Laying the groundwork for a Slayer class

[Greywander]

My witch class is basically done (at least, the first complete draft is), and I've been inspired to start working on a new concept: the slayer.

I see the slayer as kind of an eclectic mix of all the other martial classes, a pure martial (so no spells) with a good balance of offense and defense. Not really a tank or support character, just focuses on killing baddies as quickly as possible while not dying.

I'm planning on doing three subclasses: The Demon Slayer and Goblin Slayer are the obvious ones, drawing on the mythos of Doom and Goblin Slayer. The other subclass will be the Dragon Slayer, a classic archetype. These aren't meant to lock you into fighting particular types of enemies, rather they're meant to give you a set of tools that make you especially good at dealing with particular types of enemies but can also be good for dealing with similar types of enemies.

Just as an example, the Dragon Slayer might get a special attack that can knock a flying creature out of the air (think Hawkeye Gouge from Dark Souls 1). This doesn't just work on dragons; it will work on any flying creature. A lot of the subclass features will be similar, applying to a broader group of creatures that happens to include the one specific creature that slayer is specialized in taking down.

Now, I can steal features from various martial classes and Frankenstein them together to create a new class, but I do want to have an original core mechanic for the slayer. What I'm think are "frenzy points". Basically, think ki points, but you have a much smaller pool of them (e.g. equal to prof. bonus), but you have a few methods of generating them during combat. For example, each time you reduce an enemy to 0 HP you'll gain a frenzy point. This works well for the Goblin Slayer, who specializes in dealing with hordes of weaker enemies, so they'll be frequently dropping enemies to 0 HP. However, this won't help nearly as much if you're facing an adult red dragon or a balor. Some other ideas are: gaining a point when you score a critical hit, or gaining a point when you pass a saving throw. I'd like to have ways to reliably generate points during combat, not necessarily every round, but every 2 rounds or so.

As for how these frenzy points are used, I have a few ideas. One is that you can spend a point to make one additional attack as part of the Attack action. The Goblin Slayer might get a feature that allows them to use this more than once, making potentially infinite attacks so long as they don't miss and kill the enemy in one hit (so that each frenzy point spent gains you another). Another is to gain temp HP equal to your slayer level, kind of like how glory kills drop health in Doom (but temp HP to avoid the bag of rats exploit). Or maybe you can reduce damage taken by spending a point. Or increase damage dealt, like a smite.

Another idea I'm considering is granting the player a bonus for simply spending a frenzy point. For example, to kind of mimic Rage, spending a frenzy point might give you resistance to BPS damage until the start of your next turn.

Anyway, I'm literally just starting the class write up, so I'm fishing for foundational ideas that will likely inform the rest of the class design. The frenzy point system seems like the most important aspect of this, and everything else will be built around it.

[MachineWraith]

This is a completely different direction than your take on frenzy points, but it just popped into my head. What if you start each combat with zero frenzy points, but you gain them cumulatively every round you don't kill something? Like, first round none, second round 1, third round 2. And then reset on kill. You could have abilities that cost more than one point so that as the fight goes on you get stronger.

[Greywander]

That's an interesting idea, and would make sense when facing a single strong foe, like a dragon, but falls apart when facing hordes of weaker enemies like goblins. Considering that both Dragon Slayer and Goblin Slayer are subclasses for this class, I'd want a system that works for either one, though I can certainly see each subclass getting their own way of regaining frenzy points.

Incidentally, I got to work and wrote up a large portion of the class already, including most of the subclasses. I already posted a link to it in another thread, so I'll go ahead and drop it here as well. Do keep in mind that it's still very much a WIP.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CuLTlDGicypXOmUUZxvKxszYcwXnS2AjaxbedcoPeIk/edit?usp=sharing

[Kane0]

Or the base class has one way of building points and each subclass provides an alternative way, like how some Rogue subclasses provide alternative ways to activate sneak attack.

[MachineWraith]

That's a cool idea. Maybe the Goblin Slayer subclass gains frenzy when they get kills and are otherwise limited to gaining it on crit or whatever, while the Dragon Slayer goes the route I proposed?

[jdizzlean]

the mod life crisis: Thread moved to homebrew from 5e.

[Kane0]

Frenzy: I don't think Rip and Tear will be used nearly as much as Frenzied Strikes. Likewise I don't think Until it is Done will see much use with Too Angry to Die there.
Restoring a point after 1 minute feels off, it sounds like you wanted to put in Rest but also have them available every fight.

Even Naked: I think i'd prefer this to be Fighting Style. Is being able to fight unarmed/unarmored supposed to be a historic slayer thing?

Brutal Critical: Its nice it comes with improved critical, but I don't think it should take up the space of three features. It's an issue i've taken with Brutal Critical since the start, it should have been a single one and done or self-scaling feature rather than eating up multiple levels of design space. Like + Slayer level to crit damage, leaves the next two stages open for other, more interesting things.

