Fast healing items

[Biggus]

In another thread someone mentioned giving their players a custom ring of fast healing 1. I thought that would be a nice item to have, so I decided to work out the cost, and according to the DMG guidelines it's only 8,000GP if based on the Lesser Vigor spell (caster level 1 x spell level 1 x 2000 x 4 for a rounds per level spell).

Then it occurred to me that there are existing items which have similar effects, so I looked them up. There's an Ioun Stone which regenerates 1HP per hour for 20,000GP, which says it works like a Ring of Regeneration. The Ring costs 90,000GP and allows you to regenerate 1HP per HD per hour.

The latter two items do have the added bonus that they will cause lost body parts to regrow, but considering that there isn't a standard mechanic for losing body parts in combat in 3.5, that's unlikely to be a common occurrence in most campaigns.

While the custom fast healing item seems a bit on the cheap side, it's clear that the regeneration items are ludicrously overpriced, like a lot of items in the DMG.

What do you think would be fair prices for these items? What would you pay for them as a player?

[Troacctid]

The cheapest always-on fast healing item in the game is the millennial chainmail from MIC, which will set you back 8,150 gp plus either a feat slot or a 4th-level divine spell slot. Millennials are killing healing potions.

[Blackhawk748]

What do you think would be fair prices for these items? What would you pay for them as a player?

I've never found the continuous Lesser Vigor items to be unreasonable, largely because its useless in combat and only good for keeping you topped up between fights. 8k doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there a [Su] version of regeneration or fast healing anywhere? Because the A&EG has the phylactery of change, which grants polymorph at will, although you only get 1 specific form per day. Combine with Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer. A similar effect applies to the psychoactive skin of proteus, from the XPH, only much, much better.

[Troacctid]

I've never found the continuous Lesser Vigor items to be unreasonable, largely because its useless in combat and only good for keeping you topped up between fights. 8k doesn't seem ridiculous to me.
Given the ludicrous degree to which it outperforms even the most efficient healing items in the game, I feel comfortable saying that 8,000 gp is not the correct price point. And indeed, it violates the DMG's custom item guidelines. A more accurate price point would probably be in the 20–30k range.

[Biggus]

I've never found the continuous Lesser Vigor items to be unreasonable, largely because its useless in combat and only good for keeping you topped up between fights. 8k doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

I didn't say the Lesser Vigor item was ridiculous, I just said it was on the cheap side. It was the other two I thought were ridiculously priced.


Given the ludicrous degree to which it outperforms even the most efficient healing items in the game, I feel comfortable saying that 8,000 gp is not the correct price point. And indeed, it violates the DMG's custom item guidelines. A more accurate price point would probably be in the 20–30k range.

What custom item guidelines does it violate? Do you just mean the bit about "compare a new item to existing items to estimate the price" or something more specific?

[Troacctid]

What custom item guidelines does it violate? Do you just mean the bit about "compare a new item to existing items to estimate the price" or something more specific?
Yes, that's the first step of the process. You don't get to all that base price x multiplier stuff unless nothing comparable exists already.

[Blackhawk748]

Given the ludicrous degree to which it outperforms even the most efficient healing items in the game, I feel comfortable saying that 8,000 gp is not the correct price point. And indeed, it violates the DMG's custom item guidelines. A more accurate price point would probably be in the 20–30k range.

It really doesn't outside of violating the "comparing it to existing items" but frankly, the current items are so horrifically overpriced, and terrible, I don't think that's an issue.

Besides, a Wand of Lesser vigor costs 750gp for a fully charged one, for the 8k cost of a Ring of Lesser Vigor, you can buy 10 wands with a bit left over. That 500 charges total, or 5500 rounds of healing. Frankly, that's probably more healing than the vast majority of people will ever need.

And on another note, healing, by and large, in DnD is awful until you get to Heal or are doing other shenanigans to get a hell of a lot of oomph out of it. There's a reason that Lesser Vigor is preferred as the first level healing spell over Cure Light.

[Troacctid]

It really doesn't outside of violating the "comparing it to existing items" but frankly, the current items are so horrifically overpriced, and terrible, I don't think that's an issue.
So, it doesn't violate them, except in the way that it does.


Besides, a Wand of Lesser vigor costs 750gp for a fully charged one, for the 8k cost of a Ring of Lesser Vigor, you can buy 10 wands with a bit left over. That 500 charges total, or 5500 rounds of healing. Frankly, that's probably more healing than the vast majority of people will ever need.
The ring gives 14,400 rounds of healing per day. "But you won't take that much damage in a day!" Are you sure? HP is a resource. When players have an unlimited amount of a resource, do you think they'll stop and say "I guess we don't need the rest of this, so let's just ignore it," or do you think they'll try to find a way to use the excess to their advantage? Personally, I'd be in the second camp. If I've learned anything from superhero media, it's that the character who regenerates is always going to be suffering what would otherwise be life-threatening injuries at least once or twice an episode, just because they have carte blanche to survive it.

