Non Magical Utility

[Blackhawk748]

Been thinking about this lately as I've been working on my E6 based system and Im trying to figure out how to give, mostly Martial classes, out of combat utility. In my system Rogues get Skill Tricks automatically and Rangers get the Animal Companion at level 1, but what do you give the Barb, Fighter and Pally?

Ok, maybe the Pally is fine cuz, yknow, spells and stuff, but what do you give the Barbarian and the Fighter and how do you give it to them? One idea I saw was having the Carrying Capacity increase on a curve instead of linearly, thus rewarding them for having high Strength by letting them move really big stuff and what not, but I don't feel like that's enough.

[rel]

How about the ability to always have the gear you need.

Fluff wise, your character is more prepared than Batman with a utility belt full of custom kit, stashes everywhere and superlative skills of improvisation and jury rigging.

Mechanically you're just creating items; You get a pool of GP that refreshes each day, and you can just add arbitrary equipment to your inventory using that resource.


Given the existing rogue and ranger options, I'd say 10GP / level of gear in potentia would be about right.

Maybe add the option to pull out something more expensive on occasion but actually have to pay for it.

And it might also be worth giving out free quick draw so fight guy can instantly start using that anti shark repellent bat spray that was totally in their pocket this whole time.

[Zombulian]

How about the ability to always have the gear you need.

Fluff wise, your character is more prepared than Batman with a utility belt full of custom kit, stashes everywhere and superlative skills of improvisation and jury rigging.

Mechanically you're just creating items; You get a pool of GP that refreshes each day, and you can just add arbitrary equipment to your inventory using that resource.


Given the existing rogue and ranger options, I'd say 10GP / level of gear in potentia would be about right.

Maybe add the option to pull out something more expensive on occasion but actually have to pay for it.

And it might also be worth giving out free quick draw so fight guy can instantly start using that anti shark repellent bat spray that was totally in their pocket this whole time.

Funnily enough, this was my exact thought. I was going to recommend that all mundane characters get the Wedded to History (Packrat) feat.

[MornShine]

There's a Pathfinder feat called Brilliant Planner (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/brilliant-planner/) which has most of what you're looking for.

Halflings (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Well-Prepared) and Pathfinder Chroniclers (https://pathfinder.d20srd.org/coreRulebook/prestigeClasses/pathfinderChronicler.html#deep-pockets) can do similar things.

Arbitrary Alchemy is fun, but usually extremely low-op (not useful past low levels) or extremely high-op (takes forever to trawl sourcebooks), especially in 3.5

[Mordante]

Maybe you could give martial classes bonuses on their social skills. Give a fighter bonuses on bluff, diplomacy, intimidate base on their level and strength. Give fighters limited or no dex penalty or skill penalties for wearing heavy armour since they are so used to wearing it all of the time.

Give classes with full BAB extra damage when they crit, or no need to roll to confirm crit.

Give martial classes with a con of 15? or higher, fast healing X

[Blackhawk748]

There's a Pathfinder feat called Brilliant Planner (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/brilliant-planner/) which has most of what you're looking for.

Halflings (https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Well-Prepared) and Pathfinder Chroniclers (https://pathfinder.d20srd.org/coreRulebook/prestigeClasses/pathfinderChronicler.html#deep-pockets) can do similar things.

Arbitrary Alchemy is fun, but usually extremely low-op (not useful past low levels) or extremely high-op (takes forever to trawl sourcebooks), especially in 3.5

I suppose Brilliant Planner is a decent idea. Its not the most gripping ability, but it does seem to fit the Fighter.

Also I can't find Arbitrary Alchemy anywhere


Maybe you could give martial classes bonuses on their social skills. Give a fighter bonuses on bluff, diplomacy, intimidate base on their level and strength. Give fighters limited or no dex penalty or skill penalties for wearing heavy armour since they are so used to wearing it all of the time.

Give classes with full BAB extra damage when they crit, or no need to roll to confirm crit.

Give martial classes with a con of 15? or higher, fast healing X

How would we justify bonuses to Social Skills? The reduction of ACP is decent.

And these are just more combat bonuses, which isn't what Im going for.

[Mordante]

How would we justify bonuses to Social Skills? The reduction of ACP is decent.

And these are just more combat bonuses, which isn't what Im going for.

Warning, this post is biased.

Many martial characters have are physically fit. I think good looks and fit body will certainly help in certain social encounters.

If you Google Magnus Midtbø, that is how I see a human fighter for looks.

