Five man team

[tomjon]

As a thought experiment, what five man team would you make. Rules are only official books no magic items* and must be playable levels 3-17. In that time frame expect all settings from desert to water and city to deserted landscapes.

I am very interested to see what roles the playground thinks are a must and what is a throw away. Is damage dealing the best or something with extreme staying power a better option? I think perhaps it is something with both elements but I may have missed the mark on that.

I have some ideas but I am really stumped on the best way to go. This will be for a new campaign that promises to be on the deadly side.

PS just asking for a friend or 4.

*no must have item to make it all work

[Witty Username]

Would this be me and my friends making five characters or me playing a group of five?

[Eldariel]

Well, if the goal is maximal ability to solve as many as hard encounters as possible, it seems the same as ever:
Wizard: Diviner, Chronurgist or Bladesinger
Bard: Lore or Swords
Cleric: Peace or Twilight
Druid: Moon or Shepherd
X (Warlock or Paladin or Sorcadin most likely)


There's some leeway to how you do the whole thing but largely, any shell with all the major caster lists and the best subclasses in the game is going to be amazing: the casters conveniently line up so that about half of them tend to be fighting types anyways. I suggest building either Wizard or Bard as an archer.

The thing to realise is that the more resources you have, the less you need to care about resourceless fights. Thus just piling on the resources is generally going to outcompete other strategies, especially given how damn strong these resources are.

[Frogreaver]

As a thought experiment, what five man team would you make. Rules are only official books no magic items* and must be playable levels 3-17. In that time frame expect all settings from desert to water and city to deserted landscapes.

I am very interested to see what roles the playground thinks are a must and what is a throw away. Is damage dealing the best or something with extreme staying power a better option? I think perhaps it is something with both elements but I may have missed the mark on that.

I have some ideas but I am really stumped on the best way to go. This will be for a new campaign that promises to be on the deadly side.

PS just asking for a friend or 4.

*no must have item to make it all work

In many ways it depends alot more on player capabilities and willingness to commit to certain tactics than it does about which characters to bring. Alot also depends on encounters per day and short rest pacing that the DM allows for.


Well, if the goal is maximal ability to solve as many as hard encounters as possible, it seems the same as ever:
Wizard: Diviner, Chronurgist or Bladesinger
Bard: Lore or Swords
Cleric: Peace or Twilight
Druid: Moon or Shepherd
X (Warlock or Paladin or Sorcadin most likely)


IMO. Full casters aren't very strong till they start getting sufficient level 3+ spells. This party will eventually be stronger than most others, but it won't start out that way.

[Eldariel]

IMO. Full casters aren't very strong till they start getting sufficient level 3+ spells. This party will eventually be stronger than most others, but it won't start out that way.

Well, he said "3-17": on low levels you have Sleeps and Webs while martials are trudging along with a single attack. Tier 1 casters aren't as obviously strong, but there's nothing else that would be even worth considering: martials are fairly worthless 1-4, they really only begin to do stuff on 5+ (well, Vuman/CLineage with PAM/XBE can help - the big issue is that about 30% of their turns simply do nothing since their abilities do nothing on miss and they have no autohit abilities or such with only a single attack - but casters can use those feats just the same of course). If you wanted to emphasize 3-4, you could take Moon Druid in there to pretty much just have an absurd powerspike on those levels but in the long run, Shepherd is obviously better.

[Frogreaver]

Well, he said "3-17": on low levels you have Sleeps and Webs while martials are trudging along with a single attack. Tier 1 casters aren't as obviously strong, but there's nothing else that would be even worth considering:

Tier 1 casters aren't 'strong' at all. They are okay.


martials are fairly worthless 1-4,

I don't think we play the same game. In my games generally the martials carry the casters in tier 1 and usually outperform them even in early tier 2. Not saying casters don't have their moments, but they aren't on the same level.


they really only begin to do stuff on 5+ (well, Vuman/CLineage with PAM/XBE can help -

Obviously.


the big issue is that about 30% of their turns simply do nothing since their abilities do nothing on miss and they have no autohit abilities or such with only a single attack

1. It's not like casters have much autohit stuff either. And after their 2-7 spell slots are used they are down to using cantrips?
2. Getting a bonus action attack significantly helps on the completely missing


- but casters can use those feats just the same of course). If you wanted to emphasize 3-4,

Not particularly well and it's a big investment for something they will likely stop using altogether by tier 3 at the latest (barring the melee oriented caster classes).


you could take Moon Druid in there to pretty much just have an absurd powerspike on those levels but in the long run, Shepherd is obviously better.

