Impact of moving Cha to attacks from Hexblade to pact of the blade?

[H_H_F_F]

As the title says. If we nerf Hex Warrior to only grant proficiencies, and make pact of the blade offer Cha to attacks with the pact weapon, how would the different subclasses be impacted?

Obviously, the hexblade itself becomes a less compelling 1-level dip, and is weaker at levels one and two, but plays the same from level 3 onward.

But how are the other patrons impacted? Do any of them in particular become more attractive martials?

[Frogreaver]

Armor is still a major issue. So probably doesn’t do that much for martial warlocks.

[Pildion]

As the title says. If we nerf Hex Warrior to only grant proficiencies, and make pact of the blade offer Cha to attacks with the pact weapon, how would the different subclasses be impacted?

Obviously, the hexblade itself becomes a less compelling 1-level dip, and is weaker at levels one and two, but plays the same from level 3 onward.

But how are the other patrons impacted? Do any of them in particular become more attractive martials?

By themselves not really, you would be in melee with 14 Dex and light armor. Going 1 or 2 levels in Fighter\Paladin and dropping Dex for Str and wearing heavy armor would make this allow almost any subclass melee viable.

[Eldariel]

Would help Moderately Armored builds. I prefer Genie for my martial warlock with that alteration.

[JLandan]

One thing to consider: RAW Hexblade gets this at 1st. Your proposal would be good for any patron, but would not come in till 3rd level.

[ender241]

Yeah, the best way to build a non-Hexblade melee warlock currently is to take pact of the tome instead of pact of the blade, ironically. This let's them pick up shillelagh and then use a bladetrip. So this change might actually make bladelocks competitive with that route. And as others have said, armor proficiency can be picked up through feats or multiclassing.

[Hael]

One would likely have to compensate level 1 hexblades in some way. Maybe a fighting style or something like that, b/c they will be garbage melee lvl 1-3 with str as a dump stat, and thats very much their schtick..

More generally, there will be a lvl 1-2 problem for all blade pact melee locks (who will be less good at melee than regular locks).

Fundamentally the design snafu is really that the pact should be lvl1 and the class feature should be lvl 3.

[Eldariel]

One would likely have to compensate level 1 hexblades in some way. Maybe a fighting style or something like that, b/c they will be garbage melee lvl 1-3 with str as a dump stat, and thats very much their schtick..

I disagree. If they're fighting, they really have little reason to not have a decent Dex and they can Dex Melee just fine on those levels; 14 Dex is plenty on a level where your Cha is at most 16 (-1/-1, not a big deal). They already get full armor + shield proficiencies and Hexblade's Curse on 1: they really don't need anything more (indeed, it's still ridiculously good on non-fighting Warlocks, which is kinda one of the big issues in the first place; getting armors and 1/SR Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile/Eldritch Blast/Scorching Ray on 1 is just sweet and competitive with any other option).

[Saelethil]

One would likely have to compensate level 1 hexblades in some way. Maybe a fighting style or something like that, b/c they will be garbage melee lvl 1-3 with str as a dump stat, and thats very much their schtick..

More generally, there will be a lvl 1-2 problem for all blade pact melee locks (who will be less good at melee than regular locks).

Fundamentally the design snafu is really that the pact should be lvl1 and the class feature should be lvl 3.

I don’t fully agree with your premise here ( as Eldariel points out they will still want a decent dex.) but what if the Pact Boon came in at 1st level and the effects of the Patron came at 3?
So a character finds a book, weapon, talisman, or something. They find that it gives them power so they bind themselves to it only to find later on that they bound themselves to some powerful entity that expects their obedience. There are obviously other stories that could go along with this kind of change but that was the first to my mind.
In this case, giving Blade pact the Cha. attack is still a solid level 1 feature but they wouldn’t get the other beefy Hexblade stuff until a couple levels later.

[JLandan]

I disagree. If they're fighting, they really have little reason to not have a decent Dex and they can Dex Melee just fine on those levels; 14 Dex is plenty on a level where your Cha is at most 16 (-1/-1, not a big deal). They already get full armor + shield proficiencies and Hexblade's Curse on 1: they really don't need anything more (indeed, it's still ridiculously good on non-fighting Warlocks, which is kinda one of the big issues in the first place; getting armors and 1/SR Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile/Eldritch Blast/Scorching Ray on 1 is just sweet and competitive with any other option).

