Need help deciding what class to play

[Soultpp]

So, our group just finished a 5e campaign (sort of, the DM said he'd do more once he found epic level stuff that he liked.)

Now we're going to be diving into a new one back at Lv 1.

I'm having trouble deciding what to play atm for the class.

Character is set as Water Genasi and character's twin (another PC) is planned to be a cleric (not sure the domain yet). The parents are our characters from the campaign that just finished, Evoker wizard and Oathbreaker Paladin.

Now I was already intending on trying to avoid wizard, paladin, or any full casters if I could, and recently at a coffee 'sort-of' session 0 the DM said he was planning on partially using the alt rule for resting, turning long rests into week long so that made me more interested in avoiding full caster or any class that was dependent on LR for abilities. And stats are 'point buy' with base 8 abilities and 30 points to distribute. (No higher costs for higher stats)

Other party members are a little hazy:
Artificer/gunner is probably set, we were going to have a celestial warlock but I was told that player decided to hedge and say they had 4 chars they could play (and said 'up to you' to the one playing my twin) and the last is probably going to be a bard.

I want to be able to synergize with the party (especially the twin) but also want to not worry about the change in resting affecting me.

I decided to come here for suggestions since I was having troubles with making up my own mind.

[Eldariel]

There are some full casters that work just fine with their at-wills or plentiful, powerful SR-resources (and all Wizards are fine early on between their incredible Cantrips and Rituals). That's where I'd go:
- Moon Druid (2/SR supermode) - most Druids get some solid SR recovery ability too, but Moon is obviously in a class of its own
- Tank Enchanter Wizard (at-will CC and self-control - also note, technically Arcane Recovery is once per day so you should by RAW get Arcane Recovery each night sleep/short rest - this should likely be Mountain Dwarf Enchanter starting with med armor and 13 Dex and taking Moderately Armored on 4, making use of Hypnotic Gaze, Rituals & Cantrips)
- Most Bards (though they need until level 5 to become an SR class; Swords or Lore are both particularly solid on this front, with great at-wills)
- Hexblade and Genielock (hell, all Warlocks but especially those two have solid at-will or SR recovery options and in general are just great )

That said, I've played full casters in campaigns with gritty realism and frankly, I haven't found that to make them significantly worse. You can't as reliably use Mage Armor and Goodberry stacking is harder and Animate Dead doesn't really work but other than that, full casters are as powerful and useful (should I say necessary?) as ever: they are still the only source of non-HD recovery for the party, fix most status ailments and make fights easier by reducing key enemy output.

That said, you are likely to have a Cleric, a Bard, and potentially a CelLock + Artillerist too so you can kinda play whatever since they cover the whole spectrum of potential party needs already. Any resources you add obviously let the party go longer though: but if you want to look at the entirely SR classes, Monk is really rough on these levels (they basically just don't get enough resources - played a Gritty Realism game from level 3 on with a couple of Monks over the campaign and they inevitably all switched characters as they either died or just weren't doing that much) and Barb is LR too so it's really Fighter, Rogue or Ranger if you don't want Paladin either. Of those, Gloomstalker, Battlemaster, Rune Knight, Echo Knight & Arcane Trickster are all pretty darn solid for the party (Samurai is LR-based too).

[togapika]

If the twin is playing a cleric, why not try and get them to be a cleric of a water god, and then you could play a Fathomless Warlock of the same god. So you both have powers from the same entity, but got them in entirely different ways.

[loki_ragnarock]

Play a fighter.

Use one of your excess feats (lvl 4 looks good to me) to pick up Ritual Caster: Wizard. (Mom/Dad's influence, see if you can con your DM into having the old character's ritual book.)

Be a Psi Warrior. You got all the smarts of your papa/mama, just in a beefcake package. You still got a little magic, but you mostly focused it on specific tricks that you can bring to bear as needed. Psi die aren't unlimited in a longer rest scenario, but the ability to spend a bonus action after every short rest to regenerate one means you'll usually have some available.

Now you've got a character who can cast Floating Disk and attack with many swords. Best of both worlds.

[elyktsorb]

SR preferable and it sounds like you need someone who can take a hit. Moon Druid is the first thing that comes to mind.

Mm.. Long Death Monk's can be tanky, especially if you abuse the temp hp thing hard.

[Soultpp]

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Everything said has been extremely helpful and will definitely be filed away for future concept ideas!

Has it solved my indecision dilemma? Not yet, but it definitely has given me some leads to look more closely at and hopefully that will lead me to an answer before our first session on Saturday.

