What if the Oracle was Lying

[Valynie]

While I doubt he would have been lying to Elan , he could have been lying to Belkar and would have reasons to .
Knowing that Belkar would kill him does not strike me as incitive to tell him the truth after all

[InvisibleBison]

The Oracle can't have been lying to Belkar, because the prophecy he gave to Belkar has subsequently come to pass.

[Manga Shoggoth]

We have no evidence whatsoever that the Oracle has been lying at all, and none that he has been lying to (or about) Belkar. In fact the Oracle seems to take a perverse pleasure in telling the truth in all circumstances, just in an obtuse and annoying manner as possible.

Here's the summary of the Oracular statements, which I have carefully saved from previous posts:




For my own edification, I did a little digging.

The Oracle makes statements about the future, and also answers straight questions as well. Here are all the Oracular statements that I cound find, on the record or not. Statements "on the record" are actual prophecies, and are required to come true at some point - these responses are bolded in the below:



IssueItemStatus


#329Offscreen: The Oracle predicted that one supplcant would die of a Heart Attack. Was sued by his family as a result and instituted the Test of the Heart as a precautionFulfilled


#329Belkar shouldn't bother funding his IRA (Oracle also explains why the memory charm is there)Pending


#330Where is Xykon/In his throne roomValid, albiet useless


#330Looking forward to the book publishing to understand HaleyValid, and slightly more useful


#330Two of you are running late for family reunionsFulfilled


#330Not accepting cheques as he has seen their futuresPending


#331How will I be returning to my homeland/PosthumouslyFulfilled after becoming a vampire


#331How will I achieve Ultimate Arcane Power/Right words to right person at the right time for the wrong reasonsDeal with the IIFC


#331(Presumably) How will I get my speech back/When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouthCulmination of date with Not-Elan


#331Will this story have a happy ending/Yes, for you at leastPending.


#331Do I get to cause the death of any of the following.../YesOracle killed by Belkar; other (possibly spurious) interpretations offered.


#331(Complex question to identify the next gate Xykon is aiming for/Girard's Gate (after trying to warn Roy that his question had a flaw in it)Fulfilled: Xykon went to Azure city first, then went to Giriad's gate.


#331Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw/Try ginko bilboaUnclear as we don't know the exact question.


#568Offscreen, the Oracle creates the village of Lickling as he knew he was going to be stabbed.Fulfilled


#571Offscreen, the Oracle arranges for a Raise Dead.Fulfilled


#571The Oracle arranges for a Ressurection on 26-Mar-1187 15:10.Pending


#572Several items about Belkar's end, including one "On the Record" so it would get through the memory charm (Unnecessarly, as it turns out).Pending


#572Important client flying inFulfilled (Black Dragon)


#628Offscreen, the Oracle provides V's name to the Black DragonCorrect


SOD page 23The "Ghost Dad" quip will be funnier laterUnclear, depends on your sense of humour


SOD page 23Who killed my master/XykonCorrect


SOD page 23The Oracle has a date with a hot chick and will be getting to second base.Unknown, and I really don't want to know...



So, we have:



13items Fullfilled or Correct


6Items Pending


3Items of unknown provinance


0Items known to be false



We have no evidence that the Oracle has lied about the future at any time, on or off the record. That's not to say he can't, just that he hasn't. The closest to this we have are:

The alternate interpretations given for Belkar's answer, and his question was wide open to interpretation.
The "The Oracle is Out" sign up when Xykon paid a call.
In #572, thinking that Ghost!Roy need an "on the record" prophecy to remember the comment about Belkar's death. (Being mistaken is not lying, and in this case he is not mistaken about prophecy, simply the effects of the memory charm)


Perhaps I should get out more often...


We have no evidence that the Oracle is lying about the future, and very little evidence that the Oracle has lied on screen (and most of that evidence is debatable).

On the other hand, every single statement about the future (on the record or not) is either fulfilled, yet to be fulfilled or of unknown provenance. Not one statement about the future has been proven false.

[Cuthalion]

The gingko bilboa seems like it's potentially been fulfilled; could be wanting to get V to remember Blackwing?

[Manga Shoggoth]

The gingko bilboa seems like it's potentially been fulfilled; could be wanting to get V to remember Blackwing?

It's a reasonable interpretation (and almost certianly true), but unless the Giant publishes a Raven to English dictionary (or a translation) I'm afraid it stays in "Unclear".

[hroþila]

To quote myself:

I think the interpretation of the "Ghost Dad" quip is wrong here: the Oracle didn't look into the future to see whether the joke would be funny, but to see that Eugene would indeed die and appear in the comic as a ghost. 100% correct.



