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Emperor Demonking
2007-11-23, 12:26 PM
If a wizard doesn't know who he'll face that day. What would a typical contigency be.

I'd probably do, dimension door- whenever the wizard feels he's in danger.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 12:36 PM
A good contingency trigger if you don't know what you are going to face or don't have a specific circumstance in mind is "If I cast Feather Fall".

Feather Fall being an Immediate Action means that you can use it on other peoples turns while not having to come up with overly complicated triggering conditions.

I generally use Dimension Door or Teleport as my effects. Greater Heroism can be useful as well as part of a general use contingency.

If you can use stuff outside of core you get a lot more options. And if you are playing with Craft Continent Spell then you should have more tailored contingencies.

TheLogman
2007-11-23, 12:45 PM
Whenever "I take more than a certain amount of damage" is good. If you know that you're facing against anything specific, like archers, a certain element, or anything that can be foiled by any certain spell, then a protection from it can be great, especially if the danger requires a short-lived protection that can't be buffed, or the danger is surprising.

Another good one is whenever I roll initiative, Celerity. If your DM says that that's too meta-game, change it to whenever I am aware of hostile creatures or subject to a dangerous or damaging substance. Celerity allows for more versatility.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-23, 01:29 PM
I like the casting feather fall also, but if you get some sort of magic induced stupor then your screwed, but if you say "If my mind becomes aldeled" then a mean DM will have you teleportin away if you take a sip of wine. Go with "If I cast feather fall, or become magicaly inable to cast spells." that ought to do it.

Toliudar
2007-11-23, 01:31 PM
For metagame reasons, I don't have DD or teleport as my wizard's contingency - since there's a good chance that, if triggered, it means I'm abandoning the group when they're in serious trouble.

Right now, my contingency's set for "if I get below X hit points", and is a polymorph spell. I'm hoping that, between the regained hit points and the ability to change into one of any number of creatures, depending on the situation, it's enough to help my wiz survive without running away.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-23, 01:36 PM
ya but what if you get somthing like Domanite Monster cast on you, then you SOL.

Chronos
2007-11-23, 02:04 PM
I think that all choices related to the triggered spell must be set at time of casting, not triggering. So for a Polymorph, you need to choose the form in advance, and for Teleport, you need to choose the destination.

Myself, I would use "If I am ever rendered incapable of casting spells with verbal and somatic components". As a wizard, as long as I can cast my full selection of spells (or close to it), I'm in pretty good shape. If I'm somehow rendered incapable of casting the bulk of my spells, though, I may have a problem. This trigger would cover being caught in a Silence spell, or being incapacitated somehow, or being immobilized, or possibly being caught in an antimagic field (depending on how one rules on the timing of triggered events).

Emperor Tippy, I see what you're getting at with the Feather Fall thing, but why not just make it "Whenever I say the word 'zounds'" instead? Talking is a free action that can be taken at any time, so you could still trigger it whenever you wanted, but it wouldn't depend on you being able to cast a spell, and wouldn't use up a spell slot or a swift action (of which you only get one per round). In either case, though, a trigger that depends on something you do won't help if you're suddenly incapacitated.

Green Bean
2007-11-23, 02:09 PM
ya but what if you get somthing like Domanite Monster cast on you, then you SOL.

As opposed to a (lower level) Dominate Person when the spell isn't active? :smallconfused:

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 03:47 PM
((Blargh, double post!))

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 03:53 PM
I personally houserule that you cannot state a contingency in metagame terms (like "I take 10 damage" or "If I don't win initiative"), and that contingency provides no special awareness or sixth sense of its own. For example, if your contingency is "when an enemy approaches within 100 feet" it's not going to notice an invisible foe unless you yourself do.

Anyways, these little changes make the spell a good deal more manageable.


Whenever "I take more than a certain amount of damage" is good.

Also, I'd think you should like to AVOID damage, since at higher levels you'll often go squish if people manage to do it to you.


A good contingency trigger if you don't know what you are going to face or don't have a specific circumstance in mind is "If I cast Feather Fall".

