Reining in Simulacrum

[kingcheesepants]

I've DMd games where players made use of Simulacrum and I've been a player who used Simulacrum. I really love the flavor of the spell and I think it's super cool. However that being said it's a really strong spell, like honestly even for a 7th level spell with a 12 hour casting time and expensive material components it's way too good. Even if you don't do any exploits to abuse it it's still running around giving the wizard a 2nd concentration slot and doubling their spell output and effectively giving them advantage on every skill check. I don't want to ban the spell and I don't generally like nerfing things but I feel like something needs to be done. I've got a few ideas.

1. More anti-magic enemies. Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Anti-magic field. Just making things more difficult for our wizard.

2. Soft ban of spell by limiting time/gold and making it more difficult to cast. If they don't have 12 hours to sit around casting spells and/or the money then they can't get new simulacrum.

3. Nerfing the spell. Maybe make it have a duration of 1 day or 8 hours rather than until dispelled. Or make it so that it can't do anything unless you use a bonus action to command it. Or some other nerf that will allow the spell to be used but make it more in line with other spells of that level.

4. Just ban it. No spell, no problem (complaining wizards not withstanding).

5. Just accept it. The wizard is crazy strong, that's just part of the game. And In the words of V "It's not as if it's our (casters) fault that they (non casters) chose a class not capable of doing everything".

So what do you guys think, how should I deal with simulacrum going forward and what do you do?

[noob]

At least he is not using it on humanoid monsters that have special abilities not accessible to adventurers to try and break the game more with monster abilities.

[Frogreaver]

I've DMd games where players made use of Simulacrum and I've been a player who used Simulacrum. I really love the flavor of the spell and I think it's super cool. However that being said it's a really strong spell, like honestly even for a 7th level spell with a 12 hour casting time and expensive material components it's way too good. Even if you don't do any exploits to abuse it it's still running around giving the wizard a 2nd concentration slot and doubling their spell output and effectively giving them advantage on every skill check. I don't want to ban the spell and I don't generally like nerfing things but I feel like something needs to be done. I've got a few ideas.

1. More anti-magic enemies. Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Anti-magic field. Just making things more difficult for our wizard.

Harms other casters equally.


2. Soft ban of spell by limiting time/gold and making it more difficult to cast. If they don't have 12 hours to sit around casting spells and/or the money then they can't get new simulacrum.

Time is generally not an issue. The PC can simply choose to not adventure on a given day (and then there's also the wish version).
Restricting Money could work (though it would have far reaching consequences) - but it also doesn't impact the Wish version.


3. Nerfing the spell. Maybe make it have a duration of 1 day or 8 hours rather than until dispelled. Or make it so that it can't do anything unless you use a bonus action to command it. Or some other nerf that will allow the spell to be used but make it more in line with other spells of that level.

Wouldn't really help the Wish version. The change would make the level 7 version be much more niche though.


4. Just ban it. No spell, no problem (complaining wizards not withstanding).

This works best IMO.


5. Just accept it. The wizard is crazy strong, that's just part of the game. And In the words of V "It's not as if it's our (casters) fault that they (non casters) chose a class not capable of doing everything".

Simulcarum is one of the reasons Wizards are deemed as strong as they are. Removing it removes a large source of Wizard power.


So what do you guys think, how should I deal with simulacrum going forward and what do you do?

You could make it only able to use cantrips (It's still a strong spell even with that). Barring that, drastically limit the max level spells it can cast and the number of slots it has.

[Eldariel]

I use the 3.5 version of Simulacrum (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), pretty much. The price is a bit greater: as it stands, that's preferable as if you restrict gold, the Str melee guy won't have his Fullplate ever making the whole Str melee shtick kinda worthless. Also, all the abilities are just halved (casting of half-level Wizard for instance). It's still strong but it's at least not as absurdly strong as the current version. It's almost fair, in line with Planar Binding and such.

[kingcheesepants]

At least he is not using it on humanoid monsters that have special abilities not accessible to adventurers to try and break the game more with monster abilities.

Are you talking about Magic Jar? I know that theoretically that's a crazy powerful spell that can do all sorts of shenanigans but I've never seen it used for anything noteworthy in actual play.

Generally speaking the folks I've played with haven't really abused Simulacrum or Wish either. It's just that even within RAI Simulacrum is just really strong.



Time is generally not an issue. The PC can simply choose to not adventure on a given day (and then there's also the wish version).
Restricting Money could work (though it would have far reaching consequences) - but it also doesn't impact the Wish version.