Anyways,

he could have been lying to Belkar and would have reasons to .
Such as?

[Fyraltari]

The point of an oracle character is to provide foreshadowing of future plot developments and/or give characters information they couldn't access otherwise to move the plot along.

Lying oracles, unless we the audience already know they are lying and why, would void that purpose.

Ergo, the oracle may bend the truth, but never predict something utterly false.

[Peelee]

To quote myself:


I think the interpretation of the "Ghost Dad" quip is wrong here: the Oracle didn't look into the future to see whether the joke would be funny, but to see that Eugene would indeed die and appear in the comic as a ghost. 100% correct.
Agreed.

The point of an oracle character is to provide foreshadowing of future plot developments and/or give characters information they couldn't access otherwise to move the plot along.

Lying oracles, unless we the audience already know they are lying and why, would void that purpose.

Ergo, the oracle may bend the truth, but never predict something utterly false.

Agreed.

[Sir_Norbert]

Indeed. I've been accused of being a Belkar denialist before now for pointing out that we don't know the Oracle's prophecies will come true -- and I stand by that, it is possible for him to lie or be mistaken -- but from a narrative standpoint, the Oracle's function is clearly to give the reader teasing titbits of knowledge about the future of the story. There is no reason, at the moment, to suspect the prophecies to be anything other than straight.

[hungrycrow]

I'm not sure I understand Valynie's point. The Oracle can't have been lying in the prophecy he gave to Belkar, since that actually came true. And while it's possible that he's lying about Belkar dying, he keeps making that prediction when Belkar isn't there, so it isn't just to screw with Belkar.

[Synesthesy]

But in 572 the oracle was sure that Ghost Roy would forget everything, while he did not. Here the Oracle was wrong.

And my thought is that the Oracle didn't lie about Belkar's death, but that he was wrong for some reason. Narrative good reasons.

[Ruck]

But in 572 the oracle was sure that Ghost Roy would forget everything, while he did not. Here the Oracle was wrong.

That's been covered:


(Being mistaken is not lying, and in this case he is not mistaken about prophecy, simply the effects of the memory charm)

[hroþila]

But in 572 the oracle was sure that Ghost Roy would forget everything, while he did not. Here the Oracle was wrong.
He can only know stuff he specifically looks into. As Roy said, if the Oracle didn't bother checking whether Roy would forget everything, then he wouldn't actually know no matter how cocky he was. It isn't a case of his powers failing him any more than being interrupted by visitors mid-bath. The Oracle clearly wanted Roy to know that Belkar will die soon, and he wanted him out of the way before the Black Dragon arrived. Whether or not Roy would remember anything else was not important.

Granted, this can be a bit circular, as unofficial statements about the future are considered valid, correct prophecies when they come to pass, but this one comment about the future ("you'll forget everything else once you pass through the Memory Charm") is dismissed as not a true prophecy because it didn't come to pass. But it's like 1 vs 20. And if we want to be pedantic, the Oracle's statement is correct - Roy will forget everything if he goes through the charm again.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Oracle clearly wanted Roy to know that Belkar will die soon, and he wanted him out of the way before the Black Dragon arrived. Whether or not Roy would remember anything else was not important. That makes sense to me.

Granted, this can be a bit circular, as unofficial statements about the future are considered valid, correct prophecies when they come to pass, but this one comment about the future ("you'll forget everything else once you pass through the Memory Charm") is dismissed as not a true prophecy because it didn't come to pass. But it's like 1 vs 20. And if we want to be pedantic, the Oracle's statement is correct - Roy will forget everything if he goes through the charm again.
FWIW, I seriously doubt that Rich tied himself into mental knots over this as he put the scenes together, so I wonder at what value accrues in doing so post hoc?
My initial thought as I read the OP was "it doesn't matter" since even when the Oracle was dead right (Roy's question vis a vis the next gate Xykon was headed towards) it hardly helped the Order.

[brian 333]

The Oracle didn't predict Roy would forget. That comes with a light show and a green speech bubble. The Oracle assumed Roy's exit would be through the charm and that it would work. It was wrong. Still, every prediction given except Blackwing's and Elan's has proven true. We have no follow-up on Blackwing's issue, and Elan's has a way to go before we can judge it's accuracy.

[Peelee]

The Oracle didn't predict Roy would forget. That comes with a light show and a green speech bubble.

I will forever contend that this is incorrect. The entire purpose of the memory charm is because the Oracle is rather chatty and lets soothsayings slip in casual conversation. The light show and green speech bubble only affect the text with regards to the memory charm.

