Examining Phantom Steed: better in a fight than I thought?

[Segev]

The spell creates a creature that, other than its speed, explicitly uses the riding horse stat block. This gives it, among other things, 13 hit points. It also says the following:

"When the spell ends, the steed gradually fades, giving the rider 1 minute to dismount. The spell ends if you use an action to dismiss it or if the steed takes any damage."

Previously, I had read this as the horse vanishing if hit, but, in fact, it lasts for a minute after being hit. On the other hand, it does only have thirteen hit points, so it still can be knocked out/killed even if it's body doesn't vanish instantly and instead "gradually fades."

So it actually can take a hit without ending mid-combat, as long as the combat lasts less than a minute (as most do), but it also only has 13 hit points, so still "dies" if it takes that much, meaning one hit still likely removes your third level spell slot mount from the battle. Or your eleven minute casting time steed.

I still wish it had recasting to give it abilities it had at higher CL in 3e. I also question those who tout its 100 ft speed as a combat boon when it remains this fragile.

Is it perhaps meant to last 1 minute after taking damage without "dying" if it takes 13 or more?

[Trask]

I like your interpretation here simply because once you apply it the spell seems much better, as you said. Its really not a bad option if you really need a horse for this battle, which happens on occasion, enough to be useful in my experience.

[ender241]

Spells do what they say they do, nothing more. The phantom steed is a creature, and follows the same rules for what happens when a creature reaches 0 hit points because the spell doesn't say otherwise. So it starts to fade when it takes damage, but once it drops to 0 hit points it's dead. I think making the horse essentially invincible for a minute after taking damage would be too powerful anyway.

As for the 100 ft movement, it makes it quite useful for kiting. Remember that a controlled mount can dash with it's action and act during your turn. So you've basically got 200 ft of movement without losing any of your action economy or using concentration. Yes, it's brittle. But if you're able to ritual cast it ahead of time you're not even losing a spell slot.

And we haven't even touched on the utility of having easily accessible fast travel. Overall, a pretty nice spell.

[Segev]

Spells do what they say they do, nothing more. The phantom steed is a creature, and follows the same rules for what happens when a creature reaches 0 hit points because the spell doesn't say otherwise. So it starts to fade when it takes damage, but once it drops to 0 hit points it's dead. I think making the horse essentially invincible for a minute after taking damage would be too powerful anyway.

As for the 100 ft movement, it makes it quite useful for kiting. Remember that a controlled mount can dash with it's action and act during your turn. So you've basically got 200 ft of movement without losing any of your action economy or using concentration. Yes, it's brittle. But if you're able to ritual cast it ahead of time you're not even losing a spell slot.

And we haven't even touched on the utility of having easily accessible fast travel. Overall, a pretty nice spell.

I agree with most of this, though I think the brittleness is being understated here as losing your mount if you're at all counting on it can be pretty fatal.

The part I disagree with is the utility for fast travel. I know that's what it's designed for, but if you have a party of 4 PCs, you need to stop for 44 minutes out of every hour to summon enough phantom steeds to carry them. At 5 party members (including potential NPCs), you basically can't get anywhere.

This is mitigated if your DM will let you cast a ritual spell while riding; in that case, you can be constantly casting except for about five minutes every hour and keep 5 phantom steeds going more or less constantly. But you're not doing anything but chanting ritual spell words and concentrating on that the entire time, so better hope you're not needed for anything else. And it still takes about an hour to get all 5 steeds up and ready to go, leaving you with JUST enough time to cast it again to replace the first one on the way. So every 11 minutes or so, you're stopping so that one of the party members can dismount and mount a new phantom steed.

It's incredibly awkward. If it's meant for fast travel, it really should have an eight hour duration.

[Dr.Samurai]

Despite the spell saying The creature uses the statistics for a riding horse... I honestly don't think the Steed is meant to have 13hp. It is such a clunky mechanic to say The spell ends... if the steed takes any damage, but also it still has 13hp so it can be knocked unconscious if it takes enough damage before it completely fades away a minute later.

Effectively 1hp is very fragile for something that is supposed to last 1 hour. I really don't think you're supposed to consider the 13hp. I think you're supposed to use the Steed for travel, and if you wind up in an encounter before the hour is up, it's very likely the Steed will be gone before the full duration, but you can still use it through that encounter because it doesn't fade away instantly.

Remember, it's an illusion. You can't knock this creature unconscious with hit point damage. The spells tells us how these illusions break; the saddle, bit, and bridle vanish instantly if moved more than 10ft from the steed. The steed slowly fades in a minute after taking damage, but the rider can remain mounted in that time.

[ender241]

I agree with most of this, though I think the brittleness is being understated here as losing your mount if you're at all counting on it can be pretty fatal.


I agree and so I would not count on it lasting through combat. I certainly wouldn't build around it. I'm not going to take the mounted combatant feat to use with it, for instance. It shouldn't be viewed as necessary at all, but rather one more tool in the wizard's extensive toolbox.


The part I disagree with is the utility for fast travel. I know that's what it's designed for, but if you have a party of 4 PCs, you need to stop for 44 minutes out of every hour to summon enough phantom steeds to carry them. At 5 party members (including potential NPCs), you basically can't get anywhere.

This is mitigated if your DM will let you cast a ritual spell while riding; in that case, you can be constantly casting except for about five minutes every hour and keep 5 phantom steeds going more or less constantly. But you're not doing anything but chanting ritual spell words and concentrating on that the entire time, so better hope you're not needed for anything else. And it still takes about an hour to get all 5 steeds up and ready to go, leaving you with JUST enough time to cast it again to replace the first one on the way. So every 11 minutes or so, you're stopping so that one of the party members can dismount and mount a new phantom steed.

