Thought experiment: 1st level gestalt

[Jay R]

I have a weird idea for a thought experiment. This is not something I’m considering doing; it’s just playing games with the rules.

Suppose you could start out as a gestalt with two 1st level classes. But from then on, you level up one level at a time. This would allow you to take a one-level dip in one class without losing a level of progression elsewhere.

Your wizard could have a single level of Fighter, for more hit points. Your Ranger, Fighter, or Paladin could have a single level of Sorcerer, and cast Enlarge Person on herself.

So here are my questions:

1. What combination(s) do you think are good uses for this, and why?

2. What are the traps? What combinations look good, but are ultimately close to useless?

3. What potential abuses do you see? [You can be an Ultimate Magus without dropping behind in your Wizard progression, for instance. Is that a problem?]

4. Would this be an interesting game to play? [Yes, I know any D&D can be fun, but does this proposal add something that looks appealing to you?]

Again, I’m not considering doing this; just playing with the rules.

[Analytica]

I rather like the idea that multiclassing does not stack but overlap. So a 5th level commoner, say, starting to take sorcerer levels would become commoner 5 // sorcerer 1, meaning they gain lvl 1 sorcerer spellcasting, better will save, a familiar but nothing else. This way you can always broaden your skills learning new things, but doing so does not mean your absolute power level goes up. That could involve more classes too, each likewise overlapping but not stacking.

[rel]

Maybe combine it with a lowered level cap like an alternative to e6?

[zlefin]

1. I'd assume somewhat similar to those that are typically good in gestalt: one primary active class, and a second class which focuses on passive bonuses. Since it's just one level, I'd expect it to focus on the most dip-friendly classes; looking to pick up proficiencies, useful abilities, particularly scaling with stats ones, as well as simply buffing numbers by getting more good saves/bab/hp/skills.
Spells often aren't quite so useful for such a dip, as your uses/day are very slim, and without the scaling of caster level even the buffs often don't last long enough to be worth the action cost.
I'd trend toward Barb, fighter, and monk, for core options. outside of core, there's so many it's hard to choose, but ToB dips, Marshal, or Dragon Shaman come to mind.

3. You'd need to decide how this interacts with prestige class rules. Full gestalt rules recommend disallowing certain prestige classes; whether that'd apply here is an open question. The one gestalt level would be enough to allow entering certain PrCs a level earlier than would otherwise be possible. I'm not sure if that actually breaks anything, but it's something to keep an eye on.

4. I'm not sure it adds much; since anything you could do with this you could also do by simply starting one level higher and having a level in both classes. The only real difference is that by having it be gestalt people won't feel penalized for slowing their primary class progression down.
An interesting theme game might be if the whole party has the same gestalted class, so they're all /monk1 or somesuch.
It's an interesting though experiment to build characters for though.

[bekeleven]

I feel like I'd gestalt almost any class with a high-skills class, because the x4 bump at first level is just that good. (changeling) Rogue, Factotum, Human Paragon, or what have you. Most builds can use 4 ranks in a bunch of skills.


Maybe combine it with a lowered level cap like an alternative to e6?
One E6 version I've seen worked like this. Instead of buying bonus feats, you could buy gestalts.

So you'd level up to 6, as I dunno, a cleric 5/Church Inquisitor 1. Then you buy a "Gestalt Fighter" level. At this point I assumed I'd gestalt my first level with fighter (moving my D8 HD to D10, gaining no saves, etc.) but the way the person ran it was that you'd always have access to your 6 highest BAB, your 6 highest of each save, your 6 highest HD, etc. So it actually replaces your bad fort save level with fighter's good fort save level, even though church inquisitor was taken last.

[Gnaeus]

Spells often aren't quite so useful for such a dip, as your uses/day are very slim, and without the scaling of caster level even the buffs often don't last long enough to be worth the action cost.

Yes and no. Your spells cast aren't great. But having a spell list so you can use cleric or Sor/Wiz wands is very helpful.

Cleric has its own 1level dipping guide. Not only do you get to use all those nice wands, you get 2 good saves, heavy armor, decent HP, 2 domains which can be traded out for devotions or come with feat equivalents and help qualify for PRCs, and a pile of turn attempts for fueling those devotions or other cheese. Just looking at 2, knowledge devotion is a big boost for most attackers and travel devotion is roughly equivalent to pounce. Cloistered Cleric is an attractive ACF.

[Jervis]

Any class that is a good 1 level dip is a good 1 level Gestalt. Barbarian 1 with all the things replaced by ACFs is already a stable in any class that attacks in melee. Marshal 1 is amazing for any face or any skill monkey in general because charisma on top of charisma with good skill points and armor profs at level 1 is very good for those. Sha’ir for example would do this in a heart beat. Non-cleric divine casters might want a fighter dip for armor and HP. 1 level in Monk is unironically not bad for a Druid because free AC if you don’t loose anything. Wizard 1 for a rogue it’s a familiar, abrupt jaunt, and the ability to not care about UMD for wizard spells. The ToB classes are good, the first level gives 1 initiator level and lets you take level 2 later to get higher level stances. Barbarians could maybe take fighter for a feat and armor prof. Rangers could take Paladin to be doubly useless, bonus points if you take a feat to not loose the ability to take class levels and advance them at alternating levels for maximum badness.

Oh and factotum, factotum for all the class skills and some nice other things.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As I mentioned in another thread, a level in shaper psion is fantastic even at extremely high levels, if only for psionic minor creation. The amount of power and versatility "1 cu ft/lvl of any plant matter in any shape for 1 hour/lvl" can give you is insane. Yes, 2 levels is much better (with Linked Power, to shorten your manifesting time to "negligible"), and you can swap that extra level out for Practiced Manifester if your overall level is 2+ (which is great, especially for PMC), but still.

