Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Wraith]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. How do I start?
The best and most obvious way to start is either the Elite- or Command Editions of the starter set. This will get you a solid and relatively cheap start on either an Adeptus Astartes* army, or a Necrons army. If you aren't starting the game with a friend, you can almost always offload the 'other side' that you don't want to recoup some of your money back. If you don't want to play Adeptus Astartes or Necrons, you will almost definitely want to look into Combat Patrol boxes - with a few exceptions.

*Due to how GW uses the same Astartes models across several different Chapters that all play very differently, some of the models will not be suited to the Chapter of Space Marines that you might want to play. Be wary. When buying the starter sets, they really lend themselves towards playing:

- White Scars
- Space Wolves
- Black Templars
- Blood Angels / Flesh Tearers
And are non-specifically 'just okay' when playing with:

- Iron Hands
- Salamanders
- Raven Guard
- Deathwatch
Generally, you'll want to outright avoid buying the starter sets if you play:

- Dark Angels
- Imperial- or Crimson Fists
- Ultramarines (yes really)

However, just having models, isn't really enough to play the game. The Core Rules are free and/or downloadable. But the 'main game' is found outside the Core Rules, which means that you're likely going to need to pick up a Rulebook at some point. Unfortunately, only the Command Edition starter comes stock with a Rulebook. So, if you don't end up getting the Command Edition, you'll probably want to spend even more money grabbing a Rulebook, too.

Also, you'll need Terrain. If you don't have terrain on the board, the game vastly swings to playing a certain way, and all other units that don't play that way, are terrible... You don't want that. The Command Edition comes with some not-very-good terrain - but at least it's a start to making your board not just a flat surface.

Additional Resources that you will want:
Battlescribe. Battlescribe is a free App for Mobile and PC (however, you can pay for it to remove ads). It's incredibly useful as it contains all the rules for all your units - including points costs. This greatly increases your ability to play the Matched Play version of 40K, as all's you need to do is plug the units you have, into the App, and you get given an army list complete with rules. However, do be aware that in the real world, when playing a real game, most people don't want to read rules from your phone - however, running it from a tablet, or printing it out, is almost always accepted. Battlescribe is for you, not for your opponents.

[Faction] Datacards. If you don't have a Codex, well, Battlescribe doesn't have rules for Stratagems. Your Faction's Datacards provide all the rules you need to run your chosen Factions' Stratagems and Psychic Powers. However, do be aware that it's really simple to just make your own, as well as print out cards with reminders for all your Characters' abilities that you might forget.

Open War Mission Pack. Open War is exceptionally useful for newer players as it gives you rules for Missions you can play, without having to buy the rulebook. Because of the random nature of the cards - like Maelstrom - you can have a variety of experiences depending on how the cards draw. The rules for Open War also allow for what happens when player has more Points or higher Power Rating than their opponent. Which can sometimes act as a balancing factor. However, those 'extra rules' can be very swingy depending on the units or army you have, so the better idea is to simply try and even out the points costs and ignore those rules. :smallamused:
While Open War cards aren't required to play the game (GW offers the Core Rules for free), they will give you a decent experience of the game until you can get your hands on the rulebook and/or the most current edition of Chapter Approved.

Spin-down Dice. What? :smallconfused: Okay, Magic: The Gathering (and others, but M:TG is the most obvious) produces spin-down d20s. These are d20s where the numbered sides are consecutively next to each other, which makes them incredibly useful as Wound counters, Victory Point and Command Point trackers, additionally, they can't be accidentally picked up when you need more d6s to roll. They come in several different colours, just in case. GW themselves, sells 'Wound Trackers', but, they are in fact, just regular d10s and not quite what you want.

...Points? ...Power Rating? What's the difference?
Both units of measurement are ways of keeping the game balanced. If one player's army is vastly superior to their opponent's, that's not a very fair game, is it? If you think that you're just going to 'put down everything you have on the table', well, that might work for smaller games. But once you get larger collections, what you have, and what your opponent has, may be very different collections and just...No.

Power Rating. Power Rating is the easiest method to play the game. Your unit is always Rated the same, regardless of what wargear it has. Whether your model has a Chainsword, or Thunder Hammer, still costs the same. This makes it incredibly easy to make army lists because you just put down your unit without regards to wargear. However, if everything costs the same, then the Good Stuff, costs exactly the same as the Bad Stuff, so why isn't everyone taking the Good Stuff all the time? Power Rating is incredibly abusable and all's it takes it a slight desire to start winning games and then the whole thing is ruined.

Points.; Points are exclusively found in your Factions' Codecies, Chapter Approveds (and Battlescribe). The way this works, is that everything has a points cost - even wargear. This means that Bad Stuff costs less points, whilst Good Stuff, costs more points. So, if you - or your opponents - want to start winning games, they're even further limited in what they can take. This is vastly more fair than using Power Rating to decide how to build your army. You're going to want to pick up the most recent edition of Chapter Approved, which GW releases annually. Which is the downside. In order to keep it fair, points need to keep being re-balanced. :smallfrown:

So, what's a good start then?
Stater Editions

- Recruit Edition.
- Elite/Command Edition.

Start Collecting!s and Combat Patrols
[COLOR="#FF0000"]To be updated.

SC! - Astra Militarum. Not good.
SC! - Militarum Tempestus. Good.
SC! - Adeptus Mechanicus. Fine.
CP - Blood Angels. Good. Even for non-Blood Angels.
CP - Deathwatch. Decent...But not for Deathwatch.
CP - Space Wolves. Decent...Even for non Space Wolves.
SC! - Space Marines. Very bad.
SC! - Vanguard Space Marines. Decent.

SC! - Chaos Space Marines. Decent.
SC! - Daemons of Khorne. Fine.
SC! - Daemons of Nurgle. Good.
SC! - Daemons of Slaanesh. Good.
SC! - Daemons of Tzeentch. Fine.
SC! - Thousand Sons. Good.

SC! - Craftworlds. Bad.
SC! - Drukharii. Not good.
SC! - Genestealer Cults. Fine.
SC! - Orks. Fine.
SC! - T'au Empire. Good...For T'au.
SC! - Tyranids. Good.

Terrain - you mentioned it before. Talk about it, now.
Terrain...Is good. It slows down Melee armies from destroying you on Turn 1 or 2, and it increases your defense against Shooting attacks so you don't automatically lose on Turn 1 against a gunline. Wargaming terrain is an extremely fun hobby project where you can find hundreds of tutorials online to scratch-build almost anything you want. If you want to be even more creative than that, you can even theme your terrain to your army!

A good rule of thumb is that anywhere between 33% and 50% of your table space should be covered in terrain.

Not only that, but you'll also want (trust us) terrain with the Obscuring and Dense terrain rules (in the Core Rulebook). It's also a good idea to create terrain that partially blocks Line of Sight. That is, some of the terrain, you can't see through, but other parts, you can. A good example of this might be a shelled-out Ruin. Where the foundations of the Building are intact, and thus, built like a wall. While the upper levels of the Building have been hit by explosive attacks like an air raid, and thus the walls are not so intact and you can see through them.

If your community has a gaming hub (such as a gaming store, or club), if those places are any good, they should have enough terrain for all of their gaming tables, and you don't really need to worry about this. If your local hub doesn't have enough terrain for its tables - or its terrain is just...Bad, and for example, doesn't block LoS - see if you can get involved in your community and organise a terrain building hobby day, or a challenge month or something, where terrain made is donated to the hub. More, better and diverse terrain in your hub benefits everybody, and your community manager should be on board for such an idea.

Obviously, you can simply just buy Games Workshop terrain. But then you kind of only get to use what they can sell you, and it gets very expensive. If that's what you want, well, it's less work than making your own terrain, that's for sure.

I've heard about Crusade. What's that about?
Crusade is a way of 'gamifying' how you build and progress your army, as you play more and more games. This keeps you invested in the idea of playing games, and staying in the hobby. The idea that you have or will develop a personal stake in your army and your collection, will make it less likely for you to abandon the hobby, as opposed to playing a few games and then quitting once you get bored and/or lose your first few games and realise that the game/hobby isn't for you.

Pros. You develop a personal attachment to your army, as the Crusade format uses RPG-like mechanics to drive the impression that you are collecting and building your army.

Cons. There are strict zero-sum rules in how you can build your collection. Sometimes this might feel like you have no control over what you buy, because you'll only be allowed to use what the format lets you use.

This is so expensive!
...It is. You'll be wanting to make sure that you get a lot of games and get the most out of your hobby that you possibly can. Sorry. There's just no way around it.

Wait...So you weren't kidding, there actually is 'Bad Stuff' in the game?
Unfortunately...Yes. The good news is, what's bad or good, depends on your meta. It's always useful to check out what other players are playing, and build to your meta.

Build to my meta?
What works for someone on the other side of the world, or Hell, just 200kms north of you, might not work for you, because their local meta, is different to yours. The only person who truly knows what you need to buy for your army, is you, and you only learn that, by talking and engaging with your other local players. Of course, you can build to the meta, and run some or all of the best units in the game. But, if your meta is even slightly reasonable, there's a good chance that you don't need - or probably even want - to run the best units in the game because your opponents don't play their armies that way.
...But, of course, they might, too.

So what am I here for?
Other perspectives and opinions. A lot of people play the game a certain way that they enjoy - it's a hobby, after all. That means that even if you talk to people in your meta, the advice you get given will only be relevant to their skill ceiling and knowledge base. If no-one in your meta plays Necrons, it's probably fair to say that not many people in your meta have experience playing with or against Necrons, and thus, their advice will be limited. There's a chance that you could ask everyone in your meta for advice, and get no helpful directions.

It's also pretty fair that if you ask your opponents how to beat them, they're not going to tell you - why would they? It's also pretty fair that if you're asking your local store manager how to build an army, that your manager will make recommendations that end up with you spending the most money possible. It's a ****ty thing to do, but it is realistic.

Mostly, the internet is for looking for competitive advice. If you are looking to win games, the internet will tell you how. Mostly, the internet will talk about the meta. That is, objectively, there are units in the game that are more suited to playing to the win conditions of the game, than other units. Internet discussion usually revolves around either taking those units, or taking units that counter those units, sometimes with a third 'meta-buster' build that is reasonably good against the unit and counter-unit.

Now, if your meta, doesn't have people running those units, then talking about the meta, only goes so far. However, even taking 'sub-optimal' units, can still win games. A unit that's rated 8/10 is still pretty good, even if it's not 'the best' and will still cause problems given the chance.

If you're having fun, playing what you want to play...Then talk about that.

So can I take sub-optimal units that I like the look of, and still win games?
That's the elephant in the room...And the answer, at best, is only 'Maybe.'

If having fun and doing hobby is what you care about, no-one can tell you how to have fun. No-one can tell you not to have fun - especially if you don't know them 'cause they're some dude on the internet and who cares what they think anyway? If you're having fun doing whatever it is you're doing, then you keep doing it. If, by some miracle, you're winning games while also taking like, units rated 5/10, 4/10 or worse, then who cares? You're playing with models you want, and you're winning games. Keep doing exactly what you're doing.

If the units or models you like are Not Good, and potentially contributing to you losing every game - and that matters to you. Well, that sucks. The units you like, are bad, they don't perform, and you have to buy new models. What you have doesn't work, you should probably replace it. Or, at the very least start cutting up the models you do have and start giving them new wargear. Everyone understands that this feeling sucks, and it sucks even harder that you've potentially wasted a lot of money. That's why making sure you know what you want to buy, before you buy it, is so important. That being said, GW can just nerf what you like into the ground and then what do you do?

At the end of the day, the important point you should know is that 'I want to have fun,' and 'I want to have fun...And win games,' are quite often different conversations.

So, are some Factions are better overall than others?
Again, the answer is 'maybe', or 'kind of' or 'it depends'. Any Faction can win games, provided that the player takes the right units, in the right combination, and then makes the right choices during the game. No matter who your opponents are, the rules and win conditions of the game, are still the same. Any given unit is be more- or less-suited to winning games than any other unit. Which means there are definitely some sub-optimal and outright wrong choices you can make, when making your army.

Factions aren't bad. Units are bad. Many bad units in combination, make a bad army. But that doesn't mean the Faction is bad, necessarily. It just means that in any given Codex or Supplement, the Faction might have less 'good units' in it, than another Faction, which means that in order to win games - or sometimes even play games to a reasonable standard - your army must include a number of specific options and choices.

The more 'must-have' and 'auto-include' units your Faction has, the worse it is, as you - the player - are given less choices and less agency in what goes into your army. If your meta is full of people who are playing cutting edge, top of the meta lists, there's a pretty good chance that you wont be able to just put down any unit you like and still have a good game...And that sucks.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20355942&postcount=1425). :smallwink:

Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

WarhammerTV (YouTube) has several beginner guides on how to paint almost any model that GW sells. Other YouTube channels also do painting tutorials, there are a whole bunch of blogs that also occasionally talk about how they painted their models. If you want to learn how to paint something specific, there's almost definitely a guide for it, somewhere.

If you want to get better at painting, full stop:
a) Make sure you have different sized paint brushes for different tasks - not every brush is useful, all the time.
b) Develop your fine motor skills. It takes practice. You wont be good at it for a while. Don't worry about bad paint jobs. When you get better, just strip them.

GW also has a Contrast Paint range, which is very helpful for getting people who don't want to paint, to paint. If painting for you is too hard, or too time-consuming, then make sure to look those up. Though, there are a number of stories where at the higher end of the painting scale, when you start getting good, Contrast Paints don't actually save you time, and are harder to use than normal paints (e.g; Once you learn drybrushing, it is both quicker and easier than Contrast).

Here are a number of Guides put together by the GitP 40K Community...

Helpful Army Building Guides
Guides to Space Marines (Adeptus Astartes):
Detachment and Army Abilities (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24754686&postcount=43) - Core Units and Characters (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24759254&postcount=51) - Non-Core Units (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24785891&postcount=222)
[indent]- Ultramarines (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24795493&postcount=281) - Rapid Fire and Assault weapons
- White Scars (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24842379&postcount=639) - Melee and Assault weapons, favours Bikes, but not really.
- Iron Hands (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24850246&postcount=682) - Heavy weapons, favours Vehicles, but not really.
- Deathwatch (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24790280&postcount=239) - Anything you want
- Blood Angels (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24848515&postcount=679) - Melee weapons, favours Jump Packs.

Crusade Guides

- The 'basics' of building your Roster (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24829270&postcount=500)
- Playing a Mission (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24827698&postcount=494)
- Guide to Adeptus Astartes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24833494&postcount=531)

All of the following use 8th Ed. books, but are currently out of date.
Adeptus Custodes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23089844&postcount=368) Out of date
Adeptus Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23212682&postcount=799) Out of date
Astra Militarum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23229442&postcount=860) by LeSwordfish Out of date
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22323358&postcount=680) by LeSwordfish Out of date
Craftworlds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23102387&postcount=394) by Forum Explorer Out of date
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22682254&postcount=1287) Out of date
Death Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425277&postcount=1268) by LeSwordfish Out of date
Drukhari (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22979092&postcount=1056) by Gauntlet Out of date
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22290159&postcount=518) Out of date
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22958139&postcount=936) by Requizen Out of date
Thousand Sons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23838843&postcount=1174) by Wraith Out of date

Index: Inquisition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24261426&postcount=1199) (White Dwarf, Nov '19) Out of date
Index: Officio Assassinorum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23783027&postcount=880) (White Dwarf, Mar '19) Out of date
Index: Sisters of Silence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24262771&postcount=1226) (White Dwarf, Oct '19) Out of date

Previous conversations to search through...

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388399-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXII-I-C-Tan-Has-Cheese#post18535364)
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411374-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIII-I-Do-Not-Like-Green-Tides-and-Hann)
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444969-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIV-And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fluff&p=19863366&viewfull=1#post19863366)
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476885-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXV-Friends-Are-Better-Than-Wraithknights)
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503224-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVII-Tyranids-Finally-Found-A-Friend)
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509492-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVIII-Drasius-Can-t-Have-Nice-Things)
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517336-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIX-Ro-Ro-Ro-Your-Boute)
* XXX: Imperium After Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525424-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXX-Imperium-After-Dark)
* XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530992-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXI-Haters-Gonna-Burn)
* XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538281-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXII-I-Got-99-Guardsmen-and-Morale-Killed-One)
* XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546769-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIII-Only-in-Nerf-Does-Duty-End)
* XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557261-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIV-Situation-Normal-All-FAQ-d-Up)
* XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568998-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXV-4-Pages-of-Rules-46-Pages-of-Pointless-Bickering)
* XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578886-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXVI-If-it-Ain-t-Broke-Nerf-It)
* XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588288-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXVII-Highlighting-the-Contrasts)
* XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?596582-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXVIII-toy-soldiers-r-srs-bsns)
* XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?603545-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIX-Miracle-on-39th-Thread#post24280603)
* XL: Bloated Rules (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613934-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XL-Bloated-Rules)
* XLI: Secondary Opinions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620450-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XLI-Secondary-Opinions)
* Thread XLII: The Dice Makes Fools of Us All (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?629246-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XLII-The-Dice-Make-Fools-of-Us-All)


Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22597012&postcount=924) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

PLEASE NOTE: Blue Text (for sarcasm) is typically not in play in this thread, because pretty much all of it is sarcasm and/or petty whining about toy soldiers. It's all meant in good humour and none of it should be taken seriously, so please feel free to join in with the banter. :smallsmile:

Last time on 40k-in-the-Playground
Games Workshop initiates a price hike, and everyone hates it... except maybe the Australians, since now *everyone* gets to pay the same prices that they have for the last decade, and more.
Toy Soldiers Is Serious Business - Maybe we did take that "Aeldari players are heartless monsters" joke a little bit too far....
Codex Tyranids (9th) has just been announced. The FO chart has a much-needed update, a fan-favourite character makes its table-top debut, and even though we all like Ravenors NO-ONE has admitted to having bought any.


We now return to your regularly scheduled grim-darkness.

[LeSwordfish]

I think 40k isn't in danger of ending up in a Mortal Wounds Meta - AOS has far more of them, and far greater access to easy +1 to save. It also has less super-high damage (railguns etc) but has more mid-level damage, with greater access to 5-6ish damage attacks. There's a few things that skew badly in a Mortal Wounds direction (Sentinels, for example) but a lot of the really damaging things go through the normal process, and a lot of the really tough things have protections that work just as well against normal wounds (Morathi, who has a Ghazgkull-esque maximum wounds per phase rule, for example).

[Cheesegear]

It's all meant in good humour and none of it should be taken seriously, so please feel free to join in with the banter. :smallsmile:

Should I be reading into the fact that this is written in blue?


Games Workshop initiates a price hike, and everyone hates it... except maybe the Australians, since now *everyone* gets to pay the same prices that they have for the last decade, and more.

Well we don't hate it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.


Toy Soldiers Is Serious Business

One time I was freaking the **** out. Something like 12 posts in the space of a few hours after being triggered by...Somebody. If I'm getting the date right it was probably towards 6th Ed. Somebody else told me that instead of freaking out over the internet, I should maybe talk to my partner and go out for dinner, and have...Relationships. Toy soldiers are not, in fact, serious business, and the internet is not real life. How 'bout instead of being mad...Just don't?

This forum taught me that. 40K-in-the-Playground. Learning life lessons through toy soldiers.


even though we all like Ravenors NO-ONE has admitted to having bought any.

I lol'd.

I brought it up at the end of the last thread, making a point to remember to bring it up again...


We now return to your regularly scheduled grim-darkness.

...Which is what, exactly?