Sure. Moon Druids are great low level. For that matter, clerics are pretty strong low level characters as well. Wizards and bards are pretty weak in combat at these levels though. Bards have their out of combat stuff going i guess. Expertise and bardic inspiration.

[Kane0]

As a thought experiment, what five man team would you make. Rules are only official books no magic items* and must be playable levels 3-17. In that time frame expect all settings from desert to water and city to deserted landscapes.


My favourite party is the 'lock squad.
Celestial, Hexblade, Genie, Undead and Fathomless to spread things around so nobody feels like they are doubling up. If you want to multiclass then bard, paladin, sorcerer, fighter and rogue are all good options and again nobody feels like theyre doubling up. You can cheese things by all abusing devil sight + darkness or extended range EB push+slow but its not really necessary, every rest given means everyone is back to near 100% so this party has amazing endurance. Easy access to both strong scouts and all rituals really nicely rounds out utility functions on top of everyone being a capable blaster. Healing can be limited but there is an invocation to max it plus plenty of mitigation options to boot.
One thing you will have to be careful of are situations of long periods between rests, because in tiers 1 and 2 your spell slots will be limited. Magic items that give spells like wands and scrolls really go far to alleviate this, as do a few choice long duration spells like hour long summons but its worth being aware of.

[TyGuy]

Tortle kensei monk. (Leader)
Tortle artificer/monk. (Inventor)
Tortle barbarian/monk. (Cool guy)
Tortle drunken master monk. (Party dude)
Human champion fighter with tavern brawler for improvised weapons.

[Eldariel]

1. It's not like casters have much autohit stuff either. And after their 2-7 spell slots are used they are down to using cantrips?
2. Getting a bonus action attack significantly helps on the completely missing

Sure. A Vuman bonus action attacker is actually competitive. Still, compare casters and non-casters:
- Casters get 2-7 "I win"ish level abilities per day. Their at-will is almost as good as a martial's (a Light Crossbow Wizard or Bard for +5 at 1d8+3 is pretty much equal with most martials, or an ASI behind at best).
- Martials get a slightly better at-will that does nothing to shore up their lack of contribution on a good number of turns.


Not particularly well and it's a big investment for something they will likely stop using altogether by tier 3 at the latest (barring the melee oriented caster classes).

Obviously this is mostly for your Swords Bards, Bladesingers, Valor Bards, Hexblade Bladelocks, etc. They're just as much casters as all the others, getting 9th level spells in schedule.


Sure. Moon Druids are great low level. For that matter, clerics are pretty strong low level characters as well. Wizards and bards are pretty weak in combat at these levels though. Bards have their out of combat stuff going i guess. Expertise and bardic inspiration.

Wizards have 3-8 nukes that more or less win encounters on these levels. Even something like Dragon's Breath familiar is incredibly useful here. And the familiar itself is a Help bot even outside any spells. And most Wizard level 2 subclass abilities are pretty great (Portent, Hypnotic Gaze, Arcane Ward, Chronal Shift + Int to Initiative, etc.), up and above what most other classes get (barring few other casters). They are squishyish but their overall offensive contribution per day is second to none on these levels.

Bards are a bit weaker, it's true, but they still have good AOE spells, solid subclass abilities (including Swords Bard on level 3 for a Battlemaster Lite that can still end an encounter 5-7 times per day), etc. Bard is the weakest caster on these levels but they still come out ahead of non-casters on even long adventuring days thanks to their ability to occasionally give big contributions, while martials have...what, Action Surge for a single extra attack per short rest? Even that's not impressive before Extra Attack doubles its power. Rage is the big one but it's still more limited and less powerful than most level 1-2 spells.

