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Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 11:30 AM
I don't buy into the "every character in middle earth is 5th level or lower*" idea. However, the Paladin class covers everything that Gandalf does in the books, with the exception of :

-fire based abilities (he gets those from the ring of fire)
-breaking Saruman's staff
-using a word of power to seal a door in Moria

He couldn't break Saruman's spell on Theoden as a low-level paladin, but Break Enchantment is a 4th level paladin spell, which would do the trick.


*If you want to discuss this issue, start another thread. I just wanted to clarify that the 6th level line is a poke at the Dragon mag. article of a similar name.

Setra
2007-11-23, 11:31 AM
Obviously he is a multiclass Paladin/Sorcerer.

SmartAlec
2007-11-23, 11:37 AM
Can he be two different characters? Say, Gandalf the Grey is a Wizard, but Gandalf the White is a Cleric?

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 11:39 AM
Obviously he is a multiclass Paladin/Sorcerer.

Except that Gandalf doens't do any flashy magic except what is justified by the fact he has Narya.

There are no full spellcasters in LotR. Gandalf is called a wizard because he does magic. Paladins do magic, and in a world w/o wizards, it would make sense for them to be called wizards. Gandalf is also a servant sent by the Valar to combat Sauron's rising evil.

You could have Saruman as a blackguard, if blackguard wasn't a horrible travesty of a class.

Matthew
2007-11-23, 11:54 AM
This again, eh? There are multiple ways to model Gandalf, and given that people's perceptions of the character differ, not everyone's solution will appear reasonable to everyone else. As far as I am concerned, Gandalf isn't best modelled by the Paladin Class; mechanically and conceptually it falls far short of the mark for me.

I take it we're not including Gandalf killing a bunch of Goblins with a Lightning Bolt in the Hobbit or just ascribing it to another source of power? Regardless, I'm pretty sure you could model Gandalf with the Fighter Class if you really wanted to... probably even the Aristocrat or Expert NPC Classes.

Ossian
2007-11-23, 01:17 PM
Gandalf...he was probably using a modest 10% of his skills...
He is proficient with thew longsword, as it appears, and probably also at bashing head with his staff. He actually cuts through some orcs, and he stands out during the defense of Minas Tirith. Adding to this the fact that Glamdring was a very powerful blade made for the ONLY monster of middle earth you are likely to encounter (guess? yeah, more orcs), we can give him decent fighting skills. Now, to wade through an army of low level goblins a 3rd level fighter or paladin (for some nice extra skills and holy auras) will do the trick, considering he:

a) still has to get some more levels in other classes (more BAB and HP and saves)
b) is hardly ever alone
c) benefits from the inner strength derived from being an incarnated maia
d) aside from a balrog and the nazguls (which he defies uncloaking his full potential) orcs are mostly cannon fodder, if a bit more dangerous than D&D 'goblins'.
e) isn't devoid of good magical items.

After all, Stormtroopers are supposed to be the elite assault troops of the Empire, and still the heroes cut them down like grass.

As for the magic side, well, a Druid would do, with some modifications to account for the fact that he can cast some lightning bolts and use fire to some extent. You don't really need to give him 10 levels of sorcerer (he does not use a spellbook).

So, if he were a character, Fighetr 3rd/Druid 7ish would be ok + "I'm a MAIA of Mandos". Or maybe a Paladin/Sorcerer totalling a bit more levels (around 12) + "I'm a MAIA of Mandos"

+ Elvish Ring of Fire
+ Staff of the Hered Istarion
+ Uber Powerful enchanted elven blade of orc extermination

Ah, gotta go....sorry

O.

Matthew
2007-11-23, 01:22 PM
He works pretty well as a Native Outsider with Sorcerer Levels, as well, or just plain old Native Outsider with a Magic Ring or other unlegislated Supernatural Abilities. One thing is for sure, Gandalf is an exception to the 'everyone in Middle Earth is around Level Five or below' idea. He's way more powerful than anyone in the Fellowship.

kemmotar
2007-11-23, 01:31 PM
Or just a cleric of the valar with air and fire domain...which would explain the lightning bolt, the fire and the spells...decent fighting abilities through a good str score. Outsider. Overpowers orcs thanks to the special sword and can buff up for the nazgul or the balrog. Okay we don't see it...still and silent spell work though...he's obviously got a monstrous charisma score..he is a wise outsider that has lived for as much as sauron (they're both maia or at least sauron is an ex-maia...maybe a few fighter levels for BAB and feats...or ranger(TWF and favored enemy orcs and evil outsiders..)

Saruman fits the profile too...maybe with more focus on spells and knowledge...maybe mystic theurge..the only difference is he's an evil cleric...maybe of an evil ideal or of sauron...though since he wants sauron's power for himself he's probably juse evil dedicated to an ideal i guess...

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 01:52 PM
One thing is for sure, Gandalf is an exception to the 'everyone in Middle Earth is around Level Five or below' idea.

As is most of the fellowship, barring hobbits. 5 levels is not sufficient to cover the range of power that is apparent in the fellowship. 1-10th fits pretty well, as long as you don't do things like insist that wizard = full spellcasting abilities ala D&D.

As I said before, there are only three things that Gandalf does in the books that aren't covered by Narya and Paladin levels. You could attribute breaking Saruman's staff to part of the power of Gandalf's staff, but Gandalf's staff is never really given any specification as to what it can do. Not even along the lines of "Narya is a ring of fire, so anything fire-based Gandalf does can be attributed to it". Such as throwing flaming pinecones at goblins.



As far as I am concerned, Gandalf isn't best modelled by the Paladin Class; mechanically and conceptually it falls far short of the mark for me.

What other single class can represent all of the following aspects of Gandalf, that aren't pretty explicitly from items?

-Good with a sword
(sure Glamdring is a really good sword enchanted for orc slaying, but Gandalf primarily defeats the Balrog by attacking it with his sword. Holy Sword (the paladin spell) + Smite Evil 5/day would represent that really well. High level paladin fits the setting much better than high level anything with full spellcasting.)
-Limited spellcasting ability
-Shadowfax
-Limited ability to heal others
-Inspire Courage
-Having the divine grace of the Valar

Also, if you get rid of all classes with better than ranger and paladin level spellcasting, everything falls into place. There are really only two problems with high level PCs in ME. The first is high level spellcasting, and the other is high level magic items. Removing full spellcasting fixes both of these problems, because w/o magic items, AC isn't as high. w/o full spellcasters, large groups don't dies as fast.

End result? A large group of low-level orc warriors remains a threat at all levels of play.

Tengu
2007-11-23, 02:03 PM
Magic works in a much more subtle way in LotR than in DND - it's more about inspiration in mortals (or manipulating them) and magical duels of will with other powerful creatures. If you really wanted, you could represent him as an outsider with innate casting and marshal-like auras.

Matthew
2007-11-23, 02:07 PM
As I said before, there are only three things that Gandalf does in the books that aren't covered by Narya and Paladin levels. You could attribute breaking Saruman's staff to part of the power of Gandalf's staff, but Gandalf's staff is never really given any specification as to what it can do. Not even along the lines of "Narya is a ring of fire, so anything fire-based Gandalf does can be attributed to it". Such as throwing flaming pinecones at goblins.

