BPS Immunity is... kinda trashy.

[Nagog]

Hey ya'll!

I've been planning for a low magic setting I eventually want to run a few games in, and I have an area of ruins that is inhabited by a large number of wandering Golems, and their nonmagical BPS immunity has me both excited and worried for how a low to no magic party will handle it. While I'm certain my selected player base will be more than capable of solving the problem in creative ways, it got me thinking about nonmagical BPS and it's place in the game as a whole.

Nonmagical BPS resistance is a feature that comes into play fairly early on in the game, typically around the beginning of Tier 2. This is one of the first scaling difficulty gates when transitioning from one Tier to the next, and is a noticeable barrier that makes the party's new (and presumably rare) magical weapons feel stronger than the regular weapons they started with. While a party can defeat an enemy with N/M BPS resistances without such weapons, it's much more difficult (and can set up a follow up encounter down the road with the same enemy type to show the party how much they've grown).

However, N/M BPS Immunity is, by comparison, a ribbon feature for monsters. Throwing such a creature at a party that doesn't have those weapons is most of the time a death sentence (as they typically deal tons of damage to parties in tier 1 and 1.5) and the party typically doesn't have enough of the requisite magical damage output to destroy one. on the other hand, if the party does have magical weapons (as they should by the levels in which they'd be encountering such CRs of monsters), the feature makes no difference whatsoever.

So what's the point of it?

[RogueJK]

Throwing them at a party who has no magical weapons isn't necessarily a death sentence. After all, any caster will have the ability to bypass their BPS immunity. Even if there aren't enough casters in the party to take it down in a timely manner, they just may have to retreat, come up with a plan, and come back to re-engage it.

It's only a death sentence if you as the DM throw them into an unwinnable/inescapable situation. Otherwise, it's just a problem to be overcome through ingenuity and resources, like anything else.

A close call with a BPS-immune monster that they barely escaped with their lives could be the impetus for a party member to learn/prepare a spell like Magic Weapon, or for the martials to go buy some oil/acid/Alchemist Fire/etc. to toss at it, or for them to come up with a means to trap it in an area where it can be whittled down from afar with cantrips and other damaging spells.

It can also be used as a mechanism to allow one player to really shine. For example, if you have a Devotion Paladin in the party, they can flip on their Sacred Weapon Channel Divinity and wade into combat to be the primary damage dealer with Sacred Weapon + Smites, while the other party members support them with stuff like buffs, healing, and the Help action.

[Corran]

Hey ya'll!

I've been planning for a low magic setting I eventually want to run a few games in, and I have an area of ruins that is inhabited by a large number of wandering Golems, and their nonmagical BPS immunity has me both excited and worried for how a low to no magic party will handle it. While I'm certain my selected player base will be more than capable of solving the problem in creative ways, it got me thinking about nonmagical BPS and it's place in the game as a whole.

Nonmagical BPS resistance is a feature that comes into play fairly early on in the game, typically around the beginning of Tier 2. This is one of the first scaling difficulty gates when transitioning from one Tier to the next, and is a noticeable barrier that makes the party's new (and presumably rare) magical weapons feel stronger than the regular weapons they started with. While a party can defeat an enemy with N/M BPS resistances without such weapons, it's much more difficult (and can set up a follow up encounter down the road with the same enemy type to show the party how much they've grown).

However, N/M BPS Immunity is, by comparison, a ribbon feature for monsters. Throwing such a creature at a party that doesn't have those weapons is most of the time a death sentence (as they typically deal tons of damage to parties in tier 1 and 1.5) and the party typically doesn't have enough of the requisite magical damage output to destroy one. on the other hand, if the party does have magical weapons (as they should by the levels in which they'd be encountering such CRs of monsters), the feature makes no difference whatsoever.

So what's the point of it?
It's a way to spice up things. Rather than presenting the usual challenge that the players will directly attack and (usually) beat, you do this to change the pace and let them experience something new.

