Drow Judicator, Drow Spell-like abilities... Drowest Drow.

[Condé]

Hi,

TL;DR: Trying to figure how to build a character around heavy use of drow spell-like abilities and the Drow Judicator prestige class and not being totally irrelevant. What I'm struggling with is low level (1-6 to maybe 9. This is not going to be a 20th level build. I'm trying to build a character playable from 1 to 10, or maybe 15.)


- A bit of backstory -
(You can skip this part if you're only interested by the build discussion)

I recently have find about this Prestige class in Underdark called Drow Judicator. I don't know why, but I love it. Really cool flavor, illustration for the class is a bit ridicule but still very Drow, you have a cool attack that deals 2d6 CON damage, you have a Divine grace-like feature (+3 profane bonus to all saving throws) you obtain a cool spider companion... I love it.

I wanted to play a Drow for a long time and now is the time. I really like this race as a whole. I don't think I'll be able to play one because you have to be Evil and it's very difficult to play an Evil party except if you know the other players very well so they won't do stupid things like attacking everyone on sight.

But I digress.

I'm really interested in boosting Spell-like abilities of drows. I don't know why either. But I like them. And... Strangely enough, you have a lot of support for Drows. (I mean, this race is Evil, they are the bad guy, they made everything to prevent you from playing one BUT you have at least 2 books almost entirely about the underdark, so 1 and a half book about Drows basically.)

After some research, I came out with neat little things there and here. I read a lot, and I mean, a looooot of threads on the subject but there is not many things on the Drow Judicator... Because it is not very powerful, and I don't think many players have played it. And I don't think many NPCs have this class either.

And yeah, I know, this class require you to be able to cast spell but is only 3/10 on spellcasting... So you're going to lose 7 levels of spellcasting. But I don't really care that much.


-- TALKING ABOUT THE BUILD --
(Mostly suboptimal drow things)

I... I'm not sure. And that is why I'm here.

Constraints:
- No BaB loss (I mean I will already have garbage spellcasting I can't have everything bad)... And I don't want to delay the Drow judicator entry.
- Being able to use Gift of the spider queen reliably. (So, not only 1/day)
- Don't care about spells. (You can throw things at me, I'm ok with that)
- I must have Combat Reflexes and Lolth's Meat before level 6. (Lolth's Meat is flavorful... But not great. And by not great I mean bad.)
- I'm using the feat Drow Legacy in order to get the spell-like abilities of the Drow on a Half-Drow.

Why a Half-Drow?
- I'm not a big fan of LA buyoff as you're going to be being your pals for a long time. Living with a LA +2 is really painful.
- Racial Class level is not that much of a difference. (Drow of the underdark pg 220)
- Only way to play a Drow without LA as far as I know...


PROBLEM #1: MAD LAD

My problem is... All Drow Judicator abilities is Cha-based.
In order to get the spell-like abilities of the Drow, I must have Drow Legacy AND 13 int.
I will have to be a melee character. Forget about dex, I'm going to need a bit of strength. And a bit of Con in order to not die.

And this is even before talking about a proper build or anything. This character is going to be really, really mad. I checked ths list of stuff and X stat to Y Bonus multiple times and I can't figure a proper way to get Int or Cha to att/dmg constantly. Which seems fair at first to be honest. But is really crippling this character.

If you add some paladin or ranger you will probably need some wisdom too. (Not necesserily but still)


PROBLEM #2: SPELLCASTING

In order to enter the Drow Judicator prc you need to be able to cast 1st level arcane OR divine spells. (Spell-like abilities do no count)

So you are going to need some spellcasting class. One with a full Bab. You only have few options.
- Duskblade
- Paladin
- Ranger
- Hexblade

And that's pretty much it.
Because this character is going to lack dexterity, he is probably going to want to wear some heavy armor. Duskblade and hexblade, this early, are not going to be able to cast spell in heavy armor.
Paladin might be the only one.

Not really a problem since I do not care about the spellcasting anyway. Just wanted to note that because I was thinking of taking Duskblade 3 in order to have Arcane Channeling but I would not be able to use it. (Since you still CAST the spell, I guess the arcane failure still applies)



PROBLEM #3: OTHER THINGS

Really like Mindsight. In fact, I wanted to make a class with a dip of mindbender before wanting to make a Drow Judicator. Only way to get Mindsight without losing any point of Bab is to take Shape Soulmeld: Shedu Crown (100' of telepathy)

But, as you are going to see, this build is going to be feat starved.


