PDA

View Full Version : How do I get players to take agency



Shinizak
2022-03-12, 04:41 PM
I have a few new players at my table who are having trouble taking agency, especially in slower parts of the game. How do I get them to take more initiative?

Mastikator
2022-03-12, 04:57 PM
Ask them directly what they do. If that doesn't work ask leading questions.

Edit- it's a lot easier to choose a goal from a list of goals than to make one from nothing, if they have problems finding goals present them with options

kyoryu
2022-03-13, 12:17 AM
Make "do nothing" not viable.

"The orcs will be at the town in three days. What do you do?"

Maan
2022-03-13, 03:50 AM
I have a few new players at my table who are having trouble taking agency, especially in slower parts of the game. How do I get them to take more initiative?

RPGs are weird games. New players can feel overwhelmed when you say them they can "do anything". They need to learn what that actually means.

Using NPCs is a good way. Maybe have an NPC join the party, maybe they hire the party for the next adventure and go with them.
Have the NPC(s) simply ask questions to the PCs. Where did you learn that class feature? Why are you so [peculiar character trait]? How did you become a [character class]?

You just have to teach them there are no "cutscenes" and that they can interact with anything in the world at any moment.
Everything else will follow.

MoiMagnus
2022-03-13, 06:56 AM
I have a few new players at my table who are having trouble taking agency, especially in slower parts of the game. How do I get them to take more initiative?

Understand why.

One frequent reason for lack of agency is the players feeling that it's too risky. You, their previous GM, or something else, might have taught them that having bold ideas usually result in things getting worst. It's not easy to change their mindset so that they feel safe to make decisions when they're not actively forced too.

Another (IME rarer) reason is the lack of incentive. Both positive incentive (having some fun and getting some nice rewards) or negative incentive (doing nothing result in bad consequences).

Maybe they're just the kind of players that are just here to enjoy the ride. In which case you might want to force a brainstorm sessions. "So, for once, you're not pressed by the time, so your character have the time to focus on something of your choice. Do you have any idea? You might want to interact with faction X or faction Y.".
Something that worked in one of our campaign was for the GM to maintain a "TODO list" of things to further investigate (or factions to interact with) with a GM indication of simple/hard and quick/long. Eventually, it became the Players would remind the GM to add things to the list, add latter add things to the list by themselves.
[If you use this list method, don't forget to make it explicit that the list is not exhaustive]

Saintheart
2022-03-13, 09:12 PM
I have a few new players at my table who are having trouble taking agency, especially in slower parts of the game. How do I get them to take more initiative?

The suggestion of a 'to do' list for players is a good start. Probably a lot more practical than anything I'm going to spout off. So start there.

But:

You'd need to provide some context first. What sort of campaign are you running, a on-the-rails module, or an open world game?

Why's that matter? Because thanks to most RPG makers' ineptitude in teaching people how to play and DMs how to referee, these have become two entirely distinct types of game. Players who're used to one type of game have difficulty adjusting to the other. To be fair, it's not entirely WOTC's fault, videogames - even supposedly "open world" ones - also shrink people into this mentality as well.

If it's a module, or your players have a history of playing in modules or very simple timelines, then odds are on they'll feel that there isn't much agency to be taken. There's a storyline and they know they basically have to follow what's put in front of them. They won't feel the need to look outside the box, and odds are on most DMs will unconsciously steer them away from looking outside the box for similar reasons (namely: they only did enough work to be able to run the module, not run an emergent adventure). And thus DMs' imaginative muscles atrophy as well.

An open world game is all agency, which unfortunately is why players used to set storylines or even the controlled "freedom" of a game like Witcher 3 have problems with it. And DMs have problems running them.

So that's one possible issue. But there is another, and it's why I underlined part of your quote.

Namely: "downtime" - which we can define for these purposes as being when the party isn't (a) travelling towards its site-based objective (b) actively fighting or confronting choices in the site-based objective and (c) returning from its site-based objective. "Downtime" is the time in town, resupplying, talking to NPCs, buying better gear, all that stuff.

But there's a reason it's the slower parts of the game: because there isn't a clear single goal for everyone to pursue and, as someone else alluded to, there isn't a clear competing consideration like a time limit or declining availability of goods or resources for the players to balance. The party has nothing to immediately kill, so it doesn't know what to do with itself, because it likely hasn't been in or doesn't want to be in an environment where choice is available.