That being said, the Oracle only knows the future of what he has actively looked into, and he probably didn't look into whether Roy would remember that conversation. So I do agree it is still not a "prediction", just banter that he was wrong about.

[TaiLiu]

It's a reasonable interpretation (and almost certianly true), but unless the Giant publishes a Raven to English dictionary (or a translation) I'm afraid it stays in "Unclear".
First: thank you for taking the time to compile all of that! It seems like it must've taken a lot of effort.

Rich mentioned this in the PDF edition of War and XPs:
As of the exact moment that I am writing this little orange box, every formal (green-balloon) prophecy from #331 has come to pass except for Elan’s.

So it seems like we have good reason to assume that Blackwing's prophecy has come true.

[Ruck]

First: thank you for taking the time to compile all of that! It seems like it must've taken a lot of effort.

Rich mentioned this in the PDF edition of War and XPs:
As of the exact moment that I am writing this little orange box, every formal (green-balloon) prophecy from #331 has come to pass except for Elan’s.

So it seems like we have good reason to assume that Blackwing's prophecy has come true.

Huh, good catch. I thought perhaps the "try ginkgo biloba" was an aside, but I checked #331 and, nope, it's a full-on green-balloon prophecy.

[Crimsonmantle]

I will forever contend that this is incorrect. The entire purpose of the memory charm is because the Oracle is rather chatty and lets soothsayings slip in casual conversation. The light show and green speech bubble only affect the text with regards to the memory charm.

That being said, the Oracle only knows the future of what he has actively looked into, and he probably didn't look into whether Roy would remember that conversation. So I do agree it is still not a "prediction", just banter that he was wrong about.
This has presumably been pointed out by some other pedant in some other thread I haven't read, but there is a third option:
It is a prediction and it hasn't come true yet. Roy will forget all about that visit and the next one once he passes through the memory charm, which he hasn't done yet.

Would be hilarious, but I'm not really buying it either.

[Synesthesy]

He can only know stuff he specifically looks into. As Roy said, if the Oracle didn't bother checking whether Roy would forget everything, then he wouldn't actually know no matter how cocky he was. It isn't a case of his powers failing him any more than being interrupted by visitors mid-bath. The Oracle clearly wanted Roy to know that Belkar will die soon, and he wanted him out of the way before the Black Dragon arrived. Whether or not Roy would remember anything else was not important.

Granted, this can be a bit circular, as unofficial statements about the future are considered valid, correct prophecies when they come to pass, but this one comment about the future ("you'll forget everything else once you pass through the Memory Charm") is dismissed as not a true prophecy because it didn't come to pass. But it's like 1 vs 20. And if we want to be pedantic, the Oracle's statement is correct - Roy will forget everything if he goes through the charm again.

I just say that A) being wrong doesn't mean lying, I don't believe the Oracle has ever lied, but I believe he can be wrong sometimes and B) the fact that he was wrong about Roy forgetting everything means that he CAN be wrong sometimes. From my own point of view (that I know it isn't the general consensus, but I still write it because I believe in it and because this way I will be able to put a giant "TOLD YOU" in my signature in the case I was right) the fact that the Oracle was wrong about Roy is enough foreshadowing for him being wrong about Belkar. It would be accetable by me. After all, Roy's explanation is simple but Roy surely can be wrong. Then, if the Oracle and Roy were right and I was wrong, well, everything goes as you people are explaining in this pages and it's fine to me :)

[Manga Shoggoth]

Rich mentioned this in the PDF edition of War and XPs:
As of the exact moment that I am writing this little orange box, every formal (green-balloon) prophecy from #331 has come to pass except for Elan’s.

So it seems like we have good reason to assume that Blackwing's prophecy has come true.

Thank you TaiLiu - I'll update my notes accordingly for the next time this comes up.

(It doesn't appear to be in my print version - or at least I can't see it - perhaps it went in to the second edition).




For my own edification, I did a little digging.

The Oracle makes statements about the future, and also answers straight questions as well. Here are all the Oracular statements that I cound find, on the record or not. Statements "on the record" are actual prophecies, and are required to come true at some point - these responses are bolded in the below:



IssueItemStatus


#329Offscreen: The Oracle predicted that one supplcant would die of a Heart Attack. Was sued by his family as a result and instituted the Test of the Heart as a precautionFulfilled


#329Belkar shouldn't bother funding his IRA (Oracle also explains why the memory charm is there)Pending


#330Where is Xykon/In his throne roomValid, albiet useless


#330Looking forward to the book publishing to understand HaleyValid, and slightly more useful


#330Two of you are running late for family reunionsFulfilled


#330Not accepting cheques as he has seen their futuresPending


#331How will I be returning to my homeland/PosthumouslyFulfilled: Durkon returns home as a vampire (he gets better...)


