Is Vow of Poverty aright for a druid?

[Halphinian]

I am playing in a new campaign, and my character is a 7th level weasel druid from Savage Species. For flavor, I kind of want to take Vow of Poverty, as my weasel would have little concept of personal property and think that their druidic powers would be enough to sustain them. However, there are so many magic items in the game, I don't want to feel like I made the wrong choice later on. So, in your opinion, is Vow of Poverty alright for a druid?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Druid is one of the few classes VoP works reasonably well for, if it's houseruled to be decent instead of dumb. Most of the feats it grants are usable for a druid (although most of them are still largely awful), and wild shape means you likely can't use items anyway.

However, if your race is an important part of your character and you don't want to be wild shaped all the time, it's less useful.

Also, talk to your DM and see if he or she will houserule it so your restrictions are reasonable instead of the stupidity of RAW, and houserule that you can't break it on accident. Honestly, I'd say you should be able to use anything under 10 or so gp without breaking it, and you can use items (magic or otherwise) for others' benefit without breaking it either. So you could carry potions and wands to use on your party members and friendly or neutral bystanders, but not yourself, and not offensively, as an example. Also, change it so that reading a sign, or entering a building, or opening a door, or looking at a painting, or setting off a trap won't break your vows. Incidental uses of items and property, in other words.

[Troacctid]

It's a lot better on the animal companion than on the druid itself.

Generally, VoP is going to underperform compared to standard WBL. Druid has it better than most because there are actually some good exalted feats for druids. However, there are also some good magic items for druids, and you'll be missing out on those. Also, several of the benefits of voluntary poverty are things druids already natively have. So, yeah, not worth it compared to standard WBL.

On the other hand! Maybe you don't have standard WBL. Maybe your DM is stingy with item drops. Or maybe you're an NPC, and you only have NPC wealth. If, for whatever reason, you're expecting to end up with less access to magic items than usual, the value of VoP proportionally increases as a result.

[rel]

It's vastly weaker than having WBL of magic items tailored to your build.
And the vow is worded poorly, so if your table enforces the RaW blindly and without hesitation there may be roleplaying challenges.

But a druid is still a druid and fully capable of effectively contributing to an adventuring party with such a handicap.


If you just want to roleplay someone with no real knowledge of gear, I'd say leave VoP alone and just roleplay it.

That way your character can happily use any item if they happen to figure it out, and if the no gear thing gets boring they can drop it without issue.

And the party can take all that loot you aren't using without jumping through the hoops of setting up a dodgy charitable organisation that helpfully takes your share and uses it to 'do good'

[Seward]

On the other hand! Maybe you don't have standard WBL. Maybe your DM is stingy with item drops. Or maybe you're an NPC, and you only have NPC wealth. If, for whatever reason, you're expecting to end up with less access to magic items than usual, the value of VoP proportionally increases as a result.

I've always thought that those GM's who are stingy with loot or just aesthetically dislike every adventurer covered head to foot in magic items should just give out an equivalent of Vow of Poverty for free. It really isn't that hard.

Give every character a +1 resistance bonus to saves every 3 levels to max of 5. Give them a +2 enhancement bonus to constitution and primary attack stat every 5 levels to max of 6. Give +2 enhancement every 8 levels to two more stats of the player's choice. (many classes benefit from a secondary boost somewhere, this is often fit in with a +2 ioun stone where item slots conflict, but they often don't go all the way up to +6 - charisma for clerics and paladins, strength for archers, dex for light fighters or heavy infantry that really dumped dex at character creation or arcane casters or anyone who wants a bit higher reflex save or initiative, wisdom for anybody who wants to boost a will save etc)

Give them a +1 enhancement bonus to all attack and damage rolls done via weapons (not weaponlike spells) every 4 levels, and give them +1 enhancement bonus to any armor or shield they are wearing for every 4 levels. Not everybody bothers with deflection bonuses or natural armor bonuses, so those are ok to stay on permanent items or via potions etc, but if you want to add something for this too, add natural armor and deflection bonuses of +1/6 levels (that's in line with the cost spent to add +1 ac in most efficient way past the +5 for armor and shield. It gets really pricey past +3). You might want to tie these to an item slot somehow, as you don't get the free armor/shield bonus without actually using armor or a shield, or it could be free.