I'm confused. Hexblades do not get Magic Missle or Scorching Ray at any level. Fiend Warlocks or Efreeti genie Warlocks can get Scorching Ray at 3rd. Only a Tome Warlock can get Magic Missle at 3rd with Book of Ancient Secrets invocation.

[Hael]

I disagree. If they're fighting, they really have little reason to not have a decent Dex and they can Dex Melee just fine on those levels; 14 Dex is plenty on a level where your Cha is at most 16 (-1/-1, not a big deal). They already get full armor + shield proficiencies and Hexblade's Curse on 1: they really don't need anything more (indeed, it's still ridiculously good on non-fighting Warlocks, which is kinda one of the big issues in the first place; getting armors and 1/SR Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile/Eldritch Blast/Scorching Ray on 1 is just sweet and competitive with any other option).

Yes I know, but if your concept is something like the stereotypical GWM pamlock its just a bit weird to have to use a rapier for 2 lvls. Its just clumsy design who’s main purpose is to remove the dip problem, which can be dealt with in other ways (like simply saying no). I mean a hexblade really is probably bonding with the same weapon type that his patron is. So is the patron a rapier that mutates into a Halberd?

Also for a variant human build, it would preclude them from most benefits of Pole arm mastery or GWM until 3.

[Evaar]

You'd want to include the armor proficiencies with the Pact of the Blade - shield and medium armor or, at least, medium armor but not shields. Really though, shields should be included. If you want other Patron Warlocks to have compelling reason to use Pact of the Blade, they need the armor proficiency. Yes this does mean the character changes significantly at level 3, I think that's just a reality we have to accept. That's also the case with Shillelagh-Locks, Battlesmiths, Armorers, Moon Druids, Bladesingers, etc.

The Hex Warrior feature should be deleted and a new, minor feature designed to fill out level 1. Ideally something with more utility than combat focus - Hexblade's Curse already fulfills the combat power at level 1. Compare to other subclasses, the originals only get 1 feature beyond the bonus spell list, and the newer ones get 1 utility feature and 1 combat feature. Those combat features roughly equal the power of Hexblade's Curse but fit different niches.

So, y'know, something between ribbon and utility that'll connect thematically to Hexblade. Like the ability to immediately recognize cursed items and the parameters of that curse.

[ender241]

Yes I know, but if your concept is something like the stereotypical GWM pamlock its just a bit weird to have to use a rapier for 2 lvls. Its just clumsy design who’s main purpose is to remove the dip problem, which can be dealt with in other ways (like simply saying no). I mean a hexblade really is probably bonding with the same weapon type that his patron is. So is the patron a rapier that mutates into a Halberd?

Also for a variant human build, it would preclude them from most benefits of Pole arm mastery or GWM until 3.

I'm not sure I agree. And there's precedent for it in other classes/subclasses. The best parallel is probably the Armorer. At levels 1 and 2 they are going to be stuck using cantrips or something with dex/str (even though they could have easily dumped both). Only at level 3 can they start using Int for weapon attacks with their armor. And in general It's not uncommon to have to use a different strategy at lower levels until your build comes fully online. Part of planning out your character should factor that in. And hexblades are still in great shape at low levels with EB making them just as potent as many others at that level.

Edit: Battlesmith is maybe an even better example, as they're in the exact same boat if they want to use a heavy weapon eventually.

[Hael]

Edit: Battlesmith is maybe an even better example, as they're in the exact same boat if they want to use a heavy weapon eventually.

Yep, I share the same concerns with those classes. Artificers dont in general have a great lvl 1-2 design (they probably should get their subclass features at lvl 1 or 2 and infusions at lvl 2 or 3 but thats another story).

[Evaar]

Yep, I share the same concerns with those classes. Artificers dont in general have a great lvl 1-2 design (they probably should get their subclass features at lvl 1 or 2 and infusions at lvl 2 or 3 but thats another story).

Okay but we're talking about redesigning this one feature, not every class, so I think it's a little beyond the scope of this thread to object to design suggestions on the premise that none of the classes in the game should have been designed the way these ones are.

[ender241]

Yep, I share the same concerns with those classes. Artificers dont in general have a great lvl 1-2 design (they probably should get their subclass features at lvl 1 or 2 and infusions at lvl 2 or 3 but thats another story).
Then you'd open up the same issue we have with hexblades though. If a 1 level dip in Artificer can make you Int SAD they would become extremely popular for Bladesingers, Bloodhunters, EKs, etc. And we'd then be talking about ways to limit that.