#331How will I achieve Ultimate Arcane Power/Right words to right person at the right time for the wrong reasonsFulfilled: Deal with the IIFC


#331(Presumably) How will I get my speech back/When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouthFulfilled: Culmination of date with Not-Elan


#331Will this story have a happy ending/Yes, for you at leastPending.


#331Do I get to cause the death of any of the following.../YesFulfilled: Oracle killed by Belkar; other (possibly spurious) interpretations offered.


#331(Complex question to identify the next gate Xykon is aiming for/Girard's Gate (after trying to warn Roy that his question had a flaw in it)Fulfilled: Xykon went to Azure city first, then went to Giriad's gate.


#331Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw/Try ginko bilboaFulfilled: TaiLiu notes that the PDF of War and XPs has a note that all the #331 prophecies except Elan's have now come true. The details are unclear as we don't know the exact question, however the question is generally assumed to be along the lines of "How can I make Vaarsuvius remember me".


#568Offscreen, the Oracle creates the village of Lickling as he knew he was going to be stabbed.Fulfilled


#571Offscreen, the Oracle arranges for a Raise Dead.Fulfilled


#571The Oracle arranges for a Ressurection on 26-Mar-1187 15:10.Pending


#572Several items about Belkar's end, including one "On the Record" so it would get through the memory charm (Unnecessarly, as it turns out).Pending


#572Important client flying inFulfilled (Black Dragon)


#628Offscreen, the Oracle provides V's name to the Black DragonCorrect


SOD page 23The "Ghost Dad" quip will be funnier laterUnclear, depends on your sense of humour


SOD page 23Who killed my master/XykonCorrect


SOD page 23The Oracle has a date with a hot chick and will be getting to second base.Unknown, and I really don't want to know...



So, we have:



15items Fullfilled or Correct


5Items Pending


2Items of unknown provinance


0Items known to be false



We have no evidence that the Oracle has lied about the future at any time, on or off the record. That's not to say he can't, just that he hasn't. The closest to this we have are:

The alternate interpretations given for Belkar's answer. Not only was the question was wide open to interpretation, the explanations were eerily simillar to various theories put forward by the fanbase, in increasing order of unlikleyness.
The "The Oracle is Out" sign up when Xykon paid a call.
In #572, thinking that Ghost!Roy need an "on the record" prophecy to remember the comment about Belkar's death. (Being mistaken is not lying, and in this case he is not mistaken about prophecy, simply the effects of the memory charm)


Perhaps I should get out more often...


We have no evidence that the Oracle is lying about the future, and very little evidence that the Oracle has lied on screen (and most of that evidence is debatable).

On the other hand, every single statement about the future (on the record or not) is either fulfilled, yet to be fulfilled or of unknown provenance. Not one statement about the future has been proven false.

[pearl jam]

the pdf versions do have some additions so that's entirely possible.

[InvisibleBison]

I just say that A) being wrong doesn't mean lying, I don't believe the Oracle has ever lied, but I believe he can be wrong sometimes and B) the fact that he was wrong about Roy forgetting everything means that he CAN be wrong sometimes. From my own point of view (that I know it isn't the general consensus, but I still write it because I believe in it and because this way I will be able to put a giant "TOLD YOU" in my signature in the case I was right) the fact that the Oracle was wrong about Roy is enough foreshadowing for him being wrong about Belkar. It would be accetable by me. After all, Roy's explanation is simple but Roy surely can be wrong. Then, if the Oracle and Roy were right and I was wrong, well, everything goes as you people are explaining in this pages and it's fine to me :)

You're comparing apples to oranges here. The Oracle wasn't making a prediction when he said that the memory charm would cause Roy to forget everything he'd heard, so whether or not he was wrong then has no bearing on whether or not he can be wrong when making a prediction.

[ziproot]

Thank you TaiLiu - I'll update my notes accordingly for the next time this comes up.

(It doesn't appear to be in my print version - or at least I can't see it - perhaps it went in to the second edition).




We have no evidence that the Oracle is lying about the future, and very little evidence that the Oracle has lied on screen (and most of that evidence is debatable).

On the other hand, every single statement about the future (on the record or not) is either fulfilled, yet to be fulfilled or of unknown provenance. Not one statement about the future has been proven false.


I count 5 pending prophecies. It appears like you said there were 6.

[Synesthesy]

You're comparing apples to oranges here. The Oracle wasn't making a prediction when he said that the memory charm would cause Roy to forget everything he'd heard, so whether or not he was wrong then has no bearing on whether or not he can be wrong when making a prediction.