Boom. You now have the expected minimum PC stats for WBL and can give out NPC level or quirky loot and not break the game past level 6. Maybe also drastically reduce scribing costs for spellbooks at the same time, that tax on wizards is kind of stupid since clerics and druids don't have to do anything similar. You can still restrict the spellbook via access (culture where nobody trades spells except in extraordinary circumstances, more like Ars Magica behaviors, so most is got through captured scrolls or enemy spellbooks).

A slightly less gamist version would be to have "magic armor or magic shield" cost masterwork+1000, "magic weapon" cost masterwork+2000, "ring of protection" cost 2000, "amulet of natural armor" cost 2000 and then have them automatically scale the bonuses up on higher level people, just using the Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment formula of +1/4 levels with all of them. I still think the attribute enhancement bonuses and resistance to saves should be free as absolutely everybody needs those, where AC investment is a character choice that not all characters bother with. So your warrior is at a disadvantage if he's using mundane gear vs magic gear, but any magic gear will reflect his internal power with basic enchants. You can still spend more wealth on armor add-ons like restful or energy resistance, or weapon add-ons like holy or flaming.

You also free up a lot of item slots for quirky loot, or for MIC-type items that are cheap with limited per-day abilites that don't conflict with getting your basic gloves of dex or whatever.

[RandomPeasant]

Vow of Poverty Druid is probably the best Vow of Poverty class. It's still likely worse than regular Druid, but not so much as you'd notice. The exception to this is if you believe it is possible to "cheat" the Vow, by somehow allowing your companions to keep your share of the treasure (rather than having to give it away), in which case the benefit from giving everyone else 33% more loot exceeds the difference between WBL and the Vow for a Druid.


I've always thought that those GM's who are stingy with loot or just aesthetically dislike every adventurer covered head to foot in magic items should just give out an equivalent of Vow of Poverty for free. It really isn't that hard.

This is probably a good idea in general. If you give people ~Vow of Poverty for free, it fixes a couple of big problems the system has. Not needing items makes a much wider variety of campaigns possible, and allows you to move away from WBL (which enables a wider variety still). Giving people free feats (assuming your free ~Vow gives non-Exalted feats) also helps with the issue of people generally not getting enough feats. It's not really as good a solution as tackling those problems directly, but if you feel the need to start from official 3.5 content, it works as well as anything.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Vow of Poverty Druid is probably the best Vow of Poverty class. It's still likely worse than regular Druid, but not so much as you'd notice. The exception to this is if you believe it is possible to "cheat" the Vow, by somehow allowing your companions to keep your share of the treasure (rather than having to give it away), in which case the benefit from giving everyone else 33% more loot exceeds the difference between WBL and the Vow for a Druid.Honestly, the party is having to work extra-hard to make up for the VoP character's crappiness due to the restrictions and problems they cause, so they really ought to get the extra WBL to compensate. It's not like most groups with an exalted character aren't doing good deeds out of the goodness of their hearts, so they'd be considered a charitable organization in every way I can see.

[RandomPeasant]

In general, sure, but a VoP Druid is still going to be better than a lot of other adventures because, you know, Druid. If I were to allow VoP, I would probably allow it just because I think any attempt for the Vow to stop it ends up being dumb and bad, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect that your DM will let you take an option that is defined by its drawback on a class that is already powerful and can mostly ignore the drawback just to ignore it completely.

[loky1109]

It's a lot better on the animal companion than on the druid itself.

As DM I'll never allow this and I think I'm not alone on this. So it isn't universal guidance.

[bekeleven]

I'll echo what's already been said. Druid already has one of the highest floors and one of the highest ceilings of any class. VoP lowers the ceiling, but less than it does for other classes, and it actually raises their floor.