Plus, the wands require standard action activation, can't be used except by certain classes, and can't revive you from negatives.


And on another note, healing, by and large, in DnD is awful until you get to Heal or are doing other shenanigans to get a hell of a lot of oomph out of it.
No it isn't.

[Blackhawk748]

The ring gives 14,400 rounds of healing per day. "But you won't take that much damage in a day!" Are you sure? HP is a resource. When players have an unlimited amount of a resource, do you think they'll stop and say "I guess we don't need the rest of this, so let's just ignore it," or do you think they'll try to find a way to use the excess to their advantage? Personally, I'd be in the second camp. If I've learned anything from superhero media, it's that the character who regenerates is always going to be suffering what would otherwise be life-threatening injuries at least once or twice an episode, just because they have carte blanche to survive it.

Plus, the wands require standard action activation, can't be used except by certain classes, and can't revive you from negatives.

Fast Healing 1, which is obtainable in other ways with extra benefits for slightly more money, isn't that big of a deal and while you could be in some ridiculous situation where you take enough damage where Fast Healing 1 all day is necessary, that is a hell of an outlier.

And yes, HP is a resource, as is the item slot that this item must go on as is the gold you've spent to acquire it. On top of this, you;re ignoring the time it takes to heal with Fast Healing 1. You want that 60 HP back? Enjoy 6 minutes of sitting around while your buffs and other effects wear off as you get HP back. Or you can keep going, get like 5-10 HP back and get into another fight. This is also ignoring the fact that most characters have daily limits beyond HP.

In my experience, outside of low levels, you stop because the mage is out of slots not because the Barbarian is low on HP, even when this isn't being used.

The action cost to activating it out of combat doesn't matter because its out of combat. Also where are you getting that it can't heal negatives? It says you get Fast Healing 1 and it automatically stabilizes the target and Fast Healing, to m knowledge, has no phrasing stating it doesn't heal you from negatives.



No it isn't.

Yes it is, in combat healing in DnD is awful and people are rightly warned away from it unless you're doing Chain Spell or KoK Mercy Cleric shenanigans to make it more viable. Heal is pretty much the only one that's gonna give you enough HP back to make the action spent worth it and out of combat you just use.

Out of combat Lesser Vigor is incredibly charge efficient which is why its preferred over Cure Light Wands though Cure Light is more time efficient.

[Troacctid]

Fast Healing 1, which is obtainable in other ways with extra benefits for slightly more money, isn't that big of a deal and while you could be in some ridiculous situation where you take enough damage where Fast Healing 1 all day is necessary, that is a hell of an outlier.
Which other ways?


And yes, HP is a resource, as is the item slot that this item must go on as is the gold you've spent to acquire it. On top of this, you;re ignoring the time it takes to heal with Fast Healing 1. You want that 60 HP back? Enjoy 6 minutes of sitting around while your buffs and other effects wear off as you get HP back. Or you can keep going, get like 5-10 HP back and get into another fight. This is also ignoring the fact that most characters have daily limits beyond HP.

In my experience, outside of low levels, you stop because the mage is out of slots not because the Barbarian is low on HP, even when this isn't being used.
In my experience, I always run out of dungeon before I run out of spells. That doesn't mean I should be able to get unlimited spell slots for the cost of five pearls of power.


The action cost to activating it out of combat doesn't matter because its out of combat. Also where are you getting that it can't heal negatives? It says you get Fast Healing 1 and it automatically stabilizes the target and Fast Healing, to m knowledge, has no phrasing stating it doesn't heal you from negatives.
How are you activating it when you have negative HP?


Yes it is, in combat healing in DnD is awful and people are rightly warned away from it unless you're doing Chain Spell or KoK Mercy Cleric shenanigans to make it more viable.
No it isn't.

[Darg]

And yes, HP is a resource, as is the item slot that this item must go on as is the gold you've spent to acquire it. On top of this, you;re ignoring the time it takes to heal with Fast Healing 1. You want that 60 HP back? Enjoy 6 minutes of sitting around while your buffs and other effects wear off as you get HP back. Or you can keep going, get like 5-10 HP back and get into another fight. This is also ignoring the fact that most characters have daily limits beyond HP.

Not everyone goes at a pace where 5-10 rounds is anywhere close to the amount of time it takes to get to the next encounter. If the average time between encounters is 1 hour, then fast healing is very efficient.


In my experience, outside of low levels, you stop because the mage is out of slots not because the Barbarian is low on HP, even when this isn't being used.

In my experience, we aren't allowed to stop just because the wizard is out of spells. It has to be appropriate for the group to stop or there are consequences.


Yes it is, in combat healing in DnD is awful and people are rightly warned away from it unless you're doing Chain Spell or KoK Mercy Cleric shenanigans to make it more viable. Heal is pretty much the only one that's gonna give you enough HP back to make the action spent worth it and out of combat you just use.

