Making Protection From Arrows stay relevant

[Elder_Basilisk]

Up until 3.5, protection from arrows granted a scaling resistance that kept it relevant throughout the game, however 3.5 and Pathfinder eliminated the qualitative scaling so that it just grants DR 10/magic at all levels and at the same time, changed the ammunition rules so that even nonmagical arrows fired from a magic bow defeat DR /magic. Consequently, the spell rapidly loses relevance except as a once in a blue moon defense against mass ranged fire from low level enemies.

What would be the best way to restore that scaling within the context of 3.5/Pathfinder?

Some ideas:
change to DR 10/adamantine at clvl 8 or 10.
Change it to DR /- but make the DR scale.possibly DR 2 +1/2 clvl (max 10)/ - vs ranged attacks.

Any other ideas?

[flappeercraft]

While I agree that protection from arrows quickly becomes weaker, it is a 2nd level spell after all. On the end of making it DR/Adamantine at some point, isn't that what stoneskin exactly does but restricted to ranged attacks?

[Biggus]

Change it to DR /- but make the DR scale.possibly DR 2 +1/2 clvl (max 10)/ - vs ranged attacks.


If you want to it provide damage reduction specifically, I think this is the best way to make it scale. Other ways would involve making it do something else, such as provide a miss chance or AC bonus vs ranged weapons.

[Silly Name]

This is one of those cases were the change from DR/+X to generic DR/Magic wasn't all that good. The way Protection from Arrows scaled in 3.0 was pretty straightforward and intuitive.

Adding a DR/material at a certain CL could achieve something similar, but it feels inelegant, as does switching it to DR/-.

[Thurbane]

Maybe give it an optional, costly component that changes the DR type from magic, to adamantine, cold iron, or silver?

[RandomPeasant]

I feel like on the list of problems you could fix, "protection from arrows kinda sucks at high level" does not rate as a very important one. If you want to make archers sad, you can just cast wind wall.

[martixy]

Protection from arrows, not immunity from arrows.

The warded creature gains resistance to ranged weapons.

It's bullet resistant glass, not bullet-proof.

[Elkad]

My houserule is relevant here.

At my table DR/magic is reduced by 5 points per plus, not an automatic burnthrough.

So if a company of hobgoblins shoots at you with their 12str composite bows, they do (1d8+1)-10, which bounces.
Luckily, their commander has issued them all 3 +1 arrows each. They switch and do (1d8+1)-5, for a half-point each.

[Seward]

Prot Arrows is a weird spell. They left it at hour/level but made it otherwise so weak it'll never be used past level 6 or so.

If I had designed it, I would have used Resist Energy as a model

Make it 10 minutes/level, have no ablative portion (as prot energy and Stoneskin does) and have it just provide flat dr 5- vs all physical ranged attacks, dr 10- at level 7 and dr 15- at level 11. (ranged attacks don't do as much damage/hit as energy attacks, so you can't provide as much protection). You maybe have to build in a weakness (like Adamantine for Stoneskin) to keep it from just ruining PC archers, or perhaps the spell is like Resist Energy and it is more like "DR vs ranged attacks that are steel/cold iron, dr vs ranged attacks that are natural weapons, dr vs ranged attacks that are adamantine" so you have to cast it multiple times to get full protection, as with resist energy.

People would use that version, but would be challenged to have it up 24x7, especially if they had to cast multiple times to be prepared for all expected enemies.

In another game, Ars Magica, wards against metal attacks and wood attacks were really common among combat wizards, as most weapons of any kind are made of wood or metal (and stone weapons were covered by metal, as in that paradigm it's just a lesser form of metal). So to hurt mages you'd craft weapons or projectiles out of bone (they needed to cast different wards vs human bone or animal bone) or perhaps ice. And the really paranoid mages warded against those too, but it took a broader focus to be good at blocking everything like that, and no defense was ever foolproof (there were ways to ward objects vs influence with magic, and also you could challenge the mage's magic resistance directly with a variety of spells that to things as lethal as stopping a heart or erasing your mind, with consumables that if you were willing to risk a lethal fumble could overpower any resistance if you gathered the resources first and were willing to burn valuable resources just to kill somebody. Think of it as overcoming spell resistance and guaranteeing a failed save by breaking a staff of power or other expensive magic item - and hope they didn't do something just as ruthless on the defense)

