Viable unarmed build

[Skrum]

As the title.

Table-dependent constraints -
We're going no higher than 10th. The majority of gameplay will be 5th-8th.
No stat-boosting magic items (belt of giant strength, etc.)
------
I'm not here to quibble over the definition of viable - what I mean is a build that isn't essentially strictly worse than the same class, but using a weapon. Every monk, fighter, and barbarian theorycraft I've done fails this test. I.e., I'm not looking to outperform the best melee option, but merely keep pace with the identical character that picks up a weapon. The build doesn't have to be specifically unarmed - natural weapons are fine too.

I honestly suspect this isn't possible. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

[LudicSavant]

As the title.

Table-dependent constraints -
We're going no higher than 10th. The majority of gameplay will be 5th-8th.
No stat-boosting magic items (belt of giant strength, etc.)
------
I'm not here to quibble over the definition of viable - what I mean is a build that isn't essentially strictly worse than the same class, but using a weapon. Every monk, fighter, and barbarian theorycraft I've done fails this test. I.e., I'm not looking to outperform the best melee option, but merely keep pace with the identical character that picks up a weapon. The build doesn't have to be specifically unarmed - natural weapons are fine too.

I honestly suspect this isn't possible. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

So are you basically saying that Monk doesn't qualify because it's better off using Dedicated Weapon than an unarmed strike for its first two attacks, prior to tier 4?

[Ganryu]

1 monk/9 gloomstalker ranger.

Take unarmed fighting style. Key to any really good build.monk 1 let's you do martial arts for an extra attack as bonus action. You get an extra attack and deal 1d8 to everything


Bonk has ungodly damage numbers, but no Ac. (It theoretically keep pace with GWM)

1-3 monk, rest barb (open palm to replicate mobile, barb type does not matter). Grab unarmed fighting style from feat, max out strength.

Pure Beast Barb also works very well, that's its entire purpose.

I like the ranger monk mix myself.

[Pildion]

As the title.

Table-dependent constraints -
We're going no higher than 10th. The majority of gameplay will be 5th-8th.
No stat-boosting magic items (belt of giant strength, etc.)
------
I'm not here to quibble over the definition of viable - what I mean is a build that isn't essentially strictly worse than the same class, but using a weapon. Every monk, fighter, and barbarian theorycraft I've done fails this test. I.e., I'm not looking to outperform the best melee option, but merely keep pace with the identical character that picks up a weapon. The build doesn't have to be specifically unarmed - natural weapons are fine too.

I honestly suspect this isn't possible. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

Just go Fighter:1\Monk:19 and take Unarmed Fighting. if you don't use any weapon or shield you do a d8 and that's equal to anyone using a 1h weapon.

[nickl_2000]

Rune Knight Fighter with Unarmed Fighting Style who focuses on Grappling.

[Ganryu]

Quick question, the munchkin's here absolutely can build an equivalent damage build to what you want, but what's your benchmark, and what level? Want equal to a GWM barb at, say, 6 as mentioned in OP? The 'optimized' viable?

Is this the definition of viable? Or just the everyday fighter champion sword and board is viable?

[Skrum]

So are you basically saying that Monk doesn't qualify because it's better off using Dedicated Weapon than an unarmed strike for its first two attacks, prior to tier 4?

And also....monks are terrible. But yeah, more or less. I want to make an unarmed character where I don't feel like I'm leaving a ton on the table just for flavor purposes.

[LudicSavant]

Quick question, the munchkin's here absolutely can build an equivalent damage build to what you want, but what's your benchmark, and what level? Want equal to a GWM barb at, say, 6 as mentioned in OP? The 'optimized' viable?

Is this the definition of viable? Or just the everyday fighter champion sword and board is viable?

I think his benchmark is "a build that isn't essentially strictly worse than the same class, but using a weapon."

Which is the only reason I think of why he wouldn't count a Monk, because they're better off using Monk weapon than no weapon until their martial arts scales (late). Unless they have magic items that boost unarmed attacks or something.

Edit:
This apparently got posted the same time I posted.


And also....monks are terrible.

I dunno, Monks have gotten some meaningful buffs and new options.

[Skrum]

Quick question, the munchkin's here absolutely can build an equivalent damage build to what you want, but what's your benchmark, and what level? Want equal to a GWM barb at, say, 6 as mentioned in OP? The 'optimized' viable?