Depends on the situation and the comparison. CLW heals longsword damage +1-5. CMW heals for 2 longswords +3-10. So on and so forth. Healing isn't meant to be this thing that tops you up after every battle or necessarily heals you to full with one action. It's supposed to help mitigate some bad luck and prolong your daily resources, aka HP. Having played without a healer and without access to healing items, not having healing really limits what you can actually do in a reasonable time frame. There are also plenty of reasons to heal in combat too. As mentioned before, it can be used to mitigate some danger of the RNG system. If the fighter is low on health, healing them can prevent them from dying from being hit when luck isn't on their side or prevent that nasty crit from knocking them out or killing them outright. It's also useful to getting someone back on their feat when they have negative HP. Being able to take even one more hit can mean that the enemy can receive even more hits. It was never designed to be more than a niche tactic in combat.


Out of combat Lesser Vigor is incredibly charge efficient which is why its preferred over Cure Light Wands though Cure Light is more time efficient.

It's brokenly charge efficient. The fact that you want it over CLW just proves it's power: average 275 vs guaranteed 550. Then when you compare it to all day fast healing 1. 550 health per wand vs up to 14,400 healing per day and 8k sounds extremely cheap and is practically really cheap. That said, everyone's game is played differently. If you play at a table where you planar bind/summon a small army and complete 4 combats in 20 rounds, then wands of lesser vigor are going to be expensive twigs.

[pabelfly]

Fast healing is not my go-to healing method in combat, and that's where I'm most worried about healing. 1HP per round won't help much if one hit is going to take a character out, and most of my combats are on the shorter side anyway. That said, my last session had one character down to 1HP after getting Fast Healing 1 from me for the prior two rounds, so it can happen on the rare occasion.

Outside of combat it can be good if you usually have plenty of time between combats, but Cure Light Wounds isn't that much worse compared to Lesser Vigor potions that I'd take the risk of not getting ambushed right after the previous combat.

[Biggus]

Getting back to my original question...

What prices would you pay for the items I mentioned?

The only person who's ventured an opinion is Troacctid, who said 20-30K for the custom fast healing ring. I was thinking maybe about 15-20K, so in the same ballpark.

The Ring of Regeneration...I'm not sure exactly what I'd pay for it, but it's a LOT less than 90K. Not only does it not help with in-combat healing, it doesn't help with between-combats healing either unless there's a long break between them. Its main use is overnight healing, which does save you some money on wands but isn't really that useful in most campaigns. I wouldn't pay much over 10K for one personally.

The Ioun Stone I wouldn't buy at all. If I found one at low levels I might keep it for a while, but that's about it. Seriously, 1HP per hour, what use is that to anyone who's above about 3rd level?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The cost that an item should be (according to anything resembling logical gaming analysis, not RAW) is what someone should be willing to pay for it, not based on currently-existing items (which almost anyone can tell you tend to be VASTLY more expensive than is reasonable, at least in Core). So how many hp's worth of healing do you need in a day, and how much of that isn't already covered with prior resources? Further, how much of that can't be easily gotten really inexpensively?

Given that it's quite cheap to purchase the out-of-combat services of a character with the Draconic Aura: Vigor feat or other forms of at will, low-level healing, it's not going to be nearly 20k gp, let alone 90k for 1 hp/hour.

[Troacctid]

The cost that an item should be (according to anything resembling logical gaming analysis, not RAW) is what someone should be willing to pay for it, not based on currently-existing items (which almost anyone can tell you tend to be VASTLY more expensive than is reasonable, at least in Core). So how many hp's worth of healing do you need in a day, and how much of that isn't already covered with prior resources? Further, how much of that can't be easily gotten really inexpensively?

Given that it's quite cheap to purchase the out-of-combat services of a character with the Draconic Aura: Vigor feat or other forms of at will, low-level healing, it's not going to be nearly 20k gp, let alone 90k for 1 hp/hour.
I agree that a version of the item that only healed you up to half HP rather than full should cost less. 6–10k would be reasonable with that restriction.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I agree that a version of the item that only healed you up to half HP rather than full should cost less. 6–10k would be reasonable with that restriction.And how about hiring a spellcasting minion with access to cheap low-level spells? Or a low level dread necromancer in a party where negative energy heals everyone? Or an extra level 1 crusader so the two initiators can have a slap-fight to heal themselves and everyone else? Etc. This hardly even scratches the surface of what's doable, healing-wise, even at low levels.

[Troacctid]

And how about hiring a spellcasting minion with access to cheap low-level spells? Or a low level dread necromancer in a party where negative energy heals everyone? Or an extra level 1 crusader so the two initiators can have a slap-fight to heal themselves and everyone else? Etc. This hardly even scratches the surface of what's doable, healing-wise, even at low levels.
The spellcaster is going to have limited slots. The dread necromancer requires a feat from every single person in the party. The level 1 crusader isn't hitting anything. All of them are going to die the first time you get fireballed.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The spellcaster is going to have limited slots.More limited or less limited than 1 hp/hour for 90k?