I mean, I'm still open to more suggestions (even full builds if you want) because every little bit of advice I get will either help with this situation or potentially the next time I make a character, and I'd like to start exploring more eclectic builds.

Edit: At least one idea I have been toying with is trying to do something flashy with cantrip shenanigans, like getting more uses out of them per round, and maybe combining them with something like battle master as well... I don't have enough in-depth knowledge to easily put a build together like this though. A melee/cantrip fighter with minimal LR abilities would be best. Above average action economy would be ideal but not essential.

[Rashagar]

If it were me, I'd start from the "parents" place. Is your character trying to follow in the parents footsteps or are they rebelling against what the parents held dear and going their own way?
Eg. An arcane trickster rogue or eldritch knight fighter could be rebelling against the paladin parent's ethos while still taking after their wizard parent. Or a wild magic barbarian could be out to show the world they're as strong as their paladin parent but have zero patience for study, however the strong magic of the parents has been subtly passed down and leaks out in unexpected ways.

Talking with the player playing the cleric about how their character sees their relationship with the parents could help add to characterisation and let you play off each other a bit.

*Edit
Alternatively, riffing off things your old characters did could be fun. Did they have any go-to defining strategies that could be reflected in the new character (eg. Paladin with great weapon mastery, so it's important to your character that they can use the family heirloom weapon) or did your old characters make any powerful enemies who might try getting revenge on them through their children (eg. Killed a powerful demon during their career, and now the demon's boss has tricked your new character into a pact)

[animorte]

I know you already mentioned this, but...

Focusing on short rests? - Warlock

Celestial Patron (maybe a bit redundant, but still really cool)

Pact of the Tome - more low level spells to take advantage of the unlimited versatility options

This essentially follows the path of your family, you're just a bit less patient to commit to all the study and dedication necessary for the same paths. You do, however, still respect the family views and in time they will see that you are out to provide the same service. You're just taking a different route to the same goal.

OR

Robin hood style ranger or rogue all in it to give back to the people.

[Ganryu]

People are going to call me crazy for this... but I think 4 elements monk would work well. You can spam water whip, while being martial, and Tasha's allows you to attack afterwards with a monk weapon as a bonus action, which helps the class a ton. You get 3d10+1d8+3 damage at lvl 3 in one turn. Not bad.

It's gone from a bad choice to a mediocre choice.

You're martial, front line, and fit the water genasi theme. At lvl 6, switch out your cantrip for an extra style, so you have 3 instead of two. Don't go for most damaging spells, go for the unique ones, or utility. Lvl 11 you straight up get fly as a monk, if you have mobile, that's amazing.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Everything said has been extremely helpful and will definitely be filed away for future concept ideas!

Has it solved my indecision dilemma? Not yet, but it definitely has given me some leads to look more closely at and hopefully that will lead me to an answer before our first session on Saturday.

I mean, I'm still open to more suggestions (even full builds if you want) because every little bit of advice I get will either help with this situation or potentially the next time I make a character, and I'd like to start exploring more eclectic builds.

Edit: At least one idea I have been toying with is trying to do something flashy with cantrip shenanigans, like getting more uses out of them per round, and maybe combining them with something like battle master as well... I don't have enough in-depth knowledge to easily put a build together like this though. A melee/cantrip fighter with minimal LR abilities would be best. Above average action economy would be ideal but not essential.

Like Battlemaster 3 / Arcane Trickster X? Use BM maneuvers to trigger sneak attacks with Booming Blade, off turn as necessary. Nothing wrong with this combo, and you get maneuvers and 2nd wind back on SR.

[Soultpp]

If it were me, I'd start from the "parents" place. Is your character trying to follow in the parents footsteps or are they rebelling against what the parents held dear and going their own way?
Eg. An arcane trickster rogue or eldritch knight fighter could be rebelling against the paladin parent's ethos while still taking after their wizard parent. Or a wild magic barbarian could be out to show the world they're as strong as their paladin parent but have zero patience for study, however the strong magic of the parents has been subtly passed down and leaks out in unexpected ways.

Talking with the player playing the cleric about how their character sees their relationship with the parents could help add to characterisation and let you play off each other a bit.

