Illithid Extraction at 3rd level - now what?

[Particle_Man]

So my DM allows both two flaws and a bonus feat at first level. I think that means that a psychic warrior could get the illithid extraction feat by 3rd level. So assuming I stick with psychic warrior, what are good feats/powers to take. Improved Grapple, Expansion and Grip of Iron seem like good ideas. Any other way to increase the odds on the brain eating strategy?

I guess an alternative is Flayerspawn Psychic, but I dunno, I kind of like the idea of sticking with psychic warrior if I can make it work. Maybe Grip of Iron makes up for the lower BAB and fewer powers? If I did take Flayerspawn Psychic would the maximum power level of new powers still increase, or would I only gain lower level powers than if I stuck with psychic warrior?

[daremetoidareyo]

You gotta get good at grappling

[Doctor Despair]

I. Extraction is good to use on allies. Have a party member take a dip in Binder to recover the int damage, and get infinite temporary pp. Use Bestow Power to convert it into actual pp.

You can also use Larval Flayers to get things to summon to drain temporary pp to Bestow Power into actual pp

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fiend of possession or ghost savage progression. Inhabit a minion and have it explode into tentacles when you do so.

Leadership, thrallherd, or psionic dominate are preferred but not strictly necessary.

[Morphic tide]

You could dip Totemist 2 for its usual Grapple setup, and I happen to have made a build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632244) trying to push this subsystem pair to its Grappling limit, doubling down on the disregarding of BAB. Hard feats are not strictly needed with the Grapple bonus that arises, and at Soul Manifester 8 you get the Arms Chakra to get Improved Grapple out of Totem Avatar. Also means permanent Claws or a Bite for Powers, with one of them letting you deal conventional damage if dealing with Mindless enemies that don't care about Extract.

[Seward]

When I saw the title I had a flashback to my very first long running D&D campaign, when an illithid encounter at about level 4 involved a brain extraction on the paladin, who held off the pursuit while the 3 survivors of a 7 person party jumped through a one-way portal. The last thing we saw was his brain removed......

So I thought you'd experienced something similar only at 3rd level.

That trauma has lasted over 40 years. Thanks for that :)

That party stayed 3 people and did pretty well after they found their way back to the Prime Material. But they stayed the hell away from Illithid, while being willing to face any other challenge, including Tomb of Horrors. Somewhere out there is a 3-4th level illusionist that was a vampire thrall, the only party member we left behind while fleeing a vampire just before that ill fated encounter who probably survived (undead being immune to most psychic attacks and having a powerful boss). We didn't return to the same prime material plane, so we never found out what happened to that guy.

AD&D was untiered - if you wandered into the wrong place you could encounter stuff WAY out of your league. Scouting was something we learned to do after that adventure.

I don't think I'd have ever imagined back then people would be optimizing PCs around the brain extraction ability. Heh. Just be aware you will traumatize your enemies who survive.

[Particle_Man]

It is hard to pull off in a situation where I couldn’t simply kill/coup de gras enemies anyhow. I mean either they are stunned or they are furiously resisting a grapple while their friends beat on me - and it will take a while to get their int down to 0 even after a successful set of four grapples.

So you could say that this is more about flavour.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It is hard to pull off in a situation where I couldn’t simply kill/coup de gras enemies anyhow. I mean either they are stunned or they are furiously resisting a grapple while their friends beat on me - and it will take a while to get their int down to 0 even after a successful set of four grapples.

So you could say that this is more about flavour.You need to be a grappling beast. So do it literally. My suggestion for possessing others (preferably others with abilities eminently suited for grappling) and having them explode into tentacles due to now having your Illithid Heritage feats in their bodies would make you significantly better than most at this kind of thing. Of course, metamorphosis would help as well, but you'd have to actually manifest it.

Still, I do love the Lovecraftian horror vibe that comes from being a creepy alien ghost thing that possesses and corrupts others.

[Particle_Man]

I just came up with a horrific in-game justification for taking the Jack-of-all-Trades feat later on.

[Seward]

I just came up with a horrific in-game justification for taking the Jack-of-all-Trades feat later on.

hehehehe.