Commenting on WarCom articles is fine...Up to a point. Sometimes they spend 400 words saying nothing at all (and that's coming from me), and other times they're blatantly shilling because it's literally what it's for, and other times the only thing that can be said about some rules leak intentional advertisement, is that 'We can't comment in good faith until we know more - usually the points cost.' So I don't really like reading WarCom and I'll just address whatever happens, when it actually happens...And I'll leave the free audience shilling hype train to someone else...Unless I'm really interested (e.g; The Parasite of Mortrex looking a bit too bonkers and I don't like it, despite the unique mechanics.)

I've expressed that I don't particularly like writing Guides anymore. Not because they take a long time to write (but I know that they definitely do, for others). But I don't like putting in effort to something I know will be made a waste of in only a handful of months...And no I'm not responsible enough to remember to go back and edit stuff that changes. So yeah. I'm happy to give out army building advice...But really, with the price hike and the pandemic it just doesn't look like people are even building that many armies anymore - probably because they're not playing games. Perhaps more accurately, anyone who's still in the hobby at this point already knows what they want before they buy it and they don't need my help.

Writing battle reports, on my end, just feels boring. Tactics in 40K...Tend to be...Fixed. You build your army around Secondary Objectives, and you take the same Secondaries every single game - maybe you switch one out, but it's the for the same one you always sub out for. You can pick your Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers, so there's no randomness there, and due to how...Simplified...The game is now (if you're still playing, of course), the tactics aren't particularly brilliant; Use small arms fire to shoot small things. Use Heavy weapons to shoot big things. I've been playing 9th Ed. for a while now (my region had one lockdown that actually only lasted the promised two weeks); And I don't know what it is. Do I know too much about the game? Have I been playing for so long now that rolling triple-1s on my 2+ Armour Save, whilst rare, has statistically happened often enough that those unexpected/surprising moments are now...Boring?

Baby-Cheesegear, circa 5th Ed.; *Looks directly into the camera, makes a shocked face for the YouTube thumbnail. Freaks out puts hands in the air. Acquire Twitch Subs for 'genuine reaction.'*

Grognard-Cheesegear, circa now; {Monotone} Yep. Sure looks like Guilliman just died. That'll happen. 400-odd Points down the drain. What does 'react harder' even mean? Am I supposed to care? Doesn't this happen all the time?

Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. Writing about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.

[LeSwordfish]

Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. Writing about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.

A serious question: are you enjoying 40k, or are you enjoying, like, competitive sociability? How does time spent playing 40k, for you, compare to the same sort of game of Crisis Protocol or Kill Team or whatever else it is you play?

[Wraith]

Should I be reading into the fact that this is written in blue?

Absolutely not. Subtlety is for cowards.


Well we don't hate it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.

I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years and justifiably go, "This hasn't been great, we need to fix it somehow"; Business reasons, social reasons, supply/demand reasons, whatever, and the answer "Because we're a***holes and we hate you" doesn't even make the top 20.

But I don't like it. I don't like paying more money for anything, much. Monkey-brain wants to keep the shiny pebbles AND have all the bananas at the same time. The important thing to remember is the difference between monkey-brain and a constructive conversation.


...Which is what, exactly?

If you haven't come to the internet just to argue with idiot strangers purely for the sake of arguing, I can't help you. :smallwink:


I'll leave the free audience shilling hype train to someone else...Unless I'm really interested (e.g; The Parasite of Mortrex looking a bit too bonkers and I don't like it, despite the unique mechanics.)

I've expressed that I don't particularly like writing Guides anymore. Not because they take a long time to write (but I know that they definitely do, for others). But I don't like putting in effort to something I know will be made a waste of in only a handful of months...

Dunno. Weird. The games themselves are fun enough. Writing about them, however, seems formulaic at this point.

Playing games and writing about games are different parts of the hobby, and you're not required to enjoy all of them - playing/writing is the same as collecting/painting and painting/playing. Similarly, no one is required to stick with any one thing indefinitely. The GitP guides are fun and I enjoy reading them, even for factions that I know I have no interest in playing with and will never play against, because I know that the people who were (hopefully) writing them are doing so out of enthusiasm.

I, for example, like writing about 40k. That's why I'm such a pain in the butt in the 40k Lore thread, whenever we have one, even though I haven't read the last ~10 Horus Heresy novels and I'm out of the loop. I'm quite happy to write a guide when the mood strikes me and I don't mind so much when a new edition comes out and my 'hard work' is lost; I'm just typing a post on a forum, after all, not carving my philosophy into granite slabs for perpetuity.

I wrote a guide, and then when it becomes obsolete due to an edition change, I get to write another one. Yay for me! I'll take that over spending my time watching yet more friggin' cookery shows and other reality TV nonsense.

[Cheesegear]

I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years...

Their stock began to tank just before Christmas - and by 'tank', I mean, 'revert back to ~pre-2020.'

The pandemic, arguably, was the best thing that happened to GW in a long, long time. It's only after the pandemic is [not-officially over], that GW has begun to see...Bad Not-as-good times, as people start going back to work and hanging out with their friends on a regular basis.

Also, something, something; Emergent technology that makes your core manufacturing business obsolete.


"Because we're a***holes and we hate you"

Again, considering how GW was lauding their own massive stock inflation during 2020-21, I can't help but feel that the free market is more-or-less self-correcting. Whether or not the free market is actually 'free' (especially in the US, where I am not...), well, that's a conversation that has nothing to do with toy soldiers, so let's not worry about it.


If you haven't come to the internet just to argue with idiot strangers purely for the sake of arguing, I can't help you.

This is one of those things. It reads like it should be written in blue text. But also how is it sarcasm when it's factually true? :smallwink:


I, for example, like writing about 40k.

Me too... That might be why I do it. :smallwink:


I wrote a guide, and then when it becomes obsolete due to an edition change

See, if it became obsolete over an edition change once every 7 5 3 2 (?) years I'd be okay with that.
The problem is that they become obsolete in less than six months. Less than three, in some cases.


I'll take that over spending my time watching yet more friggin' cookery shows and other reality TV nonsense.

What?
1. Your partner wants to watch TV. Something terrible that is terrible.
2. You say 'okay' and sit on couch with laptop.
3. Pointlessly argue with strangers online.
4. Occasionally look up at the TV and/or your partner - especially when they're addressing you.
5. Agree with everything your partner says, throw in a 'Did she really just do that!?' every now and then. Bonus points if you throw in a 'That's craaazyyy...'
???
7. Profit.

Another life lesson in a thread about toy soldiers. :smallcool:
(Again, is the above sarcasm, or something that is absurd, but also factually true? ...We'll never know.)

[Dragonus45]

I think 40k isn't in danger of ending up in a Mortal Wounds Meta - AOS has far more of them, and far greater access to easy +1 to save. It also has less super-high damage (railguns etc) but has more mid-level damage, with greater access to 5-6ish damage attacks. There's a few things that skew badly in a Mortal Wounds direction (Sentinels, for example) but a lot of the really damaging things go through the normal process, and a lot of the really tough things have protections that work just as well against normal wounds (Morathi, who has a Ghazgkull-esque maximum wounds per phase rule, for example).

Not yet, but I worry about it moving more and more towards that.

[Cheesegear]

Not yet, but I worry about it moving more and more towards that.

I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, how? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds in the opponent's turn, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.

I worry that if they do it once, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.

[Requizen]

I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, how? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds.

This is always a treacherous thing. Rock-Paper-Scissors balancing seems good in concept since the factions keep themselves in balance... but it feels really crappy being Scissors when Rock is popular in the meta and Paper just got so nerfed that they aren't even seeing the table. And even in metagames with perfect balance, getting matchup hard-countered just because your army does Scissors and your opponent plays Rock, and you randomly play together, still feels terrible.

[Forum Explorer]

I understand why GW have hiked their prices - I could give you a list of reasons as to why any company could look at the last two years and justifiably go, "This hasn't been great, we need to fix it somehow"; Business reasons, social reasons, supply/demand reasons, whatever, and the answer "Because we're a***holes and we hate you" doesn't even make the top 20.

But I don't like it. I don't like paying more money for anything, much. Monkey-brain wants to keep the shiny pebbles AND have all the bananas at the same time. The important thing to remember is the difference between monkey-brain and a constructive conversation.


The big question is why should I pay those prices? I have an alternative. Multiple of them honestly. I can pay less without any issues, and use those savings to buy something else from my local gamestore to support it. So what is my motive, as a consumer to support GW?


I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, how? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds in the opponent's turn, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.

I worry that if they do it once, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.

AP 2/3 weapons. Multi damage is good, but not, actually, necessary. Honestly, weight of shots is more important. Really, with their ability to shrug mortal wounds, AP 2/3 basically is mortal wounds against Custodes. Then the ability to inflict Fight Last, minus damage, and good vehicles work out well. Though Mortal Wounds does become viable if you aren't up against Emperor's Champs. But that's the best faction for Custodes into everyone but Custodes, so I just kinda assume most Custodes are running Emperor's Champs.

Admittedly, Space Marines probably struggle the most with this. I think running triple Dreadnaughts (I think Venerables with Twin Lascannon is the best of your options, but maybe an Ironclad for counter charge? And the Heavy Plasma cannon is free...), and maybe it's worth taking a look at Grav-cannons again? Only S5 makes me think it's a bad pick, but you can put them in drop pods for a guaranteed turn of shooting.

Regardless, you want things that can fight in melee, but still have decent to good shooting, hit well naturally since you can't depend on rerolls, and good AP/damage. So Venerable Dreadnaughts. But Space Marine troops are aggressively overcosted, and are actually pretty terrible these days. 2 Wounds means a lot less now that damage 2 is everywhere, and the AP 1 that Space Marines have to pay for (by taking Intercessors) is free in pretty much every other army barring Sisters.

Which actually raises a question, what's better?

5 Intercessors
or
5 Tactical Marines with a Heavy Bolter/Grav-cannon

They are the same points, but for something I'd want just sitting back and holding objectives I think the heavy weapon might actually be better. It certainly is better against Custodes.

Still being forced to drop ~300 points into what I think you can honestly call the worst troop choice in 9th edition is a pretty harsh tax.


On a side note, why don't I ever see Blood Angels taking Librarian Dreadnaughts?

[LeSwordfish]

I suspect that the Tyranids and Chaos Marines will have good access to Mortal Wounds just because of their assorted wierd gribbliness, but don't know if that'll be a long-term effect. Tau, for example, have very little Mortal Wound output, aside from rail weapons.

[Forum Explorer]

I suspect that the Tyranids and Chaos Marines will have good access to Mortal Wounds just because of their assorted wierd gribbliness, but don't know if that'll be a long-term effect. Tau, for example, have very little Mortal Wound output, aside from rail weapons.

Funny enough, Tau is actually one of Custodes worst match ups, since while Tau might not have mortal wounds, they do have an absolute ton of AP-3 shots at high Strength and Damage 3 or greater.

[Hootman]

See, if it became obsolete over an edition change once every 7 5 3 2 (?) years I'd be okay with that.
The problem is that they become obsolete in less than six months. Less than three, in some cases.
The Ork guide I tried to write became obsolete as I was writing it, which was really disheartening. At some point in my revisions, I just ran of out gas, and couldn't work up the energy to continue.


On a side note, why don't I ever see Blood Angels taking Librarian Dreadnaughts?
Probably because it's lame now, by my reading (of an online resource, since I don't have the book). They don't appear to have any shooting that's worth having, and their melee attacks don't let them use the cool halberd more than once. You get two powers from a discipline that seems...lackluster? Like, a flying dreadnought is still awesome, but the other powers seem largely unhelpful to me. At least, from a self-buff angle. No good attack spells to have as alternatives to just using Smite, and the best powers look to be giving a unit a 5++ (which is fine, but boring) and giving a unit 'extra melee hit on 6s', which you'll only get mileage out of on a unit with way more attacks than the Dread has itself.

Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.

...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.

[Blackhawk748]

I worry that Custodes present an nigh-insurmountable problem that can only be solved via Mortal Wounds. Custodes are 'totally beatable', which is true...Okay, how? The how is important. Because then you have to start looking in toolboxes and you're going to find Factions with toolboxes that are half-empty.

I worry that in order to power creep against Custodes, GW will have to release a unit or Faction that spams Mortal Wounds. Certainly, Parasite's ability to do Mortal Wounds in the opponent's turn, as well as turn off Objective Secured, is almost a direct counter to Custodes' Troops units, which prove to be (un)surprisingly good, even in the Troops slot. I would very much like to know the Parasite's points cost, and what if anything in the Tyranids book synergises with it - and how hard. Because if it's good against Custodes...It's probably good against everything, else, too.

I worry that if they do it once, they'll continue to do it more. But, it depends what - if any - lesson(s) they learned from AoS.

The old school "Drown them in bullets strategy?" Then again I play Ad Mech for the most part nowadays so pretty much all solutions are "Drown them in Rad Rounds"

And I would be too considering where AoS went and how GW tends to balance things. Will they? I don't know, maybe they'll just do Ad Mech 2.0 and we'll have some stupidly efficient gun blobs again.


This is always a treacherous thing. Rock-Paper-Scissors balancing seems good in concept since the factions keep themselves in balance... but it feels really crappy being Scissors when Rock is popular in the meta and Paper just got so nerfed that they aren't even seeing the table. And even in metagames with perfect balance, getting matchup hard-countered just because your army does Scissors and your opponent plays Rock, and you randomly play together, still feels terrible.

RPS balancing works when every faction has a Rock, a Scissors and a Paper component to the army, even if they skew more heavily in one direction. That way you can at least adjust, in theory, in list building to properly compensate. Does it always work? No, and GW is very, very bad at it.



...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.

We're Orks, we don't get nice things. And when we do they take them away. Yes Im still salty about Flash Gitz losing their 4+ armor why do you ask?

[Brookshw]

T

What?
1. Your partner wants to watch TV. Something terrible that is terrible.
2. You say 'okay' and sit on couch with laptop.
3. Pointlessly argue with strangers online.
4. Occasionally look up at the TV and/or your partner - especially when they're addressing you.
5. Agree with everything your partner says, throw in a 'Did she really just do that!?' every now and then. Bonus points if you throw in a 'That's craaazyyy...'
???
7. Profit.

Another life lesson in a thread about toy soldiers. :smallcool:
(Again, is the above sarcasm, or something that is absurd, but also factually true? ...We'll never know.)

Alternatively, sit next to them and paint your army, works well 9 out of 10 times.

[Cheesegear]

The old school "Drown them in bullets strategy?" Then again I play Ad Mech for the most part nowadays so pretty much all solutions are "Drown them in Rad Rounds"

AdMech is actually a great example of Guides being totally useless.

GW released AdMech. It was crazy good. Like, actually too good. Nerfed in less than a month of release - I think they might've even been nerfed twice.


Alternatively, sit next to them and paint your army, works well 9 out of 10 times.

...And that 10th time, nothing you do is going to matter. :smallwink:

[Hootman]

We're Orks, we don't get nice things. And when we do they take them away. Yes Im still salty about Flash Gitz losing their 4+ armor why do you ask?
Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.

If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.

[Forum Explorer]

Probably because it's lame now, by my reading (of an online resource, since I don't have the book). They don't appear to have any shooting that's worth having, and their melee attacks don't let them use the cool halberd more than once. You get two powers from a discipline that seems...lackluster? Like, a flying dreadnought is still awesome, but the other powers seem largely unhelpful to me. At least, from a self-buff angle. No good attack spells to have as alternatives to just using Smite, and the best powers look to be giving a unit a 5++ (which is fine, but boring) and giving a unit 'extra melee hit on 6s', which you'll only get mileage out of on a unit with way more attacks than the Dread has itself.

Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.

...Why don't Orks have multiple fancy dreads? Or just...ones with unique and interesting weapons? This is a travesty.

I mean, 4 attacks base (+1 for the fancy halberd), 5 attacks first round of combat, 6 attacks in the Assault Doctrine, and you can cast the Quicking on themselves for and extra D3 attacks. For a max of 9 attacks with +1 for the halberd. That seems pretty good to me.


Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.

If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.

They should still have their 4+ save.

[hamishspence]

Which is a total shame. Part of the reason I played Blood Angels back in 5th was the Librarian Dread, which was the coolest model I owned, give or take a kitbash. Or my Ironclad, actually.


One of the things I like about 9e Space Marine codex and supplements system is that it dropped a lot of the "restrict certain units" limitations. Now, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, can take Ironclads, when they couldn't before.

Some units, like the Librarian Dreadnought, are still restricted (Librarian Dread is still Blood Angels & Their Successors only)

[Cheesegear]

I mean, 4 attacks base (+1 for the fancy halberd), 5 attacks first round of combat, 6 attacks in the Assault Doctrine, and you can cast the Quicking on themselves for and extra D3 attacks. For a max of 9 attacks with +1 for the halberd. That seems pretty good to me.

As usual, the problem isn't necessarily the model itself. The problem is the internal balance of the Codex being all kinds of wonky, that even the good things, don't get a look at, because other things are Just Better at the same job.

You're an Aeldari player. You know as well as I do that the Avatar, for the last several editions, has never actually been bad. There's nothing wrong with it.

Statement 1. It synergises with Guardian blobs, it has Ignore Wounds (5+), and you can re-roll Charges which also synergises with a few Aspect Warrior units, as well. And, yes, an Avatar can stomp it's way up the board because it only has 8 Wounds so it can't even be targeted. The Avatar of Khaine is quite good.

Statement 2. The Avatar is 'Not a Farseer', the Avatar can't ride in a Transport with Aspect Warriors. The Avatar doesn't have Path of Command. The Avatar is in fact, actual garbage.

Both are true. But Statement 2 is more true.

The Librarian Dread is in the same boat as the Avatar. There's nothing actually overtly wrong with it. It does what it's supposed to do. The problem is why would you take a Librarian Dread when you can take...Anything else.

[Blackhawk748]

Wait. They lost their 4+ armor? I can't find anything current that says that.

If that's the case, I'll be quite irritated. Freeboota Flash Gitz was my favorite core for a list in this edition (even though they sensibly limited my Boyz from having BS2+ after a good turn). They are already really expensive and need vehicle support--I don't want to pay more for even less now.

I may be misremembering, I haven't looked in the book in a long while, I just remember them taking it away in 7th, the Edition we really needed that 4+

[Wraith]

The big question is why should I pay those prices? I have an alternative. Multiple of them honestly. I can pay less without any issues, and use those savings to buy something else from my local gamestore to support it. So what is my motive, as a consumer to support GW?

And the answer to that question is another question: "Do you want to play 40k or AoS, or not?". Not "a game very much like 40k or AoS", but "just 40k or AoS"?

I can probably guess what your response to that is going to be. I'm just as sure you already know mine. That's fine. GW isn't interested in us. They're only interested in people whose answer is "OH GOD PLEASE YES" and no one else.

Is that sustainable, long term? I'd have said no, but I also said the same thing in 1998 when I thought the new edition was going to scare everyone away, so.... *bewildered shrug*

[Blackhawk748]

Is that sustainable, long term? I'd have said no, but I also said the same thing in 1998 when I thought the new edition was going to scare everyone away, so.... *bewildered shrug*

There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.

Mantic was smart about this and realized that people are happier if you don't get cranky about models and just make solid rules and sell those. And also decent models. At sane prices.

[Dragonus45]

There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.

Mantic was smart about this and realized that people are happier if you don't get cranky about models and just make solid rules and sell those. And also decent models. At sane prices.