Feather Fall being an Immediate Action means that you can use it on other peoples turns while not having to come up with overly complicated triggering conditions. There's a bit of a problem with your thinking here. Yes, Immediate Action is good, but Contingency can do better than that. Speaking is a special free action that can be done outside the boundaries of your turn. Basically, it's a costless immediate action. As a result, you can say "I speak whatever word" as a better-than-immediate activation to spur spell combos or counters. No need to set some random spell to it.

If you're worried about silence or control sound, of course, you could do something more along the lines of "if I use the hand motion." Sign language doesn't take a different kind of action than verbal communication, after all.

Inyssius Tor
2007-11-23, 03:55 PM
Emperor Tippy, I see what you're getting at with the Feather Fall thing, but why not just make it "Whenever I say the word 'zounds'" instead? Talking is a free action that can be taken at any time, so you could still trigger it whenever you wanted, but it wouldn't depend on you being able to cast a spell, and wouldn't use up a spell slot or a swift action (of which you only get one per round). In either case, though, a trigger that depends on something you do won't help if you're suddenly incapacitated.
You already mentioned the silence spell in your post, which neatly disables the word "zounds." I like your "If I am ever rendered incapable of casting spells with verbal and somatic components", but I would add "... or come within one half-inch of any effect that nullifies magic," if that isn't too complex for a contingency's trigger.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 03:59 PM
Basically, it's a costless immediate action. As a result, you can say "I speak the command word" as a better-than-immediate activation to spur spell combos or counters.

Most DMs I play with (actually, I use this rule as well), will not allow you to speak when flat-footed. Also, even if that rule is not in play, you don't want to use the phrase 'command word' in your contingency, as using a command word is a standard action. As opposed to speaking a specific word, which apparently is not.

I like the contingency (triggered by)featherfall, though.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 04:02 PM
I like the contingency (triggered by)featherfall, though.

Why? That eats up your immediate/nextswift action. I like those things!

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 04:03 PM
Because most of my DMs would rule your method counts as a command word. Command words are standard actions. I need those more.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 04:10 PM
Because most of my DMs would rule your method counts as a command word. Command words are standard actions. I need those more.
That's just silly. Your contingency is "when I speak the word abracadabra." You can speak the word abracadabra as a special free action. Saying otherwise is a (rather silly) houserule. Especially since many Immediate action spells have verbal components.

You're basically trying to tell me that speaking a word normally somehow takes a standard action when it is connected to a contingency (but in no other case) but when invoking a spell, speaking a string of words takes less time. Essentially, when using a very complex arcane process, perhaps throwing in hand motions for good measure, and speaking however many words, you take less time than speaking a single word with no strings attached. An you are further telling your players with this absurd ruling that a sentence like "Hey, look at me, I am saying things" takes a full 48 seconds to get out of your mouth, since it takes a whopping 8 rounds to say it. I'm sorry, but while I've met my share of unreasonable DMs playing online, I've never met one THAT unreasonable. If you have DMs that rule that way, I pity you, because even my worst DM horror stories don't include decisions that make that little sense.

Further, if you somehow rule that a hand motion or whatever cannot be a special free action, you can simply specify the lip movements of whatever word you would have spoken as the trigger, thus making the actual sound irrelevant.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-23, 04:18 PM
You're basically trying to tell me that speaking a word normally somehow takes a standard action when it is connected to a contingency (but in no other case) but when invoking a spell, speaking a string of words takes less time.

As opposed to wiggling your fingers and speaking gibberish only taking an action of any sort when it is a spell? You already suggested making a handsign and/or speaking abracadabra as a suggestion for triggering a contingency. Not to mention the fact that speaking a word to trigger a magical effect has precedent in the D20 rules (command word triggered magic items are, standard actions, as they ought to be, since command word activation is a cost reducer.

I don't use that rule, btw. I do use the "can't speak when flat-footed" rule.

I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to say that speaking is an immediate action. Probably up to X words is an immediate action, up to X+Y is a swift, and so on, up to saying a lot of words is a full-round action.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-23, 04:41 PM
I like the uncounsious idea. that or when something would stop your spell casting for longer than 12 secounds (or two rounds).

ya definently the last one. but the silence spell can be over come with a sixth level spell slot and the metamagic feat, "Silent Spell". One standered action, and you can activate the spell teleportation silently and your gone, you could do this while bound, gaged, deafened, and blind. Just *poof*, were'd Oscar go?