It's incredibly awkward. If it's meant for fast travel, it really should have an eight hour duration.


All fair points. It's probably more useful in that situation with a smaller party, or if it's a time that you feel comfortable splitting the party.

I'm not saying the spell is amazing. But I think it has decent value. I probably wouldn't take it as one of my spells learned through leveling up (partly just because there are so many solid level 3 spells) but given the opportunity to add it to my spellbook I would 100% spend the time and money to do it.

[ender241]

Despite the spell saying The creature uses the statistics for a riding horse... I honestly don't think the Steed is meant to have 13hp. It is such a clunky mechanic to say The spell ends... if the steed takes any damage, but also it still has 13hp so it can be knocked unconscious if it takes enough damage before it completely fades away a minute later.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't have 13 hp. The spell says to use the stat block for the riding horse, except for the speed. It says nothing about a different amount of hp or something different happening when it's reduced to 0 hp. Therefore, it has 13 hp and you follow the normal rules for a creature dropping to 0 hp. If you don't like the mechanics of how the fading away part interacts with the low hp, you can always change it at your table, but the RAW are clear.


Effectively 1hp is very fragile for something that is supposed to last 1 hour. I really don't think you're supposed to consider the 13hp. I think you're supposed to use the Steed for travel, and if you wind up in an encounter before the hour is up, it's very likely the Steed will be gone before the full duration, but you can still use it through that encounter because it doesn't fade away instantly.

Granting a mount with 100 ft speed that is invincible for 1 minute after first taking damage and doesn't use concentration wouldn't be a combat spell? I disagree completely. That would be a seriously powerful 3rd level combat spell.


Remember, it's an illusion.

No, it's a creature.


You can't knock this creature unconscious with hit point damage.

Where does it say that?


The spells tells us how these illusions break; the saddle, bit, and bridle vanish instantly if moved more than 10ft from the steed. The steed slowly fades in a minute after taking damage, but the rider can remain mounted in that time.

Yep, all of that is in the spell description so you're good there. But it doesn't say anything about treating the creature differently from every other creature when it's reduced to 0 hp, and therefore we shouldn't.

The spell might as well be called "summon really fast horse" because that's essentially all it does mechanically. But Phantom Steed sounds cooler 😀. The spell does what it says it does. Nothing more.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm not sure why it wouldn't have 13 hp.
Because it's virtually pointless. If 1hp worth of damage ends the spell, why do we care if it has 13hp? Why not end the spell when it reaches 0hp? Why not have it vanish instantly? Or the next round?

Why give it 13hp, then make the spell end after taking any amount of damage, but still exist for a whole minute longer?

The spell says to use the stat block for the riding horse, except for the speed. It says nothing about a different amount of hp or something different happening when it's reduced to 0 hp. Therefore, it has 13 hp and you follow the normal rules for a creature dropping to 0 hp. If you don't like the mechanics of how the fading away part interacts with the low hp, you can always change it at your table, but the RAW are clear.
Ah, one of those responses that pretends I didn't quote the RAW myself and am clearly giving my opinion despite what the RAW says... got it.

Granting a mount with 100 ft speed that is invincible for 1 minute after first taking damage and doesn't use concentration wouldn't be a combat spell? I disagree completely. That would be a seriously powerful 3rd level combat spell.
Sure, if you have the 1 minute to spare to cast it in the first place before combat.

You seriously think that the spell is too strong for combat so the fail safe they put in place is that instead of vanishing instantly it's going to take a minute to fade away? But don't worry it still has 13hp so your enemy can still try to take it down the traditional way too?

That's ridiculous. You can still use it in combat now and never have it targeted, so is it too powerful then too?

No, it's a creature.
An illusory creature. Quasi-real.

Where does it say that?
I said it.

Yep, all of that is in the spell description so you're good there. But it doesn't say anything about treating the creature differently from every other creature when it's reduced to 0 hp, and therefore we shouldn't.
As I said, I don't think the spell intended it to have 13hp, despite failing to mention it doesn't have 13hp.

Note also the difference between Phantom Steed and Simulacrum. The latter says The duplicate is a creature... and it can... be affected as a normal creature. It's also specifically a construct.

Phantom Steed lacks this language. We use the statistics for a riding horse because of carrying capacity and armor class/saving throws. But I believe that the last sentence is supposed to override any hp function.

The spell might as well be called "summon really fast horse" because that's essentially all it does mechanically. But Phantom Steed sounds cooler 😀. The spell does what it says it does. Nothing more.
That's your interpretation, yes. And thank you for sharing it.

[OvisCaedo]

RAW aside, I think the spell also just... wasn't really thought out that clearly in terms of what the intended purpose of the fading mechanic was by the designers.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/788792021825708032

...Including baffling claims of what some designers say "RAW" apparently is.

[TaiLiu]

It's incredibly awkward. If it's meant for fast travel, it really should have an eight hour duration.
100% agreed. It's almost like they didn't consider that a Wizard would have other party members when thinking it up.

[ender241]

Because it's virtually pointless. If 1hp worth of damage ends the spell, why do we care if it has 13hp? Why not end the spell when it reaches 0hp? Why not have it vanish instantly? Or the next round?

Why give it 13hp, then make the spell end after taking any amount of damage, but still exist for a whole minute longer?

Ah, one of those responses that pretends I didn't quote the RAW myself and am clearly giving my opinion despite what the RAW says... got it.

Sure, if you have the 1 minute to spare to cast it in the first place before combat.