[NichG]

Choosable class features:

- Moment to strike: From a life of hunting and raiding experience, the character can time their actions to coincide with an adversary organization's moments of weakness. Whenever this character can influence the moment to enter or initiate an adversarial situation, 1d4 nonspecific (supporting forces, minions, etc; never commanders or sole guardians) units of the adversary's forces in each encounter are out of position - in another room, still asleep in their barracks, etc as appropriate. This could apply to guards in a manor, lawyers of an enemy prosecution team, opposing bidders in an auction, bandits met on the road, etc.

- Assess Situation: the character can quickly identify those in a given situation who are preparing to act, identify lines of interest that they break along, and determine safe of dangerous places to stand (metaphorically) if stuff goes down. This requires a Sense Motive check as an Immediate action against the passive Bluff of each potential participant, with a bonus equal to class level on the check. The result of the check provides: what would trigger the character to rash action, what action the character is immediately likely to take in response (attack, flee, bluster, make demands, become defensive), which other characters would have their back, and what would make the user of this class ability be or not be a target.

- Logistics Mastery: This character can stretch the usage of consumables. Every time they use a consumable resource or control its provision to others (e.g. as camp cook), there is a 50% reduction in resources consumed (or a 50% chance that a single unit of consumable is not consumed). Affects potions, scrolls, wand and item charges (but not daily uses or spell slots), ammo, food, wondrous items. Does affect material components of spells. Does not affect gold for crafting or purchase. Does not result in duplication (e.g. cannot cook food into new ingredients, which are then cooked again, etc)

- Commanding Presence: In any situation where there is an active leadership void (people trying to decide what to do as a group, but without any kind of consensus of who should be the one to determine that), characters with Commanding Presence automatically have priority over being the ones the group decides should be in control, overriding rank, social status, religious authority, etc. If only a single character (or single side) present has Commanding Presence, they can automatically organize the group and retain their obedience for 1 minute per point of Charisma modifier - whether they stay in control after that depends on what they do with it. Individuals can exclude themselves from this control at any time but must actively break from the group to do so - they must stop all association with members who have remained with the group.

- Redeemer: The character's reputation in friendly lands is as someone trusted to warrant the good behavior of criminals or dangerous forces, to ultimately redeem them. A prisoner or captive who agrees to work towards reform under this character's guidance finds it difficult to betray that agreement (even if it was made with the intent to betray), requiring a Will save DC 10+CL/2+Cha mod in each instance of attempting to betray the character's trust from then on, until released by the character or until the terms of their agreement with the character have been betrayed. This overrides other sources of loss of agency - curses, compulsions, even mind control, so long as the character fails the save. The effectiveness of this is known to authorities, and they will be generally willing to trust that the character is capable of redeeming their wards. This ability can only be applied to one target per Charisma modifier at a time.

- Worldly Soldier: The character has experienced living among many other cultures, dealing with unknown languages, potentially hostile communities, etc, and can adapt to such situations with complete fluidity. The character can communicate with people at a basic level even if they don't share a language. The character never suffers penalties to Gather Information, Knowledges, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Disguise, Forgery, or Sense Motive for reasons of language, cultural or racial differences, or unfamiliarity.

- Honorable Reputation: So long as the character is not lying, it is obvious to all who listen directly to them that the character is not lying, regardless of their Sense Motive or the Bluff of others who might claim that the character lied. Furthermore, attempts to convince others who did not hear them speak directly that the character has lied have their DCs increased by 20. If the character lies in a major way in a publicly visible manner, this class feature is refunded and cannot be chosen again.

- Military engineer: large-scale tasks organized by this character take only 50% of the usual time, and those operating under the character's orders may take 20 for skill checks involved in the construction process even if there would normally be consequences for failure, as long as the project as a whole takes at least 30 minutes.

- Scuttlebutt: The character has contacts within one military, guard, or mercenary organization per class level. When in need of information about operations, changes to protocols, or events that might have impacted those forces, they can reach out to their contacts for answers 1/week each. For general operations, they will get straight answers. For secret stuff, they will get a confirmation whether or not there is something going on, but no details.

[Biggus]

If you don't normally allow Leadership, maybe make it available to classes which don't get spells or pets? Possibly even as a class feature starting at level 3?



How would we justify bonuses to Social Skills? The reduction of ACP is decent.


Maybe use the variant where you can use Str for Intimidate instead of Cha?

[Doctor Despair]

Iirc there's literally a 3.5 class that gets to decide on nonmagical gear it brought into a dungeon after the fact

[liquidformat]

Specifically on Intimidate checks having Str replace Cha or be added as a bonus to Cha makes a lot of sense to me. If you are threatening to punch someone's lights out having a lot of muscles is normally beneficial to that after all. On the other hand bluff and diplomacy aren't quite as straightforward of a link between str and those abilities. Though I can see an argument that in a 'might makes right' type of culture being bigger and stronger makes what you say carry more weight and be 'more correct' in which case str could work reasonably well on bluff and diplomacy too.