Is this the definition of viable? Or just the everyday fighter champion sword and board is viable?

A little better than 1d8 + str would be nice xD.

I tried to get at it in the OP, but the most obvious unarmed builds (monk, fighter, and barb) are just flatly worse than if they'd pick up a weapon - and that's not even getting into monks being bad even with a weapon.

But look at fighter: taking unarmed fighting style means you essentially lose the fighting style to get a longsword that you can't use a shield with, or do d10 damage with. Oh, and can't be magical, and can't TWF with. That's so abysmally bad I feel very comfortable calling it not viable.

[MoiMagnus]

The Eldritch Claw Tattoo (uncommon magic item from Tasha) is great for an unarmed PC. The main issue is that it exists only as a "+1 weapon" if you don't houserule it to also exist as +2/+3 at higher rarity.

[BoutsofInsanity]

"This one needs no weapons!"

I'd go Tiefling (Winged Variant).

Minimum I'd go Fighter 5 (Rune Knight) at the very start. This is going to nab you your Unarmed Fighting Style and the ability to get big, which will be necessary for later.

You have choices at this point between Rogue and Barbarian. You can technically fit them both into your build if you want. But here are the benefits.

Rogue nabs you

Cunning Action for stealth action and extra movement from Dashes
Expertise in Athletics (Absolutely necessary)
Extra skills
Potentially with DM fiat sneak attack on unarmed strikes. (I'd allow it, but others wont.)



Barbarian grabs you

Rage for damage reduction, advantage on athletic checks, and extra damage
Bear Totem increases carrying capacity an absolute must
Unarmored Defense if you get good stats
Fits the theme of a Devil Trigger for your character


You yourself will have to determine your level split. I think Rogue 2/Barbarian 3/ Fighter 5 isn't bad or any combination so long as you have fighter 5.

With Unarmed fighting style you will be doing 1d8 damage. Which is as good as a longsword. In place of a shield or two handing weapons you are going to grapple and shove a lot. This will be in place of your damage mitigation. With Unarmed fighting style you don't need your hands. You can freely grapple two enemies and whip them with your headbutting horns, tail, feet, bite, whatever and still do your damage. Along with, freely dealing an additional 1d4 to one creature grappled by you.

But wait. There is more.

You can fly. With Rogue dashing you can grapple people and fly straight up. Starting adjacent to a person you can grab, bonus action dash, and flying 30 feet into the air with the person. From there you can drop them, punch them on your turn, kick them, whatever all while flying like a demon in the night sky. With the increased carry capacity from Barbarian it will be a cake walk. With Rune Knight you can get large and grapple bigger creatures.

You have access to the powerful Shove Prone / Grapple combo which with advantage from raging, expertise from either a feat or class feature, and focusing on strength will be easy mode. And you can do it to two people at once if you choose.

All you need specifically from the DM is the "Eldritch Claw Tattoo" which will enable your strikes to be magical. If they are generous they can buff it to a +2 which is better.

The build comes online at 5th level when you get extra attack. From that point on you can build out how you like. It's not the most damaging build. But it locks down enemies very well, and is dynamic, flying, can still do damage, and versatile with Rogue levels.

[Ganryu]

I dunno, Beast barbarian dealing 3d6 + 18 per turn, with advantage, is not bad damage. That is completely unarmed. And vanilla, nothing added to it.

Monk, go custom lineage, grab unarmed fighting style. (Later switch to interception or something) 4d8+16 per turn, pretty good damage.

Bonk, Barbarian monk with unarmed fighting style, 3d8+18 with advantage, pretty good. Zealot adds, assuming 6, 3 damage per turn.

Ranger/monk 1, with hunter's mark and hunter's conclave, 4d8+ 3d6+12 per turn. (Highly recommend this one)

These aren't bad damage numbers, and because you can attack with monk as a bonus action, is doing more than standard weapon damage. The beast barbarian was literally built on making it's own weapon, so it's competive too. That rage damage is small, but adds up REAL quick, even if we're abandoning brutal critical at later levels. Always reckless, and always hitting.

I'm not even best munchkin here. I'd bet money someone pimps out fighter even better.

[Unoriginal]

I dunno, Monks have gotten some meaningful buffs and new options.

Monks are great even without those buffs and options. Those options just buffed builds that were not as good.