The dread necromancer requires a feat from every single person in the party.Or undead, but I did mention the restriction.


The level 1 crusader isn't hitting anything.Just how high is the other crusader's touch AC?


All of them are going to die the first time you get fireballed.That's why they hang nearby but out of the line of fire and don't get into actual fights.

[AvatarVecna]

Healing magic isn't bad. It's just "worse than other things you could be doing with your casting". It's like how people call Mystic Theurge garbage because it "only" gets double 8ths by 20th level if you're doing a normal build - it's only "garbage" from a T1 point of view. A cleric who purposefully focuses healing, and prepares nothing but healing spells, is missing out on a great deal of the utility of being a caster, but their party is just flat-out not going to die.

If I were assigning a price I think is fair for the effect, I'd probably go with 91000 gp. The idea here is that rather than using the incredibly slow existing items, or the incredibly cheap "continuous lesser vigor", I'm modeling it off "continuous Persistent Lesser Vigor". That's 7 x 13 x 2000 x 0.5=91000 gp for a single person to have unlimited out-of-combat healing but very limited in-combat-healing (the latter of which can only really benefit one person). That feels relatively fair to me. That's 121 wands of cure light, or 110 eternal wands of cure light. This is about the same price as the ring of regeneration, and while it's a great deal faster (at least, in any game that isn't lvl 600), it can't heal nonlethal damage, or regenerate removed body parts, so it's...probably fine?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A greater metamagic rod is worth 73k, though.

And an acorn of far travel (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?546179-Un-Hallow-that-Stacks) is free, although it takes some prep-work, and (un)hallow/lesser vigor costs 2k.

[Biggus]

Given that it's quite cheap to purchase the out-of-combat services of a character with the Draconic Aura: Vigor feat or other forms of at will, low-level healing,

What book is that feat in? I thought it was in Dragon Magic but I can't find it there.


More limited or less limited than 1 hp/hour for 90k?


The ring is 1HP per HD per hour, it's the ioun stone which is 1HP per hour. Still utter crap for 90K though.

[Max Caysey]

I've never found the continuous Lesser Vigor items to be unreasonable, largely because its useless in combat and only good for keeping you topped up between fights. 8k doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

Why would it be useless in combat?

[AvatarVecna]

Why would it be useless in combat?

It's not technically useless in a fight, but it's very...use-impaired. If we lived in a fantasy world where the average combat takes 10 rounds, Fast Healing 1 is, at maximum, equivalent to if you started the encounter with 10 Temp HP. The problem is, it doesn't scale with level. 10 Temp HP is broken at lvl 1, useful at lvl 5, worth mentioning at lvl 10, and borderline useless at lvl 20. And actually it's worse than temp HP because you get those in one batch, whereas the fast healing is spread out.

99% of fights will play out exactly the same if your fast healing is out-of-combat only. There are three levels of fast healing that matter: 0, 1, and "enough to be worthwhile mid-combat healing".

[Max Caysey]

It's not technically useless in a fight, but it's very...use-impaired. If we lived in a fantasy world where the average combat takes 10 rounds, Fast Healing 1 is, at maximum, equivalent to if you started the encounter with 10 Temp HP. The problem is, it doesn't scale with level. 10 Temp HP is broken at lvl 1, useful at lvl 5, worth mentioning at lvl 10, and borderline useless at lvl 20. And actually it's worse than temp HP because you get those in one batch, whereas the fast healing is spread out.

99% of fights will play out exactly the same if your fast healing is out-of-combat only. There are three levels of fast healing that matter: 0, 1, and "enough to be worthwhile mid-combat healing".

If you cast healthful rest, it doubles… But I see your point. Its probably better to just to cast it, especially if you have augmentet healing, because that adds +2 hp healed/level. That way, casting Greater Vigor could net you 18 hp per round! Which is pretty good!

[AvatarVecna]

If you cast healthful rest, it doubles… But I see your point. Its probably better to just to cast it, especially if you have augmentet healing, because that adds +2 hp healed/level. That way, casting Greater Vigor could net you 18 hp per round! Which is pretty good!

The way I read it, Healthful Rest only applies to Fast Healing you have yourself, not fast healing gained from a spell or item.

[Telonius]

Thanks to the infamous "use-activated True Strike" thing, continuous or at-will anything tends to set off cheese detectors. I remember the shock and consternation when Warlocks first became a thing. ("You mean he can just Eldritch Blast away all day?!") And it's not like having a Dread Necromancer in an undead party hasn't been a thing for years.

That said, messing around with HP is messing around with some of the basic assumptions of how many encounters a party is going to be able to handle in a day. It will affect what spells you use during combat, and what you choose to spend your GP on. If you want it in your game, fine; but don't make it a custom magic item, houserule its existence for everybody. If it's possible to get, it's something that's obvious enough that everyone would want to have an item that granted it. So just houserule to top off everybody's HP after an encounter.