You seriously think that the spell is too strong for combat so the fail safe they put in place is that instead of vanishing instantly it's going to take a minute to fade away? But don't worry it still has 13hp so your enemy can still try to take it down the traditional way too?

That's ridiculous. You can still use it in combat now and never have it targeted, so is it too powerful then too?

An illusory creature. Quasi-real.

I said it.

As I said, I don't think the spell intended it to have 13hp, despite failing to mention it doesn't have 13hp.

Note also the difference between Phantom Steed and Simulacrum. The latter says The duplicate is a creature... and it can... be affected as a normal creature. It's also specifically a construct.

Phantom Steed lacks this language. We use the statistics for a riding horse because of carrying capacity and armor class/saving throws. But I believe that the last sentence is supposed to override any hp function.

That's your interpretation, yes. And thank you for sharing it.

Seems like you're arguing for what you think RAI is more than RAW. And you may very well be right about some aspects of it. It's obvious from the above JC tweet that RAW doesn't match RAI in this case. But going strictly by RAW the steed has 13 hp and behaves like any other creature when it reaches 0 hp. Whether or not that makes sense is an entirely different discussion. I don't think arguing about that is going to be worthwhile though, as it's ultimately up to the DM and what makes sense to them. At the actual table I'm not going to argue with the DM if they don't run it RAW. Hell, as DM I might not even run it RAW. The spell probably needs errata'd either way.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The spell does what it says it does. Nothing more.

This old canard has long been a tiresome and inane statement, to me.
Conversational English is not an unambiguously clear method of communication.

For the Duration of the spell, one can ride the Phantom Steed. As soon as the Phantom Steed takes damage the spell ends.

What does that mean, exactly?

The Steed itself stays around for one minute for 'dismounting' but the spell itself has ended...which means the Steed is no longer moving since if the "spell does what it says it does and nothing more"..
.........Phantom Steed allows you to ride a fake horse...while the spell is active.

As soon as the Phantom Steed takes damage, the spell has ended.
Once the spell ends, one can not ride the Steed..one can only dismount the slowly, fading image of a horse.

This is, after all, what the Phantom Steed spells states.
Yet, your reading of the spell did not, seemingly, reach the same conclusion.

How is that difference of interpretation possible if "spells do what they say they do"?🃏

[Hael]

I still wish it had recasting to give it abilities it had at higher CL in 3e. I also question those who tout its 100 ft speed as a combat boon when it remains this fragile.?

The spell is amazing.. Even with 13 hp poof, and it scales amazingly well.

Its a ritual cast, that can be utilized while walking, so will be up for most combats (for free). Most mages will have high initiative, which lets them zoom in, cast, and then zoom out. So right from the getgo, its got amazing mechanical positional value. Even in dungeons (where the horse just has to deal with a few difficult terrains due to size limitations.

And think of it as an extra mirror image. At high lvls, anything that wastes its turn hitting an illusion is worth it. Hits can be 50+ damage

[Segev]

It's probably on the iffy side of things, and definitely something you want to ask your DM about, but I think I may have finally found a use for Malleable Illusions with phantom steed.

First off, let me quote Malleable Illusions, so we're all on the same page: "[W]hen you cast an illusion spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can use your action to change the nature of that illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion), provided that you can see the illusion."

Phantom steed is an illusion spell with a duration of one hour, which fits the bill of "1 minute or longer." Now, obviously, you could use Malleable Illusions to change the visual character of the steed, which already states, "You decide the creature's appearance," but would have it be fixed when you cast the spell. Malleable Illusions can let you make your dappled gray into a painted palomino, for instance.

But, if we take the spell literally and assume the quasi-real, horselike creatures has 13 hp due to having the stats of a riding horse, then we know that it can go down/die at 0 hp. However, the normal parameters of the spell include it being a healthy horse-like creature; Malleable Illusions can, arguably, change it back to its original, full-health, 13-hp condition as long as you can see the quasi-real, horselike corpse. It can't change that the spell is in the fade-out period, but....

And, no, the fact the spell has ended actually doesn't matter: Malleable Illusions says nothing about whether the spell is active or has ended; it cares only that you can see the illusion. Which you can, during the fade-out period. The only questionable bit is whether "I change it so it's uninjured and healthy" is a valid "nature of the illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion)" to which you can change it.

[Amnestic]

I disagree with the OP's premise.


For the duration, you or a creature you choose can ride the steed.

You can't ride something which has an ended duration. Once it's taken damage, the spell has ended, so no more riding. The minute to dismount is so you don't immediately fall prone from the phantom steed vanishing.


Because it's virtually pointless. If 1hp worth of damage ends the spell, why do we care if it has 13hp? Why not end the spell when it reaches 0hp? Why not have it vanish instantly? Or the next round?

There's some spells/effects that care about HP total, but the only one that's potentially relevant is Sleep.

It should also be noted that temp HP doesn't improve the survivability of the phantom steed at all, since it still counts as 'taking damage'. If your phantom steed has 50 temp HP and takes 1HP of damage, the spell ends, RAW.


100% agreed. It's almost like they didn't consider that a Wizard would have other party members when thinking it up.

With an 11 minute ritual cast time, a single caster can maintain 5 phantom steeds at once for their party, which is usually (but not always) enough.

[ender241]

This old canard has long been a tiresome and inane statement, to me.
Conversational English is not an unambiguously clear method of communication.

For the Duration of the spell, one can ride the Phantom Steed. As soon as the Phantom Steed takes damage the spell ends.

What does that mean, exactly?