Wouldn't really help the Wish version. The change would make the level 7 version be much more niche though.


I'm honestly not too concerned about the Wish version. By the time Wish is on the table game balance is gone. As for time, yeah it's generally not an issue but it can easily be made an issue. Just throw non-stop problems that the team has to deal with urgently and make it so that they have only just enough time to long rest before heading back out into the fray.


I use the 3.5 version of Simulacrum (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), pretty much. The price is a bit greater: as it stands, that's preferable as if you restrict gold, the Str melee guy won't have his Fullplate ever making the whole Str melee shtick kinda worthless. Also, all the abilities are just halved (casting of half-level Wizard for instance). It's still strong but it's at least not as absurdly strong as the current version. It's almost fair, in line with Planar Binding and such.

Honestly this is a huge nerf but definitely puts the spell more in line with what feels appropriate. I'll seriously consider this.

[Tanarii]

The average Tier 3 Hoard is 36000gp. You get two per level, if it's averaged out. You're expected to do on average 1.5-3 adventuring days per level, depending on how many non-combat non-easy, and combat solo, duo and 3-6 encounters you have. Let's call it 2 for simple math. So 36000gp per adventuring day.

So yeah, the material cost is probably too low. The added benefit is basically another person for that adventuring day, but without a share of treasure and xp. So in Tier 3, a value of something like 6000 gp and somewhere on the order of 10-20k XP.

[Eldariel]

Are you talking about Magic Jar? I know that theoretically that's a crazy powerful spell that can do all sorts of shenanigans but I've never seen it used for anything noteworthy in actual play.

Generally speaking the folks I've played with haven't really abused Simulacrum or Wish either. It's just that even within RAI Simulacrum is just really strong.

I've used Magic Jar and seen it used plenty. It's just a spell players shy away from (much like Animate Dead, Conjure Animals, etc. outside specific archetypes built on those, even though those spells are absurdly strong on the baseline level), but in any particular campaign, as long as it involves some powerful humanoid faction, it's going to be incredible. Any permanent upgrades are stupid strong, in general, and I don't think lack of popularity is a reason to leave such spells in gamebreaking state.

FWIW I find Magic Jar easy to fix: I just have it not grant abilities (that is, I build NPCs by PC rules so their innate abilities are just those of their race). It's still very useful and strong but no longer a gateway to bull**** NPC abilities (though I haven't really found a good reason to have bull**** NPC abilities outside of what PCs can already do). True Polymorph -> Magic Jar -> Dispel True Polymorph is another can of worms but it's specific enough that I don't find it problematic. Hell, I rather prefer Magic Jar able to steal other kinds of bodies too, rather than restrict it to humanoids; it just feels sort of arbitrary at least at the baseline.

[cookieface]

What about simply changing it to be a 9th level spell? No more Wish cheesing, and forced to choose between it and Wish each day. And it would still, arguably, be the second best 9th level spell. This is similar to my preferred fix for Silvery Barbs, which is simply saying it is a 2nd level spell, much like **all the rest** of the Strixhaven spells. Why it was ever the outlier among those spells when, spell level notwithstanding, it is the best of them anyways is beyond me.

(Alternatively, make it a soft-ban by not allowing it to be added to a spell book via level-up. Force Wizards to find a scroll of it out in the world, which you then control the availability of.)

[Frogreaver]

I'm honestly not too concerned about the Wish version. By the time Wish is on the table game balance is gone. As for time, yeah it's generally not an issue but it can easily be made an issue. Just throw non-stop problems that the team has to deal with urgently and make it so that they have only just enough time to long rest before heading back out into the fray.

I'm still not sure why you are good with having wish being able to bypass whatever 'nerf' you place on the level 7 version of the spell. That doesn't make alot of sense to me.

IMO. the last part sounds alot like: "You used this spell so now I'm going to send more of my unlimited monsters to you over it." PCs shouldn't face the consequences of DM Fiat just for using a spell when you've not actually nerfed or banned it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Personally, my changes are
* Any wish-stress affects the caster of the simulacrum as well.
* No simulacrum can regain any resource at all, except via the alchemical means of regaining HP set out in the spell.
* No simulacrum or other conjured or created creature can or will use any ability or spell that would conjure or create another creature. Period. Full stop. No exceptions.
* (Narrative) simulacra can't learn or be taught new facts or ideas (cannot create long-term memories). When presented with situations they've not seen, they will react (in the absence of orders) with their best interpolation from facts and ideas they had when created. They have no soul. They cannot grow in any way. Which makes using one long-term risky, as it will become apparent to anyone watching closely that they're just repeating things. New person? They'll not remember the name or face beyond initial meeting. Etc.
* Polymorph or other transformations on a simulacrum result it something that has the limits of both. And the benefits of neither. It gets no abilities with charges/slots, never recharges any abilities, cannot learn, but is no longer bound by your orders. And that doesn't go away when the polymorph ends.