And as I said, you could model him as a Fighter if you wanted to. Outsourcing anything that doesn't fit your ideas to external power sources pretty much allows you to do anything you want.

I don't see any evidence that Sauron isn't an Epic Level Level Commoner with maxed out Use Magic Device or whatever...

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 02:13 PM
And as I said, you could model him as a Fighter if you wanted to. Outsourcing anything that doesn't fit your ideas to external power sources pretty much allows you to do anything you want.

What outsourcing? Gandalf HAS the Ring of Fire. Which DOES give him those powers. Giving him levels in a class with fire-based abilities or powers would not do him justice, because he DOESN'T have those abilities innately.

Chronos
2007-11-23, 02:13 PM
Adding to this the fact that Glamdring was a very powerful blade made for the ONLY monster of middle earth you are likely to encounter (guess? yeah, more orcs)Not exactly. Orcrist was the Goblin-Cleaver (specific to Goblins/Orcs), but Glamdring was the Foe-Hammer, effective versus any enemy. In D&D terms, Orcrist would probably be a Sword +3, Orcbane, but Glamdring would be a Sword +5, possibly with some other mods (Holy, maybe). Both are about equally effective versus orcs, but versus anything else, Glamdring is better.

Personally, I don't see any pressing need to give Gandalf any class levels at all. One could just as easily say that all of his wondrous abilities are inherent to his race. One could still try to figure out his ECL, but that's not necessarily going to be straightforward.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 02:15 PM
One could just as easily say that all of his wondrous abilities are inherent to his race. One could still try to figure out his ECL, but that's not necessarily going to be straightforward.

Well yes, but that makes for a less interesting conversation.

Matthew
2007-11-23, 02:24 PM
What outsourcing? Gandalf HAS the Ring of Fire. Which DOES give him those powers. Giving him levels in a class with fire-based abilities or powers would not do him justice, because he DOESN'T have those abilities innately.

There's nothing to say he doesn't have those powers innately. You are just assuming he doesn't based on the fact that he possesses the Ring of Fire, the exact powers of which we know nothing. For all we know, it may simply augment what he is already capable of. Certainly, Saruman never suspected he had the ring and yet he doesn't seem to have bothered to hide his skill with fire.

Premier
2007-11-23, 02:27 PM
A note about the Ring of Fire. Some people seem to believe that Gandalf got his abilities to create sparks, set things on fire, call lightning, etc. etc. from the ring. This is patently incorrect. The Elven Rings were created to protect and preserve, and the Ring of Fire was given to Gandalf to help him give inspiration and hope to the people of Middle Earth. The destructive nature of the "fiery" actions performed by Gandalf go completely against this idea, as well as against the subtle nature of most Middle Earth magics.
Lots of Tolkien and more generic fantasy fans seem to believe that Gandalf gained all his "firebally" abilities from the Ring, but in fact this is completely unsupported by the books. Most people come to the conclusion based solely Gandalf's "I am the servant of the Secret Fire"-speech in Moria, but they fail to realise (I guess most of them just never read the Silmarillion) that he's talking about something completely different there. He's NOT referring to his ring.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 02:30 PM
Certainly, Saruman never suspected he had the ring and yet he doesn't seem to have bothered to hide his skill with fire.

Actually, Gandalf expressed a great deal of concern over the matter when the Fellowship attempted to cross the Caradhras (sp?). He felt that by performing even such a simple act as lighting a fire with magic, he was creating a beacon for all the world to know he was there.

Of course, you still haven't proposed what class would work better than paladin. The Paladin class presents the least number of things that have to be explained away via fiat or magic item. If he is a wizard, than why does he fight the Balrog with a sword instead of with spells? Explaining that by saying "Well, Glamdring is really, really, powerful, is somewhat ridiculous".

Especially compared to answering the question "If Gandalf is a paladin, then how does he call down fire from the shy?" with "He has a magical ring devoted to Fire".



A note about the Ring of Fire. Some people seem to believe that Gandalf got his abilities to create sparks, set things on fire, call lightning, etc. etc. from the ring. This is patently incorrect. The Elven Rings were created to protect and preserve, and the Ring of Fire was given to Gandalf to help him give inspiration and hope to the people of Middle Earth. The destructive nature of the "fiery" actions performed by Gandalf go completely against this idea, as well as against the subtle nature of most Middle Earth magics.
Lots of Tolkien and more generic fantasy fans seem to believe that Gandalf gained all his "firebally" abilities from the Ring, but in fact this is completely unsupported by the books. Most people come to the conclusion based solely Gandalf's "I am the servant of the Secret Fire"-speech in Moria, but they fail to realise (I guess most of them just never read the Silmarillion) that he's talking about something completely different there. He's NOT referring to his ring.

Your POV is equally unsupported by anything in the books.

Matthew
2007-11-23, 02:33 PM
A note about the Ring of Fire. Some people seem to believe that Gandalf got his abilities to create sparks, set things on fire, call lightning, etc. etc. from the ring. This is patently incorrect. The Elven Rings were created to protect and preserve, and the Ring of Fire was given to Gandalf to help him give inspiration and hope to the people of Middle Earth. The destructive nature of the "fiery" actions performed by Gandalf go completely against this idea, as well as against the subtle nature of most Middle Earth magics.
Lots of Tolkien and more generic fantasy fans seem to believe that Gandalf gained all his "firebally" abilities from the Ring, but in fact this is completely unsupported by the books. Most people come to the conclusion based solely Gandalf's "I am the servant of the Secret Fire"-speech in Moria, but they fail to realise (I guess most of them just never read the Silmarillion) that he's talking about something completely different there. He's NOT referring to his ring.

Very true, Premier, though I wouldn't be surprised if it did grant him some power over fire. If it's anything like the One Ring, it grants power in proportion to the individual.

Here's some discussion over at Knights & Knaves (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1798), with a nice list of spell occurences.


Actually, Gandalf expressed a great deal of concern over the matter when the Fellowship attempted to cross the Caradhras (sp?). He felt that by performing even such a simple act as lighting a fire with magic, he was creating a beacon for all the world to know he was there.

Er, yeah, which implies that Saruman would know it was him using fire based magic, not that Saruman didn't know he could use fire based magic. To be clear, Gandalf doesn't want to reveal the position of the company, not the extent of his powers.


Of course, you still haven't proposed what class would work better than paladin. The Paladin class presents the least number of things that have to be explained away via fiat or magic item. If he is a wizard, than why does he fight the Balrog with a sword instead of with spells? Explaining that by saying "Well, Glamdring is really, really, powerful, is somewhat ridiculous".

Yes I did. Native Outside or Native Outsider + Sorcerer Levels. You'll note that Gandalf does use spells against the Balrog, he calls up a sheet of flame and smashes the bridge with his staff. Also, given the strength of the Balrog's earlier counter spell, I am not sure how beneficial aggressive magic would be directly deployed against it and Gandalf himself is 'already weary'. Still, the battle upon Celebdil seems to not have been a matter of only swords.


Your POV is equally unsupported by anything in the books.

