4 PCs, one base class. What do you build? [Archive]

NotPrior

2022-03-11, 06:21 AM

Probably either paladins or wizards. What we want is a class which can fill every single role at least to some extent- frontliners, damage dealers, disablers, and someone with healing for the good old healing yo-yo.

Paladins can do pretty much everything at least reasonably well- they're tough, they do a lot of damage, some oaths have good access to disables, they can all do social, and they heal yo-yo with the best of them. There's not really anything they lack except good AoE options and range.

Wizards also do everything, and they do it all really well provided the bladesinger and the Abjuration wizard manage to frontline effectively. The only exception is healing, which would have to be done by potions.

Any all-martial or half caster other than paladin is, in my opinion, right out since the party will lack tools provided by proper spellcasting, lack healing, lack AoE (except maybe for ranger), and also lack the ability to just hammer through everything with absurdly high saves.

There might be a good bard option but I don't care for them due to personal dislikes and so honestly know little about them.

Druids.... could work. Maybe. I feel raw damage would suffer a lot. Warlock could function well but would probably need multiple hexblades since nobody else can take a punch. All hexblades might even be the best plan if you went with warlocks.

Sorcerers dont have any healing problem thanks to divine soul and clerics of course out heal everyone except edge case druid builds, but relying entirely on magic with no good basic attacks (bladesinger) may turn out to be a mistake. What do they do once the magic resistant bosses with +1 billion dex saves and three legendary resistances arrive if the class doesn't have normal attacks? Fall back on attack roll spells? Are there any good attack spells at high level?

Bobthewizard

2022-03-11, 06:59 AM

Wizards also do everything, and they do it all really well provided the bladesinger and the Abjuration wizard manage to frontline effectively. The only exception is healing, which would have to be done by potions.

Eberron's Mark of Healing halflng wizards make excellent healers.

So
Abjuration Mark of Warding Dwarf
Bladesinger
Divination Mark of Healing Halfling
Evocation for blasting

NotPrior

2022-03-11, 07:22 AM

Eberron's Mark of Healing halflng wizards make excellent healers.

So
Abjuration Mark of Warding Dwarf
Bladesinger
Divination Mark of Healing Halfling
Evocation for blasting

Good point, I'd forgotten all about dragonmarks (and also the entire Artificer class but shush).

If you were allowed to use the marks (which to be fair is a big if since not every campaign is set in Eberron) that makes wizards definitely the best class for this.

Perhaps unsurprising that the class based around flexibility and utility is the best class for fulfilling every single role of a party, even if they can't do it all at the same time these days.

Khrysaes

2022-03-11, 07:22 AM

4 Monks.

Halfling, Gnome, Goblin, and Kobold.

Long Death, Shadow, Mercy, and Open Hand.

With Monsters of the multiverse allowing you to select small for MANY races, you don't have to have these four.

nickl_2000

2022-03-11, 07:43 AM

4 Monks.

Halfling, Gnome, Goblin, and Kobold.

Long Death, Shadow, Mercy, and Open Hand.

Any combat that you don't feel you could win, you could easily run away from. No one would ever be able to keep up with this party running full tilt away

Khrysaes

2022-03-11, 07:51 AM

Any combat that you don't feel you could win, you could easily run away from. No one would ever be able to keep up with this party running full tilt away

And i now have an order of volos guide kobold way of shadow monks.

Pildion

2022-03-11, 07:52 AM

I'd too have to jump on the Warlock band wagon for a one class group. Hexblade for front line, Celestial for heals, Genie for blasting and Great Old One for some control. All with Devil Sight of course haha.

Unoriginal

2022-03-11, 08:33 AM

Fighter.

Battlemaster (STR), Battlemaster (DEX), Psy Warrior, Samurai.

da newt

2022-03-11, 09:15 AM

I'd bet a clever group of players could make a good team out of any base class, but in a high magic world the pure martial classes would have to work harder.

4 Artificers - sure, heck they could just set up shop
4 Pali - you bet, smite for days and do the auras stack?
4 Druids - they might be one of the toughest lvl 1-20 teams
4 Cleric - heck yeah, one of the OG single class parties
4 Wizards - might struggle at low levels, but once they get rolling look out
4 Sorcerers - see Wizard and pick your spells wisely as a team
4 warlocks - piece of cake with EB icing
4 bards - they can do anything and talk their way through most
4 rangers - team sneak and kite
4 monks - ninja strike force
4 rogues - all sneak attack, all the time
4 fighters - basic blender
4 barbarians - hulk smash

I don't think there is a class you couldn't use (assuming all material is available like races, feats, marks, guilds, etc )

RogueJK

2022-03-11, 09:36 AM

Relatively easily done with Warlocks, Bards, Druids, or Artificers, and also doable with Clerics and Paladins, as well as potentially Wizards (especially if Dragonmark races are allowed).

Warlocks are probably the most adaptable class, both in and out of combat. All will want CHA and CON, but you can split up the secondary stat/skill focus from there to have a well-rounded skillset. Something like:
Celestial Tomelock Healer/Support/Backup Frontliner (WIS) - ala Celestial Generalist
Hexblade Bladelock Melee/Primary Frontliner/Face (STR)
Fathomless or Fiend Tomelock Blaster/Summoner (INT)
Dao Genie Chainlock Ranged/Controller/Scout (DEX)

Artificers are a very close second when it comes to adaptability:
Battle Smith Frontliner (STR)
Armorer Switch-Hitter/Scout (DEX)
Artillerist Blaster/Ranged/Face (CHA)
Alchemist Healer/Support (WIS)

Same with Druid:
Moon Druid Frontliner (STR)
Shepherd Druid Summoner/Healer/Face (CHA)
Land Druid Blaster/Controller (INT)
Stars Druid Ranged/Scout (DEX)

And Bards aren't too far behind:
Lore Bard Blaster/Healer/Support (WIS)
Swords or Valor Bard Frontliner (STR)
Creation Bard Summoner/Scout (DEX)
Eloquence Bard Controller/Face (INT)

Cleric is a little bit tougher, but still doable:
Arcana Cleric Face/Frontliner (CHA) - ala Arcana Cleric Frontliner
Knowledge Cleric Utility/Support/Skill Monkey (INT)
Tempest Cleric Blaster/Backup Frontliner (STR)
Twilight Cleric Support/Scout (DEX)

Paladin is similar:
Redemption Caster/Face (INT)
Conquest or Vengeance Frontliner (STR)
Ancients Ranged/Controller/Scout (DEX)
Crown Support/Healer (WIS)

Wizard is slightly less doable, unless the Mark of Healing is allowed, or the DM is generous with rests and healing potions. Something like:
Mark of Healing Halfling Transmuter Healer/Support - ala LudicSavant's "Jorasco Physician" (WIS)
Bladesinger Scout/Secondary Frontliner (DEX)
Evoker Blaster/Summoner/Face (CHA)
Moderately Armored Hobgoblin Abjuration Wizard Frontliner - ala "Iron Wizard" (STR)

For the Artificer/Druid/Bard/Cleric/Paladin groups, all would benefit greatly from one member taking the Ritual Caster Wizard feat.

Dork_Forge

2022-03-11, 09:40 AM

I'd go Fighter for this, everyone would have a short rest self-heal and a good amount of hit points, with enough ASIs to diversify and subclasses providing ample variety.

Rune Knight, Battle Master, Samurai, Psi Warrior.

Artificers are a close second though with how diverse the subclasses are.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 09:43 AM

Thank you very much! XD <3 and I hope to see examples for each class!

Let's see. Rogue.

The Back-Alley Surgeon: Thief with the Healer feat (which they can uniquely use as a bonus action).
The Dashing Swordsman: Obvious reference is obvious. Swashbuckler frontliner with reaction sneak attacks and spammable charm that doesn't let people know they've been charmed.
The Headless Horseman: Phantom Rogue on phantom steeds.
The Arcane Trickster: Because Arcane Trickster.

One or more of them need to take Ritual Caster, which will give them Phantom Steeds (which synergize amazingly with Steady Aim), Telepathic Bond (great for coordinating heists and such), and Find Familiar (great for giving Advantage for sneak attacks, or feeding people potions, or the like. As always familiars have a million uses).

The Thief has Use Magic Device which increases the chances that magic items will help them cover their gaps (like getting rid of certain status effects).

The Swashbuckler picks up maneuvers to get reaction attacks, and due to their level 3 feature will consistently qualify for sneak attack off-turn.

If you want Booming Blade for any of them you can make 'em a High Elf or Kobold (who can also grant Advantage to everyone with a bonus action). Arcane Trickster just gets it naturally.

Naanomi

2022-03-11, 10:00 AM

Artificer could do it...

Warforged Armorer (tank)
Goblin Armorer (scout)
Warforged Artillerist (damage)
... Either a Small-Race Battlesmith (Skirmisher) or ??? Alchemist (Healer) to round it out?

Skrum

2022-03-11, 10:06 AM

Any combat that you don't feel you could win, you could easily run away from. No one would ever be able to keep up with this party running full tilt away

At least they'd have that going for them, I guess? This party would be terrible. Equally terrible, I suppose, so I guess the DM would just scale down the entire game.

Dork_Forge

2022-03-11, 10:07 AM

One or more of them need to take Ritual Caster, which will give them Phantom Steeds (which synergize amazingly with Steady Aim), Telepathic Bond (great for coordinating heists and such), and Find Familiar (great for giving Advantage for sneak attacks, or feeding people potions, or the like. As always familiars have a million uses).

Are you just assuming that spell scrolls or Wizard spell books with rituals will be guaranteed loot here?

At least they'd have that going for them, I guess? This party would be terrible. Equally terrible, I suppose, so I guess the DM would just scale down the entire game.

Why do you think a party of Monks would be terrible?

Wasp

2022-03-11, 10:11 AM

Why do you think a party of Monks would be terrible?
Because Monks are quite bad compared to everyone else?

Skrum

2022-03-11, 10:16 AM

Ok so flavor-wise, I think some of these classes will constrain options. A party of 4 clerics makes sense if they're all of the same deity. It makes no sense at all if they aren't. Same with paladin and monk (if they're all supposed to be of the same school/monastery/martial arts school). Bards and warlocks too, but to a lessor extent. Especially with cleric, warlock, or paladin, it would probably be more likely they'd be ENEMIES with characters of that class but different patrons/deities.

Fighters, rogues, rangers, barbarians, wizards, and artificers are pretty open-ended and different subclasses mingling mostly makes sense (though I think certain options for the barbarian make less sense if they're all supposed to be from the same tribe).

Sorcerers are entirely open, unless you're talking about the PC's being related.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 10:17 AM

Because Monks are quite bad compared to everyone else?

Yeah this. Monks are horrible.

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-11, 10:27 AM

"We can see in the dark, nobody else can, and it's hilarious."
"...This is why nobody likes warlocks."
*chuckle*

Why do you think a party of Monks would be terrible? I have a similar question.
Mercy + Four Elements + Sun Soul or Shadow + Open Hand or Kensei:
That foursome looks to me to be pretty good, or, Kensei instead of Open Hand. While there's not major tank, there is probably enough CC here.

Above and beyond that, they travel light and can change clothes to blend in to any situation. One of them needs to have some emphasis on the social skills in that regard, be it deception or persuasion.

Burley

2022-03-11, 10:29 AM

I think I'd build 4 artificers. In my experience, Artificers are good all-arounders and excellent backup [insert party role here]. Each artificer specialty fills a specific party role, while still being a decent backup [everything else].

I don't think it'd be a particularly strong party. But, I think it would be a particularly successful party, were it to hit the table. Obviously, if the players are knowledgeable and clever, there'd be a less overlap and probably some wombo-combos (experimental elixir on armorer for flying iron man suit). But, even with new players (or just unclever players), they'd get by just fine.

Catullus64

2022-03-11, 10:50 AM

A party of four Rogues could actually do some pretty impressive stuff, either in a conventional dungeon scenario or otherwise, and have a pretty cool theme setup. They approach a dungeon with guerrilla tactics, slowly and patiently picking off enemies with ambushes and hit-and-run attacks. Needless to say they would need to be played with far more coordination than any actual D&D party.

Thief. Expertise Round 1: Stealth, Thieves' Tools. Round 2: Athletics, Acrobatics. Feat Priorities: Healer, Mobile.

Inquisitive. Expertise Round 1: Insight, Perception. Round 2: Investigation, Stealth. Feat Priorities: Dungeon Delver, Observant

Swashbuckler. Expertise Round 1: Persuasion, Stealth. Round 2: Deception, Intimidation. Feat Priorities: Slasher, Tough, Actor

Arcane Trickster. Expertise Round 1: Sleight of Hand, Stealth. Round 2: Arcana, History. Feat Priorities: Eldritch Adept (Misty Visions), Ritual Caster.

The Inquisitive is naturally the party's eyes and ears. Between high passive detection and the ability to search as a bonus action, he can pick up traps and enemies at efficient action economy.

The Thief naturally works closely in tandem with the Inquisitive, disarming the traps that the Inquisitive notices, opening doors, and using stuff like caltrops and hunting traps to impede enemy movement. Again, bonus action features mean they can do all of this while Fighting. The Healer feat is a backup cushion for the damage that inevitably will happen.

The Swashbuckler is there for when things inevitably do go wrong, and you need a little direct combat skill. Also functions as chief party face. High initiative means he's often going to be the one moving into position to set up others' Sneak Attacks, since he can get them in close combat without an ally. (The Inquisitive can do this in a pinch as well).

The Arcane Trickster covers a number of bases, but the main job is to provide distractions and lures, so the party can maximize its ambushes and escapes. Mage Hand Legerdemain can do some pretty impressive things with creativity and teamwork.

Haven't worked out race exactly. The Inquisitive would likely be a Darkvision race. Swashbuckler would be some race that could grant proficiency in Scimitars (Drow?) because the Slasher feat is very valuable for that subclass, and Rogues natively lack access to a Sneak Attack-eligible slashing weapon. Maybe a Halfling for the Thief, but Mobile couldn't come soon enough; speed is everything for this group. But frankly, all Elves is probably a good setup.

Dork_Forge

2022-03-11, 11:02 AM

Because Monks are quite bad compared to everyone else?

Yeah this. Monks are horrible.

This is neither a fact, nor really a reason. What about Monks makes them lackluster as a party? Is it a concern about damage output, for instance?

I have a similar question.
Mercy + Four Elements + Sun Soul or Shadow + Open Hand or Kensei:
That foursome looks to me to be pretty good, or, Kensei instead of Open Hand. While there's not major tank, there is probably enough CC here.

Above and beyond that, they travel light and can change clothes to blend in to any situation. One of them needs to have some emphasis on the social skills in that regard, be it deception or persuasion.

Exactly, of the various roles one could fill most have some form of representation in the Monk class or a subclass. And anything that they lack can likely be filled in by a race or feat combination. Even tank wise all you need to do is throw Tough on a Kensei that gets the +2 AC bonus every round.

Unoriginal

2022-03-11, 11:09 AM

This is neither a fact, nor really a reason. What about Monks makes them lackluster as a party? Is it a concern about damage output, for instance?

In my experience, people who post about the Monk being "horrible" or "bad" without any factual data either read too many "the Monk is bad" threads or are trying to start one.

Or both.

In any case, it's unlikely they're interested in discussing it factually, let alone in a thread about1-class-parties.

diplomancer

2022-03-11, 11:13 AM

Warlocks work very well, unless the DM makes big dungeon crawls where no short rest is possible all the time. Consider; the game is balanced around getting 2-3 SRs per Long Rest, but a party of Warlocks can, in the right circumstances, easily fit 5-6 SRs in an adventuring day. They can basically Nova every combat, push through different challenges with different invocations (or optimize everyone in the party having Devil's Sight, as already mentioned), and so on.

Another one that I think could work well are Bards; their weak point is dealing damage. If dips are allowed, the Valor Bard could dip Paladin 2 and solve that issue, but if they are not, they will have to do in mostly through summons, (which would slow the game down), but it's doable.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 11:23 AM

For a Monk team, I'd consider bringing a team of Way of Shadow Monks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24890247&postcount=831). Those guys have gotten significant buffs by 2022, and Shadow Monks synergize with other Shadow Monks.