[Elder_Basilisk]

I rather like the idea of varying the resistance with material components. Maybe DR /cold iron 50 gp: a nymph's tear. DR /silver 100 gp a lycanthrope's tooth. DR /adamantine a 1000 gp focus: ornate, rune inscribed miniature adamantine buckler. I'm not sure I'd want alignment DR to be available but if it was, it would probably cost like DR silver and require a soul gem for DR /good, an angel feather for DR evil, a complex gearbox for DR /chaotic, or a vial of primordial ether for DR /lawful.

The idea that DR cold iron should be cheaper than other options really stems from the ease of overcoming it. Given that they only cost an extra 5 cp per arrow, most archers should probably carry at least some cold iron arrows just in case.

[ericgrau]

Given all the flawed threads that say protection from arrows makes archers irrelevant (it doesn't because of magic arrows for one), maybe this isn't the greatest idea. Hour/level buffs are supposed to be minor because you can keep them up all day. That's extremely good action economy. Unlike other defensive spells that sound great in theory but cost an action that may be better used on something else. Lots of high level enemies still don't have magical ranged weapons too. So if you can block part of them but not all, that sounds about right for the spell's power level. The bigger issue is many high level enemies don't use weapons at all, but then that's what preparing different spells and scrolls/wands are for. At the same time I really wouldn't want a buffed protection from arrows in the hands of enemies.

Magic bows made magic arrows in 3.5 too btw.

I think the real issue is the spell is niche so people often don't notice it. But next time your high level PC is taking on an army, consider it.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Given all the flawed threads that say protection from arrows makes archers irrelevant (it doesn't because of magic arrows for one), maybe this isn't the greatest idea. Hour/level buffs are supposed to be minor because you can keep them up all day. Lots of high level enemies still don't have magical ranged weapons too. So if you can block part of them but not all, that sounds about right for the spell's power level. The bigger issue is many high level enemies don't use weapons at all, but then that's what preparing different spells and scrolls/wands are for. At the same time I really wouldn't want a buffed protection from arrows in the hands of enemies.

As a player, depending on the particular buffs selected to improve the spell, enemies running around with buffed protection from arrows would range from a minor annoyance to a complicating but not game over moment, though I suppose it would be annoying either way if every enemy had it. Then again, any counter becomes annoying if everyone uses it.

Variable DR protection from arrows would force the archer to be more particular about which arrow comes out of the quiver of Ehlonna, but they're all in there in quantity except for adamantine (and if I were in a higher optimization game, there would be a bunch of durable adamantine arrows too). The DR/- options would be a little more annoying but as I see it, it's still only absorbing 35% of a similarly leveled archer's damage anyway (a level 10+ Pathfinder archer with even moderate optimization is dishing out 25-35 damage per arrow anyway, maybe a little less in 3.5 due to lack of Deadly Aim) dispel magic is a common tactic anyway, and archery could use a few more soft counters anyway. By the time archers reach mid levels, improved precise shot, and class features that allow shooting in melee often remove most soft counters leaving only things like wind wall which completely eliminate archery.

[liquidformat]

My houserule is relevant here.

At my table DR/magic is reduced by 5 points per plus, not an automatic burnthrough.

So if a company of hobgoblins shoots at you with their 12str composite bows, they do (1d8+1)-10, which bounces.
Luckily, their commander has issued them all 3 +1 arrows each. They switch and do (1d8+1)-5, for a half-point each.

This is a very cool idea. In general of all the 3.0 to 3.5 changes my least favorite was going from /+X to /magic, I much preferred the /+X and think it makes more sense both in world and from a game mechanics point of view. That change also made the +X side of magic items a lot less useful.

[Seward]

the +x was a holdover from 1st/2nd edition, where the only thing that mattered was enchantment bonus (and you could not hurt monsters at all if you didn't have it, which is why 3.0 DR was much larger than 3.5 dr)

It was changed probably because Greater Magic Weapon made that idea irrelevant, and gave everybody +5 weapons by level 15.