Nor is yours, which is rather the point.

kemmotar
2007-11-23, 03:23 PM
Well..first of all...gandalf and the balrog's fight took a week maybe more(i don't remember from the book exatly) and only one round of it took place on the bridge...maybe two. He fell in a bottomless pit and survived (fly, levitate?) as it was said, he also sealed a door so the goblins couldn't get to them before they crossed the bridge over the lava. For shadowfax he only needs a few ranks in ride...the horse is magical...its the king of horses not an animal companion or a mount. Its an intelligent animal with amazing speed and magic running in its blood...

Also, after Karadhras he came down quite easilly compared to the fact that they all had so much trouble going up...He also makes fireworks (probably enhanced with magic too...remember the dragon firework at Bilbo's party). Also, he has to conceal the fact that he is a Maia coming from the west lands...or at least he does as does every single elf. Also stating glamdring as a "normal" +5 with +5 porperties sword doesn't do it justice...it's most probably an artifact as is the ring of fire and it's not exactly a low magic world...Also you have to account for the fact that magic doesn't necessarily work like it does in D&D..Unlike most battles it's a battle of the mind..otherwise they would be spamming finger of death or some such at each other in the fight between saruman and gandalf...maybe some kind of detect thoughts+telepathy+phantasmal killer spell variant that kills and/or controls the other by taking over his mind with a gradual round by round opposed will saves (kinda like grappling). Also, when he rides against the nazgul when they're coming to minas tirith he does have the curious light coming from his staff that either repels, weakens or damages undead or evil outsiders(ie nazgul, sauron etc). Also, he isn't a bard or rogue so he can't use items like the palantir without being a caster himself(since he doesn't have UMD)...

Also, some abilities have to be justified through race. Good outsider probably, lots of + to stats wis, int, cha and str mostly...Also note that his staff changes from a gnarled staff to a white really cool looking staff when he changes to from grey to white...So we have to assume that it also grants some power since it is somehow connected to his power/alignment/purpose...saruman's staff was black by the time we see him...Also the fact that saruman is not surprised from the use of fire magic means that it does not stem from the ring of fire(as previously pointed out)...maybe increased caster level for fire magic, fire resistance/immunity and some other neat abilities we know nothing of...remember they were artifacts and the most powerful among the rings given from the elves to the other races. Fire can also represent courage or sacrifice thus bolstering his allies(bard or marshal auras?). The ring given to galandriel also kept a whole forest alive and filled with magic for, what is probably, millenia...it grew and grew and never decayed...The other was held by elrond(unless i'm mistaken) so if you simple think of the status of the other two ring bearers in the whole story you can see how much power they might or should have...Also, the can grant immortality(though mortal races suffer- bilbo wearing the one ring) but then spreads the life of the bearer so thin that it barely matters until they become nazgul (?) or some kind of undead...remember gollum used to be a halfling and lived for quite a long time...though that's the one ring. It seems to me that they should at least share some common abilities and then have individual abilities each. A paladin doesn't really fit to gandalf in my mind...I mean okay he is valiant etc but seems more like chaotic good than lawful good or at least not paladin-like lawful good..

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 03:45 PM
I don't buy into the "every character in middle earth is 5th level or lower*" idea. However, the Paladin class covers everything that Gandalf does in the books, with the exception of :

-fire based abilities (he gets those from the ring of fire)
-breaking Saruman's staff
-using a word of power to seal a door in Moria

He couldn't break Saruman's spell on Theoden as a low-level paladin, but Break Enchantment is a 4th level paladin spell, which would do the trick.


*If you want to discuss this issue, start another thread. I just wanted to clarify that the 6th level line is a poke at the Dragon mag. article of a similar name.

I'm not exactly an LotR aficionado, but isn't Gandalf some sort of unique race? Anything that doesn't fit you can throw in as a spell-like or custom feat =P

AKA_Bait
2007-11-23, 03:46 PM
If Gandalf is a Paladin and used Break Enchantment off the Paladin list... wouldn't he have to be level 15 rather than 6?

Also, are we forgetting his speak with Animals bit?

If we want to stat out Gandalf, which I think doesn't work any better than the attempt to stat out Aragon since classes in middle earth are not like classes in D&D (if there are classes at all), we are going to end up with a really odd conglomeration of abilities across several classes, and subtracting a few features of other ones as well.

If we want to assign a level, we should ask ourselves the better question of at what level could a character be expected to solo a Balor if we take away most of a Balor's spell like abilities. I would think at least level 10.

Crow
2007-11-23, 03:49 PM
Lord of the Rings runs under the Shadowrun 3rd edition ruleset. I swear.

Ponce
2007-11-23, 04:37 PM
Lord of the Rings runs under the Shadowrun 3rd edition ruleset. I swear.

QFT. That said, I personally believe Gandalf's abilities are well replicated by a Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Besides, if he was a DnD wizard, he'd have just cast shivering touch on the Balrog and that'd have been the end of it! :smallbiggrin:

Renegade Paladin
2007-11-23, 04:47 PM
By all the (scant) evidence in Tolkien's writings, Narya's powers were to inflame and inspire others (a sort of "inner fire," if you will), not to literally grant fire magic to the wielder.

Turcano
2007-11-23, 04:51 PM
Besides, if he was a DnD wizard, he'd have just cast shivering touch on the Balrog and that'd have been the end of it! :smallbiggrin:

Instead of casting hold portal?

Ponce
2007-11-23, 05:23 PM
Instead of casting hold portal?

What would casting that accomplish?

Matthew
2007-11-23, 05:32 PM
I think you've missed the part in the book where Gandalf casts a Hold Portal type Spell against the Balrog... he follows it up with a Word of Command.

Ponce
2007-11-23, 05:47 PM
I think you've missed the part in the book where Gandalf casts a Hold Portal type Spell against the Balrog... he follows it up with a Word of Command.

He did, but as I recall, it didn't work. Not for long enough. 3d6 dex damage, on the other hand...

The_Werebear
2007-11-23, 05:59 PM
My personal view is that Gandalf the Grey is a Bard. Most of what he does is trickery and persuasion, magical and mundane. He knows huge amounts of random facts about everything. He inspires others by his mere presence. Use Magic Device explains how he has fire powers; they are drawn from his staff and from the Ring of Fire. For the flashes and bangs, the bard's illusion repertoire is more than enough. Just about every effect he produces, actually, can be explained as a bard spell.

Even Shadowfax. Phantom Steed.

Assuming the others are using the Alexandrian view of 5th level cap, I would put him at 7th, as he is well above the "human limit" and is restraining himself even further.

Matthew
2007-11-23, 05:59 PM
He did, but as I recall, it didn't work. Not for long enough. 3d6 dex damage, on the other hand...

I doubt that Spell exists in Tolkien's Home Brew LotR Campaign World, it's not even core. :smallbiggrin: Still, the Balrog appears to have some sort of kick ass Counter Spell ability, so I wouldn't recommend casting anything directly at it...

Ponce
2007-11-23, 06:07 PM
I doubt that Spell exists in Tolkien's Home Brew LotR Campaign World, it's not even core. :smallbiggrin: Still, the Balrog appears to have some sort of kick ass Counter Spell ability, so I wouldn't recommend casting anything directly at it...

