Barbarian + Champion subclass = balance?

[Schwann145]

Wondering if just adding the Champion Fighter subclass features to the core Barbarian would break anything.

The Barb is already super pidgeon-holed as a Str melee class with terrible ranged options and an over-reliance on specific feats. So I figure, why not just go all-in on their niche, right?

From the Champion:
•Improved/Superior Critical takes a pretty lame ability (Brutal Critical) and makes it actually quite good. It would also go a long way toward solving the damage problem Barbarians have when they don't/can't have GWM.
•Remarkable Athlete is a very lame duck ability but it's at least pretty thematically appropriate for a Barbarian, right?
•Fighting Style comes later than the others who get it (makes sense - less "traditional" combat training than classes like Fighter or Paladin) and fills the obvious hole that Barbs were missing it already.
•Survivor, stacked with Rage, seems too good... until you remember it doesn't come online until 18th level, and since all melee (and Barbs especially) are hurting in the tier 4 play, this seems fine to me. (Step 1 in making melee not suck, amirite?)

tl;dr - Barbs really struggle without specific feats and also in later gameplay. Champion Fighters are incredibly boring, even if mathematically okay, and basically never get played. I think this solves two problems without being too much, but input would be great.


Edit: To be clear, I'm not talking about multiclassing or adding Champion to the list of possible Barbarian subclasses. I'm talking about taking what Champion has, giving it directly to the core Barbarian, and then letting the Barbarian pick from their usual subclass options. :)

[Sherlockpwns]

In a game where a dm can simply change the rules, enemies, etc; nothing is unbalanced or balanced.

But if I understand the question is if you just slap the fighters abilities into the Barb chassis- most of your issues will come from multi class. The real problem I have with it though is the fact that all barbarian subclasses key off rage. This would not. So it’s thematically a bit weird.

Anyway it’s probably not the end of the world but you could get some bonkers crit fishing numbers that are otherwise much less powerful due to how many classes you need. Most importantly- barbarian rogue. Ideally with elven advantage. 3 rolls per attack with 10% crit chance and sneak dice on top of it will make for some spiky damage that can be hard to plan for.

[strangebloke]

Barbarian is really strong levels 1 to 5. If they fall off at all (and I would argue they do) its more after level 8 or so, since Brutal Critical is one of the most anemic non-ribbon features in the game.

if you replaced brutal critical with improved critical, it'd probably be balanced, though I don't know what you'd do for later brutal crit levels like 13. Greater improved critical at that point seems like too much to me personally.

[bid]

Barbarian is really strong levels 1 to 5. If they fall off at all (and I would argue they do) its more after level 8 or so, since Brutal Critical is one of the most anemic non-ribbon features in the game.

if you replaced brutal critical with improved critical, it'd probably be balanced, though I don't know what you'd do for later brutal crit levels like 13. Greater improved critical at that point seems like too much to me personally.

I'd do both:
- level 9 brutal critical: crit on 19 + extra die on 20
- level 13 brutal critical: crit on 18 + another extra die on 19+
- level 17 brutal critical: crit on 17 + another extra die on 18+
So rolling 19 at level 17 would get 2 extra die and be a crit.

[animorte]

Champion up to level 3, then straight Barbarian. Unless you want the level 4 ASI and level 5 extra attack. But you really get everything you need from the Fighter class and Champion subclass by level 3 otherwise (fighting style, second wind, action surge, improved critical). Then just fully embrace the Unarmored Defense of the Barbarian, add a Shield for awesome AC, maybe even Defensive Duelist feat for more melee AC and/or Shield Master feat for better durability vs casters.

Unstoppable. Of course I'm not sure what Barbarian subclass you want, but that's already everything you really need. The rest is just flavor preference.

[tKUUNK]

Yeah, the only thing that hits me as maybe a bit too potent is Survivor at lv18...but as others mentioned, that might be fine at lv18 when meteor swarms & such are a thing.

I seem to remember folks speculating about adding Champion features to the fighter base class. So this thread has me envisioning a game where that's the case for fighters, barbs, rangers, and monks. And rogues? Yeah sneak attack could get crazy, but you still need to roll 19. I'm not saying these classes NEED the boost, but balance-wise, I think it would USUALLY be okay. At least in the groups I've played with. Maybe not for uber-cheese maximizers.