*Edit
Alternatively, riffing off things your old characters did could be fun. Did they have any go-to defining strategies that could be reflected in the new character (eg. Paladin with great weapon mastery, so it's important to your character that they can use the family heirloom weapon) or did your old characters make any powerful enemies who might try getting revenge on them through their children (eg. Killed a powerful demon during their career, and now the demon's boss has tricked your new character into a pact)

I've discussed a lot about the relationship with the parents with the cleric. The kids are kind of both honoring and rebeling at the same time. They are honoring their parents, who they did have a good relationship with, in that they are following in their footsteps by becoming adventurers. They are rebeling at the same time by trying to be good and decent people and help those they can (assuming the adventure lets them not backslide). The father (pally) was kinda an ******* to anyone not in his very small trusted circle, who just HAPPENED to do things that saved the world, but a good enough father. My char will be the primary driving force in the 'we have to be better people than father' thing. The cleric, while good intentioned, had exposure to someone who filled him with 'selfish world' doctrine (a family friend) so he's a bit less certain of things in that regard.

As far as the style of the old chars, father was sword and board but loved to smash things with smites, just mostly kept it to actual monsters. His only real signature otherwise was that he always had blackened armor with "I'm a good paladin" scratched on a shoulder.

Mother was an evoker wizard but she didn't have a single signature spell really, just whatever would hit the most targets for the most damage.

As for old enemies, the closest that still lives (unless the DM brings back the nasty thing that we finished with) would be a "trade guild" from Westgate (Forgotten Realms but not following official timelines) that had a contract out on the pally for like half our campaign. They called it off eventually, even helped us in the last quest a bit, so it might not come up.


Like Battlemaster 3 / Arcane Trickster X? Use BM maneuvers to trigger sneak attacks with Booming Blade, off turn as necessary. Nothing wrong with this combo, and you get maneuvers and 2nd wind back on SR.

Something like that could be what I'm looking for actually. I hadn't looked at AT much until people started mentioning it, mostly as an oversight really. Was kinda starting to look at hexlock too, but I'll look more at AT and see if that works better. I don't mind playing partial casters, just didn't want to play another full caster after the wizard, which was something I had decided before the gritty realism LR was mentioned.

Edit: So I'm actually torn between going with Hexlock/BM or BM/AT. Trying to weigh the pros/cons of each build, and if there were another option for one or the other build that would be better (Not 100% sold on BM for hexlock for example, though any option would only be a maximum 3 lvl dip unless I give up the 9th lvl Arcanum) A secondary question would be which fighting style would be best for each combo if they're available?

Also, as an extra, I've found out a bit about the other options the celestial lock player is thinking of: Pheonix Sorcerer and a different 2nd sorcerer (can't remember subclass), Urchin Rogue (didn't say the subclass) so that could have an effect on what I want to play.

[Pildion]

So, our group just finished a 5e campaign (sort of, the DM said he'd do more once he found epic level stuff that he liked.)

Now we're going to be diving into a new one back at Lv 1.

I'm having trouble deciding what to play atm for the class.

Character is set as Water Genasi and character's twin (another PC) is planned to be a cleric (not sure the domain yet). The parents are our characters from the campaign that just finished, Evoker wizard and Oathbreaker Paladin.

Now I was already intending on trying to avoid wizard, paladin, or any full casters if I could, and recently at a coffee 'sort-of' session 0 the DM said he was planning on partially using the alt rule for resting, turning long rests into week long so that made me more interested in avoiding full caster or any class that was dependent on LR for abilities. And stats are 'point buy' with base 8 abilities and 30 points to distribute. (No higher costs for higher stats)

Other party members are a little hazy:
Artificer/gunner is probably set, we were going to have a celestial warlock but I was told that player decided to hedge and say they had 4 chars they could play (and said 'up to you' to the one playing my twin) and the last is probably going to be a bard.

I want to be able to synergize with the party (especially the twin) but also want to not worry about the change in resting affecting me.

I decided to come here for suggestions since I was having troubles with making up my own mind.

Sounds like this group could use a solid front line. I know you said you didn't want a Paladin but that would sync with the Cleric really well. Out of ether a Barbarian or Fighter I would say the Fighter is going to sync better with a cleric. Good old Battle Master or Rune Knight. I've never played an Echo Knight myself but they don't look bad.

[Soultpp]

Sounds like this group could use a solid front line. I know you said you didn't want a Paladin but that would sync with the Cleric really well. Out of ether a Barbarian or Fighter I would say the Fighter is going to sync better with a cleric. Good old Battle Master or Rune Knight. I've never played an Echo Knight myself but they don't look bad.