So if you're optimizing, you'll be less powerful, but unless you're in a party with other optimized casters your power level will still at least be acceptable.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You may also ask the DM if you can just replace the exalted bonus feats with any feats you qualify for, then go for useful soulmelds, wild shape enhancers, animal companion boosters, and metamagic. Because even houseruled, VoP is pretty bad, and dumping a bunch of exalted feats few people would use otherwise on top of that is just insulting.

[Wildstag]

Also, talk to your DM and see if he or she will houserule it so your restrictions are reasonable instead of the stupidity of RAW, and houserule that you can't break it on accident. Honestly, I'd say you should be able to use anything under 10 or so gp without breaking it, and you can use items (magic or otherwise) for others' benefit without breaking it either. So you could carry potions and wands to use on your party members and friendly or neutral bystanders, but not yourself, and not offensively, as an example. Also, change it so that reading a sign, or entering a building, or opening a door, or looking at a painting, or setting off a trap won't break your vows. Incidental uses of items and property, in other words.

I see complaints like this all the time, but what GMs out there are actually that draconian and sinister? Like, I know 3.5-forums exist in a "everyone's ALWAYS PERFECTLY RAW at all times", but I've played VoP at multiple tables, both physical and online, more than a handful of times in the time since 2007 and I've literally never seen anyone actually do that.

Forum discussion of VoP is like the standard assumption about Rings of Three Wishes. A GM that's worth playing with won't be a jerk and twist it to be useless. They'll do what makes sense.

Generally GMs don't want to go home with a black eye and a fractured game group...

P.S. I mean more to the last sentence of the statement. The second statement seems like it conflicts with the third; what potions and wands are under 10 gp?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I see complaints like this all the time, but what GMs out there are actually that draconian and sinister? Like, I know 3.5-forums exist in a "everyone's ALWAYS PERFECTLY RAW at all times", but I've played VoP at multiple tables, both physical and online, more than a handful of times in the time since 2007 and I've literally never seen anyone actually do that.

Forum discussion of VoP is like the standard assumption about Rings of Three Wishes. A GM that's worth playing with won't be a jerk and twist it to be useless. They'll do what makes sense.

Generally GMs don't want to go home with a black eye and a fractured game group...I've had one that would do this kind of thing for sure (he was a major jerk) and another that might do it if the only person to ever want to take VoP in the group wasn't one of his favorites (as he played favorites rather badly).

So, yeah, make sure the DM isn't going to screw you over by agreeing to much looser restrictions and some better benefits when asking to play with VoP.

But even without that, VoP would for sure screw you over itself if you, say, tried to use a potion on a dying teammate to save them, since that very much breaks the crap out of it, and there's no way to fix it if you break your vow.

[Wildstag]

I've had one that would do this kind of thing for sure (he was a major jerk) and another that might do it if the only person to ever want to take VoP in the group wasn't one of his favorites (as he played favorites rather badly).

So, yeah, make sure the DM isn't going to screw you over by agreeing to much looser restrictions and some better benefits when asking to play with VoP.

But even without that, VoP would for sure screw you over itself if you, say, tried to use a potion on a dying teammate to save them, since that very much breaks the crap out of it, and there's no way to fix it if you break your vow.

I rephrase but echo my earlier statement. If you can find people that are openly toxic and hostile towards the players, you can take the time to find actual friends willing to play the game. No need to play with someone that'd rather shaft a player than have a good time with them.

And further, some of that isn't so much an issue with the feat, it's an issue with the playerbase.

Plus, I'm fairly certain that "own or use" is applying to personal goods, and not material possessions as a whole, or else you wouldn't be able to exist with the feat's effects in any kingdom or claimed territories.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I rephrase but echo my earlier statement. If you can find people that are openly toxic and hostile towards the players, you can take the time to find actual friends willing to play the game. No need to play with someone that'd rather shaft a player than have a good time with them.It's still something you need to talk about, since many of the vows (especially VoP and VoN) highly encourage toxic behavior. Hammering that out beforehand helps fix a problem before it becomes one.