Fair enough, though I wouldn't recommend trying to whack it with a sword. In a robe. :smallcool:

blue chicken
2007-11-23, 06:28 PM
Battle sorcerer, perhaps with levels in bard? There you get inspiration, limited spellcasting, and some combat ability. Between that and a host of magical items, you might be SOMEWHERE in the right neighborhood. Probably racial templates and abilities thrown in there too, just like everyone else said.

The_Werebear
2007-11-23, 07:06 PM
Spell list for Gandalf as a Bard
0
Dancing Light
Daze
Flare
Light
Message (?) (I am sure he uses an effect like this somewhere)
Prestidigitation
Lullaby (Good at slipping by people, though not with drowsinesses. Still, close enough)
1
Ventriloquism
Obscure Object
Identify
Feather Fall
2
Animal Messenger
Pyrotechnics
Minor Image
Cure Moderate Wounds
3
Phantom Steed
Scrying

Effects not performable with these spells
Produce Flame (the pinecones, firelighting)
Lightning Bolt/Call Lightning (against Goblins)
Whatever he did to sunder the Bridge
Sunbeam/Sunburst/Turn Undead against the Nazgul.

Note that these were only done once, leading me to believe that Gandalf has Perform: Miracle for his bardic perform skill. Either that, or they were power slipping from his true form. Either way, they aren't constant things.

Some alternate spells possible: Charm Person, Cause Fear, Detect Secret Doors, Lesser Confusion, Hypnotism, Remove Fear, Silent Image, Calm Emotions, Daze Monster, Enthrall, Heroism, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility(not true invisibility, but being hard to notice when he doesn't want to be like in the Goblin Cave), Heroism, Tongues, Whispering Wind, Confusion, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Glibness, Good Hope, Remove Curse, Secret Page, Speak with Animals.

DiabolicalFurby
2007-11-23, 07:49 PM
Gandalf the Bard.

This idea amusing me greatly. :smallbiggrin:

puppyavenger
2007-11-23, 09:36 PM
I just go with weakest possible avatar of a minor demigod.

Draz74
2007-11-23, 11:29 PM
I like the Bard theory, though I think Shadowfax is not merely a Phantom Steed (I'm pretty sure he can fight).

So I say:

mid-level Old Aasimar Paladin/Bard with the Devoted Performer feat (so he can be a lawful bard), as well as items that are ridiculously good beyond WBL: Staff of the Magi and Ring of Elemental (Fire) Command.

Regardless of his class and level, I think Aasimar actually models his "race" quite well. Yes, I know he's a Maiar sent into the world and all that ... but that's what we call a backstory. His actual abilities (with the limitations put on him as he is "made to take the shape of an old man") and traits are well-described by the Aasimar mechanics.

Jayabalard
2007-11-24, 12:25 AM
Ring of Elemental (Fire) Command.This doesn't make any sense... there is really nothing to suggest that Narya has anything in common with a ring of elemental command. It was given to Gandalf to allow him to "rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."

The Professor
2007-11-24, 12:37 AM
I think I agree with Matthew.

Decent in combat? Uses a sword?

Sounds right up the alley of an Outsider (native) to me. Just give him a few magic items, and some cool Supernatural abilities, and voila! Gandalf!

Idea Man
2007-11-24, 12:38 AM
Doesn't Gandalf have some kind of invisibility or teleport? Maybe locate person, also. He came and left the dwarves and Bilbo by way of magic, and made his exit by way of magic, if I recall. Locate person would be neccessary if he arrived by phantom steed, but didn't know exactly where they were.

I think he also arrived quite by surprise in the goblin king's throne room.

Suzuro
2007-11-24, 01:31 AM
Hmm, this is interesting, I don't actually read Lord of the Rings, but I would have to go with at least some Paladin levels.

-Suzuro

Aquillion
2007-11-24, 02:31 AM
Don't forget that, per the books, many of Gandalf's powers are pretty specifically shown to be derived or contingent on his staff. He refuses to give it up even after telling Aragorn to surrender Andril, after all, and when Saruman's staff is broken he loses all of his powers beyond his voice. It is reasonable to assume that the same is true for Gandalf: Everything that doesn't come from Narya or some other object, except a few innate qualities of his race (like the voice), is dependent somehow on his staff.

Draz74
2007-11-24, 02:32 AM
This doesn't make any sense... there is really nothing to suggest that Narya has anything in common with a ring of elemental command. It was given to Gandalf to allow him to "rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."

Yeah, fair enough. Narya would realistically be more like a unique homebrew artifact, with powerful plot effects but little in the way of flashy in-combat use.

Staff of the Magi, though, was based on Gandalf's staff as surely as the Ranger class was based on Aragorn. (Which means "not exactly taken straight out of the book," but definitely influenced.)

namo
2007-11-24, 04:57 AM
Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge (allowing him to get spells off the sorc/wiz spell list), using Perform (Oratory) with the Disguise Spell and Soothe the Beast feats.

Ossian
2007-11-24, 07:51 AM
I cast my vote on a Native Outsider 100%!
As for the classes, good pick COULD be a Bard 1st (to start with a good range of skill points and class skills, ranging from magic per se to cultures, places, songs and so on) Sorcerer 6 (to be a decently competent spell caster). Sorcerer 6 gets 3rd level spells, and Gandalf has a very high charisma score (good for the bard too) that gives him plenty extra spells. Possibly another level or 2 in a PrC or in plain old Druid. (woodland stride, trackless step and wild empathy are OK with the ever roaming and very Wise gray wizard. Some divine spells (especially healing) and keep Shadowfax as an Animal Companion. I'd go as high as druid 6th for more divine spells and "Devotion" to Shadowfax, but the Wild Shape is just ridiculous. That should be swapped with something else. On the other hand, being a Cleric of 1st level gives you power over the undeads (good with his high charisma) and paladin

So, SOMEWHERE near
Human Native Outsider
Bard 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Druid 6

OR

Druid 2 / Sorcerer 6 / Cleric 1 / Paladin 5 (and you get Shadowfax as Pal's Mount, no 'summoning like a pokemon)

Items: they are all very peculiar and powerful. Probably you'd call them broken if they were in a D&D campaign.
Narya: affects mostly the bardic ability (inspire and lead by example, stout heart, infallible will) and perhaps some fire resistance/endurance. Possibly a charisma boos.

Staff of the Istari: tricky. That could be anything. A catalyst and a spell booster, I'd say that it could just replace ALL material components of Gandalf's spells (that is, without it, he's in trouble if a spell has a M comp.). Maybe +1 to caster levels of ALL spellcasting classes (druid, sorcerer, cleric, bard....) i.e. extra spells per level, and the access to STILL SPELL, SILENT SPELL and QUICKENED SPELLS as long as he is holding it.

Glamdring: +3 longsword, bane of enemies (that is, +2 VS everyone), or more simply a +5 longsword that deals +2d6 extra damahe, and is lawfully aligned. It is elvish, and probably "adamantine" (as mithril came in a later stage), "keen" (threatens on a 18-20) and of "mighty cleaving". It can also locate "servants of the dark forces" just like the other elven blades of old could.

Uh...perhaps we're getting closer to the target? Well, it's an interesting number crunching challenge all the same.