Para Bellum does the same. The models could use some work but it's hard to argue with the costs, and they give away a ton of stuff too to help get the game going. Like half my 100k army was free. And they are officially super lax about proxies. I have D&D models on bases for a few things.

[Cheesegear]

The only thing you can't do [with 3rd party models] is participate in GW tournaments.

Which is the exact rule that causes piracy makes the 3D printers go brrr.

[Blackhawk748]

Which is the exact rule that causes piracy makes the 3D printers go brrr.

Oh most definitely. But I doubt GW cares at the moment.

[Cheesegear]

Oh most definitely. But I doubt GW cares at the moment.

Give the customer:
- What they want,
- When they want,
- At a price that they can afford.

If you can't do one of those things (for whatever reason), you're going to get cheap knock-offs in the market at best, and outright piracy at worst.

We saw this back during the inception of Netflix. People paid <$10 or whatever, and got whatever they wanted. Piracy went down - globally.

Now? In 202x, we see companies take their stuff off of Netflix, and create their own streaming service. Everyone wants a piece of that pie.
But the consumers can't bear that.
So instead, they start picking and choosing which streaming services they can afford that give them what they want.
Then, because of the fracturing of the market, everyone raises their prices in order to gouge the piece of the market they do have.

Piracy goes back up, because of the streaming wars.
'No, but...Streaming makes piracy go down...' Yeah...When you gave the customer everything they wanted at a price when they could afford it. When you don't give the customer what they want, and a price that they also can't afford...You've lost the game.

This is what happened.
I don't know anyone who was saying that 8th Ed. was broken. There were very minor problems, specifically regarding high-model-count armies. But that was the only problem in the game, and ITC did find a solution to that problem. Nobody wanted 8th Ed. to change.

GW removed the game that people wanted, and replaced it with 9th Ed., then did a price hike. Two of the three things you absolutely should not do if you're worried about piracy. Then of course, shipping across the world took a severe nose dive for obvious reasons - the Suez Canal was even blocked for an entire week. Which means that people couldn't even get the product when they wanted it; You go the store, you pay them money, they give you product...Nope. Turns out they can't even give you the product. That's the third nail.

[Requizen]

There's also, like, A LOT more games nowadays. There's also people who buy the Rules for 40k or AoS and just use different models. The only thing you can't do is participate in GW tournaments.

This is going to be an interesting thing to watch in the next few years. There's always been a few games nipping at GW's toes - Warmahordes, Kings of War, XWing - but I've not seen anything take over my local store the way Marvel Crisis Protocol is right now. GW has often had lows where people didn't like editions or metagames, but they never really seemed to happen at a time where a game choices were this booming. I do think we're in an era where if GW drops the ball too hard, there's a lot of new places for players to scatter. And many of those games will let people use their existing toys. I'm playing some Age of Fantasy by OnePageRules tomorrow, for instance, with Sigmar stuff.

The Warhammer community (the real one, not the website) has historically been self-sustaining. People played Warhammer because other people played Warhammer, why would you play games that people weren't playing? Put the effort in to build a community around a new game? Icky, what a hassle. But a bunch of games have but out real banger starter boxes (MCP being the big one here, but ASoIaF and Star Wars Legion really pushed their starters), and other games have just embraced the mini-agnostic lifestyle, so that cycle of Warhammer propping itself up on an existing playerbase... might not be as strong as it once was. Especially after a 2 year pandemic forcing people to slow down, re-evaluate their purchases, and maybe branch out while they're momentarily broken out of their regular Warhammer routine.

Personally, I'm not looking to invest too heavily into any new systems yet, as I think there's a very strong likelyhood that Games Workshop and Warhammer in general does just keep trundling through, and MCP stutters and slows like most third party games have before it. But I'm definitely trying new things, as I said, and keeping my eye on the pulse.

That said, I do still play a lot of the GW specialist games, since they haven't managed to ruin Blood Bowl yet, Warcry is still fun, and the new Kill Team is actually a very solid Skirmish game (partially flubbed by GW pricing structure around rules and new releases). I just have no interest in either bigHammer game.

[Artanis]

And many of those games will let people use their existing toys. I'm playing some Age of Fantasy by OnePageRules tomorrow, for instance, with Sigmar stuff.

I think this is a huge factor. Even if some game comes along that is infinitely better than GW's stuff, having to spend God knows how much time and money on a whole new pile of models is going to turn everybody off. But if you're allowed to use the stuff you already have, then there's little to no barrier to entry for existing 40K/AoS players. No need to even build a big, self-sustaining playerbase to find games, you just need one other person who already plays something else and is willing to try it out with you. Like using Vassal, without all the downsides inherent to using the terrible pile of jank that is Vassal.

[Cheesegear]

This is going to be an interesting thing to watch in the next few years. There's always been a few games nipping at GW's toes - Warmahordes, Kings of War, XWing - but I've not seen anything take over my local store the way Marvel Crisis Protocol is right now.
[...]
But a bunch of games have but out real banger starter boxes (MCP being the big one here, but ASoIaF and Star Wars Legion...

One thing that's massively important to MCP and Legions that other games don't have (e.g; Frostgrave), is just-as-strong, if not stronger IP recognition than Warhammer. It's a huge draw.

Hey new kid, want to play Warhammer?
What's that?
Okay, ten thousand years ago The Emperor finished the Unification Wars, and got panicked because the Eye of Terror opened up because the Aeldari had too much sex and drugs...Okay. Start again. The Emperor is a dude who was around a few thousand years BC and he found a Chaos monument that...Okay. Chaos is...

Hey new kid, want to play Marvel Crisis Protocol?
What's that?
Ever seen one of them Marvel movies?

There's currently a fracture in my area where half the people are playing Frostgrave, and half the people are playing MCP. MCP feels a lot more accessible for some reason.

[Requizen]

I think this is a huge factor. Even if some game comes along that is infinitely better than GW's stuff, having to spend God knows how much time and money on a whole new pile of models is going to turn everybody off. But if you're allowed to use the stuff you already have, then there's little to no barrier to entry for existing 40K/AoS players. No need to even build a big, self-sustaining playerbase to find games, you just need one other person who already plays something else and is willing to try it out with you. Like using Vassal, without all the downsides inherent to using the terrible pile of jank that is Vassal.
Tabletop Simulator got a nice boost during COVID for that same reason, but I think TTS is freaking annoying to use and nowhere near a tabletop experience.


There's currently a fracture in my area where half the people are playing Frostgrave, and half the people are playing MCP. MCP feels a lot more accessible for some reason.

IP licensing is massive right now. Maybe Games Workshop will give theirs to a reasonable tabletop developer some day :smallcool:

Frost/Stargrave seems fun, but they seem more like RPGs meant to be played in campaigns more than pickup games, which I prefer. Which is also one of my main downsides to Blood Bowl - everybody wants to play leagues, when I just want to do pickup games with different teams and try strange setups.

[Forum Explorer]

One thing that's massively important to MCP and Legions that other games don't have (e.g; Frostgrave), is just-as-strong, if not stronger IP recognition than Warhammer. It's a huge draw.

Hey new kid, want to play Warhammer?
What's that?
Okay, ten thousand years ago The Emperor finished the Unification Wars, and got panicked because the Eye of Terror opened up because the Aeldari had too much sex and drugs...Okay. Start again. The Emperor is a dude who was around a few thousand years BC and he found a Chaos monument that...Okay. Chaos is...

Hey new kid, want to play Marvel Crisis Protocol?
What's that?
Ever seen one of them Marvel movies?

There's currently a fracture in my area where half the people are playing Frostgrave, and half the people are playing MCP. MCP feels a lot more accessible for some reason.

40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.

[Avaris]

40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.

Yeah… all that stuff about the Emperor and background that Cheesegear uses is interesting, but not essential to understanding the setting. It’s stuff you get to later. It’s like starting an explanation of Marvel with “ok, so there’s Iron Man, who was a billionaire and got kidnapped by a terrorist group claiming to be the Ten Rings. Hold up, the Ten Rings are a criminal organisation led by this guy with some powerful rings, but no one knows where they come from, as they’re not Eternals tech… so the Eternals are…”

One thing GW settings have really nailed is the ‘elevator pitch’ of the setting. That first paragraph of text you read. I haven’t really seen that with many other systems and settings, so the rise of stuff like MCP is interesting. Though without knowing anything much about the system, I assume it is not so easy to really feel like you’re playing with ‘my dudes’ as it is with GW characters: Iron Man is Iron Man, albeit with a choice of different suits he can be using. So similar niche, but GW etc offers stuff it doesn’t.

[Cheesegear]

40K is likely one of the best described settings with that entry blurb pretty much every rulebook has.

The setting, sure. Now explain what each Faction is, their strengths and weaknesses, and what makes them fun to play and/or why the person you're talking to, would want to play them. When someone is trying to get into the game, what do you tell them? What can you tell them, without their eyes glazing over?

MCP is great for new players who don't know what they want, because all their homework is already done, because most (?) people watch movies. Most (?) people know what an Iron Man is, what a Captain America is, just by cultural osmosis. My Dad has probably seen less than a third of the Marvel movies. I know for a fact, however, that my Dad watched The Incredible Hulk ('78) with Bill Bixby, and read Hulk comics while he was in the Air Force - he showed me his collection (it's worth nothing, I checked). The run from the '70s even introduced Wolverine. So my Dad knows who he is, too, even without the Jackman movies.

If I walked my Dad down the MCP aisle at my FLGS, I know he would recognise several characters - from comics he read 50-60 years ago - and he would already know what they're about, without having to be told, and I'm pretty sure he'd even know what they'd be good at in the game, just via name recognition and visualisation alone. My Dad knows what a MODOK is. ...In fact...Do you reckon I could get my Dad to play MCP? :smallconfused:
...Challenge accepted.

Warhammer, just isn't that culturally relevant. What's a Drukharii? What's an AdMech?

[Avaris]

Warhammer, just isn't that culturally relevant. What's a Drukharii? What's an AdMech?

Evil Space Pirate Elves and Religious Robot Scientists respectively. Neither of those are quite accurate (edit: and obviously this is harder than with MCP due to the current film run), but they get a lot of the message across. Warhammer itself isn’t especially culturally relevant (though some stuff like Space Marines are much more recognisable), but one of the strengths of the setting is that it plays on some very resonant tropes. I reckon you could probably describe most, if not all, of the factions in five words or less and give a fairly good idea of what they are like and how they are likely to play within that, just from resonance.

Edit: what is particularly important is that these come across in the models as well. If you showed someone a Drukhari model and an Ad Mech model they’d probably quickly have some idea of what the factions are about. Compare to, say, War Machine, where many of the Jacks are very similar looking to the untrained eye.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

There's still a wide variance from describing a faction as a mix of 3 different tropes, versus going "Iron Man is going to kick Venom's butt."

[Avaris]

There's still a wide variance from describing a faction as a mix of 3 different tropes, versus going "Iron Man is going to kick Venom's butt."

Oh definitely. MCP is much more resonant than Warhammer in the present cultural moment. I’m more comparing it to the other games that don’t trade on an established IP.

[LeSwordfish]

I think you can give the gist of 40k in only a few sentences, but can you make someone love it? Because they probably already love Marvel/Star Wars before you've said a single word.


How does one transform from "Marvel movie" to "tactical turn-based wargame"? So as someone who actually has no idea what Marvel Crisis Protocoll is, that description does not help me at all.

Sounds like you're thinking in mechanics terms rather than "iron man is going to kick Venom's butt".

[Requizen]

How does one transform from "Marvel movie" to "tactical unit-based wargame"? So as someone who actually has no idea what Marvel Crisis Protocoll is, that description does not help me at all.

The person who knows what Wargaming is will understand "skirmish wargame", and the person who hasn't played one will understand the appeal of having their X-Men beat up my Sinister Six. Not that difficult imo.

[Cheesegear]

No, I just cannot imagine a "Marvel" game that is similar enough to an actual wargame to spark interest in someone who wants to play a wargame.

...Well. No. A Wargame is a wargame.

However, an elephant in the room right now is that people simply don't have a lot of money. Young players especially don't have any money, and new players don't want to spend a whole lot of money up front so they actually can walk away if they don't like the experience. The elephant in the room is that large-scale wargames aren't...Accessible? Especially GW is pay-to-play (but not pay-to-win).

Skirmish games, are where it's at; On GW's front, Kill Team 3rd Ed. (?) is an attempt at this. Unfortunately the rules for it are so bad that it just...Fails. MCP's prices are a little bit silly. But given that you don't have to buy a lot to play, it's kind of okay.

[Cheesegear]

So it's not about the accessibility of Marvel fluff vs. GW fluff anymore? Because that was the initial argument.

First. Welcome to...Threads.

Second. If we're talking about accessibility, it's both. I can't make more than one point at a time? Oh, okay (again, welcome to threads).

1. Marvel is more accessible because pop-culture exists, and has existed for a long, long time, insofar as my Dad still remembers Marvel pop-culture from 60 years ago. Meanwhile, he's still calling every single Pokemon, a 'Pikachu.' Marvel pop-culture has permeated the mainstream so hard that it's easier for people to get into MCP because they're already familiar with the subject matter being displayed. Part of it is nearly a century's worth of comics. Part of it is roughly half a century of TV shows and cartoons. Part of it is almost two decades' worth of movies in recent memory. It's all of it.

'What's an AdMech? I don't understand. What's a Forge World? What has Mars got to do with anything.'

The player wanting to buy a Wolverine miniature isn't even going to ask you any questions because they already know who Wolverine is, and, mechanically, if you ask the new kid what they think Wolverine's role is in the game...I'm pretty sure they'll be able to tell you without hesitation; Melee fighter who is resistant to damage. Now, if you, as an individual can't identify Venom (who has been around for a long, long time...Including in two very successful - by pandemic standards, at least - recent movies), that might be on you. When Eminem is doing the theme song, the property is probably mainstream.

There are some people who claim - unironically - that Marvel (and DC) Comics are essentially 'modern mythology.' That's how important they've become.

Games Workshop's IP is both its strongest and weakest selling point.

2. Games Workshop products are also inaccessible for another reason; The cost, both up front and ongoing. This is a separate point, but not unrelated. It's tied to accessibility. Which is what the above, also is. People don't want to buy a ****load of miniatures for a game they might not even like. It's a lot easier if you ease the new player into it, and tell them that they don't have to spend a lot of money.

The price of the hobby is a detriment to the IP.

I don't want to spend a lot of money on something I don't understand and/or just seems weird to me - that's GW.
I am, however, willing to spend some money I understand quite well - that's MCP. 'Member Rocket Raccoon? I like when he said the funny thing and was cute.

See? It's all connected.

[Requizen]

On GW's front, Kill Team 3rd Ed. (?) is an attempt at this. Unfortunately the rules for it are so bad that it just...Fails. MCP's prices are a little bit silly. But given that you don't have to buy a lot to play, it's kind of okay.

Kill Team's rules aren't bad, they're probably the most solid they've been compared to the last two editions. The main issue is how those rules get out, in standard GW fashion.

Rulebook is expensive, and doesn't have any factions in it. Compendium is expensive, and getting replaced as months go by. Not only replaced, but power crept, so while you can play Compendium vs Compendium with good balance, good luck playing most Compendium teams into Kommandos. New teams are new, so require new minis, defeating one of the best parts of Kill Team, which was just using the minis you have.

TBH they nailed Skirmish with Warcry outside of some balance issues and weak campaign rules. They took the good stuff and put it into Kill Team... then immediately put it behind a very toxic business model. Because, well, GW.

On another note, I played some One Page Rules yesterday for the first time in person, specifically Age of Fantasy Skirmish. It's basically Warcry, slightly different, but free. While it lacks some of the depth, it's still fast and fun. Their Sci Fi skirmish game would be great for those KT minis I have kicking around once they inevitably run it into the ground with power creep and 700 expansions.

[Renegade Paladin]

In case it matters to anyone, I inquired with GW about their new event support program and how it affects doubles and team tournaments. The answer I got is that they only care about the number of people in a tournament, so 32 people qualify no matter how many are on a team, and each member of a winning team gets a publication code.

[FireJustice]

Well we don't hate it so much as we've moved into Stage 5; Acceptance, and a significant percentage of us have moved to 3D printers. The rest of the world is still stuck on Stage 1/2. No...See...Price hikes are good for the consumer because...Umm...During inflation...Well, you see...Errr...You don't understand business...Idiot.


Ok, I'm stealing this
Stage 6 of grief is 3D printing.

[Dragonus45]

Ok, I'm stealing this
Stage 6 of grief is 3D printing.

Oh damn that was the thread title right there

[Cheesegear]

Stage 6 of Grief is 3D Printing.

You did it. That's the one. That's genius.

[elros]

The people I know who play WH 40k like the modeling aspect of the game even more than the gameplay. MCP has appeal, but not as much opportunity for customization.

[zlefin]

How interesting is the 'designing your army' subgame in warhammer these days? I haven't ever really played, and only had a hand-me-down rule book from the late 80's or early 90's that I used to read. I remember that one had a really fancy and complicated set of point-based rules for building your army. I read the free rules for the current edition and it seems like there's a lot less customization and options for building your army.

I don't have a playgroup these days; and even in general I often find I spend more time reading about some games than playing them. Like in DnD I've read the books and made characters far more than I've played.

I wouldn't ofc plan to buy anything; it's more about how interesting it'd be if I found the books in a library or something.

[LeSwordfish]

The free rules don't include the section on army construction, which is similar to how it's always been, though a little simpler since now the options available have reduced.

[Renegade Paladin]

The free rules don't include the section on army construction, which is similar to how it's always been, though a little simpler since now the options available have reduced.

Have they, though? Not only are there a multitude of detachment types as opposed to the One Force Org Chart to Rule Them All, but the number of units has ballooned, especially in the Marines codex but also in that there are multiple new armies since then.

[LeSwordfish]

I guess? I'm thinking if the various little customisation doodads like auspexes and meltabombs, the greater level of flexibility of equipment on heroes, that kind of thing. Been writing heresy and necromunda lists recently which have really spoiled me for choice.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh in wargear yes, absolutely. That happened as soon as they decided that if it wasn't in the kit it wasn't an available option, though. New GW hates kitbashing.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh in wargear yes, absolutely. That happened as soon as they decided that if it wasn't in the kit it wasn't an available option, though. New GW hates kitbashing.

And yet we have things like Grandmasters in Dreadknights.

Unless they got a kit when I wasn't looking.

[Renegade Paladin]

And yet we have things like Grandmasters in Dreadknights.

Unless they got a kit when I wasn't looking.

That and them making the Autarch datasheet obsolete like three days after releasing the new codex are the two weird exceptions.

[Cheesegear]

How interesting is the 'designing your army' subgame in warhammer these days?

I hope I understand your question right; Not very.

9th Ed. disincentivises you for taking multiple Detachments.
9th Ed. incentivises you for taking a mono-Faction.
Nachmund made mono-Sub-Faction mandatory.

Specialist Detachments were a fun ride in 8th Ed., but they went away. For some reason they didn't catch on on GW's end.

Secondary Objectives are not like Maelstrom; You pick the best Objectives for you, and design your army around those Objectives - and no, I don't have that backwards. You don't design your army for you, then pick the best Secondary for that army. I know what I'm trying to say. I'll make it clear.

Wrong. Choose an army that you like, and use Secondaries that you think would suit that army.
Right. Choose Secondaries you like, and build an army that you think would suit those Objectives.

When you know what you want your army to do, before you build it, it's much easier (less interesting?) to build, because you already know what you want.

