Downtime Activity, Noncombat, and Work XP

[Great cthulhu]

Disclaimer: I recently asked this question to a facebook page and got completely bombarded with posts like "JuSt UsE mIlEsToNe". I have been a DM for years and have been using milestone for years. Please do not post on here telling me to use milestone.

I am starting a campaign that has a particular emphasis on open worldliness and player autonomy. There is no real fixed "main quest" and the players are more or less free to do what they like. The game is set in the town of saltmarsh (the one from faerun not greyhawk) as that is where work is readily available.

One thing I wanted to do in this particular campaign is have the players spend more time in town. Im using the gritty realism DMG rule (7 day long rest) so they have to spend some time recovering from their injuries after each adventure. This gives them time to do work for a living, spend time doing a downtime activity, or just generally exploring the town. One thing I want to do is to award XP for doing work or downtime activities. I want them to be able to start a business or become a captain of the guard while also developing from their work. The XP gain somehow has to be cumulative. It cannot be a flat number as they would level up quickly in the beginning but stagnate towards the late game

Has anybody tried to award XP for jobs or downtime activities? Does anybody have a system in place that can do it well?

thank you very much

[MoiMagnus]

I've never tried it (because we use milestones even in open-world campaign without a main plot), but the first thing that come to my mind to to assign a CR to the activities and deduce XP from it.

Chances are that the PCs won't do exactly the same activity, and their business will scale up in some way, and that would match an increase in CR.

[Unoriginal]

Disclaimer: I recently asked this question to a facebook page and got completely bombarded with posts like "JuSt UsE mIlEsToNe". I have been a DM for years and have been using milestone for years. Please do not post on here telling me to use milestone.

I am starting a campaign that has a particular emphasis on open worldliness and player autonomy. There is no real fixed "main quest" and the players are more or less free to do what they like. The game is set in the town of saltmarsh (the one from faerun not greyhawk) as that is where work is readily available.

One thing I wanted to do in this particular campaign is have the players spend more time in town. Im using the harsh reality DMG rule (7 day long rest) so they have to spend some time recovering from their injuries after each adventure. This gives them time to do work for a living, spend time doing a downtime activity, or just generally exploring the town. One thing I want to do is to award XP for doing work or downtime activities. I want them to be able to start a business or become a captain of the guard while also developing from their work. The XP gain somehow has to be cumulative. It cannot be a flat number as they would level up quickly in the beginning but stagnate towards the late game

Has anybody tried to award XP for jobs or downtime activities? Does anybody have a system in place that can do it well?

thank you very much

Do you want all the downtime activities to give the same XPs?

As in, do you think someone who spend a week partying and gambling should get the same XPs as someone who spend the same time pit fighting or training dogs or handling the weapon stocks of the king's army?

[Great cthulhu]

Maybe, maybe not. It would largely depend on what system I will end up using. Potentially one idea is that some activities award more XP depending on the class (crime for rogues, scholarly work for wizards, religious duties for clerics and so on) but I think instead I would institute a bonus (or perhaps in some tasks an outright requirement) based on background.

[Mellack]

Can I ask why you want to award generic class xp rather than use the existing downtime rules to give them things like earned gold or languages or tool proficiency?

[Kurt Kurageous]

Can I ask why you want to award generic class xp rather than use the existing downtime rules to give them things like earned gold or languages or tool proficiency?

Ditto. Your gritty realism is going to make this feasible. It's just not as feasible in other modes.

Make the players state what their downtime objective is and tell you how they meet it. Award their goal as they spend adequate time.

Otherwise, go develop a crafting system. No, seriously, don't do that.

[Great cthulhu]

Can I ask why you want to award generic class xp rather than use the existing downtime rules to give them things like earned gold or languages or tool proficiency?

The languages and tool proficiency training is their own seperate downtime activity and costs money to learn, which is an important factor. I kind of imagined that they are the monetary award, much like treasure or magic items, but there is experience related to class involved learning them, just like there would be with combat.

[Doug Lampert]

Ditto. Your gritty realism is going to make this feasible. It's just not as feasible in other modes.

Make the players state what their downtime objective is and tell you how they meet it. Award their goal as they spend adequate time.

Otherwise, go develop a crafting system. No, seriously, don't do that.

I'll add that PCs don't get XP for downtime. They advance as adventurers for doing risky things that overcome challenges, if something in "downtime" is a risky thing where they have to overcome a significant challenge, that is called an "adventure".