They come in with unimpeachable stealth checks (thanks to their dex and Pass Without Trace), have a good chance of getting Surprise and winning initiative (meaning the team basically gets two rounds of actions before the enemy does), move wherever they need to get to, and drop Silence and Darkness (making you deaf and blind, no save), followed by a barrage of blows on the same turn, all of which could be Stunning Strikes. Even if you have a good Con save, they can just keep making you save, over and over and over and over and over, and if you lose once... well, that's bad. They can even drop Stunning Strikes on their OAs if you're trying to wander out of their darkness/silence. All while you're deaf and blind and unable to cast most spells.

But even just the "be Deaf and Blind and Surprised while getting punched" will be difficult for many to deal with. And they have the resources to just spam that. The stuns being reserved for if something's particularly worrisome.

They also have a way out of a lot of things. They can out-move a lot of control or kiting. They basically just don't take damage from anything that allows a Dex save. They have poison immunity. They eventually have great saves across the board. They have at-will, non-spell bonus-action teleportation (as long as there's areas of dim light or darkness around). They have Stillness of Mind. And they won't often be targetable by things that require a target you can see. And if they identify an enemy that can deal with their defenses, well, that's when they can just unleash a burst of Stunning Strikes.

So yeah. Tell those guys Monks suck. :smalltongue:

Psyren

2022-03-11, 11:39 AM

4 Bards in a band :smallcool:

1) Eloquence: Face/Control, Lead Singer
2) Lore: Skills/Healing/Blasting, Lute
3) Swords: Melee/Tank, Dancing/Drumming
4) Creation: Offtank/Range, Fiddle

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-11, 11:58 AM

ender241

2022-03-11, 12:03 PM

Ninja for the win.

Careful. I've heard those guys aren't technically ninjas.

Wasp

2022-03-11, 12:06 PM

This is neither a fact, nor really a reason.
Yes, I agree. But be honest: You knew why this was posted, so why not start with "I disagree" instead of pretending to not know why someone posted that such a hyperbolic statement 😉

And, yeah, in this scenario it's probably more difficult to get a viable team of barbarians than monks. Even though I think personally a team of 4 bards or clerics would probably be more fun for me because it's easier to simulate standard D&D group constellations. But everyone has different tastes 😉

Dork_Forge

2022-03-11, 12:14 PM

Yes, I agree. But be honest: You knew why this was posted, so why not start with "I disagree" instead of pretending to not know why someone posted that such a hyperbolic statement 😉

And, yeah, in this scenario it's probably more difficult to get a viable team of barbarians than monks. Even though I think personally a team of 4 bards or clerics would probably be more fun for me because it's easier to simulate standard D&D group constellations. But everyone has different tastes 😉

I try to not presume why people have a certain opinion, but I never said I didn't know, or allude to it. I simply asked why they said that, and when presented with "Monks are bad" pointed out that wasn't a reason.

If you leave things like that then it becomes 'general knowledge' or 'consensus' despite it not being anchored in much besides opinion and preference.

Arguably this is one of the times that Monks can really shine through: There won't be any fight back against taking a short rest, and when the entire party has a ridiculous movement speed/mobility then the dynamics of how you adventure can change altogether.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 12:23 PM

So, what might I take to augment the Way of Shadow team?

Way of Shadow Monks synergize with other Way of Shadow Monks (because being deaf and blind with no save is scary). So there's nothing wrong with taking more than one.

Way of Mercy seems like the most obvious addition. Since its healing resources are on a short rest cooldown, it can use them sort of like a "1-hour-ritual" if it needs to. Or it can use it in-combat for action-economy-efficient yo-yo healing. And they're no slouch in combat either, able to apply a no-save Poisoned condition or using mini-smites.

Also, unlike something like a Thief Healer, they actually can cure some status effects, or even raise the dead (though they need to wait all the way to level 17 for resurrection).

Astral Self could work as well. They can natively see through magical darkness, and can communicate silently to coordinate the ninja stealth missions. They also could use Wisdom-based grappling to pull people into areas of Silence or the like.

Kensei is another candidate probably worth looking at. The Way of Shadow Monks don't natively fly, and Kensei can make good archers.

Open Hand could knock people around the map and make the number of saving throws creatures have to deal with even more overwhelming, but aside from their 3 and 17 features they're not getting a lot, and they haven't benefited as much as some others from the Monk buffs.

Long Death I'd skip over (among other things, Hour of Reaping wants people to see you. And this party is very rushdown-y, we would rather have them using their ki on proactively destroying the enemy than waiting to eat more hits).

I don't see any particular value in Drunken Fist here.

Four Elements or Sun Soul could add in some AoE damage, but not like, good AoE damage. So eh.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 12:25 PM

Yes, I agree. But be honest: You knew why this was posted, so why not start with "I disagree" instead of pretending to not know why someone posted that such a hyperbolic statement 😉

And, yeah, in this scenario it's probably more difficult to get a viable team of barbarians than monks. Even though I think personally a team of 4 bards or clerics would probably be more fun for me because it's easier to simulate standard D&D group constellations. But everyone has different tastes 😉

If you have a big enough hammer, everything is a nail. 4 barbs would be a lot of hammer. The main difficulty a barb party would suffer from is healing. They wouldn't really have any, meaning every combat would be a damage race. Barbs deal a lot of damage (and can take a lot of damage), so that would generally work in their favor, but sometimes it wouldn't and they'd be struggling for sure.

For a party of 4 barbs, I would probably go for a grapple-focused barb (to go after specific, particularly threatening opponents), a bear-totem barb that uses a shield, a tundra-aura Storm Herald, and a zealot pure damage build.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 12:33 PM

If you have a big enough hammer, everything is a nail. 4 barbs would be a lot of hammer. The main difficulty a barb party would suffer from is healing. They wouldn't really have any, meaning every combat would be a damage race. Barbs deal a lot of damage (and can take a lot of damage), so that would generally work in their favor, but sometimes it wouldn't and they'd be struggling for sure.

I'd say the main difficulty of an all-Barb party would be that you have to worry about whether enemies will let you play the game. Barbarians tend to be quite vulnerable to control and other shenanigans. I'd be interested to see how one would build a Barbarian party to avoid such a fate.

They are also vulnerable to mook swarms, and resource attrition (not only because of lack of healing, but because Rage is a very limited resource that simply cannot be stretched -- you simply cannot have enough to last 6+ combats until Tier 4).

Wasp

2022-03-11, 12:33 PM

I try to not presume why people have a certain opinion, but I never said I didn't know, or allude to it.
In that case I apologize.

Kurt Kurageous

2022-03-11, 12:37 PM

Do you want to remember this as the best fun ever? Don't power game, power chord!

Be all Bards.

Be a band. Tour. Seek fame, glory and second place behind Motley Crue.

The other choices are just posers! Rock on!!!

Skrum

2022-03-11, 12:38 PM

I try to not presume why people have a certain opinion, but I never said I didn't know, or allude to it. I simply asked why they said that, and when presented with "Monks are bad" pointed out that wasn't a reason.

If you leave things like that then it becomes 'general knowledge' or 'consensus' despite it not being anchored in much besides opinion and preference.

Arguably this is one of the times that Monks can really shine through: There won't be any fight back against taking a short rest, and when the entire party has a ridiculous movement speed/mobility then the dynamics of how you adventure can change altogether.

OK I will clarify my position, so hopefully this can be laid to rest and not derail the thread.

I think monks struggle to perform any particular roll. They are MAD, they have too little HP and AC to be a dedicated melee character, they burn through their resources way too quickly (without Ki or on turn where they don't spend Ki, they are extremely sub-par), they struggle to find useful magic items, and they have a real chokepoint around use of their bonus action. Their eclectic collection of abilities and movement speed make them an interesting, possibly even compelling choice for a 5th character in a group, but they will be worse than many other character options if asked to step into any roll in a dedicated way.

This is my opinion. I think there is quite a bit of evidence that I'm right in aggregate (which I why I have this opinion), but 1) none of that adds up to monks be unplayable, or 2) nor does it mean that people can't play and enjoy monks, or 3) that there isn't some monks builds that have notable and effective strengths.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 12:44 PM

I'd say the main difficulty of an all-Barb party would be that you have to worry about whether enemies will let you play the game. Barbarians tend to be quite vulnerable to control and other shenanigans. I'd be interested to see how one would build a Barbarian party to avoid such a fate.

They are also vulnerable to mook swarms, and resource attrition (not only because of lack of healing, but because Rage is a very limited resource that simply cannot be stretched -- you simply cannot have enough to last 6+ combats until Tier 4).

It'd be swimming upriver, no doubt about it. Barbarians are probably the least flexible class in the game, so a party of barbarians would make a very swingy, two-true-outcome kind of campaign. Throw random **** at them, and yeah, they probably fairly quickly get something that soft or hard counters them and they're done (what would they even do about fliers?).

On the other hand, a tailored campaign of low magic and wilderness survival would be fun and thematically fitting for a party of barbs. Not to say they'd "win" such a game, but they would do quite well in a more grounded game without a ton of enemy casters and magical traps and the like.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 02:06 PM

It'd be swimming upriver, no doubt about it. Barbarians are probably the least flexible class in the game, so a party of barbarians would make a very swingy, two-true-outcome kind of campaign. Throw random **** at them, and yeah, they probably fairly quickly get something that soft or hard counters them and they're done (what would they even do about fliers?).

That was my thoughts as well. Which makes me wonder why you're so down on Monks.

They can more easily lean into roles such as archer (Kensei) or healer (Mercy), and have less in the way of hard counters.

they burn through their resources way too quickly (without Ki or on turn where they don't spend Ki, they are extremely sub-par)

Aren't Barbarians also very sub-par when they run out of resources? So much of what they do is attached to Rage, and they don't have enough to go for 6 encounters, let alone more.

If we have a 2-short rest day, here's how much ki a Monk can use each time a Barbarian rages:

L2: 3 ki per time a Barb rages
L3: 3
L4: 4
L5: 5
L6: 4.5
L7: 5.25
L8: 6
L9: 6.75
L10: 7.5
L11: 8.25
L12: 7.2
L13: 7.8
L14: 8.4
L15: 9
L16: 9.6
L17: 8.5
L18: 9
L19: 9.5
L20: N/A (Barbs get infinite rages, Monks get some ki recharged each combat)

they struggle to find useful magic items There certainly are some itemization concerns, depending on what is made available.

This is my opinion. I think there is quite a bit of evidence that I'm right in aggregate (which I why I have this opinion)

Care to share? I'd like to see. :smallsmile:

Skrum

2022-03-11, 03:07 PM

That was my thoughts as well. Which makes me wonder why you're so down on Monks.

Barbs can natively do at least one thing really well: hit really hard, and get hit really hard. It takes very little game knowledge to make a durable, heavy hitting frontline combatant. *And that's exactly what barbs are sold as.* Their lack of options becomes a real detriment at higher levels or to more experienced players who want more tactical choices to make, but I don't think the role the barbs can fill should be underestimated. Being able to do what barbs can get you awfully far.

Monks do not have any of these qualities.

Aren't Barbarians also very sub-par when they run out of resources? So much of what they do is attached to Rage, and they don't have enough to go for 6 encounters, let alone more.

This could very easily be the type of games I play in, but I have never seen a barb run out of rages. One rage lasts for an encounter, barring weird or unfortunate circumstances. Which means at by 3rd level they can rage for 3 entire encounters/long rest. At 6 they can rage for 4 encounters. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a time where one of the barbs didn't have a rage when they needed it. Maybe our group is long-rest heavy and that's shading my opinion.

Monks on the other hand, at around that level, can easily blow through their Ki points in a single encounter *if they actually want to do the stuff that brings them to parity with other classes.* Yes it comes back on a short rest, but I've seen far more instances of going 2-3 battles without a short rest than 4-5 battles without a long one.

Care to share? I'd like to see. :smallsmile:

This is the heart of my problem with the monk (to add to what I said in the comment above): monks are only situationally as good as other classes in similar roles. I think we can agree their base numbers are the weakest among martial-oriented classes. Lower HD, HP, AC, and damage dice. For single actions or maybe as long as a round, they draw equal - by spending Ki. Turn 3 attacks into 4. Move extra-EXTRA fast. Give disadvantage to all attacks against them. Force a save-or-suck. These are very strong abilities - but they are not nearly enough to make up for the insane hole monks are starting from. In a way, it's a similar reason for why I think barbs shouldn't be underestimated: numbers matter. Barbs have big numbers. Monks have small ones.

Because monks have so many abilities, I think it's easy to get bamboozled when looking them over. It's too easy to imagine all the situations where a monk can do X to respond to Y. But both the action economy and their resource economy mean they can't actually do all that. And meanwhile, the barb is just going to be plugging away with far more damage than even a flurry'ing monk could hope to deal, while eating attacks that would turn the monk to paste.

Sigreid

2022-03-11, 03:15 PM

Druid. There's no role you can't build a druid to fill by 3rd level. They really have unparalleled early and mid range versatility with tools for tanking, crowd control, healing, wilderness survival and running away.

NotPrior

2022-03-11, 03:19 PM

Some of these choices are... bizarre, for want of a better word. Any answer is good for fun, but that's because for fun the only real answer is "whatever class is my favourite because I like playing that".

Any martial pick is as bad a choice for this as you can get. Would the party be unplayable? Of course not, this is 5e, there is no really worthless class, and you could 100% have fun with a 4 barbarian party, provided you could have fun playing as a barbarian. It might even be a fun team to DM for since its abilities are very very predictable- fights are either the enemies cheese the party or it's a straight numbers race, no sudden nonsense out of nowhere.

But... a full team? Of martials? Martials filling every role?

No access to save-or-suck, no access to healing, probably no class support for being the face, no access to area of effect, and except for rogues no skills which let you circumvent these missing fields. Out of combat you will never have access to spell utility- you will never teleport or turn invisible.

Third-casters do not make up the distance here, either. EKs and ATs just don't have the slots to bridge the gap until late in the game, the point where most campaigns and all official modules have closed out.

Monks and half-casters are little better, although they usually have at least one of those missing fields covered.

Unoriginal

2022-03-11, 03:24 PM

I think we can agree their base numbers are the weakest among martial-oriented classes.

We cannot.

Lower HD, HP, AC, and damage dice.

Lower than whose? Monks have HD equivalent to a Rogue, likely to have the same HPs, will have equivalent or higher AC bar some exceptions, and will have a much more reliable damage output than the Rogue.

So the criteria you chose yourself, the Monk is not the weakest. Without even taking into account what Monks can do.

Some of these choices are... bizarre, for want of a better word. Any answer is good for fun, but that's because for fun the only real answer is "whatever class is my favourite because I like playing that".

Any martial pick is as bad a choice for this as you can get.

Soooo... any answer is good, but any answer with martial is bad? Not only bad, but as bad as you can get?

Skrum

2022-03-11, 03:28 PM

We cannot.

Lower than whose? Monks have HD equivalent to a Rogue, likely to have the same HPs, will have equivalent or higher AC bar some exceptions, and will have a much more reliable damage output than the Rogue.

So the criteria you chose yourself, the Monk is not the weakest. Without even taking into account what Monks can do.

Yes, let me rephrase: the monk has the lowest numbers of all classes that are expected to be exposed to and survive melee combat. Happy now?

You're just taking my words and choosing to understand them in the least charitable way possible.

LibraryOgre

2022-03-11, 03:29 PM

Well, it can't be rangers, because you can only have 3 of them at one time. </old man joke>

Me, of course, it would be bards, since that's why I usually play.

nickl_2000

2022-03-11, 03:44 PM

Well, it can't be rangers, because you can only have 3 of them at one time. </old man joke>

Me, of course, it would be bards, since that's why I usually play.