The Steed itself stays around for one minute for 'dismounting' but the spell itself has ended...which means the Steed is no longer moving since if the "spell does what it says it does and nothing more"..
.........Phantom Steed allows you to ride a fake horse...while the spell is active.

As soon as the Phantom Steed takes damage, the spell has ended.
Once the spell ends, one can not ride the Steed..one can only dismount the slowly, fading image of a horse.



This is, after all, what the Phantom Steed spells states.

You're absolutely right (as is Amnestic)! I completely missed that. And this lines up with the JC tweet as well, so this all makes a lot more sense now. What is intended to happen when the steed reaches 0 hp is still up for debate, but it matters a whole lot less if you can't continue to ride it either way. The strict RAW reading still implies it goes down at 0 hp but it's certainly possible it's meant to just remain standing there, continuing to fade.

Either way, I think it remains a decent spell.


Yet, your reading of the spell did not, seemingly, reach the same conclusion.

How is that difference of interpretation possible if "spells do what they say they do"?🃏

Simple: I didn't read the full text closely enough 🙃. Look, I'm not saying that every spell/feature is written well enough that there's never room for ambiguity. Quite the opposite, actually. Sometimes RAW and RAI don't match. Sometimes there are several valid ways to interpret RAW. There's always going to be a lot left up to DM interpretation. But if the spell doesn't say "X is true" and the general rule is "Y is true" then the RAW means Y is still true. If the DM decides that doesn't make sense to them, or that they think the designers meant to say "X is true" and just didn't make it clear, then they for sure should change it. But it's important to understand and highlight the difference between the RAW, RAI, and house rules because players commonly expect RAW. That's all I'm trying to do here, is to get to what is RAW for this spell, so that others can have a better understanding (either to determine how to run the spell as a DM or to have proper expectations as a player). Thanks for pointing out the part I missed.

[Segev]

Frankly, if the only thing the "slow fade" does is give you standing stock-still quasi-solid horse, so you can dismount, then the spell is next to useless, since, as established, it's already of questionable utility for fast travel due to requiring you to be waving your hands in the air and chanting for 11 minutes to cast it, and doing so more-or-less constantly for a party of 4-5 people, which - barring very permissive DMs - may well preclude you from RIDING at 10-13 mph, since that usually requires that you not be bobbing about like a distracted cat on the horse's back.

Its combat utility is next to nil, despite the obvious benefits of 200 feet of movement per round, because there is no way you're keeping your mount from suffering one point of damage the first time something realizes it's letting you zip in and out. Its fast travel utility is extremely DM-dependent due to the mechanics that would enable it requiring a very generous reading of the rules to let you get more than an hour's travel at a time, with 11 minute breaks in between, if traveling alone, and longer breaks with less travel time between the more companions you have. And you're chanting and waving your arms about (best hope you're not trying to do this with any stealth) for 11-55 minutes every hour even WITH a generous DM who lets you do it while moving. Every 11-60 minutes, the whole group has to stop and let one of the traveling group dismount and mount a new horse, as well, which means pulling up and stopping.

It would be nice to know what the envisioned use case of this spell was when the designers were writing its 5e incarnation.

[Amnestic]

Either way, I think it remains a decent spell.

It's only main drawback in my eyes it's that, being third level, it's fighting against a lot of other decent third level options to take. I definitely think it's a solid pick though. If you're ever in a space large enough to ride a creature and have ten minutes of downtime you should be using it as much as possible for you and your allies, and it drastically cuts down on travel time if that's ever an issue.

It's fragile, but also incredibly replaceable.


Frankly, if the only thing the "slow fade" does is give you standing stock-still quasi-solid horse, so you can dismount, then the spell is next to useless, since, as established, it's already of questionable utility for fast travel due to requiring you to be waving your hands in the air and chanting for 11 minutes to cast it, and doing so more-or-less constantly for a party of 4-5 people, which - barring very permissive DMs - may well preclude you from RIDING at 10-13 mph, since that usually requires that you not be bobbing about like a distracted cat on the horse's back.

I disagree with the idea that ritual casting while riding requires a "very permissive DM" - unless they want to nerf all spellcasting while mounted, it shouldn't be a problem. Why would casting a spell (and/or concentrating on one) in the heat of combat while atop a horse be less while riding one on a country road? It wouldn't, so why then would you go out of your way to object to ritual casting phantom steed while riding?




Its combat utility is next to nil, despite the obvious benefits of 200 feet of movement per round, because there is no way you're keeping your mount from suffering one point of damage the first time something realizes it's letting you zip in and out.#

And by the time that has happened you will have had a number of rounds of free movement/disengaging, because unless you get a fireball dropped on you round 1 (possible, but certainly not every combat by any stretch) then chances are your horse - which can look entirely real - will not be the priority target. You will be, or your allies. And even if it does get attacked that's...fine? You lose half your movement dismounting that turn. Not the end of the world. It's pretty great, even, if the enemy attacked it rather than hit it with an AoE, since that's at least 1 (possibly more, though unlikely) attack that didn't go towards the party. It's an effective 1hp "body", but that "1hp" absorbs all the damage it takes.


Every 11-60 minutes, the whole group has to stop and let one of the traveling group dismount and mount a new horse, as well, which means pulling up and stopping.

Also this isn't the case. Dismounting and mounting take half your movement each. Person dismounts and remounts with no loss of speed whatsoever for the group when they do their horse hop.

Though frankly the idea that you're tracking specific 30ft increments in overland travel at 13mph is uh...unlikely?

[No brains]

Whether or not it can stand up to damage, one amusing thing about Phantom Steed is that it almost certainly qualifies as a recipient of Dragon's Breath. The Phantom Steed comes with a bit, which by definition means that it has a mouth, a prerequisite for the spell.