It has to be remembered that Available Options =/= Meaningful Choice. A hundred flavours of icecream is actually no choice at all because there's no marked difference between them. But a store with only two flavours where you can have two scoops of mundane Strawberry, or one scoop of out-of-this-world vanilla - there you immediately have a meaningful choice, because it throws back to the players to decide what they value. Quantity versus Quality. Strawberry versus Vanilla. It's in those places that roleplaying happens.

Downtime needs direction and paths to follow and interesting interactions just as much as a dungeon does. It may not be the same quality of adventuring. It may not be as intense and it may have big time lapses including "You spend three days waiting for Redbeard the Grumpy to finish off the sword you've commissioned", but it's still the same essential process as DMing actions actively on adventure: set out the situation, invite the players to action, adjudicate the results.

Your players' 'to do' list is a fantastic DM tool for these purposes, because (a) it tells you how they're likely to exercise their agency ... mostly ... and it gives you an opportunity to give them the option of exercising their agency further. Namely, by dropping something in their path when they're on the way to completing their goal. "As you're headed down the street towards Redbeard's forge to complain about how long it's taking him to finish his sword off, you notice a woman crying on a street corner and a man shouting up to the sky. What do you do?" And if they don't act, the man drags the woman off down an alleyway and ... you don't see what happens next, because you're standing there with a gormless grin on your face. You start creating the actual impression that what they do has consequences. You start creating the impression that this is a browser-based game where the entire world is clickable, and something - maybe advantageous to them, maybe not - happens when they do point the arrow at the drama and hit the mouse button.

Thrudd
2022-03-13, 11:51 PM
Ask the players what their characters want to accomplish in life (hopefully this is something that requires doing the sort of things the game is about). They could have some guidance and recommendations from you, based on the particulars of the setting and the system you're using. Do they want riches, power, fame and glory? To hunt down monsters? To overthrow an evil overlord? Once they know what their characters want, whenever there is down time, they should be trying to get those things- asking around about jobs, quests, researching, trying to meet certain people, crafting or collecting equipment that will help them, etc. They can decide at any time to change goals or adopt new ones, but they should always know what they want to do. If they ever decide their characters just want to retire and relax, then the game is over, unless you just run one-off stories with longer time gaps in between stories, where the story happens to them rather than having them be proactive.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-14, 08:51 AM
Why's that matter? Because thanks to most RPG makers' ineptitude in teaching people how to play and DMs how to referee, these have become two entirely distinct types of game.

To be fair, the vast majority of RPGs fail to really state their core assumptions. D&D 5e is better at this than 2e was, but it's still not doing a good job. Now D&D doesn't have any inherent storytelling concepts like 'conflict goes to the bloodiest survivor', but it would still help if the introduction framed it as a Game Of Discovery and how that interacts with the potential structures of the Quest, the Dungeon, and the Sandbox.


Another idea for increasing agency is to move from the now to the near future. The to-do list idea helps with this, giving end goals, but it can also be useful to think about Intent.

Ask them what they want to achieve, not what they want to do. The next places to go are 'what will help you achieve that' and 'how can you get that Thing'. Go from 'I want to blackmail Lord Fancypants' to 'I could get blackmail material from his safe' to 'I melt the safe's lock with acid'.

Segev
2022-03-14, 09:18 AM
A blank canvas can be intimidating, especially if the canvas is not "truly" blank, but the would-be painters just can't see what's on it.

Do they have characters with backstories and interests? Build a few possible plot hooks that poke at those, and lay them out. Make the players choose which one to go with. Even if it's a semi-linear adventure that they start on, just making them pick from one of several options will help get them used to making choices. Then, during the adventure, make sure there's no one way to solve it. Give them a few multiple-choice options for each obstacle they face, and, if they come up with ideas that weren't on your list, celebrate!

If they don't have backstories and interests, just lay out a few hooks for them and see what they bite on. By giving them a list - that "to do" list mentioned earlier - of options, you make them better able to see what they're "allowed" to do.

I think you'll find that, if you have a sufficiently rich world where they have personal stakes and interests, they'll start taking more initiative on their own. But to achieve it, you need them to have experience with the setting and have goals motivated by past events that matter to them and their characters.