I thought the ranger had to be aLONE Ranger.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 03:45 PM

Barbs can natively do at least one thing really well: hit really hard, and get hit really hard. It takes very little game knowledge to make a durable, heavy hitting frontline combatant. *And that's exactly what barbs are sold as.* Their lack of options becomes a real detriment at higher levels or to more experienced players who want more tactical choices to make, but I don't think the role the barbs can fill should be underestimated. Being able to do what barbs can get you awfully far.

Monks do not have any of these qualities.

Monks do lack that "takes very little game knowledge" thing. Barbarians are known for having a high floor (but low ceiling). Monks aren't. You can take nearly-random choices as a Barbarian and still come out as a kind-of-functional Barbarian, whereas doing the same thing as a Monk will... not work.

But lacking the ability to hit really hard? When you say something like that, I'm left wondering what kind of Barbarian's going to be putting a Kensei archer's damage to shame. :smallconfused:

Unoriginal

2022-03-11, 03:50 PM

Yes, let me rephrase: the monk has the lowest numbers of all classes that are expected to be exposed to and survive melee combat. Happy now?

Ah, so Rogues are not expected to be exposed to and survive melee combat.

Interesting thesis, what are your datas to back it up?

You're just taking my words and choosing to understand them in the least charitable way possible.

Even if I had done that, which I didn't, facts do not need charity to be factual.

LibraryOgre

2022-03-11, 03:54 PM

I thought the ranger had to be aLONE Ranger.

Nah. Despite the popular saying, you can have more than one ranger at a riot.

But not more than 3.

OTOH, I'd love to see a ranger subclass that worked out to light cavalry. I might have to make them, after I read up on mounted combat.

Dork_Forge

2022-03-11, 04:00 PM

OK I will clarify my position, so hopefully this can be laid to rest and not derail the thread.

I think monks struggle to perform any particular roll. They are MAD, they have too little HP and AC to be a dedicated melee character, they burn through their resources way too quickly (without Ki or on turn where they don't spend Ki, they are extremely sub-par), they struggle to find useful magic items, and they have a real chokepoint around use of their bonus action. Their eclectic collection of abilities and movement speed make them an interesting, possibly even compelling choice for a 5th character in a group, but they will be worse than many other character options if asked to step into any roll in a dedicated way.

This is my opinion. I think there is quite a bit of evidence that I'm right in aggregate (which I why I have this opinion), but 1) none of that adds up to monks be unplayable, or 2) nor does it mean that people can't play and enjoy monks, or 3) that there isn't some monks builds that have notable and effective strengths.

Thank you for explaining your reasoning, particularly the acknowledgements in that last paragraph. I don't agree with your reasoning, but appreciate you took the time to put it down.

Some of these choices are... bizarre, for want of a better word. Any answer is good for fun, but that's because for fun the only real answer is "whatever class is my favourite because I like playing that".

Any martial pick is as bad a choice for this as you can get. Would the party be unplayable? Of course not, this is 5e, there is no really worthless class, and you could 100% have fun with a 4 barbarian party, provided you could have fun playing as a barbarian. It might even be a fun team to DM for since its abilities are very very predictable- fights are either the enemies cheese the party or it's a straight numbers race, no sudden nonsense out of nowhere.

But... a full team? Of martials? Martials filling every role?

No access to save-or-suck, no access to healing, probably no class support for being the face, no access to area of effect, and except for rogues no skills which let you circumvent these missing fields. Out of combat you will never have access to spell utility- you will never teleport or turn invisible.

Third-casters do not make up the distance here, either. EKs and ATs just don't have the slots to bridge the gap until late in the game, the point where most campaigns and all official modules have closed out.

Monks and half-casters are little better, although they usually have at least one of those missing fields covered.

This post was really confusing to me, particularly as you seem to be defining 'martials' as Rogues, Fighters, and Barbarians, since you later talk about Monks and half casters separately. So before continuing I will state that I consider the following as martials based only on their main class features:

-Barbarians
-Fighters
-Monks
-Paladins
-Rangers
-Rogues

There's support in those classes, or accessible to those classes, for everything you listed. But I'll address what might be two of the less obvious ones:

Healing- Healer feat, Aasimar, and (if applicable) Mark of Healing Halflings can add healing into the mix for any teams struggling.

Face support- Just have a decent-good Cha mod and proficiency really covers this, but expertise is trivial to get and two different Fighter subclasses provide support for being a face by default, with maneuvers for it being added by Tashas.

Are you looking at subclasses and feats with regards to this, or just main class features?

NotPrior

2022-03-11, 04:13 PM

Soooo... any answer is good, but any answer with martial is bad? Not only bad, but as bad as you can get?

Yes.

Any answer to the question "what class is fun for an entire party" is equally good, because fun is what's up to you. You can come up with a cool background and motivation for literally any class- the last 4 survivors of a remote tribe out for revenge, 4 druidic agents sent by the circle to stop the X, 4 pilgrims travelling to Y to see the Z who get involved in the Q.

If you like the class, playing the class as a quartet will be fun. There are no dead weight classes who cannot cope with level appropriate encounters any more.

As an analysis of what is mechanically well-rounded? Yeah 4 martials will have difficulty. 4 barbarians will not be able to do anything meaningful from a distance. 4 fighters will lack access to most skills without burning feats. 4 rogues will struggle to take a punch. For all of these when they go down they stay down because they have no useful healing. They also lack utility spells, area of effect, or save-or-suck.

If you want to fulfil every role, or even most roles, martials are all a very bad choice because they don't have the ability to meet role requirements.

Dork_Forge

2022-03-11, 04:22 PM

If you want to fulfil every role, or even most roles, martials are all a very bad choice because they don't have the ability to meet role requirements.

This may have been true to a small degree when 5e came out, but hasn't been true for a long time now.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 04:27 PM

numbers matter. Barbs have big numbers. Monks have small ones.

Well, we can agree on the "numbers matter" bit at least.

Let's test this then. You said Barbs do lots of damage, and Monks do not have any of these qualities. So how about this, show me a Barbarian (e.g. I need to know its attributes, ASI choices, race, and subclass), pick a level, and then we'll see if we can do that with a Monk.

Unoriginal

2022-03-11, 04:30 PM

This may have been true to a small degree when 5e came out, but hasn't been true for a long time now.

Also there is no such things as "role requirement".

Having people with options make adventuring easier, true. But requirement? No such things.

For example, I've seen people do dungeons without AoEs (even with two casters in the group). Heck, I'm currently running a campaign where none of the PCs have AoEs.

NotPrior

2022-03-11, 04:42 PM

This post was really confusing to me, particularly as you seem to be defining 'martials' as Rogues, Fighters, and Barbarians, since you later talk about Monks and half casters separately. So before continuing I will state that I consider the following as martials based only on their main class features:

-Barbarians
-Fighters
-Monks
-Paladins
-Rangers
-Rogues

There's support in those classes, or accessible to those classes, for everything you listed. But I'll address what might be two of the less obvious ones:

Healing- Healer feat, Aasimar, and (if applicable) Mark of Healing Halflings can add healing into the mix for any teams struggling.

Face support- Just have a decent-good Cha mod and proficiency really covers this, but expertise is trivial to get and two different Fighter subclasses provide support for being a face by default, with maneuvers for it being added by Tashas.

Are you looking at subclasses and feats with regards to this, or just main class features?

Rogues, Fighters and Barbarians are the only true martials, yes. Monks arguably fall into this too, but ki is ki and eeeeeh I don't know which way to judge it.

Halfcasters are indeed not true martials, they can cast spells, and part of my point was that some halfcasters can indeed fill all roles- paladins are probably the best at this like I said- but true martials will struggle.

I'm looking at feats, subclasses and class features. Healer is the only feat I can recall which bridges the gap, and it's starkly limited. One return of health per person per short rest, which is nice at low levels, but rapidly becomes obsolete. It does give the ability to revive the downed, but only by a hair. Paladins, rangers, clerics, sorcerers, warlocks, druids, bards, and any caster with the mark of healing can all do that much better and still spend a feat on healer if they want, which is no more an opportunity loss for them than it is for the martials (excluding high level fighters).

As for face, I did specify class support. They can do it, but their class isn't going to help them, which means they do it strictly worse than classes which do have support. No martial class gets any benefit from charisma, so they're having to sacrifice a good save for their face stats. This isn't critical, but it is strictly worse than being a paladin or warlock who loses nothing by making charisma their tertiary stat, and is the same as a wizard making charisma their tertiary.

That's really my point. If a role isn't directly supported by a class/subclass it does it as well as any other class which has no direct support, and caster/halfcaster classes and subclasses are more varied in what roles they support.

Four barbarians (for example) could work, like I said there is no dead weight and no class is especially bad these days, but it would be strictly worse at everything except the barbarian's normal specific niche than 4 wizards would be. You can build a wizard to do anything except for heal or talk extremely well with the full support of the class or subclass. You cannot build a barbarian who attacks from range, casts utility spells, uses AoE, heals, imposes save-or-suck, or talks with the support of the class or subclass.

NotPrior

2022-03-11, 04:56 PM

This may have been true to a small degree when 5e came out, but hasn't been true for a long time now.

Alright. Build me level 10 a fighter who does better healing than a level 10 wizard.

Actually, I can simplify that. Find a fighter-specific feature before level 10 that gives them the ability to heal others. There could well be some, my knowledge isn't encyclopaedic, but I don't recall it. If there isn't one then a wizard is as good at healing as they are. If there is, good. Fighter is my favourite class.

That extends to everything, everything a PC could need to do, except for attack damage and taking hits which yes the fighter is much better at, probably better than the bladesinger/abjurer.

Also there is no such things as "role requirement".

Having people with options make adventuring easier, true. But requirement? No such things.

For example, I've seen people do dungeons without AoEs (even with two casters in the group). Heck, I'm currently running a campaign where none of the PCs have AoEs.

I'm sorry this is getting silly. I've said this about four times now.

You do not have to fulfil every role to have a working party. Any class can work and be fun as a quartet. You can have 4 mute, melee-only barbarians just going ham with axes where none of them even know what a healing kit is. To say there aren't roles at all however is absurd, and to say that martial classes and subclasses can meet these roles any better than halfcasters or casters generally can is a real stretch.

Naanomi

2022-03-11, 05:04 PM

Find a fighter-specific feature before level 10 that gives them the ability to heal others.
Level 3 Bannerete?

RogueJK

2022-03-11, 05:07 PM

Find a fighter-specific feature before level 10 that gives them the ability to heal others. There could well be some, my knowledge isn't encyclopaedic, but I don't recall it. If there isn't one then a wizard is as good at healing as they are. If there is, good. Fighter is my favourite class.

Purple Dragon Knight's 3rd level ability Rallying Cry:

"When you use your Second Wind feature, you can choose up to three creatures within 60 feet of you that are allied with you. Each one regains hit points equal to your fighter level, provided that the creature can see or hear you."

Battlemasters also have the Rally Maneuver, which grants Temp HP to others. That's kinda-like-but-not-quite healing.

NotPrior

2022-03-11, 05:19 PM

Purple Dragon Knight's 3rd level ability Rallying Cry:

"When you use your Second Wind feature, you can choose up to three creatures within 60 feet of you that are allied with you. Each one regains hit points equal to your fighter level, provided that the creature can see or hear you."

Battlemasters also have the Rally Maneuver, which grants Temp HP to others. That's kinda-like-but-not-quite healing.

Level 3 Bannerete?

...

I haven't thought about the Banneret since it came out, but that does indeed count. This might be the only situation where playing a PDK is actually a good choice.

It's not exactly great because it's only once per short, but it's a bonus action with a 60 ft range so it's essentially a better healing word. It's something, so yes I suppose they're better than wizards at this.

This is of course provided your DM allows you to use this on the unconscious, but it's something and it fits my requirements.

Temp hp is indeed different because it doesn't revive the downed, which is the purpose of most healing, and it doesn't help much in restoring health between fights since it's not what you might call a bottomless reserve. It does improve the ability to take hits, but that's what fighters are great at anyway.

RogueJK

2022-03-11, 05:21 PM

Ok, just because nobody has tackled Rangers yet:
Fey Wanderer Face/Support/Summoning (WIS/CHA)
Gloomstalker Ranged/Scout/Skill Monkey (DEX/INT)
Horizon Walker Frontliner (STR)
Swarmkeeper Control/Healing (WIS/DEX)

And here's some Fighters while I'm at it:
Mark of Healing Halfling Eldritch Knight Blaster/Support/Healing (INT)
Samurai Face (WIS/CHA) - using Shillelagh from either Wood Elf Magic or Magic Initiate Druid to be more WIS-SAD
Battlemaster Ranged/Scout/Skill Monkey (DEX)
Rune Knight Frontliner/Controller (STR)

Teaguethebean

2022-03-11, 05:22 PM

My friend is running a game where we are all human fighters who are part of a legion trapped in the feywild. Our characters aren't all that different mechanically but we are. Me HAM rune knight, Battlemaster archer, Samaria diplomat/duelist with fey touched for bless, and a Psi warrior who was part of special operation who has magic initiate for a familiar.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 05:24 PM

...

I haven't thought about the Banneret since it came out, but that does indeed count. This might be the only situation where playing a PDK is actually a good choice.

It's not exactly great because it's only once per short, but it's a bonus action with a 60 ft range so it's essentially a better healing word.

Healing Word can heal you when you're at 0hp. Banneret's heal cannot.

Temp hp is indeed different because it doesn't revive the downed,

...Neither do Bannerets.

Unoriginal

2022-03-11, 05:26 PM

I'm sorry this is getting silly. I've said this about four times now.

You do not have to fulfil every role to have a working party. Any class can work and be fun as a quartet. You can have 4 mute, melee-only barbarians just going ham with axes where none of them even know what a healing kit is. To say there aren't roles at all however is absurd, and to say that martial classes and subclasses can meet these roles any better than halfcasters or casters generally can is a real stretch.

You are the one who mentioned role requirement.

Of course healers exist. of course AoE-throwers exist.

That does not mean either is a *requirement* for a party.

Dork_Forge

2022-03-11, 05:28 PM

Rogues, Fighters and Barbarians are the only true martials, yes. Monks arguably fall into this too, but ki is ki and eeeeeh I don't know which way to judge it.

Halfcasters are indeed not true martials, they can cast spells, and part of my point was that some halfcasters can indeed fill all roles- paladins are probably the best at this like I said- but true martials will struggle.

Yeah we don't agree here, Paladins and Rangers have D10 Hit Dice, multiple armor profs, martial weapon prof, and Extra Attack at 5th level. The definition of martial isn't, at least in my opinion, completely incapable of casting spells. Possibly omitting Monks for Ki is also a little odd to me, it would throw them into their own category just because they have a unique resource.

I'm looking at feats, subclasses and class features. Healer is the only feat I can recall which bridges the gap, and it's starkly limited. One return of health per person per short rest, which is nice at low levels, but rapidly becomes obsolete. It does give the ability to revive the downed, but only by a hair. Paladins, rangers, clerics, sorcerers, warlocks, druids, bards, and any caster with the mark of healing can all do that much better and still spend a feat on healer if they want, which is no more an opportunity loss for them than it is for the martials (excluding high level fighters).

A party based in full martials is likely to not need as much healing to begin with, the all Fighter party would have Second Wind once per rest anyway, Barbarians have resistance etc.

You don't have to pick someone up at 1hp, you can opt to use the larger heal instead to pick them up at a decent chunk of hp. I'm not sure why you specify high level Fighters, their first bonus ASI comes online at 6th level, very reasonable to grab stuff. This is all ignoring race, which can help deal with this as already mentioned.

As for face, I did specify class support. They can do it, but their class isn't going to help them, which means they do it strictly worse than classes which do have support. No martial class gets any benefit from charisma, so they're having to sacrifice a good save for their face stats. This isn't critical, but it is strictly worse than being a paladin or warlock who loses nothing by making charisma their tertiary stat, and is the same as a wizard making charisma their tertiary.

PDKs and Samurais get help with Persuasion, Rogues get Expertise and the Swashbuckler directly benefits from Charisma.

