Glory Paladin with Spear and Shield in a 3 char party in Tier 1 and 2

[Wasp]

Hi everyone

One of our players will respec at lvl 2 from Fighter (planned to be an Eldritch Knight) to Paladin due to the fact that we have lost a player before the first session and are now a three character party with the other two characters being a Rogue (AT, with Elven Accuracy) and a Knowledge Cleric 1 / Divination Wizard X.

They plan to go VHuman Glory Paladin with Polearm Master and Dueling, using Spear and Shield to a) simulate a bit that classic antique fighting style, 2) do some grappling if required (giving them some options), and finally because there most interesting moment in the first session was picking up an enemy spear and killing another enemy by throwing it... 😉

How viable do you think this is in this group constellations and play in tier 1 and 2, perhaps up to level 12 compared to other Paladins? Would you go Divine Soul after level 6? Would War Caster make sense for a pure Paladin or only if you go Sorcerer later on? Anything else to take into account?

[RogueJK]

How viable do you think this is in this group constellations and play in tier 1 and 2, perhaps up to level 12 compared to other Paladins? Would you go Divine Soul after level 6? Would War Caster make sense for a pure Paladin or only if you go Sorcerer later on? Anything else to take into account?


It's extremely viable. One of the better Paladin builds, in fact.

PAM in general is great on Paladins since the third attack from PAM results in a third chance to smite (or especially critical + smite)

And you aren't giving up any base damage here compared to a standard 2H polearm thanks to Dueling. It's basically 6 of one/half dozen the other: Do you want a Glaive with Defense fighting style and have Reach, or do you want a Spear+Shield with Dueling fighting style to have +1 AC and +2 damage on the PAM BA attack? Either way you're doing the same base average damage. (1d10 vs. 1d6+2, both of which average 5.5.)


As for Warcaster, it can be handy on a Paladin, especially if your DM is a stickler for the spell components. Otherwise, you have to do the "drop the spear, cast a spell, pick up the spear" juggle. But Paladins don't really need the Concentration boost from Level 6+, thanks to their aura granting them +CHA to Concentration checks. Therefore, it's best for Sorcadins, to utilize with Booming Blade OAs to punish enemies that try to move past them to get at squishier party members.


In general, I believe that just about any Paladin benefits greatly from at least 1 level of Sorcerer (typically Divine Soul, but there are arguments for Shadow or Clockwork Soul too). 1 level dip into Sorcerer grants them some really nice additional defensive spells like Shield and Absorb Elements, and gets them access to long ranged cantrips like Chill Touch/Fire Bolt that shore up one of the traditional Paladin weaknesses: ranged/flying enemies. Plus you don't miss out on any spell slot scaling for additional Smites.

This initial Sorcerer level is generally best taken either after Paladin 2 or after Paladin 6. (The main exception is Conquest Paladins that might consider waiting until after Paladin 9 to get Fear online ASAP.) But from there, it's up to the individual whether they want to invest any more than just 1 level in Sorcerer. Many of the higher level Paladin abilities are nice, like Improved Divine Smite - especially when you have 3x attacks per turn, as well as higher level Paladin spells like Find Greater Steed or Circle of Power. But there are a great many positives for more Sorcerer levels too, especially once you begin factoring in things like access to Quicken Metamagic that will allow you to cast a spell plus still make 2x attacks in one turn, and Divine Soul Sorcerer's access both Cleric and Sorcerer buffs plus Cleric spells like Spirit Guardians. (Paladin 2/Sorcerer X can also be a viable build, it's just not a good option for a PAM-focused Sorcadin specifically.)

So for Sorcadins in general, I lean towards Paladin 6/Sorcerer X usually being the better option than Paladin X/Sorcerer 1, Paladin 9/Sorcerer X, or Paladin 2/Sorcerer X. Just not 100% of the time.


In this particular case with your PAM Glory Paladin starting at Level 2 and going up to Level 12ish, I'd start Paladin 2, then take 1 level of Divine Soul Sorcerer at Level 3, then take Paladin up to either 6 or 9, then switch to taking more levels in Divine Soul Sorcerer until whenever the campaign ends. And I probably wouldn't bother with Warcaster here, instead spending my ASIs on boosting STR and CHA.

[Corran]

Would you go Divine Soul after level 6?
Definitely. And probably sooner than after level 6 too. Most likely at character level 5, after I had gotten gotten warcaster at 4. Then I'd probably rush paladin 9 for revivify and aura of vitality, with the option to get more levels in sorcerer after that point.


Would War Caster make sense for a pure Paladin or only if you go Sorcerer later on?
It makes sense, since paladins can use concentration spells. For some oaths more than others (eg vengeance and conquest). But usually resilient con is better than warcaster because it gives you a point in con and because it boosts the actual save and not just the concentration check, while at the same time you dont need warcaster to lift any casting restrictions and you dont have anything really going for it either (eg BB). Warcaster tends to be better than resilient when you are multiclassing with caster.


Anything else to take into account?
Aid is a good use of a spell slot (usually better than smiting), particularly in a small party where you need to be as proactive as possible. Bless is pretty good too. Dipping one level in sorcerer will put a little more pressure in resources, paticularly in the 1st level slots, so some resource mangement will be needed. Lesser restoration is a good spell to keep prepared too. Wrathful smite is pretty good at keeping an enemy out of a fight with the right positioning and pretty powerful for its level. Thunderous smite has some niche uses so it's good to keep prepared too if possible. Heroism can cancel fear on rogues (it's also a good buff for barbarians though you dont have one), so they need to find room for it too. Protection from good and evil makes them an excellent tank against certain types. Divine favor and shield of faith can compete well with bless depending on the situation though they are not for every fight. And compelled duel is a trap (or at least I have not found a way to make it work decently).

Edit: Command! If your DM rules that the commanded target provokes OA's, that's great with a rogue in the party. But it's a good spell anyway just for denying enemy turns.