This means a Phantom Steed can run 50 feet in, hit some things at the end of the 15-foot cone, and then run back another 50 feet. That's a 65-foot range, beyond what many a melee creature can dash. Longstrider can also be used to escape from reach weapons. Whether or not it drops after 1 hit point, 13 hit points, or one minute of fading, it can potentially make its time count.

[Segev]

Thanks!

So, to compare it to 3.5/PF's version of the spell, in 3.PF the spell had a 1 hour per caster level duration, which was a minimum 5 hour duration at level 5 (or 4 hours at level 4 for a summoner, who got it as a 2nd level spell). No ritual casting in 3.PF, so it actually cost a spell slot, but the duration was long enough that you could get at least half a day's travel out of it. Admittedly, not great in a party, not until you got to higher level and could cast multiple of it, but it became far better once you had at enough spell slots to cast it for the whole party. At least it has fast travel utility, there!

Speaking of hp, it didn't end the moment it took damage. It instead had 11 hp for a summoner at 4th level, 12 hp for anybody else casting it at CL 5, and +1 hp for every caster level beyond that. This is practically "it ends when it takes damage," though, and the 18 AC it had was pretty easy to hit at these levels in Pathfinder/3.5.

It also was slower, at least until level 10, than a 5e phantom steed, coming in at 20 feet per two caster levels (why that instead of 10 feet per caster level, I don't know), and explicitly capping out at 100 feet at CL 10.

But then, it also got automatic upgrades as the CL advanced, too:
8th Level: The mount can ride over sandy, muddy, or even swampy ground without difficulty or decrease in speed.
10th Level: The mount can use water walk at will (as the spell, no action required to activate this ability).
12th Level: The mount can use air walk at will (as the spell, no action required to activate this ability) for up to 1 round at a time, after which it falls to the ground.
14th Level: The mount can fly at its speed with a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to your caster level.

So, by 10th CL, it is moving 100 feet/round and basically doesn't care about terrain.

Now, its fragility is such that it ends if combat happens around it, meaning it probably isn't ever useful in combat unless you have some sort of means of keeping it from getting hurt by those aiming to take it out from under you (let alone AoEs). But its fast travel utility was unquestionable, and you could theoretically ride it out of battle if one was sprung on you and you lucked into it not being whammied with damage from a CR-appropriate enemy in that ambush round. (100 feet of flight speed covers a LOT of ground.)

It was, I suppose, a pretty delicate spell in 3.PF, but at least its duration supported the fast travel use. I suspect the (ritual) tag is meant to let it do the same in 5e, but boy does the verisimilitude suffer in that image of how that really looks in play. If that truly is the intended use case, they probably should've given it an 8 hour duration, like they did mage armor. Water breathing got bumped all the way to 24 hours, and is also a 3rd level (ritual) spell! But I think 8 hours would've been enough to facilitate fast travel for a whole party, even a pretty big one, without being overkill.

And if it's actually meant to last in combat, that 1 minute HAS to permit you to keep riding it. At that point, its duration is "1 minute in combat, or an hour [or 8 hours, if modified as suggested] outside of combat," essentially, and it becomes a really powerful movement spell. If it doesn't "die" when it loses its 13 hit points, anyway. Or in the hands of an Illusionist with Malleable Illusions who can make it get back up.

As a side note, would it have made it too powerful to translate its earlier-edition buffs into a set of upcasts?

At higher levels. If you cast this spell using a 4th level or higher spell slot, the mount can ignore difficult terrain. If you cast this spell using a 5th level or higher spell slot, the mount is under the constant effect of the water walk spell. If you cast this spell using a slot of 6th level or higher, the mount is under the effects of a constant jump spell. If you cast this spell using a slot of 7th level or higher, the mount gains a flight speed equal to its walking speed.

[Pildion]

Frankly, if the only thing the "slow fade" does is give you standing stock-still quasi-solid horse, so you can dismount, then the spell is next to useless, since, as established, it's already of questionable utility for fast travel due to requiring you to be waving your hands in the air and chanting for 11 minutes to cast it, and doing so more-or-less constantly for a party of 4-5 people, which - barring very permissive DMs - may well preclude you from RIDING at 10-13 mph, since that usually requires that you not be bobbing about like a distracted cat on the horse's back.

Its combat utility is next to nil, despite the obvious benefits of 200 feet of movement per round, because there is no way you're keeping your mount from suffering one point of damage the first time something realizes it's letting you zip in and out. Its fast travel utility is extremely DM-dependent due to the mechanics that would enable it requiring a very generous reading of the rules to let you get more than an hour's travel at a time, with 11 minute breaks in between, if traveling alone, and longer breaks with less travel time between the more companions you have. And you're chanting and waving your arms about (best hope you're not trying to do this with any stealth) for 11-55 minutes every hour even WITH a generous DM who lets you do it while moving. Every 11-60 minutes, the whole group has to stop and let one of the traveling group dismount and mount a new horse, as well, which means pulling up and stopping.

It would be nice to know what the envisioned use case of this spell was when the designers were writing its 5e incarnation.

Honestly the only good way to use it might be with a cart. Just cast it once, everyone gets in and the horse pulls the cart. Then your only casting once an hour. For combat you use it to drop your big concentration spell then just run away and stay away. So its not always a good idea anyways as you might need to be in the fight for more then dropping one spell.

[Wasp]

It was recently pointed out to me that a Rogue Archer using steady aim from Tasha's can use Phantom Steed to keep some mobility and keep away from enemies event though they themselves aren't allowed to move. And that still seems very useful even if the mount is attacked and dies all the time.