Verisimilitude wise: If people gain XP for working at their job then the world is ruled by very old elves, except they were all killed by the even older demons who have been gaining XP for thousands and thousands of years.

If you want to have people advance in downtime, then you can (a) add a training requirement to level, (b) add a small (very small) bonus to XP for spending the money you gain on an adventure in town on things like training, or wine women and song, or donations to the temple, or anything else that explains why you start the next adventure poor (gives gold a use), or (c) just say that you can only advance in level during a long rest.

[Great cthulhu]

I'll add that PCs don't get XP for downtime. They advance as adventurers for doing risky things that overcome challenges, if something in "downtime" is a risky thing where they have to overcome a significant challenge, that is called an "adventure".

Verisimilitude wise: If people gain XP for working at their job then the world is ruled by very old elves, except they were all killed by the even older demons who have been gaining XP for thousands and thousands of years.

If you want to have people advance in downtime, then you can (a) add a training requirement to level, (b) add a small (very small) bonus to XP for spending the money you gain on an adventure in town on things like training, or wine women and song, or donations to the temple, or anything else that explains why you start the next adventure poor (gives gold a use), or (c) just say that you can only advance in level during a long rest.

the problem with your analysis is that tenth level adventurers encountering four goblins is about as routine for them as visiting any job that even has the smallest risk to your life. The exact same logic can be applied to many of the professions in the world. Imagine being plopped into the role of captain of a fishing trawler and told to make a massive quota. You cant just do it, its a risky situation without proper training. You could even possibly die. I am changing the rules slightly to include non-risky options, as long as they are at least moderately difficult for the players.

[JellyPooga]

I would keep it low. Maybe offer several "Grades" of activity that earn higher or lower XP but for different costs/rewards?

Like maybe "Research at the Library" costs you gold, but offers 3d6XP and a small chance of finding something useful (rare lore, hidden history or even a magic scroll), whereas "Chopping Wood" pays a small amount of gold but gives you 4d6XP for strength training and learning woodlore with the other cutters. Then something really mundane like warhouse work just pays gold but offers only 1d6XP.

I would be inclined to offer any downtime activity its own unique rewards, including something fixed (gold usually), something random (I'm inclined to make this the XP element) and then a chance of something special (the "you find a book of hidden lore" or "you stumble on fairy cache in the forest" events).

[Great cthulhu]

I would keep it low. Maybe offer several "Grades" of activity that earn higher or lower XP but for different costs/rewards?

Like maybe "Research at the Library" costs you gold, but offers 3d6XP and a small chance of finding something useful (rare lore, hidden history or even a magic scroll), whereas "Chopping Wood" pays a small amount of gold but gives you 4d6XP for strength training and learning woodlore with the other cutters. Then something really mundane like warhouse work just pays gold but offers only 1d6XP.

I would be inclined to offer any downtime activity its own unique rewards, including something fixed (gold usually), something random (I'm inclined to make this the XP element) and then a chance of something special (the "you find a book of hidden lore" or "you stumble on fairy cache in the forest" events).

I like these ideas a lot. I agree that the gold should probably be fixed, and players can earn some kind of "raise" 1d6 xp is pathetic, but I understand where you are going with that idea. I think I am somehow going to take it by some kind of grade proportional to their level multiplied by however successful their checks will be.

[Mellack]

Do you want them to be able to level from doing downtime activities? You need to decide that and grant amounts accordingly. Realize that if the rewards for doing safe downtime activities is sufficiently high, it negates the need for your party to actually go on adventures.

[Great cthulhu]

Do you want them to be able to level from doing downtime activities? You need to decide that and grant amounts accordingly. Realize that if the rewards for doing safe downtime activities is sufficiently high, it negates the need for your party to actually go on adventures.

I also theorized that problem, and I found a quite easy solution.
a) the work week only happens once per session, at the beginning of each session, and if they are on an adventure it may not even happen at all that session. Players cannot just say "I wanna pass the week, I wanna pass the week, I wanna pass the week" and level up to 20th level. I essentially made it so that if they wanted to do that they wouldnt really be having any fun at all.

b) The XP gain is moderate, but will not be nearly as high as adventuring. Adventures yeild far more gold and XP than a workweek ever would. Its more or less a 20 minute narrative that has the potential be interesting or go on longer and it awards some realistic money and XP.