I also love the trapkiller ACF for barbarians and in my time playing around with classes have just added it as a bonus class feature. It does a lot to give the barb another out of combat ability.

On Fighters one change I really like is rather than their standard skill choices I instead let them choose any 7 of the following skills to be class skills, once this decision is made it cannot be changed: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, diplomacy, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Iaijutsu Focus, Jump, Knowledge (any, each chosen individually), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Perform (weapon Drills), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble. After all fighter is supposed to be a very customizable class and an archer wouldn't have the same skills as a swashbuckler, as a thug, and so forth.

I also made the following change to the way skill points are determined by each class:
Base 2+Int for being a d20 System creature.
Plus 2 for not having Int as a keystone of your class features.
Plus 2 for having no Spell Slot/Powers progression at all.
Plus 2 for being a skill usage focused class. (20+ without skill combining, 17+ with skill combining)

[AsuraKyoko]

Specifically on Intimidate checks having Str replace Cha or be added as a bonus to Cha makes a lot of sense to me. If you are threatening to punch someone's lights out having a lot of muscles is normally beneficial to that after all. On the other hand bluff and diplomacy aren't quite as straightforward of a link between str and those abilities. Though I can see an argument that in a 'might makes right' type of culture being bigger and stronger makes what you say carry more weight and be 'more correct' in which case str could work reasonably well on bluff and diplomacy too.

I also love the trapkiller ACF for barbarians and in my time playing around with classes have just added it as a bonus class feature. It does a lot to give the barb another out of combat ability.

On Fighters one change I really like is rather than their standard skill choices I instead let them choose any 7 of the following skills to be class skills, once this decision is made it cannot be changed: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, diplomacy, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Iaijutsu Focus, Jump, Knowledge (any, each chosen individually), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Perform (weapon Drills), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble. After all fighter is supposed to be a very customizable class and an archer wouldn't have the same skills as a swashbuckler, as a thug, and so forth.

I also made the following change to the way skill points are determined by each class:
Base 2+Int for being a d20 System creature.
Plus 2 for not having Int as a keystone of your class features.
Plus 2 for having no Spell Slot/Powers progression at all.
Plus 2 for being a skill usage focused class. (20+ without skill combining, 17+ with skill combining)

I really like that skill point calculation metric, how well has it worked out?

Another thing that would be interesting to combine with it would be an expanded Skill Tricks system. Adding a bunch more tricks that allow you to do a wide variety of things would go a long way to giving non-magical characters utility options. Pathfinder 2e kinda did this with their Skill Feats progression, but IMO it wasn't executed very well.

To explain, in PF2e, characters got a special type of feat called a Skill Feat at every even level. These feats were each tied to a specific skill and generally improved or expanded the use of that skill in some way. Some of them are really cool, and can open up interesting/fun options; for example, the feat Bon Mot allows you to make a Diplomacy check to fire off a witty quip that gets under an enemy's skin, causing them to take a penalty to their will saves until they quip back.

Unfortunately, a lot of the skill feats are either small situational bonuses to your checks, or are things that you really ought to be able to do already, such as intimidate a group of people.

All in all, I think that skills are the simplest way to give non-magic characters enhanced utility, especially if you expand the number of available skill tricks significantly.

[liquidformat]

Its worked really well and there are very few classes that don't ether stay the same or get a slight boost beguiler is the main one that comes to mind as it drops to 4+nt skill points.

I have actually been working on expanding skill tricks (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18fd5uy3xd6rLdGe5zNZ2KlgTYqJAjhcLs-72pQ0vFzw/edit?usp=sharing) and adjusting feats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFwSVo331SLpKZRV_1utDb_IBKt4lwNtXlPgEgpjX8w/edit?usp=sharing) to help out mundanes. One idea I have had was adjust adaptive style so it can also refresh your skill tricks during battle.

[Aracor]

Drop the fighter entirely.

Its problem isn't mechanical - its problem is in design. The fighter (design-wise) is supposed to be the guy who fights in combat. There are two major problems with this:

#1: In an RPG when there is intended to be a LOT of interaction outside of combat, the fighter has no role outside of combat.
#2: EVERYONE is expected to have a role in combat. So the fighter's singular role overlaps with literally every other class/character in the game. And it has nothing to do outside of that overlapping role.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I like getting myself a Device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) of a riverine or shapesand +1 sizing/morphing/metalline/skillful/aptitude weapon with a stacked-effect weapon crystal (from MIC). Yeah, the base item before Device-ification is a magic item, but you'd be amazed at how crazy-useful having an item that can turn into anything usable as a weapon of any size (and several different materials) can be. And if it's shapesand, it can turn into non-weapon things and can't ever be destroyed (at the risk of a high-Wis enemy or a lucky roll taking your control from you), whereas riverine is a bit less versatile but is indestructible through most means in its normal material composition, although can be disintegrated (or damaged/destroyed when it changes materials).