[kingcheesepants]

The average Tier 3 Hoard is 36000gp. You get two per level, if it's averaged out. You're expected to do on average 1.5-3 adventuring days per level, depending on how many non-combat non-easy, and combat solo, duo and 3-6 encounters you have. Let's call it 2 for simple math. So 36000gp per adventuring day.

So yeah, the material cost is probably too low. The added benefit is basically another person for that adventuring day, but without a share of treasure and xp. So in Tier 3, a value of something like 6000 gp and somewhere on the order of 10-20k XP.

I should really show the DM of the tier 3 game I'm in right now those numbers. I haven't been getting anything even remotely close to that. I don't remember how much exactly my players were making when I was doing a tier 3 game but component costs were little more than an afterthought and the only thing they really thought about before buying would be things like castles or spelljamming ships. So yeah in a normal tier 3 game it's clearly too cheap.


I'm still not sure why you are good with having wish being able to bypass whatever 'nerf' you place on the level 7 version of the spell. That doesn't make alot of sense to me.

IMO. the last part sounds alot like: "You used this spell so now I'm going to send more of my unlimited monsters to you over it." PCs shouldn't face the consequences of DM Fiat just for using a spell when you've not actually nerfed or banned it.

I'm not super concerned with Wish bypassing most of the nerfs because they would have to use a wish for that and in regards to changing the duration it would mean they don't get any other wishes while the Simulacrum is up. Essentially making it a 9th level spell. But in general there's a lot of crazy stuff going on in tier 4 and Simulacrum doesn't seem too out of place. It's still excellent to be sure but there's a lot of other absurdly powerful stuff and the game balance isn't really a thing anymore. In tier 3 though Simulacrum is a notable outlier.

In regards to putting constant time pressure on the team (which may or may not come in the form of hordes of monsters) it's fine to do once in a while or if you have group buy in that they want to be in a super hard stressful game like that but in general having always on pressure of that sort wouldn't be too fun and I don't run games like that. And you're totally right that putting the game on super hard mode just to deal with one spell isn't fair for the team in general and is particularly not a cool thing to do if you haven't discussed it with the group.


Personally, my changes are
* Any wish-stress affects the caster of the simulacrum as well.
* No simulacrum can regain any resource at all, except via the alchemical means of regaining HP set out in the spell.
* No simulacrum or other conjured or created creature can or will use any ability or spell that would conjure or create another creature. Period. Full stop. No exceptions.
* (Narrative) simulacra can't learn or be taught new facts or ideas (cannot create long-term memories). When presented with situations they've not seen, they will react (in the absence of orders) with their best interpolation from facts and ideas they had when created. They have no soul. They cannot grow in any way. Which makes using one long-term risky, as it will become apparent to anyone watching closely that they're just repeating things. New person? They'll not remember the name or face beyond initial meeting. Etc.
* Polymorph or other transformations on a simulacrum result it something that has the limits of both. And the benefits of neither. It gets no abilities with charges/slots, never recharges any abilities, cannot learn, but is no longer bound by your orders. And that doesn't go away when the polymorph ends.

These are great rules for stopping the most egregious abuses of the spell (wish abuse, crazy levels of minionomancy) but they don't really address my problem which is that even using the spell as intended and without abusing it, it's just really really good and makes the player who has it a notable outlier in effectiveness.

What about simply changing it to be a 9th level spell? No more Wish cheesing, and forced to choose between it and Wish each day. And it would still, arguably, be the second best 9th level spell. This is similar to my preferred fix for Silvery Barbs, which is simply saying it is a 2nd level spell, much like **all the rest** of the Strixhaven spells. Why it was ever the outlier among those spells when, spell level notwithstanding, it is the best of them anyways is beyond me.

(Alternatively, make it a soft-ban by not allowing it to be added to a spell book via level-up. Force Wizards to find a scroll of it out in the world, which you then control the availability of.)