That's really my point. If a role isn't directly supported by a class/subclass it does it as well as any other class which has no direct support, and caster/halfcaster classes and subclasses are more varied in what roles they support.

This isn't about doing something the best, it's about providing some coverage in an all X party, being able to cover something because of a feat doesn't diminish that it's still being covered. Especially when the design space for two martials is partially taken up by additional ASIs...

Also disagree with the casters covering more roles part, and I'm not considering half casters for this, as per my above definition.

Four barbarians (for example) could work, like I said there is no dead weight and no class is especially bad these days, but it would be strictly worse at everything except the barbarian's normal specific niche than 4 wizards would be. You can build a wizard to do anything except for heal or talk extremely well with the full support of the class or subclass. You cannot build a barbarian who attacks from range, casts utility spells, uses AoE, heals, imposes save-or-suck, or talks with the support of the class or subclass.

Two different Barbarian subclasses get utility spells, and just by virtue of having extra attack and martial weapons proficiency yes you can build a Barbarian that can attack from range. Though that wouldn't be a tactic you'd primarily use in most situations, they certainly can do it. There's an entire subclass that's based around AOE auras, and just off the top of my head the Beast path has a save or suck, though the table for the Wild Magic path probably has something.

Again, you're imposing the additional condition of needing healing or face support directly from the class, when those problems are easily addressed by feats, races, and backgrounds. You wouldn't be playing a martial without two of those things by default, so why exclude them?

Alright. Build me level 10 a fighter who does better healing than a level 10 wizard.

Actually, I can simplify that. Find a fighter-specific feature before level 10 that gives them the ability to heal others. There could well be some, my knowledge isn't encyclopaedic, but I don't recall it. If there isn't one then a wizard is as good at healing as they are. If there is, good. Fighter is my favourite class.

Purple Dragon Knight's Rallying Cry at 3rd level. It's not a good ability, but you set the bar incredibly low.

And this approach is very flawed IMO, this isn't a contest between classes, or at least it shouldn't be. It should be considering what each party needs to fulfill all 'roles' and that's contextual. A party of Fighters is going to require significantly less healing than a part of Wizards, because they have built in self-heals, a large Hit Die, and are more likely to have a higher AC.

It isn't as black and white as contextless white room comparison.

That extends to everything, everything a PC could need to do, except for attack damage and taking hits which yes the fighter is much better at, probably better than the bladesinger/abjurer.

If you really have this little faith in the Fighter to cover roles then I can only suggest, and I'm not saying you have to or must do this, but suggest reading the subclasses with a view for how they can work together as a party. This isn't something we normally do when building characters, so it's easy to discount or miss things. For example, the Rune Knight can give themselves, or another Fighter, advantage on various skill checks including face checks. They can do this whilst offering control and save or suck options. In fact I think the only role they don't somewhat touch on is healing others, and that's just one subclass that can divy their abilities out like an Artificer.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 05:32 PM

Ah, so Rogues are not expected to be exposed to and survive melee combat.

Interesting thesis, what are your datas to back it up?

Even if I had done that, which I didn't, facts do not need charity to be factual.

No. They're expected to be skirmishers. To wit, they have steady aim and cunning action, allowing them to easily hit with sneak attack at range and escape melee combat (among other uses), respectively. So I say again, you are intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying.

What point are you trying to make? Being disagreeable is all I see. My opinions are of course my own; you can play the game however you want. Ergo, if you don't agree with something I post, feel free to *constructively* respond. Snark and sarcasm is extraordinarily tiresome.

Dork_Forge

2022-03-11, 05:43 PM

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-11, 05:50 PM

Careful. I've heard those guys aren't technically ninjas. *golf clap*

Rogues, Fighters and Barbarians are the only true martials, yes.
And they do put raisins into their porridge.

Halfcasters are indeed not true martials Darnit, is there another raisin shortage? I blame COVID!
The Gloomstalker just called. He told me to remind you that the genre is Swords AND Sorcery.
He then hung up. Something about dreaded ambush on some {censored} on the internet. (https://semi-rad.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/xkcd-someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet.jpg)..

Unoriginal

2022-03-11, 05:51 PM

No. They're expected to be skirmishers. To wit, they have steady aim and cunning action, allowing them to easily hit with sneak attack at range and escape melee combat (among other uses), respectively.

And Monks aren't expected to be skirmishers?

What point are you trying to make? Being disagreeable is all I see. My opinions are of course my own; you can play the game however you want. Ergo, if you don't agree with something I post, feel free to *constructively* respond. Snark and sarcasm is extraordinarily tiresome.

Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. I have no issue wit people not liking Monks. I have no issue with people hating Monks.

I have issues with people presenting non-facts as facts.

"I do not like Monks" is an opinion. If you have it, it is not my business to say anything about it. "Monks are the weakest martials" is a non-fact presented as a fact. "Rogues are not expected to be exposed to and survive melee combat" is a non-fact presented as a fact.

Saying non-facts and then saying "it's just my opinion" does not work. It's true for facts about the game, just as for any kind of facts.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 05:53 PM

Well, we can agree on the "numbers matter" bit at least.

Let's test this then. You said Barbs do lots of damage, and Monks do not have any of these qualities. So how about this, show me a Barbarian (e.g. I need to know its attributes, ASI choices, race, and subclass), pick a level, and then we'll see if we can do that with a Monk.

Alrighty, let's go super basic and obvious:

Level 5 Bear Totem Barb, Variant Human
GWM for the bonus feat
Point-buy starting stats -
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 8 (I'm doing this off the top of my head; Wis might need to drop to 8. Not that it matters for this exercise)
Increase Str to 18 at level 4
Greatsword or Great Axe, doesn't matter that much
Base AC of 15, but when better armor (scalemail or better) can be secured, it'll go up to 16 or 17
55 HP

At 5 they'll have 2 attacks at +7, dealing 1d12+4
When raging it rises to 1d12+6 of course
Generally, you'll want to be attacking recklessly and using GWM. The correct time to do so is variable of course, but generally I like attacking once without it to try to get at least one hit, and using GWM on the second hit.

But anyway, let's assume an enemy AC of 16

Attacking with rage, adv., and GWM on the second attack:
First attack has a 84% chance to hit for an average of 13.5 damage
Second attack has a 57% of hitting for 23.5 damage

Put together, that's an average of 11.34 + 13.4 = 24.74 damage per round
Cleaving with GWM would up that a bit, but it gets more presumptive. Maybe it adds 1.5 extra attacks per combat, on average? That sounds about right, just seeing it in action. It's more likely come after using GWM, so it would be a GWM master attack for an additional.....20.1 damage/combat

Assuming a 4 round combat (I guess?) adds up to 119.06 damage per combat

I'm doing this quickly so the math might be wrong somewhere, but it at least passes the smell test, I think :smallwink:

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-11, 05:53 PM

Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. I have no issue wit people not liking Monks. I have no issue with people hating Monks.

I have issues with people presenting non-facts as facts.

"I do not like Monks" is an opinion. If you have it, it is not my business to say anything about it. "Monks are the weakest martials" is a non-fact presented as a fact. "Rogues are not expected to be exposed to and survive melee combat" is a non-fact presented as a fact. Some day, I am gonna buy you that beer. OK, two beers. :smallsmile:

Skrum

2022-03-11, 05:56 PM

And Monks aren't expected to be skirmishers?

Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. I have no issue wit people not liking Monks. I have no issue with people hating Monks.

I have issues with people presenting non-facts as facts.

"I do not like Monks" is an opinion. If you have it, it is not my business to say anything about it. "Monks are the weakest martials" is a non-fact presented as a fact. "Rogues are not expected to be exposed to and survive melee combat" is a non-fact presented as a fact.

And I suppose you get super angry when someone says "it looks like rain." Whatever, friend.

NotPrior

2022-03-11, 07:04 PM

You are the one who mentioned role requirement.

Of course healers exist. of course AoE-throwers exist.

That does not mean either is a *requirement* for a party.

That's right. You can build a party which has or lacks anything. So glad we agree.

I won't be replying to this particular point again because that marks about five times I've said "you do not have to fill all roles in a party and any class combination can work" and somebody has responded with "actually, you do not have to fill all roles in a party and any class combination can work".

Yeah we don't agree here, Paladins and Rangers have D10 Hit Dice, multiple armor profs, martial weapon prof, and Extra Attack at 5th level. The definition of martial isn't, at least in my opinion, completely incapable of casting spells. Possibly omitting Monks for Ki is also a little odd to me, it would throw them into their own category just because they have a unique resource.

If you define martials to include classes which can cast spells as part of their class (not subclass) then yes some martials are a fair choice for the 4 man party.

Honestly with monks I just don't care for them and don't learn about them as a result. I haven't had to run a game for one yet either.

A party based in full martials is likely to not need as much healing to begin with, the all Fighter party would have Second Wind once per rest anyway, Barbarians have resistance etc.

You don't have to pick someone up at 1hp, you can opt to use the larger heal instead to pick them up at a decent chunk of hp. I'm not sure why you specify high level Fighters, their first bonus ASI comes online at 6th level, very reasonable to grab stuff. This is all ignoring race, which can help deal with this as already mentioned.

You don't have to pick someone up at 1hp but the other methods only work once, and past very low levels the difference between 1 hp and 7.5 hp is effectively zero- if you take damage you probably take more than 7.5.

PDKs and Samurais get help with Persuasion, Rogues get Expertise and the Swashbuckler directly benefits from Charisma.

This isn't about doing something the best, it's about providing some coverage in an all X party, being able to cover something because of a feat doesn't diminish that it's still being covered. Especially when the design space for two martials is partially taken up by additional ASIs...

Oh yeah, the swashbuckler. That's a subclass that does fit the bill. I revise my statement to just fighters and barbarians then, since in both cases we're taking an opportunity cost. PDK and Samurai are better at it, but both are still disadvantaged by a high charisma instead of, say, a high dex or wis.

I specified high level because fighters and Rogues both get just 1 additional ASI before 12th- fighters at 6th, rogues at 10th. They have a slightly better ability than other classes to pick up free feats in the levels which are actually played.

Two different Barbarian subclasses get utility spells, and just by virtue of having extra attack and martial weapons proficiency yes you can build a Barbarian that can attack from range. Though that wouldn't be a tactic you'd primarily use in most situations, they certainly can do it. There's an entire subclass that's based around AOE auras, and just off the top of my head the Beast path has a save or suck, though the table for the Wild Magic path probably has something.

Again, you're imposing the additional condition of needing healing or face support directly from the class, when those problems are easily addressed by feats, races, and backgrounds. You wouldn't be playing a martial without two of those things by default, so why exclude them?

You can use feats, background and races to shore up weakpoints on barbarians, fighters and rogues. You know who else can do that? Every other class in the game, and many of them can do it better because the class actually supports what you're trying to do instead of being neutral at best on the subject.

The access to healing, talking etc provided by feats/races/backgrounds etc is the baseline that all classes meet. Every single class in the game can do that as well as each other, with a small advantage to fighters and rogues, which is arguably undone by their need for other feats. Some classes however do more things with their class features and cover more roles actively without having to dip into these all-class options.

It's the same for the barbarian's ranged attacks. Yeah, you can give them a bow, but their abilities mostly require melee, strength weapons, or both. You can do it but the class isn't helping you, at all. If your class doesn't help you do it you are at the base worst state you can be in, and the barbarian class barely helps. If barbarians are forced into a ranged engagement they will hit massively below their expected level.

And this approach is very flawed IMO, this isn't a contest between classes, or at least it shouldn't be. It should be considering what each party needs to fulfill all 'roles' and that's contextual. A party of Fighters is going to require significantly less healing than a part of Wizards, because they have built in self-heals, a large Hit Die, and are more likely to have a higher AC.

A party of fighters would surely need a roughly normal level of healing since it'll be a room full of fighters taking hits at the normal rate. Assuming a normal party mostly takes hits on the frontliners the rate at which a wizard/fighter/rogue/cleric would be hit compared to a 4 fighter party would be roughly the same. A party of wizards would indeed need more, and would be the biggest weakness of such a party.

If you really have this little faith in the Fighter to cover roles then I can only suggest, and I'm not saying you have to or must do this, but suggest reading the subclasses with a view for how they can work together as a party. This isn't something we normally do when building characters, so it's easy to discount or miss things. For example, the Rune Knight can give themselves, or another Fighter, advantage on various skill checks including face checks. They can do this whilst offering control and save or suck options. In fact I think the only role they don't somewhat touch on is healing others, and that's just one subclass that can divy their abilities out like an Artificer.

Rune knight is indeed the best on the list and goes a long way to help. I'm not sure it goes far enough, but it's a good start.

Bobthewizard

2022-03-11, 07:37 PM

This has maybe derailed into a specific class comparison thread, but I would like to ask a question. It seems to me any of the martial parties are going to struggle against an encounter of one or two controllers blocked by a bunch of mooks or a couple big meat shields. That seems to be a pretty normal encounter in games I've played. Usually the wizard/sorcerer/bard uses AOE or control to take out or engage the minions so the martial characters can get to the juicy filling that is the controller. Without the controller/blaster on your side, you'd have to hack through all the minions while their caster rains down spells on you.

Do others on here think a group of 4 fighters, monks, barbarians, or rogues are going to be fine in that scenario?

A party of fighters would surely need a roughly normal level of healing since it'll be a room full of fighters taking hits at the normal rate. Assuming a normal party mostly takes hits on the frontliners the rate at which a wizard/fighter/rogue/cleric would be hit compared to a 4 fighter party would be roughly the same. A party of wizards would indeed need more, and would be the biggest weakness of such a party.

I think a group of fighters is going take A LOT more damage in a day than a party of wizards since they can't avoid as many fights or as easily shut down enemies quickly. If you pop into a room of 25 skeletons, the wizard uses one fireball to take most of them out. Fighters have to cut through each one individually.

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-11, 08:09 PM

And I suppose you get super angry when someone says "it looks like rain." Whatever, friend. Not bluudy likely. I've been interacting with Unoriginal for about six years now, and have found quite the opposite to be true. Doesn't get all fussed about minor stuff.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 08:11 PM

This has maybe derailed into a specific class comparison thread, but I would like to ask a question. It seems to me any of the martial parties are going to struggle against an encounter of one or two controllers blocked by a bunch of mooks or a couple big meat shields. That seems to be a pretty normal encounter in games I've played. Usually the wizard/sorcerer/bard uses AOE or control to take out or engage the minions so the martial characters can get to the juicy filling that is the controller. Without the controller/blaster on your side, you'd have to hack through all the minions while their caster rains down spells on you.

Do others on here think a group of 4 fighters, monks, barbarians, or rogues are going to be fine in that scenario?

I think a group of fighters is going take A LOT more damage in a day than a party of wizards since they can't avoid as many fights or as easily shut down enemies quickly. If you pop into a room of 25 skeletons, the wizard uses one fireball to take most of them out. Fighters have to cut through each one individually.

I agree, to a point. With large groups of weak enemies, a fighter will have to cut through them all. But there's quite a bit of tactics that can massively improve their performance. Retreating to a choke point, positioning yourself with your team to minimize flanks, or best of all.... Targeting the boss. Op attacks simply aren't punishing enough to make it not worth it to run right passed the mooks to hit the bbeg, especially when you have high armor (fighter, paladin) or damage mitigation (barbarian) or zephyr strike (ranger).

9/10 times, burn down the boss and the mooks scatter.

Lack of AoE is a definite weak point, but it's not crippling, most of the time.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 08:14 PM

Not bluudy likely. I've been interacting with Unoriginal for about six years now, and have found quite the opposite to be true. Doesn't get all fussed about minor stuff.
I flatly refuse to believe I could've said all the stuff I said but simply put a "I think" in front of it, and he would've engaged with me pleasantly.

I really don't care if he agrees with me or not, we all have our own opinions, but I've gotten nothing but bad-faith from him across multiple threads at this point.