Anyway, you have me thinking.

[Schwann145]

Champion up to level 3, then straight Barbarian. Unless you want the level 4 ASI and level 5 extra attack. But you really get everything you need from the Fighter class and Champion subclass by level 3 otherwise (fighting style, second wind, action surge, improved critical). Then just fully embrace the Unarmored Defense of the Barbarian, add a Shield for awesome AC, maybe even Defensive Duelist feat for more melee AC and/or Shield Master feat for better durability vs casters.

Unstoppable. Of course I'm not sure what Barbarian subclass you want, but that's already everything you really need. The rest is just flavor preference.

I meant this as a redesign, not a multi-class. So taking the abilities from the Champion subclass and tacking them directly onto the Barbarian chassis. :)

[animorte]

I meant this as a redesign, not a multi-class. So taking the abilities from the Champion subclass and tacking them directly onto the Barbarian chassis. :)

Yeah pretty much, or at least just the Improved Critical. I would trade that out for Reckless Attack at every opportunity, especially since I generally prefer Dex anyway. Or just tack Unarmored Defense onto a Fighter. That's really the whole point of what I wanted, haha.

[Bosh]

The main problems with the barbarian class is it's really frontloaded and doesn't have much out of combat utility. After level five (or level 6 for a few subclasses) you're generally much better off multiclassing (even from a non-CharOp perspective, barbarogues are so fun and just dripping in flavor). Giving them another useful combat-only ability at level three just exacerbates this. If you want to tweak barbarians let them use rage out of combat would help a bit so they can do great feats of strength in non-combat situations and give them more interesting things are higher levels.

[Mastikator]

Barbarians offer a lot to combat but very little to the other two pillars of play. It certainly isn't helpful that a common way to play is to have one party face, you wouldn't accept a party where one player is "the combat one", IMO every player should participate in every pillar of play, sidelining a player because now is talky time feels awful. I don't think I'd replace brutal critical with anything. That can be the ribbon feature at level 9, the main thing they should get at level 9 should either be an exploration or a social ability, something actually useful.

[Psyren]

It doesn't solve any of their lategame problems, specifically their issues with charm, frighten, and BFC effects shutting off their rage before they can hit 15th level.

As the most vanilla fighter, Champion should get an additional ASI imo. That would at least let you buff Wis saves once your build is otherwise complete.

[bid]

Champion up to level 3, then straight Barbarian. Unless you want the level 4 ASI and level 5 extra attack. But you really get everything you need from the Fighter class and Champion subclass by level 3 otherwise (fighting style, second wind, action surge, improved critical). Then just fully embrace the Unarmored Defense of the Barbarian, add a Shield for awesome AC, maybe even Defensive Duelist feat for more melee AC and/or Shield Master feat for better durability vs casters.

Unstoppable. Of course I'm not sure what Barbarian subclass you want, but that's already everything you really need. The rest is just flavor preference.
I'll stop you right there. It has been demonstrated over and over that Improved Critical is a trap feature. Same thing for Unarmored Defense.

[animorte]

I'll stop you right there. It has been demonstrated over and over that Improved Critical is a trap feature. Same thing for Unarmored Defense.

I have also seen this, but whether its perceived as a trap or not, it provides a great amount of viability at least in low levels.

But before I really start to go into detail on my opinion and start throwing out some real numbers, please elaborate...

[Bosh]

I'll stop you right there. It has been demonstrated over and over that Improved Critical is a trap feature. Same thing for Unarmored Defense.

In general yes, in some specific situations such as a rogue with a barb dip they can come in handy.

[bid]

In general yes, in some specific situations such as a rogue with a barb dip they can come in handy.
A Strogue would Dex14, expertise Athletics and boost Str to play El Luchador.
I'd rather MC monk and boost perception if I'm staying Dex though.
But yeah, as a roleplay concept it's perfectly fine to MC barb over another martial.


I have also seen this, but whether its perceived as a trap or not, it provides a great amount of viability at least in low levels.

But before I really start to go into detail on my opinion and start throwing out some real numbers, please elaborate...
Short shrift:
- with 20 attack rolls, you get 7 extra damage from improved critical. A single precision SD converts a miss into 10 damage. You will die before doing the 100 attack rolls necessary to match it.
- half-plate adds the same AC as Con20. Which level 12 would pick Str16 + Con20 over Str20 + half-plate?