One of my Pathfinder Oracles had a Brain Drain power, which is sort of detect thoughts but does damage to the person and feels like you are ripping memories out of their head. Over the course of playing him from L1-15, I made a list of everybody he did that to. He's got memories of a succubus, an imprisoned god, a gibbering mouther, a rare ooze that was actually intelligent, among some of his more disturbing things. He wasn't a knowledge monkey, (he faked massive Kn Local skill by doing astrological predictions when he entered an area. He knew that a red-headed merchant whose name sounded like Marlin would matter and could be found at 3PM on Thursday....that sort of thing...or used his divination skill to open a history book to the one passage that would matter for a region. He was so good at divination as a hammer to any information problem that he was very lazy about actually learning anything) so he didn't really make use of those memories for anything but disturbing comments from time to time, outside the immediate time when the info was plot-relevant.

I hope your party appreciates your character. I'm enjoying hearing about the concept a lot.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe you should find a pseudonatural critter to possess, so you can make it explode into a huge, writhing mass of tentacles at an opportune time. Really freak out your party and any NPCs that happen to be nearby.

[Particle_Man]

Fiend of possession or ghost savage progression. Inhabit a minion and have it explode into tentacles when you do.

I just want to make sure on this one. Do things you possess suddenly explode into face tentacles? Would metamorphosis into a giant cause that new form to also sprout face tentacles? Is there an faq or ruling on this that unambiguously spells it out?

I mean I like the idea but would like something to show a DM that thinks that you would not get the face tentacles in the borrowed or new form, respectively.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I just want to make sure on this one. Do things you possess suddenly explode into face tentacles? Would metamorphosis into a giant cause that new form to also sprout face tentacles? Is there an faq or ruling on this that unambiguously spells it out?

I mean I like the idea but would like something to show a DM that thinks that you would not get the face tentacles in the borrowed or new form, respectively.You still have the feat(s) and still qualify for the feat(s), so you'd still gain the benefits of the feat(s), even if you're in a new body or a new form. Not sure why you wouldn't, by RAW.

Would you lose Power Attack if you inhabited a frost giant? Not sure why you'd lose any other feats you retain the prereqs for.

[Seward]

Would you lose Power Attack if you inhabited a frost giant? Not sure why you'd lose any other feats you retain the prereqs for.

You would be unable to make use of "weapon spec greatsword" if you were wildshaped into (or possessed) a horse. (although Tangled Disney film might argue that a paladin-horse with martial weapon proficiency can wield a sword with his teeth, that's high concept for most GMs). A warshaper could grow hands maybe in the wildshape case, but barring a power that mutates the form of the possessed body, that's a stretch.

Likewise using a bardic music class feature might be challenging if your only perform skill is sing and you're in a form that has no mouth.

The argument is that if you lack the limbs that enable a feat when in another form, you might not be able to do the feat.

I don't know how I'd land on this issue. It would probably depend on the fluff of the possession ability at my table. Expect table variation so ask your GM before depending on this tactic in a possessed form. Ditto Metamorphosis. My instinct would be yes to the latter and no to the former, but it really depends what is going on with those abilities, beyond pure game mechanics.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You would be unable to make use of "weapon spec greatsword" if you were wildshaped into a horse. (although Tangled Disney film might argue that a paladin-horse with martial weapon proficiency can wield a sword with his teeth, that's high concept for most GMs).

Likewise using a bardic music class feature might be challenging if your only perform skill is sing and you're in a form that has no mouth.

The argument is that if you lack the limbs that enable a feat when in another form, you might not be able to do the feat.The feats give you limbs. A feat that grants a prehensile tail would still give you a tail, even if you wild shaped, polymorphed, metamorphosis'd, etc. You're not losing the benefits of feats that use part of your physical form that you no longer have; you're keeping feats that grant you those parts.

[Seward]

The feats give you limbs.

Oh, ok. Yeah, you do get tentacle-face then on a metamorphosis form for sure. Same principle as a master of many forms able to speak in any form, or a warshaper spawning a stinger in any form.

A possessed form is still an edge case.

Does a dragon disciple who possesses somebody with magic jar get force claws and teeth to grow on the victim just because his class feature gives it to him in his base form? No. Ghosts can't use most of their ghost capabilities when possessing a victim. Etc.