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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next How drastically imbalanced are these? Fighter Stances, v2.



PhoenixPhyre
2022-02-28, 11:55 PM
All fighters learn to enter stances at level 5 and learn all stances. Entering a stance requires a bonus action that can only be taken if you’re not in a stance. Once you leave a stance, you can’t re-enter that stance until you finish a long or short rest. Each stance provides a passive benefit and an active ability you can use; using that ability ends the stance after it completes.

Stances improve when you reach 9th level as a Fighter, granting the Improved effect, which stacks with the passive (except in the case of ones granting expertise, which replace the passive instead).

Athlete
Passive: The distance you can jump is doubled.
Improved: You gain a swimming and climbing speed equal to your walking speed.
Active: You can jump a vertical or horizontal distance equal to 4 times your Strength score, even if this is in excess of your normal speed (although movement is used as normal). You do not take falling damage when you land, no matter the distance fallen.

Arrowstorm
Requires wielding a ranged weapon
Passive: You can re-roll any damage roll on a ranged weapon attack, but no more than once per turn.
Improved: Once on your turn when you make a ranged attack roll and miss, you can immediately make another ranged attack against a different creature within your weapon’s unmodified normal range.
Active: All enemies of your choice within your weapon’s normal range must make a Dexterity saving throw against a DC of 8 + your weapon attack bonus. On a failed save, they take damage as if they’d been hit by an attack from your weapon and the arrow hobbles them, reducing their speed by 15 feet until they take an action to remove the arrow. On a success, they take half as much damage and are not hobbled.

Dervish
Requires a melee weapon in each hand.
Passive: While in this stance, you can make one attack with the TWF bonus action for every attack you can make with the Attack Action.
Improved: If you hit the same target with an attack from both the Attack Action and the TWF bonus action, the target takes an additional die of the weapon damage from the TWF attack. This extra damage can only be dealt to a single target once per turn.
Active: As an action, make a melee weapon attack with each weapon against all creatures within your reach. These attacks are made at advantage and if they hit, deal damage as if they had been hit by attacks from both your weapons.

Diplomat
Passive: You have proficiency with Charisma (Persuasion) checks.
Improved: You have expertise with Charisma (Persuasion) checks.
Active: When you make a Charisma check in a social situation and the other party is not already friendly, you can treat them as being friendly for the purposes of that check. You retain the passive benefit of this stance for the duration of the check.

Inquisitive
Passive: You have proficiency with Intelligence (Investigation) checks and Wisdom (Perception) checks.
Improved: You have expertise with Intelligence (Investigation) checks and Wisdom (Perception) checks.
Active: When you roll initiative with this stance active, you can expend the stance to make you and allies of your choice within 20’ immune to being surprised. When you do so, roll initiative as normal. Before the first turn of combat, all affected creatures can choose to use any of the initiative values rolled by the affected creatures. This choice is in effect for the duration of the combat.

Mountain Break
Passive: You ignore the damage threshold of objects when you attempt to break them.
Improved: You deal maximum damage when you hit objects with a weapon attack.
Active: As an action, choose an object within your reach. Make a melee attack roll against it. On a hit, the object breaks if it is Large or smaller or is a segment of wall no larger than 10x10x5. Larger objects take damage as if you’d scored a critical hit instead (including the bonus from the passive portions).
Alternatively, you can target a solid construct of force such as a wall of force or forcecage. Treat it as an object with AC 15. On a hit, the caster must make a Constitution saving throw against a DC of your attack roll. On a failed save, the construct of force dissipates.

Punisher
Requires wielding a melee weapon with the heavy property
Passive: When you miss with a melee weapon attack, the target takes damage (of the weapon’s damage type) equal to your Strength modifier.
Improved: Enemies cannot benefit from abilities and spells that increase their armor class (such as shield or parry) against your attacks.
Active: When you make a melee weapon attack, you can declare it to be a critical hit instead of rolling the attack roll. The damage dealt by this special critical hit is maximized.

Shielding Bulwark
Requires a wielded shield
Passive: You provide ¾ cover instead of ½ cover to allies.
Improved: You gain ¾ cover against ranged attacks and effects that require Dexterity saving throws and cause half damage on a success.
Active: When an enemy misses you with a melee attack or begins casting a spell with verbal or somatic components within 5 feet of you, you use your reaction to make a melee attack with your shield as if it were a martial weapon (1d6 bludgeoning) with which you are proficient. If it hits, the target is stunned until the beginning of their next turn. If they were casting a spell, the spell fails.

Sprinter
Passive: You can take the Dash action as a bonus action on your turns.
Improved: When you take the Dash action, you do not provoke Opportunity Attacks until the end of your turn.
Active: When you are targeted by an attack or an ability that targets an area, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed without provoking Opportunity Attacks. If this movement places you outside the reach or range of the attack or outside the targeted area, you are unaffected by the attack or ability.