One of the upsetting things of 9th Ed., is that part of the win conditions of the game rely on what you do, not what your opponent does. Like, it's irrelevant whether your opponent is there or not there because you score some VPs just for existing. *shrug*

[Renegade Paladin]

Got a tournament coming up, and being the stubbornly independent TO that I am, I'm mixing it up a bit and rewriting one of my old missions to the Nachmund GT standard.

Game Knight Classic - Strike Force
TAKE AND HOLD

Mission Briefing
We must secure a landing zone close to the front for our heavy landers. Seize the area and hold it until relieved.

Primary Objectives
This mission has two primary objectives.

Take and Hold
Progressive Objective

Several strategic locations have been identified in your vicinity. You are ordered to assault these positions and hold them at any cost.

At the end of each player’s Command phase, the player whose turn it is scores 4 victory points for each of the following conditions they satisfy (for a maximum of 12 victory points):

They control one or more objective markers.
They control two or more objective markers.
They control more objective markers than their opponent controls.

This primary objective cannot be scored during the first battle round. In the fifth battle round, the player who has the second turn does not score any victory points at the end of their Command phase, but instead, at the end of their turn, they score 4 victory points for each of the above conditions they satisfy (for a maximum of 12 victory points).

Secure LZ

The landing zone must be clear of the enemy.

At the end of each player’s turn, the player whose turn it is scores 2 victory points if they satisfy one of the following conditions, or 3 victory points if they satisfy both of the following conditions.

They control two of the objective markers in no man’s land
They control at least one of the objective markers in no man’s land and the objective marker in their opponent’s deployment zone.


https://i.imgur.com/0N9edB4.png


Anything obviously wrong? I just kind of threw together the second primary loosely along the lines of others in the book.

[hamishspence]

That and them making the Autarch datasheet obsolete like three days after releasing the new codex are the two weird exceptions.

The Grandmaster is less "add new parts" and more "Reposition existing parts" (with the sword pointed down instead of up).

The Autarch updated datasheet was done because the cover art Autarch was illegal as written, as were the finecast Autarch models. It's still not got nearly as many options as the 7e Autarch datasheet (no dual-wielding guns for example), but at least now, if you have one of the finecast autarchs, you can use it, and you can mix and match between the two plastic Autarchs.

[Wraith]

The Ash Waste Nomads are finally coming to Necromunda, 27 years after first appearing in the fluff. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/21/rising-from-the-dunes-its-the-first-sighting-of-an-ash-waste-nomad/)

I can't remember the last time that I was so excited by ONE photo of ONE mini. Hook that **** directly into my veins, I want more of it yesterday.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ugh. Compiling the tournament pack now. The secondary objectives bloat in Nachmund has ballooned it from six pages to ten. :smallsigh:

[Destro_Yersul]

The Ash Waste Nomads are finally coming to Necromunda, 27 years after first appearing in the fluff. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/21/rising-from-the-dunes-its-the-first-sighting-of-an-ash-waste-nomad/)

I can't remember the last time that I was so excited by ONE photo of ONE mini. Hook that **** directly into my veins, I want more of it yesterday.

Same boat. I looked at that and was like 'whelp, there goes my money.'

[Renegade Paladin]

The Horus Heresy is getting a new edition. They say it's still going to be based on the 7th edition 40k rules, though, so I guess we'll see where they would have gone with it if they hadn't done a total reset in 8th.

[Fergie0044]

The Ash Waste Nomads are finally coming to Necromunda, 27 years after first appearing in the fluff. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/21/rising-from-the-dunes-its-the-first-sighting-of-an-ash-waste-nomad/)

I can't remember the last time that I was so excited by ONE photo of ONE mini. Hook that **** directly into my veins, I want more of it yesterday.

How do you like them ... flea riders? I'm gonna say fleas. Giant mutant fleas, what a time to be alive!

[Eldan]

Someone has replayed Morrowind recently.

[LeSwordfish]

The Horus Heresy is getting a new edition. They say it's still going to be based on the 7th edition 40k rules, though, so I guess we'll see where they would have gone with it if they hadn't done a total reset in 8th.

Some rules did leak for it: the only thing I can specifically remember is that walkers now use a infantry-like profile, everything has a Movement value, and it looks as if the USRs are a little simpler (Shrouded (1) and (2) instead of "stealth" and "shrouded" for instance, Bulky (4) instead of Very, Extremely, etc etc). Looks like a sensible amount of tidying up, and will probably require new profiles for everything but, like, it's a game with like three "codexes", how long will that take them. There was a set of leaks that I find credible that the release model will be something like 40k 9th/AOS3 - big launch box like Indomitus, probably in June/July like that was, then smaller starter sets a little later out, and the rumors say rules for Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Sons Of Horus are coming pretty soon.

They also clarified that generic things would be getting new plastic models (there's a new kind of Sicaran in the trailer) which is neat, and that legion-specific things wouldn't be, at least for now, which is a shame but not unexpected and nice to be clarified. I hope I can finish my breachers and Arcus by then: just polished off Rann and Sigismund, Battle Bros.

[Wraith]

The Horus Heresy is getting a new edition. They say it's still going to be based on the 7th edition 40k rules, though, so I guess we'll see where they would have gone with it if they hadn't done a total reset in 8th.

Wasn't it already 7th edition rules? Or was it more of a mix and I just assumed the rest of it fell into line?


How do you like them ... flea riders? I'm gonna say fleas. Giant mutant fleas, what a time to be alive!

Apparently they're called Dustback Helamites. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/24/necromunda-ash-wastes-revealed-in-full-at-adepticon/) '-Mite' as in 'dust mite', presumably.

The very last thing I was expecting - Ash Nomads were traditionally more Mad Max on motorcycles and with dune buggies, these look more like something out of Jim Henson's The Dark Crystal (https://darkcrystal.fandom.com/wiki/Landstrider) - but honestly, I think they're pretty cool.

I like the divergence - now that the Hive Gangs have Am-Bot and other automated minions, it feels suitable that the Ash Nomads have gone full on 'Tuskan Raiders' and use living mounts to set them apart. Neat.

[LeSwordfish]

Wasn't it already 7th edition rules? Or was it more of a mix and I just assumed the rest of it fell into line?

It was (very lightly updated) 7th ed all along - leaked rules look like a further upgrade but still built on the 7th ed skeleton - still using a WS/to-wound table, for example.

[druid91]

Yeah… all that stuff about the Emperor and background that Cheesegear uses is interesting, but not essential to understanding the setting. It’s stuff you get to later. It’s like starting an explanation of Marvel with “ok, so there’s Iron Man, who was a billionaire and got kidnapped by a terrorist group claiming to be the Ten Rings. Hold up, the Ten Rings are a criminal organisation led by this guy with some powerful rings, but no one knows where they come from, as they’re not Eternals tech… so the Eternals are…”

One thing GW settings have really nailed is the ‘elevator pitch’ of the setting. That first paragraph of text you read. I haven’t really seen that with many other systems and settings, so the rise of stuff like MCP is interesting. Though without knowing anything much about the system, I assume it is not so easy to really feel like you’re playing with ‘my dudes’ as it is with GW characters: Iron Man is Iron Man, albeit with a choice of different suits he can be using. So similar niche, but GW etc offers stuff it doesn’t.

Plus nowadays you can always pull up Warhammer TV on your phone if trying to convince a friend, or have it playing on a loop in your store.

[Grim Portent]

Apparently they're called Dustback Helamites. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/24/necromunda-ash-wastes-revealed-in-full-at-adepticon/) '-Mite' as in 'dust mite', presumably.

The very last thing I was expecting - Ash Nomads were traditionally more Mad Max on motorcycles and with dune buggies, these look more like something out of Jim Henson's The Dark Crystal (https://darkcrystal.fandom.com/wiki/Landstrider) - but honestly, I think they're pretty cool.

I like the divergence - now that the Hive Gangs have Am-Bot and other automated minions, it feels suitable that the Ash Nomads have gone full on 'Tuskan Raiders' and use living mounts to set them apart. Neat.

Those things are ticking waaay too many of my boxes. Strong Star Wars/Morrowind/Kenshi vibes coming off of them and I love it.

[LeSwordfish]

I like the look of the buggies. I've been playing a lot of Necromunda recently - my Orlocks, the Dead Saints, have been rattling along at the bottom of our campaign for some time, but I now have the fairly OP combo of the Tunnels territory and a ganger with meltagun and chainsword, who pops out of the tunnels and reliably puts an enemy OOO every turn. With that and some decent luck, I'm suddenly in 4/10th place and have no idea how to deal with such lofty heights. I might buy a lot of carapace armour. I like the idea of adding the buggies to my biker gang - I hope they add bikes too.

[Wraith]

I like the look of the buggies. I've been playing a lot of Necromunda recently - my Orlocks, the Dead Saints, have been rattling along at the bottom of our campaign for some time, but I now have the fairly OP combo of the Tunnels territory and a ganger with meltagun and chainsword, who pops out of the tunnels and reliably puts an enemy OOO every turn. With that and some decent luck, I'm suddenly in 4/10th place and have no idea how to deal with such lofty heights. I might buy a lot of carapace armour. I like the idea of adding the buggies to my biker gang - I hope they add bikes too.

From what I have read of Ash Wastes, it's more or less an alternate game-mode - similar to the difference between Blood Bowl and Dungeon Bowl in that it uses the same rules as the main game, but it self-contained rather than being an expansion.

If that's the case, I expect that each of the current gangs will get a vehicle to use in the Wastes - Orlocks get the ATVs and I imagine that Van Saar will keep their hoverboards (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Van-Saar-Archeoteks-and-Grav-cutters-2020), so I'd be amazed is SOMEONE didn't get a 'bike. I'm thinking slender dirt-bikes for Escher gangs, and big greasy hogs with side-cars for Goliath, maybe? And then an APC for Enforcers? Something like that, probably.

[Renegade Paladin]

A friend of mine was playing on stream at Adepticon today and I'm watching the VOD. He had a great, back and forth game, but I'm looking at the other game they were swapping back and forth to, which was Custodes vs. Necrons. The Necrons took it, 40-35. (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1435235138) This was in the second round, final roughly seven hours in.

[9mm]

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-tempest-of-war/

I know I haven't been paying any attention to 40k, but how is it I'm just now hearing about maelstrom 2.0?

[Durazno]

That sounds pretty neat. I wonder though - with the secondary objectives that require you to keep tallies, like Grind Them Down, when do you start counting? Does the player have to announce, "I'm going for Grind Them Down this turn, so we should be counting kills?"

[Renegade Paladin]

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-tempest-of-war/

I know I haven't been paying any attention to 40k, but how is it I'm just now hearing about maelstrom 2.0?

They beta tested it in White Dwarf 461 last year. The beta version was quite a bit different and as far as I know they hadn't said anything about it since.

[Hootman]

While I will definitely (probably, maybe) play with the new Maelstrom rules when they're available, the fact that they are not on standard-sized cards is deeply irritating to me. I am 100% certain that there is nothing on those cards that couldn't possibly be reduced in word count to make them fit on a standard card. The old deck fit on standard cards, and shuffling and storing them in deck boxes was a pleasant experience.

Sure, I can (and assuredly will, if the game is actually fun and worth playing multiple times) make my own cards, but I object to having to do so just in order to be able to keep track of my stuff and use it. It's bothersome.

[Blackhawk748]

Sure, I can (and assuredly will, if the game is actually fun and worth playing multiple times) make my own cards, but I object to having to do so just in order to be able to keep track of my stuff and use it. It's bothersome.

The GW experience right there

[Artanis]

While I will definitely (probably, maybe) play with the new Maelstrom rules when they're available, the fact that they are not on standard-sized cards is deeply irritating to me. I am 100% certain that there is nothing on those cards that couldn't possibly be reduced in word count to make them fit on a standard card. The old deck fit on standard cards, and shuffling and storing them in deck boxes was a pleasant experience.

Sure, I can (and assuredly will, if the game is actually fun and worth playing multiple times) make my own cards, but I object to having to do so just in order to be able to keep track of my stuff and use it. It's bothersome.

No no, see, this way, you can't lose them by accidentally mixing them in with your MtG cards and the like! It's GW looking out for you!

[Turalisj]

I've got a running bet with someone who thinks Tau are going to still be top of the meta in another 3 months. Gonna be the easiest hundred bucks I ever made.

[Wraith]

I've got a running bet with someone who thinks Tau are going to still be top of the meta in another 3 months. Gonna be the easiest hundred bucks I ever made.

I'm curious; what are they basing that on? The fact that Aeldari and Tyranids are the next two confirmed codices, or...? :smalltongue:

Also, how are you defining "top of the meta" ? Winning X number of tournaments? General IRL consensus? Bell of Lost Souls publishing an article about how bad they are?

[Forum Explorer]

I've got a running bet with someone who thinks Tau are going to still be top of the meta in another 3 months. Gonna be the easiest hundred bucks I ever made.

It's not that bad of a bet. GW can be pretty slow to fix things and if they only give Tau a light touch on the first go around, then they might stay on the top of the meta until the next balance sheet.

[Lord Ruby34]

It's not that bad of a bet. GW can be pretty slow to fix things and if they only give Tau a light touch on the first go around, then they might stay on the top of the meta until the next balance sheet.

Based on last week's results, it looks like Harlequins may have already replaced them at the top.

[LeSwordfish]

Yeah Tau have already lost their crown. 77 goddamn percent! (https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-down-with-the-clown/)

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah Tau have already lost their crown. 77 goddamn percent! (https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-down-with-the-clown/)

That is an absurd win rate for a faction, even a new one.

Hell, Eldar having an over 60% one is bad enough.

[Forum Explorer]

That is an absurd win rate for a faction, even a new one.

Hell, Eldar having an over 60% one is bad enough.

You know things are bad when my thoughts on Eldar were 'at least they are only barely above 60%'

[Blackhawk748]

You know things are bad when my thoughts on Eldar were 'at least they are only barely above 60%'

Ya, when that's the takeaway, we have an issue.

One faction significantly over the 55% target is one thing, but we have 3. Custodes are within the acceptable parameter, barely, but having 3 shoot that far over is just absurd.

[Forum Explorer]

Ya, when that's the takeaway, we have an issue.

One faction significantly over the 55% target is one thing, but we have 3. Custodes are within the acceptable parameter, barely, but having 3 shoot that far over is just absurd.

The reverse is even worse though. Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle were in the 20-30% win rate which is just awful. Imperial Guard at least have the excuse (and the hope) that they are an 8th edition codex. But SoB are already out. They need some serious help to be made competitive again.

[Blackhawk748]

The reverse is even worse though. Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle were in the 20-30% win rate which is just awful. Imperial Guard at least have the excuse (and the hope) that they are an 8th edition codex. But SoB are already out. They need some serious help to be made competitive again.

What in the goddamn **** happened to cause THAT? They were great like 6 months ago!!

And yes, that is an unacceptable win rate

[Renegade Paladin]

When not even Goonhammer can put a positive spin on it...

"Battling underdogs T’au Empire make it into the semifinals of a supermajor." The fact that they can write this sentence with an apparently straight face considering the state of the meta pre-Eldar just boggles the mind.

[Forum Explorer]

What in the goddamn **** happened to cause THAT? They were great like 6 months ago!!

And yes, that is an unacceptable win rate

No idea. It might not even stick; this isn't the first time that Sisters have just had a really bad week, and bounced back from it.

[Blackhawk748]

When not even Goonhammer can put a positive spin on it...

"Battling underdogs T’au Empire make it into the semifinals of a supermajor." The fact that they can write this sentence with an apparently straight face considering the state of the meta pre-Eldar just boggles the mind.

I think that is the most striking thing, even they can't put enough lipstick on this pig to make it not look like a dumpster fire.

I just keep thinking of what the AoE2 community would be doing if something looked this messed up.

[Cheesegear]

Hell, Eldar having an over 60% one is bad enough.

Yeah. I know what you mean; It should be at least 80% win rate for Aeldari.

Someone at GW must hate Aeldari for making their Codex so terrible. A 60-75% win rate just isn't good enough. Disgusting.

[Brookshw]

Got a good chuckle at the new video,99% sure it's just an April fools joke, but its a good one (and I refuse to give up all hope!)

[Dragonus45]

What in the goddamn **** happened to cause THAT? They were great like 6 months ago!!

And yes, that is an unacceptable win rate

It hurts my soul too, I only got back in because I love Sisters. Although I at the rate that I paint, slooooooooooooooooow, I barely get any actual playing the game in so I guess rules concerns are more of a secondary issue for me anyways.

[Requizen]

Got a good chuckle at the new video,99% sure it's just an April fools joke, but its a good one (and I refuse to give up all hope!)

Squats have been part of various rumor cycles for this year, including one that's been pretty accurate so far (called Black Templar expansion, Eldar, and a few other things). Of course, most Rumors are just throwing things at a wall that seem likely, so their reliability is questionable at best, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it's a double troll and they do drop a Squat army box later this year.

[LeSwordfish]

My guess is a Squat kill team, like the Corsairs.

[Requizen]

My guess is a Squat kill team, like the Corsairs.

I'd absolutely be down for that, since that's all I'd realistically buy anyways.

[Squark]

After the 6th edition core rulebook er... "un-squatted" the squats via one sentence in the back of the book (which listed sanctioned abhuman strains), GW has been testing the waters with Squats. Necromunda in particular has been pushing them in the fluff and even added 2 minis. A Kill Team or Necromunda Gang seems quite possible.

[Blackhawk748]

After the 6th edition core rulebook er... "un-squatted" the squats via one sentence in the back of the book (which listed sanctioned abhuman strains), GW has been testing the waters with Squats. Necromunda in particular has been pushing them in the fluff and even added 2 minis. A Kill Team or Necromunda Gang seems quite possible.

Fantasy Flight did some stuff with them too, but yes, I doubt Squats are gonna be a full army, all of their current fluff has them in smaller groups.

Which is fine,cuz they work better with that sort of thing.

[Renegade Paladin]

If that's just a joke, it's a joke with a higher animation budget than the entire run of Hammer & Bolter. :smallamused: But Space Hulk has also been rumored, and they could just take that and add a Blood Angel Terminator at the end instead of the squat and it would fit perfectly. There's even a severed Genestealer talon floating in the void in the first interior shot.

[9mm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBFgZzYEr-8&ab_channel=Warhammer

lets see where this goes.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/02/what-april-fools-the-41st-millenniums-next-faction-is-real-heres-a-model-to-prove-it/

[Eldan]

Rock and Stone.

[Brookshw]

Charge of the lazer-pick brigade. Looking forward to learning more.

[hamishspence]

I'm wondering what that gun is - plasma, melta, a bit of both like the Hrud Fusil in Warriors of Ultramar?

[zlefin]

How large is the development team? I'm curious what causes such mistakes to be so prevalent in development that there are such big balance problems. It seems like something where it should be possible to at least do somewhat better; so is hte problem simply a lack of staff? or is the staff bad at estimating balance? or are corporate decisions preventing good solutions from being used? or is it just inherently too hard to do better?

[Cheesegear]

I'm curious what causes such mistakes to be so prevalent in development that there are such big balance problems.

We heard it from Matt Ward himself a long, long time ago; Rules sell models.
Power creep is intentional; In pretty much every long-life game you can think of.

We also know that their playtesting is kind of a joke.

[Blackhawk748]

We heard it from Matt Ward himself a long, long time ago; Rules sell models.
Power creep is intentional; In pretty much every long-life game you can think of.

We also know that their playtesting is kind of a joke.

They also have HORRIFIC burnout of staff, which is why companies like Mantic come into existence. May also explain why Mantic has better balance.