O.

graymachine
2007-11-24, 08:03 AM
He's a cleric 20. Or a wizard 20. Or, possibly a hillbilly 20. He functions as a plot-hammer 20 and only exists to get the extremely poor writing to advance back up to it's dreary, hobbling pace again. Attempting to apply levels to him is like trying to give levels to Neo in the Matrix, using some sci-fi system. While it can be fun, it makes everyone feel in the end that they are engaging in some masturbatory nonsense.

Telonius
2007-11-24, 08:09 AM
My vote... Solar, polymorphed into the form of an old human. Levels of Bard would make a great deal of sense for fluff; all of the Maiar were present at the beginning of Middle Earth, and brought it into existence through song.

lord_khaine
2007-11-24, 08:20 AM
dont forget the scene in the forrest, where we first meet Gandalf the white, its a very long time since i read the book, but as i recall he burned up the arrows of legolas before they hit him.

Fishy
2007-11-24, 08:35 AM
He's a cleric 20. Or a wizard 20. Or, possibly a hillbilly 20. He functions as a plot-hammer 20 and only exists to get the extremely poor writing to advance back up to it's dreary, hobbling pace again. Attempting to apply levels to him is like trying to give levels to Neo in the Matrix, using some sci-fi system. While it can be fun, it makes everyone feel in the end that they are engaging in some masturbatory nonsense.

QF Freakin' T. What people forget is that Gandalf is not a character. He's the Merlin. It's his job to show up and say things that are true. He sets the actual characters in motion, and bails them out when he needs it. He doesn't have a personality, he doesn't have motivations, he doesn't behave in anything resembling a logical manner, and that's okay, because that's not his job.

Ossian
2007-11-24, 10:20 AM
This thread is just an exercise. Like statting Feanor, Gatsu, Captain Harlock or Luke Skywalker. You're not going to use them, you won't need their stats because you won't be able to kill them. It's fun, that's why it gets done. It's number crunching, and exploring the function of ingame dynamics applied to D&D characters and other settings. I honestly liked the Plot Hammer 20, or the 20th level Scary as somebody statted the Skull Knight of Berserk.:smallsmile:
Being Merlin is not different from being king Arthur for the use you can make of both characters' stats. You don't kill them and they are there as plot devices.
Who needs stats for Leonidas and Achilles? Who cares if Yoda is 20th leel Unkillabe Jedi (PrC. Thus far Yoda has been the only jedi ever know to pass out for old age). Well, it's still fun, and since they belong to the same fantasy /space opera/scifi continuum of the player characters, it's fun to try and see how they can be represented.

Actually they even have a use, as they could be for this or that GM, a good power parameter to guide him in level progression.

You think it's fair that Boromir is 15th, Gandalf 30th and Sauron 76th? Ok, so you players are awesom by level 10 (non alexandrian)

Aragorn is level 5th? Also cool, your characters are awesome by level 4.

Since the systems seems to be so well made and internally consistent, it is also fun to test it trying to translate into numbers the characters that are a bit outside what is a "normal hero" (what an oxymoron), like Gandalf or Neo. Besides, there must be a reason why they are in all supplements or core manuals. Because some players drool over their stats, and dream of their PC becoming, one day, better than BAMF Windu with the lightsaber. If that makes them happy, why not?

O.

Beleriphon
2007-11-24, 10:45 AM
Don't forget that, per the books, many of Gandalf's powers are pretty specifically shown to be derived or contingent on his staff. He refuses to give it up even after telling Aragorn to surrender Andril, after all, and when Saruman's staff is broken he loses all of his powers beyond his voice. It is reasonable to assume that the same is true for Gandalf: Everything that doesn't come from Narya or some other object, except a few innate qualities of his race (like the voice), is dependent somehow on his staff.

The staff is a focus for Gandalf's spellcasting just like a holy symbol is required for most cleric spells in D&D, and by all accounts a staff will be required for certain spells in 4E.

Matthew
2007-11-24, 10:55 AM
Maybe, maybe not. It seems to me to be more than just a focus when Saruman has his broken. I don't think it's a source of power, but I do think that the symbolic breaking of the staff is a reflection of a more significant action. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if it were ever 'accidently' broken or lost.

hewhosaysfish
2007-11-24, 11:34 AM
Since the systems seems to be so well made and internally consistent...
:smalleek:
Good gods, man, don't you know where you are?! This is the GiantITP forum! Run! Run, before one of the regulars realises what you just said! We'll be knee deep in Batman-guano before you can blink!
Fly, you fool!

:smallsmile:

Sleet
2007-11-24, 12:20 PM
I'm in the half-celestial paladin 8 or 10/ sorcerer 4 camp, myself.

The_Werebear
2007-11-24, 02:00 PM
:smalleek:
Good gods, man, don't you know where you are?! This is the GiantITP forum! Run! Run, before one of the regulars realises what you just said! We'll be knee deep in Batman-guano before you can blink!
Fly, you fool!

:smallsmile:

Nah, I for one will leave him alone because this is only a statting exercise rather than a power level exercise.


On the Staff: I think Bard is a very good fit for another reason. It gives him Use Magic Device. The staff could have most of the spells he needs but can't access, and he is simply using the staff.

The problem is this. If I was playing a Gandalf like character, I would fluff it to say the powers were a result of the being a celestial channeled through the staff, whereas the crunch would be a Bard who dumped all his wealth on a Magebred Horse, a Custom fire based ring, an awesome sword, and a Staff of Power.

pinkbunny
2007-11-24, 02:19 PM
Here's a little support for the UMD/Staff/Bard ideas. (Note I haven't read the books in a looooong time, so this is off the movies) The fact that Grima is so appalled when gandalf still has his staff ("I TOLD you to take the wizard's staff!") and that he allways uses his staff to cast could be interpreted that it is the source rather than the focus of his wizardly might. Thus a UMDable artifact would work fine.

PS: This is further supported by Saruman's demotion to a mere thug(remember the shire) at the loss of his staff.

blue chicken
2007-11-24, 02:26 PM
Magical foci seem to be a little more important in LotR than they are in d20. When I read the books I got that feel that Tolkien was, for the most part, charting out new territory, and decided that staffs were a key part of the wizardly order...status symbol and focus all in one. I don't know that d20 can really model that. As much as I retch at the comparison, it seems almost like the Harry Potter universe, in that wizards have an innate conduit to reserves of magic, but they can't channel it much at all without their wand/staff to focus the power.

Just thoughts, of course. I also kind of like the bard idea. Gandalf Stormcrow? How much bardier can one of your titles get?

Ossian
2007-11-24, 02:28 PM
:smalleek:
Good gods, man, don't you know where you are?! This is the GiantITP forum! Run! Run, before one of the regulars realises what you just said! We'll be knee deep in Batman-guano before you can blink!
Fly, you fool!
:smallsmile:

LOL, I realized it only a second too late. Well, come what may, I still say that d20 is consistent. Not unflawed, granted, but a good approximation. For those 2 very reasons, there are thousands and thousands of threads, perhaps hundreds of thousands if you sum WOTC, GITP and a few other boards. This says to me that the system works and is open to many many fixes, which are what some of us find most amusing. Even if you cut out all the "two Weapon fighting" threads and the "How many [weak class] can a 20th level [class the OP loves] kill before he has to go to the toilet?", those 3 threads left are still good food for thought.

