26, 10:29 AM
No, it's part of the base invocations ability, the same way that access to higher level spells is part of the base spellcasting ability. Prestige classes will unlock new grades of invocations the same way they unlock new invocations known.
Oh neat! Good to know!
Gruftzwerg
2022-02-26, 11:29 AM
While I would totally allow that (and assume that's how it is supposed to be), last time I read through the text it didn't look that way, as it seemed like the better grades were a separate ability from the additional invocations gained (like meldshapers and chakra binds).
To solve the riddle where you got mislead here: it's the table. The table's visualization is misleading here. But thanks to "text trumps table" we can ignore that.
As Troacctid said, the progression of the invocation "grades" is part of the "invocation" ability itself. Thus the right PRC will progress it.
Yes it's confusing.
When I first read the Warlock class I assumed that whenever you gain a new invocation known then you can change an existing one. I was quite surprised when I discovered that people read this as whenever you gain a new grade of invocation you can swap an existing one. This reading reduces the 11 possible swaps down to 3 which significantly weakens the class and makes it less interesting to play.
PH2's retraining rules make a mockery of the reduced interpretation anyway since these would allow a swap whenever you level up.
Gruftzwerg
2022-02-26, 10:31 PM
Yes it's confusing.
When I first read the Warlock class I assumed that whenever you gain a new invocation known then you can change an existing one. I was quite surprised when I discovered that people read this as whenever you gain a new grade of invocation you can swap an existing one. This reading reduces the 11 possible swaps down to 3 which significantly weakens the class and makes it less interesting to play.
PH2's retraining rules make a mockery of the reduced interpretation anyway since these would allow a swap whenever you level up.
I have reread the text now multiple times to recheck, but I don't see how it should be anything else than your first assumption.
At any level when a warlock learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same or a lower grade.
The first sentence is imho the entire rule. "Whenever you learn a new invocation" you are allowed to make use of the exchange invocation ability.
All following sentences just explain the first one and how it interacts with the invocation grades.
learning a new invocation != learning/unlocking a new invocation grade
The four grades of invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater, and dark.
As said, the table is misleading. The so called "new invocation ()" ability in the table is imho referring to the invocation grades and thus is mislabeled and misleading (it should have been "new invocation grade"). It is "invocations known" that indicates whenever you "learn a new invocation".
No matter how I look at it, it seems to me that your first assumption is true. Did I miss anything?
No matter how I look at it, it seems to me that your first assumption is true. Did I miss anything?
IDK - it's just the interpretation which emerged.
IDK - it's just the interpretation which emerged.
It's from the FAQ, like other warlock interpretations that are hard to agree with.
It's from the FAQ, like other warlock interpretations that are hard to agree with.
Right, I thought it might be something like that.
TBF the FAQ did clear up some issues - like the effective spell level of invocations.
What clarification was that? I thought CArc was pretty clear on what it is and how it works.
Caster Level (CArc p72) implies Warlock Level = Caster Level, whereas Invocation Descriptions (CArc p132+) implies that it depends on the invocation.
Caster Level (CArc p72) implies Warlock Level = Caster Level, whereas Invocation Descriptions (CArc p132+) implies that it depends on the invocation.
Are we talking about caster level or equivalent spell level? Caster level does equal warlock level. CArc declares equivalent spell level of your eldritch blast is equal to one half your warlock level or the equivalent spell level of your essence/blast shape invocations, which ever is higher.
The errata changed eldritch blast's equivalent spell level to be a flat 1 or the highest applied invocation.
Other invocations are the equivalent spell level as declared in their description.
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