[Chronos]

I certainly think that a one-level dip to make paladins SAD is way overpowered, and this would fix that. A paladin becoming SAD is worth about two and a half ASIs, which is far too much to gain from a single level.

[animorte]

Impact of moving Cha to attacks from Hexblade to pact of the blade?

Then Pact of the Blade might actually be used for anything other than Hexblade. I think it also needed better invocations.

Tome is extremely versatile because you can essentially choose whatever you want, but very balanced because it's all low level stuff. Gets a lot better when including invocations.

Chain (as is) is probably the best out of PHB just because of how much you can accomplish with just a little bit of creativity.

Blade allows you to summon your weapon of choice from thin air. That's it. (Still can be fun with creativity, but that's anything really.)

[TyGuy]

As the title says. If we nerf Hex Warrior to only grant proficiencies, and make pact of the blade offer Cha to attacks with the pact weapon, how would the different subclasses be impacted?

Obviously, the hexblade itself becomes a less compelling 1-level dip, and is weaker at levels one and two, but plays the same from level 3 onward.

But how are the other patrons impacted? Do any of them in particular become more attractive martials?

I duplicated hex warrior as an invocation that requires pact of the blade. Yeah, another invocation tax, but I feel like it's balanced.

[Eldariel]

Yes I know, but if your concept is something like the stereotypical GWM pamlock its just a bit weird to have to use a rapier for 2 lvls. Its just clumsy design who’s main purpose is to remove the dip problem, which can be dealt with in other ways (like simply saying no). I mean a hexblade really is probably bonding with the same weapon type that his patron is. So is the patron a rapier that mutates into a Halberd?

Also for a variant human build, it would preclude them from most benefits of Pole arm mastery or GWM until 3.

More an issue with subclass only coming on level 3 in the first place. This equally applies to Swords & Valor Bards, Bladesinger, Battlesmith, any subclasses that grant proficiencies or stat boosts really. Why should Pact of the Blade be exempted? Fix that problem separately. There are simple solutions:

Solution 1: Start on level 3. This deals with multiclass issues.
Solution 2: Rework subclasses to start from level 1, though this will not address the dip.


I'm confused. Hexblades do not get Magic Missle or Scorching Ray at any level. Fiend Warlocks or Efreeti genie Warlocks can get Scorching Ray at 3rd. Only a Tome Warlock can get Magic Missle at 3rd with Book of Ancient Secrets invocation.

Those are interesting in multiclass sense.

[Khrysaes]

I would also be interesting in turning the Thirsting blade invocation from "extra attack" to the same as bladesinger "Extra attack OR attack + cantrip"

[Khrysaes]

I'm confused. Hexblades do not get Magic Missle or Scorching Ray at any level. Fiend Warlocks or Efreeti genie Warlocks can get Scorching Ray at 3rd. Only a Tome Warlock can get Magic Missle at 3rd with Book of Ancient Secrets invocation.

I Don't think Book of Ancient Secrets would give Magic Missile since it is not a ritual.

[Pildion]

I duplicated hex warrior as an invocation that requires pact of the blade. Yeah, another invocation tax, but I feel like it's balanced.

This is a substantial nerf, moving Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade is one thing, then making it also cost one of your Invocations is too much. Your very limited to how many Invocations you get as it is, and Blade already has to use some of them to just keep up with what even Valor Bards get for free.

[da newt]

I think a more simple solution is to ban 1 lvl hexblade dips at your table. This is the real issue, right? There is nothing unbalanced about a warlock getting CHA attacks at lvl 1 - the issue is hexblade dips for other classes, right? The solution should address the issue directly.


Why would a Hexblade without CHA attacks choose to be a melee combatant at lvls 1 & 2 when they could very easily and safely spam EB from a distance? Or do your PC's never adjust their combat tactics as they level up and learn new things?

[Eldariel]

I think a more simple solution is to ban 1 lvl hexblade dips at your table. This is the real issue, right? There is nothing unbalanced about a warlock getting CHA attacks at lvl 1 - the issue is hexblade dips for other classes, right? The solution should address the issue directly.


Why would a Hexblade without CHA attacks choose to be a melee combatant at lvls 1 & 2 when they could very easily and safely spam EB from a distance? Or do your PC's never adjust their combat tactics as they level up and learn new things?

The main issue is that Pact of the Blade pretty much necessites Hexblade, which loses a lot of customisation. PotB should be fine regardless of patron.