[Jack_Simth]

Is there a [Su] version of regeneration or fast healing anywhere? Because the A&EG has the phylactery of change, which grants polymorph at will, although you only get 1 specific form per day. Combine with Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer. A similar effect applies to the psychoactive skin of proteus, from the XPH, only much, much better.
Other than requiring activation, it doesn't much matter, as 3.5 Polymorph grants HP as though you rested for a night.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well‚ Philactery of change is‚ with the continuous True Strike item‚ kind of the poster boy of why every spell shouldn't be made into continuous items. It just gives too much utility for one single item‚ and allows characters to instantly be MAD.

A continuous item of Fast Healing 1 may as well be "every party member starts every fight with full HP without needing to use cleric spell slots or constantly burn money in healing". That's really strong for the whole time where HP is relevant in a fight‚ which is up to level 7-10 in optimized games and up to 15 in more low-tier parties‚ and generally breaks most of the "four draining encounters" rule. I don't think it should be easily available before lv10‚ so I'd agree with 30-35k gp at least. "Persistent Lesser Vigor 1/day" is 32 760 gp‚ so that would seem a fair price. You can pass the item around to heal everybody‚ but you're obviously not using the full 14 400 rounds‚ so I'd say that balances it out.

[Max Caysey]

The way I read it, Healthful Rest only applies to Fast Healing you have yourself, not fast healing gained from a spell or item.

All fast healing is natural healing, therefore they stack or interact in such a way as to benefit from each other.

[Biggus]

Thanks to the infamous "use-activated True Strike" thing, continuous or at-will anything tends to set off cheese detectors.

I did think that myself. But...


That said, messing around with HP is messing around with some of the basic assumptions of how many encounters a party is going to be able to handle in a day. It will affect what spells you use during combat, and what you choose to spend your GP on. If you want it in your game, fine; but don't make it a custom magic item, houserule its existence for everybody. If it's possible to get, it's something that's obvious enough that everyone would want to have an item that granted it. So just houserule to top off everybody's HP after an encounter.

...as Blackhawk748 mentioned, for 7,500GP you can get 10 wands of Lesser Vigor which heal a total of 5,500HPs. In a party which has someone who can use those (ie, most parties) having continuous fast healing 1 isn't a huge improvement on that. It auto-stabilises you if you're on negative HPs and if the campaign goes to high levels it will probably save you some money in the long run, but apart from that I don't see how it would change the game much.


All fast healing is natural healing, therefore they stack or interact in such a way as to benefit from each other.

No, fast healing and natural healing are two different things:



Except where noted here, fast healing is like natural healing

[sleepyphoenixx]

Getting back to my original question...

What prices would you pay for the items I mentioned?

The only person who's ventured an opinion is Troacctid, who said 20-30K for the custom fast healing ring. I was thinking maybe about 15-20K, so in the same ballpark.

The Ring of Regeneration...I'm not sure exactly what I'd pay for it, but it's a LOT less than 90K. Not only does it not help with in-combat healing, it doesn't help with between-combats healing either unless there's a long break between them. Its main use is overnight healing, which does save you some money on wands but isn't really that useful in most campaigns. I wouldn't pay much over 10K for one personally.

The Ioun Stone I wouldn't buy at all. If I found one at low levels I might keep it for a while, but that's about it. Seriously, 1HP per hour, what use is that to anyone who's above about 3rd level?

I think the 8k is fine. I'd make it command word activated (at CL 1) instead of continuous so you have to spend actions on it and call it a day.
In the end what you're competing with is wands of Lesser Vigor and Healing Belts so even that much is already a pretty hefty surcharge for a party without a divine caster or UMD user.

The theoretical maximum of healing every round of every day falls apart in practice because you're never fighting all day - even the basic wand of LV generally lasts a party quite a while.
Paying 10x upfront so you don't have to restock is in line with other consumables vs unlimited use items and 8k is a pretty big investment at low levels even if the entire party chips in.

If you absolutely have to have it continuous 20-30k seems in the right ballpark to me.

[Biggus]

just houserule to top off everybody's HP after an encounter.



A continuous item of Fast Healing 1 may as well be "every party member starts every fight with full HP without needing to use cleric spell slots or constantly burn money in healing".

I think you may be overstating the value of Fast Healing 1 a bit. Don't your DMs ever give you two or more encounters in quick succession? By mid-levels, you need several minutes to heal from a typical encounter at 1HP per round, and that's assuming you all have FH1, instead of sharing an item.


"Persistent Lesser Vigor 1/day" is 32 760 gp‚ so that would seem a fair price.

Good point, that does seem to be most sensible way of doing it within the standard pricing guidelines.