But given that OP has already moved the goalpost about what a 'viable unarmed build' is (A Monk with Unarmed Fighting Style being just as good as a Monk using weapon at lvl 1-5, and strictly better at lvl 6+, without magic items involved, unless they get racial weapon proficiency for the longsword or the battleaxe) and has declared the Monk to be bad without explanation, I don't forsee a fruitful discussion in this thread.

[Skrum]

Beast barbarian is definitely the best option I've come across so far, and yes, it's not terrible.

I really like the tiefling fighter/barb/rogue build....but I've already got a fairy runic knight/barb grappler in this same game, so unless that character dies, I don't think I'll be making another runic knight.

[Skrum]

Monks are great even without those buffs and options. Those options just buffed builds that were not as good.

But given that OP has already moved the goalpost about what a 'viable unarmed build' is (A Monk with Unarmed Fighting Style being just as good as a Monk using weapon at lvl 1-5, and strictly better at lvl 6+, without magic items involved) and has declared the Monk to be bad without explanation, I don't forsee a fruitful discussion in this thread.

Is that really what I did? Or did I just clarify what I meant, and included a little aside about monks being bad (which they are)

A monk taking unarmed fighting style is on average +1 over pure martial arts, and still worse than a longsword.

[Ganryu]

Is that really what I did? Or did I just clarify what I meant, and included a little aside about monks being bad (which they are)

A monk taking unarmed fighting style is on average +1 over pure martial arts, and still worse than a longsword.


I used to hate monks, thought they were the worst build in the game, but they've definitely been buffed in Tasha's. They were winning the damage numbers of everything I posted earlier. Early levels, they get a ton of unarmed attacks, so that +1 is more like a +5(crits). 4 attacks at d8 isn't bad, and I think blows your long sword out the water.

Its later levels they have an identity problem, post where your campaign is ending.

[LudicSavant]

Monks are great even without those buffs and options. Those options just buffed builds that were not as good.

I'd say the buffs benefited the better Monks, too. Monks just in general got buffed.

[RogueJK]

Beast barbarian is definitely the best option I've come across so far, and yes, it's not terrible.

Lizardfolk Monk 1/Beast Barbarian 5 gets you 4x attacks per turn starting at Character Level 6 (Claw+Claw+Claw+BA Martial Arts Bite), for up to 4d6+8+(4*STRMOD) per turn while raging. With 18 STR, that's an average of 38 points of damage each turn, assuming all four attacks hit. That's only 4 points behind in damage compared to the 2x attacks of a Level 6 Greatsword Fighter with Great Weapon Master (42 average damage if both hit).

Plus it's kinda appropriate for a frenzied Lizardfolk to not bother with armor or weapons...

Your Claw attacks are also magical starting at Barbarian 6, which gets around the "no magical weapons" issue.


And after Monk 1/Barbarian 6, you could even dip further into something like Battlemaster Fighter for a Fighting Style, Action Surge, and Battlemaster Maneuvers for even more added damage.



The main downside is the low unarmored AC of 14-15ish with point buy/standard array. If that matters, then you can swap in Tortle in place of Lizardfolk, giving up an average of 1 damage due to the smaller BA attack damage dice (1d4 vs. 1d6) in exchange for a 17 AC.

[Ganryu]

Lizardfolk Monk 1/Beast Barbarian X gets you 4x attacks per turn starting at Level 6 (Claw+Claw+Claw+BA Bite), for up to 4d6+8+(4*STR) per turn while raging. With 18 STR, that's an average of 38 points of damage each turn, assuming all four attacks hit.

Your Claw attacks are also magical starting at Barbarian 6, which gets around the "no magical weapons" issue.

(It's also appropriate for a Lizardfolk to not bother with armor or weapons...)

Is it bad I love this purely for it being a unique build that's not another variant human/custom lineage? Looks damn good, too.

[Skrum]

I used to hate monks, thought they were the worst build in the game, but they've definitely been buffed in Tasha's. They were winning the damage numbers of everything I posted earlier. Early levels, they get a ton of unarmed attacks, so that +1 is more like a +5(crits). 4 attacks at d8 isn't bad, and I think blows your long sword out the water.

Its later levels they have an identity problem, post where your campaign is ending.

A monk using a longsword will still get 4 attacks, and 2 of those attacks will be strictly better than 2 of the entirely unarmed monk's attacks.