Yes, but many times the Oracle did speak about the future as he knew it (and he did) without the needing of an official prophecy. For example, when he explains to Hailey how he could understand her, or when he scheduled the next raise dead, or when he told Roy that an important client, aka the black dragon, was coming in.

I may be wrong, but I always understood that the prophecy magic effect was connected to the memory charm, and it wasn't needed at all for the Oracle to watch the future. And in fact, the Oracle shows ALWAYS a perfect knowledge of the future everytime he speaks, except for Roy remembering everything, until now.

[Quizatzhaderac]

My personal interpretation is that the formal prophecies must all be statements of fact (an that the oracle's intent or ignorance can't prevent that).

The rest of the time he's a regular person with special knowledge. That is to say, usually not lying, with the reader eventually learning what any lies were and why.

While I doubt he would have been lying to Elan , he could have been lying to Belkar and would have reasons to .
Knowing that Belkar would kill him does not strike me as incitive to tell him the truth after allI'm pretty strongly in the "The oracle is untrustworthy" camp, but I don't really see any reason for the Oracle to lie about Belkar's death.

We have no evidence whatsoever that the Oracle has been lying at all, and none that he has been lying to (or about) Belkar. In fact the Oracle seems to take a perverse pleasure in telling the truth in all circumstances, just in an obtuse and annoying manner as possible.Not in the formal prophecies, but he has lied in the strictest sense.

At the start of #567 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) he claims Belkar's prophecy was already fulfilled, while that prophecy was fulfilled at the end of that same strip. (and he even admits with his dying breath that he didn't believe what he was saying at the beginning of the strip).

[Manga Shoggoth]

I count 5 pending prophecies. It appears like you said there were 6.

Yup - the correct/fulfilled count was also out. I'm very tired this evening, which plays havoc with my counting...

Well spotted, thanks!

[brian 333]

...snip...
At the start of #567 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) he claims Belkar's prophecy was already fulfilled, while that prophecy was fulfilled at the end of that same strip. (and he even admits with his dying breath that he didn't believe what he was saying at the beginning of the strip).

*Belkar* You lied! I didn't kill anyone on my list!

*Oracle* You are going to kill me in two minutes, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

Yeah, so much better than trying to avoid an inevitable death.

Read Heinlein's Life-line, Asimov's End of Eternity, or Hebert's Children of Dune for thought provoking ideas about some of the ramifications of true prophecy. It sucks for the future-seers to know and to know that because they know they can't change it. They always have to try anyway.

[Precure]

I'm not sure about how truthful he was about prophecies, but he lied several times:

"Pixie dust" and probably "Kobold dust" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html)

"Your prophecy has already been fulfilled" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

[Riftwolf]

I'm not sure about how truthful he was about prophecies, but he lied several times:

"Pixie dust" and probably "Kobold dust" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html)

"Your prophecy has already been fulfilled" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

1) "It works by a poorly understood and unexplained narrative mechanic that's not important. Stop bugging me with unimportant details."
2) "What's really going to bend your noodle is whether the prophecy would've come true if I hadn't said anything."

[brian 333]

I believe The Oracle can lie. I believe The Oracle can be wrong. I do not believe it can lie or be wrong while speaking an official prophecy.

I do believe its answers can be manipulated through its mental filters such that the hearer can derive incorrect conclusions. I do not believe The Oracle or any supplicant can avoid a prophecy in any way.

I do not believe The Oracle knows anything about the future unless it has had cause to look into it, and thus is not all knowing about the future. I believe the only time its statements are truly prophecy are when it gives an official colored speech balloon answer.

Your reading of the comic and addenda may lead to other conclusions. That's part of the fun. For me, at least.

[Peelee]

I do not believe it can lie or be wrong while speaking an official prophecy.

Super minor disagreement: I think he can certainly lie while speaking an official prophecy. I just don't think he would.

[Lord Torath]

Super minor disagreement: I think he can certainly lie while speaking an official prophecy. I just don't think he would.If he lies even once about a prophecy and word gets out, his reputation is ruined, and suddenly no one else comes to pay 10,000 gp to get their future told.

So yeah, he's not going to lie about a prophecy. He'll give useless or hard-to-understand answers, but no, he's not going to lie.

[RatElemental]

If he lies even once about a prophecy and word gets out, his reputation is ruined, and suddenly no one else comes to pay 10,000 gp to get their future told.

So yeah, he's not going to lie about a prophecy. He'll give useless or hard-to-understand answers, but no, he's not going to lie.

He would also know which ones he could lie about without it ever getting out, though.

[Doug Lampert]

He would also know which ones he could lie about without it ever getting out, though.