Collin152
2007-11-23, 04:48 PM
When I snap my fingers.
Unlikely to happen unless you mean it, it'll work in a silence spell, shouldn't take more than some variation of a free action.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 04:52 PM
I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to say that speaking is an immediate action. Probably up to X words is an immediate action, up to X+Y is a swift, and so on, up to saying a lot of words is a full-round action.

You keep on thinking that. I'll go by the rules for speaking as they are, since they're not enormously disruptive to game balance to the point that no one would pretty much ever speak in combat, nor do they require you to count words to avoid a Nale-esque message spell comedy routine. It's not fun. It's not reasonable. It doesn't enhance balance in any particular form. It's a bad houserule. In fact, it's a potentially game killer houserule of the sort that can actually cause people to get up from a gaming table and walk away, like a certain past DM's surprise blend of D&D and Rolemaster with the atrocious critical miss rules about tripping over invisible turtles for two rounds that drove away his entire party of players as soon as it was mentioned. There's a reason free actions exist. You just seem to be offended by the idea that anything can be a free action. Unless you are ruling that free actions don't exist, just pick some other free action besides speaking if you have a DM who is silly enough to make speaking a single word normally into a standard, swift, or immediate action (completely ignoring the descriptions of the sort of effort all such actions are supposed to entail) and for some weird reason are not willing to just get up and leave the gaming table when it gets to that point of absurdity.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-23, 04:58 PM
When I snap my fingers.
Unlikely to happen unless you mean it, it'll work in a silence spell, shouldn't take more than some variation of a free action.

ya but what if you imobalized?...

im telling you guys, a variant on the unability to cast spells. it cant be to vague because then a DevilDM will just say when you cough and grab somthing at the same time (effectivly keeping you from using V,S, and maybe M components) you go POOF, and teleport away, waisting a contengincy.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 05:01 PM
ya but what if you imobalized?...

im telling you guys, a variant on the unability to cast spells. it cant be to vague because then a DevilDM will just say when you cough and grab somthing at the same time (effectivly keeping you from using V,S, and maybe M components) you go POOF, and teleport away, waisting a contengincy.

There's also the potentially controversial idea of a THOUGHT trigger. You are aware of what you're thinking, so Contingency needs no special foresight to realize that you are giving a thought command. In that way, it's more reasonable than things like "if I come within x distance of an unseen antimagic field."

This does not require you to do so much as breathe. It just requires that you're not braindead.

Zeful
2007-11-23, 05:10 PM
Well just to nitpick...


Myself, I would use "If I am ever rendered incapable of casting spells with verbal and somatic components." As a wizard, as long as I can cast my full selection of spells (or close to it), I'm in pretty good shape. If I'm somehow rendered incapable of casting the bulk of my spells, though, I may have a problem. This trigger would cover being caught in a Silence spell, or being incapacitated somehow, or being immobilized, or possibly being caught in an antimagic field (depending on how one rules on the timing of triggered events).

There are very few instances where your contingency would come up. You could walk into a silenced area and still have your hands free, doesn't trip contingency. You could be tied up and left ungagged, doesn't trip contingency. There are alot of instances where this won't work.

However this contingency is very good, because you can simply in a situation where you lose your ability to cast spells with somatic components (grappled, shackled, imprisoned etc.), you can have a Stilled Silence that you cast on yourself to trip your contingency.

Collin152
2007-11-23, 05:29 PM
ya but what if you imobalized?...

im telling you guys, a variant on the unability to cast spells. it cant be to vague because then a DevilDM will just say when you cough and grab somthing at the same time (effectivly keeping you from using V,S, and maybe M components) you go POOF, and teleport away, waisting a contengincy.

I'm pretty sure I can snap my fingers in any given immobilization, unless they specifically tie them up, or if its a magical binding effect.
And if they're going through the effort to bind me magically by some means, they've probably dimesnion locked me too anyway.