DIFFERENT BUILDS (1-6)

I really have 3 options.


--OPTIONS #1--

Duskblade 1 - Fighter 2 - Whatever 2 - Drow Judicator X
+ 2 Flaws

Half-Drow (half-elf variant), LE

Feats:
1 - From level 1 and 2 Flaws:
Drow Legacy (No choice), Magic in the blood (No choice), Gift of the Spider Queen (because why not)
From Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
2 - From Fighter 2: Free
3 - Lolth's Meat
6 - Free

So. With this I don't have many room. I can't even take Shape Soulmeld and Mindsight and fulfill my deepest, darkest, drowest fantasy... Because you can't pick those feats with Fighter Bonus feats. I could take Power Attack and anything else at 6 and call it a day, but that seems really boring.

This character is like trying to fit everything in the first 5 levels in order to be able to use all these spell-like abilites reliably at early levels and get all the Drow Judicator pre-req. (They are not steep fortunately)


--OPTIONS #2--

Dex based

Duskblade 3 - Fighter 1 - Swashbuckler 1 (Arcane Stunt ACF) - Drow Judicator X
+ 2 Flaws

Half-Drow (half-elf variant), LE

Feats:
1 - From level 1 and 2 Flaws:
Drow Legacy (No choice), Magic in the blood (No choice), Gift of the Spider Queen (because why not)
From Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
2 - From Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finess
3 - Lolth's Meat
6 - Knowledge Devotion

With this build I would be able to use Duskblade spells without worrying too much. Just spam Shivering touch or Shocking Grasp and call it a day.
Wearing light armor, high dex and dealing damage mostly with Arcane Channeling and ask for a 8hrs rest when there is no spells left to cast.

Because of Duskblade and something like 14 int, you wouild be able to pump some bonus from Knowledge Devotion. It is not outstanding by any mean but it would be a realiable source of att/dmg. I guess... And an easy way to add the damage you lose by having a bad strength.


--OPTIONS #3--

Sneak Attack

Fighter 3 (Sneak Attack ACF, maybe add Thug) - Duskblade 1 - Whatever 1 - Drow Judicator X
+ 2 Flaws

Half-Drow (half-elf variant), LE

Feats:
1 - From level 1 and 2 Flaws:
Drow Legacy (No choice), Magic in the blood (No choice), Combat Reflexes
3 - Lolth's Meat
6 - Gift of the Spider Queen (because why not)
9 - Staggering Strike

No feat. Really sad build. But at least you deal some sneak attack damage. The idea behind this build was to be a "Support role" and try to stagger most people I could. By having a flanking buddy (Or an animal companino, later with Drow Judicator) you would be able to deal them realiably. Problem is... It's only 2d6, you have no way to boost this class feature via the Prestige Class and Staggering Strike is not going to be hard to resist because you are not going to do a lot of damage. I like the idea because you were "set" with only 1 feat.
The problem is you have even less feat because your only source of bonus feat is replaced by sneak attacks and I don't think there is another way to get SA without losing Bab points... Life suck.


--OPTIONS #4--

I'm a paladin now. An evil one. (Poison-based)

Paladin of Tyranny 4 (Underdark Knight ACF?) - Fighter 1 - Drow Judicator X
+ 2 Flaws

Half-Drow (half-elf variant), LE

Feats:
1 - From level 1 and 2 Flaws:
Drow Legacy (No choice), Magic in the blood (No choice), Gift of the Spider Queen (because why not)
From fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
3 - Lolth's Meat
6 - Master Poison
9 - Lolth Caress

Using poison is really Drow, don't you think?

The idea behind this build is to have nice Paladin features. You are going to end up with Cha to save with Divine Grace and +3 with Selvetarm's Blessing.
You will need some CHA (At least 14 to be interesting), Int 13 (For spell-like abilities) some CON and STR... And at least 11 wisdom to be able to cast 1st level paladin spells.

You have Intimidate as a Class Skill, thanks to Paladin of Tyranny.

At 6 you take Master Poison. It could be more interesting to take it at 1st level and take Gift of the Spider Queen at 6, I don't really care.

My problem with poison is that you need a lot of downtime and to spend some money on it and there is not really anything you can do about it.
You could take the feat Hidden Talent for Psi Minor Creation to create some nice poison... but it would last only for 1 hour. So... Meh.
And there is no full Bab Psionic class... So no dip for you.