[Max Caysey]

No, fast healing and natural healing are two different things:

Erhm... your qoute says that fast healing is natural healing unless otherwise mentioned. There is nothing mentioned in vigor that states that its not natural healing!

[Troacctid]

I think you may be overstating the value of Fast Healing 1 a bit. Don't your DMs ever give you two or more encounters in quick succession?
Where I come from, we actually have a word for two or more encounters in quick succession: we call it "one encounter." :smallwink:

[Jack_Simth]

Where I come from, we actually have a word for two or more encounters in quick succession: we call it "one encounter." :smallwink:

The Orc watchman screams as he dies on your sword. Five rounds later, half the contingent explodes out of the hallway you would have gone down next.

Is this one encounter or two?

[schreier]

Silithar healing blood grants fast healing 2 for 182,000gp .... Very expensive but slotless and effectively unremovable

[Troacctid]

The Orc watchman screams as he dies on your sword. Five rounds later, half the contingent explodes out of the hallway you would have gone down next.

Is this one encounter or two?
That's one encounter.

[Jack_Simth]

That's one encounter.

Why? Where exactly do you draw the line? Five rounds? Ten rounds? Fifty? Changing rooms in the dungeon? Changing dungeons?

Ten orcs, one at a time with 5 rounds between is a different kettle of fish from ten orcs at once. Before area spells like Fireball come online, the first set is much easier to deal with than the second.

[Troacctid]

Why? Where exactly do you draw the line? Five rounds? Ten rounds? Fifty? Changing rooms in the dungeon? Changing dungeons?

Ten orcs, one at a time with 5 rounds between is a different kettle of fish from ten orcs at once. Before area spells like Fireball come online, the first set is much easier to deal with than the second.
It's just a two-part encounter. You never have enemies come at your players in waves?

[Jervis]

The ring gives 14,400 rounds of healing per day. "But you won't take that much damage in a day!" Are you sure? HP is a resource. When players have an unlimited amount of a resource, do you think they'll stop and say "I guess we don't need the rest of this, so let's just ignore it," or do you think they'll try to find a way to use the excess to their advantage? Personally, I'd be in the second camp. If I've learned anything from superhero media, it's that the character who regenerates is always going to be suffering what would otherwise be life-threatening injuries at least once or twice an episode, just because they have carte blanche to survive it.


Tangentially related but this is why I love the trollblooded feat as a player, I love being a Kenny type character that gets viciously mauled on a daily basis only to put myself back together afterwords. I allow it as a DM but with the caveat that, in universe, the god of trolls doesn’t like half breeds and this manipulates probability to make acid and fire damage more common, and any limb you loose grows into a evil doppelgänger of you and tries to kill you.

[Jack_Simth]

It's just a two-part encounter. You never have enemies come at your players in waves?

Occasionally. But that's not the point of the question. Where do you draw the line, and why?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Occasionally. But that's not the point of the question. Where do you draw the line, and why?

Obviously no clear cut line. "Two different encounters" doesn't have a clear-cut meaning in a game like d&d. The most RAW answer would be "10 minutes without fighting"‚ which is the time for characters with Martial Study to recover their maneuvers‚ but in general it's "two fightings with some time for the party to recover and for short time buffs (whatever definition you give to it) to expire"

[Blackhawk748]

Well‚ Philactery of change is‚ with the continuous True Strike item‚ kind of the poster boy of why every spell shouldn't be made into continuous items. It just gives too much utility for one single item‚ and allows characters to instantly be MAD.

A continuous item of Fast Healing 1 may as well be "every party member starts every fight with full HP without needing to use cleric spell slots or constantly burn money in healing". That's really strong for the whole time where HP is relevant in a fight‚ which is up to level 7-10 in optimized games and up to 15 in more low-tier parties‚ and generally breaks most of the "four draining encounters" rule. I don't think it should be easily available before lv10‚ so I'd agree with 30-35k gp at least. "Persistent Lesser Vigor 1/day" is 32 760 gp‚ so that would seem a fair price. You can pass the item around to heal everybody‚ but you're obviously not using the full 14 400 rounds‚ so I'd say that balances it out.

Considering I've used this item on several martial characters, its not. Typically we clear the room, toss said room and then move onto the next room. 2 minutes tops. SO that's 20 HP.

A martial character can easily lose that much in a single encounter and so you still get chipped down, its just slower.

[El Dorado]

Occasionally. But that's not the point of the question. Where do you draw the line, and why?

If the PCs are still in initiative, that's one encounter. I mean, your example mentioned "five rounds later", which implies the encounter (if not actual combat) is still occurring.

[Biggus]

Erhm... your qoute says that fast healing is natural healing unless otherwise mentioned. There is nothing mentioned in vigor that states that its not natural healing!

No, it says it's like natural healing, not that it is natural healing. If you're still not convinced, look at page 146 of the PHB. Natural Healing has a specific defintion and is distinguished from Magical Healing.