Sweeping Strikes
Cannot be entered with more than one weapon in your hands.
Passive: When you make an attack roll and roll greater than 10 on the die, you can cause a different creature within 5’ of the target to take damage of the weapon’s type equal to the modifier used for the attack.
Improved: The passive effect now triggers on every attack, successful or not, unless you roll a natural 1 on the attack roll.
Active: As an action, all creatures within your reach must make a Dexterity saving throw against a DC of 8 + your weapon attack bonus. On a failed save, creatures take damage equal to the maximum damage of the wielded weapon. On a success, the target must use its reaction to step out of your reach if possible, provoking Opportunity Attacks as normal.

Thicket of Blades
Passive: You can make an Opportunity Attack even if you’ve already used your reaction this round, but not more than once per turn.
Improved: When you hit with an Opportunity Attack while in this stance, the target is Marked (see DMG) until the end of their next turn.
Active: As an action, make a melee attack roll against all enemies within your reach. Any target hit takes normal damage and is Marked (see DMG) until they successfully hit you.

Loek
2022-03-01, 09:54 AM
The idea is fun, basically using martial tricks to provide spell/magical/cantrip style bonusses. Which I like.

However, there are some issues, both with balance and overal implementation.

First of all, the idea that you can access to all of them and then can use all of them each short rest... while I'm all for flexibility, this feels... too much.
My suggestion: Either A) Limit the amount a fighter gets (low amount, slowly increasing as they level) or B) Limit the amount they can use per rest (equal to proficiency mod might be an idea for either solution).
The first would represent a specialization on the part of the fighter. While the second would represent a kind of stamina/focus.

Secondly, while the idea of "long term, smaller benifit that can be sacrificed for a big immediate thing" is cool. I think the long term being "as long as you want" might be too much again.
My suggestion: Set a time limit to them, maybe based on level or CON mod or something. So they can stay in the stance for minutes/10's of minutes at max.

Thirdly, the actual abilities. I don't have the time to go through each and everyone one of these, but let me give a few points I don't feel entirely comfortable with:
Athlete As is, this gives a chunk of the benefit of a magical item (boots of springing and striding), the boosted one gives a rather hefty movement bonus (on par with/better than most racial bonusses in that regard) and the active is a better than, but shorter lasting version of a level 1 spell (jump) with a bonus version of a level 1 spell (featherfall) attached.
My suggestion: Maybe split this in two? Create a jump/fall one (2x jump / xft less fall damage / active as is = athlete) and a movement/environmental one (climb speed / swim speed / auto succes on roles related to swiming/climbing/breath holding for a while = acrobat) or some such.
Arrowstorm I like it, but the hobbling seems a bit of a "let's do more" tacked on there. I'd remove that from the active ability.

But overal, my worry is this: Some of these stances basically take other classes their neat tricks (bonus action dash; on miss, try to hit someone else; charisma stuff boosts; etc) or parts of feats (again bonus action to dash, no attacks of opportunity under circumstance X; etc). Which feels like a bit too much, sure the fighter is kinda boring and weak, but this would thrust them into many different spotlights and might affect the rest of the party too much. Not to mention some of these are also rather strong (breaking the force spells... yes fighters are screwed vs them, but this might be too much, especially if every fighter can just do it OR the declaring something a maximized critical hit... bye bye AC boosted/invisible/hiding in darkness/etc special spellcaster that just went SPLUT)


In conclusion: Love the idea, would tone it down a bit. Give flexibility, but not all options. Allow them to balance the long term vs the short term, but don't boost them indefinitely. And finally try to make it so each thing is 1 thing and not several, while avoiding stepping on too many other classes/feats toes.

PhoenixPhyre
2022-03-01, 12:17 PM
The idea is fun, basically using martial tricks to provide spell/magical/cantrip style bonusses. Which I like.

However, there are some issues, both with balance and overal implementation.

First of all, the idea that you can access to all of them and then can use all of them each short rest... while I'm all for flexibility, this feels... too much.
My suggestion: Either A) Limit the amount a fighter gets (low amount, slowly increasing as they level) or B) Limit the amount they can use per rest (equal to proficiency mod might be an idea for either solution).
The first would represent a specialization on the part of the fighter. While the second would represent a kind of stamina/focus.

Secondly, while the idea of "long term, smaller benifit that can be sacrificed for a big immediate thing" is cool. I think the long term being "as long as you want" might be too much again.
My suggestion: Set a time limit to them, maybe based on level or CON mod or something. So they can stay in the stance for minutes/10's of minutes at max.