Red Fel
2022-03-14, 09:26 AM
I have a few new players at my table who are having trouble taking agency, especially in slower parts of the game. How do I get them to take more initiative?

I'd just like to take a moment and consider the irony of the sentiment here. "My players refuse to act for themselves! How do I force them to?" I just think that's amusing.

That said, the point that has been made - repeatedly - is a good one. The first step to figuring out how to get someone to stop doing a thing is to figure out why they're doing it, and the first step to that is talking to them.

You mention that they're new players. The game is overwhelming to new players. (Which game? Any! TTRPGs are a lot.) Paralysis by analysis is absolutely a thing.

You might consider letting your first adventure with new players be a railroad. Yes, I know, railroads have a bad rep, often for good reason, but it's worth noting that a railroad is a great way to get new players acclimated. By limiting their available options, you keep them from feeling overwhelmed, while simultaneously getting them used to the kinds of scenarios they may encounter in a more open game. Then, in the next game, you ease up on the reins a bit - give them more freedom, now that they know what the options can be, to make more choices.

Don't expect them to fly right out of the gate. Let them stand and walk. One cannot fly into flying.

Vahnavoi
2022-03-14, 09:49 AM
Ever heard the saying "you can lead a horse to the water but you can't make it drink?" It's kinda like that. YOU can't make your players take initiative. YOU can take initiative yourself and do any number of things to make them do something else, but there's a point where if you want THEM to do stuff of their own accord, you have to be willing to sit still and stare at them until they get the hint. Seriously. A passage from a book about internal motivation comes to mind. Long story short: they took a chicken raised in a cage and put it on open yard. It took some hours before it figured it could move from its spot. External prodding may have gotten it to move faster, but it would have defeated the point. So it is with your players.

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-14, 09:58 AM
I'd just like to take a moment and consider the irony of the sentiment here. "My players refuse to act for themselves! How do I force them to?" I just think that's amusing. As did I, you save me a few sentences. :smallsmile:


Paralysis by analysis is absolutely a thing. I still have that problem now and again, and I've been at it for a few years. (But mostly that has to with choosing character options, not decisions during play).


You might consider letting your first adventure with new players be a railroad. Yes, I know, railroads have a bad rep, often for good reason, but it's worth noting that a railroad is a great way to get new players acclimated. By limiting their available options, you keep them from feeling overwhelmed, while simultaneously getting them used to the kinds of scenarios they may encounter in a more open game. Good advice.

Don't expect them to fly right out of the gate. Let them stand and walk. One cannot fly into flying. As a former flight instructor, all I can say is Amen. :smallsmile:

kyoryu
2022-03-14, 11:28 AM
I'd just like to take a moment and consider the irony of the sentiment here. "My players refuse to act for themselves! How do I force them to?" I just think that's amusing.

That said, the point that has been made - repeatedly - is a good one. The first step to figuring out how to get someone to stop doing a thing is to figure out why they're doing it, and the first step to that is talking to them.

You mention that they're new players. The game is overwhelming to new players. (Which game? Any! TTRPGs are a lot.) Paralysis by analysis is absolutely a thing.

You might consider letting your first adventure with new players be a railroad. Yes, I know, railroads have a bad rep, often for good reason, but it's worth noting that a railroad is a great way to get new players acclimated. By limiting their available options, you keep them from feeling overwhelmed, while simultaneously getting them used to the kinds of scenarios they may encounter in a more open game. Then, in the next game, you ease up on the reins a bit - give them more freedom, now that they know what the options can be, to make more choices.

Don't expect them to fly right out of the gate. Let them stand and walk. One cannot fly into flying.

I'd also say that how things are presented can go a long way.

Give them specific situations, with specific threats, and give them a good breakdown of what impact their decisions will likely have. Give them ideas if they struggle, each of which have their own advantages and drawbacks.

As new players, they don't have a lot of context. They don't know the tropes of gaming. They don't know what is possible, and how things are likely to play out. So it's kind of your job to teach them that - set up an obvious decision point (and a reason to engage, per my earlier post), and give them the likely results so they're engaged in the core point of decision-making, not all of the ancillary analysis. And as you do so, guide them through why they think those things would be likely/possible results.