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-11, 08:33 PM

I flatly refuse to believe Here's what I believe. If we three were sitting in a pub, each with a pint, talking it over, we'd all likely get along pretty well due to our passion for this hobby. :smallwink: The text-only medium has some shortcomings.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 08:43 PM

Here's what I believe. If we three were sitting in a pub, each with a pint, talking it over, we'd all likely get along pretty well due to our passion for this hobby. :smallwink: The text-only medium has some shortcomings.

lol OK that I agree with

Witty Username

2022-03-11, 08:58 PM

RogueJK

2022-03-11, 09:02 PM

While I think monk is the weaker class, I feel Barbarian is the harder team.
Monks first and foremost concern is short rest confusion, a full team doesn't have nearly as much concern.
Also, monks tend to have a more diverse range of skills.
A Barbarian team will likely excel at combat, especially since they can coordinate there rages, but control, problem solving and RP will have greater difficulty.

Agreed. At least with some of the Monks, you have options for non-martial/spell-like capabilities including magical abilities for AoEs, healing, and even some forms of control. Barbarians, regardless of subclass, pretty much lack those kind of capabilities that are typically brought by a caster.

Even the other non-caster martials - Rogues and Fighters - have some subclasses that can bring a portion of those capabilities to the table.

In D&D, a party with zero spellcasting or even spell-like-abilities (like 4x Barbarians) is going to have a pretty rough go of things unless the DM is quite generous with their encounter building.

Naanomi

2022-03-11, 09:28 PM

Monks and Rogues can do a lot to avoid disadvantageous encounters, barbarians and fighters less so

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 09:37 PM

I'm doing this quickly so the math might be wrong somewhere, but it at least passes the smell test, I think :smallwink:

Yep!

Alrighty, let's go super basic and obvious:

Level 5 Bear Totem Barb, Variant Human

Alright, level 5, so we're dealing with the Barbarian's relative damage peak. It's basically all downhill for the Barbarian from here.

I'll note that this Barbarian's AC is not only worse than the Monk's, but they're giving enemies Advantage to hit and crit them, too. And their mental saves are all terrible. Not even a Fey Ancestry or Res(Wis) or Lucky or something to help them out, they just straight dumped their mental stats and prayed that they didn't pass a CR5 Cambion eager to make them fight for their side, or anything else with nasty mental attacks. Not even Darkvision. Just gotta get that damage from VHuman.

I mention this only because you had previously talked about Monks having "too low AC for a melee character" and so forth and, well, this is a habitually Recklessly Attacking character with 15-17 AC and zero mental defenses. Rage will help to some extent, but only in half the encounters of the day, and only once their turn comes up and they use a bonus action (being Surprised or losing initiative means unmitigated damage).

But let's move on to damage, shall we?

_____________________________________________

You said your Barb's DPR vs AC 16 was about 24.74 while Raging and Recklessly Attacking with GWM. Well, we can beat that without even getting Advantage.

If we have a "standard" 2 short rest day, the Monk gets 5 ki for every Rage the Barbarian uses. And unlike the Barbarian, we'll take a race that actually helps us defensively, like, I don't know, Shadar-Kai (they're not even all that synergistic with it, since it competes for their bonus actions! But who cares, being an elf is nice anyways). That Cambion that mind controlled the Barbarian is going to bounce off our Fey Ancestry and +3 Wisdom.

For 2 ki, without even Advantage or anything, just 18 Dex and 16 Wis, a Way of Mercy Monk can do 27.9 DPR vs AC 16 (via Flurry of Blows and Hands of Harm). Or ~31.4 DPR if they are willing to use a ki whenever they miss by 2 or less (which they should, that's a good use of a ki). We can keep that up for 2 rounds, which is enough to finish out the combat (no, not 4 rounds. If I was to do this kind of damage-per-character for 4 rounds, I'd need a foe with 480 HP. At level 5).

If that sounds like the Monk's already potentially outdamaging the Barbarian without using some of its tools, that's because it is. We can do more.

We're competent at stealth, and so can try to start a fight Hidden and take our first attack at Triple Advantage (because we're an elf and so of course took Elven Accuracy at 4). Or maybe even try to grab Surprise. We also can benefit from any Advantage from the party (where the Barb is already maxxed out, and can't get any more Advantage from teamwork). Or we could get Advantage from something being Stunned (such as if we've got an entire team of 4 Monks doing it). Our damage can get pushed up to ~42 DPR if we're getting Triple Advantage from Elven Accuracy. Or we could take a damage-boosting race like the Barbarian did (like Bugbear, which can apply +2d6 damage to all 4 of our attacks on round 1, absolutely demolishing any damage the Barbarian could hope to do). Or we could talk the Monk's big gun:

S t u n n i n g S t r i k e.

Stunning Strike is a damage tool. It's just not "selfish" damage. But it's still damage.

Having 5 ki to blow means you could potentially open with a Flurry and 4 stun attempts. If even one of them lands, that's... basically a death sentence for a party with good output, because you can easily be generating an extra 5-10 (or more) DPR per character in the party from landing a stun. Plus giving Advantage on not only your remaining attacks for this round, but also the following round (because it doesn't end until the end of your next turn). In addition to Advantage, it also makes people auto-fail against shoves, grapples, Dex saves, and Str saves... which allows you to do some pretty mean things. With a synergistic party, landing a stun can basically mean the enemy is simply done playing the game.

Oh, and if you were curious about how much damage that Bugbear Mercy Monk would have done, it would have been over 50 DPR on round one for 2-3 ki (they only spend 3 if they miss an attack by 1-2). Oh, and that number can go up to ~65 DPR if they get Advantage. Though that's only if they win initiative (which they have a solid chance to do).

And that Bugbear would give us reach, Fey Ancestry, the ability to move in Small areas without squeezing, a skill, and Darkvision. On top of that damage boost.

There you go. That's some Monk-y business.

Edit
Oh, and unlike for that Barbarian, level 5 isn't your peak. For example, Mercy Monk gets a significant boost just next level, at 6 (because they now inflict no-save Disadvantage with their Hands of Harm). So now they're running around with 17 AC and Disadvantage to be hit, while that Barbarian is having 15-17 AC and Advantage to be hit because of their Recklessness.

Also, as you can see in this chart, the ratio of ki to rages gets better over time:
L2: 3 ki per time a Barb rages
L3: 3
L4: 4
L5: 5
L6: 4.5
L7: 5.25
L8: 6
L9: 6.75
L10: 7.5
L11: 8.25
L12: 7.2
L13: 7.8
L14: 8.4
L15: 9
L16: 9.6
L17: 8.5
L18: 9
L19: 9.5
L20: N/A (Barbs get infinite rages, Monks get some ki recharged each combat)

This could very easily be the type of games I play in, but I have never seen a barb run out of rages. One rage lasts for an encounter, barring weird or unfortunate circumstances. Which means at by 3rd level they can rage for 3 entire encounters/long rest. At 6 they can rage for 4 encounters. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a time where one of the barbs didn't have a rage when they needed it. Maybe our group is long-rest heavy and that's shading my opinion.

Monks on the other hand, at around that level, can easily blow through their Ki points in a single encounter *if they actually want to do the stuff that brings them to parity with other classes.* Yes it comes back on a short rest, but I've seen far more instances of going 2-3 battles without a short rest than 4-5 battles without a long one.

Certainly, you can disadvantage a short rest class and advantage a long rest class by reducing the number of short rests per adventuring day. The DMG suggests 2 shorts per adventuring day. If you're not getting that, then Monks will have less ki-per-rage and the comparison will get worse for them.

But if we're getting 2 shorts per adventuring day, I hope you can see that they can lay down some hurt, as seen above.

And unlike the Barbarian, they have more potential for "unselfish" DPR, helping to boost and synergize with others in the party. Stunning is a powerful effect. So is something like the ninja squad giving each other Darkness they can see through and dropping Silence and generating Surprise Rounds with Pass Without Trace and so forth. A Monk's DPR is never really just their own DPR, but also how much they boost their party's output.

But even when it is just their own DPR... well, grab a Bugbear Mercy Monk and win initiative and have fun with that. :smalltongue:

Skrum

2022-03-11, 10:14 PM

Yep!

Alright, level 5, so we're dealing with the Barbarian's relative damage peak. It's basically all downhill for the Barbarian from here.

I'll note that this Barbarian's AC is not only worse than the Monk's, but they're giving enemies Advantage to hit and crit them, too. And their mental saves are all terrible. Not even a Fey Ancestry or Res(Wis) or Lucky or something to help them out, they just straight dumped their mental stats and prayed that they didn't pass a CR5 Cambion eager to make them fight for their side, or anything else with nasty mental attacks. Not even Darkvision. Just gotta get that damage from VHuman.

I mention this only because you had previously talked about Monks having "too low AC for a melee character" and so forth and, well, this is a habitually Recklessly Attacking character with 15-17 AC and zero mental defenses. Rage will help to some extent, but only in half the encounters of the day, and only once their turn comes up and they use a bonus action (being Surprised or losing initiative means unmitigated damage).

But let's move on to damage, shall we?

_____________________________________________

You said your Barb's DPR vs AC 16 was about 24.74 while Raging and Recklessly Attacking with GWM. Well, we can beat that without even getting Advantage.

If we have a "standard" 2 short rest day, the Monk gets 5 ki for every Rage the Barbarian uses. And unlike the Barbarian, we'll take a race that actually helps us defensively, like, I don't know, Shadar-Kai (they're not even all that synergistic with it, since it competes for their bonus actions! But who cares, being an elf is nice anyways). That Cambion that mind controlled the Barbarian is going to bounce off our Fey Ancestry and +3 Wisdom.

For 2 ki, without even Advantage or anything, just 18 Dex and 16 Wis, a Way of Mercy Monk can do 27.9 DPR vs AC 16 (via Flurry of Blows and Hands of Harm). Or ~31.4 DPR if they are willing to use a ki whenever they miss by 2 or less (which they should, that's a good use of a ki). We can keep that up for 2 rounds, which is enough to finish out the combat (no, not 4 rounds. If I was to do this kind of damage-per-character for 4 rounds, I'd need a foe with 480 HP. At level 5).

If that sounds like the Monk's already outdamaging the Barbarian without using some of its tools, that's because it is. We can do more.

We're competent at stealth, and so can try to start a fight Hidden and take our first attack at Triple Advantage (because we're an elf and so of course took Elven Accuracy at 4). Or maybe even try to grab Surprise. We also can benefit from any Advantage from the party (where the Barb is already maxxed out, and can't get any more Advantage from teamwork). Or we could get Advantage from something being Stunned (such as if we've got an entire team of 4 Monks doing it). Our damage can get pushed up to ~42 DPR if we're getting Triple Advantage from Elven Accuracy. Or we could take a damage-boosting race like the Barbarian did (like Bugbear, which can apply +2d6 damage to all 4 of our attacks on round 1, absolutely demolishing any damage the Barbarian could hope to do). Or we could talk the Monk's big gun:

S t u n n i n g S t r i k e.

Stunning Strike is a damage tool. It's just not "selfish" damage. But it's still damage.

Having 5 ki to blow means you could potentially open with a Flurry and 4 stun attempts. If even one of them lands, that's... basically a death sentence for a party with good output, because you can easily be generating an extra 5-10 (or more) DPR per character in the party from landing a stun. Plus giving Advantage on not only your remaining attacks for this round, but also the following round (because it doesn't end until the end of your next turn). In addition to Advantage, it also makes people auto-fail against shoves, grapples, Dex saves, and Str saves... which allows you to do some pretty mean things. With a synergistic party, landing a stun can basically mean the enemy is simply done playing the game.

Oh, and if you were curious about how much damage that Bugbear Mercy Monk would have done, it would have been over 50 DPR on round one for 2-3 ki (they only spend 3 if they miss an attack by 1-2). Oh, and that number can go up to ~65 DPR if they get Advantage. Though that's only if they win initiative (which they have a solid chance to do).

And that Bugbear would give us reach, Fey Ancestry, the ability to move in Small areas without squeezing, a skill, and Darkvision. On top of that damage boost.

There you go. That's some Monk-y business.

Edit
Oh, and unlike for that Barbarian, level 5 isn't your peak. For example, Mercy Monk gets a significant boost just next level, at 6 (because they now inflict no-save Disadvantage with their Hands of Harm). So now they're running around with 17 AC and Disadvantage to be hit, while that Barbarian is having 15-17 AC and Advantage to be hit because of their Recklessness.

Also, as you can see in this chart, the ratio of ki to rages gets better over time:
L2: 3 ki per time a Barb rages
L3: 3
L4: 4
L5: 5
L6: 4.5
L7: 5.25
L8: 6
L9: 6.75
L10: 7.5
L11: 8.25
L12: 7.2
L13: 7.8
L14: 8.4
L15: 9
L16: 9.6
L17: 8.5
L18: 9
L19: 9.5
L20: N/A (Barbs get infinite rages, Monks get some ki recharged each combat)

Certainly, you can disadvantage a short rest class and advantage a long rest one by reducing the number of short rests per adventuring day. The DMG suggests 2 shorts per adventuring day. If you're not getting that, then Monks will have less ki-per-rage and the comparison will get worse for them.

But if we're getting 2 shorts per adventuring day, I hope you can see that they can lay down some hurt, as seen above.

And unlike the Barbarian, they have more potential for "unselfish" DPR, helping to boost and synergize with others in the party. Stunning is a powerful effect. So is something like the ninja squad giving each other Darkness they can see through and dropping Silence and generating Surprise Rounds with Pass Without Trace and so forth. A Monk's DPR is never really just their own DPR, but also how much they boost their party's output.

But even when it is just their own DPR... well, grab a Bugbear Mercy Monk and win initiative and have fun with that. :smalltongue:

Sorry can you show your work please? Not that I don't believe you, but I've never come close to building a monk that does anything even in the same STATE as to what you're showing. 34 DPR?? Like, how.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 10:26 PM

Sorry can you show your work please? Not that I don't believe you, but I've never come close to building a monk that does anything even in the same STATE as to what you're showing. 34 DPR?? Like, how.

I just punched it into the DPR calculator in my sig. Also it was 31.4, if you're referring to the no-advantage elf.

Anyways, let's see if I can lay out the main bits by hand real quick.

You have +7 to hit. For simplicity's sake let's treat a willingness to use a ki on attacks that miss by 1-2 (with Focused Aim) as +2 to hit. You get 1d10+4 on your Dedicated Weapon attacks (you can get proficiency with an appropriate weapon for being an elf), and you get 1d6+4 on your unarmed attacks.

And then, you get another 1d6+3 on the attack you apply Hands of Harm to. This 1d6+3 is worth more than it looks like, because it has the same properties that make Divine Smite better than it appears. Essentially, Hands of Harm is more valuable than an extra attack.

So anyways, with our effective +9 to hit we have a 70% chance to hit (actually 65% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit) AC 16 with 4 attacks for 2d10+2d6+16 (34). And then if at least one of those 4 attacks hits, we can use Hands of Harm for another 1d6+3 (6.5). The chance of at least one attack hitting is over 99%.

So we take ~6.5 + .7*34, plus a bit extra for the crit chance, and bang. You get the answer the calculator pops out. And of course our damage can go up from there if we get Advantage or the like.

The only uncertainty is exactly how much ki I'd expect Focused Aim to be eating at that rate. I'd have to do more math to get an exact figure for that (e.g. how many attacks, on average, miss by 1-2). But being willing to use it to turn misses by 2 or less into hits should be ki-efficient (since that's a better use of ki than Flurry of Blows or even a non-crit Hands of Harm). Edit: Choosing to use Focused Aim in this way will cost an average of 0.4 ki over 4 non-advantage attacks.

So yeah. Mercy Monks are good. :smallsmile:

Should you find any error with my work, no matter how small, please do let me know. https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

Edit: (For people joining the conversation late, I am showing the work regarding this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25392904&postcount=89)! Go take a look! :smallsmile:)

Skrum

2022-03-11, 10:39 PM

Monks at level 5 have 5 Ki points though....? How are they supposed to use Ki at that rate and make it through 2 battles? Hands of harm costs a point (doesn't it?), flurry costs a point, boosting your attack by 2 costs a point (which I agree, is generally a very good use of a point - though I'll also say that knowing exactly what an enemy's AC is is generally rare).