Making it 9th level feels like the appropriate level and would cleanly get rid of Wish abuse, but it's such a fun spell that I really want to let it stay where it is so that people can actually use it more than once in a blue moon. I think maybe what I'll do is have Simulacrum as a 9th level spell and then have the 3.5 version (half your level in everything not just HP) be a level 7 spell. Something like True Simulacrum and Simulacrum respectively.

As for making them have to find it, it doesn't really address the issue except to delay it by a bit.

[Tanarii]

I should really show the DM of the tier 3 game I'm in right now those numbers. I haven't been getting anything even remotely close to that. I don't remember how much exactly my players were making when I was doing a tier 3 game but component costs were little more than an afterthought and the only thing they really thought about before buying would be things like castles or spelljamming ships. So yeah in a normal tier 3 game it's clearly too cheap.
Well, the gold is really there for buying castles, temples, Wizard towers, and network of guild halls and trading posts. The math is pretty clearly designed so each character can build one by mid to late Tier 3 (or pool resources for an earlier purchase), and then go an an adventuring day about once every 6 months to pay for the upkeep, and the aristocratic lifestyle they've probably been living since the beginning of Tier 2.

But, yknow, if a game totally ignores that, material costs of 1000gp is a drop in the bucket.

Or unless the Xan rules for purchasing magic items are in force and time is spent on that instead, I guess. Even then it's still better value spent on Simulacrum for how much it'll affect the next adventuring day.

[Kane0]

My preferred change is the slot used to cast it is used up as long as it exists (you cant get that slot back until its gone) and it loses 1 HP and 1 max HP per hour spent in direct sunlight.

[KorvinStarmast]

For those interested, here's an interesting take on the simulacrum regenerating HP (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/196381/22566) on a short rest, and the limitation of never regenerating those HD. Kind of makes sense (when it uses up it's last HD it has 0 HD to expend) and if that errata comes along I'd not be averse to it.

A simulacrum is meant to lose efficacy over time, essentially running out of juice, until only at-will abilities remain. An argument can be made that regaining hit die is not an at-will ability, so one could use those HD until exhausted, like spell slots.

Or, one can restrict the healing to the repair scheme in the spell description.

[Thunderous Mojo]

These are great rules for stopping the most egregious abuses of the spell (wish abuse, crazy levels of minionomancy) but they don't really address my problem which is that even using the spell as intended and without abusing it, it's just really really good and makes the player who has it a notable outlier in effectiveness. .

A Moon Druid's Wildshape at 2nd level, is also a notable outlier in terms of power. Of course, eventually, Wildshape out grows being a dominating option, and Simulacrum most likely will remain relevant.

If a Wizard receives a Simulacrum for reaching 13th level, and the DM is afraid other characters will be overshadowed, then a DM can provide those characters other rewards.

A Barbarian that has a Dragon mount may feel just fine, even if the Wizard has a Simulacrum up.

Simulacrum and Wish, are two spells that should excepted from the free spells learned from level up. From a Role Play standpoint, both spells are an excellent reward at the end of quests.

[Psyren]

I've never seen a version of D&D or PF where Simulacrum wasn't a mess that resulted in dozens of threads of proposed fixes, calls for banning, and heavy/arbitrary nerfs in organized play. I understand why the designers like it but the whole thing just needs a ground-up redesign.

[Sigreid]

I'll be the honest contrarian here. I've never actually seen it be a problem at the table. Only in discussions of what you could do with it on the internet, never with what someone has actually done with it.

[Tanarii]

I'll be the honest contrarian here. I've never actually seen it be a problem at the table. Only in discussions of what you could do with it on the internet, never with what someone has actually done with it.
Is that due to PCs not having enough time, enough gold, or just a gentleman's agreement?

[JLandan]

I have not really run into too much trouble with this spell. One simple nerf I would put on it is Range: Touch, Not Self.

By not being able to make copies of themselves, it becomes more of a support buff rather than a self-buff.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll be the honest contrarian here. I've never actually seen it be a problem at the table. Only in discussions of what you could do with it on the internet, never with what someone has actually done with it.


Is that due to PCs not having enough time, enough gold, or just a gentleman's agreement? My DM felt that he had to adjust the True Polymorph ~ permanent spell feature (conc for the full hour) to "at the one hour point the the creature returns to its original form" once I had TP'd my CR 14 sim (the first one I had made) into an adult emerald dragon (and he did warn me ahead of time).