Pathfinder found a middle ground, enhancement bonus+3 gets you past dr silver or cold iron, +4 past adamantium, +5 past alignment DR, while keeping the 1/4 level advancement of GMW and explicitly not letting GMW penetrate DR.

If you wanted a "sword of smite anything" (as my halfling dex tank called it) you had to get it through weapon enchantments and/or weapon material. She had "urban rage" which raised dexterity, and that let her use a +1 adamantium raging evil outsider bane weapon, which was +3 when she raged, giving her cold iron/silver via the +3, adamantine via weapon material and +5 vs evil outsiders penetrating any DR that wasn't lawful, chaotic or good or that wasn't dr/evil on something that wasn't an evil outsider. It did not, however, let her kill creatures that needed DR/good to break their regeneration, so she eventually got a class feature that provided dr/good anyway. She also picked up a swarmbane clasp (an item that lets you affect any swarm with a normal weapon) when her sword of smite anything didn't hurt a swarm and she thought it should.

Hilariously right after she got her swarmbane clasp and dr/good class feature she encountered a hellwasp-like swarm (not an evil outsider but dr/evil and a swarm), totally justifying her devotion to the principle of "smite anything" without having to know anything about what she was fighting. In the last level she earned she also got a class feature providing ghost touch. Fortunately for her worldview, she never encountered DR10- type elementals, and every incorporeal she'd previously encountered was a trivial encounter (for her - once the party fought a desperate battle in another room while she cleaned up another entire battle and it was over before she got back) so she never noticed those gaps in her capability. That would have made her very angry.

[Eladrinblade]

A simple solution if you don't want additional houserules is to make it scale, for instance: x DR/magic, with .5 x DR/-.

I also have the houserules where each +1 beats 5 DR/magic, so if something has DR 15/magic, a +3 weapon ignores all of it while a +2 weapon ignores 10. So for me, I would just have it start at DR 5/magic and increase by 5 every x levels.

[Melcar]

Up until 3.5, protection from arrows granted a scaling resistance that kept it relevant throughout the game, however 3.5 and Pathfinder eliminated the qualitative scaling so that it just grants DR 10/magic at all levels and at the same time, changed the ammunition rules so that even nonmagical arrows fired from a magic bow defeat DR /magic. Consequently, the spell rapidly loses relevance except as a once in a blue moon defense against mass ranged fire from low level enemies.

What would be the best way to restore that scaling within the context of 3.5/Pathfinder?

Some ideas:
change to DR 10/adamantine at clvl 8 or 10.
Change it to DR /- but make the DR scale.possibly DR 2 +1/2 clvl (max 10)/ - vs ranged attacks.

Any other ideas?

Iron Guard and Starmantle does it better... if available!

[Jack_Simth]

My houserule is relevant here.

At my table DR/magic is reduced by 5 points per plus, not an automatic burnthrough.

So if a company of hobgoblins shoots at you with their 12str composite bows, they do (1d8+1)-10, which bounces.
Luckily, their commander has issued them all 3 +1 arrows each. They switch and do (1d8+1)-5, for a half-point each.

How does this interact with the rule about critters with DR/Magic penetrating the DR of other creatures with DR/Magic?

[ericgrau]

As a player, depending on the particular buffs selected to improve the spell, enemies running around with buffed protection from arrows would range from a minor annoyance to a complicating but not game over moment, though I suppose it would be annoying either way if every enemy had it. Then again, any counter becomes annoying if everyone uses it.

Variable DR protection from arrows would force the archer to be more particular about which arrow comes out of the quiver of Ehlonna, but they're all in there in quantity except for adamantine (and if I were in a higher optimization game, there would be a bunch of durable adamantine arrows too). The DR/- options would be a little more annoying but as I see it, it's still only absorbing 35% of a similarly leveled archer's damage anyway (a level 10+ Pathfinder archer with even moderate optimization is dishing out 25-35 damage per arrow anyway, maybe a little less in 3.5 due to lack of Deadly Aim) dispel magic is a common tactic anyway, and archery could use a few more soft counters anyway. By the time archers reach mid levels, improved precise shot, and class features that allow shooting in melee often remove most soft counters leaving only things like wind wall which completely eliminate archery.