So you put some mcguffin guarded by these golems. Did the players learn about their immunity before getting there? If yes, they must do some preparations. Otherwise they get there, find out they cannot win, retreat (perhaps suffer a few casualties), and then they do the thinking. Maybe they try to steal the mcguffin (or accomplish whatever other goal they want) with the least amount of fightng possible (ideally with no fighting at all). Or they search for ways to get their hands on magic that turns their weapons magical, or on some actual magic weapons. So maybe they hire a wizard or two, or purchase some scrolls from them who happens to have trouble of their own (introduce side plot). Maybe they seek the help of a noble with a small collections of magic weapons who in return asks for some favor (introduce conflict/ difficult decision making). Or maybe they surprise you by doing the unexpected.

For the players this can be rewarding, because if they are victorious, it then feels as if they overcomed a very difficult challenge (or a challenge that they were not even supposed to overcome) by being smart. Even in failing, they might learn to appreciate victories more than they might have done so till now. To the DM this is an opportunity to play off the players' actions and introduce consequences depending on their choices, but it's also rewaring on its own to put the players at a point where they can pick and choose their approach because that means that to some extent you are also waiting to see what will happen next.

[Catullus64]

Theme is an an important part of it, I suspect. Monsters that, for whatever reason, be it unnatural toughness, magical protection, or prophecy, cannot be harmed by mortal weapons, are a staple of fantasy fiction, so I can appreciate the value of creating some such monsters for DMs to use. Your original post already acknowledged that for creative players with a good attitude, a monster immune to conventional attacks is either a signal to retreat and think up a new plan, or to try to get creative in their combat tactics.

[LudicSavant]

However, N/M BPS Immunity is, by comparison, a ribbon feature for monsters. Throwing such a creature at a party that doesn't have those weapons is most of the time a death sentence

Eh. There's a lot of things that can be troublesome if your party doesn't diversify their kit enough to deal with them. A Summer Eladrin in a forest can be something that a slow, melee-reliant party can't catch up to or meaningfully damage. Same goes for something like a flying archer. A Mind Flayer can be something that obliterates an entire party that all has -1 to their Int saves and nothing else to defend themselves. Even goblins can make fools out of some unprepared parties utilizing their bonus action Hide.

Your party is supposed to diversify their kit. If you can get wrecked by an enemy being immune to a damage type, to me that's a failure to make a well-rounded party.

Also this:

Throwing them at a party who has no magical weapons isn't necessarily a death sentence. After all, any caster will have the ability to bypass their BPS resistance, and even the martials can be doing partial damage. Even if there aren't enough casters in the party to take it down in a timely manner, they just may have to retreat, come up with a plan, and come back to re-engage it.

[Rynjin]

Meh. Resistance is severely nerfed in some ways from previous editions, as there is no chance of a player doing ZERO damage to the monster, as the equivalent DR 5 or 10 would sometimes result in. It's just half damage. They can always just whack away at it until it dies, it just takes twice as long.

[Psyren]

However, N/M BPS Immunity is, by comparison, a ribbon feature for monsters. Throwing such a creature at a party that doesn't have those weapons is most of the time a death sentence (as they typically deal tons of damage to parties in tier 1 and 1.5) and the party typically doesn't have enough of the requisite magical damage output to destroy one. on the other hand, if the party does have magical weapons (as they should by the levels in which they'd be encountering such CRs of monsters), the feature makes no difference whatsoever.

So what's the point of it?

Just want to point out that permanent magic weapons are not necessary to do magical BPS damage. Depending on the party they can either do this on their own, or you can throw a couple of scrolls of Magic Weapon their way before an immunity fight.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Just want to point out that permanent magic weapons are not necessary to do magical BPS damage. Depending on the party they can either do this on their own, or you can throw a couple of scrolls of Magic Weapon their way before an immunity fight.

And for golems, specifically, a set of adamantine weapons (+500 gp) is enough. Devils usually can be hurt by silver, as can therianthropes (werewolves, etc). In the MM, Volos, and Mordies, there are 36 (out of 694) that are immune to non-magical BPS (with or without bypasses such as silver/adamantine).