Chronos
2007-11-23, 05:36 PM
There are very few instances where your contingency would come up. You could walk into a silenced area and still have your hands free, doesn't trip contingency.If I walk into a silenced area, I can't cast spells with verbal and somatic components, so it would trigger. I said "and", not "or".


And if they're going through the effort to bind me magically by some means, they've probably dimesnion locked me too anyway.Maybe you were hit by a Hold Person, and they're going to cast the Dimension Lock the next round. Or maybe the Hold Person was cast by a third-level cleric who just got incredibly lucky, and doesn't have any means of Dimension Locking. Yeah, it's unlikely for a wizard to be affected by a Hold Person, but the whole point of Contingency is to cover those rare cases when your standard protections fail for some reason.

Collin152
2007-11-23, 05:50 PM
Hold Person wouldn't keep a wizard down long anyways, as many will saves as it mandates to keep it down. Besides, I could still cast a silenced Dimension Door (What wizard would go without one? It's the only reason Sudden Silence exists.) and get out of there, then use my massive will save to break free in a matter of seconds.

Saph
2007-11-23, 06:17 PM
I'm with the school of thought that says that a trigger word to activate a Contingency should count as an immediate action. An immediate action is very fast and can interrupt someone else's turn, but can't be done when you're flat-footed. This seems like a pretty good representation of "speaking a word to activate a spell".

Otherwise Contingency becomes (effectively) a free extra action that can be taken even if you're unaware of what's happening, which overpowers a spell that's quite powerful enough already. (And let's not even get into the implications of using that rule with Craft Contingent Spell.)

Incidentally, the DMs for our gaming group usually do limit how many words you can say during a round. (Our regular DM has a limit of ten words in your turn, two words out of it). The rule's rarely enforced - it's there just to limit the silliness of PCs having long involved tactical discussions in what's supposed to be a six second combat round.

- Saph

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-23, 06:38 PM
And if they're going through the effort to bind me magically by some means, they've probably dimesnion locked me too anyway.

Doesnt matter. By your logic, by the time you can cast contengency with a teleport spell, around level 15, their would be diminsional locks every where effectively elimenating it's usefullness. Which is bull, so there not that effecient, but they are, so your logic is mistaken.

Collin152
2007-11-23, 06:41 PM
Doesnt matter. By your logic, by the time you can cast contengency with a teleport spell, around level 15, their would be diminsional locks every where effectively elimenating it's usefullness. Which is bull, so there not that effecient, but they are, so your logic is mistaken.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how that defies my logic. I can barely see what logic you're refferring to. I'm just saying, if they feel I'm worth binding so thoroughly that I can't so much as snap, they are goign to take every precaution to ensure I can't escape. If they don't? Silenced Dimension Door gets me free.

Crow
2007-11-23, 06:46 PM
I don't see how a thought trigger would be against the rules. Unbalancing? Maybe.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-23, 06:47 PM
I agree with the silent spell.

It's just that a spell that locks you magiclly is more effective then any rope.

ps. Oh, if you get in a tussle with some orcs they might jsut cut your thumbs off. No Snappy Snapp. but thats just a smart a** remark .

Collin152
2007-11-23, 06:47 PM
Man, thought triggers. If they were permissible, would you ever use any differant sort of trigger?

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 06:49 PM
I don't see how a thought trigger would be against the rules. Unbalancing? Maybe.

Many functions of Contingency that are arguably allowable by the rules are potentially unbalancing, such as the ones I already mentioned that I houserule against.

As for Saph's idea about needing it to be an immediate action since he thinks you shouldn't be able to do it while flat-footed... same goes for free actions. Even if it didn't, you're already going into the realm of house-ruling with immediate, so you might as well make it so.


Man, thought triggers. If they were permissible, would you ever use any differant sort of trigger?

YES. The kind that has foresight or metagame triggers.

Crow
2007-11-23, 06:50 PM
Yeah, so I mean, why not go whole hog? =)

Toliudar
2007-11-23, 07:52 PM
I think that all choices related to the triggered spell must be set at time of casting, not triggering. So for a Polymorph, you need to choose the form in advance, and for Teleport, you need to choose the destination.

