Best ways for a rogue to help their party sneak?

[SangoProduction]

I reviewed Stealth Synergy teamwork feat. Either way you read it, it's the single best feat for Stealth that isn't Extra Magical Talent. Either everyone's adding *all* their bonuses to their highest roll. Or everyone's getting super advantage while in sight of one another... An ironic condition for stealth.
It averages close to rolling natural 20, as you approach 10 teammates (and actual natural 20 is a coin flip)... Though that is probably more than most groups. But even one additional member averages close to an expected 13-15. And almost guarantees you won't roll 1 on your highest die. 1/400, 1/8000, 1/160,000 etc, etc. Considering that just one bad roll means you lose the stealth, that's disproportionately potent. Same with one good perception check, barring DM allowance and PC quick thinking. But can't change that.

And everyone can do mutual Aid Another checks for +2 (per ally) to that dang paladin who refuses to take off his armor, so you're all just having to puppet him around to muffle the plates. (Assuming no Aid Another builds. Because... those are boring. Although if someone took the Helping Purring feat, you guys can aid a second time as a free action.)

There are also more magical means of helping the party sneak... but that's not a Rogue thing to do. Not stereotypically rogue, at any rate.
What else can the rogue do to help?

[Telonius]

Convince that Paladin that they're putting the team at risk with their noisy armor. You know a guy who'll fix up his full plate to make it just a little bit quieter. (Muffling armor option, from Underdark p.66, Circumstance bonus to Move Silently). Extremely cheap at 300gp. Get it for him, and don't charge him any gp. (You'll be cashing in on it in other ways, when you bring it up later to get him to go along with some scheme or other). Probably update-able to Pathfinder, given Move Silently was rolled into stealth.

[Gruftzwerg]

There are also more magical means of helping the party sneak... but that's not a Rogue thing to do. Not stereotypically rogue, at any rate.
What else can the rogue do to help?

Why exclude magic (items)?
I mean, it depends on the rogue and the team setup. If the rogue goes for UMD, a(n eternal) wand of Silence always comes in handy. Cast it on one of your mates and everything should be fine. The rogue can now even sneak a lil ahead without getting distracted by the noises his own teammates (would normally) make.

[SangoProduction]

Why exclude magic (items)?
I mean, it depends on the rogue and the team setup. If the rogue goes for UMD, a(n eternal) wand of Silence always comes in handy. Cast it on one of your mates and everything should be fine. The rogue can now even sneak a lil ahead without getting distracted by the noises his own teammates (would normally) make.

Because it's not a "traditionally" rogue thing to do. And it becomes less of "what can a rogue do" and more of "what spell helps the ... oh invisibility is cool." That's not a particularly interesting answer.

[Gruftzwerg]

Because it's not a "traditionally" rogue thing to do. And it becomes less of "what can a rogue do" and more of "what spell helps the ... oh invisibility is cool." That's not a particularly interesting answer.

Ok, I get you point of view. It's just that for me rogues are the core class that has been first optimized (by the 3.5 community overall) specifically for UMD use. And many rogue guides have a special UMD section. That's why I always associate em with UMD. But I can see how opinions on this can vary.. ^^

[SangoProduction]

Ok, I get you point of view. It's just that for me rogues are the core class that has been first optimized (by the 3.5 community overall) specifically for UMD use. And many rogue guides have a special UMD section. That's why I always associate em with UMD. But I can see how opinions on this can vary.. ^^

I appreciate the understanding.

[Drelua]

I've never really been a fan of teamwork feats, the bonus is good but convincing your whole party to take the same feat just so you can be a bit sneakier might be tough. A fighter can spare the feats, but a Barbarian or a Paladin, or most full casters, don't have so many to spare. If I'm playing a sneaky character I tend to take advantage of that -1 on perception checks per 10 feet. Have the party hang a fair ways back and their low stealth rolls won't be as much of a problem. And, if they do get noticed, the enemies will either rush right past you to get to your friends, giving you a chance to warn them and maybe sneak attack someone, or if they get to your party without passing you you should be able to move into a flank fairly easily.

I would also suggest shoving your party into a portable hole, but I see that's not the sort of answer you're looking for.

[SangoProduction]

I've never really been a fan of teamwork feats, the bonus is good but convincing your whole party to take the same feat just so you can be a bit sneakier might be tough. A fighter can spare the feats, but a Barbarian or a Paladin, or most full casters, don't have so many to spare. If I'm playing a sneaky character I tend to take advantage of that -1 on perception checks per 10 feet. Have the party hang a fair ways back and their low stealth rolls won't be as much of a problem. And, if they do get noticed, the enemies will either rush right past you to get to your friends, giving you a chance to warn them and maybe sneak attack someone, or if they get to your party without passing you you should be able to move into a flank fairly easily.

I would also suggest shoving your party into a portable hole, but I see that's not the sort of answer you're looking for.

It works if it works.
(I more had a problem with solutions that relied on spells / magic effects, rather than just any magic items at all.)

[Drelua]

It works if it works.
(I more had a problem with solutions that relied on spells / magic effects, rather than just any magic items at all.)

Fair enough. It would be pretty great for the bad guys to think they caught you sneaking around, then you open up a hole in the wall and a whole adventuring party tumbles out. You better know how much air they have though, would be a shame if they all suffocated in there.

[SangoProduction]

Fair enough. It would be pretty great for the bad guys to think they caught you sneaking around, then you open up a hole in the wall and a whole adventuring party tumbles out. You better know how much air they have though, would be a shame if they all suffocated in there.

They knew the risks. Plus that's why we steal the diamonds.

[Elder_Basilisk]

If only the rogue had a way to grant stealth synergy to the party without taking a cavalier level or three.