[Sception]

Hexblade becomes less of a dip problem, but still is a balance problem for actual warlocks, where the proficiencies are by far the strongest thing. Move ALL of hex warrior to pact of the blade, and you'll get better results. Hex pact doesn't need 2 level 1 features. Other pacts don't get that, and the curse is already good.

[TyGuy]

This is a substantial nerf, moving Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade is one thing, then making it also cost one of your Invocations is too much. Your very limited to how many Invocations you get as it is, and Blade already has to use some of them to just keep up with what even Valor Bards get for free.

It can't be a nerf as it has removed/reduced nothing and only added an option for non hexblade warlocks. I didn't say I removed hex warrior, I said I duplicated it and made it available for other warlock patrons.
I admit it's another "invocation tax" for blade, but I don't want to make baseline blade add so much more than chain or tomb. I also buffed eldritch adept to 2 Invocations, so bladelocks of all stripes have an avenue to take the pressure off.

[Evaar]

I admit it's another "invocation tax" for blade, but I don't want to make baseline blade add so much more than chain or tomb.

It wouldn't be. You're underestimating the baseline value of Tome and Chain pacts.

And while the Tome and Chain specific invocations are extra bonuses gained on top of a well-performing chassis, the Blade specific invocations more often tend to be requirements to bring the base chassis up to a functional level. What you're doing here is adding another tax on top of an already heavily taxed feature.

[animorte]

I would also be interesting in turning the Thirsting blade invocation from "extra attack" to the same as bladesinger "Extra attack OR attack + cantrip"

I like this. Could definitely imagine using Grasp of Hadar to pull enemy away from nearby ally then using follow up attack as they arrive next to you.

This can also be accomplished with Eldritch Knight's level 7 War Magic that does the same thing, except with Lightning Lure cantrip (or possibly Thorn Whip) both of which require a save though, where Eldritch Blast + GoH is automatic (edit: provided your attack roll succeeds).

[animorte]

It wouldn't be. You're underestimating the baseline value of Tome and Chain pacts.

And while the Tome and Chain specific invocations are extra bonuses gained on top of a well-performing chassis, the Blade specific invocations more often tend to be requirements to bring the base chassis up to a functional level. What you're doing here is adding another tax on top of an already heavily taxed feature.

I agree with this 100%.

Tome and Chain already provide so much extra utility AND damage while the only way you're getting either of these from Blade is actually by performing a ritual to change the form of pact weapon (say from shortsword to greatsword for more damage). I genuinely appreciate being able to dismiss it and summon it as an action, but only really useful when all your stuff is taken away, during which you have most of your spells no matter what pact.
- Of course if you don't have your Tome with you for any reason, it's spells are useless until you perform the 1 hour ritual to replace it. Now, that's balance.

Meanwhile, the Chain is just too good to be true. You can dismiss it to and summon it from thin air same as Blade. Except this particular fellow can scout for you by shapechanging, invisibility, telepathic communication; also able to completely replicate anything Mage Hand or Unseen Servant could do, AND deal damage (easily more than the pact blade). And with only ONE invocation (investment of the chain master) this pact is just about as good as some of the patrons.

If you can see that and then tell me the Blade isn't morbidly underpowered by itself, I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Edit: Other note - I legitimately did a full build with invocations and ability scores focusing strictly on buffing Pact of the Blade (without Hexblade)... Eldritch Blast still did about the same amount of damage.

[TyGuy]

It wouldn't be. You're underestimating the baseline value of Tome and Chain pacts.

And while the Tome and Chain specific invocations are extra bonuses gained on top of a well-performing chassis, the Blade specific invocations more often tend to be requirements to bring the base chassis up to a functional level. What you're doing here is adding another tax on top of an already heavily taxed feature.

I'm not underestimating the value of three cantrips. Incorporating medium armor and shield into baseline blade would put it well ahead.

Bladelock is viable enough without tacking eldritch smite, improved pact weapon, maddening hex, and relentless hex on top of thirsting blade. So blade has a must-have attack invocation, so do the other pacts.

[H_H_F_F]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

[sithlordnergal]

Honestly, all it would do is make Bladepact viable for all Warlock Pacts instead of just the Hexblade. I remember pre-Hexblade Bladepacts, it was one of the worst Pact Boons for a reason. That said, I'd also make one other change: Just give the base Warlock class access to Medium Armor and Shields.

Now, this does effectively remove the need for Hex Warrior, but at the same time they still get Hexblade's Curse. Which is on par with Fey Presence, Dark One's Own Blessing, Tentacle of the Deep, and Healing Light, so losing Hex Warrior doesn't really nerf Hexblade that much. Its not like they'd lose out on Medium Armor, and by taking Pact of the Blade they end up with everything they normally get. Only now you can make a Fiend Blade Pact Warlock and have it be just as effective as a Hexblade.