How in the world would he know that?!

He can look into the future for what happens if he lies, and if he sees that word of his lie gets out then he now WILL tell that lie and it WILL get out because he has INFALLIBLY seen that he lies and that it gets out.

The oracle can look into the future for things like "when will I next die", and arrange for a resurrection at that time and date, we've seen him do so, but we've also seen him be totally unable to prevent the death that he sees coming.

Once he sees it, it's a fixed point in the future, it WILL happen. He does not appear to be able to play what-if with the future at all. This makes it good for extenuating EFFECTS of events, but very bad at causing or preventing events.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think there might also be issues with Tiamat if he lies through a formal prophecy.

[brian 333]

I doubt Tiamat cares what The Oracle does. The Oracle has been instrumental in helping those whose goal is to save the world, but Tiamat voted to destroy it.

[Fyraltari]

I doubt Tiamat cares what The Oracle does. The Oracle has been instrumental in helping those whose goal is to save the world, but Tiamat voted to destroy it.

We don't know what Tiamat voted. She was in Loki's and the Dark One's little club, though.

[brian 333]

We don't know what Tiamat voted. She was in Loki's and the Dark One's little club, though.

Actually, that's right. I was thinking it had been stated, but then she would have had less of a reason to be annoyed at the IFCC if she was planning on the world's destruction, wouldn't she?

I retract my previous statement.

[Ruck]

The Western Pantheon voted "yes" to destroying the world, but we don't know any individual god's vote outside of the Northern Pantheon.

[Fyraltari]

The Western Pantheon voted "yes" to destroying the world, but we don't know any individual god's vote outside of the Northern Pantheon.

We also know that, unlike the Northern Pantheon where both Loki and Thor attest to the existance of the Dark One, the Western one only has Tiamat's word for it* and so generally don't believe in him, so it's not surprising she'd be outvoted.

*Which I guess means the Western Pantheon does not put much stock in Thor.

[Ruck]

We also know that, unlike the Northern Pantheon where both Loki and Thor attest to the existance of the Dark One, the Western one only has Tiamat's word for it* and so generally don't believe in him, so it's not surprising she'd be outvoted.

*Which I guess means the Western Pantheon does not put much stock in Thor.

Well, we don't know why the Western Pantheon voted no. Some of the Northern gods are fully aware of The Dark One's existence yet would still rather destroy this world and build another one than try to deal with him. Although non-belief does take out one of the strongest arguments for saving this world, so it's not an unreasonable conclusion.

(* - It may also be less that the Western Pantheon does not put much stock in Thor and more that the rules and procedures governing how the pantheons interact may have prevented Thor from talking to them about it.)

[Fyraltari]

Well, we don't know why the Western Pantheon voted no. Some of the Northern gods are fully aware of The Dark One's existence yet would still rather destroy this world and build another one than try to deal with him. Although non-belief does take out one of the strongest arguments for saving this world, so it's not an unreasonable conclusion.
Yes, that is what I was trying to say.


(* - It may also be less that the Western Pantheon does not put much stock in Thor and more that the rules and procedures governing how the pantheons interact may have prevented Thor from talking to them about it.)
I mean, Rat, Tiamat, The Dark One and Loki had a private group chat and Loki sent emmissaries to the goblin god's place so I don't see why he could not.

[Ruck]

I mean, Rat, Tiamat, The Dark One and Loki had a private group chat and Loki sent emmissaries to the goblin god's place so I don't see why he could not.

The Dark One isn't bound by any of the rules and covenants between the other gods, so it may have been easier to set up those things. We don't exactly know how communications between gods of different pantheons are governed. At least, I find it more plausible that some rule of communication has prevented Thor from talking to the Western gods about The Dark One and re-sealing the rifts, than that they all think Thor is in on some scheme with Tiamat.

[Fyraltari]

The Dark One isn't bound by any of the rules and covenants between the other gods, so it may have been easier to set up those things. We don't exactly know how communications between gods of different pantheons are governed. At least, I find it more plausible that some rule of communication has prevented Thor from talking to the Western gods about The Dark One and re-sealing the rifts, than that they all think Thor is in on some scheme with Tiamat.

I think ot more likely they think Tiamat's tricked him too.

Also, I half-believe in the idea that The Dark One, Loki, Rat and Tiamat are secretely working together.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I doubt Tiamat cares what The Oracle does. The Oracle has been instrumental in helping those whose goal is to save the world, but Tiamat voted to destroy it.Apart from the fate of the world thing, the oracle's powers come from Tiamat by some special arrangement.