[PhantomSoul]

I'd tend not to want to give EXP at all, both for worldbuilding (but saying NPCs have "profession" classes could fit thematically) and for preserving combat/adventure motivations (but it could be flipped where downtime creates fetch quest or blockade-resolving adventures).

We use downtime for moderately passive income, for moderately passive training/retraining (tools, weapons, manoeuvres/abilities, spell creation, etc.). I say passively because rolls and minor risks are involved, but if it were to become the main objective I'd probably suggest moving to a proficiency point system like skill points and having downtime be where you train those abilities in higher safety, while adventuring gives you more scattered abilities.

One risk for EXP isn't just that PCs/players might not see a desire to adventure (I suppose that can be worked around), but also that PCs would reasonably benefit very differently (crucially different amounts of EXP). The groups I'm in like to keep everyone at the same level, so for our groups getting EXP that feels so individual could be a problem, and splitting the EXP could reinforce the advantage of preferring things that give something other than EXP (gold if not shared, items, proficiencies).

[Great cthulhu]

I'd tend not to want to give EXP at all, both for worldbuilding (but saying NPCs have "profession" classes could fit thematically) and for preserving combat/adventure motivations (but it could be flipped where downtime creates fetch quest or blockade-resolving adventures).

We use downtime for moderately passive income, for moderately passive training/retraining (tools, weapons, manoeuvres/abilities, spell creation, etc.). I say passively because rolls and minor risks are involved, but if it were to become the main objective I'd probably suggest moving to a proficiency point system like skill points and having downtime be where you train those abilities in higher safety, while adventuring gives you more scattered abilities.

One risk for EXP isn't just that PCs/players might not see a desire to adventure (I suppose that can be worked around), but also that PCs would reasonably benefit very differently (crucially different amounts of EXP). The groups I'm in like to keep everyone at the same level, so for our groups getting EXP that feels so individual could be a problem, and splitting the EXP could reinforce the advantage of preferring things that give something other than EXP (gold if not shared, items, proficiencies).

What I find really problematic about your stance on this is your emphasis that all DMs play the same way. Some DMs like political intrigue, some like hack n' slash. My DM for many years did a cynical swords and sorcery mercenary company style game with bounties and contracts. When you say "we use downtime activity for etc..." who are you referring to? All DMs? Everybody DMs a different way, and I think I speak for all DMs when I say we like to experiment sometimes. What I am doing is expanding downtime activity. If you dont like that in your games, dont do it. There is no concrete narrative for how somebody structures their games.

[Burley]

So, not quite milestones, not quite XP:
There's another game called Blades in the Dark that I played (I know this mechanics is shared with other titles of the publisher, but I only played this one game). In that game, there's rules for downtime and they essentially consist of a clock that ticks down as time is invested in the activity. But, we drew it on paper like pie slices that get filled in as the clock ticks.

So, for downtime, let's say your Wizard wants to research a new spell. The player and DM decide together to set the clock to 8. Each "downtime session" your Wizard devotes to research gets you a new pie slice in the clock and an sufficiently high Arcana roll may get you a second slice in the same session, but the Arcana check should be difficult because they're automatically getting one success. When the clock is full, they have the spell.
Basically, the player and DM set a goal, agree on how long it will take and what relevant skill may speed up the process. They're rewarded with in-game growth (spells, armaments, information, training) rather than XP.

This way, players don't feel like they can "cheat the system" and get extra XP (and faster levels). And, players who don't feel like doing downtime activities won't feel like they're falling behind. If the fighter just wants to drink in the bar, they shouldn't really fall behind in levels because the cleric wants to work at the orphanage.

[Great cthulhu]

So, not quite milestones, not quite XP:
There's another game called Blades in the Dark that I played (I know this mechanics is shared with other titles of the publisher, but I only played this one game). In that game, there's rules for downtime and they essentially consist of a clock that ticks down as time is invested in the activity. But, we drew it on paper like pie slices that get filled in as the clock ticks.

So, for downtime, let's say your Wizard wants to research a new spell. The player and DM decide together to set the clock to 8. Each "downtime session" your Wizard devotes to research gets you a new pie slice in the clock and an sufficiently high Arcana roll may get you a second slice in the same session, but the Arcana check should be difficult because they're automatically getting one success. When the clock is full, they have the spell.
Basically, the player and DM set a goal, agree on how long it will take and what relevant skill may speed up the process. They're rewarded with in-game growth (spells, armaments, information, training) rather than XP.