Hunter's Awareness: Something strikes me as off with the static +5 to Init. I'm tempted to suggest +Wis or advantage instead, but thats minor

Iron Will: Name double-up, the hardest part of homebrewing.

The only thing they fear is you: Being able to instantly break the fear by moving over 30' away is probably too easy, especially since the condition doesn't stop you from moving away at all.

Aerial Warrior: Jump distance is still limited by movement speed, and jump height is significantly shorter than jump length. I'm not sure this will help that much unless flying enemies stay below 40-80 feet elevation.

Goblin Slayer could also be potentially pretty strong comparaively, just by virtue of sheer damage output versus the other two subclasses more focused on defense.

[Old Harry MTX]

This is a completely different direction than your take on frenzy points, but it just popped into my head. What if you start each combat with zero frenzy points, but you gain them cumulatively every round you don't kill something? Like, first round none, second round 1, third round 2. And then reset on kill. You could have abilities that cost more than one point so that as the fight goes on you get stronger.

I had a similar idea for the subclass of a base class I made for one of the last contests, if you want take a look at the Martial lineage here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ppAH-NZqeC_2CCH4wanypktS1YVUE9ZFcxkvqJ5jfS0/edit?usp=drivesdk)!

[Spiritchaser]

If I had to pick one “slayer” target, it wouldn’t be a monster type.

I’d pick a mage slayer. Yeah yeah, name taken… whatever.

Something that could potentially mitigate repeated magical attacks and controls (pretenders with a certain one off ability are a joke) manage to match or negate the magical mobility most such foes have, and then apply non magical debuffs or controls of their own to the most powerful ability in the game: spell casting.

Not saying it would be easy, or even possible to design, but man I’d love to see it.

[Greywander]

Let me preface this by saying I've had a very long day, so I won't be making any changes tonight. Probably tomorrow.


Or the base class has one way of building points and each subclass provides an alternative way, like how some Rogue subclasses provide alternative ways to activate sneak attack.

That's a cool idea. Maybe the Goblin Slayer subclass gains frenzy when they get kills and are otherwise limited to gaining it on crit or whatever, while the Dragon Slayer goes the route I proposed?
I like the idea of each subclass getting a unique way to generate frenzy points, but I think it makes a lot of sense for the base class to award them on kills. We could also just go ahead and bake all the methods into the base class, as this will help with versatility instead of making them hyper-specialized.

Awarding on kills is the one that makes the most sense, but a lot of monsters don't go down quickly, so it obviously can't be the only method. Awarding on crits, particularly with a boost to crit rate, is a nice steady way to generate points that doesn't care about what you're fighting. It's rare enough that it can help fill in the gaps when the other methods of generating points are coming up dry. Awarding points on a passed save is a bit more odd, but my logic was that this gives you another way to generate points while fighting something like a dragon. It would also apply to mages, too, as well as a number of other monsters. Thing is, most creatures that use saves are closer to mages, i.e. glass cannons that go down quickly. Dragons are kind of an outlier.

So I feel like we're just missing one more possible method of generating points that would apply to big brutes who are super tough but don't use magic or save effects. The only thing I can think of is maybe triggering off of damage? Maybe if you take a hit that exceeds X damage, you would gain a point. But the exact amount would be a bit of a problem. If it's too high, then you can't really use it effectively until late game, and if it's too low then it becomes trivial late game. If it scales as you level, then you run into a situation where a hit that would have given you a point before now does not, and it strikes me as bad design to punish a player for doing what they're supposed to (leveling up, in this case).


Frenzy: I don't think Rip and Tear will be used nearly as much as Frenzied Strikes.
Rip and Tear was in a really odd place. You could spend a point to turn a normal hit into a crit, but then you regain a point because you crit. It just seems awkward. I think I'm going to replace it with an effect that adds, say, a d10 or d12 to your damage roll. And I specifically want to do this so that you can use that die for Brutal Critical. So let's say you throw a dart at someone and crit, normally Brutal Critical would use a d4 for the additional damage. But by using Rip and Tear to add a d10, you could have Brutal Critical add more d10s instead of d4s. It's still better to use a weapon with a high damage die (since you might not have a frenzy point to use Rip and Tear), but it narrows the gap at least.


Likewise I don't think Until it is Done will see much use with Too Angry to Die there.
I disagree, though I may need to tweak the numbers to balance it right. Too Angry to Die initially uses a reaction, so all it takes is two enemies double-teaming you to make you stay down. After 14th level, it no longer uses a reaction, but you're still limited to once per turn, and by that level most enemies have some form of multiattack. It's a powerful feature, but it's not exactly difficult to overcome it. Not reaching 0 HP in the first place is preferable.