Look at the past discussions if this isn't enough to reach the expected conclusion.

[Chronos]

I wouldn't say that Improved Critical is a trap, per se: After all, it's always better to have it than to not have it. And it's not like there's any opportunity cost to use it.

It's just not very much better to have it than to not have it. It's weak, not a trap.

As for out-of-combat utility, my group has at least found that the Eyes of the Eagle from Totem (seeing at a mile as clearly as at 100') is handy. Though that's still only one feature, useful in only some situations, and at fairly low level.

[animorte]

Look at the past discussions if this isn't enough to reach the expected conclusion.

First, please note that I absolutely agree on your points about Improved Critical. There's also this:


And it's not like there's any opportunity cost to use it. It's weak, not a trap.

I don't think it's a trap specifically because you aren't expending any form of resources to acquire or use it. It's just always there.

Second: I was specifically speaking of how I would prefer IC over RA. My thing against RA is that it automatically grants advantage on all attack rolls against you, while granting you advantage on only Str attacks. There are plenty enough other ways to get advantage on your attack rolls, I think.


Yeah pretty much, or at least just the Improved Critical. I would trade that out for Reckless Attack at every opportunity, especially since I generally prefer Dex anyway. Or just tack Unarmored Defense onto a Fighter. That's really the whole point of what I wanted, haha.

Personally, I would never find myself building Champion Fighter. But that's what the OP was all about. I feel like it's a basic straightforward Fighter for those who may not be comfortable enough with the game yet to keep track of everything on more complex subclasses. Again, if you'll notice I wasn't trying to make any argument particularly for Improved Critical, I just don't care for Reckless Attack. But I love Unarmored Defense.

[Greywander]

I was working on a homebrew class based mostly off of the Doomslayer, and I gave it both Improved/Superior Critical and Brutal Critical. I calculated that both together give roughly a 27% damage increase, compared to the 50% increase fighters and paladins get from their 11th level features. It's not terrible, but it is a bit lackluster.

[Quietus]

I'll stop you right there. It has been demonstrated over and over that Improved Critical is a trap feature. Same thing for Unarmored Defense.

Improved Critical is a trap feature because A) it has nothing else it's playing off of, and B) it is your entire third and fifteenth level subclass feature. The only way to make it mathematically relevant is to start adding increased chances to crit, and increased dice from landing those crits. Barbarian provides both through Reckless Attack and Brutal Critical, the latter of which is also a vastly underpowered feature in its own right. By combining the two features, you create synergy that increases the value of both.

As noted previously in the thread, Barbarians are great in levels 1-5, and really only start to lose steam toward the end of tier2, when they start getting Brutal Critical. So we won't touch levels 1-8 at all. I'd propose that the Barbarian 9-20 progression could change to the below, listed out for ease of following which levels have value. I'd also scrap the "rage damage" column and tie rage bonus damage to proficiency, while leaving number of rages scaling only by class level. They've clearly counted "+1 rage damageg" as a relevant level-up ability, and it really is not.

Level 9 : Brutal Critical 1, Fighting Style (I'd give the choice between Great Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Thrown Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, and Unarmed Fighting)
Level 10 : Path Feature
Level 11 : Relentless Rage (con save to not die - nice now, and gains synergy at level 15)
Level 12 : ASI
Level 13 : Brutal Critical 2, Improved Critical (We're starting to see that synergy, 5% increased chance to crit, AND we bump those crits even further)
Level 14 : Path Feature
Level 15 : Persistent Rage, Survivor (Now we're a powerhouse! Nothing can stop our rage, and I would make Survivor only apply while raging)
Level 16 : ASI
Level 17 : Brutal Critical 3, Superior Critical (15% chance to crit. Each crit does 3 extra dice. NOW we're talking!)
Level 18 : Indomitable Might, Remarkable Athlete (As long as we're relying on "Do better ability checks" as a feature, let's go all-in)
Level 19 : ASI
Level 20 : Primal Champion (One of the best capstones of the game!)


If you ask me, that's a VERY powerful class, albeit one that is extremely tightly focused. By leaning that hard into Barbarian, you are saying you want to be the juggernaut. Let's fulfill that fantasy!