-- CONCLUSION --


As you can see, I don't really know what to do. I don't show everything I have got (I even considered something like Fighter 2 - Ranger 2 - Duskblade 1 to have Rapid Fire via Ranger and take Hand Crossbow Focus but... Yeah. Ranged combat without many feats is not going to be incredible...)

I really wanted to make the most out of this idea, but whatever I do I feel this character is going to be really, really weak. I wanted to build something around this concept but I really think it is going to be far, far behind in term of damage. And most Spell-like abilites options from this character are defensive one. But as you know, if you don't deal damage, your DM is not going to target you. And your defensive abilities are a bit of a waste if nobody care about you...

Is there something obvious I am missing?

I'm not entirely sold with damages. I could do something else (See the poison build for example, but poisons have low DC, are expensive and need time to craft). Control, buff or debuff is fine too... But I don't have many room to play with so it's not easy.

What do you guys think? I'm not looking for something even remotly powerful... I just want to make this character at least useful. I don't doubt it would be fun to play. But I don't want this character to be a dead weight to the party.

Do not hesitate to come with your ideas, I would be glad to know about them.

[Scots Dragon]

I feel like a really good entry to this would involve blackguard or similar, as a champion of Lolth. The evil Paladin admittedly fulfils the same ideas, though.

[Rilem]

Given that Lolth’s Meat gives extra bonuses for touch spells, that seems to be a vote for Duskblade.

Fighter2/Duskblade4(For Medium Armor Casting/JudicatorX


Another idea: Crusader, which gives a bit more Cha synergy and can makes good use of Combat Reflexes with Thicket of Blades.

Finally, I’d suggest something with True Strike as an available spell, even if it costs you BAB, because you can’t afford to miss with your one War Strike a day. Ranger2/Fighter2/Assassin2/Judicator4 Gets you BAB9, 2nd level Assassin spells. See if you can grab one of the alternative ranger styles from Dragon.

[Bphill561]

I keep coming up short on feats, anyone have ideas along this line. Assumes lots of dragon mag. Also assuming Favored class xp penalties are not in place since several of your builds have differences of 2 levels.

Paladin 4/Fighter 2/Drow Judicator 2/Divine Crusader 4/ Drow Judicator 8

L1 Extend Spell
Flaw 1 Drow Legacy
Flaw 1 Magic in the Blood
L3 Lolth Meat
Fighter Bonus Weapon Focus
Fighter Bonus Combat Reflexes
L6 Sword of the Arcane Order
L9 Customize Domain
L12 Persistent Spell
L15 Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell

So Divine crusader is Cha based casting, you lose one BAB but get fast track on casting. I put 4 levels in divine crusader, then advance it once with drow Judicator to get 5th level spells. Sword of the Arcane Order adds wizards spells to your paladin list. Customize domain lets you swap out spells on your domain for other spells you have access to. Thunderlance is 4th on the wizard list, it would come in at 5th if you put it on the Magic Domain (customize domain rules, although you might be able to get it to 4th on another domain). That is a lot of work to get Cha to attack and damage and it comes in late.

Other class that might be of interest is mystic ranger (divine spells at level 1 with Full BAB) alternative and battle dancer from the Dragon compendium (Full BAB and Cha to AC when not wearing armor).

[Condé]

I feel like a really good entry to this would involve blackguard or similar, as a champion of Lolth. The evil Paladin admittedly fulfils the same ideas, though.

Thought about it. But it comes online even later than Drow Judicator as it requires +6 BAB. So it doesn't really help.


Given that Lolth’s Meat gives extra bonuses for touch spells, that seems to be a vote for Duskblade.

Fighter2/Duskblade4(For Medium Armor Casting/JudicatorX


Another idea: Crusader, which gives a bit more Cha synergy and can makes good use of Combat Reflexes with Thicket of Blades.

Finally, I’d suggest something with True Strike as an available spell, even if it costs you BAB, because you can’t afford to miss with your one War Strike a day. Ranger2/Fighter2/Assassin2/Judicator4 Gets you BAB9, 2nd level Assassin spells. See if you can grab one of the alternative ranger styles from Dragon.

Fighter 2 / Duskblade is probably the most straightforward solution. The problem is I can only take Fighter 1 / Duskblade 4 or forget about the 4th level of Duskblade and take Fighter 2 / Duskblade 3 because I want to enter Drow Judicator as fast as possible.

