How gamebreaking is it to start Large?

[SangoProduction]

As in just get to choose to be large instead of medium or small for your base race.

Enlarge Person would bring you to Huge. Is that a big deal? It's damned good deal of reach.
If it is a huge deal, then would changing one's type to monstrous humanoid when selecting large make it more reasonable?

[Max Caysey]

As in just get to choose to be large instead of medium or small for your base race.

Enlarge Person would bring you to Huge. Is that a big deal? It's damned good deal of reach.
If it is a huge deal, then would changing one's type to monstrous humanoid when selecting large make it more reasonable?

Depends on what kind of game you play… are ogors much more difficult to shivering touch, than say an orc?

[NerdHut]

I wouldn't call it game-breaking by any means, but it does shift the balance of the game in some ways. Some years back, I was in a campaign where we started at level 2. I played a Half-Ogre (Dragon Magazine version), with LA +1 and one Barbarian level. On raw damage dealt and ignored (Natural AC ftw), I outperformed every individual other player because my AC was good and my damage was something like 3d6+8ish per attack. But I was nearly useless outside of combat, except for lighthearted RP (which was perfectly fine, it was a large group). Getting into normally scaled buildings was a challenge, sneaking was nonexistant, my INT and CHA scores were absolute garbage. But the character got the spotlight when he was supposed to. So despite the power disparity in low-level combat specifically, it was not game-breaking. Because remember: With a great strength score comes a great volume of Will Saves.

[Saintheart]

I regard it as a big advantage.











I'll see myself out.

[NerdHut]

I regard it as a big advantage.











I'll see myself out.

How do I upvote this? Is there a reblog button or anything?

[Troacctid]

Growing a size category is a very substantial advantage. Is it gamebreaking to give players substantial advantages? I guess that depends on your point of view. What constitutes "gamebreaking"? Would it be gamebreaking to give players +4 to all ability scores, or double WBL, or triple the usual number of feats?

My take is, these are all things that obviously increase the power level of the PCs. You can have more powerful PCs and still have a game. There's plenty of give. Having the universal option to choose Small, Medium, or Large during character creation regardless of race is more gamebreaking than changing the feat progression from 3.5 to Pathfinder, and less gamebreaking than gestalt.

But, look, here's the thing. First off, more powerful PCs does not equal a more fun game. But second, and more importantly, not all ways of powering up PCs is equally fun or interesting. The choice of being Large is not compelling or meaningful in any way. Are you a melee character? Bigger is better. Are you a caster with no interest in conventional weapons? Smaller is better. Boom, solved it! That's pretty much all the depth there is to it. Furthermore, the change is likely to result in homogenization of builds rather than diversification. Every melee character now starts with the same major power points of natural reach, increased base weapon damage, and improved combat maneuvers. That's likely more powerful than your class features for any class that wants to be Large, so you're going to see everyone trending towards optimizing those size traits, regardless of class. Melee characters end up being samey, even more so than usual. Finally, being an oversized lunk isn't great for gameplay! You're going to be constantly running into logistical problems and squeezing rules and stuff, and it's just annoying. You see this all the time already with paladins having trouble riding on horseback in dungeons; imagine instead of only mounted builds having this problem, every build has this problem.

Meanwhile, the prospect of Large halflings and Small goliaths raises some serious etymological questions.

So, if it doesn't make the game more interesting, and it doesn't make the game more balanced, and it doesn't make the game more fun...where is the upside? What are you trying to accomplish, and why is this the best way to accomplish it?

[Kurald Galain]

As in just get to choose to be large instead of medium or small for your base race.
A large race could work, both in terms of roleplaying and in terms of balance, if it comes with drawbacks to compensate for its automatic reach and bonus to attack rolls. For instance, lower AC; equipment that's hard to find and way more expensive in large size; social penalties; not fitting in certain rooms and dungeons; things like that. Sure, it's powerful, but races like Aasimar or anything with wings are also powerful.

I'd call it potentially interesting.


I regard it as a big advantage.
Yeeeeaaaaah :smallcool:

[pabelfly]

Not in of itself gamebreaking (but quite strong at very low levels) but can be a problem quite quickly when combined with stuff like Combat Reflexes and trip attacks, and instead of 5ft reach they have 15ft and regular melee characters can't really touch them.

[Vaern]

It really only seems overpowered for a low level fighter or barbarian, while the increased weapon damage die size is actually meaningful. They'll still fail off mid to late game, but they might manage to stay relevant for an extra level or two.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It really only seems overpowered for a low level fighter or barbarian, while the increased weapon damage die size is actually meaningful. They'll still fail off mid to late game, but they might manage to stay relevant for an extra level or two.

Reach and increased Combat Maneuvers bonus help from 1 through 20. Reaching Huge size with a level of PsyWarrior is no small deal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If it's not gamebreaking at level 2, it's not much more so at level 1, and it's very easy to go Large at level 1 with a level of cleric, psychic warrior, or barbarian (with an ACF) with +1 LA for Huge at level 2.

[Doctor Despair]

Natural large size is available at LA+1 with Dragon Magazine, or LA+2 without.

With Human Heritage, permanent-duration huge size is available as soon as you can afford it (iirc it's like 3k gold, so ECL4 or 5) when combined with one of the other options.

Short-duration huge size is available earlier, of course.

Imo, being large isn't super problematic. The bonuses are good, but fairly priced. Being huge, however, is more of an issue. Some feats that capitalize on your size (like Crush) can easily become overwhelming in a low-OP setting.

As a result, offering "free" large size is also problematic-- not because large size is problematic, but because.it makes huge size way easier to get.

[Ramza00]

It is unbalanced, yet I can list a dozen other things that are unbalanced from ecl01 to 08.

So think of it as a game of paper, rock, scissors. You are good at some things, perhaps too good, but you are not good at all things and thus you have the rest of the party. Likewise your DM should throw at least 25% of encounters that are effortlesss with these tricks, but also at least 25% of the encounters the dms should be designed where “your” tricks … your large / huge / colossal size should not have a positive effect and possible be a disadvantage.

[Particle_Man]

It opens up a few feats and prestige classes. If you start a bit higher level it opens up wings on the half-dragon template.

But I don’t think it breaks the game as such.