Still, that's technically non-magical, although it's definitely not mundane.

Aurorum is kind of a mix of the above. It has some of the benefits of riverine and shapesand but not all of them, but it doesn't have the weaknesses of either.

[Blackhawk748]

Warning, this post is biased.

Many martial characters have are physically fit. I think good looks and fit body will certainly help in certain social encounters.

If you Google Magnus Midtbø, that is how I see a human fighter for looks.

That kinda just feels like that should be a circumstance bonus instead of a Class feature.


Choosable class features:

I like a bunch of these actually, I may steal them.


Drop the fighter entirely.

Its problem isn't mechanical - its problem is in design. The fighter (design-wise) is supposed to be the guy who fights in combat. There are two major problems with this:

#1: In an RPG when there is intended to be a LOT of interaction outside of combat, the fighter has no role outside of combat.
#2: EVERYONE is expected to have a role in combat. So the fighter's singular role overlaps with literally every other class/character in the game. And it has nothing to do outside of that overlapping role.

In 3.5 you aren't wrong, but in 2e and 1e the Fighter being The Guy That Fights was important and necessary, as they were the primary combat class, and they had a bunch of things that made them the best at doing that.

The main issue nowadays is that they aren't the best at breaking skulls and suck at everything else, so I rather let them keep being the specific entitity that they are, and just improve the out of combat part like how we upped the Spellcaster's in combat part.

[Thurbane]

Well firstly, all mundane characters should have more skill points, with the possible exception of those that already get 8/level. 4 minimum.

Secondly, classes like Fighter and Knight desperately need to have the skill lists expanded. I tend to give a Knight any skills from the Aristocrat list they don't already have. I created a custom, thematic list for Fighters in my own game, too. Othersie, give them the same skills as Warblade.

[liquidformat]

Well firstly, all mundane characters should have more skill points, with the possible exception of those that already get 8/level. 4 minimum.

Secondly, classes like Fighter and Knight desperately need to have the skill lists expanded. I tend to give a Knight any skills from the Aristocrat list they don't already have. I created a custom, thematic list for Fighters in my own game, too. Othersie, give them the same skills as Warblade.

Here is what I went with for Fighter (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BTsHU6ABZcdx3wZbCln6DDeoZh4PpZopZ8WhXxrFZoY/edit?usp=sharing) For Knight I just mashed it together with Marshal making the Marshal Knight (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JQ0ASlof3lsjwbeZEy0FM4mWyEeXelcji0x0Ju-oKSo/edit?usp=sharing), the two classes work really nicely together. For other things like Soulborn (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pRnlqeuBFlC8owuIGpoddXdtp_2bM4rlnXq9cNWvvk/edit?usp=sharing) and swashbuckler (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wS5zvvhSu-9J2SdbCMVPqr9o-g7OB6--4474dTbwKBY/edit?usp=sharing) I just turned them into early entry PRCs.
I also found the following BAB Change to work nicely to give beatsticks more options:
+8 and +15 - additional attacks as standard action.
+12 - 1 attack as swift action.
+19 - 1 attack as a free action.

Properties of this progression
1. For the price of a standard and a swift, at BAB+15 you do get 4 extra attacks, but not technically a full attack action, which some bits of the game specifically interact with(hence why it's okay to get these a BAB earlier than a regular 4-attack full attack).
2. You get a nice progression in the mid levels, where you keep getting interesting new options regularly.
3. A default use of your swift action, which for certain builds is a very good idea.
4. Swift actions count as free. So anytime you can act - including around AoOs, immediate actions, etc.
5. 1 attack as a free action is strong, but still pales in comparison to what casters do at these levels. Abuse potential indeterminate. Food for thought. Only counterpoint might be that it adds more of the same rather than interesting things to do. Quantitative rather than qualitative. Martials are significantly better served by the latter.

[sreservoir]

I like getting myself a Device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) of a riverine or shapesand +1 sizing/morphing/metalline/skillful/aptitude weapon with a stacked-effect weapon crystal (from MIC). Yeah, the base item before Device-ification is a magic item, but you'd be amazed at how crazy-useful having an item that can turn into anything usable as a weapon of any size (and several different materials) can be. And if it's shapesand, it can turn into non-weapon things and can't ever be destroyed (at the risk of a high-Wis enemy or a lucky roll taking your control from you), whereas riverine is a bit less versatile but is indestructible through most means in its normal material composition, although can be disintegrated (or damaged/destroyed when it changes materials).

Still, that's technically non-magical, although it's definitely not mundane.