Though they also outsource tournament balancing to the Rules Committee which is a large group of TOs who compile data for them and then make suggestions to Mantic who then look these over and put them in the yearly Clash of Kings tournament packet.

Its a good system as it gives the players a reasonably direct line to the company, and so they know what things we get annoyed at. Or why certain things that annoy us weren't being changed. Like Stampedes.

[Avaris]

How large is the development team? I'm curious what causes such mistakes to be so prevalent in development that there are such big balance problems. It seems like something where it should be possible to at least do somewhat better; so is hte problem simply a lack of staff? or is the staff bad at estimating balance? or are corporate decisions preventing good solutions from being used? or is it just inherently too hard to do better?

I was pondering this myself yesterday. According to the GW accounts, in 2021 there were 308 staff in ‘design and development’. That includes everything involved in putting a product out, from rules writing, model design, Eavy Metal, background writing etc, across every system. As a very rough guess, I’d assume a third of the company is focussed on 40k (300/3 = 100), and maybe a fifth of that would be actual rules design (100/5 = 20). This tallies with what we hear through WD etc, which tends to suggest a dozen or so people working on the rules. So, without additional information, I would guess the 40k development team is between 10 and 30 people, and the overall development team, for all systems, between 30 and 90.

The team is almost certainly bigger than it used to be, but I think the real challenge in terms of keeping things balanced is the rate of rules output. Goonhammer is doing a series atm about 2002, which highlighted that in 2002 only 3 codexes were released for 40k. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_(Warhammer_40,000)#3rd_Edition) this was not an unusual year: there were just two in 2001, and three in 2003. Now, this was a few years after a new edition release, so maybe not a fair comparison, but even 1999 (the year after 3rd edition) only had five (six if you count Codex Assassins, which was free in WD), and theses were much slimmer and more basic than today’s codexes, having only a few pages of lore for example. By contrast, there were 9 codexes released in 2021, and this was likely less than planned due to the pandemic. Not to mention all the additional products such as Campaign Supplements. People always complain about how long it takes to get an update for a specific army, but these updates are significantly faster than in the past.

I suspect playtesting also isn’t helped by the fact that GW wants to prevent rules leaks, so probably have a limited circle of playtesters they trust. And even then, that trust is clearly misplaced, given how often rules leak.

Edit: size of the team isn’t the only way of ensuring quality of course. I suspect there is a max team size before it gets unwieldy in a ‘too many cooks’ kind of way. Also, whenever saying ‘how could this happen’, remember that we don’t see all the things they caught and fixed along the way. If you’re working on a product to a certain timetable, there will always be things that get through the gaps, and these may not be so obvious when you’re in the heart of design as they are when published.

Edit 2: there has been a massive increase in staff over the last few years. In 2014, the longest ago accounts are easily available for, there were 203 people in design and development, 2/3 of what there is now, and this actually reduced to 167 in 2015.

[Eldan]

They also have HORRIFIC burnout of staff, which is why companies like Mantic come into existence. May also explain why Mantic has better balance.

Though they also outsource tournament balancing to the Rules Committee which is a large group of TOs who compile data for them and then make suggestions to Mantic who then look these over and put them in the yearly Clash of Kings tournament packet.

Its a good system as it gives the players a reasonably direct line to the company, and so they know what things we get annoyed at. Or why certain things that annoy us weren't being changed. Like Stampedes.

Yeah, but Mantic is also really boring. Most of their units don't do anything.

[Artanis]

We also know that their playtesting is kind of a joke.

Yeah, I remember a while back when GW was bragging about how their playtesters each got what was it, two games a week?:smallyuk:

[LeSwordfish]

Yeah I remember that too, when it was an example some guy was using, not an accurately intended number or a brag.

Speaking of playtesting, a pretty large amount of Horus Heresy 2.0 rules have leaked (https://imgur.com/a/sRSeyzH). I'm excited I think - few changes to the core system but a lot of sensible tweaking of the outer shell, including a Reaction system that seems to sit sensibly between 7th ed and 8th's Command Points. A lot of prices for units have gone down too - Terminators and breachers both at 150pts base. Terminators are two wounds each now! But 2+ saves are going to be less useful, since a bunch more things have got Rending (powerswords and autocannons especially.) Plasma guns have taken an odd downgrade - they now start at AP4 and become AP2 on a 4+ to wound, presumably to make them less useful as one-size-fits-all killers. Filling their niche as Gets Hot Rapid Fire AP2 Anti Infantry are Disintegrator weapons, which are only strength 5 - I assume to reduce plasma's ability to both be anti-infantry and anti-tank.

I'm a little peeved to see bayonets get their own rules. +1ppm for +1 strength seems like a fairly nothingy rule, I would rather have been able to take them for cosmetic purposes. Similarly, Chainswords now have Shred, which makes them five points per model in some cases! Though, a chain bayonet is 2ppm for +1 str and shred, which means a 8/9ths chance of wounding toughness 4!

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, but Mantic is also really boring. Most of their units don't do anything.

That is a feature not abug. Its a game about blocks of dudes fighting other blocks of dudes, not "Crash Doomwheels into each other and laugh".

There's a halfway point in there that can obviously be met, but Mantic went for the "Historical with some extras" approach and I really enjoy it, because what I do on the board is what matters the most in a game like that and not how stupidly awesome this one unit is.

We had Dragon Prince tag in the beginning of 2e, it was fun for a bit and we're good not having it again.

[Eldan]

I play plenty of historic systems that I enjoy. Including some quite simulationist ones, that include things like weather, terrain and courriers to relay orders. Mantic isn't boring because it's historical inspired. It's boring because I find the rules far too stripped down.

[Renegade Paladin]

GW is releasing a new balance dataslate next week to deal with Harlies. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/04/metawatch-40000-the-harlequins-performance-stole-the-show-at-adepticon/)

[Blackhawk748]

I play plenty of historic systems that I enjoy. Including some quite simulationist ones, that include things like weather, terrain and courriers to relay orders. Mantic isn't boring because it's historical inspired. It's boring because I find the rules far too stripped down.

Thats fair. I like the simplicity of it. There's enough neat stuff that each faction feels different and enough playstyles that Im happy.

Its also a hell of a lot more balanced than 40k which makes it worth the cost IMO.

[Eldan]

I never found balance all that important. But then, I play with other store regulars I've known for decades almost exclusively, and for most systems, we have our own house rules and homebrew anyway.

[Fergie0044]

GW is releasing a new balance dataslate next week to deal with Harlies. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/04/metawatch-40000-the-harlequins-performance-stole-the-show-at-adepticon/)

Gee, GW sure is getting faster at fixing the balance problems in 40k*!
*Problems that they themselves are fully the cause of and likely do on purpose....

[LeSwordfish]

You would have thought if they were deliberately making a unit super OP they'd do it with one of the new units.

[Cheesegear]

You would have thought if they were deliberately making a unit super OP they'd do it with one of the new units.

What new units? GW makes new units for old factions, in 202x?

Nah. GW just makes whatever-you-don't-have, good (a lot of the time, that is new units...But most Factions these days don't have new units). Aeldari players haven't touched Harlequin Vehicles in...A while. The majority of the power coming out of the Harlequins Faction for most (all?) of 8th Ed. was Starweavers, and those have vanished.

[LeSwordfish]

What new units? GW makes new units for old factions, in 202x?

Remember when the complaint was that GW only made new things and didn't remake old models? (Though they did also make the new shroud runners - how come they aren't top of the pops? Or the corsairs?)

Anyway, same applies to New Models. The avatar's never been very good, if they're deliberately making things broken to drive sales why isn't the new Avatar the hottest **** imaginable? Did their marketing imply that every competitive Eldar player has twenty Shining Spears in their cupboard?

[Cheesegear]

The avatar's never been very good...

I'm always surprised how quickly people have forgotten 8th Ed., the meta that was shaped in that edition, and pertinently, how the Avatar was required for Aeldari to compete in that era.

Most non-ITC* Aeldari players should have an Avatar, if they played during 8th Ed.

*I can forgive that the ITC meta and the actual meta of the game, were different, and how ITC players actually forgot how the actual game was played (LansXero was a great in-forum example). However, I'm pretty sure that that distinction and/or allowance doesn't apply to you.

[LeSwordfish]

Okay, well, what about guardians, rangers, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or dark reapers?

[lord_khaine]

Anyway, same applies to New Models. The avatar's never been very good, if they're deliberately making things broken to drive sales why isn't the new Avatar the hottest **** imaginable? Did their marketing imply that every competitive Eldar player has twenty Shining Spears in their cupboard?

Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.

[LeSwordfish]

You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

don't be silly, nobody buys a model unless evil GW has tricked them into thinking it's the only way to win games. and then they whisk it away like lucy with the football, after a whole three weeks of selling voidweavers by the bucketload

[Eldan]

Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.

I never got one. Never liked the model. Well, the Forgeworld one was nice, but shipping and import taxes on Forgeworld stuff is insane. Early on, I used a wraithlord as a centerpiece, the really old one that was basically just a head on legs. (Back when a model that size could still be a centerpiece.) Then the newer wraithlord, then a flier.

[Saambell]

Most Eldar players should just have an Avatar in general. Due to it being basically the biggest centerpiece model in your army.
You didnt get it because of the stats. You got it because the Avatar is the heart of the craftworld.

That aside. I had heard it at least was useable right now.

I cheated when it comes to the Avatar model. I skipped the proper Eldar one, and stole the statue off the Alter of Blood from the Witch Elves in Fantasy. I have zero clue if its even the right size, but its very much the right shape, even if its stance is odd being a t-pose rather then dynamic action. And hey, if its bigger, no one will blame me for using the wrong model. Though, my eldar collection is tiny, and very much needs expanding on if I'm ever to play with them beyond a 500 point game. On that front, i guess the trick now is where do I go with my collection? I have:
Far seer on foot with spear
Farseer on jetbike with spear
2 units of 5 Dire Avengers, Exarchs with double guns
2 Wave Serpents with shiruken cannons, and swappable turret guns between scatter lasers and bright lances
a Vyper with bright lance
7 wind runners with twin catapults, 3 wind runners with cannons, and 2 windrunners with scatter lasers
wraithlord with sword and shiruken cannons
wraithlord with just sword
Avatar of Khaine

I guess the obvious pick is grabbing a pile of guardians as they will give me the needed 3 troops, and can babysit the foot far seer. Maybe 2 blocks of guardians, one for the avatar and one for the far seer, but obviously put them close together to stack buffs. But this is of course assuming I will have a chance to play soonish, and if I don't feel like boosting up my Necrons or something else. After reading The Infinite and the Divine, I'm kind of in the mood for Necrons.

EDIT: Also, the Avatar of Khaine very much isn't the biggest model an Eldar player can put on the table. Checkout the Wraithknight, which is near titan size, or at least Imperial Knight sized. And for some, I must point out it is not the same thing as a Wraithlord.

[Eldan]

Oh yeah. The statue makes an awesome avatar. Got a friend who won a painting contest with that one, too.

[Blackhawk748]

Okay, well, what about guardians, rangers, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or dark reapers?

Guardians were fine in 7th, Rangers were good in 8th with stacking penalties to hit and Dark Reapers were stupidly good in 7th.

Can't comment on the rest.

[Cheesegear]

Okay, well, what about guardians, rangers, shining spears, corsairs, shroud runners or dark reapers?

Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?

'Member the horde meta?
'Member how Snipers can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?

...No? Don't remember any of that?

Okay.

[LeSwordfish]

Oh yeah. The statue makes an awesome avatar. Got a friend who won a painting contest with that one, too.

On the contrast, I know someone trying to set up the new one as the Avatar in a Daughters of Khaine army, which might be challenging since officially it should be on like a 40mm base

[Forum Explorer]

Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?

'Member the horde meta?
'Member how Snipers can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?

...No? Don't remember any of that?

Okay.

I think he's asking are they amazing right now, since they got new models. You know, good rules = sales.

And he has a point. Craftworld troops aren't great, Corsairs can't actually be your troop choice, Dark Reapers got nerfed hard, Shroud Runners lack Core, and Shining Spears are good but are pretty in line with how they are before the codex. The strongest stuff did not get new models. Well maybe you could argue Banshees.

[Hootman]

I generally find that only Completely New models are OP on launch day. Updates of older models are allowed to often just be Fine For Casuals, because their purpose is to bait in legacy players who either have a bunch of old pewter or always wanted That Army, but were turned off by the age of the models they liked. Not that they complain about new blood, obviously.

Completely New things (like the Squig Boss, or the Wurr Tower mega-chariot thing) are more commonly over-tuned, because if word gets out that they are Lame-Sauce before the initial printing sells out, GW will be left holding the bag. And that's terrible.

[Cheesegear]

And he has a point. Craftworld troops aren't great, Corsairs can't actually be your troop choice, Dark Reapers got nerfed hard, [...] The strongest stuff did not get new models. Well maybe you could argue Banshees.

Well, the point of discussion is that when a new Codex comes out; Whatever you currently have, is garbage, and whatever you don't have, is great.

There is point of contention when it comes to new models for existing units; It's a crapshoot whether they'll be good or not, because, if it's an existing unit that you already have, and it's good...You don't really need to buy new models, do you? Most metas are fine with people using older models, unless the miniature has changed dramatically; No, you can't use old/metal Be'lakor as the new, giant one.

Dire Avengers and Guardians can't really be made good...Because almost everyone who has ever played Eldar, ever, has - or should have - a lot of both. So GW drops a new box of Guardians and then makes them amazing, and then everyone sort of shrugs their shoulders; 'Don't I already have 100-odd Guardians from 8th Ed.? Thanks GW for buffing what I already own.'

Yeah, no. GW doesn't really work that way.

New models aren't really anything; New units are where it's at. Of which there have been surprisingly little in 9th Ed.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, the point of discussion is that when a new Codex comes out; Whatever you currently have, is garbage, and whatever you don't have, is great.

There is point of contention when it comes to new models for existing units; It's a crapshoot whether they'll be good or not, because, if it's an existing unit that you already have, and it's good...You don't really need to buy new models, do you? Most metas are fine with people using older models, unless the miniature has changed dramatically; No, you can't use old/metal Be'lakor as the new, giant one.

Dire Avengers and Guardians can't really be made good...Because almost everyone who has ever played Eldar, ever, has - or should have - a lot of both. So GW drops a new box of Guardians and then makes them amazing, and then everyone sort of shrugs their shoulders; 'Don't I already have 100-odd Guardians from 8th Ed.? Thanks GW for buffing what I already own.'

Yeah, no. GW doesn't really work that way.

New models aren't really anything; New units are where it's at. Of which there have been surprisingly little in 9th Ed.

Shroud Runners then. They aren't exactly bad, but since they lack Core, they can't really be called all that strong either. If they had the Ranger keyword they'd have a few more uses with the ranger secondary, but they don't, so they don't. I know it's early yet, but no one has really been talking about Shroud Runners, or has been using them in tournaments.

[LCP]

I like the idea that GW are simultaneously gutting the rules of new releases because they don't care about any models people are already likely to have enough of, but also making new sculpts + plastic injection moulds and filling up warehouse space with these new models that they have pre-emptively consigned to the bin.

It's like the maximalist Hanlon's Razor - never assign malice or incompetence when you can assume it's both at the same time.

[Eldan]

Between the dismissing the Avatar, and those three emphasised...At this point I'm concerned; Did you even play 8th Ed.?

'Member the horde meta?
'Member how Snipers can take out lynchpin horde characters? And for a long time a required part of the army - just like the Avatar?
'Member how Dark Reapers could see through walls? Admittedly, Dark Reapers had to get the hard nerf. Maybe you don't have the 8th Ed. Craftworlds Codex and aren't reading Dark Reapers without the points change?

...No? Don't remember any of that?

Okay.

Hah. I do. I've been playing an Alaitoc Rangers army since about third edition. Only rangers as core troops, supported by mostly tanks and war walkers, small handful of aspect warriors. I lost so many games.

Then suddenly, they got competent in 8th edition. It was confusing.

[LeSwordfish]

It's like the maximalist Hanlon's Razor - never assign malice or incompetence when you can assume it's both at the same time.

Assuming malice is a given: you assume the level of competence that allows the malice to fit the facts. If the new units were good, they'd be scheming geniuses: if the old units were good they'd be incompetent boobs. It's a perfect system.

[Wraith]

I like the idea that GW are simultaneously gutting the rules of new releases because they don't care about any models people are already likely to have enough of, but also making new sculpts + plastic injection moulds and filling up warehouse space with these new models that they have pre-emptively consigned to the bin.

It makes a certain amount of sense. The new units are OP and their aura of FOMO draws people to start a new army, but the new sculpts are mostly for units which are Core (so you HAVE to buy them at some point) or are in other FOC slots that you'd be mad to not to fill (Dark Reapers in Heavy, for example).

New units draw people to start the army, and then they have to buy in to the other stuff to play with regardless of whether its good or not. If you already own Guardians, GW doesn't care - they already have your money, and its the new generation of whales that they want to ensnare.

But that's getting into cartoonishly evil levels of forward planning, and I don't think that GW is either that evil or that competent. They decide to have a new release, so they make new models for it - it's Pavlovian at this point. Ring the 'new release' bell, commission new sculpts.

[Cheesegear]

Assuming malice is a given: you assume the level of competence that allows the malice to fit the facts. [...] It's a perfect system.

It's a perfect straw man, yes.

If the new units are b0rked and overtuned, as we have seen them to be, we get the hype train, we get the buzz, and then we have Eliminators sold out regularly for three months. We have Terminators sold out for...Ever? We have it on good authority at this point, that Matt Ward was right; Rules do in fact, sell models. Goonhammer says reviews - including their own - of units and Codecies influence what people buy. I know personally, from this very forum, that *I* have influenced what people have bought.

Therefore

If you know that to be the case, if you know that rules sell models, and your goal is to sell models, isn't it? Then it is very much in your interest to...Make good rules for units that people don't already own. We have seen this cycle again and again and again...Basically since 6th Ed.

Whatever is good now, gets nerfed.
Whatever is bad now, gets buffed.

This has been largely true for...Well, like I said, since at least 6th Ed. Hell, League of Legends does it. Almost any long-life game you can think of, does it. The buff/nerf cycle drives sales. You have to replace the stuff that sucks now, with the stuff that's good, if you want to keep playing. At the very end of that road lies annual updates; 'You know that version of the game you like? It doesn't work now. Please buy again with all of our fixes.'

'There is no malice involved. It's just business. That's capitalism, baby!' - a GW apologist, probably.


If the new units were good, they'd be scheming geniuses: if the old units were good they'd be incompetent boobs.

You have it completely backwards. But I can see that you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative. So that's fine. Happens all the time.

If the old units that were bad, that you don't have (because they're bad), are made good, they're scheming geniuses.
If new units are bad-on-release, they're incompetent boobs (Don't nerf them until after two months or so...At least)

The goal is to sell models. Even the ones you have sitting in a warehouse for 8 years.

Old units are good all the time; As above, Terminators (and Centurions) kicked nine kinds of arse in 8th Ed. Terminators had not been seen since 5th Ed., and the regular ones without Storm Shields hadn't been seen since...Ever?

What I said, was...


Nah. GW just makes whatever-you-don't-have, good

That can - and does - include many, many, many units that can trace their lineage all the way back to 2nd Ed.

I'm pretty sure you can trace any Faction's lineage, and what's good in any edition for a respective Faction is unlikely to be consecutive; Eldar/Craftworlds/Aeldari, is both a topical and great example.