[Unoriginal]

Is that really what I did?

It is, indeed.



a little aside about monks being bad (which they are)

If this is your thesis, you have to demonstrate it.




A monk taking unarmed fighting style is on average +1 over pure martial arts, and still worse than a longsword.

Which confirms you are moving the goalposts. You said your definition of "viable unarmed character" was "not worse than the same character with a weapon".

The only single-classed Monks who can use longswords are High Elves and Githyanki ones (Dwarf Monks can use battleaxe for similar damage), but aside from those every single Monks with Unarmed meets your definition for viable.

Also, no, 1d8+DEX for all unarmed attacks is much more than +1 damage compared to the standard unarmed Monk (1d4+DEX three times if all hits) or Monk with stick (1d8+DEX two times + 1d4+DEX if all hit), assuming no ressource spent, and DEFINITIVELY more than +1 damage if ki is spent.

So even if it was a factor, your calculation is incorrect.

[Frogreaver]

For equal investment weapons are better.

However, monks aren’t far behind with unarmed strikes.

Beast Barbarians generally output more damage without weapons.

There’s really no other unarmed classes. Maybe a moon Druid that wild shapes and polymorph himself?

[Ganryu]

A monk using a longsword will still get 4 attacks, and 2 of those attacks will be strictly better than 2 of the entirely unarmed monk's attacks.

Okay, how do you get the long sword proficiency? :D

Either you pick another race, which means you're missing out on the fighting style. Or you're picking both, which means missing out on dex bonus, which means... you aren't getting the same damage either way.

It's either 2d10+2d6+16, or it's 2d10+2d8+12

It's equal, or worse.

[Skrum]

It is, indeed.



If this is your thesis, you have to demonstrate it.




Which confirms you are moving the goalposts. You said your definition of "viable unarmed character" was "not worse than the same character with a weapon".

The only single-classed Monks who can use longswords are High Elves and Githyanki ones (Dwarf Monks can use battleaxe for similar damage), but aside from those every single Monks with Unarmed meets your definition for viable.

Also, no, 1d8+DEX for all unarmed attacks is much more than +1 damage compared to the standard unarmed Monk (1d4+DEX three times if all hits) or Monk with stick (1d8+DEX two times + 1d4+DEX if all hit), assuming no ressource spent, and DEFINITIVELY more than +1 damage if ki is spent.

So even if it was a factor, your calculation is incorrect.

Thank you for *technically* meeting my original request. I'll keep it in mind.

[ender241]

I'd love to be proven wrong.

Apparently not, lol.

[Ganryu]

So far for damage numbers, we've got

Monk / Hunter Ranger - 40.5 {with setup}
Lizard folk beast barb/monk - 38 consistent {Think winner}
Open hand monk - 34

Any other builds with numbers behind them? I have the feeling there's a fighter combo to be made here as well.

GWM Barb is 45 with reduced accuracy, so I think we're into the 'viable' category so far.

Fireball is 28 btw for comparison.

[Skrum]

Okay, how do you get the long sword proficiency? :D

Either you pick another race, which means you're missing out on the fighting style. Or you're picking both, which means missing out on dex bonus, which means... you aren't getting the same damage either way.

It's either 2d10+2d6+16, or it's 2d10+2d8+12

It's equal, or worse.

Well if you get longsword proficiency, I would assume you wouldn't bother with the fighting style

Longsword would be 2d10+2d6+16, for an average of 33
Unarmed style would be 4d8+16, for an average of 34

Technically better

But - and this is huge - this is only when the character is using flurry of blows, which means it costs Ki. Especially if you want to use very strong options like bonus action dashing and dodging, you will NOT be able to flurry with abandon. And without flurry, the attacks look like

2d10+1d6+12 for 26.5
3d8+12, for 25.5

Technically better in the other direction - but with a weapon, which is far easily to enchant and find loot of, which would of course widen the gap.

I mean this is essentially the problem with unarmed fighting in 5th in a nutshell. You have to spend resources to, at best, reach parity.

[Skrum]

Apparently not, lol.

I was hoping for a build that exceeded my criteria by more than a literal single point of damage. Kind of a RAI vs RAW thing, yah know?