Aurorum is kind of a mix of the above. It has some of the benefits of riverine and shapesand but not all of them, but it doesn't have the weaknesses of either.

You know, I strongly suspect that nobody who ever suggests Mordenheim devices for ... anything, really, has taken a good, hard look at their rules, since the moment you try to work one into something a character is actually doing, they ... don't work. Nonmagical but gratuitously more expensive wands (with bonus weird usage restrictions), sure, but the moment you start making non-charged devices it gets hard to even assume a "reasonable" understanding of the rules because the rules flat out don't make sense when you drop the implicit assumption that the item you're making a device of is charged. And while Maxi here is known to have a high tolerance for creatively filling in gaps between rules in the most favorable conceivable way, some of us don't have the imagination to keep up.

[Mordante]

Specifically on Intimidate checks having Str replace Cha or be added as a bonus to Cha makes a lot of sense to me. If you are threatening to punch someone's lights out having a lot of muscles is normally beneficial to that after all. On the other hand bluff and diplomacy aren't quite as straightforward of a link between str and those abilities. Though I can see an argument that in a 'might makes right' type of culture being bigger and stronger makes what you say carry more weight and be 'more correct' in which case str could work reasonably well on bluff and diplomacy too.

I also love the trapkiller ACF for barbarians and in my time playing around with classes have just added it as a bonus class feature. It does a lot to give the barb another out of combat ability.

On Fighters one change I really like is rather than their standard skill choices I instead let them choose any 7 of the following skills to be class skills, once this decision is made it cannot be changed: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, diplomacy, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Iaijutsu Focus, Jump, Knowledge (any, each chosen individually), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Perform (weapon Drills), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble. After all fighter is supposed to be a very customizable class and an archer wouldn't have the same skills as a swashbuckler, as a thug, and so forth.

I also made the following change to the way skill points are determined by each class:
Base 2+Int for being a d20 System creature.
Plus 2 for not having Int as a keystone of your class features.
Plus 2 for having no Spell Slot/Powers progression at all.
Plus 2 for being a skill usage focused class. (20+ without skill combining, 17+ with skill combining)

Not sure if I agree on the extra skill points. I think it devalues playing a skill monkey. What the point of playing a bard or rogue when everyone get more skill points?

[Mordante]

Drop the fighter entirely.

Its problem isn't mechanical - its problem is in design. The fighter (design-wise) is supposed to be the guy who fights in combat. There are two major problems with this:

#1: In an RPG when there is intended to be a LOT of interaction outside of combat, the fighter has no role outside of combat.
#2: EVERYONE is expected to have a role in combat. So the fighter's singular role overlaps with literally every other class/character in the game. And it has nothing to do outside of that overlapping role.

I don't agree with either.
1 IMHO outside of combat, during social interactions, there is really no need for dice rolls.
2 My fighter together with the rogue in in the party are the main damage dealers. The casters (Devine Oracle and a Illusion Wizard) hardly have any offensive spells.

[Blackhawk748]

Not sure if I agree on the extra skill points. I think it devalues playing a skill monkey. What the point of playing a bard or rogue when everyone get more skill points?

I don't think letting Paladins and Fighters have 4 skill points per level undervalues the Rogue or the Bard. The bard has spells and Bardic Music in any event and the Rogue should probably get Free Skill Tricks or something to help make them a better Skill Monkey

[liquidformat]

Not sure if I agree on the extra skill points. I think it devalues playing a skill monkey. What the point of playing a bard or rogue when everyone get more skill points?

I am not really seeing how giving more skill points devalues rogues or bards, ranger already has 6 just like bard and those three classes are more skill monkey like because they have a huge range of skills. Barbarians normally get 4 skill points but also often don't have a positive int score so this is just balancing them out. Also Barbarians don't tend to have a lot to do with their skill points where as rogues often have too much, giving barbs a few more skill points and trapkiller lets them feel useful outside of combat while taking some strain off of the rogue.

[MornShine]

One of the standard problems is that everything anyone can do, a spell can do better-- charm person, find traps, divine might, et cetera.

I heartily approve of adding skill-points to the martial classes-- it makes sense in-universe also, as casters tend to be very isolated from the world (clerics, wizards) or very young (sorcerers), whereas martials often are depicted as having more life experience.

One of the "quick-fix" recommendations I would suggest would be that any time a martial character gets a minuscule "ribbon" bonus, triple it. Or quadruple it.

Swashbucklers get a bonus to seduction in the 'dead levels' web article; turn it from something merely amusing to something downright useful.

Tome of Battle has an awesome Duel of Wills mechanic, but it gives small bonuses. Why not turn it into something concrete?