And that's before factoring in step of the wind, dodge, etc. (the things that are supposed to keep the monk alive).

Idk I'm just skeptical lol. Like I'm sure your math is right, on paper, but this is just so far away from anything I've ever seen a monk do or that someone has suggested a monk *could* do.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 10:47 PM

Monks at level 5 have 5 Ki points though....? How are they supposed to use Ki at that rate and make it through 2 battles?

Monks at level 5 have 5 ki points per short rest. If they have a "standard" adventuring day's 2 short rests, they have 15 ki.

Barbarians have 3 rages. Ergo, in a standard 2 short rest day, a Monk has 5 ki per Barbarian Rage.

The point I'm making here is that Barbarian resources are pretty limited too. It just doesn't seem like it from your personal experience since you've said you have few encounters and few short rests per day.

Idk I'm just skeptical lol. Like I'm sure your math is right, on paper, but this is just so far away from anything I've ever seen a monk do or that someone has suggested a monk *could* do.

Well, have you ever seen anyone do math for what a modern Mercy Monk could do?

As for people even suggesting it, I'm pretty sure a few people in this very thread have been suggesting that, just not in as detailed a manner as I just did.

And that's before factoring in step of the wind, dodge, etc. (the things that are supposed to keep the monk alive).

At level 6, they'll start imposing no-save Disadvantage to hit with their Hands of Harm. And that will help keep not only them, but everyone in the party, alive. Because Mercy Monks are good like that.

Before that, Stunning Strike is a really good way to reduce the lethality of key enemies to you and the rest of the party. I find that when you're helping protect the party and not just yourself, your party can spare some more resources to help keep you okay.

I have only rarely used Step of the Wind and Dodge, myself. More often I fire the party's Monk like a torpedo at whatever looks like it can cast Counterspell.

Kane0

2022-03-11, 10:57 PM

I have only rarely used Step of the Wind and Dodge, myself. More often I fire the party's Monk like a torpedo at whatever looks like it can cast Counterspell.

That is my experience too.

JNAProductions

2022-03-11, 10:57 PM

Witty Username

2022-03-11, 11:04 PM

2 short rests and 6 encounters are recommended, so a short rest is a 2 encounter problem. I agree that rage won't last that either since a Barbarian has more like 4, to the 6 encounters but it does mean 5 ki a turn is going to be difficult to sustain.
It is a bit of a paradox with monks I have found, 1 encounter days monks are overshadowed by long rest features, multi encounter days and ki management becomes increasingly an issue. I think, based on my experience, 3 encounters a day is the sweet spot, or more accurately 1 encounter per short rest. This is where the monk has its perceived traits of high damage and legendary resistance burning.

How this compares to Barbarian, I find the topic a bit meh because I don't find the Barbarian to be much to write home about. But I would note Barbarian can use reckless attack and brutal critical for free, for what it's worth. Monk is basically a two-weapon fighter at that point.

Edit: caviot, way of mercy monk gets around this by having effective ways to spend less ki for more potent effects. Most disfavorable notes on monk simply aren't as applicable.

LudicSavant

2022-03-11, 11:14 PM

Low floor, high ceiling. As opposed to a Barbarian's high floor, low ceiling.

Yep!

2 short rests and 6 encounters are recommended, so a short rest is a 2 encounter problem. I agree that rage won't last that either since a Barbarian has more like 4, to the 6 encounters but it does mean 5 ki a turn is going to be difficult to sustain.

Note it wasn't 5 ki a turn. It was 5 ki for the whole combat. And the Barbarian has 3 rages at that level, not 4.

If you're curious about how the ratio looks at other levels:
L2: 3 ki per time a Barb rages
L3: 3 ki per time a Barb rages
L4: 4 ki per time a Barb rages
L5: 5 ki per time a Barb rages
L6: 4.5 ki per time a Barb rages
L7: 5.25 ki per time a Barb rages
L8: 6 ki per time a Barb rages
L9: 6.75 ki per time a Barb rages
L10: 7.5 ki per time a Barb rages
L11: 8.25 ki per time a Barb rages
L12: 7.2 ki per time a Barb rages
L13: 7.8 ki per time a Barb rages
L14: 8.4 ki per time a Barb rages
L15: 9 ki per time a Barb rages
L16: 9.6 ki per time a Barb rages
L17: 8.5 ki per time a Barb rages
L18: 9 ki per time a Barb rages
L19: 9.5 ki per time a Barb rages
L20: N/A (Barbs get infinite rages, Monks get some ki recharged each combat)
So as you can see, the ratio only gets better for the Monk over time, even as the Barb gets more and more rages.

Witty Username

2022-03-11, 11:26 PM

My apologies, I drifted off the direct conversation. 5 ki a turn is more based on personal monk experiences, and 4 rages is as far as I have figured what a Barbarian will have on average, since 3-4 is what they will have for most of there career.

For 5th level specifically, I would say is the worst level for ki choke issues, since stunning strike just came online but it is very ki intense to use, 1-2 rounds of combat is about fair. The barbarian, at 5th level, doesn't really have this high expenditure, since extra attack has benefits for rage but doesn't do stuff like cost more rages to get that benefit. And reckless attack, gwm still gives something to do in between.

Skrum

2022-03-11, 11:27 PM

The game I'm in is built around 3-4 hour "one-shot" adventures that begin with the players starting in a safe place and returning at the end of the night. As such, we begin each night fully rested a ready to go. Most games have 2 combats, sometimes 3, and sometimes we get a short rest but usually not. We almost never get a long rest within an game. A typical combat is 3-5 rounds long.

Idk if this favors the monk or not, but I simply cannot comprehend that kind of effectiveness out of a monk in this format.

LudicSavant

2022-03-12, 12:31 AM

So with that established, I'd like to proffer the opinion that Monks might actually make for one of the more solid 4-man martial teams.

They can build ranged characters (like Kensei) and even if they don't, they have a pretty good engagement range (they stealthy and fast and run on walls and water and such).

They have one of the best martial healers in the form of Mercy Monk. And on top of that, all of them can heal themselves out of combat faster using their new Quickened Healing alternate class feature. Particularly useful when used as a "1 hour ritual."

They're a full-stealth team, and thus have a good chance to generate Surprise rounds (which are a big deal, seriously, that's a whole extra round of actions plus the tactical benefits of getting the drop on your enemy).

They just laugh at ranged weapon attacks because Deflect Missiles is so good (it only costs ki if you want the extra attack, otherwise it's just an at-will reaction that gives a fat chunk of mitigation. For example at level 5 it's worth 13.5 hp a pop... that's like 36% of your health bar! And it scales well. At level 20 it can eat a 30.5 hit on average).

They also just laugh at Dexterity saves in general. Those things don't deal damage to this team. Neither does Poison, one of the most common damage types and most common conditions in the game. They don't care about falling, either. And can switch off some charm and fear effects.

Against mook swarms, inflicting Disadvantage to hit is very effective (especially if combined with good positioning -- remember that even creatures provide Cover against ranged attacks!)

Against big single foes, stunning strike can be devastating. So can things like PWT, Silence, and Darkness (all of which also come up with punches attacked thanks to the KFA buff). Or inflicting Disadvantage via Hands of Harm.

By high levels, they are just all good at all saves.

By really high levels they all can turn invisible and have resistance to all damage (except force).

And of course there's the stuff I mentioned earlier: Way of Shadow synergizes with Way of Shadow. Being surrounded by punchy guys in unknown squares while you're deaf and blind, with no save, is a bad time.

Schwann145

2022-03-12, 12:33 AM

You have +7 to hit. For simplicity's sake let's treat a willingness to use a ki on attacks that miss by 1-2 (with Focused Aim) as +2 to hit.

So anyways, with our effective +9 to hit we have a 70% chance to hit (actually 65% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit) AC 16 with 4 attacks for 2d10+2d6+16 (34). And then if at least one of those 4 attacks hits, we can use Hands of Harm for another 1d6+3 (6.5). The chance of at least one attack hitting is over 99%.

So we take ~6.5 + .7*34, plus a bit extra for the crit chance, and bang. You get the answer the calculator pops out. And of course our damage can go up from there if we get Advantage or the like.

Should you find any error with my work, no matter how small, please do let me know. https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

Underlined the relevant parts. Your DPR is assuming that you spent Ki for +2 on all four attacks. You blew threw all 5 Ki (including Hands of Harm) in a single round's attacks. You have nothing left for subsequent attacks/damage/defenses/mobility.

Edit to add: Also, I don't feel like doing the math (yea, I'm lazy :P) but I doubt that (with corrected attack values) the chance of getting a guaranteed hit out of these four attacks is above 99%. I think assuming Hands of Harm dps is a bit bad faith.
And also, just because I'm a bit pedantic, you should calculate the DPR for a crit separately and then add it back after calculating the DPR for a non-crit. It doubles the work you gotta do but it's more accurate (and bumps your overall DPR!)

LudicSavant

2022-03-12, 12:34 AM

Underlined the relevant parts. Your DPR is assuming that you spent Ki for +2 on all four attacks. You blew threw all 5 Ki (including Hands of Harm) in a single round's attacks. You have nothing left for subsequent attacks/damage/defenses/mobility.

That's incorrect. You're assuming you spend the ki every attack. You only spend the ki in the event you miss by 1-2. Therefore, the chance that you blow through 5 ki that way is extremely low. Like, 1 in 10,000 low. So low that it might as well be zero.

Edit: Wow, that edit is extraordinarily rude.

Edit to add: Also, I don't feel like doing the math (yea, I'm lazy :P) but I doubt that (with corrected attack values) the chance of getting a guaranteed hit out of these four attacks is above 99% Well, I'm not lazy, and I actually did do the math. :smallannoyed:

I think assuming Hands of Harm dps is a bit bad faith. Says the person who (wrongly) assumed a mistake when they said they were too lazy to do the math. :smallmad:

Schwann145

2022-03-12, 12:42 AM

That's incorrect. You're assuming you spend the ki every attack. You only spend the ki in the event you miss by 1-2. Therefore, the chance that you blow through 5 ki that way is extremely low. Like, 1 in 10,000 low. So low that it might as well be zero.

I'm not assuming; your proposed calculation is.
The 70% chance to hit is based on a +9 bonus, which is achieved by having a +7 and spending a Ki for an additional +2.
Chance to hit AC 16 with a +7 Atk Bonus is 60%.

I agree that you only need to spend Ki when you would miss by 1 or 2. The example you show is giving that +2 to every attack. (Also, gotta agree that it's hard to know by how much your attack misses - not every GM is going to be forthcoming with that info, and it could take *many* rounds to figure it out oneself.)

Kane0

2022-03-12, 12:46 AM

I generally assume prof bonus ki spent per fight if you have to go through 2 or more fights between rests

Witty Username

2022-03-12, 01:10 AM

I do agree that monks make one of the more interesting 4-man teams, certainly. Power aside, Dex and Wis have a pretty broad list of skills, the subclasses have a pretty nice range of features, shadow, mercy and four elements stand out to me on that front. Oh and long death, not my personal cup of tea but it has definitely got interesting bits.

I would argue this is also a perk of Ranger parties. Since that adds on coverage of spell selection at least a bit.

Barbarian has none of that really. The party will be good at combat, and specifically brawl combat, but not much else really. And you will have some trouble specializing as individuals.

Schwann145

2022-03-12, 01:18 AM

Well, I'm not lazy, and I actually did do the math. :smallannoyed:

Says the person who (wrongly) assumed a mistake when they said they were too lazy to do the math. :smallmad:

Lol. Fine, I'll do the math.
Without spending any Ki on any of 4 attacks where the chance to hit is 60%, the probability that one attack is successful is: 1-[.4^4]=0.9744 or 97.44%.
Spending Ki on all of 4 attacks changing the chance to hit to 70%, the probability that one attack is successful is: 1-[.3^4]=0.9919 or 99.19%.

So the chance of hitting here is between 97.44% (no Ki) and 99.19% (4 Ki).
Very very very good, but not guaranteed.

LudicSavant

2022-03-12, 01:20 AM

I'm not assuming Oh, you most certainly are. Starting with this one:

your proposed calculation is. Nope. All of those values are calculated, not assumed.

If you say "I will use Focused Aim if any of my attacks missed by 1 or 2," and then make 4 attacks without Advantage, then that will on average consume 0.4 ki, and will be so close in value to a +2 to hit in the DPR calculation that the difference vanishes when rounding.

edit:

Edit to add: Also, I don't feel like doing the math (yea, I'm lazy :P) but I doubt that (with corrected attack values) the chance of getting a guaranteed hit out of these four attacks is above 99%

Lol. Fine, I'll do the math.

the probability that one attack is successful is: 1-[.3^4]=0.9919 or 99.19%.

99.19% is over 99%, precisely as I said.

The chance of at least one attack hitting is over 99%.

So the chance of hitting here is between 97.44% (no Ki) and 99.19% (4 Ki).

Your mistake is thinking that the 99.19% requires 4 ki. On average, it consumes 0.4 ki.

Your calculation would only be correct if you had to spend the ki before the roll. Spending it after the roll is mathematically very different (and far more effective).

Witty Username

2022-03-12, 02:16 AM

LudicSavant

2022-03-12, 02:32 AM

Real quick my quick math is that it takes about 3 stun attempts reasonably to stun an opponent. Would that match your expectations?

notes: My napkin math was done with 50% and 60% stun success chance.

If you make 3 attempts, and have a 50% chance of success per attempt, then you have a 50% chance that it succeeds on the first attempt, a 25% chance it succeeds on the second attempt, a 12.5% chance it succeeds on the third attempt, and a 12.5% chance all three attempts fail. (Total: 100% of the possible outcomes)

Note that this is the success rate for the stuns themselves, not the chance of landing an attack and then Stunning (but of course, if you don't land an attack, you don't use any ki and can make a stun attempt later).

Hael

2022-03-12, 02:33 AM

Given that this starts at lvl 3 and with sufficient optimization any class works, the real question is what is the three hardest classes to do this with.

IMO..

Barbarian is the hardest. Theres a lack of skill monkeying, social and healing. Saves will really hurt them.
Sorceror is the next hardest. Simply b/c of how easy a random crit can take one out, and they dont have the same tanking options a wizard party can have (eg an abjurer).
Monk is probably third hardest. At this level they have good dpr, but the tanking/saves is a problem and they will need to sacrifice an entire party members damage in order to make a skill monkey/face.

Bards are also going to be somewhat challenging (but not too bad), simply b/c they are going to lack some damage in tier1.

Evaar

2022-03-12, 02:39 AM

(Also, gotta agree that it's hard to know by how much your attack misses - not every GM is going to be forthcoming with that info, and it could take *many* rounds to figure it out oneself.)

I want to respond to this because I think it seems reasonable at first glance but makes a lot of assumptions. It’s not that hard to tell when you missed by a little bit. For one thing, most enemies don’t have very high AC. You know when you rolled decently. If you miss when you rolled a 3, you’re not going to bother spending Ki even if you don’t know the enemy’s AC. If you rolled an 11 and still missed, chances are pretty good a +2 is going to make the difference.

Further, this probably isn’t the first attack against that creature. Whether from your own prior attacks or your allies’, you should have a decent sample of attempts to hit the target that’ll demonstrate a range for the target’s AC.

Even if the DM is being very stingy about information, there are a lot of tools to inform your guessing as to whether spending Ki on Focused Aim is worthwhile.

Getting back to the original question about the party of 4; I think there’s a little unacknowledged synergy with any group of Monks. If Stunning is the goal, the ability of every character to efficiently attempt those stuns, benefit the entire group whenever one of them succeeds, and all the rest of the group being able to shift tactics immediately when someone does succeed… I guess what I’m saying is Monks aren’t stepping on each other’s toes when they’re working together. That isn’t necessarily the case with all the other classes as battlefields get clogged, Conditions become redundant, or players spend resources inefficiently due to lack of information (like a group of 4 paladins might end up Smiting targets who would’ve died without the smite because they didn’t have the enemy’s HP available - that’s a number with a much larger range of variance than AC, so it’s much harder to predict without DM aid).