Also, I'm not 100% sure how OOTS religion works, but assuming it works like other religions, the oracle's formal predictions count as speaking on Tiamat's behalf and changing them to suit his own agenda is a very, very big deal.

[Precure]

1) "It works by a poorly understood and unexplained narrative mechanic that's not important. Stop bugging me with unimportant details."
2) "What's really going to bend your noodle is whether the prophecy would've come true if I hadn't said anything."

Yes, I know that people usually lie when it's convenient for them.

[TaiLiu]

Huh, good catch. I thought perhaps the "try ginkgo biloba" was an aside, but I checked #331 and, nope, it's a full-on green-balloon prophecy.

the pdf versions do have some additions so that's entirely possible.

Thank you TaiLiu - I'll update my notes accordingly for the next time this comes up.

(It doesn't appear to be in my print version - or at least I can't see it - perhaps it went in to the second edition).
Happy to help! Yeah, it's the PDF edition where Rich made comments on his comments.

Incidentally, now I'm curious how ginkgo helped Blackwing get closer to V. :smalltongue:

[Ruck]

Happy to help! Yeah, it's the PDF edition where Rich made comments on his comments.

Incidentally, now I'm curious how ginkgo helped Blackwing get closer to V. :smalltongue:

Ginkgo biloba is commonly cited as helping with memory, hence why the speculation is that Blackwing's question was on how to get V to remember him.

[Peelee]

Ginkgo biloba is commonly cited as helping with memory, hence why the speculation is that Blackwing's question was on how to get V to remember him.

Opposing theory: V is a vegetarian, and Blackwing made them nice, home cooked meals after the divorce proceedings started.

[Crimsonmantle]

Happy to help! Yeah, it's the PDF edition where Rich made comments on his comments.

Incidentally, now I'm curious how ginkgo helped Blackwing get closer to V. :smalltongue:

Is it canon that that's what Blackwing was asking about?

[Lord Torath]

Is it canon that that's what Blackwing was asking about?If it's not, someone on the Patreon account could ask Rich what the question actually was. No guarantee he'll answer it, but you never know.

[littlebum2002]

If it's not, someone on the Patreon account could ask Rich what the question actually was. No guarantee he'll answer it, but you never know.

LOL I'm waaaay ahead of you

https://i.ibb.co/QDZ7L4r/Annotation-2022-03-10-120341.jpg

I didn't get an answer though.

[TaiLiu]

Ginkgo biloba is commonly cited as helping with memory, hence why the speculation is that Blackwing's question was on how to get V to remember him.
Thank you! I had no idea ginkgo had that association and was thoroughly confused as to why people assumed Blackwing was asking about V.


Opposing theory: V is a vegetarian, and Blackwing made them nice, home cooked meals after the divorce proceedings started.
"You're telling me a raven fried this rice?" :smallbiggrin:


Is it canon that that's what Blackwing was asking about?
Nope, just an assumption.

[Crimsonmantle]

Looking it up, Ginkgo extract may perhaps help people with early stage Alzheimer deal with their daily lives and *just possibly* slow the disease's inexorable progress. There's nothing to imply it may help the memory of healthy people.
That Ginkgo may help with tinnitus and vertigo is much closer to scientifically proven, and vertigo would be rather problematic for a bird, so that shall be my pet theory until demonstrated otherwise.

(The stuff is poisonous to humans and presumably other humanoids in high dosage, but I very much doubt Blackwing was trying to poison V let alone anybody else.)

[Riftwolf]

The question was probably along the lines of "What can I do to get my master to remember I exist?"
The Oracle gave an unhelpful joke answer thanks to the questions wriggle room. A helpful but sober answer about what had to happen for V to remember Blackwing would've been out of place in an end joke panel and generated way more speculation than it needed to.

[Peelee]

Looking it up, Ginkgo extract may perhaps help people with early stage Alzheimer deal with their daily lives and *just possibly* slow the disease's inexorable progress. There's nothing to imply it may help the memory of healthy people.
That Ginkgo may help with tinnitus and vertigo is much closer to scientifically proven, and vertigo would be rather problematic for a bird, so that shall be my pet theory until demonstrated otherwise.

The author has an art degree, not a biochemistry or medical degree.

[brian 333]

Also, not long before that comic, an American television advertisement of a ginko biloba based herbal supplement listed improved memory as one of its many possible advantages.

[Fyraltari]

Also it's entirely possible that Blackwing was asking about that something that has absolutely nothing to do with V.

[Precure]

It's also a famous aphrodisiac.

[Crimsonmantle]

The author has an art degree, not a biochemistry or medical degree.
I didn't pack it in earlier - the post was full enough - but there's also suggestions of using Ginkgo extract for ADHS (probably doesn't work btw). That's obviously not something V actually has lol, but "attention disorder" works as a joke description of their inability/unwillingness to pay any attention to Blackwing.

