At will spike growth at a subclass capstone

[Greywander]

I'm hammering out the subclasses for my witch class. One subclass is focused on necromancy and healing; their capstone is that their shadow rises when they drop to 0 HP, allowing them to continue to act for 1 minute, even if they die (also, witches have Revivify on their spell list; this is probably one of the few ways you could cast it on yourself), but at the cost of a level of exhaustion. Another is an ice-themed blaster; their capstone is that they can restrain one enemy per turn for one round after dealing cold damage to it, and they get cold immunity. The last subclass is a nature-themed controller, and I need a feature that is just as amazing as the other two. Is at-will Spike Growth too strong at 14th level? It does use concentration, so you're only recasting it if you need to move it. Is there maybe another suitable feature I could give them?

Spike Growth seemed like a good pick because it's known to be a good spell but is only 2nd level. With pact magic, you might decide to ditch it once you're a bit higher level, since there's no benefit to upcasting, while this allows you to still make use of it. Also, it's still limited by concentration, so there's no benefit to spamming.

[PhillipJokar]

All of it sounds too powerful compared to baseline, including the Spike Growth. So really we would have to know how it compares to the rest of your table.

For baseline advice make the shadow take double death save failures, the cold slow require a failed save and to be from a leveled spell, and Spike Growth free a number of times equal to PB.

[Pildion]

Wizard's get 1st and 2nd level spell they can do at will, but not until level 18. I wouldn't allow this until level 17 or 18.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, this is one specific spell, not choosable.

On the gripping hand, Spike Growth is a pretty good spell, one that a wizard might choose anyway (if they had access to it).

[ender241]

It's honestly hard to judge without seeing the full base class, other subclass features, spell list, etc. Because a lot depends on how it interacts with the rest of the class. Some things to think about:

1. Does it create any easy exploits? For instance, if the witch has spells/features that push/pull people around, that could be a very strong combo with spike growth. Especially if it's multiple times a turn, multiple targets, long distances, etc.

2. Are there arguably better options for things to concentrate on and enough spell slots that there's almost always something in competition with it? For instance, a level 14 wizard is going to have plenty of better options most of the time.

3. Does the witch have other at-will things to do with their action that they might rather do, at least in certain situations? For example, a level 14 fighter would probably rather make their usual 3+ attacks rather than casting spike growth, if able.

Looking at those criteria, an example of a class where this could be OP is Warlock. They have few spell slots and while some higher level concentration spells might be tempting, if they take repelling blast and grasp of hadar they can pinball people around inside spike growth racking up damage without using any resources. Enemies moved far away from it? Just recast it. Then save your spell slots for reaction spells, buffs, utility, etc. The fact that it sounds like the witch is based on some of the same mechanics as the Warlock worries me a little, but maybe it's ok.

What I think you should really strive for in a capstone like that is that it should generally be a tough decision whether to use it or not. And some situations it might make much more sense (e.g. facing a bunch of low CR enemies and you want to save your spell slots) and some where it doesn't (e.g. boss fight where you want to bring out the more powerful concentration spells, if you have them). Basically, it should be good enough to get semi-regular use but not so good that you would use it for every single combat regardless of the situation. And it shouldn't trivialize encounters, at least without using a valuable resource. Finding that middle ground is probably the hardest part of homebrew, as I'm sure you know.

[Greywander]

All of it sounds too powerful compared to baseline,
I'm sure a lot of tweaking will need to be done. Once I hammer out the last few details, I can post it in the homebrew subforum to get feedback. It's hard to evaluate any given feature without seeing the whole thing, and it's hard to properly evaluate something that you've created in an objective way. A second pair of eyes will see things that you'd miss.


the cold slow require a failed save and to be from a leveled spell,
The problem with that is that they use pact magic. They don't have a lot of spell slots. That said, you might be right that it shouldn't apply to cantrips, or perhaps should be limited in use somehow. Maybe it could last longer than a single round if it's more limited in use. I'll think on this one, as well as the death witch one.


and Spike Growth free a number of times equal to PB.
Actually, each subclass already gets something like this, mostly because of pact magic. The death witch gets Prayer of Healing, the ice witch gets Rime's Binding Ice, and the nature witch gets Entangle. Which makes it the odd one out due to being a 1st level spell rather than a 2nd level spell, but they do get it at 3rd level instead of 6th level. Maybe I should switch it around and give them Spike Growth instead of Entangle, but at 6th level like the other subclasses instead of 3rd level.


The fact that it sounds like the witch is based on some of the same mechanics as the Warlock worries me a little, but maybe it's ok.
No Repelling Blast, but they do have access to Thorn Whip. The Telekinetic feat is also available to anyone.