And there I was, all excited about having an adult dragon to ride around on, and I was thinking about making a bespoke saddle/harness made. :smallbiggrin: (Yes, I kept feather fall from about level 3 to the end of the campaign). Still had fun with it.

[noob]

I have not really run into too much trouble with this spell. One simple nerf I would put on it is Range: Touch, Not Self.

By not being able to make copies of themselves, it becomes more of a support buff rather than a self-buff.

No that is not how it works.
Imagine the team kidnaps the human BBEG.
Now there is a BBEG simulacrum working for the team high-jacking the BBEG organisation and with all the power of a bbeg(except the recharging abilities that it can use a limited number of times)
It just happens that generally the most convenient target is yourself or an ally but there is no guarantee the best target is a member of the party.

[Kurt Kurageous]

At least he is not using it on humanoid monsters that have special abilities not accessible to adventurers to try and break the game more with monster abilities.

My Count von Zarovitch laughs, "Yeeess of course not..."

[Sigreid]

Is that due to PCs not having enough time, enough gold, or just a gentleman's agreement?

Most likely because by that point everyone has tended to be rich and powerful enough that it would have been redundant. That and I play with friends and no one really wants to turn it into a Simulacra management game.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That and I play with friends and no one really wants to turn it into a Simulacra management game.

And this is the true intended "fix" for such abilities. And most others.

5e is not designed as a bullet-proof, use with anyone including people you don't trust, game. It's explicitly designed on a foundation of trust and mutual desire for mutual fun. It's designed, at its core, to be played with friends (or for the people you play with to become friends quickly). Convention play and even Organized Play are secondary, and should have their own specific rules for things. But the core system doesn't need a lot of those, because the fixes that work well for one group's needs aren't necessarily the fixes that work well for another's needs.

That doesn't mean that discussing how one would fix things for their own table, once they're a problem, is pointless. But it does mean that talk of things being globally broken or badly designed needs to be taken with a grain of salt in many cases.

[JLandan]

No that is not how it works.
Imagine the team kidnaps the human BBEG.
Now there is a BBEG simulacrum working for the team high-jacking the BBEG organisation and with all the power of a bbeg(except the recharging abilities that it can use a limited number of times)
It just happens that generally the most convenient target is yourself or an ally but there is no guarantee the best target is a member of the party.

Simulacrum would be exceedingly difficult to be convincingly used that way. There is no description in the spell that says it has the memories or personality of the original, just the statistics, and it must be controlled by the wizard through verbal commands. The simulacrum would have to make deception checks every time it interacted with his organization members. and it specifically lacks the ability to learn. Eventually it would get caught and the wizard would need to be nearby to micromanage it.

Because the spell is often used to copy the wizard himself, does not mean that is the only source to copy. The spell specifies humanoid or beast. By removing the wizard himself as a target, the spell is toned down greatly, and much of the common abuse is abated.

And yes, this is how it works.

[Psyren]

I mean, even without memories and personality, the statistics are bad enough. (In fact, you could argue that an obedient copy of the BBEG without their personality/memories is a feature.) Worse, they removed even the tenuous "half-level" limiter that the 3.5 version had, which is what prevented chaining back then, or at least pushed chaining to Epic levels.

I would love if the devs published some kind of blog or article on what they envisioned the expected or typical uses for this spell to be beyond merely prior edition nostalgia.

[JLandan]

I mean, even without memories and personality, the statistics are bad enough. (In fact, you could argue that an obedient copy of the BBEG without their personality/memories is a feature.) Worse, they removed even the tenuous "half-level" limiter that the 3.5 version had, which is what prevented chaining back then, or at least pushed chaining to Epic levels.

I would love if the devs published some kind of blog or article on what they envisioned the expected or typical uses for this spell to be beyond merely prior edition nostalgia.

To prevent chaining, I would rule that the Simulacrum is the same as the original at the time of casting, which means the 7th level slot is spent. An 8th or 9th slot might be used, if the wizard is 15th plus or the second 7th at Wizard 20, but really that might be better spent. i might also rule that since the spell was prepped from the same spellbook, the simularum is casting the same spell again therefore destroying itself.

[Psyren]

Even if you prevent chaining though, you're still spending one 7th-level spell slot to double your 6th, 8th, and 9th-level slots (on top of all the others). That's if you cast it 1/day. For most adventuring days that's a no-brainer, especially if you have nothing better to spend the gold on (which, by that level, is highly unlikely). Never mind the fact that it doubles your concentration to boot.