Until it is Done was meant to be a type of self-heal, but it uses temp HP so you can't abuse it outside of combat. If you can somehow generate a frenzy point every round, or the combat is short enough that it ends before you run out, you can give yourself temp HP every round to absorb a good chunk of any damage you take. Also, don't forget that spending a frenzy point gives you BPS resistance until the end of your next turn, essentially doubling the effect of those temp HP against a lot of monsters. On a good day, you could avoid taking any damage altogether.

Part of the slayer's design is to be self-sufficient: they can fight effectively by themselves, if they have to. If you have a party healer, then Until it is Done might not be as important, but if you find yourself alone then it becomes crucial to keeping yourself on your feet.


Restoring a point after 1 minute feels off, it sounds like you wanted to put in Rest but also have them available every fight.
It actually restores all frenzy points, not just one. And yeah, the intention was to start every combat with full frenzy points. I could have had you start combat with no frenzy points, and build them up during combat, but the way combat is in 5e it would probably be over before you'd gotten more than a few points. Also, this would likely have just led to a bag of rats exploit, since killing things gives you frenzy points.

I'm considering an alternative, though. Spend an action to regain a frenzy point, and optionally make one weapon attack as a bonus action (likely not until after 5th level). This allows you to fight defensively, insuring you can gain, and spend, a frenzy point every round to maintain the BPS resistance. If you can regain a point as an action, then the 1 minute of rest thing would no longer be needed.


Even Naked: I think i'd prefer this to be Fighting Style. Is being able to fight unarmed/unarmored supposed to be a historic slayer thing?
Doomguy regularly rips demons apart with his bare hands, and in Doom 2016 you literally wake up naked and have to fight off some zombies. I think it largely comes down to just being such a badass that you can still fight competently, even when caught unarmed and unarmored. That said, I'm considering nerfing the unarmed damage to 1d6 and the AC to 13 + DEX mod, so that actual weapons and armor are still better, you're just not completely defenseless without them. But I could see someone wanting to specifically play an unarmed, unarmored slayer.

A fighting style would also be a suitable alternative. Even Naked was meant to be more of a ribbon than anything, but I'll consider swapping it for a fighting style.


Brutal Critical: Its nice it comes with improved critical, but I don't think it should take up the space of three features. It's an issue i've taken with Brutal Critical since the start, it should have been a single one and done or self-scaling feature rather than eating up multiple levels of design space. Like + Slayer level to crit damage, leaves the next two stages open for other, more interesting things.
I agree, I just know I have a tendency to overtune my homebrew, and so I copied it as it was for the barbarian. And actually, I think the barbarian's version only applies to melee crits, whereas I've expanded it to include any weapon attack crit (important for the Dragon Slayer, who can use ranged crits to knock flying enemies out of the sky). I think I'm going to move Superior Critical from the Dragon Slayer to the base class, but I wasn't sure where to put it. Giving it at the same level as one of the Brutal Critical levels makes a lot of sense.


Hunter's Awareness: Something strikes me as off with the static +5 to Init. I'm tempted to suggest +Wis or advantage instead, but thats minor
Well, what is the slayer's secondary stat? Currently, they don't use mental stats for anything, similar to most non-casting martials. If anything DEX is their secondary stat, after STR. But you already add DEX to initiative rolls, and it doesn't make much sense to add STR or CON to initiative. Basically, I made it a flat +5 because if I'd used any mental stat then it would probably only give you a +1 or +2 at most. Not very exciting.


Iron Will: Name double-up, the hardest part of homebrewing.
Is it? Are you sure you're not thinking of Iron Mind?


The only thing they fear is you: Being able to instantly break the fear by moving over 30' away is probably too easy, especially since the condition doesn't stop you from moving away at all.
But they become feared again if they move back within the 30 foot radius. Breaking the fear by moving away is not passing a save, so they don't get the 24 hour immunity.

That said, I was grasping at straws for this feature, so I think I'm going to redo it completely. Now I'm thinking that I'll make it just straight up generate one frenzy point at the start of your turn. That alone is a huge power boost, practically guarantying you can have BPS resistance at all times. In fact, I think I'll go ahead and codify that into the feature, and any other feature that gives you a passive bonus after spending a frenzy point (e.g. fire immunity for the Demon Slayer) will also become permanent. I think it's a suitable base class capstone, on par with the likes of Spell Mastery.


Aerial Warrior: Jump distance is still limited by movement speed, and jump height is significantly shorter than jump length. I'm not sure this will help that much unless flying enemies stay below 40-80 feet elevation.
The dragon's got to get close enough use its breath weapon. But you might be right. Initially I just wanted to buff jump height, but in the end it seemed like it was easier just to multiply all jump distance by a certain amount. What I could probably do is something like setting high jump height equal to e.g. 10 * prof bonus, and it can ignore move speed restrictions (you can jump the full 60 feet, regardless of your move speed). You could, of course, use a Dash action to get more movement speed, so maybe it's not necessary to ignore move speed restrictions on jumping. 60 feet might not be enough, but I'm not sure how high I want to push it before it just gets ridiculous. With 20 * prof bonus, you've had a 40 foot high jump immediately. I guess it fits the aesthetic of a Final Fantasy Dragoon, though.