What I think you should really strive for in a capstone like that is that it should generally be a tough decision whether to use it or not. [...] Finding that middle ground is probably the hardest part of homebrew, as I'm sure you know.
Yeah, it's definitely a tricky balance. Though I'd say you're maybe taking a bit of a narrow view of what a capstone could be. There are a couple different options you could go for:

A big ability that costs resources or is usable only once per short or long rest.
A bread-and-butter at-will ability that is expected to be used frequently. <- This is what I was thinking with Spike Growth, also applies to the ice witch capstone
An always-on passive bonus.
A reactive ability used when in specific circumstances, but doesn't help the rest of the time. May or may not be limited use. <- This is where the death witch's ability sits

I'm rethinking using Spike Growth for the capstone. It just feels so bland compared to the others. I want something unique, cool, interesting. An alternative I was considering was an ability similar to Spike Growth, where you summon a flock of birds, insects, etc. to create difficult terrain, block vision, and deal damage for moving through it. You could then reposition the flock as a bonus action. Thing is, I don't really care for this idea, either.

I really like the capstone for the death witch (the ability to have her shadow act for a limited time while she's dead or unconscious). It just fits so well. It's not something you'd use often, but when you do, it makes a big difference. It's one of the only ways you would be able to cast Revivify on yourself, which is just such a bizarre concept that I love it. The ice witch capstone (restraining targets that take cold damage), on the other hand, is something that she would use all the time. But it doesn't really change how she acts in combat, it just makes the things she already does better. I think part of what I don't like about the nature witch capstone is that it's adding a whole new active ability that would suddenly change how you play them. This isn't always bad, and in fact it's the basis for the previously mentioned features where each subclass gets a spell they can cast PB times for free per day. But it just doesn't feel right for this one.

Maybe if I switch out Entangle for Spike Growth, I could have the new capstone enhance Spike Growth in some way. Like, targets caught in it suffer some other kind of penalty, or maybe those inside the area when it's created have to save vs. being restrained by the thorns (or maybe it also casts Entangle on them). Maybe movement costs extra, in addition to being difficult terrain. Heck, we could just combine Spike Growth with Plant Growth (though reduced movement means less damage, though we could also bump the damage). Hmm, I think I'm on to something here.

It also occurred to me that I could replace the ice witch capstone with one that both allows sculpting AoE spells around allies and allows save for no damage cantrips to save for half. They are the blasting subclass, so a bit of Evoker would make sense. I do kind of like the freezing, though, and the witch is supposed to be a debuffer. So it makes sense that the blaster subclass could debuff while blasting.

Edit: I decided to leave it so that the nature witch gets Entangle at 3rd level with PB free uses per long rest, and then the capstone casts Spike Growth for free in the same location when you cast Entangle, and you and creatures you designate can ignore the effects of either spell. We'll see if I might change it again before publishing it, but the class is almost done now.

[ender241]

Though I'd say you're maybe taking a bit of a narrow view of what a capstone could be.

Sorry, I should've been more clear. I didn't mean all capstones should be thought of like that. I meant capstones like this particular one. I.e. ones that grant an at-will ability. You're 100% right though. Capstones can improve characters in a lot of ways.

Sounds like you're still mulling over some different options for it. All neat concepts though, looking forward to seeing the final product!

[Greywander]

Instead of switching out Entangle for Spike Growth and then adding an Entangle effect when casting Spike Growth, I went the other way around. You still get Entangle at 3rd level with PB free castings per long rest, and then the casting also adds the effect of Spike Growth on top of that. Plus, it let's you and creatures you designate ignore the effects of either spell. I think I like this one a lot better, but we'll see if maybe I change it again. The class is almost done, I mostly just need to fill out the invocations, maybe add a few more new spells (I'm mid-writeup for a Walking Hut spell, modeled after Baba Yaga's hut, just not sure how to do it exactly).

It'll be good to have this done, and it looks like it will be fun to play. Admittedly, probably overtuned. But there aren't a lot of good debuffers in 5e, especially since buffing is generally considered better since it doesn't fail. This is why Bless is considered a better spell than Bane. So a class built around debuffing is kind of a new thing. At-will Bane is basically the backbone of the class, and eventually gets BA casting with no concentration upcast to 5th level, so it stays useful the whole game. It will be interesting to see how it plays.

[sambojin]

The Spike Growth thing, even with Entangle on top of it (do you really even want to restrain something inside an SG patch? They've got to move to be damaged) shouldn't be too powerful. Mostly because both are ground-only effects, removing its use from a fair few high level encounters.

It'll be fun being able to SG at will, but I don't think it'll be too powerful. You need to put a bit of effort in for those 2d4s to add up, enemy movement alone won't add to much vs lvl14 encounters. It's not bad, but it's not OP by any stretch of the imagination.

Sure, it's at-will. But no-one complains at lvl14 when a druid blows a lvl2 slot on casting spike growth, they just see it as an opportunity for some grappling/forced movement fun. It'll be just this, but whenever you want, instead of "something to do with lower level slots every once in a while". It's still a concentration spell, so you've usually got better things to do. It'll be fine.