[Endarire]

@Maxi:
What are some spiffy examples of psionic minor creation being wonderful even at low levels?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

@Maxi:
What are some spiffy examples of psionic minor creation being wonderful even at low levels?Oil to make oil slicks (flammable ones, even) and to make objects (such as weapons and shields) really hard to hold and use; wood and amber to make tools and dishes and jewelry (including stuff like lockpicks, 10' poles, and rope); tar (made from pine pitch) to use as adhesive to stick people and things to other people and things (and it's also flammable!); flour to counter invisible foes or to create dust explosions or to leave a trail behind you so others can follow; poisons with a decent Craft (Poison) or Craft (Alchemy) check (including drow knockout poison, canonically made from mushrooms, as well as black lotus poison, or even something as simple as poison oak/ivy/sumac sap); painkillers (such as aspirin, which is extracted from willowbark) and other medicinal supplies and concoctions (yay for cotton-based bandages, wooden splints, and plant-based home remedies!); wooden weapons and armor (including items normally made from metal, since ironwood is a thing); and even snack food to serve at soirees (which won't even make your guests fat!).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg of stuff you can use it for. "Plant matter" is a ridiculously broad and deep category of stuff to draw from, after all.

[Maat Mons]

Dipping a class with good skills has already been mentioned, but no one's said anything about Able Learner. Maybe people just figure it goes without saying?

Rogue 1 // Wizard 5 would be a nice entry to Unseen Seer.

Ninja 1 // Cloistered Cleric X would get wide skill access (with Able Learner), plenty of skill points, and Wis to AC.

Ninja 1 // Druid X doesn't get as many skill points, but the stealth and perception skills would pair nicely with innocuous animal forms for scouting.



Sadly, by RAW, neither Carmendine Monk nor Kung Fu Genius works with a Ninja's AC bonus. Ascetic Psion does, but its prerequisites suck.

Monk 1 // Wizard X, then, is what you're stuck with for Int to AC.

Monk 1 // Archivist X would work for the divine equivalent.



Monk 1 // Ardent X if your DM doesn't let zero Monk levels work as the base for stacking Tashalatora.

[nedz]

It's useful for multi-threat builds in that you can often save a level.

Grabbing those sweat 1 level dips for free is also solid.

A free +1 LA or 1 RHD would also be cool.

So it's a power up.

Making everyone take one level of the same thematic class would be interesting - be that Rogue or Aristocrat, say.

I was recently mulling over a Monsters Inc. game where you give everyone 5 levels, say, of free gestalt - provided that those gestalt levels are LA or RHD.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oil to make oil slicks (flammable ones, even) and to make objects (such as weapons and shields) really hard to hold and use; wood and amber to make tools and dishes and jewelry (including stuff like lockpicks, 10' poles, and rope); tar (made from pine pitch) to use as adhesive to stick people and things to other people and things (and it's also flammable!); flour to counter invisible foes or to create dust explosions or to leave a trail behind you so others can follow; poisons with a decent Craft (Poison) or Craft (Alchemy) check (including drow knockout poison, canonically made from mushrooms, as well as black lotus poison, or even something as simple as poison oak/ivy/sumac sap); painkillers (such as aspirin, which is extracted from willowbark) and other medicinal supplies and concoctions (yay for cotton-based bandages, wooden splints, and plant-based home remedies!); wooden weapons and armor (including items normally made from metal, since ironwood is a thing); and even snack food to serve at soirees (which won't even make your guests fat!).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg of stuff you can use it for. "Plant matter" is a ridiculously broad and deep category of stuff to draw from, after all.Oh, and one other thing; psionic minor creation doesn't specify what kind of temperature or state of being the plant matter must be in, so it might be possible for any material you create to be either frozen, boiling, or even burning. Boiling pitch is still plant matter, after all, and nobody said it had to be room-temperature.

Also, there are lots of non-magical esoteric plant materials, such as livewood, serrenwood, and soarwood, which can grant nonmagical items seemingly supernatural properties.

[liquidformat]

Here are some that come to mind for me:

Elven Cleric 1/Ranger X; for an archer dipping 1 level of cleric is great for snagging extra feats to bring a bit more bang to your build.
Psychic Warrior 1/melee X; you can get some really nice stuff like expansion to beef up your melee
Wizard 1/Ranger x or Wizard 1/Mystic Ranger x or Wizard 1/Paladin x; to take advantage of Sword of arcane order. A fun one off the top of my head:
Bamboo Spirit Folk Combat Immediate Magic Conjurer 1/Predator Shooting Star Mystic Ranger Arcane Hunter 5/Beastmaster 1/Arcane Hierophant 10/Nar Demonbinder 4

While a lot of the ToB classes are great for dipping I normally don't dip them at level 1 since you get some ML for your ECL and not just your martial class levels it is often better to cherry pick the levels at which you dip. For example, for a daring outlaw build I normally shoot for taking two levels of swordsage one at ~8th and ~11th so I can get useful abilities like assassin's stance.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Crusader is a great 1st level dip for a mundane melee martial, for in-combat healing, if nothing else.

[Telonius]

Gestalting Rogue with Fighter or Swashbuckler could significantly beef them up. Better weapon proficiencies. Rogue builds are always feat-starved, and being able to get that +1 BAB (and getting Weapon Finesse at first level) could be really useful.

Similar thing for Bards. 1-level Gestalt for Warblade or Crusader sounds like it would be a pretty sweet deal.

[pabelfly]

Theurge-style builds would appreciate entering their theurge prestige class a level early and another level of their preferred spellcasting class. For example, a Psion/Wizard Cerebromancer would start the Cerebromancer class at level 6 instead of 7 (without early entry tricks) and get an extra level of spellcasting or manifesting too.