Goblin Slayer could also be potentially pretty strong comparaively, just by virtue of sheer damage output versus the other two subclasses more focused on defense.
Maybe, but Whirlwind will quickly eat up all your frenzy points, after which it becomes basically useless. It only really works if you can get a lot of frenzy points fast, such as when you can kill enemies in one hit. Horde Counter I expect to be quite strong, but it is a 15th level feature, it's supposed to be strong. And it's really only as strong as the number of enemies missing you. A dragon isn't likely to miss, and even if they do, you'll only get one opportunity attack. Still, I do like how each subclass has a wide range of applicability instead of being narrowly focused on its namesake. It feels like what a "Favored Foe" feature should have looked like.


If I had to pick one “slayer” target, it wouldn’t be a monster type.

I’d pick a mage slayer. Yeah yeah, name taken… whatever.

Something that could potentially mitigate repeated magical attacks and controls (pretenders with a certain one off ability are a joke) manage to match or negate the magical mobility most such foes have, and then apply non magical debuffs or controls of their own to the most powerful ability in the game: spell casting.

Not saying it would be easy, or even possible to design, but man I’d love to see it.
Definitely a possibility for a future subclass. Would probably call it a Witch Slayer or something to differentiate it from the feat (ironic since I'm just finishing writing up a witch class). Hmm, what about an ability that let's you throw a grappling hook at them when they teleport, and it pulls you through with them, so you end up next to them after they teleport? Maybe a spiked chain instead of a grappling hook that causes 1 point of damage at the start of their turn so they have to make a concentration save. Probably as a type of ranged grapple or something. I might just go ahead and add this.

But not tonight. We'll see if I can get to it tomorrow. (Also, look up the Monster Slayer ranger, they have some good counters to magic users, might suit your needs.)

[Kane0]

I like the idea of each subclass getting a unique way to generate frenzy points, but I think it makes a lot of sense for the base class to award them on kills. We could also just go ahead and bake all the methods into the base class, as this will help with versatility instead of making them hyper-specialized.

Awarding on kills is the one that makes the most sense, but a lot of monsters don't go down quickly, so it obviously can't be the only method. Awarding on crits, particularly with a boost to crit rate, is a nice steady way to generate points that doesn't care about what you're fighting. It's rare enough that it can help fill in the gaps when the other methods of generating points are coming up dry. Awarding points on a passed save is a bit more odd, but my logic was that this gives you another way to generate points while fighting something like a dragon. It would also apply to mages, too, as well as a number of other monsters. Thing is, most creatures that use saves are closer to mages, i.e. glass cannons that go down quickly. Dragons are kind of an outlier.

So I feel like we're just missing one more possible method of generating points that would apply to big brutes who are super tough but don't use magic or save effects. The only thing I can think of is maybe triggering off of damage? Maybe if you take a hit that exceeds X damage, you would gain a point. But the exact amount would be a bit of a problem. If it's too high, then you can't really use it effectively until late game, and if it's too low then it becomes trivial late game. If it scales as you level, then you run into a situation where a hit that would have given you a point before now does not, and it strikes me as bad design to punish a player for doing what they're supposed to (leveling up, in this case).


Heres my suggestion:
Base class: Drop enemy to 0, make a Crit or spend your action for 1 (Basically mimics great weapon master and the third functions as the absolute emergency + between-fight option)
Dragon slayer: make a save (fear aura, breath weapon, dragons with spellcasting)
Demon slayer: take a crit (brutes tend to hit hard, and you have a feature to go to 1 instead of 0)
Goblin slayer: doesnt give extra way of getting them, instead lets you spend them faster with the multikill streak.

Edit: actually goblin slayer could do like a reverse of colossus slayer, dealing an extra die of damage or +prof damage to creatures that are at full hit points or over half hit points. That would go that much further to actually kill lower CR targets in one hit more reliably.

[Spiritchaser]

But not tonight. We'll see if I can get to it tomorrow. (Also, look up the Monster Slayer ranger, they have some good counters to magic users, might suit your needs.)

The problem with magic users nemesis is that it’s once per combat. I’ve seen this to be hopelessly outclasses by a carefully played BBEG. If they’re smart enough to play around counterspell (and let’s face it, this kind of foe is usually really smart) they’re smart enough to play around nemesis. Even if they’re not, it’s just one use. It’s not enough.

For a mage slayer (Witch slayer?) to work in practice it needs to offer a persistent threat or limitation to the opponents casting ability. Grapple silence builds can work, limits to vision can work a bit.