[Segev]

It was recently pointed out to me that a Rogue Archer using steady aim from Tasha's can use Phantom Steed to keep some mobility and keep away from enemies event though they themselves aren't allowed to move. And that still seems very useful even if the mount is attacked and dies all the time.

I'd be interested in seeing the analysis of that last sentence.

That said, it's worth pointing out for an Arcane Trickster's sake that phantom steed is an illusion spell, so doesn't require special dispensation for them to learn. Thus it's something that rogue archer could theoretically provide for himself!

[Dr.Samurai]

I'd be interested in seeing the analysis of that last sentence.

That said, it's worth pointing out for an Arcane Trickster's sake that phantom steed is an illusion spell, so doesn't require special dispensation for them to learn. Thus it's something that rogue archer could theoretically provide for himself!
The Steady Aim/Phantom Steed combo was showcased on a Phantom Rogue specifically because their features don't require use of a bonus action, so it is free to use Steady Aim regularly while the Phantom Steed moves around.

[Segev]

The Steady Aim/Phantom Steed combo was showcased on a Phantom Rogue specifically because their features don't require use of a bonus action, so it is free to use Steady Aim regularly while the Phantom Steed moves around.

To be fair, if you're doing ranged archery, there's not much the Arcane Trickster uses his bonus action for, either.

[Dr.Samurai]

To be fair, if you're doing ranged archery, there's not much the Arcane Trickster uses his bonus action for, either.
True. I saw the build recently on a new video TreantMonk put out, showcasing a build a player brought to his table. I believe at higher levels, because the Phantom Rogue can add the necrotic damage to the target of their attack plus to another target, it ends up doing very high (or the highest) single target damage (because of Steady Aim+Elven Accuracy).

I don't think Arcane Trickster has a damage boost as a feature, but yes it can definitely take advantage of Steady Aim+Phantom Steed as well.

[Hael]

Regarding its use in combat. I rarely see it *not* used and not be effective and is one of the wizards best at will spells. Its worst use case is in tight spaces, where its basically a free, once per combat one hit damage sponge.

Its best use case basically makes the wizard (and multiple allies) untargetable, with better than monk movement.

Not every monster/enemy has the movement/range to clip one of these things, and its really not hard to maintain a permanent kite.

In practice, it usually means 2 or 3 rounds of amazing movement, and an enemy usually has to go out of their way to put themselves out of position to clip this thing to prevent the wizard from being invulnerable (note that dodge + shield spell makes this harder to hit than you might think with an ac10).

[Wasp]

I would say a ranged rogue with elven accuracy, especially an AT, should be able to make good use of that strategy if there is enough space.

And i would say even if it's only two or three rounds of mobility with triple advantage sneak attack and one enemy attack that's not aimed at a party - that could be worth it (without having done any actual play yet)

[Thunderous Mojo]

The Steady Aim/Phantom Steed combo was showcased on a Phantom Rogue specifically because their features don't require use of a bonus action, so it is free to use Steady Aim regularly while the Phantom Steed moves around.

How is the Phantom Steed exactly helping out here?

I would argue, that the value of high movement rate, is that it allows one to reasonably move through difficult terrain, or climb or swim.

A Light Riding Horse is not helping one to climb, or swim...the creature has a +3 STR modifier and no proficiencies of any kind.

A Phantom Steed is not much of an asset in a battle in an opera house, or in the Mines of Moria. If you are campaigning in the grasslands of Rohan...then sheer speed will mater.

[Dr.Samurai]

How is the Phantom Steed exactly helping out here?

I would argue, that the value of high movement rate, is that it allows one to reasonably move through difficult terrain, or climb or swim.

A Light Riding Horse is not helping one to climb, or swim...the creature has a +3 STR modifier and no proficiencies of any kind.

A Phantom Steed is not much of an asset in a battle in an opera house, or in the Mines of Moria. If you are campaigning in the grasslands of Rohan...then sheer speed will mater.
In order to use Steady Aim, you can't move. So the idea is a mounted Rogue is not moving themselves, but is able to aim steadily while atop a mount that is moving.

Instead of worrying about taking care of an actual horse and dealing with all that entails, the player opted for Ritual Caster and nabbing Phantom Steed. The big speed boost allows the rogue to move in, make a ranged sneak attack with Advantage, and then move back out again, presumably out of range of most creatures.

Of course, as you mention, you'll need space for this. Not a tactic that can be used all the time.

[tiornys]

Speaking of Treantmonk, he has just released a video discussing this spell.

https://youtu.be/IWrQAsHfNSI

tl/dw: ritual casting while riding is up to your DM, still useful for overland travel if you can't ritual cast while riding as long as you have two ritual casters with it (in a typical party), great mobility in combat until it gets tapped, once tapped it stops moving and is stationary for you to safely dismount as long as it's still alive, and if it's killed you are dismounted. Bonus discussion of mounted combat and initiative.

[Thunderous Mojo]

In order to use Steady Aim, you can't move. So the idea is a mounted Rogue is not moving themselves, but is able to aim steadily while atop a mount that is moving.

So the 'Build' rests upon a DM accepting a very technical reading of Steady Aim; ("Hey, DM, I'm not moving..the Steed is!!").

I'm not going to commit time to considering something that has a large percentage chance of failing from a DM saying "No" at Session 0.

Also, (again), any damage the Steed takes ends this spell...Horsey, No More Go Go. 🐎

A single Magic Missile defeats the 'build'.