I think the 3.5 version, where the resulting duplicate of you would be a half-caster, would be much more reasonable in 5e.

[sithlordnergal]

I basically only use the AL rules for Simulacrum. I.E

- You can only have one Simulacrum at a time

- Wish related stresses are passed onto the caster of Simulacrum


Outside of that, I prefer to use Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Field, and Counterspell.

[Toadkiller]

Maybe once in a great while the simulacrum decides it’s the original? Gets hit by a critical hit- makes a roll. Fails against a charm (or maybe succeeds?) - makes a roll. Maybe on a 1 it becomes self aware. It will almost never happen that it breaks free and decides to take over. But it could happen. It’s also smart, it might not tell you right away that it’s free. If it does turn on you it has the brains to do so in a problematic way.

The risk is small, but it accumulates the longer the copy lasts. So the smart thing to do is reboot it frequently - which costs resources. I don’t know that this is a great idea - but I’d play in a game like this.

[KorvinStarmast]

To prevent chaining, I would rule that the Simulacrum is the same as the original at the time of casting, which means the 7th level slot is spent. An 8th or 9th slot might be used, if the wizard is 15th plus or the second 7th at Wizard 20, but really that might be better spent. i might also rule that since the spell was prepped from the same spellbook, the simularum is casting the same spell again therefore destroying itself. Bards don't use spell books. Using magical secrets to get the Wish/Sim set up gives bards an escape from your constraint. :smallcool:

It occurs to me that the only way a Sorcerer can do the wish/sim cheese is to get an item or a scroll that has wish on it, and use that wish to cast simulacrum on themselves when they have all of their spell slots - then off they go unless the loophole is closed (use AI rules).

Warlocks (Genie) can use wish to cast simulacrum. I guess they'd have to wait a day or two before going full up on spell slots / mystic arcanum to get the cheese going.

[DarknessEternal]

How is this thread longer than: Ban the spell.

[Eldariel]

How is this thread longer than: Ban the spell.

The spell is iconic and fun. It's an extremely common trope to have the clone/copy of the hero sent to deal with the hero and this spell does that pretty well. Fluff-wise there's definitely a good reason for it to exist, but unfortunately it's not in line with the other options power-wise.

[Psyren]

I think it can still be "iconic and fun" while also being toned down considerably.

For example, a half-caster version of you can still do things like counterspell and dispel on your behalf, concentrate on various spells (including powerful ones like Polymorph or Hypnotic Pattern), and even be an extra frontliner in a gish build like a Bladesinger.

And if you want the BBEG to be able to send a full-power version of the hero against himself, Volrath-style, that's fine - just make it villain plot magic instead of the standard version of the spell available to players.

[Eldariel]

I think it can still be "iconic and fun" while also being toned down considerably.

For example, a half-caster version of you can still do things like counterspell and dispel on your behalf, concentrate on various spells (including powerful ones like Polymorph or Hypnotic Pattern), and even be an extra frontliner in a gish build like a Bladesinger.

And if you want the BBEG to be able to send a full-power version of the hero against himself, Volrath-style, that's fine - just make it villain plot magic instead of the standard version of the spell available to players.

I think I'd like for PCs to be able to do it too: copy BBEG and sic it at them. I run the half-version myself because of balance concerns, but I feel there's room for something Ice Assassin like. The thing is, it can't be controllable. If it's controllable, it is too powerful. It would have to be a full copy of the enemy or have something like "It can only be controlled if it only uses half of its power; letting it act freely lets it use more power"-kind of thing. I've been pondering the best way to implement something like that but for now I'm kinda happy with the 3e Simulacrum.

[DarknessEternal]

The spell is iconic and fun. It's an extremely common trope to have the clone/copy of the hero sent to deal with the hero and this spell does that pretty well.

Name 10 times it happens in a fantasy D&Dish setting then if it's so common.

Illusions are common. Clones aren't.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I think I'd like for PCs to be able to do it too: copy BBEG and sic it at them. .

I agree with this.
The issue with Simulacrum is when the PC Wizard can routinely, expand their spell slots and prepared spells by having a Simulacrum spell battery with them on their Adventuring day.

Kidnapping a foe, keeping them restrained during the casting of Simulacrum, and then inserting the PC's Sleeper Agent amongst their foes, that is pure, plain fun..and much harder to do compared to making a Simulacrum battery.

[JNAProductions]

I'd definitely ban Simulacrum as a spell you can just learn at level-up. It's significantly out-of-whack with other spells, notably in that it gives a HUGE benefit tomorrow for a cost today.