[Ganryu]

Well if you get longsword proficiency, I would assume you wouldn't bother with the fighting style

Longsword would be 2d10+2d6+16, for an average of 33
Unarmed style would be 4d8+16, for an average of 34

Technically better

But - and this is huge - this is only when the character is using flurry of blows, which means it costs Ki. Especially if you want to use very strong options like bonus action dashing and dodging, you will NOT be able to flurry with abandon. And without flurry, the attacks look like

2d10+1d6+12 for 26.5
3d8+12, for 25.5

Technically better in the other direction - but with a weapon, which is far easily to enchant and find loot of, which would of course widen the gap.

I mean this is essentially the problem with unarmed fighting in 5th in a nutshell. You have to spend resources to, at best, reach parity.

But we have reached parity...? Wasn't that the whole point and discussion of the thread? When you have a resource, which lasts 6 rounds, you are outdoing the other. When you are exhausted, you only slightly lose to the weapon?

We're not talking about the barbarian being out of rage, and ki resets on a short rests, unlike rage.

1d8 is equal to most weapon die. A few can outdo it, but not by much. And by having more attacks, we're outdoing them as well. This is outdoing the hell out of the sword and board fighter.

Getting longsword proficiency on a monk isn't a free resource either, you have to build around it. You could have gotten better unarmed strikes for it, so it's an equivalent cost. You can get one, or the other. And either way, you need dex.

We've equalled out.

[Skrum]

But we have reached parity...? Wasn't that the whole point and discussion of the thread? When you have a resource, which lasts 6 rounds, you are outdoing the other. When you are exhausted, you only slightly lose to the weapon?

We're not talking about the barbarian being out of rage, and ki resets on a short rests, unlike rage.

1d8 is equal to most weapon die. A few can outdo it, but not by much. And by having more attacks, we're outdoing them as well. This is outdoing the hell out of the sword and board fighter.

Getting longsword proficiency on a monk isn't a free resource either, you have to build around it. You could have gotten better unarmed strikes for it, so it's an equivalent cost. You can get one, or the other. And either way, you need dex.

We've equalled out.

Sure, I agree with that

[ender241]

I was hoping for a build that exceeded my criteria by more than a literal single point of damage. Kind of a RAI vs RAW thing, yah know?

So now you're asking for an unarmed build that outperforms a weapon build? What? People gave you what you apparently wanted. Now it's clear you didn't want to be proven wrong, you wanted to be proven right.

[Ganryu]

Also, soul knife for 39.5 flat dpr.

[strangebloke]

Given your constraints, literally just take unarmed fighting style and you're there.

Unarmed fighting makes you deal more damage while grappling, which you can't do effectively while using a shield, offhand weapon, or two handed weapon. So while 'picking up a weapon' might be a smart thing to do when fighting creatures that can't be grappled, that's really a minority of all enemies and generally you'll be best off using your fists. Of course you can grapple while fighting with one weapon in your offhand like a longsword, but this is no better than fighting unarmed.

Something like the following:

BM vhuman with tavern brawler as first feat, skill expert at level 4. Unarmed fighting style. Trip attack and two other maneuvers of your choice. Hit on first attack, use superiority die for trip attack, then BA grapple. If everything lands (it won't always, but pretty often and you can attempt this 4 times per short rest) the second attack will have +1d4 damage and advantage. On the enemy's turn, they can't stand up or move without contesting your grapple (this takes their entire action) and they'll probably fail anyway. They can attack you, but only with disadvantage and you're a fighter with 18 AC or more. If you have other DPR characters in the party they'll likely melt the person you've put into the submission hold, but if they don't you'll start next round with 1d4 damage for free, then +1d4 damage per attack and advantage.

Activate eldritch claw before the battle and use action surge on a grapple-prone opponent to really make the damage stack up. At 6th level you can do: 1d4+(1d8+1d4+1d6+5)*4=64.5 while having advantage.

I've been playing this exact character for most of a year now, and I've been kicking butt. It's a bit of a feast or famine build, since I'm a lot less effective against huge enemies or enemies who can teleport out of grapples, but otherwise if I can grapple you, you're dead within a turn almost always.

[Skrum]

So now you're asking for an unarmed build that outperforms a weapon build? What? People gave you what you apparently wanted. Now it's clear you didn't want to be proven wrong, you wanted to be proven right.

Well I wanted to say "unarmed build that's actually good," but that's a lot harder to parse, and I knew I'd only get pedants. So I tried a different wording.