[tiornys]

So the 'Build' rests upon a DM accepting a very technical reading of Steady Aim; ("Hey, DM, I'm not moving..the Steed is!!").

I'm not going to commit time to considering something that has a large percentage chance of failing from a DM saying "No" at Session 0.

Also, (again), any damage the Steed takes ends this spell...Horsey, No More Go Go. 🐎

A single Magic Missile defeats the 'build'.
The build isn't reliant on the phantom steed interaction, just taking advantage of it. There's always the option of just staying still with Steady Aim (at higher risk of being targeted) or using other forms of generating advantage.

[Dr.Samurai]

So the 'Build' rests upon a DM accepting a very technical reading of Steady Aim; ("Hey, DM, I'm not moving..the Steed is!!").
Correct, it operates on the assumption that Steady Aim is checking for a player character moving as part of their action, as opposed to being moved by something else.

I can kind of see it both ways. If you can imagine a rogue lining up a shot on a wagon as the horses are galloping, you can picture the rogue steadying themselves and aiming a shot even as the wagon is jostling around.

However, I think the intent is pretty clearly that the rogue is supposed to sacrifice mobility in order to get the Advantage.

I'm not going to commit time to considering something that has a large percentage chance of failing from a DM saying "No" at Session 0.
Makes sense.

Also, (again), any damage the Steed takes ends this spell...Horsey, No More Go Go. 🐎

A single Magic Missile defeats the 'build'.
Or a caltrop even...

[Amnestic]

A single Magic Missile defeats the 'build'.

Important to remember that the horse does not appear as anything other than what you choose it to be - meaning it can appear as a real riding horse. Is a caster going to shoot a single magic missile at what they think is a real horse? Unlikely, because one dart deals 1d4+1 damage and a real horse has 13 hit points, so they'd have to commit an average of four missiles to kill the "horse", and they have to commit to the missiles at the same time, no picking and choosing after each 'dart'. They would either ignore the horse or fully commit.

So is it worth it if your ritual cast horsey absorbs a creature's action and a 2nd level magic missile spell? I would say it's 100% worth that considering the investment you've made (11 minutes and a spell known/prepared).

This "unknown" factor does drop in value once it gets discovered, if your enemy is a group that shares information and the details spread, however. They will target it more frequently in the future if they know you make use of them.

[Segev]

Huh. Odd that that came up and almost touches on the exact same issues, just one day after I posted my thread. I swear I didn't know that video was coming!

One more thing to think about, though the answer is probably given in the form of flying DMGs aimed at one's head: given that Malleable Illusions lets you change the "nature" of the illusion as long as you can see it, could you change a damaged, ended, but still fading out phantom steed to an undamaged and therefore not ended one?

Interestingly, better than an Illusionist, an Abjurer who has Project Ward could throw his magical ward up to absorb damage incoming to his phantom steed. Unlike a lot of things, this isn't temp hp, and the protected creature doesn't take any of the damage that doesn't roll over after the ward is broken. So it's one way he could shield his horse from at least one attack per round, provided his arcane ward has sufficient hp. Any means of giving your steed full cover would also protect it. Not likely a feasible thing to do while riding it around, though.

[Corran]

True. I saw the build recently on a new video TreantMonk put out, showcasing a build a player brought to his table. I believe at higher levels, because the Phantom Rogue can add the necrotic damage to the target of their attack plus to another target, it ends up doing very high (or the highest) single target damage (because of Steady Aim+Elven Accuracy).
Sounds interesting.


I don't think Arcane Trickster has a damage boost as a feature, but yes it can definitely take advantage of Steady Aim+Phantom Steed as well.

It was recently pointed out to me that a Rogue Archer using steady aim from Tasha's can use Phantom Steed to keep some mobility and keep away from enemies event though they themselves aren't allowed to move. And that still seems very useful even if the mount is attacked and dies all the time.
Particularly good if you can count on it when you are using haste. Two attacks per turn round means you want to try and get advantage on both, which in turn means that you might need to rely on steady aim. The obvious drawback is that if you cannot move, you are more likely to get hit (as opposed to if you simply moved behind cover). And you dont want to get hit when using haste. Phantom steed bypasses steady aim's drawback when you might need it more, which coincidently is also when the drawback hurts the most.



One more thing to think about, though the answer is probably given in the form of flying DMGs aimed at one's head: given that Malleable Illusions lets you change the "nature" of the illusion as long as you can see it, could you change a damaged, ended, but still fading out phantom steed to an undamaged and therefore not ended one?
Does the duration end because the steed is "hurt"? I'd say yes. Assuming the answer to the previous question is a yes, is the duration restored if the steed is "healed". Not stated anywhere, so at best it's an ask the DM thing. It follows logically that it might, but then again this is magic and giving spells more power than what's already stated at them is iffy, or at least that's what some would say. It's a logical possibility though. I might be tempted to say yes just to reward the attention to detail. You could add it to your thread with illusion tricks, for completeness.



Interestingly, better than an Illusionist, an Abjurer who has Project Ward could throw his magical ward up to absorb damage incoming to his phantom steed. Unlike a lot of things, this isn't temp hp, and the protected creature doesn't take any of the damage that doesn't roll over after the ward is broken. So it's one way he could shield his horse from at least one attack per round, provided his arcane ward has sufficient hp. Any means of giving your steed full cover would also protect it. Not likely a feasible thing to do while riding it around, though.
Sounds legit. And very very situationally useful. Good to point it out though.

[Chronos]

So, RAW... If a wizard is riding a Phantom Steed, and the steed takes damage, where is the wizard? They're not dismounted yet, unless they choose to do so, because they have a minute to dismount. But they're also not riding it any more, because they can only do that during the duration, and the duration is ended. But if they're not riding, and they're not dismounted, then...?