IOW, one of the biggest impediments to people making decisions is not knowing enough to make a decision confidently. And for new players, especially, that's because they don't know how gaming works and a lot of stuff that we've all completely internalized.

(That's a good lesson even with veteran players - hiding information often just makes it harder for people to make decisions. Be as generous with info as you reasonably can).

"What do you want to do?" is going to draw blanks. "You're in a volcano, how do you get out?" will draw blanks. "There are two potions in front of you, which do you drink?" is going to draw blanks. "There's a potion of fire immunity and a potion of flight in front of you" will get blanks.

"You're on a volcano, on a rock outcropping that's about to get consumed by lava. There's a potion of fire immunity and a potion of flight in front of you, you'd expect each to last about an hour. What do you do?" will get a response.

You've created a situation that requires a response, obvious choices (without prohibiting others), and given enough information for people to have at least some confidence in their choices.

RedMage125
2022-03-14, 12:08 PM
Red Fel's advice is, as usual, spot on. I have a story to share, and it's quite pertinent to your problem, OP.

A few years back, I took over as DM for a gaming group, as the previous DM was changing duty stations and moving away. He exclusively ran pre-published modules, so the players were used to a game where they didn't have a whole lot of agency.

The first thing I ran for this group (as something of a treat for the former DM, who still had a few weeks left and got to be a player), was an Evil Campaign. Which is, to say, a villain game. I let them know that villains are proactive, and they need to tell ME what they're doing, and I'll describe how the world reacts.

These people were paralyzed by the absolute freedom of choice. It frequently took them 45-90 minutes to make ANY decisions. When the Evil Game wrapped up, the remaining players approached me and asked for a more "structured storyline" for the next game. I looked at them and said "Did you just ask me for a railroad plot line?". They considered it, and said "we would be fine with that". (Cue the jaw dropping).

So I gave them what they asked for. But as a DM who values player agency, I gradually introduced them to opportunities. I would give them choices between 2 options at first. I also incorporated a published module (Madness At Gardmore Abbey, a 4e module) into my home setting. That module, while fairly straightforward, is not entirely linear. Players have the options for which areas to check first. So they gradually got on board with the idea that they could make meaningful decisions.

The real kicker came with the culmination of a side plot line that had been going on throughout the game. Short version is that an NPC Paladin of Bahamut (Lawful Good), who became a quest giver to them, was gradually gaining popularity and authority in the city that was their base of operations. This NPC eventually became a tyrant (inspired by the CS Lewis quote about tyranny "for our own good"). When they returned and found this, they decided to confront him. I had this NPC started out for combat, and was planning on a reveal that he had being tempted by a Fiend into this behavior.

The players shocked the hell out of me. The party Cleric worshipped Bahamut, as did the Fighter. They liked this guy. They wanted to redeem him and make him see the error of his ways. I was SO pleased that I completely scrapped the fiendish influence plan, and scrapped together a Skill Challenge that they could do during combat (I did have him started up after all). Once he was bloodied AND they had the requisite number of successes, he yielded. He realized his zeal had blinded him, and that he was doing more harm than good. He left to go on a sabbatical.

So the people that asked me for a railroad eventually took for themselves a level of agency that COMPLETELY derailed what I had expected. And I adapted. I made their agency count. I like to think it was because I showed them gradually that they could make choices that meant something.

So that's the overall advice. Start by giving them binary, but meaningful choices. Players who arent used to taking agency dont usually want "open world sandbox" options. But a choice between only 2 things is much easier. Then put them in situations where they can choose their own path in a smaller sandbox. Like perhaps a dungeon with multiple paths that must have all wings cleared to progress to the next level or something. And just carry on with that. It may be possible that these players don't want any agency, and they may not take any more. Or they may eventually like the idea of being able to make meaningful choices and surprise you. Be ready for that. But overall, it's their game, too. And if they want to stick with a railroad with hard rains, give it to them. Railroading is only problematic when Player's choices are overridden. Some people enjoy the ride on the rails just fine.

HalfTangible
2022-03-14, 01:25 PM
I have a few new players at my table who are having trouble taking agency, especially in slower parts of the game. How do I get them to take more initiative?This could mean a number of things. Both in terms of what you'd need to do and what "taking agency" means.