How much of a threat should be included in a subclass? Obviously not easy to balance.

I’ve played around with allowing the reaction attack from mage slayer (if successful) to force a concentration check to even cast the spell it is reacting to. Because of the disadvantage from mage slayer my first impressions were that while extremely situational, this was really really strong. Hasn’t come up much though.

Allowing a witch hunter a short ranged reaction ranged attack to force a similar check (without disadvantage) might be ok, or it might consume so much build strength for something that comes up only occasionally that the class isn’t versatile enough

Or it might combine with rogue sneak attack in a way that a MC is better at doing the job a witch slayer is specifically for than a single class witch slayer is…

[Kane0]

If you're making a mage/witch slayer you don't want abilities that target spellcasting, you want abilities that target magic. Monster statblocks that have and use spells are rare and getting rarer, compared to those that have abilities that have spell attack rolls and save DCs but aren't spells.

[Catullus64]

So... is it too late to suggest a Warhammer Troll Slayer subclass? Not only is it another prominent pop-culture archetype with "slayer" in the name, but it actually seems to fit the core mechanics of the class that you have outlined pretty well.

When a Dwarf incurs some grave dishonor or shame, he may choose to seek redemption by taking the Slayer's Oath. Renoucing home and clan, forswearing any armaments but his axes, a Slayer is committed to seeking an honorable death in combat against the fiercest foes he can find. He cannot simply stand still and let his foe finish him: the oath requires he do his utmost to triumph. Ironically, this often means that the most talented slayers find it hardest to succeed in their ultimate aim. Slayers are often titled according to the fiercest foe they have encountered, from Troll Slayer to Giant Slayer to Dragon Slayer to Daemon Slayer.

I may work on brewing up just such a subclass for your consideration, to pick ideas from as you like.

As for the class mechanics, the only one I have complaint against is Cold Fury. I don't like player immunities at any level, and 7th would be far too early even if I did.

[MrStabby]

You could tie regaining points to a particular save type. A mage slayer might be wisdom saves, a dragons slayer might be dex saves, a vampire slayer might be con saves. You could even give a bonus save proficiency as a class feature tied to this.

I like the idea of bonus to hit vs a size category - goblin slayer gets bonus vs small and tiny, dragon slayer vs large and bigger.

I also like the suggestion that the power builds up - it gives a little more leeway in balance. If the abilities are a bit on the powerful side, it doesn't matter quite so much if they end the fight as all the other players have been able to do their cool stuff as well. It isn't like you strip the fun from a fight with some overpowered abiliy that lands on round 1.

I think that a mechanic of studying your enemy might work - say using abonus action. If you are a mage slayer then maybe it boosts your spells, if a goblin slayer then maybe it boosts your oposed ability checks (to spot hidden goblins), if a dragon slayer it boosts your attack rolls to get past super high AC.



I am wondering if you are pure non-magic or open to some slayers being augmented with a bit of magic. A goblin slayer with a once per day fireball type ability (possibly using a different save) well certanily slay goblins (although you could fluff as an incendiary bomb), a dragon slayer with a one-turn elemental immunity (as a reaction) will dodge some nasty dragon damage?

[Greywander]

Heres my suggestion:
Base class: Drop enemy to 0, make a Crit or spend your action for 1 (Basically mimics great weapon master and the third functions as the absolute emergency + between-fight option)
Dragon slayer: make a save (fear aura, breath weapon, dragons with spellcasting)
Demon slayer: take a crit (brutes tend to hit hard, and you have a feature to go to 1 instead of 0)
Goblin slayer: doesnt give extra way of getting them, instead lets you spend them faster with the multikill streak.

Edit: actually goblin slayer could do like a reverse of colossus slayer, dealing an extra die of damage or +prof damage to creatures that are at full hit points or over half hit points. That would go that much further to actually kill lower CR targets in one hit more reliably.
Some good ideas. I like the idea of the Goblin Slayer getting bonus damage against targets at full HP, that would definitely help slot them into their niche a bit better. Gaining frenzy on being crit is one I hadn't thought of, though I don't think that applies to any particular kind of monster. It's not like fiends have a higher crit range, and you're actually more likely to eat a crit fighting a horde of goblins, just by the sure number of attacks you're taking.

I'm still inclined to bake all methods of generating frenzy points into the base class, not least because passing a save is something that would apply especially to a Witch Slayer, but also come up often for Dragon and Demon Slayers. But I do like the idea of making it easier for different subclasses to generate frenzy points by different methods, like the Goblin Slayer getting a damage bonus against creatures with full HP. And it looks like the Dragon Slayer will probably get a crit range boost as well, due to needing to crit to knock fliers out of the air, so that covers that. For the Witch Slayer, Magic Resistance is obvious.