[Amnestic]

"Nature's Wrath"
Beast (or Totem) Barbarian
Nature Cleric
Shepherd (or Land) Druid
Ancients Paladin
Beast Master Ranger

"The Dragonsworn"
Dragon Monk
Dragon Sorcerer
Dragon Ranger
Wildfire Druid
Genie "Dragon" Warlock ;)

I also had a shelved character concept for a squad of Warforged 'warlocks' whose power cores were their patron spirits. They had the leader (Undead), the ranged sniper (Genie), the medic (Celestial), the arcane expert (Fiend) and the meleeboy (Hexblade).

[Mastikator]

Bladesinging wizard
Twillight cleric
Moon druid
Hexblade warlock
Valor bard

Everyone can fill every role, the only issue might be 5 players with main character syndrome not cooperating.

[JellyPooga]

In no particular order;

1) Lightfoot Halfling, Lore Bard
- Social Skills covered, party buffs, cherry picked spells to fill the gaps

2) Half-Orc, Thief Rogue/Wolf Totem Barbarian
- Gives the casters a break from battlefield control, grapples, tank, doors&traps, Exploration Skills

3) Hill Dwarf, Mountain Land Druid
- All the Druidic goodness, scouting, Mountain adds some handy higher-level access, very spelly

4) Half-Elf, Undead Warlock, Tome Pact
- Death Ward, Spirit Projection, Eldritch Blast, doesn't breathe

5) Water Genasi, Ancients Paladin
- Auras, more healing, tank, anti-magic

[kingcheesepants]

there was a thread like a month ago that covered this almost exactly https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642236 you may find that discussion helpful.

However for my thinking making sure you cover your party role bases is more important than what classes your party has. A team of all wizards or all warlocks or clerics could theoretically cover all the bases and be well balanced while a "standard balanced" party of fighter, rouge, wizard, cleric, bard could be missing one or more important roles (unlikely but possible). The roles you want to make sure are full are control, support, social, skills (you want every skill to have at least one or two members with good scores in it), ranged damage, and melee damage. Every party member should excel in at least one area and be decent in one or two more.

In addition to making sure that you have all the roles covered it's also important to consider your tactics and teamwork. An "unbalanced" party that knows how to play to their strengths and work as a team will be significantly more effective than a party where everyone is just doing their own thing.

Regarding this last point I've personally seen teams that looked terrible (poorly balanced) do really well because they had good communication and were able to set each other up, combo their spells. focus fire and generally function well as a team and take out threats that should have been deadly. And I've also seen the reverse where a team that on paper looked great suffered defeat at the hands of a foe because they were doing things like casting darkness when only the warlock had the ability to see through it, the fighter attacked the person the bard put hypnotic pattern on rather than the enemies who passed their save, the wizard moved out of range of the support and thus couldn't be helped when he was downed. Just generally bad teamwork that lead to them getting killed.

[Bobthewizard]

I'll go with

Twilight cleric for the THP machine
Shepherd druid for summons and the Unicorn spirit
Devotion paladin to tank and for the auras
Bladesinger wizard for control, utility and AOE damage
Sharpshooter/CBE fighter or other ranged DPS

[RogueJK]

Control/Blasting/Utility Casting: Bladesinger Wizard
Melee DPR, Tank, Face, and backup Support casting: Vengeance Paladin 6 or 7/Divine Soul Sorcerer X, with PAM
Support casting and additional frontline Tanking: Twilight Cleric
Summons and additional Support/Control/Utility casting: Shepherd Druid
Skill Monkey, Scout, and Ranged DPR: Battlemaster Fighter 5/Arcane Trickster Rogue X with XBE and Sharpshooter

[Dork_Forge]

{Scrubbed}

For a five man team off the top of my head:

- Aasimar (MPMM version) Celestial chainlock

- Fighter (Psi Warrior), Dex-based

- Rogue (Soulknife)

- Artificer (Battle Smith or Armorer)

- Either a Divine Soul Sorcerer or a Monk (dealer's choice of Kensei, Astral, or Mercy)

I think that covers pretty much everything and is online straight from 3rd level.