I had thought of that, going with a straight fighter or something but ended up getting a spark of an idea that I wasn't sure how to translate to class mechanics. Our DM has said more than once that he would adjust to what our group was composed of though, so a full frontliner may not be strictly necessary. A gish build with decent, if not full, frontline playability (and minimum LR dependancy) would probably suffice. Paladin isn't a complete no I suppose, but at the same time I don't want the last paladin's player to think I'm trying to one-up them or 'show them how it's done', which was why I was originally planning to avoiding it. The one suggestion of Battle Master/Arcane Trickster was very intriguing, though I was hoping to get the cantrips online earlier (which is why I thought of hexlock myself at first), and now with the options that the one player is presenting for their char choice (wish they'd make up their own mind on that) which I think I forgot to mention includes a ranger as well, it makes it hard to firm up what I want.


Played in a game where there had been no advanced party coordination among players and we ended up with 2 moon druids (different races mind) and two half-orcs. Now the races aren't a big deal, you can get that kind of mix in any game and they were played very differently/different classes so it was no big, but the doubled up moon druids made it hard for me (as one of them) to really feel invested in the campaign (even though they hadn't met yet) because we've eventually be stepping on each other's toes in our roles. Campaign still exists but has been put on hold atm and I'd probably continue to play it, but it felt a little meh because of that situation and I have been trying to make sure not to repeat it, especially when I've worked hard on the background of the two twins with the cleric's player.

[Skrum]

Not to say that just because long rests will be presumably hard to get short rests will be plentiful....but fighters are excellent short-resters, and it looks like your party could use a front-liner. Runic Knight would give some magic options and flavor, and is a very solid pick. If you know you're going to get frequent short rests, Battle Master is the best fighter option IMO (flavor-wise, would also work nicely as a non-spellcasting "black sheep of the family" that dedicated their studies to the blade). A 1-level barb dip before going fighter is very attractive, giving better skills, a d12 HD, and 2 uses of rage.

Warlock of course are the face of the short resting community, and there's tons of options for them. While I haven't gotten to play it yet, I've been dying to try out Pact of the Chain with a Gazer familiar (this would need DM approval, as it's a variant option from Volo's). But starting at third you can use your bonus action so your familiar can fire 2 rays with random nifty effects, every round, sounds good to me. That plus EB would give you incredible at-will power.

Edit: sorry kind of repeated what other said.

[Frogreaver]

Be a monk. If long rests really take a week and short tests come around every night, this campaign might be perfect for a monk.

Outside the monk, Battlemaster or warlock seems solid. Clerics with their channel divinities could be really nice too.

[Soultpp]

So, I ended up going with the Rogue to start and will grab AT when we hit 3rd level. I super appreciate all the advice that people have given me however! :smallbiggrin:

I do have a question still though: I was kinda considering whether if dipping 2-3 lvls in lock was worth while, was thinking it could be good for extra cantrips and a couple invocations. Just wondering if people think it could be worth it to do so for the AT. I was thinking Devil's Sight and something, plus the 1-2 extra short rest slots, could be beneficial (and several of the pacts could be useful.)

[Ganryu]

So, I ended up going with the Rogue to start and will grab AT when we hit 3rd level. I super appreciate all the advice that people have given me however! :smallbiggrin:

I do have a question still though: I was kinda considering whether if dipping 2-3 lvls in lock was worth while, was thinking it could be good for extra cantrips and a couple invocations. Just wondering if people think it could be worth it to do so for the AT. I was thinking Devil's Sight and something, plus the 1-2 extra short rest slots, could be beneficial (and several of the pacts could be useful.)

Nice!

I'd just get the eldritch adept invocation, or just 2 levels warlock if you do go that route. Unlike most rogues, you can afford to do this, because, you can add extra damage from one of the SCAG cantrips {Booming Blade/ Green Flame Blade(Make sure you grab one of these)}

Tome lock, if you go 3, is hilarious for amount of cantrips. If you grab book of shadows, you get so many ritual spells. Alternatively, can grab ritual caster for flavor.

I recommend just eldritch adept and stop there, full rogue, but can do as you want. You can afford it.

[Soultpp]

Nice!

I'd just get the eldritch adept invocation, or just 2 levels warlock if you do go that route. Unlike most rogues, you can afford to do this, because, you can add extra damage from one of the SCAG cantrips {Booming Blade/ Green Flame Blade(Make sure you grab one of these)}

Tome lock, if you go 3, is hilarious for amount of cantrips. If you grab book of shadows, you get so many ritual spells. Alternatively, can grab ritual caster for flavor.

I recommend just eldritch adept and stop there, full rogue, but can do as you want. You can afford it.