[SangoProduction]

If only the rogue had a way to grant stealth synergy to the party without taking a cavalier level or three.

Oh right! Yes! Yes! Yes!

The Cooperating purring feat lets you share your teamwork feat in a small area for the round(s) that you pur. Which I find highly amusing. The guard hears the purring, goes off to find a cat, and wonders where it came from... as he comes back to a ransacked office.

[Gruftzwerg]

Oh right! Yes! Yes! Yes!

The Cooperating purring feat lets you share your teamwork feat in a small area for the round(s) that you pur. Which I find highly amusing. The guard hears the purring, goes off to find a cat, and wonders where it came from... as he comes back to a ransacked office.

If dipping is allowed. How about a skill monkey rogue with a dip into Marshall to give CHA to skill rolls?

[SangoProduction]

If dipping is allowed. How about a skill monkey rogue with a dip into Marshall to give CHA to skill rolls?

What's that do to help?

[Gruftzwerg]

What's that do to help?

Pick the minor aura that gives CHA modifier to DEX skills. Having a high CHA score is not that uncommon for rogues. Helps (you and) your allies with Move Silently, Hide, Tumble and other DEX based skills.

If you want to be something like a support rogue, a dip into Marshal is imho justified. Maybe go even 3 lvls for a second minor aura to switch to. e.g CHA mod to flanking dmg or CHA mod to INT/CHA skills if you want to extend the support for your allies.

Theoretically you could dumb DEX ( at the cost of AC, ranged hit, Initiative mod..) for a better CHA mod if taken to the extreme. (but I wouldn't really suggest it)

edit: and wasn't there a maneuver in ToB (to help your allies sneak better)?

[YellowJohn]

I am currently AFB, so apologies that I can't be more helpful. Either the PHB2 or DMG2 has an option that allows one character to take a penalty on a skill and give everyone who can see them a smaller bonus to that skill. Stealth (move silently?) is the specific example they use.

[SangoProduction]

I am currently AFB, so apologies that I can't be more helpful. Either the PHB2 or DMG2 has an option that allows one character to take a penalty on a skill and give everyone who can see them a smaller bonus to that skill. Stealth (move silently?) is the specific example they use.

Oh??? Well shucks, that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

[MornShine]

There's a few options that exist, but are not particularly useful:

The Nightsong Infiltrator and Nightsong Enforcer prestige classes are thematically what you're looking for, teamwork-focused rogues. However, both of them give small bonuses at best.

Nightsong Infiltrator gives bonuses to allies versus traps, but also has a feature where by studying a 10x10 area for an hour, can grant all allies +2 on a variety of infiltration skills including Hide and Move Silently.

The Nightsong Enforcer grants +2 (+4 at 7th level) to hide and move silently to allies within 30ft, and has a +20 spot/listen to keep track of allies.

An Exemplar can take a penalty of up to her class level on skill checks to grant allies a bonus equal to half the penalty (or the whole penalty at 8th level), and gives some bonuses to make room for penalties.

The Savant base class allows a Savant to just flat-out replace an allies' skill ranks with their own, but doesn't mitigate Armor Check Penalties or anything else. The downsides: to get both Hide and Move Silently as options requires four levels, and the range is only 5ft + 5ft per four levels, so all of your allies have to pretty close together. One the upside, Invisibility Sphere.

DMGII has Teamwork Benefits, including the Infiltration benefit which allows full-speed stealth and nothing else; and Companion Spirits, which are similar magic items but have a very different flavor and feel, including the Shadow Companion which grants a 'pool' of Hide/Move Silently bonuses, and rounds of Silence and Invisibility, for the party to partake of.

That's all I've got for now.

[RSGA]

It requires either being a psi-rogue or having a manifester in the team, but a rogue can contribute up to 10 ranks for making shards, which give all the way up to a +10 circumstance bonus for 10 rounds or one skill use (whichever comes first) for 500g. Or perhaps the smaller, more usable +4 for 80 g. No need for skills or other requirements, just a standard to use and have the bonus waiting for the rolls.

[Maat Mons]

Assuming you're only opposed to using wands and scrolls to emulate a Wizard, and not to all forms of magic item use, in Pathfinder, Int-boosting items give skill ranks while worn. A Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 only costs 4,000 gp, and it can give the wearer max ranks in Stealth, if that's the skill it's attuned to. There's also a Scarlet and Blue Sphere Ioun Stone, for a more expensive, but slotless version. You can put it in a Wayfinder or embed it in your body if you don't like it circling your head.

[Faily]

If it's Pathfinder, a simple Invisibility spell goes a long way to help the clunky party-members since it *does* give +20 to Stealth checks (+40 if standing still).

[Drelua]

They knew the risks. Plus that's why we steal the diamonds.

True. And if you need the party's help, great, if not, and there's enough loot, maybe you just forget about them for a while, keep it all to yourself. That makes me wonder how you'd escape from a portable hole, would teleportation do it or would you need a plane shift? If they have to plane shift and land 5d% miles away, you could be long gone by the time they get back. And if not, well, if you're in this position, they'd probably have a hard time finding you anyway.

(Disclaimer: I in no way endorse doing any of the above to an unsuspecting group.)

[YellowJohn]

Oh??? Well shucks, that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

FOUND IT!

It was in Complete Adventurer, p.96 - Individual Events

If you have 5+ ranks in a skill, you can take a -4 penalty to give all friends in 30' who can see & hear you a +2 Circumstance bonus.
If you have 15+ ranks, you can take a -10 penalty to give a +5 circumstance bonus.

Talk to your DM about points in between.

You should also check out the 'Infiltration' teamwork benefit in DMG2, p.192;
you can all move at full speed without taking the -5 penalty, and you can always see each other as though you weren't hiding.