Throw hooks at them. (I like to throw potential love interests at the players who turn out to be part of the plot in some significant way, though obviously how good an idea that is is going to depend on your table and your game). If, for example, they're sitting around a tavern table not talking, have a waitress come by and ask the handsome gentlemen if they'd like anything to drink, or more "personal" things. Look at what your players have for characters/backstory and throw it at them; Matt Colville had a game where dwarves had a reputation as slavers, and when a player went to get his armor repaired, the smith spat on him and said he doesn't deal with slavers.

Something I like to do when setting scenarios up is craft a situation such where only the players can/will do anything to prevent disaster, and to make it something they can't ignore. With my (multiple attempts at) an Exalted campaign, I have:
-started an invasion while the players happen to be nearby
-drain away all heat and flame from a town about to start winter
-accused one of the player characters of murder shortly after they had a public row with the victim

In all 3 cases, the players can't just sit in a tavern and ignore it. They could just run away and leave the plot, but that is still a decision they must make.

As a general rule of thumb, you want to present scenarios to your players that involve making a choice. If nothing's happening, they'll wait for something to happen.

kyoryu
2022-03-14, 01:44 PM
In all 3 cases, the players can't just sit in a tavern and ignore it. They could just run away and leave the plot, but that is still a decision they must make.

This is the key. Right here.

"Oh, you hear rumors of Baron Bloodewhomp raising taxes". That's not a threat, thtere's nothing concrete there. Now, if hte players know of Barn Bloodewhomp and know that he's warlike and has ambitions, that's great, but that's a state further in the game. Sitting in the tavern is viable.

"Baron Bloodewhomp's army is three days away from the town you in. What ya gonna do?" Now you've gotta do something - run, rally the defense, join the Baron, whatever.

False God
2022-03-14, 02:43 PM
I have a few new players at my table who are having trouble taking agency, especially in slower parts of the game. How do I get them to take more initiative?

I mean, are there things to do? People to meet? Books to read? Homes to build?

Yes, it's "downtime" that only means there's no demanding quest right in front of them, but there's usually things to do.

Do they like to read? Study? Make weapons? If you want them to do things, make sure to include things to do.

But, in all fairness, sometimes there isn't anything the party wants to do. If that's the case and today the party just wants to chill, just hit the skip button and move on to the next day. There's no need to play through every moment of downtime. Sometimes downtime goes by quickly, sometimes downtime fill up multiple sessions. If the party doesn't want to do anything in specific until the day they have to, just fast-forward to that time.

Duff
2022-03-14, 09:11 PM
Ask them directly what they do. If that doesn't work ask leading questions.

Edit- it's a lot easier to choose a goal from a list of goals than to make one from nothing, if they have problems finding goals present them with options

Also, make a fair bit of effort to make this easy and rewarding.
Them - "I build a wall"
You - "OK, a stone wall will be best but will take a month, a wooden wall will only be a week. Or do you have something else in mind?"
Then, at least to start with, make their decision be either right, or still helpful. The part built stone wall might make a fun prop and handy high ground for them to defend from. The wooden wall that was done in a week produces the start of a lumber industry making it easier to build better houses.

Saintheart
2022-03-14, 09:34 PM
Other ways to gently tug on their agency strings: don't just ask about their goals, focus on their immediate needs while in "downtime" areas. What do they need to resupply? Are they low on arrows? Then they need to ask around for a fletcher, not just look for Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. Found the fletcher? Sure, but he in turn says "Well, I can sell you these arrows at full price, but if you're willing to do X for me, it's on the house..."

Or: as they get to the fletcher's shop, a big, burly guy is just leaving, chuckling and saying over his shoulder to the fletcher, "Thanks, wimp, we'll be back for next month's payment. And just because we're nice, it'll be five percent more than this time around." And the fletcher can either say something about this to the party or not; ideally the party will ask "What was that all about, noble shopkeeper?" and which then prompts them to decide whether to intervene. Or not intervene. That's a choice, too. And when they come back to the fletcher next time, he'll have more bruises but will still be getting on with life. Consequence for the PCs without necessarily feeling that they have to interact and follow up everything that falls across their path - because the latter is no different than PCs interacting with nothing on the way.