Schwann145

2022-03-12, 02:47 AM

Oh, you most certainly are. Starting with this one:

Nope. All of those values are calculated, not assumed.

I've been talking exclusively about your post (that I've linked to) from this page. Going back to your post from the last page (with the actual DPR posted) your math does indeed check out.
I hope you can see how it's easy from what you posted on this page to assume you were incorrectly using an across-the-board 70% hit chance.
Regardless... mea culpa.

I want to respond to this because I think it seems reasonable at first glance but makes a lot of assumptions. It’s not that hard to tell when you missed by a little bit. For one thing, most enemies don’t have very high AC. You know when you rolled decently. If you miss when you rolled a 3, you’re not going to bother spending Ki even if you don’t know the enemy’s AC. If you rolled an 11 and still missed, chances are pretty good a +2 is going to make the difference.

Further, this probably isn’t the first attack against that creature. Whether from your own prior attacks or your allies’, you should have a decent sample of attempts to hit the target that’ll demonstrate a range for the target’s AC.

Even if the DM is being very stingy about information, there are a lot of tools to inform your guessing as to whether spending Ki on Focused Aim is worthwhile.

You could find out on round 1 or not until round 10. It depends entirely on how lucky you are to see a good spread of dice rolls.
If the enemy AC is actually a 14, but you don't know that yet, are you willing to spend the Ki on that roll of 11? That's a HUUUGE gamble considering your class basically turns off when you run out of Ki, and you only have a few points of it to spend, and you have to spend it to do (basically) anything of quality.

Evaar

2022-03-12, 02:54 AM

I've been talking exclusively about your post (that I've linked to) from this page. Going back to your post from the last page (with the actual DPR posted) your math does indeed check out.
I hope you can see how it's easy from what you posted on this page to assume you were incorrectly using an across-the-board 70% hit chance.
Regardless... mea culpa.

You could find out on round 1 or not until round 10. It depends entirely on how lucky you are to see a good spread of dice rolls.
If the enemy AC is actually a 14, but you don't know that yet, are you willing to spend the Ki on that roll of 11? That's a HUUUGE gamble considering your class basically turns off when you run out of Ki, and you only have a few points of it to spend, and you have to spend it to do (basically) anything of quality.

There’s no way I don’t hit a 14 on a roll of an 11, so I wouldn’t have the opportunity to spend Ki here. It seems from what you’re saying that you’re under the misunderstanding that you have to declare this Ki expenditure in advance. You do not. You spend it when you miss, turning that miss into a hit (if the bonus would meet the AC). That’s why it’s so efficient. If I roll an 11 and I have 18 dexterity and I’m level 5 and I still miss, that would mean I missed with a result of 19. I’m level 5; how likely is it this thing has AC exceeding 21? Not likely. I spend the Ki.

That is, I do if the context supports it. Let’s say the enemy is a Horizonback Tortoise that has withdrawn into its shell. If I rolled a 19 and missed, then I would say I have no idea what the upper limit of this thing’s AC is while it’s in its shell. I wouldn’t spend the Ki there, and I’d probably stop trying to attack it and figure something else out. (The Horizonback Tortoise is CR with AC17, but it increases to 22 while withdrawn in its shell. If I rolled a 12 and spent Ki I could hit it, but I probably still wouldn’t spend it in that scenario because, again, context clues. Just in that case I would actually be wrong.)

LudicSavant

2022-03-12, 02:54 AM

Regardless... mea culpa.

NP. Glad that's resolved. https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png :smallsmile:

Schwann145

2022-03-12, 03:26 AM

There’s no way I don’t hit a 14 on a roll of an 11, so I wouldn’t have the opportunity to spend Ki here. It seems from what you’re saying that you’re under the misunderstanding that you have to declare this Ki expenditure in advance. You do not. You spend it when you miss, turning that miss into a hit (if the bonus would meet the AC). That’s why it’s so efficient. If I roll an 11 and I have 18 dexterity and I’m level 5 and I still miss, that would mean I missed with a result of 19. I’m level 5; how likely is it this thing has AC exceeding 21? Not likely. I spend the Ki.

That is, I do if the context supports it. Let’s say the enemy is a Horizonback Tortoise that has withdrawn into its shell. If I rolled a 19 and missed, then I would say I have no idea what the upper limit of this thing’s AC is while it’s in its shell. I wouldn’t spend the Ki there, and I’d probably stop trying to attack it and figure something else out. (The Horizonback Tortoise is CR with AC17, but it increases to 22 while withdrawn in its shell. If I rolled a 12 and spent Ki I could hit it, but I probably still wouldn’t spend it in that scenario because, again, context clues. Just in that case I would actually be wrong.)

I was working under the assumption that said 11 was the entire roll, not the dice alone. But still, most monster AC is lower than 19, so if you miss on a 19, it could easily have higher than 21, though probably not by much.
Regardless, it's still a huge gamble when you don't know and when the entire value of your effectiveness is based on the gambled resource.

***

Jumping back into Monk vs Barb, it's worth noting that for the cost of two rounds of competitive DPR, the Monk has to give up an entire short rest's worth of Defense, Mobility, and any additional competitive DPR.
It's tapped out in two rounds.

Meanwhile the Barbarian can withhold Rage until it needs the extra defenses; the +2 damage is pretty paltry. Otherwise it gets to utilize the benefits of:
•The same AC (you'll definitely have half plate by level 5), or better if you feel the need to use a Shield (barred from Monks relying on Unarmored Defense).
•Significantly more HP (possibly even twice as much - d12 vs d8 and 16 Con vs [prob] 12 Con... that's a *significant* difference).
•Better in-combat options (in D&D, all you can do in combat is attack or shove, and the Str-based Barb is in a *much* better position to successfully shove enemies into prone than the Dex-based Monk is. And once an enemy is prone, you don't need to Reckless Attack for Advantage anymore, negating the defense penalty entirely!).
•It's not barred from heavy weapons so GWM is always on the table (and expected, frankly. Dex fighters who aren't Archers or Rogues are at a really heavy damage disadvantage in 5e), etc and so on.
•PAM is also on the table, and the combination of GWM/PAM is pretty well known... and gross.

And while technically the recommend encounters should be giving the Monk more to work with here, if we're all being honest we know that the vast majority of DMs aren't planning enough individual encounters to make that recommendation true. Even the published material doesn't really allow you to take hour long breaks, multiple times, in enemy territory.
So the Barb being able to go full-hog for 3 full encounters is actually going to be more relevant and likely than the Monk getting to do anything meaningful for more than half of one or two encounters.

Final thoughts? Comparing Monk to Barb actually just makes Monk look worse than it already does - Barb is one of the worst-designed classes (IMO, but an O I think I share with quite a few), and Monk still manages to fall behind it, simply from how poorly designed it's resources are.
Monk is the class you play because you like it, not because it's mechanically competitive.

Rashagar

2022-03-12, 04:22 AM

Ok, just because nobody has tackled Rangers yet:
Fey Wanderer Face/Support/Summoning (WIS/CHA)
Gloomstalker Ranged/Scout/Skill Monkey (DEX/INT)
Horizon Walker Frontliner (STR)
Swarmkeeper Control/Healing (WIS/DEX)

I was surprised it took this long for anyone to mention rangers, because that was where my mind immediately went first. To me rangers are perfect for this for a number of reasons.

In saying that, I think my favourite class to try doing this with would be sorcerers, because it'd feel like a challenge but would also be easy for everyone to feel unique in their specialisations.

Kane0

2022-03-12, 04:32 AM

Rangers would be my pick after Warlocks also, and not just because they happen to be my favourite classes stop looking at me like that.

diplomancer

2022-03-12, 04:44 AM

Significantly more HP (possibly even twice as much - d12 vs d8 and 16 Con vs [prob] 12 Con... that's a *significant* difference).

I think this, more than any other part of your post, is revealing. Your Barbarian is starting with 16 Str, 16 Con, and 14 Dex (having thus abysmal wisdom saves, and might be more a liability to the party than a help), while you're assuming that the Monk is going to have 12 Con. Why would he?

Specially since Dex and Wis (his 2 main abilities) already are very common saves, and thus he can dump other abilities with less cost? No, a Monk is going to have 14 Con at least (he could easily be V. Human, go 15 15 15 8 8 8, grab Crusher, and start with 16 in all his main 3 abilities if he wants to, and at a far smaller defensive cost than a Barbarian that started with 15 15 14 10 8 8).

Schwann145

2022-03-12, 05:05 AM

I think this, more than any other part of your post, is revealing. Your Barbarian is starting with 16 Str, 16 Con, and 14 Dex (having thus abysmal wisdom saves, and might be more a liability to the party than a help), while you're assuming that the Monk is going to have 12 Con. Why would he?

Specially since Dex and Wis (his 2 main abilities) already are very common saves, and thus he can dump other abilities with less cost? No, a Monk is going to have 14 Con at least (he could easily be V. Human, go 15 15 15 8 8 8, grab Crusher, and start with 16 in all his main 3 abilities if he wants to, and at a far smaller defensive cost than a Barbarian that started with 15 15 14 10 8 8).

I would assume a Monk wouldn't want to tank Str (but I guess there are a ton of DMs who just let Dex be a true god-stat, so maybe so...). If they choose to, however, sure, Con could be 14.
Still significantly less HP, just not drastically so.

Edit: But, generally speaking, I think Monks can reliably be stronger against spell/caster effects and weaker against melee foes, while Barbs will be stronger against melee foes and weaker against spell/caster effects.

Hael

2022-03-12, 05:13 AM

Rangers would be my pick after Warlocks also, and not just because they happen to be my favourite classes stop looking at me like that.

Rangers will be fine, but they will take a bit of a hit b/c they will need one to boost cha, and there is a skill monkey problem, so like a few other martials, you kinda have to make one not so good.

They also have somewhat of a save problem as well.

Id say druids, warlocks and artificers have the overall easiest time.

diplomancer

2022-03-12, 05:45 AM

I would assume a Monk wouldn't want to tank Str (but I guess there are a ton of DMs who just let Dex be a true god-stat, so maybe so...). If they choose to, however, sure, Con could be 14.
Still significantly less HP, just not drastically so.

Edit: But, generally speaking, I think Monks can reliably be stronger against spell/caster effects and weaker against melee foes, while Barbs will be stronger against melee foes and weaker against spell/caster effects.

They start with Str saves, so even if they tank Str, they are only in real trouble if they have to deal with Str checks (and not grapples, as those can be escaped with Acrobatics). They are still better able to deal with Str challenges than Barbarians are able to deal with Wis challenges.

And though in my example he did tank Str, that was only to achieve Con 16; they can easily start with 16 16 14 12 8 8 (Dex, Wis, Con, Str, Int, Cha). To have only 12 Con, which was your assumption, he has to actively WANT to have low Con.

Rangers will be fine, but they will take a bit of a hit b/c they will need one to boost cha, and there is a skill monkey problem, so like a few other martials, you kinda have to make one not so good.

Tasha's Rangers get Expertise at level 1. 12 Cha on one of them (easily doable) and Persuasion Expertise should be sufficient.

Kane0

2022-03-12, 06:28 AM

Tasha's Rangers get Expertise at level 1. 12 Cha on one of them (easily doable) and Persuasion Expertise should be sufficient.

Rangers also start with 3 skills instead of the usual 2, plus the Fey Wanderer gets an extra Cha skill and +Wis to Cha checks on top of that, making for pretty solid talky guy.

In fact Wis as casting stat means you will have stat allocations for at least two decent saves even before picking up resilient, and some of the subclasses help on that front too (Fey again for Adv vs Fear and Charm plus access to Dispel Magic, Gloom Stalker Iron Mind, Monster Slayer Supernatural Defense)

RogueJK

2022-03-12, 06:38 AM

Rangers will be fine, but they will take a bit of a hit b/c they will need one to boost cha

Fey Wanderer Rangers get to add +WIS to CHA checks. So there's no need to invest in CHA. Between the Ranger's usual moderate to high WIS and Face skill proficiency/expertise, that one will be just fine.

In addition, Rangers have the ability to be WIS-focused thanks to Druidic Warrior's access to cantrips like Shillelagh. Normally you'd want DEX, CON, and WIS to be your three primary stats. But if you wanted good CHA checks on a non-Fey Ranger or really high CHA checks on a Fey Ranger, you could conceivably dump STR and INT, take just a 14ish DEX and CON, focus on WIS, and invest the rest in CHA. Something like this with a point buy Half Elf:
STR 9
DEX 14
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 15+2
CHA 13+1

Lvl 2 Expert

2022-03-12, 06:45 AM

Druid can pull it off well... Both Mechanically and conceptually. With the right backgrounds to cover your skill based, something like:

Spores(tank), Moon(scout), Stars(blaster), Shepard(battlefield control)

Probably Monk also, if you ever wanted to be able to run from almost any encounter:

Long Death(tank), Mercy(healer), Shadow(scout), Dragon Ascendant{or Sunsoul?} (Crowd Clearing)

If we can use other classes as long as they're multiclassed with the main one the moon druid could even go bearbarian. Three diverse casters and a melee specialist with way too much HP.

Personally I would probably be most tempted to try 4 rangers, because I just like rangers. The upside is that every ranger has access to all the components of a complete breakfast, the downside is that they're not always that great for specializing in one or the other. Tanky strength-constitution heavy armor ranger? Saving all his spell slots for cure wounds and goodberry healer ranger? I wanted to pick rogue ranger? Bsttlefield control hazard and summoning spells ranger? They're all options, but they're not brilliant options. But the total package could be kind of okay. Even if the spell list is a little limited to fully appreciate with four characters picking from it.

diplomancer

2022-03-12, 07:04 AM

Fey Wanderer Rangers get to add +WIS to CHA checks. So there's no need to invest in CHA. Between the Ranger's usual moderate to high WIS and Face skill proficiency/expertise, that one will be just fine.

In addition, Rangers have the ability to be WIS-focused thanks to Druidic Warrior's access to cantrips like Shillelagh. Normally you'd want DEX, CON, and WIS to be your three primary stats. But if you wanted good CHA checks on a non-Fey Ranger or really high CHA checks on a Fey Ranger, you could conceivably dump STR and INT, take just a 14ish DEX and CON, focus on WIS, and invest the rest in CHA. Something like this with a point buy Half Elf:
STR 9
DEX 14
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 15+2
CHA 13+1

This is something that gets easily forgotten when evaluating Rangers and Monks. Because of their Dex/Wis focus, their save defenses are very good, much better than other classes. Paladins more than make up for it once they get to level 6, but most other classes, even SAD ones, are behind them.

da newt

2022-03-12, 10:24 AM

Almost on topic - a Vendalken or race w/ ADV vs spells is another great way to boost saves. A Dex based Samuri gnome would have great saves. A bear totem barbarian Vendalken would have proff or ADV on every save. There are ways to build for good saves (and I think many folks don't put enough emphasis on it when building PCs).

RogueJK

2022-03-12, 10:38 AM

A Dex based Samuri gnome would have great saves.

Yep. STR and CON proficiency from Fighter. High DEX. WIS safe proficiency from Samurai. Advantage on INT/WIS/CHA saves from Gnome.

A very solid option. Tossing on the Resilient DEX or Shield Master feat would help even a bit more.

Samurai and Gloomstalker's additional WIS save proficiency at the relatively low Level 7 is commonly underappreciated. Most of the really nasty save-or-suck enemy effects/abilities/spells are WIS-based, and that starts becoming a real threat in Tier 2.

(Rogues get similar WIS save proficiency, just not until Tier 4. Monks get proficiency in all saves, but not until nearly Tier 4.)

There are ways to build for good saves

Step 1: Be a Paladin
Step 2: If not a Paladin, stand next to a Paladin
:biggrin:

Psyren

2022-03-12, 10:41 AM

Step 1: Be a Paladin
Step 2: If not a Paladin, stand next to a Paladin
:smallbiggrin:

Alternatively: Be a monk, survive to 14

NotPrior

2022-03-12, 11:12 AM

LudicSavant

2022-03-12, 11:28 AM

Just brought this up to a friend and she made a point I hadn't considered.