[kazaryu]

Well, if the goal is maximal ability to solve as many as hard encounters as possible, it seems the same as ever:
Wizard: Diviner, Chronurgist or Bladesinger
Bard: Lore or Swords
Cleric: Peace or Twilight
Druid: Moon or Shepherd
X (Warlock or Paladin or Sorcadin most likely)


There's some leeway to how you do the whole thing but largely, any shell with all the major caster lists and the best subclasses in the game is going to be amazing: the casters conveniently line up so that about half of them tend to be fighting types anyways. I suggest building either Wizard or Bard as an archer.

The thing to realise is that the more resources you have, the less you need to care about resourceless fights. Thus just piling on the resources is generally going to outcompete other strategies, especially given how damn strong these resources are.

the big problem with a party like this, in a 'high lethality' style campaign is that you are pre-building the party with a massive, whopping, weakness. you're all magic users. IMO you want at least 1 that isn't a half or a full caster. probaly a fighter. you can somewhat compormise and have it be an EK, with some spell casting they'll still scale decently well. but if magic is just...not happening for whatever reason: having a character thats comfortable in that scenario is a lifeasver.

for your party i'd probably replace the druid with some manner of fighter, and have the 5th party member be a paladin or sorcadin.

[animorte]

My favourite party is the 'lock squad.


This, 100%

That is all.

[Leon]

Divine Caster
Arcane Caster
Skillful type
Physical combatant
Supportive option or a duplicate of the above

Yes it open and vague because when you have the above no matter the class it works well.

[yellowrocket]

Mobile Monster Squad
2 centaurs rogues for BA dash
2 kobolds (riding the centaurs) for pack tactics warlocks using repelling blast to try to maximize their get away space.
1 aracockra (or how ever it's spelled) druid for flying BFC, outdoor over watch, and dropping caltrops behind the running bandits or doing some other nefarious thing to help them get away.

[Ogre Mage]

Oath of Vengeance Paladin
Moon Druid
Twilight Cleric
Chronurgy Wizard
Lore Bard

[animorte]

All characters I have played and love:

VHuman Warlock - Genie/Chain
High Elf Fighter - Eldritch Knight
Ghostwise Halfling Rogue - Arcane Trickster
Wood Elf Ranger - Swarmkeeper
Hill Dwarf Cleric - Life

Or just go with 5 Warlocks, my favorite class.

[Frogreaver]

Twilight Cleric (Primary roles - party survivability, save booster, aoe damage)
Evocation Wizard (Primary roles - counterpsell, control, aoe damage)
Lore Bard (Primary roles - skills, control, counterspell, save booster)

Seems like that's the real core and also covers int, wis, cha skills well. There's solid redundancy in capabilities. The remaining roles are really about what to value most. Single Target Damage, Save boosting, tanking, dex and str skills. Some solid choices below (not exhaustive).

Artillerist Artificer (Primary roles - ranged damage, party survivability, save boosting)
Battlemaster CBE+SS (Primary roles - ranged damage, dex skills)
Paladin (Primary roles - melee damage, tanking, str skills, save boosting)
Rogue (Primary roles - skills, melee+ranged damage)

Also, doubling up on another Wizard or Bard could be promising. There's also some good multiclass combos I haven't covered.

***Note I left off Druid because conjure animals is their primary benefit and it's annoying in actual play. Without using that spell Druids lack alot of combat power compared to other class options.

[stoutstien]

4 artificers and a celestial chain lock. Efficient, effective, and flexible without touching any of the stuff considered out of the curve.

[Skrum]

Tortle kensei monk. (Leader)
Tortle artificer/monk. (Inventor)
Tortle barbarian/monk. (Cool guy)
Tortle drunken master monk. (Party dude)
Human champion fighter with tavern brawler for improvised weapons.

The correct answer, without doubt

[KorvinStarmast]

For the OP: if there is no multiclassing I have a couple of ideas.
With MC I'll not bother, plenty of decent ideas in the previous thread and this one also.

[arnin77]

My five (what I would make, not what I think is best)

VHuman Echo Knight w/sentinel@1
High Elf Arcane Trickster Rogue
VHuman Evocation Wizard w/resilient con@1
VHuman Tempest Cleric w/warcaster @1
VHuman Conquest Paladin w/menacing @1