EDIT:
I think it was Forum Explorer (apologies if it wasn't) who said that they'd been playing and collecting this game for so long that the buff/nerf cycle means nothing because by this point he has everything in the book...Which is kind of the plan, I guess... Though I'd be legitimately surprised if [whoever said that] has a stack of Vypers from from whatever edition they were good in. I was nearing that point with Space Marines at the start of 8th Ed. But then Primaris Marines have invalidated almost my entire collection by now - which of course, was the point.

Me: Can't see why I'd ever replace Sternguard. They're so useful.
GW: What if we nerfed them?
Me: They still perform a role that almost no other unit can.
GW: Nerf them again.
Me: I mean...They still do the job. Can't see why I'd buy new models.
GW: Heavy Intercessors?
Me: ...There it is.
GW: They're Troops, too. lol.
Me: They sure are.
GW: We made Scouts Elites, so now you have no Troops.
Me: I get it. Buy Heavy Intercessors.

[LCP]

You have it completely backwards. But I can see that you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative. So that's fine. Happens all the time.


or LeSwordfish just knows how to use 'were' in the second conditional.

Seems kind of relevant to the 'assuming malice' problem in some way...

[Cheesegear]

Seems kind of relevant to the 'assuming malice' problem in some way...

Not really; I mostly assume stupidity in almost all cases, as per the referenced Hanlon's Razor.

GW is stupid for overtuning their new units,
GW is stupid for turning customers away when they nerf the things the customers already own,
GW is stupid for raising prices on old kits they've already made money on,
etc.

But then again, I think going full capitalism on a luxury product during times of inflation with a rapidly developing consumer-level, affordable technology taking the textiles world by storm, hot on your heels, is very, very silly. No malice needs to be involved. Just a lot of desperate people making a lot of bad decisions that make consumers mad.

[LeSwordfish]

Not really; I mostly assume stupidity in almost all cases, as per the referenced Hanlon's Razor.

Hey, I'm not the one who doesn't know what "were" means :smalltongue:

EDIT: and more seriously, you literally read the sentence and said "you're using different words to what I said to fit your narrative" instead of "you're wrong".

[Forum Explorer]

EDIT:
I think it was Forum Explorer (apologies if it wasn't) who said that they'd been playing and collecting this game for so long that the buff/nerf cycle means nothing because by this point he has everything in the book...Which is kind of the plan, I guess... Though I'd be legitimately surprised if [whoever said that] has a stack of Vypers from from whatever edition they were good in. I was nearing that point with Space Marines at the start of 8th Ed. But then Primaris Marines have invalidated almost my entire collection by now - which of course, was the point.

Me: Can't see why I'd ever replace Sternguard. They're so useful.
GW: What if we nerfed them?
Me: They still perform a role that almost no other unit can.
GW: Nerf them again.
Me: I mean...They still do the job. Can't see why I'd buy new models.
GW: Heavy Intercessors?
Me: ...There it is.
GW: They're Troops, too. lol.
Me: They sure are.
GW: We made Scouts Elites, so now you have no Troops.
Me: I get it. Buy Heavy Intercessors.

It was me! :smallsmile: And yes, I do have Vypers. Three of them. A unit that has been good for a while that I just don't have (or want) is Night Spinners. I just don't like playing Craftworlds as a stand back and shoot army.

But Primaris Marines were something else. I kinda hate Primaris Marines for being a blatant, 'replace your army' thing. I don't play Space Marines, so it didn't actually effect me at all, but it still upset me.

[9mm]

But Primaris Marines were something else. I kinda hate Primaris Marines for being a blatant, 'replace your army' thing. I don't play Space Marines, so it didn't actually effect me at all, but it still upset me.

the thing about Primaris is they weren't supposed to be additions, but the line refresh; but because the Space Marine line was already a bloated mess that wasn't feasible. So more bloat to the massively over bloated faction.

Of course the whole counterpoint to the "always deliberately overpower the new stuff" is every once in awhile you get warscolls like the crossboos.

[Renegade Paladin]

I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book. If they make any of it good, I'm in business. :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

I never got one. Never liked the model. Well, the Forgeworld one was nice, but shipping and import taxes on Forgeworld stuff is insane. Early on, I used a wraithlord as a centerpiece, the really old one that was basically just a head on legs. (Back when a model that size could still be a centerpiece.) Then the newer wraithlord, then a flier.

Those are hilarious. I got two. One on a original square base xD
And fair. Well i guess taste differ. Though i think its hard to deny that for a long time the Avatar was one of the most complex models in the Eldar army.
It seemed clear it was intended as a centerpiece unit.

[Clistenes]

I have a question for the loremasters:

I don't play tabletop WH40K, but I read the novels and I have tried Dark Heresy a tiny bit...

I have read Horus Heresy Book 5 -Tempest, and I found the Provenances of War interesting.

What I would like to know is; If you take a D-99/Gland Warrior and slap Elite Warrior, Gene-crafted and Cyber-augmented on top of it... how does it compare to units like Sisters of Battle, Skitarii or Tempestus Scions?

[LeSwordfish]

Tempestus scions are pretty tough cookies but are fundamentally just dudes. They're Seal Team Six - you could pretty trivially make a guy tougher and fightier than one of them with gene-enhancements and cybernetics. Sisters of battle are more or less the same, except they have the really good armour and guns. In lore terms, I think you'd have to try a bit harder to make someone tough enough to outfight a person with bolter and chainsword in power armour. I'm less up on the skitarii lore.

[Fergie0044]

I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book. If they make any of it good, I'm in business. :smalltongue:

I'm in the same position for Death Guard. Unfortunately GW's plan seems to be to nerf the entire army into the ground to force me to collect/buy another faction. (30% win rate this weekend according to Goonhammer, woohoo!)

[The Patterner]

I know I've been playing Guard long enough to have nearly everything in the book. If they make any of it good, I'm in business. :smalltongue:

Currently working on a Death korps army using nothing from forge world but instead the kill team models and... other options...

Yes I'm a masochist for starting a third guard army, especially considering the current rules...

Spank me harder daddy GW.

EDIT: If they decide to make sentinels really good my old Tallarn army will become an absolute beast...

[Clistenes]

Tempestus scions are pretty tough cookies but are fundamentally just dudes. They're Seal Team Six - you could pretty trivially make a guy tougher and fightier than one of them with gene-enhancements and cybernetics. Sisters of battle are more or less the same, except they have the really good armour and guns. In lore terms, I think you'd have to try a bit harder to make someone tough enough to outfight a person with bolter and chainsword in power armour. I'm less up on the skitarii lore.

Thank you, but I was thinking of tabletop stats: How would they measure as units in a game?

[Grim Portent]

I have a question for the loremasters:

I don't play tabletop WH40K, but I read the novels and I have tried Dark Heresy a tiny bit...

I have read Horus Heresy Book 5 -Tempest, and I found the Provenances of War interesting.

What I would like to know is; If you take a D-99/Gland Warrior and slap Elite Warrior, Gene-crafted and Cyber-augmented on top of it... how does it compare to units like Sisters of Battle, Skitarii or Tempestus Scions?

Generally speaking making a warrior that is technically superior to a battle sister, scion or skitarii is quite possible. The Imperial Militia and Cults HH faction can rival space marines in terms of individual ability in specific areas, though they always remain mere humans in other places. They also lack other faction benefits of course, an IMaC soldier can be armed and armoured like a sister of battle but they'll never have faith powers, nor skitarii doctrines or guard orders.

I can't remember the exact details of the IMaC and which upgrades are mutually exclusive at the moment, but S4/T4/4+ save is doable, and physically superior to most other 'human' forces, I think T4/3+ save is doable as well, but I'm not so sure of that one, which is on par with old marines for durability. They can also of course be upgraded to have more attacks than marines, and at the same strength and basically be a bunch of chem-fueled berserker soldiers.

I can't remember exactly what Elite Warrior does, think it's +1 leadership, or is it +1 BS? But the stats would wind up like S4 or 5*, T3, 5-4+ save and 6++. Not bad, but also not amazing.

Gene-crafted as I recall is +1S, and Gland Warriors would probably also have +1S or perhaps +1A.

In theory you could make a soldier who is better (in some circumstances) than even a space marine in the RPGs, it would just be exorbitantly expensive and difficult. It's doable in Dark Heresy, though you have to indulge in some very dark heresy to pull it off via xeno-grafting, and easily doable in Black Crusade but that uses warp rituals to do it. You'd miss out on a bunch of unique benefits like breathing underwater and being resistant to blood loss, and doing the same procedures to a marine would get better results, but you can make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.

[Clistenes]

Generally speaking making a warrior that is technically superior to a battle sister, scion or skitarii is quite possible. The Imperial Militia and Cults HH faction can rival space marines in terms of individual ability in specific areas, though they always remain mere humans in other places. They also lack other faction benefits of course, an IMaC soldier can be armed and armoured like a sister of battle but they'll never have faith powers, nor skitarii doctrines or guard orders.

I can't remember the exact details of the IMaC and which upgrades are mutually exclusive at the moment, but S4/T4/4+ save is doable, and physically superior to most other 'human' forces, I think T4/3+ save is doable as well, but I'm not so sure of that one, which is on par with old marines for durability. They can also of course be upgraded to have more attacks than marines, and at the same strength and basically be a bunch of chem-fueled berserker soldiers.

I can't remember exactly what Elite Warrior does, think it's +1 leadership, or is it +1 BS? But the stats would wind up like S4 or 5*, T3, 5-4+ save and 6++. Not bad, but also not amazing.

Gene-crafted as I recall is +1S, and Gland Warriors would probably also have +1S or perhaps +1A.

In theory you could make a soldier who is better (in some circumstances) than even a space marine in the RPGs, it would just be exorbitantly expensive and difficult. It's doable in Dark Heresy, though you have to indulge in some very dark heresy to pull it off via xeno-grafting, and easily doable in Black Crusade but that uses warp rituals to do it. You'd miss out on a bunch of unique benefits like breathing underwater and being resistant to blood loss, and doing the same procedures to a marine would get better results, but you can make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.

Thank you very much!

[lord_khaine]

but you can make a supersoldier strong enough to beat a marine in an arm wrestling match, or even throw one around like a ragdoll from a baseline human.

Well yeah. Maries are just argumented humans themselves.
The big thing about them is mostly that its possible to mass produce them.

[Renegade Paladin]

Here we are a week later and the promised balance update still hasn't materialized. Guess I have to run this weekend's tournament without it. :smallsigh:

[9mm]

Here we are a week later and the promised balance update still hasn't materialized. Guess I have to run this weekend's tournament without it. :smallsigh:

It'll probably drop on a Friday like last time. Enjoy your meta of angry clown bees.

[Renegade Paladin]

It'll probably drop on a Friday like last time. Enjoy your meta of angry clown bees.

None so far, but not all the lists are in yet. Because I delayed the errata cutoff hoping they'd release it (and am off on Friday) I pushed back the list due date to Friday at noon, so we'll see.

[lord_khaine]

It is impressive how badly GW screwed up on this xD
Like.. its seems as if they literally didnt playtest this?

[Fergie0044]

Just dropped; https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/14/the-warhammer-40000-balance-dataslate-find-out-what-changes-are-in-store-for-your-favourite-army/

I was not expecting the game wide buff to all power armour units! Indirect fire and bodyguard getting the nerfs they deserve was also welcome. I don't know enough about the clowns or Tau to comment on their nerfs, but it seems like this is setting up nids domination for the foreseeable future. So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.

[LeSwordfish]

The tyranid rules aren't available to buy yet, which might make them a touch tricky to gather public feedback on.

[Fergie0044]

The tyranid rules aren't available to buy yet, which might make them a touch tricky to gather public feedback on.

Very true, I shouldn't place so much blind faith in the early goonhammer review.

[9mm]

Just dropped; https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/14/the-warhammer-40000-balance-dataslate-find-out-what-changes-are-in-store-for-your-favourite-army/

I was not expecting the game wide buff to all power armour units! Indirect fire and bodyguard getting the nerfs they deserve was also welcome. I don't know enough about the clowns or Tau to comment on their nerfs, but it seems like this is setting up nids domination for the foreseeable future. So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.

I feel sorry for Ork players though, but overall this is a laugh riot.

[Cheesegear]

So again it's not about balancing the game, but making sure the wheel of "haves and have nots" continues to turn.

No. You can't...Hey. Wait a second... That's my line! :smallannoyed:

[Forum Explorer]

It is impressive how badly GW screwed up on this xD
Like.. its seems as if they literally didnt playtest this?

Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard.

I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons.

And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained.

The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.

[Blackhawk748]

Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard.

I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons.

And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained.

The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.

I think they were talking about pre nerf Harlies, because sweet god those were gross. 70% win rate is just unforgivable.

[Renegade Paladin]

Really? I think this is an overall positive change. Space Marines needed the buff, badly. Indirect fire needed the nerf, badly. As did Bodyguard.

I do feel they went too far with Custodes and Imperial Guard, as I don't think Custodes were that bad, or that Imperial Guard needed to autowound on 6s for all of their weapons.

And honestly, the nerfs to Tau and Harliquins were pretty restrained.

The factions who really lost out were the ones who didn't get touched at all, namely Necrons.

That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it. :smallwink:

[Forum Explorer]

That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it. :smallwink:

Oh, yep. You are correct. I guess he was talking about pre-nerf Harlequins then.

[lord_khaine]

That post dates to before the dataslate was released, so he couldn't have been talking about it.

Unless im a future psychic! :smallbiggrin:


I think they were talking about pre nerf Harlies, because sweet god those were gross. 70% win rate is just unforgivable.

I saw a 75% win rate listed somewhere. And that included mirror clown matches!

[Blackhawk748]

I saw a 75% win rate listed somewhere. And that included mirror clown matches!

Someone listed it here and I went a bit insane. Probably because of all the AoE 2 I've been watching where something like that would be nuked by the community within moments. Hell, Civs with 57% overall winrates get sideeyed.

[Renegade Paladin]

Welp, the 9 Voidweaver list adjusted down to 1500 points got submitted this morning. Ladies and gentlemen, we have our winner. :smallsigh:

[lord_khaine]

Is it still a vinner?
As i understand the Void Weaver isnt nearly as competative at 130 points.
Thats suddenly more than 2/3 of the army now.

[Renegade Paladin]

Is it still a vinner?
As i understand the Void Weaver isnt nearly as competative at 130 points.
Thats suddenly more than 2/3 of the army now.

The balance dataslate didn't make the errata cutoff. 90 point Voidweavers get one last hurrah, and someone's taking it.

[lord_khaine]

Welp.. no i see.
Still.. if i had just bought 9 void weavers? you could be dam sure i would use the chance to use them. :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

In 2000 points they'll still have the chance to use them. They'll just have to cut out some things. What made Harlequins so very busted was that everything was so cheap that they could take 9 Voidweavers and the requirements for a battalion and still have like 300 points to play with. :smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

In 2000 points they'll still have the chance to use them. They'll just have to cut out some things. What made Harlequins so very busted was that everything was so cheap that they could take 9 Voidweavers and the requirements for a battalion and still have like 300 points to play with. :smalltongue:

And now they just don't have that 300. Which may be enough.

Maybe.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well as I said, I'm running a 1500 point tournament and dude still took nine, so they can squeeze them in even down 500 points. I'll report on tournament results tomorrow evening.

[lord_khaine]

I'll report on tournament results tomorrow evening.

Sounds like it will be a.. circus :smallcool:

[Artanis]

Sounds like it will be a.. circus :smallcool:

Possibly even a Clown Fiesta.

[Renegade Paladin]

Harlequins dumpstered everybody, with Crusher Stampede and Custodes in second and third, so no surprises. A beautifully painted Ultramarines army took both best painted and the wooden spoon. :smalltongue: It'll be interesting to see how that shakes up next month with the dataslate and new Tyranids codex.

[lord_khaine]

So.. Harlequins got a solid nerf. And i think Custodes a light nerf?
While Tyranids get a massive buff in the new codex as far as i understood.

So Tyranids the new Harlequins?

[Forum Explorer]

So.. Harlequins got a solid nerf. And i think Custodes a light nerf?
While Tyranids get a massive buff in the new codex as far as i understood.

So Tyranids the new Harlequins?

Custodes got slammed hard. Losing Objective Secured on so much stuff, and their go to stratagems got a lot worse too.

Tyranids might be the new Harlequins, if Crusher Stampede is still legal. It would be so broken that some tournaments aren't even waiting for GW and are preemptively banning it.

[Blackhawk748]

Custodes got slammed hard. Losing Objective Secured on so much stuff, and their go to stratagems got a lot worse too.

Tyranids might be the new Harlequins, if Crusher Stampede is still legal. It would be so broken that some tournaments aren't even waiting for GW and are preemptively banning it.

Wow. Don't think I've seen something so broken that TOs are just out right banning it themselves.

Way to go GW.

[lord_khaine]

Tyranids might be the new Harlequins, if Crusher Stampede is still legal. It would be so broken that some tournaments aren't even waiting for GW and are preemptively banning it.

Would it be worse than Harlequins 2 weeks ago?

[Renegade Paladin]

Wow. Don't think I've seen something so broken that TOs are just out right banning it themselves.

Way to go GW.

I am informed that GW has told the big organizers to do it in their group for the Approved TOs, since they're doing that now. I am similarly informed that in the same venue they say removing the Knight buffs was a mistake and to keep using them.

[Forum Explorer]

Would it be worse than Harlequins 2 weeks ago?

Massively. As is, people are predicting Tyranids to be an S-tier faction. Giving all of their strongest stuff a 5++ and -1 damage would probably make it so that nothing has a chance against them.

[Wraith]

Warhammer Community has shared upcoming improvements to Chaos Space Marines as part of the run-up to Nachmund: Rift War. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/18/two-wounds-are-only-the-beginning-for-chaos-space-marine-legionaries/)

Not just 2 Wounds, but also 3 Attacks as standard. They also get new stats in chainaxes and Daemon weapons, as the Balefire Acolyte rule from Kill Team is being imported to the main game.

Also, the first special character from Necromunda: Ash Wastes has been announced - a bad-ass bounty hunter lady who rides her own personal ATV with a rocket launcher on her shoulder (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/18/meet-vespa-minx-merdena-the-orlock-bounty-hunter-with-the-best-coiffure-on-all-necromunda/). Ash Wastes is working hard to be the silliest, craziest, most amazing update ever. :smalltongue:


Massively. As is, people are predicting Tyranids to be an S-tier faction. Giving all of their strongest stuff a 5++ and -1 damage would probably make it so that nothing has a chance against them.

I have a friend who grew up close with people who still work at GW. So far he's been at least as reliable as any other source of GW rumours that you care to mention. His take on this is that the next few codices are all going to be broken as hell and they're doing it deliberately.

Firstly to kick-start new interest in the hobby as people come out of lockdown and distancing requirements and back into gaming and tournaments, proper - they're making stuff that people will WANT to buy, not just 'would kind of like if given the chance'.
Secondly it's very likely to be that GW are tying up 9e - every faction gets a codex thrown out ASAP, hence why we get Aeldari, Tyranids and Tau coming out one after the other (how often have we have 2 xenos releases back-to-back, let alone 3?) and each is going to be increasingly silly as 'future proofing'. Get them done, make them all good and in as little need of FAQing or revisiting as possible, then focus on 10th edition for the big re-release that 9e should have been.

Seems reasonable, to me. Haven't seen it hinted anywhere else, but it adds up and would be a smart move in GW's part.