Where I come from, we actually have a word for two or more encounters in quick succession: we call it "one encounter." :smallwink:

While I appreciate you're not being entirely serious here, I'd have to say that in my opinion if there are only a few rounds between fights it's fair to call it one encounter, but if there are several minutes between them it's clearly two.

[RSGA]

So, while looking up other things for Soulbow related stuff, I did find one potential advantage the Pearly White Ioun Stone and Ring of Regeneration have over the Vigor line, whether in wand, spell, or item form, and that doesn't seem to have come up. The Ring and the Stone aren't limited in what kind of HP damage they can heal. Vigor doesn't deal in starvation, thirst, or suffocation seemingly in any form or degree. Starvation doesn't normally come up in the short term where this stuff is normally operating, but there's enough dehydration in Sandstorm to worry about occasionally, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's some surprisingly available feat or ability to start suffocating a person pretty quickly.

Not sure this helps much with the discussion, though.

[Jack_Simth]

Obviously no clear cut line. "Two different encounters" doesn't have a clear-cut meaning in a game like d&d. The most RAW answer would be "10 minutes without fighting"‚ which is the time for characters with Martial Study to recover their maneuvers‚ but in general it's "two fightings with some time for the party to recover and for short time buffs (whatever definition you give to it) to expire"
Yes. Exactly. And Troacctid was using that arbitrariness and her own definition to negate Biggus' point about how little fast healing 1 actually gets you. With a shared item of fast healing 1, you'll need ten minutes to fix up 100 points of damage on the party - which might be 50 on the meatshield and 25 each on the healbot and blaster (meatshield took the melee, healbot and blaster soaked a fireball - skill-monkey used Evasion). If the dungeon is static for some reason and you can take everything at your own pace, that's not a big deal. But if the place is meaningfully reactive, spending ten minutes doing diddly squat is probably a bad idea.

If the PCs are still in initiative, that's one encounter. I mean, your example mentioned "five rounds later", which implies the encounter (if not actual combat) is still occurring.
Rounds is just a standard measure of time in the game. I could have equivalently said "thirty seconds" or "half a minute".

[Vaern]

What book is that feat in? I thought it was in Dragon Magic but I can't find it there.

It's a dragon shaman option in PHB2. There is also a Draconic Aura feat in Dragon Magic that allows you to choose from a set of options listed later on in the book but, contrary to popular belief, it does not include Vigor.

The section containing the list of draconic aura abilities says that "A dragon shaman can learn any of the auras presented here in place of the ones in Player's Handbook II."
It does not say, "A character with the Dragon Aura feat can learn any of the dragon shaman's auras in Player's Handbook II in place of the ones presented here." There is nothing in the feat description or Dragon Magic's description of auras that indicates that the feat allows you to take options from the dragon shaman class feature.

[bekeleven]

If I were making an item like this I would definitely consider using attunement. The example of the 1/Day persistent spells, for instance, would be an attunement item.

[Crichton]

I think 8k is fine, and here's why:


Troacctid already noted that MIC has the Millenial Chainmail, which is equivalently priced, but is 3x as powerful, but also has a feat (or spell slot) additional requirement. It seems entirely reasonable that removing the feat requirement and cutting the power from 3x to 1x would offset, leaving an item at approximately 8k, and satisfying BOTH the comparable published item guideline AND the magic item price formula guidelines.

[bekeleven]

Sure, by the numbers those ratios work, but we all know that fast healing 1 is 95% as powerful as fast healing 3.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, the upgrade from fast healing 1 to fast healing 3 is only about 5 HP per combat, which is probably worth about 2k via various temp HP items. Meanwhile, a good feat like True Believer is often worth a solid 10k at least, and millennial chainmail is also alignment- and deity-locked, which allows it to be a little cheaper than a non-relic version of the item. So if you equalize accordingly, you actually end up closer to Biggus's 15–20k range.

[ciopo]

Occasionally. But that's not the point of the question. Where do you draw the line, and why?
Personally, if you don't exit initiative, it's not separate encounters. The line is "do we fast forward minutes passing or are we still counting rounds" to me.

I've played with always active fast healing for the past couple of years thanks to nature's warrior wild growth armament, my perspective is thus that yes, I play much more fast and loose with taking damage. Not much in the sense that I take risks that I otherwise wouldn't, but in the sense that I've got grooved in a mentality of "damage isn't deadly unless it brings me down in one encounter".

I find buying a couple wands of lesser vigor to be the superior option to a continuous effect, for the simple reasoning that over X rounds, we can put fast healing on X creatures, and so it's parallel healing rather than serial.