I think if you read what I wrote even slightly charitably, you'd know what I was talking about.

[Skrum]

Given your constraints, literally just take unarmed fighting style and you're there.

Unarmed fighting makes you deal more damage while grappling, which you can't do effectively while using a shield, offhand weapon, or two handed weapon. So while 'picking up a weapon' might be a smart thing to do when fighting creatures that can't be grappled, that's really a minority of all enemies and generally you'll be best off using your fists. Of course you can grapple while fighting with one weapon in your offhand like a longsword, but this is no better than fighting unarmed.

Something like the following:

BM vhuman with tavern brawler as first feat, skill expert at level 4. Unarmed fighting style. Trip attack and two other maneuvers of your choice. Hit on first attack, use superiority die for trip attack, then BA grapple. If everything lands (it won't always, but pretty often and you can attempt this 4 times per short rest) the second attack will have +1d4 damage and advantage. On the enemy's turn, they can't stand up or move without contesting your grapple (this takes their entire action) and they'll probably fail anyway. They can attack you, but only with disadvantage and you're a fighter with 18 AC or more. If you have other DPR characters in the party they'll likely melt the person you've put into the submission hold, but if they don't you'll start next round with 1d4 damage for free, then +1d4 damage per attack and advantage.

Activate eldritch claw before the battle and use action surge on a grapple-prone opponent to really make the damage stack up. At 6th level you can do: 1d4+(1d8+1d4+1d6+5)*4=64.5 while having advantage.

I've been playing this exact character for most of a year now, and I've been kicking butt. It's a bit of a feast or famine build, since I'm a lot less effective against huge enemies or enemies who can teleport out of grapples, but otherwise if I can grapple you, you're dead within a turn almost always.

Yeah this is strong, I like this. What is all the damage from, just out of curiosity?

[strangebloke]

Yeah this is strong, I like this. What is all the damage from, just out of curiosity?

Unarmed style gives you 1d8 base weapon damage and 1d4 bonus damage when hitting a grappled foe AND 1d4 damage when you start a turn grappling a foe.
Eldritch claw makes your unarmed strike a +1 weapon and can be activated 1/LR for 1d6 additional damage per hit (Also +15 foot range that you can arguably grapple with. This item is nuts)
Vhuman fighter with the feats mentioned can have 18 STR by level six. Clineage can get to 20, which gives you more.
four attacks with action surge

You can technically burn the rest of your SD (3 of them) to push the damage to 82 72 with Clineage. But admittedly this is sort of theoretical.

[RogueJK]

Unarmed style gives you 1d8 base weapon damage and 1d4 bonus damage when hitting a grappled foe AND 1d4 damage when you start a turn grappling a foe.

Where's the extra d4 bonus damage on each hit coming from?

Unarmed Fighting Style reads:

"Your unarmed strikes can deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier on a hit. If you aren’t wielding any weapons or a shield when you make the attack roll, the d6 becomes a d8. At the start of each of your turns, you can deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage to one creature grappled by you."


That's one instance of +1d4 to one grappled creature, once per turn. There's no mention of +1d4 every time you hit any grappled foe...

[Ganryu]

Was in the UA, but changed for official release on Unarmed strikes. The extra 1d4 bit.

[strangebloke]

Where's the extra d4 bonus damage on each hit coming from?

Unarmed Fighting Style reads:

"Your unarmed strikes can deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier on a hit. If you aren’t wielding any weapons or a shield when you make the attack roll, the d6 becomes a d8. At the start of each of your turns, you can deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage to one creature grappled by you."


That's one instance of +1d4 to a grappled creature, once per turn. There's no mention of +1d4 every time you hit a grappled foe...

Lol, you're right. I've been running this way for most of a year, just going off what my DM told me when I made my character. I didn't have tasha's then and never checked after I got it.

Was in the UA, but changed for official release on Unarmed strikes. The extra 1d4 bit.

That explains it. So ten less damage total than what I posted. Still, a pretty effective lockdown build.

...The real question is whether I correct my DM.

[RogueJK]

So ten less damage total than what I posted.

That 54ish damage at Level 6 is assuming A) Eldritch Claw tattoo, B) Action Surge, and C) 20 STR. So it's only doable with a specific magic item, and only once per short rest, and only if you have a very generous stat spread.