As others are saying, you can't force people to exercise their agency. But you can pique their curiosity, even in mundane shopping trips. And that's the starting point for exercising agency. When they start realising there's a world around them that can be interacted with and which isn't hovering under the quest marker, they'll be more inclined to strike out on their own for it.

Telok
2022-03-15, 12:54 AM
As others are saying, you can't force people to exercise their agency. But you can pique their curiosity, even in mundane shopping trips. And that's the starting point for exercising agency. When they start realising there's a world around them that can be interacted with and which isn't hovering under the quest marker, they'll be more inclined to strike out on their own for it.

One thing that worked wonderfully for me was dropping an good sized pile of loot on the PCs where they couldn't easily spend it (lawless & corrupt & not best shopping place) and very soon after giving them directions to a soon & extremely illegal auction. Everything was an unfinished plot hook. Every group participating, the people running it, everything for sale, even the location was a potential base with patrons & intrigue (or a couple really good places to rob). Through a bit of canny bidding & good rolls they snagged semi-artifact armor and a loot box. Literally, a sealed box from somewhere dangerous with time warping properties & potential for really awesome loot.

Theres an interesting thing... from a certain point of view there's no difference between an unfinished plot hook and asking "I have a fun idea, you guys want to go for it" or "of these sorts of things, what do you guys want to see more of?"

Saintheart
2022-03-15, 01:44 AM
Theres an interesting thing... from a certain point of view there's no difference between an unfinished plot hook and asking "I have a fun idea, you guys want to go for it" or "of these sorts of things, what do you guys want to see more of?"

I agree, there's no difference. The plot hook the players didn't pick up last session is an Uncertainty Lich. If the players want to go back to it and the DM wants to entertain it, it lives. If both of these conditions are unsatisfied, it dies. The world of the adventure doesn't exist outside each passing moment between the players and the DM. And it comes down to the DM at any point whether the plot hook is a story to be explored further, or whether it's a dead end*.

(That's the absolute minimum, of course. Running a good adventure usually requires more effort than that by the DM - whether to stay consistent with what's already happened in the game, or to help them plan for consistent upcoming material.)







* And it is important to have dead ends. Without them, players are then obliged to play 100% completion style, and that's no better than them having no agency at all. One third of all rooms in dungeons should be empty.

Easy e
2022-03-15, 11:01 AM
I know I am a very strange GM, but I pretty much force the players to create the story instead of me. This forces a bit of agency on them. I do this by asking them to fill in the details of a game as it goes. Here is a sample.

Me: So, everyone thanks for playing. Your characters looked good. Let's begin. Tell me why you are all together, and where you are to start with?

Player A: Ah, you were a party girl, and I own a charity, and you were a art dealer...... I guess I am hosting a charity auction and soiree and we are all in attendance.

Me: Fantastic. Is this how you all know each other as well?

Player B: Sure yeah. We have met many times on the social circuit. We know each other on sight at least.

Me: Great. So, tell me about this party?

Player A: Ah, I guess we are doing an auction for some art pieces brought in from a private collection and made public?

Me: Sure, where is it being held?

Player C: My dad's mansion, after he got taken away by the Feds. It is just me and Mom there now, so we offered to host to help fill the space up a bit.

Player A: Yeah, your Mom could be active on my board?

Player C: Yeah, that makes sense.

Me: Great, you have set the scene and how you know each other. While at the party, someone you did not expect to see again shows up. Who is it and how do you know them?

Player A: I don't know, what do you guys think?

Player B: Maybe a government official?

Player C: No, no, let's make it the guy who's collections the paintings are from. We have only talked to him via Zoom before now. He's very mysterious.

Player A: Sure, he's middle-eastern and from a wealthy family, but we are not 100% sure how they made their money!

Me: Excellent, he slides a glass of champagne from a nearby waitress and approaches you. Along with him he is accompanied by a traditionally scarfed companion. Her dark eyes flash out at you. Who do you think his companion is? Why are they here?


Anyway, I think you get the point.