How do you know which arrow to draw though? The action cost of dispel is very high too especially when success isn't 100%. Probably an example of the cure being worse than the disease here.

If you want a much stronger spell you can still do it with a much higher level or a much shorter duration. Though things like DMM persist/quicken might break the attempt at balance by duration.

[Elder_Basilisk]

If it's 3.5, you're dropping dispel magics anyway if the enemies are buffed up at all--and they usually are if they can be. Odds are good the target has something up and the area dispel is likely to get something from everyone.

Pathfinder is a little less buff and dispel happy (especially due to the lack of an are dispel option short of greater dispel magic), but against a heavily buffed target, you'll still usually get something--and odds are pretty good that protection from arrows isn't the target's only buff.

As for picking the arrow, even unhasted archers will unload 3 in a full attack by level 6 (4 with many shot in Pathfinder) so start with cold iron and if that doesn't work, try silver. If that doesn't work either, you want adamantine. They're probably all magic so unless you allowed alignment DR it's figured out by the end of the first full attack if not before.

[Seward]

I'm in a minority I guess. Dispels were mostly used on targets like Dragons where I played, where you knew you had a big level advantage, and stripping off mage armor and shield and maybe energy resistance was the best way to let your ranged damage dealers do their thing, like it was any other enemy. Most other good dispel targets (like a fighter who drank several potions all easy to dispel) could just be killed or managed in conventional ways, even buffed.

The best defense against most other buffed enemies was to try to scout and not get into a conflict when they knew you were coming and had all their buffs up (and even then, we preferred to spend actions killing or disabling the enemy than trying to play dispel-roulette, with rare exceptions like somebody with arcane sight up and some advantages like inquisition domain working for that caster). Sometimes we were bastards and would disengage after they buffed and return 15 minutes later, wasting any short duration buffing they'd done. Although ambushing them before they drank or used up our loot (potions/scrolls) was always preferred, where possible.

Occasionally you'd encounter a lich or fully prepared tier 1 caster and it might be worth an action from somebody to strip 1/2 to 1/3 of those random protections off, but where I played dispel was an occasional, tactical action, similar to casting faerie fire or remove fear or some such. It wasn't considered a good routine use of a standard action unless regular offense wasn't going to work well without some magic removed. That could be a crapshoot too. Those guys often seemed to have things like spell turning or a ring of counterspells that could make a targeted dispel a wasted action (or spell turning could strip your own buffs away). The way advancement works some would also have absurdly high caster levels if the buff came from a SLA with caster level based on hit dice.

In lower levels we weren't a real fan of weak debuffs like Bane, and it's the same concept. An area dispel will remove one random buff from everybody in the area. In terms of actual impact, it is usually about like sticking a Bane at level 1. Sometimes it has a huge impact (getting rid of a blink effect, for example, can really turn things around) but that's the exception rather than the rule with a random area attack. Far more often you dispel darkvision in a lit room, or endure elements, or maybe take one guy out of a telepathic bond spell.



As for picking the arrow, even unhasted archers will unload 3 in a full attack by level 6 (4 with many shot in Pathfinder) so start with cold iron and if that doesn't work, try silver. If that doesn't work either, you want adamantine. They're probably all magic so unless you allowed alignment DR it's figured out by the end of the first full attack if not before.

Indeed. If the walking library in the party couldn't identify the enemy damage reduction, the archer would usually do the job for the party, swapping arrows till something worked, or it was revealed nothing in his quiver worked, which might lead some other martial to draw his weapon that brings something new to the equation and give it a shot. Or just boost his power attack to plow through. Or the arcane will try some direct damage knowing the martials will be struggling.

[Elder_Basilisk]

It all depends on the creatures you're fighting. In both Pathfinder and 3.5, any group of multiple foes is going to benefit a lot from haste and it's a good use of a low level caster to cast the spell or read a scroll at lower levels. Recitation and a few other spells also help them punch far above their weight so they're worth dispelling--especially in 3.5 where recitation is a thing and dispel magic is much stronger. So against enemies like drow, the Red Hand hobgoblins (at least in some minimally rewritten versions), and rival adventuring parties, it's a standard toolbox tactic. Obviously less useful if you're ambushed by a bunch of winter wolves or a pack of trolls. Scouting and tactical withdrawal can mitigate some of those things but they're a lot less effective against in combat buffing than the cheesy "everyone drinks their potions two rounds before they attack" lazy writing style.