Anyway, back OT, I was wondering if there is an episode in the books where Gandalf casts at least a minor spell without holding his staff. I'd also guess that the staff itself can be replaced in some way. No evidence in the books mind you, but otherwise G. would be a bit too dependant on the artifact. So, unless the staff was broken and ownership of its powers revoked by the high ranks of the Order (as for Saruman) G. should be able to replace his without spending the ridiculous amounts of money listed in the manual.

I agree on the Bard too, but only as a starting class, for the many skill points and skills set. One or two levels are more than enough.

O.

Chronos
2007-11-24, 03:27 PM
PS: This is further supported by Saruman's demotion to a mere thug(remember the shire) at the loss of his staff.I think you're misunderstanding what happened, there. Saruman lost his powers because Gandalf revoked his authority. The breaking of the staff is just a symbol of that revokation of authority. It's like when an officer gets dishonorably discharged, his sword is broken. People won't follow his orders any more, but that doesn't mean that the sword is what enables him to give orders. If his sword were broken in a fight or accident, he'd be able to get a new one, and he'd still be able to give orders.

Anyway, back OT, I was wondering if there is an episode in the books where Gandalf casts at least a minor spell without holding his staff.I don't think he holds onto his staff while smoking, and he does some neat Prestidigitations with smoke rings. Good enough for you?

Ossian
2007-11-24, 04:45 PM
I don't think he holds onto his staff while smoking, and he does some neat Prestidigitations with smoke rings. Good enough for you?

It qualifies! So, what do we add then? the Chill out with Style feat?
:smallbiggrin:

boomwolf
2007-11-24, 05:10 PM
You are aware you made even more spam right?


Back to topic.

I think high level paladin+several high-edge items can close all of gandalf's abilitys.
Sunbeam? turn undead.
Good swordfight? high BAB.
Minor healing? paladin spells.
The horse? paladin mount.

Unless I am missing something, high level paladin with powerful homebrew magic items solves it all. (and I am referring to the ring of fire.)

Ponce
2007-11-24, 05:49 PM
He certainly likes his staff. He also knows about any sort of arcana that comes his way... It seems that no one in LotR has "magic" per say, but merely can invoke it from typically ancient magical items. Perhaps... artificer?

Matthew
2007-11-24, 05:54 PM
Doubtful. There is certainly magic going on in Middle Earth seperately from that drawn from items. Most of it, though, is 'natural, in the sense that it is not even understood to be magic by the practioners (such as the Elves). Saruman's voice, for instance, is certainly 'magical', but appears to require no item beyond the man himself.

Sleet
2007-11-24, 07:34 PM
He certainly likes his staff.

(tries valiantly to resist urge to make joke)

Multipurpose metamagic rod? Has that been proposed already?

Ponce
2007-11-24, 08:54 PM
Doubtful. There is certainly magic going on in Middle Earth seperately from that drawn from items. Most of it, though, is 'natural, in the sense that it is not even understood to be magic by the practioners (such as the Elves). Saruman's voice, for instance, is certainly 'magical', but appears to require no item beyond the man himself.

All true enough, but nevertheless, a lot of the magic actually employed by the characters seems to be oriented to fantastic artifacts. I don't think we can really distinguish between the items as foci for the characters' inherent abilities, or the items as inherently magical things where characters like Gandalf are only special in that they have the knowledge and knowhow to use them. Essentially, I think LotR might be some sort of low-magic setting.

Basically, Gandalf could be rather aptly replicated as just about anything with sufficient UMD, Knowledge (arcana), and spellcraft. Bardic Knowledge also works well, and I am fairly swayed by the idea. Keeping in mind, I don't think you can answer what Gandalf IS in DnD, but rather what build in DnD accurately represents him.


(tries valiantly to resist urge to make joke)

:smallbiggrin:

Lord_Kimboat
2007-11-24, 11:35 PM
Well I've been sucked into a lot of these. I think part of the problem people have with Gandalf is that while he acts like a spell caster, he doesn't really cast all that many spells.

Another problem is with the writing. While I'm a big fan of Mr Tolkien, there is a huge naivety that runs right through his work. In modern times we don't believe everything someone says just because they are a hero and do lots of good stuff.

I would be somewhat suspicious of someone who I saw fall and then find alive again later. Especially when he starts saying that basically he's on a first name basis with the gods and they decided to send him back because he's so uber. My suspicious mind would think that he somehow managed to stop his fall and then ran as fast as he could to get out of there! Occam's razor, which is more likely. He killed the Balrog and then the gods gave him a free res because he's such a nice guy? Or, he managed to survive somehow and ran away?

My suspicion is that he is actually a bard. He spends a lot of time talking to people, building up moral, and telling (tall) stories of his (unbelievable) exploits. Heck, he even performs smoke ring tricks, has prestidigitation and uses fireworks!

Ossian
2007-11-25, 05:24 AM
(tries valiantly to resist urge to make joke)

Multipurpose metamagic rod? Has that been proposed already?

Not sure if it is what I suggested, but my take was that the staff of the Istari grants

a) Quicken Spell, Silent Spell and Still Spell as if you had taken the feats yourself, no matter the prereqs (which gandalf may well have). More slots for other feats for tha gray wiz. memorization Cost is also 1 spell level lower than stated in the feat description. Perhaps also Enhance Spell or the epic Greater Enhance Spell, that is, Gandalf can, to some extent, power up his spell like the r-type beam weapon (by holding down the fire button your ship will....you know the rest)

b) All material components of spells that use them (we never see him reach for a pouch of magic dust)

OTOH, thanks for the advice on the post.:smallsmile: I never noticed the delete button (and the 'safety pin' above it). All posts are now shifted one position back, but I doubt anyone will lose sleep on that.



Boomwolf
Back to topic.

I think high level paladin+several high-edge items can close all of gandalf's abilitys.
Sunbeam? turn undead.
Good swordfight? high BAB.
Minor healing? paladin spells.
The horse? paladin mount.

Unless I am missing something, high level paladin with powerful homebrew magic items solves it all. (and I am referring to the ring of fire.)

Aye. But Paladin has very few skill ranks per level. Granted, G. has a high INT score and is himself a high level character, but I'd definitely say he needs a 1 or 2 levels dip in a class with the qualities to represent his constant roaming, learning, researching (he's a bit of an academic, and spends lots of time in libraries), coming and going as it pleases him, covering long distances without being that much fatigued and being at home in most kinds of wilde lands (hilly, forests, plains, mountains, and dungeons too). Ranger would do, but it would overlap with paladin for many things. I'd narrow it down to bard or druid. + Native Outsider (BAB = to fighter, d8 for HP and other nice things)



O.

Aquillion
2007-11-25, 12:56 PM
Doubtful. There is certainly magic going on in Middle Earth seperately from that drawn from items. Most of it, though, is 'natural, in the sense that it is not even understood to be magic by the practioners (such as the Elves). Saruman's voice, for instance, is certainly 'magical', but appears to require no item beyond the man himself.