We also have a couple wands of faith healing our clerics use on themself only when they feel they need to top up fast, but in those cases it's more likely they spontain up a mass cure X wounds, or use a turn attempt with sacred healing for that emergency "everybody is damaged start the damage control NOW NOW NOW"

A "nice" thing about having had always on fast healing is that it helped very well with pacing the medium duration buffs, because instead of being a dm fiat "ok X minutes have passed your barkskin elapsed", it's now "ok I have 30 damage, you guys spend 5 minutes combing the room while I regenerate them, 6 less minutes of duration to barkskin remaining"

[Crichton]

Sure, by the numbers those ratios work, but we all know that fast healing 1 is 95% as powerful as fast healing 3.


Yeah, the upgrade from fast healing 1 to fast healing 3 is only about 5 HP per combat, which is probably worth about 2k via various temp HP items. Meanwhile, a good feat like True Believer is often worth a solid 10k at least, and millennial chainmail is also alignment- and deity-locked, which allows it to be a little cheaper than a non-relic version of the item. So if you equalize accordingly, you actually end up closer to Biggus's 15–20k range.

I don't have any problem with Biggus's 15-20k price range either. That's valid, since pricing custom items is a DM call, and that's not an unreasonable price.

But basing that decision on statement's like 'we all know that fast healing 1 is 95% as powerful as fast healing 3' or only considering how many HP the difference grants INSIDE of combat are both subjective, and not really the point. The point is that it meets the written guidelines of both comparable printed items, and of the formula for pricing.

I'm not aware of listed price adjustments for magic items that require specific deities or specific feats, but the core rules only value alignment at a 30% reduction if I recall correctly. So aside from just using a subjective 'gut feeling' where are you coming up with your 'equalize accordingly figures?

[Biggus]

I don't have any problem with Biggus's 15-20k price range either. That's valid, since pricing custom items is a DM call, and that's not an unreasonable price.

But basing that decision on statement's like 'we all know that fast healing 1 is 95% as powerful as fast healing 3' or only considering how many HP the difference grants INSIDE of combat are both subjective, and not really the point. The point is that it meets the written guidelines of both comparable printed items, and of the formula for pricing.

I'm not aware of listed price adjustments for magic items that require specific deities or specific feats, but the core rules only value alignment at a 30% reduction if I recall correctly. So aside from just using a subjective 'gut feeling' where are you coming up with your 'equalize accordingly figures?

The Arms & Equipment Guide (p.128) says 10,000GP is the typical base price for an item that grants a feat: so if we're comparing the total value of an item which requires a feat to use with an item which does the same thing but doesn't require a feat, the item which doesn't should cost 10,000GP more.

As for 'we all know that fast healing 1 is 95% as powerful as fast healing 3' being subjective, that's true of course, but I've seen many, many people on these boards express similar opinions, and it accords with my own experience. You can argue about what the exact figure should be, but I doubt you'll find a single person who thinks FH3 is worth triple what FH1 is, so in the absence of an objective figure we've no choice to but make an estimate. Personally, I wouldn't pay more than 50% more for FH3 than for FH1, if that.

[Troacctid]

But basing that decision on statement's like 'we all know that fast healing 1 is 95% as powerful as fast healing 3' or only considering how many HP the difference grants INSIDE of combat are both subjective, and not really the point.
They both grant the same HP outside of combat: all of it. Not exactly much to compare there.

[Jack_Simth]

They both grant the same HP outside of combat: all of it. Not exactly much to compare there.

That depends on how much time you have between battles and how much recovery you need. Ten minutes of Fast Healing 1 is 100 hp, vs. Fast Healing 3 at 300. If you're watching buff clocks to space your encounters, that can be quite significant. Likewise, it can be significant if you aren’t in control of encounter timing.

But those are situational, and will vary by table.

[Biggus]

So I just found out what WotC thought a Fast Healing 3 item was worth:


Ring of Rapid Healing

This ring grants a living wearer fast healing 3. It must be worn for 24 hours before its powers activate, and if removed it will not function again until it has been worn for 24 hours by the same individual.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Forge Ring, Forge Epic Ring, regenerate; Market Price: 300,000 gp.

Funnily enough, if you follow the "FH1 should cost one-ninth of what FH3 does" principle, FH1 would cost 33.33K, very close to Beni-Kujaku's 32.76K figure... :smalltongue:

[Vaern]

So I just found out what WotC thought a Fast Healing 3 item was worth:



Funnily enough, if you follow the "FH1 should cost one-ninth of what FH3 does" principle, FH1 would cost 33.33K, very close to Beni-Kujaku's 32.76K figure... :smalltongue:

That requires craft epic ring to make, and being CL 20 it would probably be right at the bottom end of epic-tier gear. One might argue that this ring is epic but fast healing 1 could be considered non-epic, so you could also drop the 10x epic cost multiplier while you're at it and end up at 3,333 gp.

[Blackhawk748]

That requires craft epic ring to make, and being CL 20 it would probably be right at the bottom end of epic-tier gear. One might argue that this ring is epic but fast healing 1 could be considered non-epic, so you could also drop the 10x epic cost multiplier while you're at it and end up at 3,333 gp.

Which puts it at even cheaper then I figured it.