Otherwise, with a more reasonable 18 STR (which is what some others have been assuming in their Tier 2 builds), you're looking at a repeatable 2d8+8+1d4 in non-Action Surge turn without that specific Tattoo, or an average of only 19.5 points of damage in a turn. That'd then work out to be 36.5 in a turn when you Action Surge. While burning Battlemaster Maneuvers can boost that a bit 4 times per short rest, even then that's only another 3.5 points or so per Maneuver applied. So if you burned your Action Surge and all 4x Maneuver Dice together in one turn that's an average of 54.5 damage, as a once per Short Rest nova turn. Then it's back to 20ish points per turn for the remainder of combat rounds until the next Short Rest.

So that build's damage output over the course of multiple rounds or especially over the course of the entire adventuring day is going to lag noticeably behind several of the other builds suggested, like the Hunter Ranger/Monk, the Beast Barb/Monk, or even just the standard Open Hand Monk. None of which relied on a specific magic item like the Eldritch Claw tattoo, and all of which have consistently higher repeatable damage every turn.


Though the Trip Attack+Attack+BA Grapple lockdown effect is certainly handy, and good use of your otherwise unused BA.

[Unoriginal]

I think if you read what I wrote even slightly charitably, you'd know what I was talking about.

I think pretty much everyone knows what you wanted to talk about.


Compared to what you'd have gotten if you wrote what you wanted, I think it was charitable to respond to what you wrote rather than what you meant.

[Ganryu]

Now, now, let's play nice. Originally Op wanted an equal build. That has been met several times. We have a few testimonials of it in play(thanks strabgebloke). Now Op wants a kickass build. Nothing wrong with that, there's enough munchkins on here we'll meet that.

Can you make a viable unarmed build? Boom, done.

Now... can we make it optimized?

[Unoriginal]

Now, now, let's play nice. Originally Op wanted an equal build. That has been met several times. We have a few testimonials of it in play(thanks strabgebloke). Now Op wants a kickass build. Nothing wrong with that, there's enough munchkins on here we'll meet that.

Can you make a viable unarmed build? Boom, done.

Now... can we make it optimized?

Tortle Mercy Monk.

Go full STR and WIS. Take Fighting Initiate: Unarmed Fighting Style at lvl 4.

At lvl 6, assuming all attacks hit, you can deal 3d8+(3*STR)+3d6+(3*WIS) and inflict the poisoned condition.

[strangebloke]

That 54ish damage at Level 6 is assuming A) Eldritch Claw tattoo, B) Action Surge, and C) 20 STR. So it's only doable with a specific magic item, and and only once per short rest, and only if you have a very generous stat spread.

Otherwise, with a more reasonable 18 STR (which is what some others have been assuming in their Tier 2 builds), you're looking at a repeatable 2d8+8+1d4 in non-Action Surge without that specific Tattoo, or an average of only 19.5 points of damage in a turn. Burning Battlemaster Maneuvers will boost that in some turns, but even then that's only another 3.5 points or so.

So that build lags behind some of the others suggested, like the Hunter Ranger or the Beast Barb/Monk.

You're being really combative here and I'm not sure why? I never said it was the best, just one that I've used and enjoyed. People familiar with me know I love the monk class as well. But to your points:

A) OP specified no stat-boosting items, I'm sticking to that, but if they're not aware of the EC tattoo its worth mentioning. In many campaigns requesting 1 specific item is fair game, and the EC tattoo is pretty much the best. It does a lot of things for this build, especially because this build doesn't get magic attacks. It's also really really good for unarmed builds in general and getting access to an EC tattoo is reason enough to consider going unarmed by itself.

B) Sure? But it isn't like people are doing only resourceless damage calcs here? Rage and Ki and the Gloomstalker's first-turn bonus have all come up here. I think I was pretty clear that this was a nova turn. Nova turns are fun, and sometimes really useful!

C) 54.5 was assuming 18 STR, not 20. The +5 represents 4 from STR and 1 from the enhancement bonus of the EC tattoo.

But yeah, the point is lockdown more than damage. Even then, 2d8+8+1d4 is pretty good for resourceless damage, especially you also get a 'free' grapple grapple attempt. What's most fun here though is having two maneuvers free. Commanding Presence and Commander's Strike (to work with the rogue) were my picks, but Ambush can also give you lots of mileage.

[Jak]

As the title.