This way, players don't feel like they can "cheat the system" and get extra XP (and faster levels). And, players who don't feel like doing downtime activities won't feel like they're falling behind. If the fighter just wants to drink in the bar, they shouldn't really fall behind in levels because the cleric wants to work at the orphanage.

Congrats you gave me an absolutely horrible yet amazing idea. What if I divided every feature of a character's next level (abilities, new spell slots etc) and required them to complete a certain task in order to unlock them. For example, if a cleric wanted his destroy undead ability he would have to pray and do church services to obtain it. If a warrior wanted a new fighting style he would have to train at the local armory in order to get it. The restriction would be that you cannot get the features of the next level until all the features of the previous level are unlocked and the player would subsiquently "level up"

[PhantomSoul]

What I find really problematic about your stance on this is your emphasis that all DMs play the same way. Some DMs like political intrigue, some like hack n' slash. My DM for many years did a cynical swords and sorcery mercenary company style game with bounties and contracts. When you say "we use downtime activity for etc..." who are you referring to? All DMs? Everybody DMs a different way, and I think I speak for all DMs when I say we like to experiment sometimes. What I am doing is expanding downtime activity. If you dont like that in your games, dont do it. There is no concrete narrative for how somebody structures their games.

Oh, I don't expect people to play the same way -- that's why I gave context for my groups and how we've done things. When I say "we", I mean "the groups I've been in"; it really is "we". I love downtime, but I've found it works best when everyone's on the same page for how it works! WegroupsI'mIn've expanded downtime and created systems for it and it's been great -- I think you may have made the wrong assumptions about the post! (And I may have made the wrong ones about the OP; it didn't sound like an urban political intrigue in context, but perhaps that was wrong.)

[Burley]

Congrats you gave me an absolutely horrible yet amazing idea. What if I divided every feature of a character's next level (abilities, new spell slots etc) and required them to complete a certain task in order to unlock them. For example, if a cleric wanted his destroy undead ability he would have to pray and do church services to obtain it. If a warrior wanted a new fighting style he would have to train at the local armory in order to get it. The restriction would be that you cannot get the features of the next level until all the features of the previous level are unlocked and the player would subsiquently "level up"

If you're truly asking "What if...", my answer is: You'd make the game unfun and needlessly grindy. Gaining levels means you get new abilities. This other thing should be for extras: Crafting magic items or mundane equipment, research, information gathering. Don't make the players jump though hoops for the necessities.

Or, perhaps a better answer is: You can do that, but don't do it with D&D 5e. Find a different game where abilities are more modular, like GURPS. Mutants and Masterminds is a good one, but it maaaay actually be based on GURPS.

[Great cthulhu]

Oh, I don't expect people to play the same way -- that's why I gave context for my groups and how we've done things. When I say "we", I mean "the groups I've been in"; it really is "we". I love downtime, but I've found it works best when everyone's on the same page for how it works! WegroupsI'mIn've expanded downtime and created systems for it and it's been great -- I think you may have made the wrong assumptions about the post! (And I may have made the wrong ones about the OP; it didn't sound like an urban political intrigue in context, but perhaps that was wrong.)

My apologies. You are right. Perhaps I was being too agressive and not understanding what you mean. I think its always important to compare playstyles for information. Maybe it was the "I normally do milestones but..." that put me off. Totally not your fault but I just got so many of those kinds of replies on my last thread.

[Great cthulhu]

If you're truly asking "What if...", my answer is: You'd make the game unfun and needlessly grindy. Gaining levels means you get new abilities. This other thing should be for extras: Crafting magic items or mundane equipment, research, information gathering. Don't make the players jump though hoops for the necessities.

Or, perhaps a better answer is: You can do that, but don't do it with D&D 5e. Find a different game where abilities are more modular, like GURPS. Mutants and Masterminds is a good one, but it maaaay actually be based on GURPS.

Yeah on multiple occasions I began to recognize that the kinds of things I am doing may warrant a different system, but I figure If I make it simple and snappy enough it shouldnt be a problem. I still hold that going on quests and completing class specific tasks for abilities could be fun and engaging, and likely wouldnt appear grindy. As for mutants and masterminds, my game groups have had a mixed experience with it. I didnt vibe well with the "everything is a superpower" notion of the game as well as the abilities being capped at 10. Although that being said, playing M&M with a bunch of people do were not superhero fans was some of the most enjoyable madness I have ever witnessed.