[Malphegor]

Vow of poverty is basically ‘nah I don’t want wbl’, and druids are one of the more self sufficient classes going.

That said. The feats you can get through vow of poverty are really fun, but they might not be as entertaining or as sustainable as the stuff you can buy on a standard Fantasy Mart.

It’s a tough one. Few others can really make do with it as well as a druid but also druids kinda don’t need it either

[TristanS]

The problem I've seen with VoP is that you quickly run out of useful feats as you get higher ... there are a few great ones, but at some point it's hard to even find one you want for free, let alone find useful.

[eggynack]

The problem I've seen with VoP is that you quickly run out of useful feats as you get higher ... there are a few great ones, but at some point it's hard to even find one you want for free, let alone find useful.
Druids are pretty good about that. Between exalted wild shape, exalted companion, and maybe words of creation if you're feeling spicy, you're getting a solid number of "real feats" beyond what you'd get with most classes. Like, the first two of those are decidedly real, and the third is maybe a half-feat? Then you get the more generally applicable stuff, like nimbus of light, nymph's kiss, touch of golden light, and sanctify natural weapon (except, y'know, sometimes it's a different one of those) and those are p neat too. You definitely start scraping the bottom of the barrel at some point, with low impact vows and tiny situational bonuses, but I guess the real point is that druids do better than break even. VoP costs two feats after all, and I feel like a lot of classes don't even recoup that baseline cost feat-wise.

[holbita]

As I see it...

How much can you tailor your gear in this adventure? Do you have access to a magic mart? Are you dependant on percentage rolls for items? How much wealth are you receiving?

All of those questions are uncertainties. VoP is very clear on what you get, so if you expect to get less or equal to what VoP is giving you then go for VoP if your GM is allowing custom magic items... then go for those.

That being said, druid is one of the best users of VoP and a Tier 1 class at it, so you may just want to take it even if it's just for balance in the party, even with VoP you should still be stronger than some of your party members depending on what they are going for.

I've played a few VoP characters and I can tell you that low to mid level you are not really missing that much, that's also a point to take into consideration, your level, the higher level you are the more broken items you are missing on.

Still Druid 20 with VoP is viable, so I would say go for it even if it's just for trying it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You might consider taking a single-level dip in monk for the boosts it gives you, or even in incarnate, since soulmelds won't interfere with your vow at all, and your chakra usage is unrestricted by the issue of magic items. Although wearing ethereal blue equipment while sneaking around as a squirrel might cause some trouble for you.

[Seward]

As I see it...

How much can you tailor your gear in this adventure? Do you have access to a magic mart? Are you dependant on percentage rolls for items? How much wealth are you receiving?

On a much less extreme scale this is the appeal of both Arcane Archer ("I can't count on getting a proper magic weapon or Greater Magic Weapon from my party/gm) and Dragon Disciple (I want to be really strong and can't count on getting a strength belt) and the 5 minute adventuring day in WBL-poor campaigns "We'll substitute buffs for items and give the GM the middle finger for starving us of loot")

VoP isn't a great solution, but it probably works better if the whole party goes down that road as a statement that they don't trust the GM to provide game-appropriate wealth.

[Darg]

But even without that, VoP would for sure screw you over itself if you, say, tried to use a potion on a dying teammate to save them, since that very much breaks the crap out of it, and there's no way to fix it if you break your vow.

Nothing in the feat prevents you from using a companions potion on them. It gives direct permission to use one they give you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nothing in the feat prevents you from using a companions potion on them. It gives direct permission to use one they give you.It says you can benefit from a potion an ally gives you, not that you can carry a potion to use on others or that you can use a potion someone gives you on someone else that isn't you.

Honestly, the rules on that are horrible and horribly written, no matter how you slice it. Stupidly strict in a lot of ways and way too loosely defined in others, and even in some of the same ways.

[Endarire]

Eggynack's Druid Guide (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook) has a section on Exalted Druids and Vow of Poverty.