Interesting. Do you have a source on that? It isn't mentioned in the spell description.

Saph
2007-11-23, 07:54 PM
As for Saph's idea about needing it to be an immediate action since he thinks you shouldn't be able to do it while flat-footed... same goes for free actions. Even if it didn't, you're already going into the realm of house-ruling with immediate, so you might as well make it so.

Well, if I'm remembering the DMG right, casting a quickened spell is supposed to be described as "With a single word and a flick of the hand . . ." An immediate action is even faster, so it's probably as fast as saying a single word.

Free actions by RAW are generally treated as outside the combat sequence, since the designers (I'm guessing) assumed that the things they listed as free actions were ones that wouldn't have direct combat application. This causes the action system to mess up somewhat when players figure out ways to apply them to combat anyway.

For example, one of the more vicious DMing tricks I know is to use Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation) with Antimagic Field on a CR 20ish dragon - dragons have high enough HDs to qualify for epic feats. So the dragon can raise and lower the field as free actions whenever it feels like it, snapping it on whenever an attack's launched at it and off immediately afterwards, doing it hundreds of times per turn. (In my defence, I'd never actually do this to a group of PCs. I only came up with it in response to the hundredth thread a few months ago about wizards being able to solo everything.) The D&D battle system just starts to go really screwy once free actions become combat-applicable.

- Saph

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 08:06 PM
Actually Contingency can have a thought trigger, technically.

Crow
2007-11-23, 08:10 PM
Interesting. Do you have a source on that? It isn't mentioned in the spell description.

There is no source on that, it is a house rule. As are the many sentiments that you can't set a condition that you yourself are not aware of.

By RAW. The Errata and the FAQ don't even mention this spell.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 08:11 PM
Well, if I'm remembering the DMG right, casting a quickened spell is supposed to be described as "With a single word and a flick of the hand . . ." An immediate action is even faster, so it's probably as fast as saying a single word. The catch is that it's described as taking a certain amount of *effort* that causes you to only be able to do it once in a round. It's in the description of a swift action. Something along the lines of "It's like a free action, but it takes a lot more effort." (Pardon the lack of an exact quote, I don't have my books with me) It's not a simple matter of time. If it was, that meant that "saying a single word and a quick motion" could only be accomplished once in the space of six seconds, which is a laughable idea.

Further, all this about "oh noes, you can use contingency without spending an action so we have to make talking really, REALLY suck for everyone who ever wants to say anything IC in a fight!" is rather pointless (unless your point is to torture your players. "Caedrus, look out!" "Okay, now it's your turn." "Okay, I assume my stance and..." "No, you spoke, so you can't assume your stance" "What?" "You can't fight now. You have to act like a plain old warrior, because you spoke when the monster appeared." "*censored string of expletives and ridicule.* I'm out of here.") You can use contingency without spending an action in a dozen other ways. It's kinda the whole reason that Contingency is considered to be really good. That, and the idea that it somehow gives you foresight. And... man, I just can't emphasize how bad an idea it is to make speaking a single word into an immediate action. It's a really, really bad idea which forces players to either severely gimp themselves (swift and immediate actions are CRUCIAL to many characters' performance. ToB and Psionics just doesn't work without them, and Magic and Magic Items benefits a great deal from them.) or forever be dead silent in combat. Way to drive a wedge between combat and roleplaying and punish players for so much as taunting a foe after a satisfying critical. There should be an award for worst idea for a houserule here. I'd give it to that idea. It doesn't do anything positive for the game or game experience for anyone involved, but it definitely does have negative effects.


Actually Contingency can have a thought trigger, technically.

That's what I said...

Chronos
2007-11-23, 08:22 PM
Well, if you don't make all choices associated with the spell at time of casting, then you have to ask what happens if you're unconscious at the time the Contingency is triggered. Do you Polymorph into a grey elf wizard? Teleport to your exact current location?

This is also a reason you might not use thought triggers (even if they're allowed, which isn't entirely clear).