[animorte]

Honestly, all it would do is make Bladepact viable for all Warlock Pacts instead of just the Hexblade. I remember pre-Hexblade Bladepacts, it was one of the worst Pact Boons for a reason. That said, I'd also make one other change: Just give the base Warlock class access to Medium Armor and Shields.

Now, this does effectively remove the need for Hex Warrior, but at the same time they still get Hexblade's Curse. Which is on par with Fey Presence, Dark One's Own Blessing, Tentacle of the Deep, and Healing Light, so losing Hex Warrior doesn't really nerf Hexblade that much. Its not like they'd lose out on Medium Armor, and by taking Pact of the Blade they end up with everything they normally get. Only now you can make a Fiend Blade Pact Warlock and have it be just as effective as a Hexblade.

Honestly, I'd just be happy with a shield! ...and the already talked about Cha.

[Frogreaver]

I agree with this 100%.

Tome and Chain already provide so much extra utility AND damage while the only way you're getting either of these from Blade is actually by performing a ritual to change the form of pact weapon (say from shortsword to greatsword for more damage). I genuinely appreciate being able to dismiss it and summon it as an action, but only really useful when all your stuff is taken away, during which you have most of your spells no matter what pact.
- Of course if you don't have your Tome with you for any reason, it's spells are useless until you perform the 1 hour ritual to replace it. Now, that's balance.

Meanwhile, the Chain is just too good to be true. You can dismiss it to and summon it from thin air same as Blade. Except this particular fellow can scout for you by shapechanging, invisibility, telepathic communication; also able to completely replicate anything Mage Hand or Unseen Servant could do, AND deal damage (easily more than the pact blade). And with only ONE invocation (investment of the chain master) this pact is just about as good as some of the patrons.

If you can see that and then tell me the Blade isn't morbidly underpowered by itself, I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Edit: Other note - I legitimately did a full build with invocations and ability scores focusing strictly on buffing Pact of the Blade (without Hexblade)... Eldritch Blast still did about the same amount of damage.

I think you underestimate the power of a well built pact of the blade hexblade.

Consider this level 12 Warlock
Half Elf (17 charisma start) + Polearm Master + Elven Accuracy (+1 cha) + resilient con (don't want to lose concentration)


Halbred + Spirit Shroud + Improved Pact Weapon + Lifedrinker + Thirsting Blade = +9 attack, 1d10+4+4+1+2d8 = 23.5 (avg damage). 2x. Bonus action attack of 1d4+4+4+1+2d8 = 20.5 (avg damage).

Total Damage = 67.5 @ +9 attack
Eldritch Blast + Hex = 42 @ +9 attack

That's a huge difference. And it only gets worse as GWM is added along with foresight.

I also think you overestimate chain pact. A familiar on it's own is amazing. More than 1 familiar isn't that useful though. Chain pact improves a familiar. However, the gap between a regular familiars capabilities and a chain pacts isn't large enough to make it 'too good to be true' as you said in your post above.

[animorte]

I think you underestimate the power of a well built pact of the blade hexblade.

Incorrect.

The entire point I was making is that WITHOUT Hexblade (or any patron being taken into account), there is virtually no reason to have pact of the blade (as it stands alone) when compared to the other pacts.


I also think you overestimate chain pact. A familiar on it's own is amazing. More than 1 familiar isn't that useful though. Chain pact improves a familiar. However, the gap between a regular familiars capabilities and a chain pacts isn't large enough to make it 'too good to be true' as you said in your post above.

More than 1? I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm referring to the addition of the specific Invocation: Investment of the Chain Master, which is a really good boost to the familiar.

Otherwise, you have a good point. It is grounded in a bit of personal bias and experiences.

[Frogreaver]

Incorrect.

The entire point I was making is that WITHOUT Hexblade (or any patron being taken into account), there is virtually no reason to have pact of the blade (as it stands alone) when compared to the other pacts.

No feature is an island. You've got to look at what is overall possible with that feature and not the feature in isolation.

[animorte]

No feature is an island. You've got to look at what is overall possible with that feature and not the feature in isolation.

You are correct. That's what I was doing with the other features to prove a point.

It's just nice to think about a greater balance between the pacts so your pact of the blade Warlock can feel useful without being forced into Hexblade patron.