[Renegade Paladin]

The Balance Dataslate was updated today to re-include the Knight buffs and clarify Militarum Tempestus' interaction with Hammer of the Emperor (there isn't one; they neither break it nor get it). Also they published a "Content Validity Update" which specifies which campaign books have been superseded by codices and should no longer be used in matched play. What's interesting there is some of the entries have sunset dates. Most are until January, 2023 or until superseded by a codex, but Creations of Bile and Agents of the Imperium are marked good until June 2023 with no codex provision. 10th edition release confirmed? :smallconfused:

[lord_khaine]

I think the biggest surprise is the swift reaction.
Lizard people having replaced the GW board, accidentially caring to much about things confirmed? :smallconfused:

[Blackhawk748]

I think the biggest surprise is the swift reaction.
Lizard people having replaced the GW board, accidentially caring to much about things confirmed? :smallconfused:

I think its more of a "This is so broken its not attracting players, its pushing them away" situation. Like, people were VERY unhappy with Harlies, if Nids were gonna be worse it was gonna be a bloodbath for GW online.

[Cheesegear]

accidentally caring to much about things confirmed? :smallconfused:

I don't think it's an accident.

https://i.imgur.com/e9LDGkB.png

When your stock drops 25% in a quarter, you take a look around.

[Avaris]

The idea that GW stock is remotely affected by the opinions of the community, rather than the wider economic issues of the UK’s energy crisis, cost of living, and the war in Ukraine, is laughable.

[Cheesegear]

The idea that GW stock is remotely affected by the opinions of the community

It's called voting with your wallet, and it absolutely has an effect. You can tell because the 2021 holidays were...Not kind to a retail company that boasted of its massive success during the last two years when everything else was turning to ****. Why did everything turn to **** at the end of 2021 (i.e; Not in the last month). But that's not even close to what I'm talking about, so I'll stop.


rather than the wider economic issues of the UK’s energy crisis, cost of living, and the war in Ukraine, is laughable.

What does that have to do with anything?

Your stock has fallen (and it started pre-holiday season, not after, and you're a retail company...). That's a big problem.

What should you do to bring it back up? What do?

If the answer is; 'Sell your IP' 'Care about the customers you do still have.', then you're on the same page as me.

I don't care why their stock has dropped. That was never my point. What I care about is the consequences, optics and solutions, to said drop and how that manifests.

[LeSwordfish]

Do you think people making purchase decisions based on rules are more common than people making purchase decisions based on "i've spent all my money on petrol"?

My electricity bill tripled this month. I'm unable to vote with my wallet because it's empty.

EDIT: hang on, this is stock, not profits. Are the shareholders voting with their wallets?

[Blackhawk748]

Do you think people making purchase decisions based on rules are more common than people making purchase decisions based on "i've spent all my money on petrol"?

My electricity bill tripled this month. I'm unable to vote with my wallet because it's empty.

But GW doesn't know that, they just know you didn't buy anything. So they're gonna look around, see that online people are complaining about X or Y trend in the game, and try and change something, because that's something they can change.


EDIT: hang on, this is stock, not profits. Are the shareholders voting with their wallets?

This is entirely possible. Again, if you're a shareholder and you peek online to see whats up in the community, and you see people very upset with how the Release Nerf cycle goes, you may think to go to a less volatile company.

[LeSwordfish]

But GW doesn't know that, they just know you didn't buy anything.

Their electricity bill also tripled.


Again, if you're a shareholder and you peek online to see whats up in the community,

Are they doing that? I was under the impression most shareholders were big companies or large holders, not individuals going on warseer to read angry posts.

[Cheesegear]

Do you think people making purchase decisions based on rules are more common than people making purchase decisions based on "i've spent all my money on petrol"?

How does GW convince people to ignore petrol, and buy toy soldiers...Y'know...Like the good old days? ...JokingNotJoking.

I legitimately spent my rent money on Grey Knights back in 5th Ed. I ate mi goreng for every meal, for two weeks until my next pay. Cost of living? Pfft. There is only toy soldiers.

[LeSwordfish]

I legitimately spent my rent money on Grey Knights back in 5th Ed.

Well, maybe that's a you thing.

[Cheesegear]

Well, maybe that's a you thing.

Judging by how GW has exploited FOMO is the last several years, I'm pretty sure it's the kind of customers GW wants.

Fortunately for me, I was okay in a month because 5th Ed. was decades ago.

Unfortunately for GW, exploiting FOMO doesn't work when your impulse-buying customer doesn't believe they'll be okay by next paycheque. And maybe landlords aren't as lenient as they used to be.

So, back to the original spark of the conversation.

Is GW accidentally caring about their game; No. They're caring about their game on purpose. They have to... At least until such time as they don't, and new-new-NEW GW reverts back to Old GW and the simulation repeats.

[Saambell]

If the stock drop is more on the investor/stockholder side like some have suggested, the issue might be more due to perceived connections. The stock and profits jump massively for a hobby company during the times a large number of major countries had piles of restrictions and thus large numbers of people with more free time. More free time turns maybe customers of a hobby company into new customers. Thus the huge jump in profits. However, if that is the cause of profits, those countries going back to normal is actually bad for hobby company profits, as those people who got free time for the hobby have now lost said free time. Add that on top of global inflation and rising living costs, and that's a ton of maybe lost customers. Hence the stock drop. Even if GW isn't losing customers or profit, if their investors and stockholders think there will be a loss, they will sell their shares before it doesn't happen. Now that the conditions that seem to have boosted interest and sales of GW stuff have left, so too will those investors just looking for a quick buck off a jumping company.

[Forum Explorer]

For that matter, I'd say this is hardly indicative of GW 'caring'. There was a lot of people asking GW if Crusher Stampede and the Leviathan Supplement were going to be legal and predicting how broken it would be. The rules that have come out since Christmas have been pretty poorly balanced almost across the board.

[Cheesegear]

The rules that have come out since Christmas have been pretty poorly balanced almost across the board.

Again, if GW wants to continue to say 'We're a models company!', they're gonna go downhill, fast...Oh wait.

What they need to do is convince the players that they still have, that the rules they produce for the game is still better than anything that they could come up with, on their own.
TTRPGs have done this, forever:
'Yes, you can do what you want, it's your table...But your rules are stupid and dumb, and here are our official rules that aren't terrible and dumb like yours.'

At present, it's very, very clear to everyone that you don't need GW-models to play GW-games. This was always true. But back in the day the alternative to a $65 Drop Pod, was a Coke can. When your options are Drop Pod or a Coke can, the Drop Pod is Just Better, even at its absurd cost. In 202x, the alternative to way overpriced Tank...Is a different Tank from a different company...Maybe even a Tank that you can make in your own home!

So yeah.

Your stock drops ~25% in a little less than two quarters, during the biggest retail season. What do? Do the thing you can do that actually requires almost no investment at all; Make a good game.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm. Well its a convincing argument.
That the stock dropped like it got murdered seems to speak for itself.
It could explain a rush to seemingly get a new edition out?

And if your in a panic mode over dropped stock.
Then yeah making the game playable by fixing the worst outliers seems minimal investment.
Especially when the players find the broken stuff for you.

[Destro_Yersul]

If the last couple years have taught us anything, it's that the amount of money a company makes and the value of its stock have very little to do with each other.

Anyways, seems like a decent time to buy some GW stock.

[LeSwordfish]

You would think that if "release broken stuff then fix it when people buy it" was so sensible profitable, this would be the time to double down on it.

[Renegade Paladin]

You would think that if "release broken stuff then fix it when people buy it" was so sensible profitable, this would be the time to double down on it.

That only gets you so far, though, before the people who did that the first few times get wise to the scheme, and the people who didn't get tired of the game being broken.

[Wraith]

Pre-pandemic, one year GW's revenue was 50% from licensing their IP. This year we got Total Warhammer 3 and we're still due Blood Bowl 3, Dark Tide, Chaos Gate, Space Marine 2 and a ****-tonne of iOS and mobile stuff aside, so if they're going to double down on anything I expect it might be that. Double the profits for the low, low cost of rubber-stamping a bunch of stuff that last year was only a "maybe" project. :smalltongue:

It's not as though GW are in any danger of closing down and going bust. They're not losing money, they're just not making quite as much profit as before.

[Dragonus45]

You would think that if "release broken stuff then fix it when people buy it" was so sensible profitable, this would be the time to double down on it.

Much like how a single bad movie can make tons of money of incoming hype before dropping off hard on the sequels, something being very profitable in the short term like Break The Game/Nerf The Game cycle looks like the best idea ever by the numbers right up until it totally backfires on you.

[Avaris]

Hmm. Well its a convincing argument.
That the stock dropped like it got murdered seems to speak for itself.
It could explain a rush to seemingly get a new edition out?

And if your in a panic mode over dropped stock.
Then yeah making the game playable by fixing the worst outliers seems minimal investment.
Especially when the players find the broken stuff for you.

The edition element doesn’t work with lead times on products though. The codexes being released now likely had their rules finalised at least six months ago, and were committed to print maybe three months ago at the latest. The timing of the releases, and any new edition, was set years ago, albeit it was then messed up by covid.

Putting out new rules fixes will have no effect on the stock level, and as Destro_Yersul says, stock fluctuations have very little relationship with actual profits. Plus, the GW profit position is actually fairly stable: they put out an earnings report last month, confirming that revenue over the three months December/January/February (i.e. the key retail season) was in line with expectations, and paying a sizeable dividend. Investors are spooked, but not by anything inherent to GW: the massive falls in stock have happened all over due to the recent economic shocks.

Putting out fixes is good, but they’re certainly not instigated by any cynical and/or desperate attempts to boost profits more than any other company would, or in a panic over share price.

…
In other news, had a weekend with my first wargaming in a while! Got to play my first games of Necromunda and Kill Team, and then a great game of Crusade in which my Daemon Prince was obliterated in turn 1 by T’au Fire Warriors (auto wounding on 6s is nasty if the dice are with you!), and which came down to my last surviving Plague Marine in a fist fight with an Ethereal while the fire warriors were eaten by Spawn in the background. I purposefully didn’t charge anything else in to allow for the dramatic climax!

Anyone who has played both Necromunda and Kill Team, do you recall how your first impressions compared? I enjoyed both, but to my surprise found Necromunda more straightforward in my head and less complex feeling. Possibly it’s because the base game is still much more like 40k with extra bits added, whereas Kill Team is whole new mechanics?

[Forum Explorer]

Your stock drops ~25% in a little less than two quarters, during the biggest retail season. What do? Do the thing you can do that actually requires almost no investment at all; Make a good game.

I guess my point is that they aren't doing that yet.

[Cheesegear]

This year we got Total Warhammer 3 and we're still due Blood Bowl 3, Dark Tide, Chaos Gate, Space Marine 2 and a ****-tonne of iOS and mobile stuff aside, so if they're going to double down on anything I expect it might be that.
[...]
It's not as though GW are in any danger of closing down and going bust.

GW wont die. What it will do is change into something it isn't, currently. Most likely into something tabletop wargamers don't actually want.

The GW I know will die. But GW itself, as an entity will still be around for quite some time.

I have seen it going around that the reason their stock fell was because it was an attempt to sell to another company - most likely Hasbro - that didn't take. When GW was not sold, or the deal fell through, or it was made clear that Hasbro wasn't interested in an IP about superhuman murderers murderering alien murderers murderering demonic murderers murderering murdering terminators...That's a potential reason for the stock drop. Stock-inflation-with-intent-to-sell.
But, the stock market is crazy and anything and everything can be true all at the same time.


Anyone who has played both Necromunda and Kill Team, do you recall how your first impressions compared?

My first impression of Kill Team is that it's awful. It felt like going from WHFB to AoS. I'm sure there's a market for Kill Team, but it isn't me. I might be in the market for Kill Team a long time from now, after they fix several things and allow customisation back. But that time isn't now. However, given how GW has treated it's non-major games during the pandemic (e.g; Cursed City), it's hard to know when GW will get around to making Kill Team a good game.

[Callos_DeTerran]

My first impression of Kill Team is that it's awful. It felt like going from WHFB to AoS.

What WAS the big change from WHFB to AoS that people hate so much? I've never seen WHFB, but I've seen games of AoS and they look like a lot of fun, so wondering at the issue here.

[Forum Explorer]

What WAS the big change from WHFB to AoS that people hate so much? I've never seen WHFB, but I've seen games of AoS and they look like a lot of fun, so wondering at the issue here.

Well it was a completely different game for starters. Secondly, when AoS was first released it had no army guidelines or something? I don't know, I can't remember exactly.

[DaedalusMkV]

What WAS the big change from WHFB to AoS that people hate so much? I've never seen WHFB, but I've seen games of AoS and they look like a lot of fun, so wondering at the issue here.

Aside from the fact that they have for all intents and purposes nothing in common? The release of AoS was so bad that calling it a dumpster fire would be an insult to burning garbage. It barely even deserved to be called a game. It had no real mechanics for balancing anything, so the best you could do to have a 'fair fight' was eyeball it. The mechanics were incredibly shallow, the special rules were about a 50/50 mix of broken and useless, when they weren't just a straight-up joke. I'm pretty sure I could have come up with a better ruleset given a week and a notebook. AoS on launch was pathetically, insultingly bad, and the only thing WHFB fans could think was 'they killed our game for this?!'

AoS is probably a perfectly fine game these days. It's definitely a lot better than those horrid first months where even the most casual of gamers had to work hard to have fun, assuming it was possible for anyone to have fun at all. But it's a completely different genre of wargame from WHFB, which was all about ranked-up units, constricted movement and tactical positioning. Suffice to say that for many of us who liked WHFB, AoS was a slap in the face at best. Imagine if Age of Empires suddenly rebranded as a MOBA, and you'll get roughly the degree of genre shift we're talking about.

[Cheesegear]

Imagine if Age of Empires suddenly rebranded as a MOBA, and you'll get roughly the degree of genre shift we're talking about.

I'm kind of imagining WarCraft 3 to Heroes of the Storm, myself.

Or perhaps more accurately, WC3 to WoW.

[Saambell]

I'm kind of imagining WarCraft 3 to Heroes of the Storm, myself.

Or perhaps more accurately, WC3 to WoW.

Or relative to the thread: Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 2. Or Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 3. Or Dawn of War 2 to Dawn of War 3. The shift in each of those games was quite big.

[Avaris]

What WAS the big change from WHFB to AoS that people hate so much? I've never seen WHFB, but I've seen games of AoS and they look like a lot of fun, so wondering at the issue here.

I feel it was less about the game and more, as others have said, the massive shift in genre and expectations. AoS1 was a perfectly fine, if rather simple, game, but was one of the most mismanaged releases GW has ever done, and soured me on the hobby for several years. Understand that when I’m generally positive about how GW handles things nowadays, it’s because I’m comparing to how AoS1 was put out.

I feel the major issue was that the change occurred with basically no warning: in the year or so up to it you had 5 expensive (even by GW standards) supplemental books put out called ‘the End Times’. These should have been a fun send off, but they never actually said ‘we are retiring WHFB at the end of this’, so when they ended the game line a month or so after releasing the last, without announcing what was next, people were left very confused. In hindsight, the name is obvious, but it wouldn’t be the first or last time GW released something implying major changes and didn’t follow through (looking at you Psychic Awakening).

Rules wise, the shift to a straight roll to hit and to wound based on weapon (rather than comparing to the opponent’s stats) was a major shift, as was the change to round bases. The special rules also seemed to mock the players who had been invested in their existing armies, such as getting Bretonnian players to pretend to ride a horse. These were intended by the writers as a fun extra, but reports suggest management meddling meant it ended up being the core product.

There’s a pretty good insight into how messed up the AoS release was in an interview on Goonhammer, here: https://www.goonhammer.com/the-goonhammer-interview-with-james-hewitt-part-1-age-of-sigmar-and-40k/

[LeSwordfish]

Warhammer Fantasy was a complicated tactical game, which included a lot of balance for competitive play and a very specific tone in the lore. It was very tactical, with positioning and resource/risk management very important.

AOS is a much simpler game designed to be easier to pick up and play, and AOS1 was even simpler. At release, it had essentially no rules suitable for competitive balancing at all. The tone of the lore was wildly different, and classic characters were originally tied to risible special rules. Positional play was essentially meaningless, and most of the tactical complexity came in through listbuilding, which was, initially, fairly hollow.

I enjoy playing AOS a lot, but it's a very different game to WFB, and in a way that people who loved old WFB often didn't like. (I think someone compared the difference as chess to checkers. Neither is a bad game but I suspect if you told Gary Kasparov he could only play checkers he'd be peeved. And to play checkers with his favourite pieces he'd have had to leapfrog his opponent to get Kinged.) In particular, those differences were most pronounced in the early days, and GW lost a lot of goodwill.

Like I said, I enjoy AOS. I've played it at the competitive level. But I don't think I'd recommend it to a WFB die-hard, even in it's current state, at least not beyond "well, you've got the models, might as well give it a shot".

[LCP]

I feel it was less about the game and more, as others have said, the massive shift in genre and expectations. AoS1 was a perfectly fine, if rather simple, game

That might have been something you could credibly say after it got the first handbook that patched it, but absolutely not on the day it released. AoS1.0 was fire-in-a-rubbish-bin, are-they-trolling-us bad, even putting all the joke rules about getting rerolls if you got your willy out aside.


No way to balance armies against each other. 10 skavenslaves = 10 ogres. Take 9 ogres instead and the skaven player gets a handicap for outnumbering you.
Models that legally couldn't throw attacks unless you overlapped bases.
Summoners who could summon summoners who could summon summoners who could...
The ability for 1 player to take an arbitrarily large number of turns before the other player got to take 1.


That's an interesting interview for sure, though.

[Adrastos42]

[SNIP]

In hindsight, the name is obvious, but it wouldn’t be the first or last time GW released something implying major changes and didn’t follow through (looking at you Psychic Awakening).



To be fair to those who didn't realise (including me, as I recall), it also was not the first time GW had run the End Times narrative, compete with Archaon, new models, and new rules. There was definitely precedent for this not being the actual end.

And yeah, AoS started to get much better once they actually had points costs and so on, but that start was....not great.

I do wonder how much things might have changed if Total War: Warhammer had come out before WHF was finished.

[Blackhawk748]

I do wonder how much things might have changed if Total War: Warhammer had come out before WHF was finished.

That was the other reason not to suspect that WHFB was dying, because Total War Warhammer had been announced and killing the tabletop game that inspired it would be dumb.

But this is GW and the release condition of AoS says everything it needs to about this era.

[LCP]

As a WFB fan who 100% got suckered into buying the ET books - it was crystal clear from about Book 2 at the latest that they were heading for a major shake-up of the setting and the game. Major characters were being killed off, major locations were being destroyed, the rules were evolving in ways that were clearly pointing at something beyond 8th edition. I never thought they were going to end up back at the status quo ante - I just didn't anticipate that they would actually explode the planet and make a new setting with almost 0 continuity with the old.

[Cheesegear]

Or relative to the thread: Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 2. Or Dawn of War 1 to Dawn of War 3. Or Dawn of War 2 to Dawn of War 3. The shift in each of those games was quite big.

DoW 1 was a fairly pedestrian RTS with a weird resource system. The fact that it had many expansions and QoL improvements helped it's longevity significantly. Soulstorm was a huge improvement to the game and I'm pretty sure gave it a second life.

DoW 2 to this day is one of my favourite games, ever. A hybridised RPG/RTS, that I wish there were more similar games. The multiplayer was...Frustrating though. I didn't like the multiplayer.
- Retribution kind of took out the RTS element. I'm not going to say I didn't like Retribution. But it just wasn't the same.