Table-dependent constraints -
We're going no higher than 10th. The majority of gameplay will be 5th-8th.
No stat-boosting magic items (belt of giant strength, etc.)
------
I'm not here to quibble over the definition of viable - what I mean is a build that isn't essentially strictly worse than the same class, but using a weapon. Every monk, fighter, and barbarian theorycraft I've done fails this test. I.e., I'm not looking to outperform the best melee option, but merely keep pace with the identical character that picks up a weapon. The build doesn't have to be specifically unarmed - natural weapons are fine too.

I honestly suspect this isn't possible. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

Point buy


Regular human

Stats:
S 16
D 14
C 14
I 9
W 15
Ch 10


Monk 1 for martial arts to weaponize your bonus action
Beast barbarian 3 for rage damage, reckless attack, and claws
Monk x for flurry and other ki features.

When I thought up this build the other day, I fancied a more saving throw focused subclass like open hand, or possibly ascendant dragon.


The idea is that you capitalize on having a bunch of attacks (3 when you hit level 4, 4 when you flurry at level 5 and up, 5 when you hit level 8 and get extra attack) by adding rage damage and reckless attack. I like to think of it as a kaioken build.

I don't remember my numbers, but I do remember that it kept up with or exceeded Treantmonk's dpr baseline all the way up to level 20 when raging and flurrying.



What do y'all think?

[CMCC]

I have multiple. Check my latest in the sig.

[Sherlockpwns]

It got mentioned briefly earlier but the soul knife is technically “unarmed” and can kick out some big damage. You can even add both duelist and thrown weapon fighting styles on top for +4dpr each.

Maybe not the archetype you are looking for but would likely out perform the goal.

[kazaryu]

As the title.

Table-dependent constraints -
We're going no higher than 10th. The majority of gameplay will be 5th-8th.
No stat-boosting magic items (belt of giant strength, etc.)
------
I'm not here to quibble over the definition of viable - what I mean is a build that isn't essentially strictly worse than the same class, but using a weapon. Every monk, fighter, and barbarian theorycraft I've done fails this test. I.e., I'm not looking to outperform the best melee option, but merely keep pace with the identical character that picks up a weapon. The build doesn't have to be specifically unarmed - natural weapons are fine too.

I honestly suspect this isn't possible. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

i mean, basically any character is going to be better off in the first couple of levels by grabbing a weapon, although that can be mitigated somewhat if you go with a race that has natural weapons. that aside

beast barbarian: at level 3 when you rage you get 2 attacks on your attack action. thats 2d6+2xstr+2x rage vs 2d6+str+rage. its objectively more damage. and even when you get to 5 you have 3d6+3xstr+3xrage vs 4d6+2xstr+2xrage. so as long as your rage+str is greater than a d6 of damage, its still going to outperform damage wise. the only time this changes is if you use a feat to grab GWM, then obviously the great weapon barb can do better.

although if you use your lvl 4 ASI to grab the dual weilgin feat, you can also TWF with your claws (at least as I've read it you can, since your claws count as 'weapons that you're weilding'...obviously thats open to interpretation. and if you MC at level 6 to grab the TWF fighting style your offhand attack is as good as your main hand. giving you a total damage of 4d6+4xstr+4xrage, modified by accuracy of course. so at level 6, the 2xstr+2xrage should be around the same as the +10 to damage from GWF, but you don't take teh accuracy hit. you could also start with the feat by going v.human, letting you use your lvl 4 asi boosting str for even more damage. but then your first 2 levels are obviously gonna be rough. so im not sure i'd recomend it.

[Schwann145]

You want to fist fight the dragon, but you also want the fist fighting to be just as good as the sword slashing or polearm poking?

Sometimes I hate D&D 😂

[Skrum]

You want to fist fight the dragon, but you also want the fist fighting to be just as good as the sword slashing or polearm poking?

Sometimes I hate D&D 😂

Don't make it an option if it's not really an option, haha.

[JNAProductions]

Don't make it an option if it's not really an option, haha.

It is 100% an option. Straight Monk gets you good damage, mobility, defenses, and a few neat tricks like Stunning Strike.

If all you care about is damage, Unarmed Fighting style helps.

[Witty Username]

Way of mercy monk gets hands of harm which only works with unarmed strikes. More opportunities to land autosuccess poison is definitely good.