[Schwann145]

snip

I'd throw Two-Weapon Fighting in a a Combat Style option, but otherwise I like. :)

[Sorinth]

How would people feel if Brutal Critical also increased the number of d20 when attacking at advantage. So basically triple advantage at level 9, quadruple advantage at level 13th, and quintuple at level 17. Rolling 5d20 and taking the highest when attacking would certainly make barbarians feel unique.

[Quietus]

I'd throw Two-Weapon Fighting in a a Combat Style option, but otherwise I like. :)

Absolutely! I thought the same after walking away for an hour, but hadn't taken the chance to edit that in. Doing so now. :)

[bid]

Level 13 : Brutal Critical 2, Improved Critical (We're starting to see that synergy, 5% increased chance to crit, AND we bump those crits even further)
This is also the point at which Improved Critical is worth the 3-level dip. I love it because it gets you the crit build you want without the risk of nerfing.

That's what, about +21 damage per "19" and double the chance to BA-GWM.
Maybe +3 dpr overall, right?

[CMCC]

In a game where a dm can simply change the rules, enemies, etc; nothing is unbalanced or balanced.


Not necessarily true. Balance is there to make sure the DM can create challenging encounters for all the party members. Making a class unbalanced or OP, would mean that whoever picks that class will 1. outshine his/her counterparts at the table, and 2. make it incredibly difficult for the DM to make the encounter fair and challenging for each player, which increases the chances of either boredom or unnecessary/ too frequent player death.

[Quietus]

This is also the point at which Improved Critical is worth the 3-level dip. I love it because it gets you the crit build you want without the risk of nerfing.

That's what, about +21 damage per "19" and double the chance to BA-GWM.
Maybe +3 dpr overall, right?

Off the top of my head - a barb with a great axe at this level is adding +3d12 (19.5) damage on a crit. 10% chance to crit, means just under 2 damage average per hit. It also means a 5% greater chance of landing a GWM bonus action attack, so if we're looking at a +1 axe, 20 str, and GWM, that bonus action is worth 22.5 damage average, not accounting for accuracy. 5% of that is around 1.1, so yeah, roughly 3 damage per swing. Not exactly a crazy amount, even though it'll seem like a lot more when you do land those crits!

When you get 3 bonus dice and 15% crit, it's more skin to a roughly~7 damage boost per hit? Still not nothing, but because that's packed into individual crits for 5d12+15+<axe magic bonus>, it'll FEEL great when it lands.

Also nice to note, with great weapon fighting style, you might get a little more mileage, by stabilizing those crit damage rolls.

[Ulsan Krow]

At low levels Barbara is fine as everyone has already said.

At mid levels Barbara's damage is still good, other martials aren't getting huge DPR boosts yet that Barb can't match. Remarkable Athlete is a small bit of added OOC utility, Fighting Style feature is either going to make you a little bit tankier or boost your DPR mildly.

At high levels Barb falls off hard, Brutal Critical is a total non feature so having Improved + Superior Critical which really amplifies that crappy feature is actually a good fix IMO. Gives Barb a bit of a different identity from the more consistent DPR of the other martials, also Barb being so one note in combat its at least nice if the enjoyability index of the class is driven by frequent, massive crits.

Survivor is kind of nice to make Barbarian as unkillable as anything, it's already the tankiest martial though so all it does is make death a non concern for Barbarian. Being able to survive lots of things is also a utility in itself - instead of trying to disarm traps the tank can just eat the damage and regenerate it back.


So what this subclass add on does is quite nicely patch over Barbarian's lategame DPR woes and amplify its identity as a tank. Doesn't do much on the other hand to rectify its concerns in the two other pillars. OOC use for Rage really would be awesome

[bid]

10% chance to crit, means just under 2 damage average per hit.
5% of that is around 1.1, so yeah, roughly 3 damage per swing.
I think we're getting the same result. Yours is overall, including the RAW crit-on-20, right?

And I'm too lazy to check, but you used greataxe because maul would only give 1d6 per brutal level.

[Quietus]

I think we're getting the same result. Yours is overall, including the RAW crit-on-20, right?

And I'm too lazy to check, but you used greataxe because maul would only give 1d6 per brutal level.

Correct on all counts. Greataxe has the largest benefit from brutal critical, so I thought I would give it the greatest possible benefit.