I'm still not sure what to do for the Demon Slayer, as none of the methods so far really stick out as being pertinent to fiends, specifically. A lot of fiends are just brutes, but with a bunch of resistances/immunities. A lot of other fiends can cast spells or use other save effects, but that overlaps with the Witch Slayer (and somewhat with the Dragon Slayer re; breath weapons). Well, I suppose the Demon Slayer gets what is basically Improved Divine Smite, so that helps them kill fiends fasters, strong or weak. So that works.

I'm working on cleaning up some things and adding some of what was missing now. Probably won't finish tonight.

[Greywander]

I made a bunch of changes, too many to go over all of them, but I'll try to give the highlights. At this point, the class still feels overtuned, but at least this probably means we're just taking stuff away, and not adding anything new.

I added starting equipment and class skills. Those had just been using a default (I copy-pasted from a template document).

Subclass levels have been reworked. Previously, you got features at 3rd, 6th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. Now you get a minor feature at 3rd, a defining feature at 6th, a defensive feature at 9th, a damage boost at 11th, and a capstone at 15th.

The 18th level feature was reverted to The Only Thing They Fear is You, but completely reworked. Now each time you spend a frenzy point, you can choose an enemy to become frightened of you for one round, no save. Even creatures normally immune to fear can be affected, but they do get a save.

Doom Eternal is the new class capstone. You regain one frenzy point every round, and most features that previously triggered off of spending a frenzy point are now always on. For example, you now always have BPS resistance, instead of needing to spend a frenzy point for it.

Speaking of, Fast Movement has become Fast and Furious, and now only increases speed when you spend a frenzy point. Cold Fury now only grants fear and charm immunity when you spend a frenzy point. Both become permanent at 20.

An entirely new feature has been added: the Slayer's Snare. This is a special weapon you can craft that has a long reach (from 10 feet at 3rd level up to 30 feet at 17th level), and on a hit the barbed tip sticks in the target, tethering them to you. It inhibits movement, both for you and for the target, but you can unclip the snare from yourself as an object interaction in case you need to get free. You can rip out the snare as a bonus action (making it easy to move on once the target is dead), or another creature, including the ensnared creature, can rip it out as an action. Ripping out the snare deals damage, which increases at higher levels, from 3d4 to 9d4.

A lot of subclasses have had major or minor reworking:

The Demon Slayer has new traits that can strip away the resistances of an ensnared creature, or prevent them from teleporting or summoning allies. The Demon Slayer also has a variant called a Planes Slayer, allowing some minor tweaks. For example, if you hunt aberrations instead of fiends, you can get psychic resistance/immunity instead of fire, or change your smite damage to force.

The Dragon Slayer mostly just had some of its features shuffled around. They also gained a damage boosts that adds their proficiency bonus to a damage roll once per turn. Aerial Warrior was also renamed to Rising Force. Mostly just because I think it sounds cooler. Also, Morrowind had Potions of Rising Force that give a levitation effect, which is probably one of the weirdest and most obscure references this class has. The Dragon Slayer also has a variant: the Titan Slayer, which gets Uncanny Dodge instead of resistance to common energy types for breath weapons.

The Goblin Slayer had most of its features shuffled around, though some features may be new depending on when you last checked. They now get Whirlwind at 6th level, but each frenzied strike has to be made against a different target. Numb Your Senses now gives +1 AC when you spend a frenzy point, becomes permanent at 20th level. As their damage boost, they deal an extra 1d10 damage to creatures at full HP, allowing them to more easily kill weak enemies in one blow.

The Witch Slayer is all new. They're mostly focused on using their slayer's snare to prevent teleportation or invisibility, or to force concentration saves.

I think what I need now is mostly just help tuning things down and balancing the subclasses against one another.

[Yakk]

I'd make Frenzy points Frenzy dice. Because dice are fun. And you can start the dice small and make them bigger.

I'd move your Subclass to level 1. So you can have a narrative split there. And you can move a lot of Frenzy dice recovery to your subclass(!), as well as armor proficiency.

So one Slayer subclass can be unarmored, another heavy-armor focused. One can get Frenzy die back from dropping foes (gain a die when you reduce a creature to 0 HP), another from failing to drop a foe on their turn (gain a die at the end of your turn if you hit a creature and didn't reduce a creature to 0 HP).

2 levels for 19-20 crit range is the cheapest way to get it in 5e at this point. MC issues.

Brutal Critical is a pretty bad ability.

Each frenzy is worth 5.5 damage (tear), or at 50% hit rate 6 (greatsword+5 strength) via extra attack. On a crit the tear is worth 11 (but limited to 0.2-0.4 uses/turn), and extra per-tap damage makes the extra attack worth a bit more.

Brutal Critical with a d12 weapon is 0.65 damage per swing. Even if you spam extra attack, this is 1.95 damage.