Thirdly, the actual abilities. I don't have the time to go through each and everyone one of these, but let me give a few points I don't feel entirely comfortable with:
Athlete As is, this gives a chunk of the benefit of a magical item (boots of springing and striding), the boosted one gives a rather hefty movement bonus (on par with/better than most racial bonusses in that regard) and the active is a better than, but shorter lasting version of a level 1 spell (jump) with a bonus version of a level 1 spell (featherfall) attached.
My suggestion: Maybe split this in two? Create a jump/fall one (2x jump / xft less fall damage / active as is = athlete) and a movement/environmental one (climb speed / swim speed / auto succes on roles related to swiming/climbing/breath holding for a while = acrobat) or some such.
Arrowstorm I like it, but the hobbling seems a bit of a "let's do more" tacked on there. I'd remove that from the active ability.

But overal, my worry is this: Some of these stances basically take other classes their neat tricks (bonus action dash; on miss, try to hit someone else; charisma stuff boosts; etc) or parts of feats (again bonus action to dash, no attacks of opportunity under circumstance X; etc). Which feels like a bit too much, sure the fighter is kinda boring and weak, but this would thrust them into many different spotlights and might affect the rest of the party too much. Not to mention some of these are also rather strong (breaking the force spells... yes fighters are screwed vs them, but this might be too much, especially if every fighter can just do it OR the declaring something a maximized critical hit... bye bye AC boosted/invisible/hiding in darkness/etc special spellcaster that just went SPLUT)


In conclusion: Love the idea, would tone it down a bit. Give flexibility, but not all options. Allow them to balance the long term vs the short term, but don't boost them indefinitely. And finally try to make it so each thing is 1 thing and not several, while avoiding stepping on too many other classes/feats toes.

I wasn't (originally) worried about everyone having all of them because I see fighters as being the masters of weapons, the ultimate switch hitters. And most are only relevant to one or two weapons. And if you have a limited number known, you'll end up just using the biggest ones for your chosen weapon over and over, rather than being versatile. As for duration...maybe. I'll have to consider it.

Effects--I have no problem letting fighters mimic pieces of other classes. Because they can't do it as well, and can't do it forever. The point is to break out of the "fighters only walk up and hit things" mode. As for messing up the spell casters? Good. Feature, not bug. Concentration is too hard to break as is. A wizard should fear for his life if there's a fighter anywhere near. Yes, I do want fighters to have a way of breaking force effects. Because that's no fun. And I'd be totally fine with giving barbarians and rogues similar (but not the same) tricks.

Athlete--probably right. Arrowstorm just felt weak if it only did damage; the similar melee one (Sweeping Strikes) forces movement that causes OAs.

Ideally, I'd like to replace the main combat feats entirely with this and other similar things. Bake the "cool things" into the classes directly rather than just provide numbers.

Overall power level--yeah. They're tuned a bit high (hence the title of the OP :smallwink:), somewhat on purpose.

Magikeeper
2022-03-03, 11:45 PM
And if you have a limited number known, you'll end up just using the biggest ones for your chosen weapon over and over, rather than being versatile. As for duration...maybe. I'll have to consider it.

Isn't that already going to be the case regardless? They can only enter the stance once per day, so it'd be common to enter the best for-them combat stance and never leave it. That or start with Inquisitive or a non-combat stance and then enter their preferred battle stance. Even moreso since they're for different weapon styles and feats tend to lock them into a single path. As do magic items. As does playing a character that isn't carrying a golf bag of different weapon types aside from <ranged weapon> and <melee weapon>.

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Some issues with individual stances:

Diplomat: This comes online at level 5, which means if the fighter wanted to make real use of it they need to invest in what is normally a dump stat for 4 levels.. and not already take Persuasion themselves (via background/race/etc) to make use of it. The active ability also makes little sense fluff-wise, and does not have any inherent mechanical effect in 5e (Feels like a 3.5e ability, tbh).

Mountain Break: I suggest specifying "Unattended object" for these abilities.

Thicket of Blades - Current wording creates the strange situation where the OA consumes your reaction if you haven't used it already, but is free if you have.

Sweeping:
> "modifier used for the attack" - which modifier?
> The active ability - no other 5E AOE I know of requires success cases to move out of the way. Why should this be different? Not to mention that this gives enemies a movement option they wouldn't normally have. This isn't getting into the fact that, as written, if they've already use their reaction they suffer no additional penalty.

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I also think the wording in general could be simplified, as could several of the mechanics involved.

PhoenixPhyre
2022-03-04, 01:12 AM
Isn't that already going to be the case regardless? They can only enter the stance once per day, so it'd be common to enter the best for-them combat stance and never leave it. That or start with Inquisitive or a non-combat stance and then enter their preferred battle stance. Even moreso since they're for different weapon styles and feats tend to lock them into a single path. As do magic items. As does playing a character that isn't carrying a golf bag of different weapon types aside from <ranged weapon> and <melee weapon>.