My point is that if the changes would make protection from arrows ubiquitous among NPCs, then odds are pretty good that the party already has the tactics to deal with it in their toolbox. The things that mitigate it are a lot less specialized than the counters to darkness and invisibility etc.

[Seward]

In combat buffing is another animal, and yeah, haste double's the effectiveness of Red Hand Regulars in its range, later things like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful can be a big deal. Ganking the bard or buff cleric is often a bit too late.

I guess in my circles rather than a dispel, the solution to somebody spellcrafting haste (or just noticing the rate of fire increase) on a bunch of archers was to put up a wind wall or a fog cloud, unless the ranged attacks of the party were potent enough to just prioritize the archers and make them dead. Yes, they can punch above their weight but in the end they are tied to their low level AC and hitpoint pool, and low level saves. There are similar counters to melee threats that deal with reach, charge lanes and whatnot, some which will make you absolutely immune till you can get around to them. Compared to dispel magic, sleet storm, various wall spells, various fog spells...they just work. At worst they might still be able to attack you but with 50% miss chance, which is as good as a dispel on haste or whatever most of the time.

The thing about D&D is there are usually multiple solutions to any problem. Neither Dispel nor the other responses are much good though if those supercharged minions manage to focus fire and kill somebody before you can respond. So a lot depends on your estimates of your party's ability to give such minions enough attention to eliminate the threat in a timely manner, and if not, you go for some kind of mitigation strategy. We just didn't find even 3.5 dispel reliable enough at reducing the threat to be worth a primary caster standard action in most situations. We used it more to make an untouchable opponent vulnerable than to reduce the power of a buffed regular opponent.

====
To address your other point, NPCs using prot arrows won't change the dynamics that much, buffs or no buffs. If it has any weaknesses parties will rapidly find it, if the party can't find a weakness they'll switch to melee. (I remember a memorable encounter involving an epic caster, antimagic field and the epic spell that reflects a number of ranged attacks per day. The party plan had been to grapple the caster in an antimagic field and gun him down with improved precise shot from bows outside the field, which, while not magical would still benefit from rapid shot, haste, weapon spec etc. After the first arrow returned to crit the first archer in the face, everybody dropped their ranged weapons and started slugging away with whatever melee weapon was to hand and no buffs just like their victim. Nobody even had a reach weapon. This party had only 2 strongish characters...only 14-16ish strength without buffs, so watching near-epic PC's flail away with spiked gauntlets and similar for less than 10 points of damage a round for their action was kind of funny. The epic caster though did have his epic escape spell suppressed by the antimagic field dispel check, had only 7 strength and 12 bab, so he didn't get loose, and pathetic as the damage was from the party other than the grappler herself (who also wasn't a primary melee but had some strength and a decent bab) it was fast enough to knock the guy out before the battle ended).

Where you have to watch out not to make the spell too strong is NPC ranged attackers. Pretty much anything will allow prot arrows to shut down something like manticore spines, even now, and most thrown weapons will notice the impact (it's pretty good vs giant boulders, for example), but if you improve prot arrows you need to remember as a GM to start equipping your NPC archers with a few special material weapons. Admantine is too expensive, which is why stoneskin works as well as it does, but if silver or cold iron was a common DR defense, more archer units would be equipped with such arrows, just as some group with a fey menace on their borders packs cold iron, or a troll menace has some acid or at least lamp oil and tindertwigs to coup de grace the trolls.

[Elkad]

How does this interact with the rule about critters with DR/Magic penetrating the DR of other creatures with DR/Magic?

Even easier. Just compare them. If you have dr2/magic and are biting a guy with dr10/magic, you get -8 on damage.

I do a similar thing for hardness. Your +2 axe bypasses 4pts on that adamant door, leaving you at -16. Mountain Hammer is -IL, with the higher versions being -2xIL and -3xIL.