- The Last Stand was added at some point, which was a good mode. But had a very frustrating progression system. A PvE co-op mode, but your team-mates' gear is limited by their level (effectively time spent). Cool. You get paired with some Level 6s and that's game. But each Champion has their own progression system, and you have to level up (remember, time spent) with each of them, individually? FMD. Anyway, I liked Last Stand somewhat, even if the matchmaking is/was terrible.

DoW 3 was more like DoW 2's multiplayer - jarring for me, personally and I didn't like it. Oddly, a close example might be WarCraft 3? But I liked WC3. I did not like DoW3.
Although I will admit that a lot of my dislike for DoW 3, comes from love of DoW 2, and I know I'm not alone on that.


I just didn't anticipate that they would actually explode the planet and make a new setting with almost 0 continuity with the old.

I don't remember what release era was like.
But currently 'The World That Was' is mentioned well, more than zero times. There is some continuity (none of it matters, though), now. I can't tell you if it was there on release.

Mannfred has an entire audio book series. I did listen to those and I didn't hate them. He knows he's responsible for...Everything. Prisoner of the Black Sun was mid-ish 2015, and the rest of The Realmgate Wars after that.

[LCP]

that's why I said 'almost'

[Fergie0044]

Ah DoW. I spent a LOT of time with that game. Dark Crusade was the peak for me, I remember really disliking Soulstorm and quickly going back to DC. Why did you think SS was so good? As much as I loved DoW, I suspect it wouldn't hold up so well if I was to go back now, very much a product of its time.

DoW 2 on the other hand has the potential to be a timeless classic. Bringing together the 40k universe with the near perfect RTS base that the Company of Heroes games were built on.

DoW 3 looked awful, and at that point in my life time was limited so I never tried it.

[Destro_Yersul]

That might have been something you could credibly say after it got the first handbook that patched it, but absolutely not on the day it released. AoS1.0 was fire-in-a-rubbish-bin, are-they-trolling-us bad, even putting all the joke rules about getting rerolls if you got your willy out aside.

The thing that exemplifies AoS1 for me was one of those special rules. It stands in my memory as a symbol of everything that was wrong with that entire release; if your army included Settra the Imperishable, and you had to kneel for any reason during the game, you immediately lost. It is the only 'game' I have ever seen where you could accidentally lose by going to retrieve errant dice.

[Eldan]

As a WFB fan who 100% got suckered into buying the ET books - it was crystal clear from about Book 2 at the latest that they were heading for a major shake-up of the setting and the game. Major characters were being killed off, major locations were being destroyed, the rules were evolving in ways that were clearly pointing at something beyond 8th edition. I never thought they were going to end up back at the status quo ante - I just didn't anticipate that they would actually explode the planet and make a new setting with almost 0 continuity with the old.

Yeah, that's the thing, it was a huge shakeup even during the end times.

That said, a lot of people still expected this was going to be something like what 40k had in the last few years. Abadon's 13th crusade happens, the galaxy is hacked in half by the eye of terror, Ynnead is born, Guilliman returns, that kind of thing. Still the same world, but with an advanced timeline.

For the first two books, it looked like that. All the long-hinted at major shakeups were happening, but for some reason, all at once. Nagash, Archaon, Malekith, etc. And yes, named characters died, but they didn't start with the major ones.

Then they started killing everyone. Systematically. Imagine if someone opened up Lexicanum for 40k, got a list of all named characters from all novels for every faction, and wrote a short death scene for every one of them. Like, take this:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ultramarines#Notable_Members_of_the_Ultramarines
And go: Calistes: Eaten by Tyranids. Garus: stomped on by a chaos titan. Saul Invictus: shot with a plasma cannon.

That's what the books felt like. Not only that, but some characters (granted, characters of subfactions who hadn't been important for decades, but still) went out like utter chumps. I thought some of the ideas were quite interesting. Like the big shake up in Phoenix King lore. But then you also got entire nations killed off in a paragraph where they did nothing to stop chaos. I liked Kislev. The Old Widow of Kislev should at least temporarily stop the chaos invasion, that's her entire deal. Nah, forgot about that.

That already started to destroy a lot of goodwill before they even announced a new world and edition.


Then we went from a 300 page rulebook to a 2 page rulebook. With no points mechanism or similar, where the game just told you to bring equal number of models. One chaos knight, one goblin? Yeah, sure! Where we went from ten pages of terrain and formation rules to "all models move freely".

[LCP]

The thing that exemplifies AoS1 for me was one of those special rules. It stands in my memory as a symbol of everything that was wrong with that entire release; if your army included Settra the Imperishable, and you had to kneel for any reason during the game, you immediately lost. It is the only 'game' I have ever seen where you could accidentally lose by going to retrieve errant dice.

The one positive thing you can say about them is that they were at least factorisable. If you didn't like them (and who did) you could ignore them and nothing else depended on them. The thing that stuck with me the most about the rules at release was how much necessary stuff was missing.

[Durazno]

I was frustrated with Dawn of War 3 because it felt like each and every unit expected me to give my full attention to using their fiddly micro abilities as though they were a MOBA character. Jain Zar's abilities were kind of neat, but I had a hard time taking full advantage of them while fighting on two other fronts.

[Blackhawk748]

Ya, the End Times started off ok. I was one of the people that figured they were gonna kill off a few characters from each Faction to make room for new people. Get some real badass scenes where two of them kill each other, stuff like that.

Ya, no. A handful got epic stuff, most died like a redshirt.

Still like how Settra went down.

Still hate what they did to Mannefred.

[Eldan]

Also "Here's a list of mysteries in the setting the players have been discussing for 20 years". And then they again just went down the list confirming all of them.

[Hootman]

The thing that exemplifies AoS1 for me was one of those special rules. It stands in my memory as a symbol of everything that was wrong with that entire release; if your army included Settra the Imperishable, and you had to kneel for any reason during the game, you immediately lost. It is the only 'game' I have ever seen where you could accidentally lose by going to retrieve errant dice.

I...actually kind of love that one. First time I'm seeing it. Now, granted, I have always refused to take anything AoS-related seriously because of what they did to my beloved sandy boney boyz, but seeing something crazy like "Settra does not kneel. If you, his vessel into this tabletop game, even so much as crouch so as to put yourself below another, you immediately lose the game. Settra leaves the field, disgusted with your weakness." in the game would have brought me a twisted joy. It could be fun to try to convince/dramatically order other folks at the shop to retrieve your dropped dice, or tie your shoe for you...

If the game is a total joke. Beer, pretzels, that sort of thing. But never in a competitive scene, obviously.

The one special rule I always vaguely remember is that you got a bonus for playing Empire if you had a moustache (either natural or worn).

[Eldan]

Yeah, there were a few like that. I vaguely remember a dwarf rule involving having a beer?

It was just kind of weirdly tonally inconsistent. I've seen sillier rules in Beer and Bretzel Games, so if someone made Munchkin: the Tabletop, I could see it.


I think it's more that some people felt made fun of. The world was just blown up, all our favorite characters were dead, GW gave us two pages of clearly incomplete rules, but hey, here's a funny joke about Imperial Generals with moustaches.

[LCP]

It would be bad rule-writing even if the history hadn't been there. Some of the joke rules might have been reasonably fun the first time you ever played them. After that... if someone forgets Settra's rule and has to get something from off the floor, are you really going to say "gotcha, I win, pack away this game we spent an hour setting up"? If the rule says you have to sing "I'm a little teapot", are you going to make your opponent go through with that every time, or after a while are you just going to treat it as if they had done it without making them do it?

Others of the joke rules were difficult or impossible to use if you were not able-bodied and/or male, and that's bad even the first time.

[Destro_Yersul]

I...actually kind of love that one. First time I'm seeing it. Now, granted, I have always refused to take anything AoS-related seriously because of what they did to my beloved sandy boney boyz, but seeing something crazy like "Settra does not kneel. If you, his vessel into this tabletop game, even so much as crouch so as to put yourself below another, you immediately lose the game. Settra leaves the field, disgusted with your weakness." in the game would have brought me a twisted joy. It could be fun to try to convince/dramatically order other folks at the shop to retrieve your dropped dice, or tie your shoe for you...

If the game is a total joke. Beer, pretzels, that sort of thing. But never in a competitive scene, obviously.

The one special rule I always vaguely remember is that you got a bonus for playing Empire if you had a moustache (either natural or worn).

I get why they did it, and I enjoy Settra memes as much as the next Tomb Kings aficionado, but...

For how long is it going to be fun being an imperious jerk to the people around you? Especially for your opponent, who now has to put up with retrieving your dropped dice or what have you. The rule is obviously a joke, and trying to make the game less serious and more fun is something I'm all for, normally, but it didn't feel good. It felt rushed and kinda disrespectful. Like "hey, we blew up the world and characters you all spent years getting invested in. You can have this, instead! We blew it all up. For this."

[LeSwordfish]

Sounds like the kind of thing that would be really fun in a White Dwarf article for Open Play - give you a specific special rule for each hero or something and you and your opponent both have to abide by them for a casual game.

[Dragonus45]

As a WFB fan who 100% got suckered into buying the ET books - it was crystal clear from about Book 2 at the latest that they were heading for a major shake-up of the setting and the game. Major characters were being killed off, major locations were being destroyed, the rules were evolving in ways that were clearly pointing at something beyond 8th edition. I never thought they were going to end up back at the status quo ante - I just didn't anticipate that they would actually explode the planet and make a new setting with almost 0 continuity with the old.

As a notorious and proud AOS hater I may as well weigh in here. Same, around the time they did the big shakeup for Elf lore and had them all become one faction I thought that was so damn cool I started buying into the game against despite being so broke I had to by my hobbies off plasma donation money, and despite my all time favorite fantasy faction Bretonnia getting set on fire off screen like chumps. I thought this was going to be a major change going into a new edition and a new status quo to make the game a bit more accessible. What I got was a lot of my money wasted and one of my favorite settings strangled to death in a manner so embarrassingly badly written and insultingly poorly thought out I had to wonder if they hired a random child who had eaten a bag of sugar to outline it. I won't to go into the general issues of AOS on launch and the hilarity of things like Sigmarines, but it could have been the best game ever made with rules printed on pure gold written in mithril letters by Sigmar himself and it would have been leaving the gate with handicap. What it turned out to be was just insult to injury at that point really. I dropped GW official products pretty much entirely till Sisters.

[Eldan]

Sounds like the kind of thing that would be really fun in a White Dwarf article for Open Play - give you a specific special rule for each hero or something and you and your opponent both have to abide by them for a casual game.

Our game store used to have the Easter Game(s), a specific joke event. Some years, it was a humongously huge multiplayer 40k apocalypse event that went for 2 days, but sometimes also a team tournament for fantasy. Once even Mordheim. It always had the silliest rules, whatever the store owner could come up with, and most people brought strange experimental lists. We still fondly remember the game with the rampaging Bunny monster in the middle of the field that flattened a titan.

Those rules would have fit right in there. Used once. In an event that everyone agreed was a joke game beforehand.

[Forum Explorer]

As a notorious and proud AOS hater I may as well weigh in here. Same, around the time they did the big shakeup for Elf lore and had them all become one faction I thought that was so damn cool I started buying into the game against despite being so broke I had to by my hobbies off plasma donation money, and despite my all time favorite fantasy faction Bretonnia getting set on fire off screen like chumps. I thought this was going to be a major change going into a new edition and a new status quo to make the game a bit more accessible. What I got was a lot of my money wasted and one of my favorite settings strangled to death in a manner so embarrassingly badly written and insultingly poorly thought out I had to wonder if they hired a random child who had eaten a bag of sugar to outline it. I won't to go into the general issues of AOS on launch and the hilarity of things like Sigmarines, but it could have been the best game ever made with rules printed on pure gold written in mithril letters by Sigmar himself and it would have been leaving the gate with handicap. What it turned out to be was just insult to injury at that point really. I dropped GW official products pretty much entirely till Sisters.

I'm curious if you got into 9th Age.

[Blackhawk748]

As a notorious and proud AOS hater I may as well weigh in here. Same, around the time they did the big shakeup for Elf lore and had them all become one faction I thought that was so damn cool I started buying into the game against despite being so broke I had to by my hobbies off plasma donation money, and despite my all time favorite fantasy faction Bretonnia getting set on fire off screen like chumps. I thought this was going to be a major change going into a new edition and a new status quo to make the game a bit more accessible. What I got was a lot of my money wasted and one of my favorite settings strangled to death in a manner so embarrassingly badly written and insultingly poorly thought out I had to wonder if they hired a random child who had eaten a bag of sugar to outline it. I won't to go into the general issues of AOS on launch and the hilarity of things like Sigmarines, but it could have been the best game ever made with rules printed on pure gold written in mithril letters by Sigmar himself and it would have been leaving the gate with handicap. What it turned out to be was just insult to injury at that point really. I dropped GW official products pretty much entirely till Sisters.

Hi, I did this, but in the edition right before the End Times. I got into Vamprie Counts, actually how I found Mantic as I wanted cheaper zombies, and during the End Times I bought an entire VC army (with a Nagash even) and a all their cool End Times bits even.

Then 2 months after I got it they killed the game. Got to play a single game with them. Was incredibly pissed.

Now they are my Undead army for Kings of War and they've been having a grand old time.

Still upset about Mannfred.

[Eldan]

I'm curious if you got into 9th Age.

I did. I'm on the team. Background writer, Wiki editor, German translator and odd job person.

[Dragonus45]

I'm curious if you got into 9th Age.

By the time I was really aware of it it was kind of dead. I got into Heroclix and a couple of other games that needed less buy in and hobby work until more recently when Conquest really pulled me in.

[9mm]

I'd say AoS got away from the silly rules but Battlescroll: The Hunt still exists.

[Brookshw]

Gotta say, $300 for Ash Wastes seems so absurd, I'm continuously amazed at GW.

[Blackhawk748]

Gotta say, $300 for Ash Wastes seems so absurd, I'm continuously amazed at GW.

...good lord.

Whats all in it?

[Wraith]

...good lord.

Whats all in it?


26 plastic miniatures, each supplied with the appropriate Citadel bases: (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/necromunda-ash-wastes-eng-2022)
– 12 House Orlock models, including two Outrider Quads
– 14 Ash Waste Nomads, including four Dustback Helamites

– An array of modular Ash Wastes terrain including:
- 2x Ash Wastes Hab Building
- 1x Large Platform
- 2x Small Platform
- 5x Walkways
– Double-sided gaming mat
– All of the dice, tokens, cards, and templates needed to play
– Rules for the weapons and fighters included in the box

So the minis for the two factions are roughly equivalent to two Combat Patrols in size and price ($150 each) and then the two small buildings, a couple of ramps, the reversible mats, dice, tokens and books are "free". When you add it up like that it almost seems like sort-of reasonable value, and then you have to ask: What in God's name are we doing paying $150 for a Combat Patrol of 10 guys and a vehicle/walker?

[Blackhawk748]

So the minis for the two factions are roughly equivalent to two Combat Patrols in size and price ($150 each) and then the two small buildings, a couple of ramps, the reversible mats, dice, tokens and books are "free". When you add it up like that it almost seems like sort-of reasonable value, and then you have to ask: What in God's name are we doing paying $150 for a Combat Patrol of 10 guys and a vehicle/walker?

No, no, no. You. I don't pay 150 bucks for 10 dudes and a four wheeler.

I pay 30 dollars for like 20 Romans and then another 10 bucks for guns and kitbash like a sensible person.

[Brookshw]

and then you have to ask: What in God's name are we doing paying $150 for a Combat Patrol of 10 guys and a vehicle/walker?

What indeed. I bought $500 worth of gift cards from my local gaming store in the early days of Covid when everything was shut down, originally I was thinking of using them on Old World, but the way GW is going I may just give that idea up and go 9th age or something else entirely.

[Wraith]

The Squats arrive on Necromunda, giving us the first look at a League of Votann squad. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/06/revealed-squat-prospectors-hit-the-motherlode-in-the-ash-wastes/?fbclid=IwAR1rJfXcB9PEoCzJ8SnvfTaU0yOerJ_Em6gRqIlL anN_-6u63yYgyMfbhG0)

Well... Kind of. In the lore, the Ironhead Prospectors aren't a part of the Leagues, they're refugees who broke off and landed within the Imperium, on Necromunda. Still, they look similar enough to the first Leaguer that was revealed (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/26/take-a-first-look-at-leagues-of-votann-rules-with-this-hearthkyn-warrior/) that we can probably make a decent assumption on what the rest will look like from it. A sort of "Space Marine armour with a mix of Space Marine and Genestealer Cult weapons", kind of thing. There's a joke on Reddit where any mention of the mini's is met with a cry of "Rock and stone!" (https://store.steampowered.com/app/548430/Deep_Rock_Galactic/) but every time I see something for these guys I'm less and less sure that it's a joke and not just a literal description.

Necromunda being their first true appearance both does and does not make sense, to me - the first Squat in 25 years was a Necromunda Bounty Hunter (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Grendl-Grendlsen-Squat-Bounty-Hunter-2018) after all, but with the Ash Waste nomads also due out this weekend it seems like a very crowded schedule for the game that so far has only proved reasonably popular. A Kill Team can't be far behind, I think, but I'm mildly surprised that they didn't show up there first.

[9mm]

There's a joke on Reddit where any mention of the mini's is met with a cry of "Rock and stone!" (https://store.steampowered.com/app/548430/Deep_Rock_Galactic/) but every time I see something for these guys I'm less and less sure that it's a joke and not just a literal description.


Gonna be honest, the only time I've ever seen sci-fi space dwarves that didn't look like Deep Rock Galactic and the like was the original Gay Leather Bar Biker Gangs of the original Squats.

Meanwhile I stare at the 30k reveals and wonder if being slightly smaller would bother me to much to make a chaos 40k army with that stuff.

[LeSwordfish]

I love the look of the 30k reveal, definitely getting the big box and some heavy weapons. I'm very hopeful for more plastic models in future, especially breachers and the Predator.

[druid91]

The Squats arrive on Necromunda, giving us the first look at a League of Votann squad. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/06/revealed-squat-prospectors-hit-the-motherlode-in-the-ash-wastes/?fbclid=IwAR1rJfXcB9PEoCzJ8SnvfTaU0yOerJ_Em6gRqIlL anN_-6u63yYgyMfbhG0)

Well... Kind of. In the lore, the Ironhead Prospectors aren't a part of the Leagues, they're refugees who broke off and landed within the Imperium, on Necromunda. Still, they look similar enough to the first Leaguer that was revealed (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/26/take-a-first-look-at-leagues-of-votann-rules-with-this-hearthkyn-warrior/) that we can probably make a decent assumption on what the rest will look like from it. A sort of "Space Marine armour with a mix of Space Marine and Genestealer Cult weapons", kind of thing. There's a joke on Reddit where any mention of the mini's is met with a cry of "Rock and stone!" (https://store.steampowered.com/app/548430/Deep_Rock_Galactic/) but every time I see something for these guys I'm less and less sure that it's a joke and not just a literal description.

Necromunda being their first true appearance both does and does not make sense, to me - the first Squat in 25 years was a Necromunda Bounty Hunter (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Grendl-Grendlsen-Squat-Bounty-Hunter-2018) after all, but with the Ash Waste nomads also due out this weekend it seems like a very crowded schedule for the game that so far has only proved reasonably popular. A Kill Team can't be far behind, I think, but I'm mildly surprised that they didn't show up there first.

I dunno about your groups.... but Necromunda is actually more popular than 40k among my friend group.