Not sure if it is what I suggested, but my take was that the staff of the Istari grants
But when Saruman's staff is broken he seems to lose all magical abilities aside from the voice forever, to the point where in a single instant he goes from being one of the biggest players in Middle Earth to being someone who just isn't worth Gandalf's time (and who can be beaten by a group of alert Hobbits.) Gandalf also, as I noted, refuses to be parted from his staff even after ordering Aragon to give up Andril (which, as an essential piece of proof that he is the rightful king, is probably the most important non-magical object in Middle Earth.) I think it's fair to say that almost everything Gandalf has that doesn't come from one of his other magical items is in some fashion dependant on the staff.

Saruman's voice might just be him abusing his status as Maiar to 'talk down' to others; it might also, actually, be non-magical. Remember that no matter how he looks, he's older than the universe itself. You could probably learn to be very, very persuasive in that time; some political or religious leaders in our world have been described as almost magical in their charisma, and Saruman has had countless lifetimes to study the art.

Matthew
2007-11-25, 01:31 PM
But when Saruman's staff is broken he seems to lose all magical abilities aside from the voice forever, to the point where in a single instant he goes from being one of the biggest players in Middle Earth to being someone who just isn't worth Gandalf's time (and who can be beaten by a group of alert Hobbits.) Gandalf also, as I noted, refuses to be parted from his staff even after ordering Aragon to give up Andril (which, as an essential piece of proof that he is the rightful king, is probably the most important non-magical object in Middle Earth.) I think it's fair to say that almost everything Gandalf has that doesn't come from one of his other magical items is in some fashion dependant on the staff.

Sure, but the question is whether the breaking of the staff is symbolic of a revocation of his powers or whether the staff is itself the source of that power, as you might have read above. There's absolutely no indication in the books that the Staff is the source of Gandalf's power; indeed, there is an indication of quite the opposite, as when Gandalf discovers the true nature of the threat in Moria, he remarks "A Balrog," muttered Gandalf. " Now I understand." He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. "What an evil fortune! And I am already weary." One could take that to mean a number of things, but the most straight forward reading is that his power is related to his own physical being.
Would he be weaker without his staff? It seems likely, given his unwillingness to be parted from it, butr as Hama notes, "in the hands of a Wizard a staff may be more than a prop for age", not "the staff is the source of power of a wizard".


Saruman's voice might just be him abusing his status as Maiar to 'talk down' to others; it might also, actually, be non-magical. Remember that no matter how he looks, he's older than the universe itself. You could probably learn to be very, very persuasive in that time; some political or religious leaders in our world have been described as almost magical in their charisma, and Saruman has had countless lifetimes to study the art.

Maybe, maybe not. As has been noted on many occasions, magic in Middle Earth is generaly very subtle (leaving aside those instances where Gandalf shoots Goblins dead with Lightning Bolts!). The point isn't really that it is X, Y or Z, but that it can be interpreted many ways.

That said, I see no reason to think that Gandalf is reliant on his staff or ring to do magic. The Silmarillion tells us that 'great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand' (p. 361), and makes no mention of staves or rings.

Ossian
2007-11-25, 01:48 PM
I see the staff as more symbolic than practical. He only pretends to lean on it most of the time, or maybe he does lean and just does not need to do it anymore when he uncloaks his powers a bit more.

Point is, I saw the scene at Heorot...ehm, sorry, the Meduseld, a bit as if you had asked a well known Samurai to leave the Masamune katana at the door of a politician or a merchant. It's a tool, but also a status symbol. While Aragorn was stepping into the hall of another king, while hardly being a king himself, I don't think Gandalf would have accepted the same kind of deal. Not that he is too proud to lower himself to the king of rohan (all the contrary).
It's just that he know's he's an Istar, and dropping the staff isn't even an option. period. A bit like the samurai, he's a lot more effective and deadly with his signature "item", but he can also still "croak a small army with a pair of chopsticks" to quote Erfworld.

Stretching this a bit, you could apply it to Saruman too. With the difference that by the authority of the valar (voiced by Gandalf, now the White) he was being deprived of ALL powers but the voice (whch was seconda nature to him, and probably an acquired talent), symbolized by the shattering of the staff.

O.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-25, 01:52 PM
Granted, G. has a high INT score and is himself a high level character, but I'd definitely say he needs a 1 or 2 levels dip in a class with the qualities to represent his constant roaming, learning, researching (he's a bit of an academic, and spends lots of time in libraries), coming and going as it pleases him, covering long distances without being that much fatigued and being at home in most kinds of wilde lands (hilly, forests, plains, mountains, and dungeons too).

Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

Gandalf.... is a FACTOTUM?!?!?!

daggaz
2007-11-25, 02:38 PM
The staff is definitely symbolic (its high-end literature, for heavens sake!). Breaking it was just symbolic of Sauraman's will, and hence powers, being broken.

Paladin's_Wrath
2007-11-25, 08:19 PM
Oh the staff is most definitly symbolic. However, knowing Tolkein, I have no doubt that if I had half the patience required to read the Simirilien, there is a backstory for that staff and its powers. So both...?

I think Gandalf is a 5th or 6th level Paladin with a 1 level dip in the "Marshall" Prestige class. Just look at Helms deep, he is surrounded by a sort of white glow which inspires the good guys to win the battle. Not to mention the fact that with his sword it looks a good bit like he can 'Smite Evil'.

Maybe killing the Balrog gave him enough XP to get a level in marshall...lol

Still this is all pretty irrelevant seeing as Tolkein's world, while similar to D&D, is not actually D&D. So, by Tolkein's definition he is a wizard.

If you are looking at D&D as far as Tolkein goes, maybe none of the so called 'wizards' are really wizards. Whatshisname the Brown looks like a Druid to me, and Saruman a Wizard/Archivist or later a Wizard/Tainted Scholar. I don't know any of the other wizards though...

Is there anything in Tolkein that is not symbolic? I mean really, that man is a GOD. Seriously.

VanBuren
2007-11-25, 08:24 PM
Is there anything in Tolkein that is not symbolic? I mean really, that man is a GOD. Seriously.

Gimli? Sting? What about the Trolls and their talking purse?

JaxGaret
2007-11-25, 09:09 PM
Personally, I don't see any pressing need to give Gandalf any class levels at all. One could just as easily say that all of his wondrous abilities are inherent to his race. One could still try to figure out his ECL, but that's not necessarily going to be straightforward.

QFT. Gandalf is one of the Maiar, from which most or all of his abilities may derive.


Well yes, but that makes for a less interesting conversation.

You could say "If Gandalf had class levels (instead of deriving his powers from the Racial Hit Dice or Level Adjustment of being a Maia), I think that the Paladin class would cover his abilities quite nicely."

It is misleading to intimate that Gandalf must have class levels.

VanBuren
2007-11-25, 09:12 PM
Clearly, Gandalf is Elminster. Only, y'know, wearing white.

SpiderKoopa
2007-11-25, 10:31 PM
Clearly, Gandalf is Elminster. Only, y'know, wearing white.

Lol. Of course, why didn't I see it earlier?

Chronos
2007-11-25, 11:03 PM
If you are looking at D&D as far as Tolkein goes, maybe none of the so called 'wizards' are really wizards. Whatshisname the Brown looks like a Druid to me, and Saruman a Wizard/Archivist or later a Wizard/Tainted Scholar. I don't know any of the other wizards though...There are five Istari in total, but almost nothing is known of the last two, the Blue Wizards. Their names were Alatar and Pallado, and their missions sent them far into the East of the world, but it's not known whether or to what degree they succeeded.