They break down into a few categories:
* Weres (bypass with silver)
* Most constructs (bypass with adamantine)
* Special cases (the 20 below)

The total that are immune to any non-magical BPS is 20:
* Couatl (CR 4)
* Alhoon (CR 10)
* Spirit Troll (CR 11)
* Rakshasa (CR 13, but has a nasty vulnerability to piercing damage from good creatures)
* Mummy Lord
* Steel Predator
* Androsphinx
* Demilich
* Lich
* 8x named demon princes
* Kraken
* Empyrean
* Tarrasque

[Witty Username]

You can soften the blow a bit, I don't think with golems but more generally so allow torches fire damage as improvised weapons. Fire good is an intuitive solution to the "I can't hurt it much".

[RogueJK]

You can soften the blow a bit, I don't think with golems but more generally so allow torches fire damage as improvised weapons. Fire good is an intuitive solution to the "I can't hurt it much".

RAW, Torches deal 1 point of fire damage. That's it. It's in the Torch item description. It's going to take a long time to wittle down a BPS Immune enemy by doing 1 point of damage with each hit.

[Witty Username]

Torches deal 1 point of fire damage, and are otherwise a club doing 1d4 bludgeoning damage, which would be halved by BPS Resistance. So that's 1d4+STR + 1 fire damage.

So unless your regular weapon is a 1d4 Dagger, you're better off just sticking with using your regular weapon with it being halved by BPS Resistance. Any weapon doing 1d6 will do the same average damage as a Torch after Resistance, and anything higher will outdamage it.
True, but I thought we were talking about Immunity. And I don't have the rules in front of me, I was more thinking a ruling/houserule solution. Non-magic fire access is probably a good idea generally.

[RogueJK]

True, but I thought we were talking about Immunity.

Yep, I was editing my response as you quoted.

1 point of damage per hit is not workable when trying to put a BPS-immune enemy down. For example, a basic CR5 Flesh Golem is likely one of the earliest common BPS-immune enemies a party could encounter, and it has 93 HP. That'd require 93 separate hits from a Torch. With the standard 4 person party, even if half of them have Extra Attack, you're looking at a minimum of 16 rounds assuming nobody ever misses with any torch attack or does anything else with their actions during any of those rounds.

RAW, torches are only really useful as weapons when facing enemies like trolls or hydras, who have special interactions with fire damage. Even just 1 point of fire damage in a round is enough to shut off their regeneration, so torches could serve a purpose there, if you have absolutely no other means to apply fire damage.

[rel]

In the scenario where the ability is meaningful (no or few magic weapons), you have a puzzle monster. Something that must be overcome with tactics, requires specialised kit or otherwise requires a trick to defeat.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a puzzle monster, but they can be overused (I think resistance and immunity is overused as a mechanic) or suffer from poor encounter design.

Use them sparingly with careful consideration of their abilities and you can get fun, memorable fights.
Throw wave after wave of resistant / immune creatures at the party and at best the party is prepared and the abilities add nothing interesting.
At worst, combats drag on and become boring and frustrating.

[sithlordnergal]

However, N/M BPS Immunity is, by comparison, a ribbon feature for monsters. Throwing such a creature at a party that doesn't have those weapons is most of the time a death sentence (as they typically deal tons of damage to parties in tier 1 and 1.5) and the party typically doesn't have enough of the requisite magical damage output to destroy one. on the other hand, if the party does have magical weapons (as they should by the levels in which they'd be encountering such CRs of monsters), the feature makes no difference whatsoever.

So what's the point of it?

I actually don't think that this immunity has anything to do with the PCs in this case. In fact, I don't really think Non-Magical Weapon Resistance or Immunity is meant as a barrier for PCs at all. Instead, its meant to act as a gate against NPCs. Think about it, unless you specifically give your NPCs magical weapons or spells, they cannot harm it. Meanwhile the PCs will almost always have a way to bypass Non-magical Resistance/Immunity via spells, abilities, or items. Even in Low Magic games, its ridiculously easy to get a magic weapon.

Its also a good way to force minionmancers to use a different strategy. It doesn't matter how many Zombies or Skeletons the Necromancer brings, how many Velociraptors the Druid summons, or how many Ball Bearings the Bard animates. Unless summons are dealing non-magical damage, they can't really help.