I was seriously considering tome for the extra cantrips with book of shadows and Devil's Sight because Darkness/DV is just too good to pass up. :belkar:

Not sure which patron would be best though. Hexblade would get me shields and curse but...

[XmonkTad]

I was seriously considering tome for the extra cantrips with book of shadows and Devil's Sight because Darkness/DV is just too good to pass up.

I'm going to recommend getting ritual casting somehow, and BoS is the best ritual casting out there. Heck, even a humble champion fighter brings a lot to the table with the ritual caster feat. The gritty rest rules make spell slots extremely precious, and the utility from things like Tiny Hut and Identity can't be overstated. So a tomelock is a great choice that I highly recommend. As for Subclass: Celestial, Fathomless or Genie (I like Dao). Hexblade has nice stuff, but you're not taking pact of the blade, so you won't get extra attack and the lot. The bludgeoning damage from Dao is just nice.

[animorte]

I was seriously considering tome for the extra cantrips with book of shadows and Devil's Sight because Darkness/DV is just too good to pass up. :belkar:

Not sure which patron would be best though. Hexblade would get me shields and curse but...

Which Patron? Genie is just my favorite thing about 5e.

[Soultpp]

I'm going to recommend getting ritual casting somehow, and BoS is the best ritual casting out there. Heck, even a humble champion fighter brings a lot to the table with the ritual caster feat. The gritty rest rules make spell slots extremely precious, and the utility from things like Tiny Hut and Identity can't be overstated. So a tomelock is a great choice that I highly recommend. As for Subclass: Celestial, Fathomless or Genie (I like Dao). Hexblade has nice stuff, but you're not taking pact of the blade, so you won't get extra attack and the lot. The bludgeoning damage from Dao is just nice.


Which Patron? Genie is just my favorite thing about 5e.

Have to admit I was looking at genie already since last posting. I do think that, even though it may be suboptimal, if I go genie I'll have to lean into the genasi heritage with marid because ancestor worship appeals to me. As for BoS, yes I was sincerely looking at that for one of the best invocation choices for both all the reasons stated and because wizard parent influence callback. Honestly, this character is one of mine that has had the most (visible) backstory infulence to date and carrying on with that theme just seems appropriate. :)

Of course the question then becomes is the ideal level spread still 17/3 or would it be worth it to do 14/6 for the PS times flight per LR? I can see benefits amd drawbacks to both. (Damn, I'm really indecisive at times!)

[Mostlymad]

Honestly, I don't know how a AT rogue with access to Eldritch Invocations can pass on the Misty Visions invocation. Having the ability to cast Silent Image at will is just too good to not take.

[Reach Weapon]

BoS is the best ritual casting out there.
A Book of Ancient Secrets requires a 3 level specific Warlock investment to get, and tops out a 2nd level rituals without further cost. While it's absolute applicability for breadth is exceedingly valuable, the feat allows rituals based on character level, which when considered with the lower investment, is arguably a more powerful if narrower option.

[Soultpp]

Honestly, I don't know how a AT rogue with access to Eldritch Invocations can pass on the Misty Visions invocation. Having the ability to cast Silent Image at will is just too good to not take.

That is another option yes. The problem stems from whether I can think of enough creative uses on the fly (not my strongest suit) and how the DM reacts. Still, a potentially very potent choice and one worth serious consideration for sure.


A Book of Ancient Secrets requires a 3 level specific Warlock investment to get, and tops out a 2nd level rituals without further cost. While it's absolute applicability for breadth is exceedingly valuable, the feat allows rituals based on character level, which when considered with the lower investment, is arguably a more powerful if narrower option.

This is a fair point for sure! And I guess I'll have to decide which limitation to take if I need rituals: Book of Ancient Secrets would limit me to 2nd lvl rituals but any spell list, Ritual Caster would allow any level, but only one list... Though from a quick glance, it looks like the Wizard list is likely the best choice...

[XmonkTad]

A Book of Ancient Secrets requires a 3 level specific Warlock investment to get, and tops out a 2nd level rituals without further cost. While it's absolute applicability for breadth is exceedingly valuable, the feat allows rituals based on character level, which when considered with the lower investment, is arguably a more powerful if narrower option.

That's true. I was looking at it more from a "you get access to every classes spell list" aspect rather than an investment aspect. And invocation slots are more plentiful than feats.

As a side benefit to BoS is that you're book is much safer than an actual ritual book, which can be lost or destroyed. Worth keeping in mind if the DM is going really gritty.