Allowing it as some kind of complex, limited ritual would be fine-if the players have a cunning plan that would be vastly aided by Simulacrum, let them research it and find a way to do it. Let the bad guy have one or two.

But it's far too strong as a "We've got some spare cash and a week off-let's double the entire party."

[kingcheesepants]

It's interesting to see the diversity of opinion here. It looks like 4/5 of my main solutions to the problem have adherents (nobody seems to think that limiting the gold/downtime is a good idea and I agree that it seems a bit foolish). Some folks just accepting the spell as it is and opting to give all the non wizard characters additional magic items and such in order to bring the whole party up to where the simulacrum using wizard is. Some deciding to utilize more anti magic foes, some banning it and some proposing a variety of nerfs.

In regards to the number of people proposing nerfs to limit chaining and wish abuse are those problems that you've actually had to deal with? Or are you guys just nipping a potential problem before it shows up?

To those who ban the spell outright, have you had any particularly bad experiences with it that made you not want to bother using it? Or was it just a general sense that the spell is too strong and you don't want to fiddle around with nerfs?

[Eldariel]

Name 10 times it happens in a fantasy D&Dish setting then if it's so common.

Illusions are common. Clones aren't.

Name 10 times a Paladin smites a demon in D&Dish fantasy settings. 10 is a lot and I'm not gonna bother going through all the books and adventures and such for something so entirely pointless as this. That said, off the top of my head:
- The Drizzt Homeland books involve his father's copy (could easily be modelled as a Simulacrum) attacking Drizzt.
- Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk includes a simulacrum that's basically pulling the strings around a God Trap incident and some of the movers of Greyhawk. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of modules with a similar story, weaponized Simulacrums and such.
- It happens a lot in a lot of media (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MirrorUniverse): Mirrors of Opposition, Birth Clones and such exist in D&D too, to much the same effect; and they too show up in plenty of stories.

[Psyren]

In regards to the number of people proposing nerfs to limit chaining and wish abuse are those problems that you've actually had to deal with? Or are you guys just nipping a potential problem before it shows up?

It's the latter for my group, though the fact that these rulings have been made official by AL suggests that it was the former for somebody (and likely many somebodies) at some point. For a format that's involved more high-level games than I'm likely to participate in in my lifetime, I don't mind a bit of a pre-emptive strike on their recommendation.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's the latter for my group, though the fact that these rulings have been made official by AL suggests that it was the former for somebody (and likely many somebodies) at some point. For a format that's involved more high-level games than I'm likely to participate in in my lifetime, I don't mind a bit of a pre-emptive strike on their recommendation.

Mine formally went into play when a player talked to me about the issue when they were reaching the levels where they wanted to use it. Before that, I'd had basic setting-based ideas of things I wanted to do, but never formally implemented.

[tokek]

Another suggestion - use the approach the took with Create Magen and make it cost permanent HP to cast.

Its an iconic spell but really its the throwaway culture around them that I think stretches the game too far - burn their spell slots then just make another.

[noob]

Another suggestion - use the approach the took with Create Magen and make it cost permanent HP to cast.

Its an iconic spell but really its the throwaway culture around them that I think stretches the game too far - burn their spell slots then just make another.
It would make necromancers more popular which is neat.

[sithlordnergal]

In regards to the number of people proposing nerfs to limit chaining and wish abuse are those problems that you've actually had to deal with? Or are you guys just nipping a potential problem before it shows up?

Ehh, I'm just copying the AL rules. They tend to have decent rulings for spells like that

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd definitely ban Simulacrum as a spell you can just learn at level-up. It's significantly out-of-whack with other spells, notably in that it gives a HUGE benefit tomorrow for a cost today. *frowns* Bards get spells from Magical Secrets. Any spell from any class. :smalltongue:

My DM and I discussed simulacrum before I chose it, and after I chose it. (That would be in ref to Phoenix's post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25383426&postcount=42)). Maybe working with one's players is worth the effort.

[Falrexion]

It's a more serious nerf when you start planning to upcast it, but at my table simulacrum can't have slots of 7th level or higher. You still double up on all 1st-6th level slots so basically another 12th level caster but no ability to chain it or get access to the really high level spells that are mostly balanced around 1 casting a day.