Saph, your hypothetical dragon wouldn't have to turn its field on and off hundreds of times per round. It'd be quite sufficient to turn it off (if necessary) long enough for it to take its actions, then turn it back on before the end of its turn.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-23, 08:25 PM
Well, if you don't make all choices associated with the spell at time of casting, then you have to ask what happens if you're unconscious at the time the Contingency is triggered. Do you Polymorph into a grey elf wizard? Teleport to your exact current location?

Personally, I rule that Contingency does not have foresight, and any decisions it makes about triggering are based upon your capacities at the time (if you were conscious, etc.). So if you can detect invisible creatures, so can it.


As are the many sentiments that you can't set a condition that you yourself are not aware of. I explicitly stated that it was my own personal houserule the first time I mentioned it, thanks. So... there is no argument with that. We're in agreement.

Crow
2007-11-23, 08:55 PM
Personally, I rule that Contingency does not have foresight, and any decisions it makes about triggering are based upon your capacities at the time (if you were conscious, etc.). So if you can detect invisible creatures, so can it.

I explicitly stated that it was my own personal houserule the first time I mentioned it, thanks. So... there is no argument with that. We're in agreement.

Apologies OW4, I was referring to the many posts about this in every other Contingency thread that has come up.

Clementx
2007-11-23, 09:19 PM
Here's the problem with thought triggers. Try not to think of pink elephants. You just did, and dimension door'ed 600ft back into the middle of a hill. If you want contingency to function on events, instead of actions, they better be under complete conscious control.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 09:29 PM
Here's the problem with thought triggers. Try not to think of pink elephants. You just did, and dimension door'ed 600ft back into the middle of a hill. If you want contingency to function on events, instead of actions, they better be under complete conscious control.

That's why you make the thought trigger something very long and involved, so that you have to consciously think it.

Collin152
2007-11-23, 09:32 PM
Long and Invloved thoughts aren't very convenient to think about in a life threatining situation.

Crow
2007-11-23, 09:38 PM
There is an item in the Magic Item Compendium called the Necklace of Warning. It says that it "warns you of impending danger", and you get a +2 to flat-footed AC or something. Could this be used as part of thought contingent celerity? i.e. "When my ring warns me of a danger I am not aware of yet"...Or something along those lines.

tyckspoon
2007-11-23, 09:44 PM
There is an item in the Magic Item Compendium called the Necklace of Warning. It says that it "warns you of impending danger", and you get a +2 to flat-footed AC or something. Could this be used as part of thought contingent celerity? i.e. "When my ring warns me of a danger I am not aware of yet"...Or something along those lines.

That sounds valid to me. A similar condition for a suitably high-level caster could be 'When my Foresight spell provides a warning'. Both of those are quite general, however, and could easily be tripped by minor threats that you wouldn't want to blow your contingency'd spell on.

Irreverent Fool
2007-11-24, 12:33 AM
A good contingency trigger if you don't know what you are going to face or don't have a specific circumstance in mind is "If I cast Feather Fall".

That's terrible. I'm going to use it.

Idea Man
2007-11-24, 01:40 AM
According to the RAW, you can set any condition. Proper application would imply that the spell can't do anything that you can't, to avoid making it an all-purpose detector spell. Thought triggers seem viable, but risky, as you could be rendered unconscious before you gat a chance to use it.

Now, my interpretation of the spirit of the spell description is that it was intended to cover events that happen to the caster, not around him. It also was not intended in my opinion to include thoughts, as nothing is actually happening, and contingency was designed to react to external stimuli.

I have underlined the fact that these are my opinions so they are not quoted as WotC law, or even recommendation. Personally, I find the ideas presented worthy of spellcaster think-tanks. "How can I make this spell, which is just waiting for a trigger, happen at the best possible time?" I think this is a case of a spell pushed to the limits of RAW, but in a good way.

Besides, there is no "ideal" way to use the trigger conditions. Different effects call for different strategies. The wizards in my campaign have contingency/teleport set to trigger if they fall unconscious, and get whisked away to a temple where an alter has been "trapped" to cast revivify automatically. Prepaid, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe that's a hint I'm too harsh. Nah...