[PhantomSoul]

My apologies. You are right. Perhaps I was being too agressive and not understanding what you mean. I think its always important to compare playstyles for information. Maybe it was the "I normally do milestones but..." that put me off. Totally not your fault but I just got so many of those kinds of replies on my last thread.


If it helps, most of the campaigns I've been in haven't used milestones! (And the ones with the most developed downtime systems didn't, but that's mainly a coincidence; the downtime still didn't give EXP, mainly because our groups have kept everyone at the same level consistently.)


If you're truly asking "What if...", my answer is: You'd make the game unfun and needlessly grindy. Gaining levels means you get new abilities. This other thing should be for extras: Crafting magic items or mundane equipment, research, information gathering. Don't make the players jump though hoops for the necessities.

Or, perhaps a better answer is: You can do that, but don't do it with D&D 5e. Find a different game where abilities are more modular, like GURPS. Mutants and Masterminds is a good one, but it maaaay actually be based on GURPS.

I think there's a reasonable middle ground, but it would still be an increase in homebrewing: things using your proficiency bonus take training for the extra point. So you train with weapons (attack rolls), train in spells (spell attack and spell save), train in skills and tools, etc., but your sneak attack and rages and spell slots increment automatically, and new abilities are gained with no more than fluff in-game.

I could see groups loving it (and I think if the kinks were ironed out it could be tons of fun, and maybe even be a way to improve customisation or individualisation, depending on the homebrewed system). And it seems especially good with skill points (assigned in downtime or while adventuring based on in-game earning/training), which is a soft spot of mine.

[Great cthulhu]

I think there's a reasonable middle ground, but it would still be an increase in homebrewing: things using your proficiency bonus take training for the extra point. So you train with weapons (attack rolls), train in spells (spell attack and spell save), train in skills and tools, etc., but your sneak attack and rages and spell slots increment automatically, and new abilities are gained with no more than fluff in-game.

I could see groups loving it (and I think if the kinks were ironed out it could be tons of fun, and maybe even be a way to improve customisation or individualisation, depending on the homebrewed system). And it seems especially good with skill points (assigned in downtime or while adventuring based on in-game earning/training), which is a soft spot of mine.

Let me be clear. I really want to do this system now. But whenever I would use this theoretical system, it would not be this current group under any circumstances. They are all very new players who are inexperienced with D&D and I do not want to go too off the rails to the extent that the players would recognize my experimental game changing system as a fundamental core of a regular game. Thats why I am trying to keep the week system I am doing in the low. A fun background gimmick of expanded activities with a concrete xp bonus. Whatever new DM they get could easily explain "long rests are faster now" and the confusion would be instantly resolved.

[clash]

There is a table in the basic roles I think, that I used to use all the time before switching to milestone leveling. The table shows how difficult an expected experience threshold is for the parties level. For skill based encounters or downtime activities I used it in reverse. First decided how difficult the encounter was then cross referenced how much exp it should be worth. That will scale with level for you and wel have set amounts per task difficulty.

[Kane0]

I hadnt really considered it, but since I brewed some changes to downtime I guess I would reward XP equal to what your check result for that week of downtime.

[PattThe]

2e had a pile of class-based ways to earn exp aside from treasure and monsters. And -treasure- was always the focus on exp awards.
Fighters got more exp for hd of the stuff they knock out, so they naturally got more xp for fightin. er, sorry. warriors
Wizards got the same thing but also got exp for magical research and item creation. Also they got exp for using any of their spells- provided they are used in the correct circumstance. A lightning bolt cast at a raging beholder awards exp and casting one in a quiet forest into the sky doesn't. But this also goes for using, say, knock to run a locksmith service.
Clerics got exp for acting in their domain's style (healing the sick for life, training soldiers for war, yada yada) and for going on pilgrimages and spreading their beliefs to others.
Thieves got experience for money. Stolen or earned. Straight up. Funny like that.

Think up something clever :o More on the "rogue earns xp for getting a tip" and "cleric gets xp for doing what their faith says they should do" side than the "reward combat with more exp" side.

[Witty Username]

I use XP for Gold, which has some similar concepts.
I would note the goal is to award challenge and creativity primarily. By this view downtime is not between adventures so much, the goal is to have similar problem solving. Have work orders that require skill, social maneuvering, and resources. And award completion of them.