[Ortho]

I've DMd games where players made use of Simulacrum and I've been a player who used Simulacrum. I really love the flavor of the spell and I think it's super cool. However that being said it's a really strong spell, like honestly even for a 7th level spell with a 12 hour casting time and expensive material components it's way too good. Even if you don't do any exploits to abuse it it's still running around giving the wizard a 2nd concentration slot and doubling their spell output and effectively giving them advantage on every skill check. I don't want to ban the spell and I don't generally like nerfing things but I feel like something needs to be done. I've got a few ideas.

1. More anti-magic enemies. Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Anti-magic field. Just making things more difficult for our wizard.

2. Soft ban of spell by limiting time/gold and making it more difficult to cast. If they don't have 12 hours to sit around casting spells and/or the money then they can't get new simulacrum.

3. Nerfing the spell. Maybe make it have a duration of 1 day or 8 hours rather than until dispelled. Or make it so that it can't do anything unless you use a bonus action to command it. Or some other nerf that will allow the spell to be used but make it more in line with other spells of that level.

4. Just ban it. No spell, no problem (complaining wizards not withstanding).

5. Just accept it. The wizard is crazy strong, that's just part of the game. And In the words of V "It's not as if it's our (casters) fault that they (non casters) chose a class not capable of doing everything".

So what do you guys think, how should I deal with simulacrum going forward and what do you do?

My solution is to change the spell so the simulacrum can't regain any resources. And you can only have 1 simulacrum of you at a time. And if it casts any spells that require a... sacrifice, for lack of a better term, on the caster's part - like Create Homunculus or Wish - the cost is transferred to the original caster.

[Molchmeister]

I really don't see the problem with a simulacrum it's a construct you would have to equip it and it can't attune to any items and you can't heal it in the field. The standard adventuring day would whittle it down before any boss/mini-boss battles if the encounters are built for appropriate level. As far as using a wish in combat it still needs spell components and it's buck-naked. My parties usually drag one along as an out of combat healer, or a tanker. My bard has one that he uses to do the performances around town to keep my reputation up, while I'm out adventuring, or actually on one occassion I played the simulacrum on an adventure, though the party wasn't happy.

[kingcheesepants]

I really don't see the problem with a simulacrum it's a construct you would have to equip it and it can't attune to any items and you can't heal it in the field. The standard adventuring day would whittle it down before any boss/mini-boss battles if the encounters are built for appropriate level. As far as using a wish in combat it still needs spell components and it's buck-naked. My parties usually drag one along as an out of combat healer, or a tanker. My bard has one that he uses to do the performances around town to keep my reputation up, while I'm out adventuring, or actually on one occassion I played the simulacrum on an adventure, though the party wasn't happy.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the simulacrum can't attune to items from. There isn't anything in either the spell description or the rules concerning attunement that suggests such a ruling. Though that is a potential nerf to the spell that makes it a tad more manageable. As for it being naked and needing components that is easily solved with 6 GP worth of items (a staff and common clothes) that most groups will already have spares of.

And sure a simulacrum doesn't regain HP or spells and thus is going to be out of resources by the end of an adventuring day. But you're still effectively doubling the caster's spell slots, concentration, action economy and skill checks for that day. Even if you're pretty liberal with your simulacrum's spells (though my experience with it suggests that it usually just uses a concentration spell at the beginning and then casts cantrips and defensive spells the rest of the time) and are completely out by the time you reach the boss, even just an extra cantrip and ritual caster is pretty useful.

What do you mean by a tanker? Having a simulacrum serve as a tank for the group seems like it'd be close to the worst use of the spell since it has half the HP of whatever it's copying and can't regain HP. Having it cast out of combat healing spells is fine but if it's not using some concentration spells for you all in combat you are not utilizing it to its fullest.

[LudicSavant]

How is this thread longer than: Ban the spell.

Because unlike some overpowered stuff, it’s iconic and fun, a D&D classic that’s led to all kinds of unique and memorable stories. If you ban Gift of Alacrity or Silvery Barbs, nobody cares because those weren’t adding anything narratively to the game. They mostly just made you better at stuff you already do.

If you ban something like Animate Dead, however, people might care because animating dead is something a lot of people fundamentally want D&D to do.

Therefore folks might be interested in making the extra effort to patch rather than simply ban it, aiming to retain the stuff it adds to the experience, while reining in what it can detract.


The spell is iconic and fun. It's an extremely common trope to have the clone/copy of the hero sent to deal with the hero and this spell does that pretty well. Fluff-wise there's definitely a good reason for it to exist, but unfortunately it's not in line with the other options power-wise.

Yep, that.