[Dr.Samurai]

So, RAW... If a wizard is riding a Phantom Steed, and the steed takes damage, where is the wizard? They're not dismounted yet, unless they choose to do so, because they have a minute to dismount. But they're also not riding it any more, because they can only do that during the duration, and the duration is ended. But if they're not riding, and they're not dismounted, then...?
They are sitting atop a fading illusory horse that cannot move, apparently. It's a very important part of the spell and I am thankful the designers wrote that bit into it...

[Thunderous Mojo]

The build isn't reliant on the phantom steed interaction, just taking advantage of it. There's always the option of just staying still with Steady Aim (at higher risk of being targeted) or using other forms of generating advantage.

Why not go the mounted rogue route?
Mounted Combatant is not a terrible choice for a rogue:

Sabers=Rapiers
Uncanny Dodge helps the Rogue tank for their mount
At 7th level both rider and mount have Evasion.
Expertise

[Reach Weapon]

It would be nice to know what the envisioned use case of this spell was when the designers were writing its 5e incarnation.
I'm not sure, but I can't help but notice that Floating Disk is a 1st level, ritual spell with no speed limit and the ability to traverse and smooth out rough terrain, almost as if there were magic chariot fans involved somewhere in the process.

[Segev]

I'm not sure, but I can't help but notice that Floating Disk is a 1st level, ritual spell with no speed limit and the ability to traverse and smooth out rough terrain, almost as if there were magic chariot fans involved somewhere in the process.

I am not sure what you're getting at, here. Could you please elaborate?

[OvisCaedo]

I think the implication is that one could cast both Phantom Steed and Tenser's Floating Disc, and that other party members or such could ride on the disc and follow 20 feet behind the steed as if it were an attached cart. Though given the disc's 3 foot diameter size and 500 pound limit, I do not think you could fit a party on one. Even fitting two people might be difficult.

Though there's certainly other use cases for that combination, I'd think!

in Pathfinder (not sure about 3.5, but probably?) there was actually a one level higher spell called Phantom Chariot that worked pretty much the same as an individual steed but meant for party transport. Team of ghost horses and a ghost cart.

[Segev]

Ah. Tenser's floating disk has the same duration as phantom steed, though, so I am unsure the benefit of casting it instead of a second steed.

[Reach Weapon]

I am not sure what you're getting at, here. Could you please elaborate?
Sorry; just that the smoother ride would be more conducive to ritual casting (although at speed you may end up needing some sort of harness or frame). To work, you'd need a second caster, a ring of spell storage, or similar to rig the disk to the steed.

[Segev]

Sorry; just that the smoother ride would be more conducive to ritual casting (although at speed you may end up needing some sort of harness or frame). To work, you'd need a second caster, a ring of spell storage, or similar to rig the disk to the steed.

Ah. Yeah, that might help, there, but also, yeah, you'll need a second caster, and HE will need to somehow also be on the ever-so-smooth floating disk type ride, or you'll have to stop for 10 minutes out of every hour for him to recast, even if the phantom steed caster is able to keep them all up on the move.

[Reach Weapon]

Part of the reason I ended up being vague was that there were so many ways to skin this cat (with various trade-offs) that I didn't want to be prescriptive regarding the solution.

As the disk is a first level spell, I could see just burning some slots.
As the disk just ends, I could see putting up with the routine stops as part of a reasonable safety measure.
As the ring of spell storage solution does not require components (which would generally include the somatic ones) and explicitly does not rely on the disk caster's abilities, the jostling and such while casting from the back of the steed should not be issues.

[Chronos]

If we're bringing Floating Disk into this...

Gnome wizard casts Floating Disk.
Half-orc barbarian ties gnome wizard to the end of a 25-foot-pole.
Half-orc barbarian sits on disk.
Half-orc barbarian uses pole to hold gnome in front of disk.

[Willowhelm]

If we're bringing Floating Disk into this...

Gnome wizard casts Floating Disk.
Half-orc barbarian ties gnome wizard to the end of a 25-foot-pole.
Half-orc barbarian sits on disk.
Half-orc barbarian uses pole to hold gnome in front of disk.

With no listed speed limits.

[Reach Weapon]

If we're bringing Floating Disk into this...

Gnome wizard casts Floating Disk.
Half-orc barbarian ties gnome wizard to the end of a 25-foot-pole.
Half-orc barbarian sits on disk.
Half-orc barbarian uses pole to hold gnome in front of disk.
With no listed speed limits.
Perhaps this is calibrated to my usual playgroups, but while the chariot is a novel twist on a usage from the disk's spell description, "carroting" the "immobile" disk is the sort of exploit that could get teased apart like an overly ambitious wish spell...
"Nice" failures to such attempts are possible, but sometimes the universe just instantaneously accelerates the contraption into the nearest obstruction (a terminal limitation on speed).

[Jathaan]

If we're bringing Floating Disk into this...

Gnome wizard casts Floating Disk.
Half-orc barbarian ties gnome wizard to the end of a 25-foot-pole.
Half-orc barbarian sits on disk.
Half-orc barbarian uses pole to hold gnome in front of disk.

Inspiration for creativity, followed by a dungeon where all the rooms and hallways have a 2’ high ceiling, and hallways no more than 4’ wide.

[Segev]

Tangent, but if I ever play a gnome wizard, I am totally going to have the floating disk hover over his head. May or may not be able to talk the DM into it providing cover, but it certainly should make it easy to hide if I want to pose as a table or something by draping a cloth over it!