Do not underestimate the power of asking a question, followed by silence and looking expectantly at your players . Eventually, they will start talking and encourage them to continue. Then, simply reel in the parts you want to be true from them and level set. Do this repeatedly.

kyoryu
2022-03-15, 11:08 AM
Be aware that some players really really dislike the "you tell me what's going on" or "you tell me what you find" tactic. And some players love it. So figure out which group you're dealing with.

kyoryu
2022-03-15, 11:10 AM
Theres an interesting thing... from a certain point of view there's no difference between an unfinished plot hook and asking "I have a fun idea, you guys want to go for it" or "of these sorts of things, what do you guys want to see more of?"

There's similarities, for sure. THe difference is in presentation - one is presented as an in-game concept, the other is presented as a meta concept.

There's advantages and disadvantages to both approaches, as well as preferences.

Easy e
2022-03-15, 11:18 AM
Be aware that some players really really dislike the "you tell me what's going on" or "you tell me what you find" tactic. And some players love it. So figure out which group you're dealing with.

Indeed. I find some systems work better with this approach than others as well.

If some folks at the table really hate my GMing, I am always willing to cede the GM seat to others and be a player as well.

Segev
2022-03-15, 03:24 PM
"Tell me why you're together" and the like does require that you give them enough setting lore to make sensible statements.

"I'm with the others because the Harpers sent me to investigate the mysterious dungeon beneath the city," makes a lot of sense if the game is set in Waterdeep. It makes significantly less sense if the game is set in Barovia.

And if your setting is ill-defined, you COULD be requiring the players to build it for you with these snippets, but that's a very different game expectation than most D&D games have. (On the other hand, Wisher Theurge Fatalist and Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine both thrive on this kind of thing.)

But for D&D and most other "traditional" type RPGs, players will feel like they're playing blindfolded mother-may-I if they are told to tell the DM why they're doing whatever they're doing and they don't have sufficient setting information to have inspired their ideas of their PCs' motives and what is likely to drive them.

You need, as DM, to make sure that they have the info to act as agents. The more freedom you want them to exert, the more information they need to have about what is possible to do.

Red Fel
2022-03-16, 08:22 AM
You need, as DM, to make sure that they have the info to act as agents. The more freedom you want them to exert, the more information they need to have about what is possible to do.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but this is one of the other benefits of Session Zero.

A lot of people see Session Zero as an opportunity to hash out character concepts and fill people in on setting, and that's true. But it's also an opportunity, through carefully-placed questions, to get to know your players - their comfort with the setting, their comfort with decision-making, their level of system mastery and confidence.

If you ask the players in the middle of a normal session, essentially, "Why are the PCs together?" They may or may not have an answer. But if you ask during Session Zero, you're not stopping the session to ask that question - asking the question is the point of the session. It lets you see which players are ready to take agency, and which players may still need some hand-holding. If you ask, "Tell me about your barbarian," and the response is, "He's, uh, strong and hits things," take that as an opportunity to help showcase how combat may not be the only element of the game. If you ask, "Tell me about your engineer," and the response is, "She, uh, has six points in engine repair?" Take that as an opportunity to discuss character concepts and how they can help shape the game and the decisions you make.

To Segev's point, it's about making sure they have the information to act on their own. And one of the best ways to do that is to gently figure out what information they don't have, ideally before the game even starts.

Easy e
2022-03-16, 10:56 AM
For very practical advise on the subject, simply call out a person's character name and say "What are thinking (or doing)?" Then you just sit and stare at them until they respond. Let the uncomfortable silence lay there if needed.

Chances are they were just letting the scene play out, didn't know a decision/agency was needed, or are unsure when it is their turn to "do something". Don't make them guess. Tell them that "now is the time" by bluntly signposting it.

kyoryu
2022-03-16, 12:02 PM
For very practical advise on the subject, simply call out a person's character name and say "What are thinking (or doing)?" Then you just sit and stare at them until they respond. Let the uncomfortable silence lay there if needed.

Chances are they were just letting the scene play out, didn't know a decision/agency was needed, or are unsure when it is their turn to "do something". Don't make them guess. Tell them that "now is the time" by bluntly signposting it.

This is good advice. Clarifying the situation they're in and why there is a decision point is an extremely useful thing to do as well as part of this.

"Bill, the wizard is about to insert the thingamajiggy into the macguffin. But, the berserker is also bearing down on your friends. What do you want to do?"

HalfTangible
2022-03-16, 12:03 PM
If you want to signal it's time for your players to do stuff and you're done setting the scene, you can also ask "what would you like to do?"