Second build is interesting. But as far as I know, to enter the Assassin PrC you need 8 ranks in both Hide and Move silently, preventing you to take the prestige class before 6th level. We could enter Drow later, at 7th level (But I really don't want to) and make something like Ranger2/Fighter2/BattleDancer1 or Swashbuckler1/Assassin1/Judicator X.. But I tend to avoid Dragon mag/compendium stuff and, as I sad, I'm trying my best not to delay the entry into Drow Judicator.


I keep coming up short on feats, anyone have ideas along this line. Assumes lots of dragon mag. Also assuming Favored class xp penalties are not in place since several of your builds have differences of 2 levels.

Paladin 4/Fighter 2/Drow Judicator 2/Divine Crusader 4/ Drow Judicator 8

L1 Extend Spell
Flaw 1 Drow Legacy
Flaw 1 Magic in the Blood
L3 Lolth Meat
Fighter Bonus Weapon Focus
Fighter Bonus Combat Reflexes
L6 Sword of the Arcane Order
L9 Customize Domain
L12 Persistent Spell
L15 Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell

So Divine crusader is Cha based casting, you lose one BAB but get fast track on casting. I put 4 levels in divine crusader, then advance it once with drow Judicator to get 5th level spells. Sword of the Arcane Order adds wizards spells to your paladin list. Customize domain lets you swap out spells on your domain for other spells you have access to. Thunderlance is 4th on the wizard list, it would come in at 5th if you put it on the Magic Domain (customize domain rules, although you might be able to get it to 4th on another domain). That is a lot of work to get Cha to attack and damage and it comes in late.

Other class that might be of interest is mystic ranger (divine spells at level 1 with Full BAB) alternative and battle dancer from the Dragon compendium (Full BAB and Cha to AC when not wearing armor).

XP penalty is one of a few rules I'm not applying because, as most people, I think this is not a good rule. At all.

Interesting ideas. I'm not really into Dragon mag stuff so I could swap Customize Domain for something else, sure. With this, I lose Gift of the Spider Queen, which is sad because I think it is one of the most interesting feature of focusing on Spell-like abilities for a Drow. Plus, taking Sword of the Arcane Order as a Drow seems a bit complicated to justify, don't you think?

Plus you could skip the first second level of fighter, forgot about Weapon Focus and be Paladin4/Fighter1/Drow Judicator2-3/Divine Crusader4/Drow JudicatorX


There isn't many PrC you can enter before 5. (Except survivalist but... Yeah.) (And some others) and they doesn't really help. I am really trying to get in Drow Judicator as fast as possible and stay in the class. But with these many feats used for spell-like abilities, it is hard to see what this character could do efficiently except using these abilities. Which is a shame.

Drow Judicator is more melee oriented, obviously. Melee range has many options to be usefull but they all need feats investments. Tripping, Disarming, Combat Style, TWF is not even considered at this point, Crit-fishing, Charger (Not even talking about ubercharge). And focusing combat reflexes seem like a good idea, but that would mean being Dex-focused and forget about doing damage.

Spiked Chain was considered. But you need feats... Or a Domain. But I didn't find anyway to get a Domain.

Ordained Champion was considered. Because you can take it a level 5. It gives you a Bonus Domain (War) which is perfect since that could gives you 2 feats for the predilection weapon of your deity.
Problem is... One of the prereq is Weapon Focus. Sad. AND, You must worship Hextor or Heironeous. (Though in Complete Champion it is suggered you can swap these deities for any with the war domain. Selvetarm has the War Domain so it wouldn't be a problem.)

You can enter Ordained Champion via Paladin 4 or Duskblade X by taking Arcane Disciple as a feat BUT you only get the spells if you take a domain that gives you Magic Weapon (Like the War Domain) you will not get the Granted Powers with it and so you will get the war domain and just get two times the same spells... So you're just taking a feat in order to get into a domain that will give you the spells you get by taking a feat and... Yeah. But you will have a free feat for your favored weapon's deity.

BUT... If there's another way to obtain a domain (Without Cleric dipping or Wizard ACF, losing a bab point in the process) it could be really awesome.

EDIT: Don't take all the paragraph on Ordained Champion in consideration. You only get the spells as Arcane Disciple, so no Domain Ability for you. So you have to take Weapon Focus and Arcane Disciple for almost no benefit.

[Bphill561]

XP penalty is one of a few rules I'm not applying because, as most people, I think this is not a good rule. At all.

Interesting ideas. I'm not really into Dragon mag stuff so I could swap Customize Domain for something else, sure. With this, I lose Gift of the Spider Queen, which is sad because I think it is one of the most interesting feature of focusing on Spell-like abilities for a Drow. Plus, taking Sword of the Arcane Order as a Drow seems a bit complicated to justify, don't you think?