If they start in one and never leave it, that means they never spend the active ability. Which means the active abilities aren't impressive (relatively) enough compared to the passive ones. Which would be a balance issue. Ideally, they would carry a range of weapons and bounce between them as needed. I envision, for instance, a SnB tanky/controlling fighter to start the day of a big fight in Inquisitive, burning the active to ensure favorable initiative for a big fight. And then switch to ToB, until a good opportunity arrives to lock down a bunch of people. And then switch to Sweeping Strikes or Shielding Bulwark as needed.

And on a day where they have ranged fights, switching to Arrowstorm beats not being able to contribute meaningfully at all. I'll note that I strongly prefer when people (especially fighters with their multiple extra ASIs) diversify their capabilities instead of super-specializing on one.

It's a passive + spender concept. The goal is to promote actively switching stances, making decisions on when to play the big card (at the cost of having to switch stances afterward). Judging what stance to start in and when to burn the active is the "optimization" side. The initial design had the "cooldown" be that you couldn't go back into the same stance until you took a minute of rest to center yourself (ie you could only use a given stance once per combat). I changed that based on feedback.

-----


Some issues with individual stances:

Diplomat: This comes online at level 5, which means if the fighter wanted to make real use of it they need to invest in what is normally a dump stat for 4 levels.. and not already take Persuasion themselves (via background/race/etc) to make use of it. The active ability also makes little sense fluff-wise, and does not have any inherent mechanical effect in 5e (Feels like a 3.5e ability, tbh).


You don't need particularly high CHA, really. Proficiency (and then expertise) covers a low score. And being friendly does have mechanical implications. See the "Social Interaction" table, where a DC 20 Charisma (X) check gets you "will help if it costs them nothing" from a hostile person but will get "will take substantial risk to help you" from a friendly one. That's what being considered friendly (the big part of Charm effects) does--opens a whole world of things you can get from a check.

In the initial draft, I had these starting at level 2, but I wanted to move it out of range of dips. Hence level 5.



Mountain Break: I suggest specifying "Unattended object" for these abilities.


What, you don't like sundering? I agree.



Thicket of Blades - Current wording creates the strange situation where the OA consumes your reaction if you haven't used it already, but is free if you have.


That's intentional. If you ToB, you can OA as many times as you want, but you can't OA and then later cast shield. Could you cast shield first and then OA? Sure. Maybe the wording can be cleaned up so that you can only OA for free if you spent your reaction to OA.



Sweeping:
> "modifier used for the attack" - which modifier?
> The active ability - no other 5E AOE I know of requires success cases to move out of the way. Why should this be different? Not to mention that this gives enemies a movement option they wouldn't normally have. This isn't getting into the fact that, as written, if they've already use their reaction they suffer no additional penalty.


I could probably clarify that it's the ability modifier. So STR or DEX. And there are precedent effects--CF the gelatinous cube's engulf. If you succeed on the Dex save, you're pushed to the side. The goal here (and the wording can probably be simplified) is that either way, they take a penalty. Either they provoke an OA and have to move (letting you basically AoE shove and walk away) or they take a solid hit.

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I also think the wording in general could be simplified, as could several of the mechanics involved.

Likely.

Magikeeper
2022-03-05, 02:07 AM
You don't need particularly high CHA, really. Proficiency (and then expertise) covers a low score. And being friendly does have mechanical implications. See the "Social Interaction" table, where a DC 20 Charisma (X) check gets you "will help if it costs them nothing" from a hostile person but will get "will take substantial risk to help you" from a friendly one. That's what being considered friendly (the big part of Charm effects) does--opens a whole world of things you can get from a check.

I'll retract the mechanical effect claim, you're right. The active ability really needs a bit more fluff regarding what is going on though, imo. Have mercy on the player using this homebrew that now needs to explain why the bloodthirsty hoards are going to seriously consider helping the party now. Can I think of reasons? Sure. But I still strongly suggest giving more direction there.

PhoenixPhyre
2022-03-05, 01:30 PM
I'll retract the mechanical effect claim, you're right. The active ability really needs a bit more fluff regarding what is going on though, imo. Have mercy on the player using this homebrew that now needs to explain why the bloodthirsty hoards are going to seriously consider helping the party now. Can I think of reasons? Sure. But I still strongly suggest giving more direction there.

That's a fair statement. I'll note that my mental image of all of these is pretty extraordinary (in the 3e sense)--all of these are fantastic abilities that have effects beyond the mundane. They're not spells, but they're manipulating the background magic of the world. In this case, exerting your will on the hearts and minds of those around you to become extraordinarily persuasive for a short time. "Turning on the charm" taken to a non-mundane level.

I should also note that the default consumer of all of my homebrew is my own players. If they got used elsewhere, that's great. But my primary focus is on my own tables, where I'm always the DM.