If you're fighting a sapient, the fighterish-exclusive knowledge(martial lore) should give you their affiliation, preferred weapon, danger level, fighting style, height, weight, and mother's maiden name. If you're fighting a beast, the barbarian can do the same.

Et cetera, et cetera.

[Blackhawk748]

One of the standard problems is that everything anyone can do, a spell can do better-- charm person, find traps, divine might, et cetera.

I don't disagree, but that's why I want to give the Martials stuff that's always on, both to stay on theme for them and to not really try to compete with spells. Cuz you aren't fighting Glibness.

And if they have some sort of ability that's just on all the time, and its actually a decent ability, there may be no reason to waste a slot on something like Find Traps or Charm, because the Martial can deal with and the mage can save it for the time where failure is not an option.


One of the "quick-fix" recommendations I would suggest would be that any time a martial character gets a minuscule "ribbon" bonus, triple it. Or quadruple it.

Swashbucklers get a bonus to seduction in the 'dead levels' web article; turn it from something merely amusing to something downright useful.

Tome of Battle has an awesome Duel of Wills mechanic, but it gives small bonuses. Why not turn it into something concrete?

If you're fighting a sapient, the fighterish-exclusive knowledge(martial lore) should give you their affiliation, preferred weapon, danger level, fighting style, height, weight, and mother's maiden name. If you're fighting a beast, the barbarian can do the same.

Et cetera, et cetera.

Considering how low many of those bonuses were (seriously how many random +2s did they hand out?) That sounds perfectly fine. Like, getting a +8 to Strength checks or something at like level 10 is perfectly fine.

Also I find the change to Martial Lore hilarious.

[RandomPeasant]

And while Maxi here is known to have a high tolerance for creatively filling in gaps between rules in the most favorable conceivable way, some of us don't have the imagination to keep up.

In fairness, that's a less relevant concern in the context of "I would like to fill in the rules to do this thing". Acknowledging that there are holes there is useful, but if you're changing the rules you can just fill the holes too.


Not sure if I agree on the extra skill points. I think it devalues playing a skill monkey. What the point of playing a bard or rogue when everyone get more skill points?

The Rogue gets Trapfinding, which is potentially a really important ability (and one of the only things that's an explicitly protected niche for non-casters), though it depends on the DM employing a lot of traps for the Rogue to find. The Bard gets a whole bunch of magic and songs and whatnot. Though honestly, if you're bumping up the Fighter and Barbarian to 4 or 6 skills, I wouldn't be opposed to making the Rogue 10 or something.


One of the standard problems is that everything anyone can do, a spell can do better-- charm person, find traps, divine might, et cetera.

In an E6 environment, I wouldn't be too worried about that. A spell may be better than a skill, but the margin isn't very large when you're talking about charm person or knock rather than dominate person or teleport, and the spell slots are a big enough deal that saving one by having the relevant skill can really matter. At 3rd (or even 6th) level, the 2nd level spell slot a Wizard would have to commit to knock can potentially win a fight, so Open Lock has a viable niche (even outside the inherent niche of getting to do it at will).

[Blackhawk748]

The Rogue gets Trapfinding, which is potentially a really important ability (and one of the only things that's an explicitly protected niche for non-casters), though it depends on the DM employing a lot of traps for the Rogue to find. The Bard gets a whole bunch of magic and songs and whatnot. Though honestly, if you're bumping up the Fighter and Barbarian to 4 or 6 skills, I wouldn't be opposed to making the Rogue 10 or something.

Trapfinding is something were I kinda prefer Pathfinder's take on it. Anyone can technically do it, but Rogues are far and away better than it. Then again Id probably buff it as a bonus to finding hidden doors or something too. Make them really good at locating hidden stuff.

Also, here's one of those weird ideas for mundane yet useful abilities

Master Provisioner
The character is well versed in properly outfitting a unit and as such, they are capable of finding excellent deals for basic necessities. The character spends 1d4 Hours and makes a Gather Information check (DC = 10 + Community size + 1 per item type) and, if successful, they find a seller willing to sell the items in question for 10% less than the local market price. This ability can only be used to locate mundane adventuring gear (eg Foodstuffs, bedrolls, rope, basic spell components etc), mundane and non-masterwork ammunition, mundane and non-masterwork weapons, and mundane and non-masterwork armor. This ability can be used 1/week.

Like, can you use this to technically make infinite gold? Like, sure, but that just turns the Fighter into a merchant and Im totally ok with that.

[NichG]

Also with things like Charm, that's quite a hostile action to take if people notice or find out you've been using it. Whereas there's room for abilities that don't forcibly change a target's mind, or which can be detected as an overt action with the intent to manipulate (casting Glibness before an interrogation), but which instead change the aptitude or reputation of a character and as such: are undetectable, are socially acceptable, cannot be connected to an intent to manipulate, and do not offer any save or resistance to their effects (even if those effects are necessarily less overt than a Charm or Dominate).