There are also numerous other "magic users" in Middle Earth, but none of them work the same way as the Istari: Some of Sauron's higher-up lackeys (the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-King, at least) are versed in Sorcery, which is some form of black magic; the most powerful of the Elves are capable of feats which seem magical to us humans, but which are as natural as breathing to the Elves (such as Elrond's flooding of the fords); humans and dwarves in days gone by had wondrous technologies, the secrets of which are now lost and seem magical (such as the construction of the tower of Orthanc, impervious to the Ents' attack), and the ancestors of the Druadain (Ghan-buri-ghan's people) are said to have carved stone statues which could come to life to defend their people.

Oh, and there's no further explanation of the wizards' staves anywhere in Tolkien's writings, beyond what can be gleaned from Lord of the Rings.

Paladin's_Wrath
2007-11-26, 10:22 AM
Gimli? Sting? What about the Trolls and their talking purse?

I didn't mean that literally, :smallbiggrin:. I was just saying that Tolkein's depth of writing is very impressive, and I would say that the staves, sting, and all your above mentioned items all have meaning. Maybe not as symbols, but Tolkein did not do things without a purpose.

Gandalf as an Elminster...no thanks...

Imposing any class levels on Gandalf is really artificial anyway...

Thank you, Chronos for clearing that up by the way.

Telonius
2007-11-26, 11:01 AM
Well I've been sucked into a lot of these. I think part of the problem people have with Gandalf is that while he acts like a spell caster, he doesn't really cast all that many spells.

Another problem is with the writing. While I'm a big fan of Mr Tolkien, there is a huge naivety that runs right through his work. In modern times we don't believe everything someone says just because they are a hero and do lots of good stuff.

I would be somewhat suspicious of someone who I saw fall and then find alive again later. Especially when he starts saying that basically he's on a first name basis with the gods and they decided to send him back because he's so uber. My suspicious mind would think that he somehow managed to stop his fall and then ran as fast as he could to get out of there! Occam's razor, which is more likely. He killed the Balrog and then the gods gave him a free res because he's such a nice guy? Or, he managed to survive somehow and ran away?

My suspicion is that he is actually a bard. He spends a lot of time talking to people, building up moral, and telling (tall) stories of his (unbelievable) exploits. Heck, he even performs smoke ring tricks, has prestidigitation and uses fireworks!

This sounds like a "Behind the Music" in the making. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando were members of a 5-piece band. They split up awhile ago, possibly due to Gandalf's smoke habit. Alatar and Pallando went to the East and started touring as a duo, Saruman started experimenting with Death Metal, and Radagast retired to fund a charitable animal shelter. Sound about right?:smallbiggrin:

The_Werebear
2007-11-26, 11:21 AM
Except for this part- Gandalf found God after a near death experience involving a high speed collision with a Balrog. He ruined Saruman's career by smashing all of his equipment in a holy fury.

Lord_Kimboat
2007-11-27, 07:13 PM
This sounds like a "Behind the Music" in the making. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando were members of a 5-piece band. They split up awhile ago, possibly due to Gandalf's smoke habit. Alatar and Pallando went to the East and started touring as a duo, Saruman started experimenting with Death Metal, and Radagast retired to fund a charitable animal shelter. Sound about right?:smallbiggrin:

LOL :smallsmile:

Actually I'd give Gandalf ranks in 'story telling' or acting rather than music but I'm not against the idea.

However I think it's also significant that we only ever 'see' Saruman. Radagast is hinted at but no character even sees him. I'm guessing that Alatar and Pallando are in the Silmarillion or something as I've never heard of them. They could just have been made up by Gandalf and Saruman to give them some cred! Sort of like, "hey, even if you beat me, my pals Alatar and Pallandro will come by and pwn you!"

Charles Phipps
2007-11-27, 07:37 PM
I actually had Gandalf the Gray appear in one of our Planescape Games. Here was the stats I used for him and the stuff I wrote on the card.

Gandalf the Gray
Lawful Good Male Trumpet Archon Paladin 1/Wizard 16

Gandalf the Gray is a Celestial servant of the god Eru (LG Greater God of Creation) that lives at the top of Mount Celestia. Unlike most Archons, he takes a direct hand in the fate of the peoples on his home planet and does this by Shapechanging into a human form that he is especially vulnerable in.

Gandalf is unusual amongst wizards as he rarely packages large scale destructive magics. This is due to the fact that Gandalf is a subtle and sly fellow that prefers to inspire other mortals to heroism rather than turning them into bystanders in the conflict of good vs. evil. He is much more likely to use Ventriloquism and Phantom Steed than Fireball.

Another reason is that Gandalf is pathologically afraid of being caught unprepared by his more powerful enemies. Chief amongst Gandalf's foes are Morgoth (NE GG of Evil, Fire, and Destruction),Sauron (NE Demigod of Artifice, Orcs and Werewolves), and the Fallen Trumpet Archon Saruman (LE M Trumpet Archon Wizard 18). Thus, Gandalf always preserves his magic unless he is faced with a truly powerful foe. His ability to make use of subtle spells as well as dangerous ones is exemplified when he won the decidedly uneven contest against a Balor.

Gandalf wields Orcist the Foehammer (Mirthil Blade of Orc Detection and Slaying +4) and has the Minor Artifact in The Ring of Fire. This artifact results in a substantial strengthening of Gandalf's Magics and gives him immunity to most fire based effects.

Chronos
2007-11-27, 11:12 PM
However I think it's also significant that we only ever 'see' Saruman. Radagast is hinted at but no character even sees him. I'm guessing that Alatar and Pallando are in the Silmarillion or something as I've never heard of them.We, the readers, never see Radagast, but he's a friend of Beorn's. That's part of how Gandalf established his bona fides to Beorn in The Hobbit.

And there's an oblique reference to the Blue Wizards in Lord of the Rings: When Saruman is talking with Gandalf after the overthrow of Isengard, he says "What would you have from me next? The staves of the Five Wizards?" (or words to that effect: I'm away from my books at the moment). Since we know of three wizards, that leaves two more. But to get any more information on them at all (including their names), you have to go to Unfinished Tales. They aren't even mentioned in the Silmarillion, or any of the appendices.

EvilJames
2007-11-28, 12:04 AM
I'm pretty sure Merps put him as a 20ish level wizard but I don't have the books right now so I can't be sure.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-28, 12:20 AM
I'm pretty sure Merps put him as a 20ish level wizard but I don't have the books right now so I can't be sure.

I think something over the top like 36th Level.

Everything in MERPS basically translated to "Characters in Lord of the Rings are better than anyone else in all of D&D."

EvilJames
2007-11-28, 12:26 AM
36 sounds about right yeah

but him being 36th level doesn't make all LOTR characters unbeatable by any D&D character it's just that most of the d&d characters that could are wizards

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-28, 01:20 AM
36th level?!

I'm not part of the "LotR character are all level 1-5" camp, but I've never really thought of Gandalf as more than 12th-15th level. Or are MERPS levels a different scale?

Charles Phipps
2007-11-28, 01:33 AM
Merps accents the "Gandalf is 7000 years old" aspect.

And Elves are Badass while Gandalf is even more Badass than they are.