[Greywander]

I'd make Frenzy points Frenzy dice. Because dice are fun. And you can start the dice small and make them bigger.
Hmm. For this to make sense, you should actually be rolling the die when you spend it. I don't think this will work for Frenzied Strikes, since it's just an additional attack. It would work easily for Rip and Tear, where the die is the amount of bonus damage. Indomitable could be reworked to add the die roll to the saving throw. Until it is Done could add the die roll to your temp HP gained. Too Angry to Die... either you would spend the die without rolling it, or you might actually roll it and get real healing equal to that amount.

So yeah, I think that could work. I'll give it some thought, and weigh the pros and cons of using points vs. dice. I don't think one is always better, it depends on what you're trying to do with it. For example, currently Until it is Done always gives the same amount of temp HP, making it dependable. So do we want something dependable, or something strong but unreliable?


I'd move your Subclass to level 1. So you can have a narrative split there. And you can move a lot of Frenzy dice recovery to your subclass(!), as well as armor proficiency.
I'm not sure any martial classes get their subclass at 1st level, though that's not necessarily a reason not to do it in homebrew. Mostly, I just don't see a point to doing so. I think it should be fine to have all subclasses share the same set of methods for recharging frenzy points. The idea of each subclass having a unique method is interesting, but (a) trying to give each subclass a unique and interesting way to generate frenzy points, and (b) trying to make sure that every subclass can generate frenzy points somewhat reliably, are both difficult things to do. It would be very easy for one subclass to be able to easily generate lots of frenzy points, while another can't, which would greatly affect the subclass balance. It would also vary depending on what types of monsters you were facing, meaning that bringing the wrong kind of slayer to a campaign could really shoot you in the foot. A least this way a Dragon Slayer can still get by reasonably well in a campaign with no dragons.


So one Slayer subclass can be unarmored, another heavy-armor focused.
I don't get why some people think the same class can't get both an unarmored bonus and heavy armor. It's not like you can use them both at the same time. It's true it adds some versatility, and yet despite that monks are still considered to be on the weak side. If the players were regularly ending up without weapons or armor, monks would be more highly valued, but in the end it's basically a ribbon benefit. You're either going to go for heavy armor, or you're going to go unarmored, and it won't end up mattering that the other option exists. I like the idea of giving the player the choice of which way to go.


2 levels for 19-20 crit range is the cheapest way to get it in 5e at this point. MC issues.
Honestly, I'm not worried about this, because...


Brutal Critical is a pretty bad ability.
Truth. It looks nice on paper, but anyone still recommending a crit fishing build hasn't done the math. Crit fishing is baaad. How bad? Let me crunch some numbers to give you an idea.

Let's say that an ability score modifier is roughly equivalent to a die. Thus, a normal weapon attack deals about two dice of damage. A crit will double the dice, but not the modifier, dealing three dice of damage. That's a 50% increase. Sounds pretty nice, right? But it only has a 5% chance to happen on a typical character. This means that if a character was initially unable to crit at all, but gained the ability to crit on a 20, that would represent a 50% * 5% = 2.5% increase in damage. Yeah, 2.5%.

So how does Brutal Critical affect this? Well, over its three iterations, each one gives an additional die of damage on a crit, totally at six dice of damage. That makes a crit a 200% increase in damage for that one attack. But again, only with a 5% chance to happen. This means going from no crits to critting on a 20 gives a 200% * 5% = 10% damage increase. That's quite a bit better, but still very lackluster.

Now, what if we add Improved/Superior Critical to the mix? Normally, you wouldn't get these together since they're from two different classes, but I decided to give the Slayer both. With Superior Critical, your crit chance goes up to 15%. So now going from no crits to critting gives a 200% * 15% = 30% damage increase. Now we're getting somewhere.

But that's starting from the premise that we can't crit initially. We can. Meaning this isn't actually a 30% damage increase, but something less than that. Doing some quick and dirty math, I think it's actually about 27% more damage than a typical character. Which is actually better than I expected, but...

How does this compare to other classes? Most martial classes get Extra Attack at 5th level, which is a 100% damage increase (more or less). Most classes get another damage boost at 11th level. Fighters get a third attack, which is a 50% increase over two attacks. Paladins get Improved Divine Smite, which adds another damage die to each attack, making it also a 50% increase. So Brutal + Superior Critical is only giving about half the benefit, except spread across five levels and doesn't fully come online until 17th level.

So yeah, crit fishing is bad, Brutal Critical is bad, and Superior Critical is bad. Brutal + Superior Critical is... okay, but still falls way behind, and is just too little too late. The real DPR increase for barbarians comes from their Rage bonus; likewise, Champion fighters get most their damage from their additional attacks. Heck, the Dueling style probably gives a better DPR increase than Superior Critical. If there's someone who could make crit fishing viable, it would be the Slayer, but I really don't know that it would be any stronger than other options.