Having a noble title and the legal and socially recognized right to demand a duel in response to an insult is a different kind of power, so it works alongside stuff like Charm rather than competing for the same function.

[Remuko]

If you're fighting a sapient, the fighterish-exclusive knowledge(martial lore) should give you their ... and mother's maiden name. If you're fighting a beast, the barbarian can do the same.

Ah see, minor confusion. Knowledge of their mothers maiden name is exclusive to MARITAL Lore not MARTIAL Lore

[Aracor]

I don't agree with either.
1 IMHO outside of combat, during social interactions, there is really no need for dice rolls.
If that was true, why are there social skills at all? They didn't exist in 2nd edition. To me, they are a good thing because otherwise social skills are dependent upon the player skill rather than the character. And the idea behind role-playing is to separate yourself from the character written on the paper.

2 My fighter together with the rogue in in the party are the main damage dealers. The casters (Devine Oracle and a Illusion Wizard) hardly have any offensive spells.
What do offensive spells have to do with it? Are you suggesting that your spellcasters don't take actions in combat? I'd be willing to bet that they still take actions every single combat.

[Mordante]

I don't think letting Paladins and Fighters have 4 skill points per level undervalues the Rogue or the Bard. The bard has spells and Bardic Music in any event and the Rogue should probably get Free Skill Tricks or something to help make them a better Skill Monkey

I'm not sure what skill tricks are. I have heard about them never looked them up.

[Biggus]

I'm not sure what skill tricks are. I have heard about them never looked them up.

Complete Scoundrel p.82-90. They're kind of like feats except they cost 2 skill points each to buy and you can only use them once per encounter.

[Blackhawk748]

Complete Scoundrel p.82-90. They're kind of like feats except they cost 2 skill points each to buy and you can only use them once per encounter.

And most of them don't need that limit IMO. Like, oh no! You can climb 10 extra feet or you can run up a wall!

Like, that should just be a thing you get to do all the time if you get the Skill Trick.

[liquidformat]

And most of them don't need that limit IMO. Like, oh no! You can climb 10 extra feet or you can run up a wall!

Like, that should just be a thing you get to do all the time if you get the Skill Trick.

yeah 90% most of them should be useable with no limit, there are only one or two that could be abused even those aren't crazy or game breaking.

If you could use it at will it would make skill tricks like acrobatic backstab and Hidden Blade more useful.

[Blackhawk748]

So, I've found it easy to give Fighters out of combat stuff, mostly centered around "soldier=y" things like better logistics, carousing in taverns with other soldiers and just anything you'd see a veteran doing.

Barbarians Im having bigger issues with. Like, they could just have similar stuff to Fighters, but that doesn't feel right to me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take everything the barbarian does and give it to the ranger. Then give the ranger a two-handed fighting style, which takes away the animal companion (which is less than useful anyway) and grants rage.

[Blackhawk748]

Take everything the barbarian does and give it to the ranger. Then give the ranger a two-handed fighting style, which takes away the animal companion (which is less than useful anyway) and grants rage.

Thats an option I suppose, I was always gonna make a two handed ranger anyway (hi Aragorn) but I usually gave them full Animal Companion progression anyway as its a nice pairing for them.

The barbarian I just doubled down on being a Berzerker and just dialed it all up for in combat stuff.

[liquidformat]

To start with I think just making trapkiller ACF a normal class feature in addition to trap sense is a great idea. Not only does it make barbs a bit more useful outside of combat but it helps free up your rogue for other things since they have so many skills to put points into. I also really like the rage powers from PF unchained barbarian.

[Blackhawk748]

To start with I think just making trapkiller ACF a normal class feature in addition to trap sense is a great idea. Not only does it make barbs a bit more useful outside of combat but it helps free up your rogue for other things since they have so many skills to put points into. I also really like the rage powers from PF unchained barbarian.

That's certainly something to give them. I'm more a fan of giving them access to a list of abilities they can pick from at certain levels, so that will be going on their.

Probably gonna look at the Rage powers too

[bekeleven]

Normally I try not to plug my homebrew, but since this is literally a thread about homebrewing solutions, I want to mention I threw all of these classes into a blender and made the professional (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332829), a powerful but generic martial mundane designed to keep up with spellcasters. So my answer is essentially "give the fighter the rogue's skill points, which is fair because we gave the rogue the fighter's attack bonus."

[Brackenlord]

To start with I think just making trapkiller ACF a normal class feature in addition to trap sense is a great idea. Not only does it make barbs a bit more useful outside of combat but it helps free up your rogue for other things since they have so many skills to put points into. I also really like the rage powers from PF unchained barbarian.