Plus you could skip the first second level of fighter, forgot about Weapon Focus and be Paladin4/Fighter1/Drow Judicator2-3/Divine Crusader4/Drow JudicatorX


Oops, I thought I was being sneaky with Mystra's extended alignment allowances, but I forgot that Divine Crusader requires an exact alignment match. Without customize domain though, it is not really much of a loss. I cannot think of any other classes with wizard spell access that are full BAB for Customize Domain to work.

You still need Weapon focus for Divine Crusader.

Maybe UMD with the right item can add the spell to your list effectively, otherwise Extend, Persistent, and Divine Metamagic are not needed. Channel Charge would work if you could get a staff with Thunderlance. All of those feats were just to get Cha to attack, ha. That brings Gift of the Spider Queen back. Too bad Drow Paragon is more BAB loss or you could get another use of your spell-like abilities.

[Condé]

Oops, I thought I was being sneaky with Mystra's extended alignment allowances, but I forgot that Divine Crusader requires an exact alignment match. Without customize domain though, it is not really much of a loss. I cannot think of any other classes with wizard spell access that are full BAB for Customize Domain to work.

You still need Weapon focus for Divine Crusader.

Maybe UMD with the right item can add the spell to your list effectively, otherwise Extend, Persistent, and Divine Metamagic are not needed. Channel Charge would work if you could get a staff with Thunderlance. All of those feats were just to get Cha to attack, ha. That brings Gift of the Spider Queen back. Too bad Drow Paragon is more BAB loss or you could get another use of your spell-like abilities.

It is the main problem of what I'm trying to achieve. Not having to care much about bab would have spared me a lot of trouble. Number of feats is also important because of all you have to take to use Gift of the spider Queen reliably and not just like once per day.

What I've come up lately is, not really elegant, but satisfactory.

Ranger 2 / Fighter 1 / Duskblade 1 / Warblade 1

Level 1 - Drow Legacy (Which gives you Exotic Weapon Profiency: Hand crossbow. More on that in a bit.) / Flaws feats: Magic in the Blood + Gift of the spider queen.
Level 2 - Combat Style: Two-weapon fighting (To bypass the 15dex prereq)
Level 3 - Lolth's Meat / From Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Level 4 -
Level 5 - Oversized Two Weapons fighting

Why going into TWF with so few feats left? Because it's not going to be that bad... At low level.

The key is the Warblade level, which gives:
- Punishing Stance (+1d6 damage to every attack)
- Some maneuvers (Wall of blades for example)
- Weapon Aptitude (The class feature, not the weapon enhancement) because... Yes, remember the free Exotic Weapon proficiency from Drow Legacy?)

With Weapon aptitude + Drow Legacy + Oversized TWF, you can use any weapon in the game. For ever. Double weapon? Check'd. Spiked chain? Check'd. Dual-wielding Bastard Sword? Check'd.

It's not optimal by any mean, but i think it is pretty neat to be able to use any weapon your DM is gonna throw at you, whatever this is.

Add some Strongarm Bracers and you'll be able to use some oversized weapon as well without penalty.

As I said, maybe not great, but fun.

[noce]

I see you said the only way you know to play drow without LA is half drow.
Another option exists: lesser drow from player's guide to faerun.

[Condé]

I see you said the only way you know to play drow without LA is half drow.
Another option exists: lesser drow from player's guide to faerun.


Playing a lesser drow prevent you from using Gift of the Spider Queen, sadly... Because their SLA are swapped from dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire, to dancing lights, daze, touch of fatigue.

The feat precisely call each use of SLA you need to burn in order to activate the abilities from the feat, because you don't have the right SLA.

Lesser Drow was my first guess and was planing to use them for this build, because it is so good for Aasimar (It's just like regular Aasimar but without a LA juste because you are no more an outsider) BUT, I guess the designers decided having darkness, faerie fire and dancing light was too strong so they instead give you access to level 0 spells.

[Telonius]

Reading this, I'd really want to somehow combine the whole idea with the Warlock trick - take the "Blend Into Darkness" feat, Warlock1 and select Darkness as your Invocation. Invocations are SLAs, and you have an effectively limitless supply of them, so it's a sneaky way to get Hide in Plain Sight whenever you want it. If you get a sneak attack die in any way (maybe Sneak Attack Fighter), and take the Craven feat, it's (1d6+your level) extra damage for each attack. Very Drow-y.