Edit: "Attention Deficit". Nicely messed up the joke there. :(

[brian 333]

So the accuracy of Blackwing's answer is inconclusive. As are the purported effects of ginko biloba. That in itself is a good end panel gag, even if it took me years to get it.

Also, I still prefer to call it ginkgo bilboa in a fantasy parody comic.

[Squire Doodad]

Also, I still prefer to call it ginkgo bilboa in a fantasy parody comic.

Next week, you'll be grousing about the health benefits of ground-up palm frodos.

[RatElemental]

Next week, you'll be grousing about the health benefits of ground-up palm frodos.

Oh that one's easy, it makes you Samwiser.

[brian 333]

That's my new canon.

[JonahFalcon]

It's a reasonable interpretation (and almost certianly true), but unless the Giant publishes a Raven to English dictionary (or a translation) I'm afraid it stays in "Unclear".

C'mon. There's nothing gingko biloba can't sooth.

[Snails]

Indeed. I've been accused of being a Belkar denialist before now for pointing out that we don't know the Oracle's prophecies will come true -- and I stand by that, it is possible for him to lie or be mistaken -- but from a narrative standpoint, the Oracle's function is clearly to give the reader teasing titbits of knowledge about the future of the story. There is no reason, at the moment, to suspect the prophecies to be anything other than straight.

Right. I want to see a reason. An in story reason or even a meta reason. Why is the idea that a lie may have been told compelling?

Just like "Banjo will save everyone", "Shojo was totally fibbing about the Snarl in the Scribblers Tale", "the gods are lying about the Snarl", "Lauren is carrying Tarquin's lovechild", "I can name the 9 sides now", this one, "the Oracle was lying", is an idea that refuses to die.

I respect wild speculation, but only if the speculator can make the effort to explain why the story would be better, specifically better in terms of the tale The Giant seems to want to tell. Randomly pointing to something that everyone who has read the story thinks is probably true, and then asserting it is false is very easy. Randomly changing the genre of the tale being told, and then pointing to required retcons is easy. Making a good argument in favor of the assertion, even a good argument that is probably wrong, that takes effort.

Tangent...

A few days after the comic with Malack having tea with Durkon went up, I theorized that Malack was an evil blood-sucking vampire and Nergal was an evil god (or, at least, the vision of Nergal that Malack worshipped was evil). I could name reasons why it would fit neatly within the shape of the unfolding story, while not contradicting a single facet of the story generally accepted as true. "Malack was lying" was never part of my reasoning. "Malack said a literal truth, but it was also ambiguous enough to allow for other interpretations" was the foundation of my argument.

Frankly, most people rejected my argument, but at least they were rejecting it based on their own reasonable interpretation of the story. We did not simply reject what looked like evidence as non-evidence to make our point.

[littlebum2002]

A few days after the comic with Malack having tea with Durkon went up, I theorized that Malack was an evil blood-sucking vampire and Nergal was an evil god (or, at least, the vision of Nergal that Malack worshipped was evil). I could name reasons why it would fit neatly within the shape of the unfolding story, while not contradicting a single facet of the story generally accepted as true. "Malack was lying" was never part of my reasoning. "Malack said a literal truth, but it was also ambiguous enough to allow for other interpretations" was the foundation of my argument.

Frankly, most people rejected my argument, but at least they were rejecting it based on their own reasonable interpretation of the story. We did not simply reject what looked like evidence as non-evidence to make our point.


LOL I found it. Last edited 2011-06-03



(1) Weird eyes.
(2) Priest of Death
(3) Unusual diet
(4) Considering having another "offspring" with a "special bond"
(5) Belkar will very soon breathes his last.

All fit together.

He is a vampire.

His apparent albino appearance masks that he has glowing undead eyes (and why he might have delicate skin that avoids sunlight as well). As a priest of his particular god of Death, it makes perfect sense for him to be undead.

The strange allusions to his diet and having a "special bond" with his offspring seal the deal. As written they both are ambiguous conversations, but a very careful kind of ambiguous that promises a reveal while being a perfect fit for vampiricy.

And he will surely convert Belkar in undead, thereby assuring that the prophecy about breathing his last is accurate.

100% certain.

[Snails]

LOL I found it. Last edited 2011-06-03

And was even so close to being right about Belkar. Fangs well sunk into his neck close.

[Peelee]

And was even so close to being right about Belkar. Fangs well sunk into his neck close.

For reals. Helluvs guess. Even got the glowing eyes when they dominate!