There are multiple creatures with some kind of ability which requires restoration or greater restoration to remove- petrifications, maimings, reductions of maximum hp- which for a normal, properly leveled party would be little issue, but for a party where everyone shares a class a lot of the options won't have access to either spell.

Yeah, it's an important seat belt spell.

All of the caster monoclass parties can handle it easily, since they all have great ways to get Lesser and Greater Restoration (among other important things). For example, a Jorasco Wizard or Clockwork Soul Sorcerer would have access to those spells. If you have full caster progression, you're good.

Mercy Monk can easily replicate Lesser Restoration (actually their version is better than Lesser Restoration), but they don't replicate Greater Restoration.

Paladin has Lesser Restoration on their list, but not Greater Restoration for some reason (they could add it to their list via Jorasco, I guess). Rangers do get Greater Restoration in the Tasha's variant, but boy do they get it late. But better late than never.

Thief Healers just don't have any way to produce Lesser or Greater Restoration natively. Their best hope is to find an item they can UMD (like Necklace of Prayer Beads, which can cover both Lesser and Greater Restoration).

A 1/day use of Lesser Restoration can be gained from the Jorasco race, but Greater Restoration needs you to have spell slots. Technically a 1/3rd caster could get Greater Restoration in this way, but super late.

Skrum

2022-03-12, 11:31 AM

Naanomi

2022-03-12, 12:39 PM

Skrum

2022-03-12, 01:09 PM

If easy access to restoration is to be considered a hard barrier; then Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Bard, and Warlock... Maybe artificer if the delay in acquisition is bearable... Are the only options on the ys le

Not a hard barrier (hiring npc's to cast certain spells is generally possible), but a notable one.

At the end of the day, any decent DM can tune their game to the players and characters that are at their table. An all rogue group would do great in an urban adventure that's focused on rival street gangs and turf wars. They'd do less well in a planar-hopping high magic game, or a tower defense zombie apocalypse themed game.

In a way, an all one class group could be extremely fun, as the DM would plausibly have an easier time tailoring encounters to the party's strengths, and not have to worry about one character trivializing content or overshadowing other party members. And if the content is well tuned, everyone will feel competent and gaps in abilities won't really be noticed.

Bobthewizard

2022-03-12, 01:25 PM

I might have missed it, but haven't seen anyone campaign for a party of clerics yet. It seems an obvious possible choice to me. Armor, full casting, and healing. Here's mine

Twilight for THP machine
Light for blasting
Ludic's Arcana for melee and at high level those sweet wizard spells
Trickery for scouting and social

RogueJK

2022-03-12, 01:45 PM

I might have missed it, but haven't seen anyone campaign for a party of clerics yet.

There are three Cleric team suggestions on the first page.

Bobthewizard

2022-03-12, 02:03 PM

There are three Cleric team suggestions on the first page.

Yes. Only from people who suggested multiple classes, though, so it didn't look like anyone was saying we should make the party from clerics, so I was hoping to have a discussion about that. Or is it a given that clerics would be good and we're debating some that might be more controversial or take more creativity?

Angelalex242

2022-03-12, 02:46 PM

How is it nobody mentioned the 4 Shadow Monk party...all with the Tortle race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNa2Fr6CA0E

RogueJK

2022-03-12, 02:50 PM

How is it nobody mentioned the 4 Shadow Monk party...

LudicSavant suggested an All Shadow Monk party towards the top of Page 2: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25392205&postcount=33

LudicSavant

2022-03-12, 02:51 PM

LudicSavant suggested an All Shadow Monk party towards the top of Page 2: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25392205&postcount=33

Yeah but my version was clearly inferior because it wasn't comprised of Tortles. :smalltongue:

Angelalex242

2022-03-12, 03:09 PM

If they're not Tortles, it's just not the same.

Rashagar

2022-03-13, 05:16 AM

Yes. Only from people who suggested multiple classes, though, so it didn't look like anyone was saying we should make the party from clerics, so I was hoping to have a discussion about that. Or is it a given that clerics would be good and we're debating some that might be more controversial or take more creativity?

Funnily enough all clerics would be a group I'd be less interested in being a part of, just because so much of what a cleric does seems the same as what every other cleric does. Like, "oh it's my turn to cast Bless round 1 and your turn to cast Spirit Guardians, round 2 four spiritual weapons appear". Like, I like playing clerics, but not when there's already another cleric.

diplomancer

2022-03-13, 08:07 AM

Yes. Only from people who suggested multiple classes, though, so it didn't look like anyone was saying we should make the party from clerics, so I was hoping to have a discussion about that. Or is it a given that clerics would be good and we're debating some that might be more controversial or take more creativity?

I'm not so sure I agree; Clerics are indeed versatile, but not very synergistic. Spirit Guardians is a great example. Wonderful spell, but there's no value added from more than one casting; on the other hand, even from 5th level they can rotate it, so that there's Spirit Guardians active on every fight, and maybe a couple of other 3rd level spells, but I wouldn't call that synergy exactly.

sambojin

2022-03-13, 09:00 AM

Whilst Druids are generalist casters, they can really specialise through subclasses and races (and backgrounds). For a dream-team:

Bugbear Moon Druid (maybe a Pirate or a magic-giving background, but certainly from Chuult). Take Alert at 4th. Watch those multiattacks mulch everything (deinonychus or bear at lvl2, with +2d6 damage?), yet still be strangely good with a quarterstaff and dagger when you need to stay in caster form. I'd probably plump for high Dex for that initiative regardless, with Con and Wis of smaller concern. All druids become primary casters, no matter how good wildshape is. Alert and high Dex always makes you an amazing caster.

Variant Human Land (grass) Druid with Feytouched/ Bless as their lvl1 feat. A bit of wizard, a bit of cleric, and a lot of druid, all in one package. Why not have Azorious or Boros for your background for Counterspell or more Cleric'y options on your list? Or something with really commonplace social options, but handy skills. +2Wis at 4th, or Resilient(Con) for some variation from the standard. But +2 Wis is the best.

(Could also go Hex for your feytouched, so your party can enhance ability/ guidance someone, and hex the enemy when there's stat checks, but Bless is really nice too. +To-hit and saves > debuffing enemy stat checks when you can already buff your party's so well. You'll be using your wildshape for party familiars, not "yay, Hex let me do more damage in wildshape" stuff. And you have summons that love +to-hit)

Tabaxi Wildfire Druid, with Dragon Casualty as the background. Move quick, be teleporty, and have some fun tales to tell. It's kinda obvious how *you* dodged it, you ran, but it'll never get old in the telling, because it's just one tale of many. Would go high Cha and Dex, with basic'ish Con and Wis to round it out. Talk lots, you are the face, that can be in any place. It's not like your wildfire is all you do, you have insane movement in wildshape as well. I want to say Mobile at 4th, but maybe Sentinel (scary lockdown warhorsey) or a magic feat might be best. Or just +2Wis. That is never the wrong choice with druids.

Tortle Stars Druid, Clan Crafter background. Because, even though you might think you should have a shepherd here, what you really need is a bard. And Weal&Woe does that for you at lvl6, 3x/day, for anything. It is really very handy to destroy or add to saves and checks when they're important. And so you have someone to get in touch with druid circle "crafters of things" (non-metal armour, resizing magic saddles, a resizing magic shield for the Moon druid's lvl10 Air Elemental capstone, etc?). And Stars druids are awesome. You can fulfill the shooter, caster, whatever role. High Wis, high Con, just a really druidy druid, with a bit of extra magic and some armour. Plenty to do in wildshape as well. +Wis at 4th.

Between all the wildshape's different uses, buffing the bejesus out of the party, the fact that you've essentially got an extra party worth's of summoned beasts if you need them at lvl3, and the sheer synergy from a full druid line-up, you'd have a laugh and a half with this party. Even more-so as it levels a bit more too. All the stupid druid tricks, all the time. But by lvl5-6, they will all be so very different in playstyle, but can change it up a fair bit on any given day, that you'd be happy to play as any of them in any adventure.

(There's nearly always goodberries, jumps, longstriders, PwT, enhance ability, so anyone is fast or skilled whenever they need to be. There's usually a bit of guidance or detect magic or speak with animals available as well as rituals. On top of little and big wildshape, summons and familiars. And actual spells as well. Those poor monks, thinking they can just do things....
A druid party can just have a 4x flyby "monks party" for 2hrs a day if they want. Air beasts are about as useful. It gets worse when it becomes teleporting Fey. Lol.
Oh, and the sheer s*f*ery it becomes with three people with Thornwhip and one Spike Growth spell is amazing. Lvl4 is the time to have that :) )

Witty Username

2022-03-13, 01:20 PM

Funnily enough all clerics would be a group I'd be less interested in being a part of, just because so much of what a cleric does seems the same as what every other cleric does. Like, "oh it's my turn to cast Bless round 1 and your turn to cast Spirit Guardians, round 2 four spiritual weapons appear". Like, I like playing clerics, but not when there's already another cleric.
Subclasses help. Having Trickery, Light, and knowledge on hand gives a good pile of different traits not normal to the cleric.
I would go:
Knowledge (gets some skills use and CC effects)
Life(base cleric)
Light (fireball, and some other damage spells)
Trickery (good stealth abilities and spells, polymorph, and a few other goodies)

Wizard does better but cleric is still pretty variable.
Hm, my caster ranking for 4 member bands:
1. Wizard
2. Bard
3. Cleric
4. Druid
5. Warlock (primarily for potential lore issues)
6. Sorcerer

Petrocorus

2022-03-13, 02:11 PM

I'd like to answer to someone who pointed out that Clerics, Paladins, Monks or Druids from different orders would unlikely work together.
I disagree with this.
Cleric from different but allied gods can easily work together, like clerics of Odin, Thor, Heimdall and Tyr could perfectly work together. And a single god can possibly offer 3 or 4 domains. Not to mention the possibility of worshipping a whole pantheon.
Same goes for Paladin.

A specific order of whatever could easily have different speciality and hence people of different subclasses. For instance, catholic monasteries often had librarian monks, healing monks, working monks (brewing, gardening, logistics, etc). That would mean Knowledge, Life, Nature clerics could easily comes from a single church/order.

And of course there are big organisations like the Wardens of the Woods in Eberron or the Harpers in FR which certainly have people from different specialities.
I perfectly see the Gatekeepers gathering a party of one Land, one Moon, one Star and one Dream Druids.

Well, it can't be rangers, because you can only have 3 of them at one time. </old man joke>

And they do put raisins into their porridge.
Darnit, is there another raisin shortage?
May i ask you both to explain this jokes, please.

Alright, level 5, so we're dealing with the Barbarian's relative damage peak. It's basically all downhill for the Barbarian from here.

I may be wrong, but i kinda remember your own DPR calculator shown the Barbarian to be on par with Fighter much above level 5.

Or ~31.4 DPR if they are willing to use a ki whenever they miss by 2 or less (which they should, that's a good use of a ki).
The Focused Aim is an optional feature, IIRC.

That's incorrect. You're assuming you spend the ki every attack. You only spend the ki in the event you miss by 1-2. Therefore, the chance that you blow through 5 ki that way is extremely low. Like, 1 in 10,000 low. So low that it might as well be zero.

There's still something i'm not sure about this. You're using one ki for Flurry of Blow and one for Hand of Harm. Over 2 rounds that's 4 ki, so you only have 1 left for Focused Aim or any other use.
Granted, over 8 attacks, you'll statistically miss by 2 or less only once (less than once actually), but this still seems a bit weird to simply imput a +2 to hit in your calculation.
Maybe you could do the math without Focused Aim and then add 0.1 of an attack's damage to the overall damage over 2 rounds?

LudicSavant

2022-03-13, 03:00 PM

I may be wrong, but i kinda remember your own DPR calculator shown the Barbarian to be on par with Fighter much above level 5. That would depend entirely on which Barbarian, and which Fighter.

Like, are we talking a bog-standard Champion without Advantage? Or what? The Fighter DPR floor and ceiling are far apart from each other.

The Focused Aim is an optional feature, IIRC. It is, yes.

There's still something i'm not sure about this. You're using one ki for Flurry of Blow and one for Hand of Harm. Over 2 rounds that's 4 ki, so you only have 1 left for Focused Aim or any other use.
Granted, over 8 attacks, you'll statistically miss by 2 or less only once (less than once actually), but this still seems a bit weird to simply imput a +2 to hit in your calculation. Good point. Ideally I should account for that for a more precise result.

However I'll note that this would take a good deal extra math and won't actually change the result that much.

Maybe you could do the math without Focused Aim and then add 0.1 of an attack's damage to the overall damage over 2 rounds?

Alas if only it were that simple. See, Focused Aim (creating a guaranteed attack success) is a better use of ki than Flurry or Blows (which adds one attack that can miss) or non-crit Hands of Harm (which is slightly less than the damage of an attack). So I'd have to account for when the opportunities for ki are used up.

Also, the chance to benefit from Focused Aim isn't just 10% over 2 rounds. It's the chance that any of the attacks miss by 1 or 2 (so the chance compounds for every attack over 2 rounds). So I guess if I wanted a simplified lowball estimate I could take the chance that any attack misses by 1 or 2, and dedicate a single ki for that.

Anyways, all of this stuff is not going to result in a huge difference either way. And a huge difference is what was predicted (and hopefully now falsified).

___

Incidentally, because of these very factors, if we were looking at damage over the course of a whole adventuring day, instead of over just two rounds, the efficiency of ki increases (because there are more chances for a crit-Hands of Harm or miss-by-2 event, and every time these events come up your value-per-ki goes up. It's why I mention that Monks have an effect where some of their features are better than they look, for the same reason Divine Smite or a Battle Master's Precision Attack is better than it looks in raw DPR calcs).

heavyfuel

2022-03-13, 03:11 PM

I build my favorite class, Wizards!

1 - Abjurer Iron Wizard-esque tank/controller. VHuman with Armor of Shadows feat if dipping Cleric is allowed, Mountain Dwarf if not.

2 - Bladesinger melee. Straightfoward DEX build

3 - Illusionist CL small race, grab Skill Expert at 1 and the extra skill proficiency. This guy is the skill monkey. Small race means Minor Illusion will always give you a place to hide behind/in.

4 - Evoker/Hexblade (if dips are available) for that nice AoE and eventual Single target damage at 10th/1tth level.

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-13, 04:11 PM

May i ask you both to explain this jokes, please.
No True Scotsman. Feel free to look it up. That was the allusion I was going for.

Petrocorus

2022-03-13, 11:21 PM

That would depend entirely on which Barbarian, and which Fighter.

Like, are we talking a bog-standard Champion without Advantage? Or what? The Fighter DPR floor and ceiling are far apart from each other.

I said the DPR calculator but i was actually thinking about a graphic (based on it) you put out a few years ago, with average DPR by level for the most common melee builds. I remember the GMW Barbarian (Berserker probably) being among the top 3 up until level 18 or 20.

Though it may be older than i remember.

Alas if only it were that simple. See, Focused Aim (creating a guaranteed attack success) is a better use of ki than Flurry or Blows (which adds one attack that can miss)
Not always, i believe. That may depend on the situation and the damage die (i.e monk level).
The subclass too, but we're assuming Mercy here.

or non-crit Hands of Harm (which is slightly less than the damage of an attack).
Agreed.

So I'd have to account for when the opportunities for ki are used up.
Indeed.

Also, the chance to benefit from Focused Aim isn't just 10% over 2 rounds. It's the chance that any of the attacks miss by 1 or 2 (so the chance compounds for every attack over 2 rounds). So I guess if I wanted a simplified lowball estimate I could take the chance that any attack misses by 1 or 2, and dedicate a single ki for that.

Indeed. That would require to calculate a bigger variety of outcomes.
Gosh, i miss the time when combination probabilities were all natural to me.