Each frenzy is worth 5.5 damage (tear), or at 50% hit rate 6 (greatsword+5 strength) via extra attack. On a crit the tear is worth 11 (but limited to 0.2-0.4 uses/turn), and extra per-tap damage makes the extra attack worth a bit more.

Brutal Critical with a d12 weapon is 0.65 damage per swing. Even if you spam extra attack, this is 1.95 damage.
Yeah, and to be fair we shouldn't be discounting the effect that the slayer's frenzy features will have on DPR. To me, it seems generous to assume that we can use Frenzied Strikes or Rip and Tear every round, though at this point I have no idea how quickly frenzy points can be generated in practice. I have a strong feeling that the slayer will be largely about pacing: to get the most out of the slayer, you want to make sure you use at least one frenzy point each round, in order to get things like the BPS resistance, which means you need to gauge how long the combat will take and make sure you hold enough points in reserve.

So does each subclass really need a damage boost at 11? Actually, maybe not. And if they do, it certainly doesn't need to be as strong as what most other classes typically get.

The new Slayer's Snare could also be a big contributor to DPR. With two attacks per turn, you can throw two snares, then use a bonus action to rip out one of them. On subsequent turns, you can throw out another snare, then rip it out, while still making a normal weapon attack and keeping the target ensnared. 3d4 damage is 7.5 on average, and 9d4 is 22.5. Huh, maybe I need to adjust those numbers a bit. Mostly, I wanted the damage to disincentivize the ensnared creature from just pulling the snare out, but the damage might actually be high enough that you'd want to pull it out yourself.

[Greywander]

Okay, so with regards to DPR...

A generic barbarian, fighter, or paladin has about 20-21 DPR with a 65% hit rate at 11th level. With advantage, that increases to about 28-30. This is without fighting styles or subclasses or feats.
A generic monk has about 19 DPR normally, 26 with advantage, without spending ki. If using flurry, that increases to 26 and 35. So the monk falls behind without using ki, but jumps ahead when spending ki.
A generic slayer has about 17 DPR normally, 25 with advantage, without spending frenzy points. If using frenzied strike, that increases to 25 and 37.
If the slayer has all three Brutal Critical dice (17th+ level), the slayer's no-frenzy DPR jumps to 20 and 31, and with frenzy jumps to 30 and 46.
A generic barbarian at 20th level has a DPR of 27 and 35. A generic fighter has 28 and 39.

With this in mind, I don't know that the slayer is actually nearly as overtuned as I thought, in terms of damage at least. I excluded subclasses from the calculation, since we did the same for the other classes. I know a Battle Master can get quite a boost to damage from their maneuvers, so I'll just assume that compares roughly to the bonus the slayer gets from their subclasses.

Also, the reason why the DPR with advantage is so high is due to all the bonuses to crits. I foresee a lot of Elven Accuracy slayers. Dragon Slayers in particular, since you're encouraged to use ranged attacks to knock flying enemies out of the sky, and get advantage while climbing on a larger creature. So shoot from range with a longbow, or, if the dragon or other larger creature gets close enough, jump on them and stab away with a rapier.

I do still need to figure out how the Slayer's Snare might figure in to damage. You could easily make one attack with a snare every round, then rip it out as a BA for free extra damage. So that might need tweaking. The BA to rip it out was mostly just to make it easier to recover the snare after the enemy was dead; maybe it should only be a BA if the target is unable to move (e.g. dead, unconscious, paralyzed), and an action otherwise. Though I kind of like the idea of purposely ripping it out to cause more damage. So I think the damage just needs some tuning.

[Yakk]

Oh, you wouldn't keep leveling slayer. I mean, something like Bladesinger 6/Paladin 2/Slayer 2.

You have 7th level spellcasting slots, 19-20 crit range, and smite. Get advantage and elven accuracy, and your crit rate per swing can hit 27%; use that to put smites only on the swings that crit.

The other decent kind of crit fishing is a champion 5/rogue X; it only rivals the much easier "get a melee weapon cantrip" path however. (The trick is you can get your accuracy and crit chance high enough to hold off your sneak attack to wait for a crit each turn, and feed it 3 chances/turn).

Barbarian damage after level 5 doesn't "come from rage damage bonus", it just doesn't really exist. Barbarian damage is almost completely flat from 6 to 19 inclusive from barbarian features. Get a barbarian GWM and 20 strength and a greatsword, and they are doing 24 damage per swing (+7 per crit). Against 17 AC with +3 proficiency this is already 58% accuracy/10% crit for 29.2 DPR. +1 extra damage adds 1.2 DPR (4%), +[W] on a crit adds 1.6 DPR (5%). Which means you get 7.2 extra DPR from class features after level 5 (a grand total 25% increase from 14 levels, or 1.8% per level). Barbarian 20 in theory adds a bunch more, but only if you don't already have a belt of giant strength.

My point is, 19-20 crit range is useful in a few builds, and you made it cheaper than it was.