Easy houserule, the Tier 4s or any mundane gestalt with thenselves, you keep every ability from the 1-20 progression and a virtual extra copy to trade for ACFs.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Spheres of Might does a pretty good job at giving martials utility!

[liquidformat]

Easy houserule, the Tier 4s or any mundane gestalt with thenselves, you keep every ability from the 1-20 progression and a virtual extra copy to trade for ACFs.

While there are some helpful ACFs they typically aren't powerful enough ACFs to make much of a difference. For example while pounce is incredibly powerful and great for mundane melee characters, adding pounce isn't enough to move tier. The only two that come to mind that are powerful enough to boost a class to a different tier are wild shape and mystic ranger which boost ranger from tier 4 to tier 3 and 2 respectively, I suppose wild shape monk also boosts monks but they are still sitting tier 4 even with the ACF. Furthermore, the big issue with a lot of mundane classes and AFCs is it just adds more numbers and often not enough to make a difference.

I have actually been slowly working my way through different classes, game mechanics and feats to try and bring everything up to at least tier 3. Here is what I have so far:
Adjusted and new feats (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFwSVo331SLpKZRV_1utDb_IBKt4lwNtXlPgEgpjX8w/edit?usp=sharing)
Arcane Archer (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1trAzJvtKQDpZkAxgXpjkYOdozNpnaduQfPzWZTBFS_Y/edit?usp=sharing)
Barbarian (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nPAEzoIT8kPypdmG61iv-xTVnE-cYA3z8ACzB0EJ7j0/edit?usp=sharing)
Duskblade Spell Expansion (https://docs.google.com/document/d/193QeMOs4xX-zrEMxLNiNRN0kE0rw6fXsYz8zXWkwQyw/edit?usp=sharing)
Fighter (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BTsHU6ABZcdx3wZbCln6DDeoZh4PpZopZ8WhXxrFZoY/edit?usp=sharing)
Hexblade (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11iILDH03wZD6dyOt77Dj50pAxmlfsCgL6uHfDaeYv9E/edit?usp=sharing)
Marshal Knight
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JQ0ASlof3lsjwbeZEy0FM4mWyEeXelcji0x0Ju-oKSo/edit?usp=sharing)Martial Monk (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mKJvG3KAoPN57vwOJFzwUxS5F6c9UZZWz5sydtzwGog/edit?usp=sharing) Psionic Monk (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nQ3rKxQINAO45kGq34WDR6d9xhEFMhn07nOzGLCYkgI/edit?usp=sharing)
Ninja (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17WbdwwNj3Lpf1e-VAh3ycIWpM2ppsrT_3tUtb-EVwcY/edit?usp=sharing)
Orlesian Bard (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LJuahUeJGvnh2xpHLpOTV7F8_xrO_4sm242Lt3qfh78/edit?usp=sharing)
Paladin (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e4ab17su_rojoA4XyQiQz1oLzVx28tyL6JtkdllXQ74/edit?usp=sharing) Templar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFFENqyVsMllM2uVeVibRtzEKhTH09P00byAQUIVhpE/edit?usp=sharing)
Ranger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rXAztJ3CRC60yxfl0eoBOz38YZx2hPa_IcHON5lhjZI/edit?usp=sharing) Ranger ToB Var (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rXAztJ3CRC60yxfl0eoBOz38YZx2hPa_IcHON5lhjZI/edit?usp=sharing)
Rule Variants (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dLVHpJPajteMu2dW9zJc_spUCROeuXPAyMjjwX8iuY/edit?usp=sharing)
Shifter (https://docs.google.com/document/d/17fKdiVWQwuUOlL3yy1BBmrrXwQ-otEgtYRplju7swZM/edit?usp=sharing)
Soulborn (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pRnlqeuBFlC8owuIGpoddXdtp_2bM4rlnXq9cNWvvk/edit?usp=sharing)
Soulknife (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uWgc-kUdEFflQlnVO1IC4iXGXSmRtjjipFhCEY2KTu4/edit?usp=sharing)
Swashbuckler (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wS5zvvhSu-9J2SdbCMVPqr9o-g7OB6--4474dTbwKBY/edit?usp=sharing)
PRC Revamp (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MEEHyBeZo2j4xmeWrIhOI0j7kCFOS1EkRXOpilWydbo/edit?usp=sharing)
Reachrunner (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15AOsG9-xsQmDB_R7Kp0LTXZJmMlwfTIwy38CeMH2BiI/edit?usp=sharing)

[AsuraKyoko]

Spheres of Might does a pretty good job at giving martials utility!

It sure does! A number of the spheres are dedicated to it (Alchemy being my personal favorite), but they just about all have some form of utility available.