[stoutstien]

Don't forget some of the NPCs abilities and defenses are there for world building purposes. The party of adventures might not be bothered too much by the damage immunities but for the majority of the world it would be practical immortality. A band of adventures being called to handle a werewolf or whatnot is a troupe as old as any of them.

[tokek]

Even at quite low levels you can use a damage immune monster as a plot device to force the pace of the game. Make it narratively slow and plodding so the party, once they figure it out, can dash away from it. Why is it slow? Well it lives forever, it just is in no hurry at all.

From that point on they know they can't be taking any long rests and they might have to think very carefully about short rests because there is an unstoppable enemy just slowly coming after them.

[Keravath]

The point is to provide a different challenge if the DM thinks it is worthwhile.

The DM decides everything the party might encounter. A DM who puts in an enemy the party can't kill without providing some sort of warning in game and in character is setting the party up for a TPK intentionally.

Here are the three scenarios:
1) Party has magic weapons/magic damage - N/M BPS immunity is a non-issue
2) Party has no magic weapons/limited magic damage - N/M BPS immunity is either a plot driver or a TPK
3) Party has some magic weapons/some magic damage - N/M BPS immunity is a different sort of challenge that the party might be able to overcome but they may have to change tactics.

In case 3, the fighter and barbarian don't have a magic weapon - they can't hurt the creature so the actual killing is on other characters in the party. Instead of running up and swinging their sword what does the party do? The party has to think a little bit outside the box. Maybe the fighter and barbarian expend all their actions trying to grapple opponents and hold them in place while the spell casters or those with some form of magic weapon (eg forge cleric, artificer, blade pact warlock - all can create their own magical weapons from level 1, 2, 3) make the attacks. Maybe the party has to fall back on crowd control spells to slow down the opponents while anyone with a magical attack uses them.

Anyway, for a certain level range (usually 4-7 depending on the level of magic in the campaign) a N/M BPS immune monster can provide an interesting and different challenge. However, it is up to the DM to make sure the party is prepared for it or has a way to avoid it or escape when they realize they can't do anything.

[JackPhoenix]

RAW, Torches deal 1 point of fire damage. That's it. It's in the Torch item description. It's going to take a long time to wittle down a BPS Immune enemy by doing 1 point of damage with each hit.

"When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll to the damage."- PHB, 196
You can also add oil for extra 5 damage per hit.

[Frozenstep]

Don't forget some of the NPCs abilities and defenses are there for world building purposes. The party of adventures might not be bothered too much by the damage immunities but for the majority of the world it would be practical immortality. A band of adventures being called to handle a werewolf or whatnot is a troupe as old as any of them.

Yep. When you have whatever godzilla monster rampaging through your city, BPS immunity is the reason why the party needs to handle it. Otherwise whatever army of guards would probably just whittle it down with crossbow bolts thanks to bounded accuracy.

[Marcloure]

So, here is a fun anecdote. I once put a Clay Golem in the way of my players, and none of them had magical or adamantine weapons. They did have 2 full-casters, but expending a ton of slots on this one creature was not worth it, so they had to come up with another solution. They made a plan about baiting the golem towards a pit they had faced earlier in the dungeon, but their solution was actually simpler: just run past the golem. They disengaged, some turned invisible, others flew over the golem, the barbarian dashed away. Since the golem isn't fast, they rapidly opened up a great distance between them and moved on in the dungeon.

Of course, this required that the golem was alone, that the golem is slow (unlike other immune creatures), and that the dungeon was long enough. But I think that even if that was'n't the case, their plan to bait the golem and make it fall into the pit would've worked. My point is: if you put a seemingly impossible situation in from of your players, they'll often find ways to circumvent it. As a GM, you need only to offer enough tools for that, you don't need to come up with a solution. That is the player's job.

[JLandan]

If you are running a low-magic setting, it should apply to the NPCs and monsters as well as the PCs. The simplest solution is to switch immunity to resistance for these Golems.