UA - lunar magic broken

[Mitchellnotes]

There was some discussion on lunar magic in another thread, but i thought id start a new thread to help consolidate conversation. I think the lunar magic sorc subclass looks broken, and i say this as someone who likes the tasha's classes. I don't think that it is in having access to additional spells, even if it ends up totalling 15. Im going to break down my thoughts here, what do others think?

1. Moonfire-
Free cantrip with a conditional free twin. Overall ok, maybe a little strong. Not the first twinned cantrip ability and is still pretty limited

1. Lunar embodiment-
Way overpowered. People seem go focus on the bonus spells (and being able to switch them), but i think what walks this frombeing strong to broken is the paragraph after the table providing the opportunity to cast each spell once without expending a spell slot. This ends up being a Lot of additional spells. Also, pay attention to the language that "...once you cast a spell in this way..."

6. Lunar boons
This ends up being free additional metamagic. Strong in that it can save you basically your prof bonus in SP, but very, very fiddly. There are likely some very good combinations (twinned, extend?), but youd need to plan to hit the school with the right metamagic.

6. Waxing and waning
This ability is what combines with the rest of the subclass to break it all. There is no information about what happens to the bonus spells in lunar embodiment if you switch moons. Given the language around being able to cast each spell once, it would at least seem like you could get each bonus spell in each phase - 15 free spells - which is just.... i have to imagine this is just pootly edited. There is no way this is intentional!

14. Lunar embodiment
What makes this feature overpowered is that it is just always on, and can be switched to at any point. Crescent moon seems the most tame, and that is resistances to 2 damage types! Full moon is always on advantage to saves (in an area!) and new moon is a constant defense against physical attacks. Remember, this can be switched as a bonus action for 1 SP. This means that this ability is always going to be engaged as the most relevant of 3 powerful features.

18. Lunar phenomenon
3 decent features, each usable once (or more for 5 SPs). Overall, decent and probably the most tame feature.

I cannot imagine that some of this is intentional. While the bonus spells i think are fine (though provide a lot of flexibility), the free casts need to go. I'd also switch the the 14th dnd 18th features (and limit lunar embodiment is some way. Prof times use a day, using a reaction, something)

[diplomancer]

There was some discussion on lunar magic in another thread, but i thought id start a new thread to help consolidate conversation. I think the lunar magic sorc subclass looks broken, and i say this as someone who likes the tasha's classes. I don't think that it is in having access to additional spells, even if it ends up totalling 15. Im going to break down my thoughts here, what do others think?

1. Moonfire-
Free cantrip with a conditional free twin. Overall ok, maybe a little strong. Not the first twinned cantrip ability and is still pretty limited

1. Lunar embodiment-
Way overpowered. People seem go focus on the bonus spells (and being able to switch them), but i think what walks this frombeing strong to broken is the paragraph after the table providing the opportunity to cast each spell once without expending a spell slot. This ends up being a Lot of additional spells. Also, pay attention to the language that "...once you cast a spell in this way..."

6. Lunar boons
This ends up being free additional metamagic. Strong in that it can save you basically your prof bonus in SP, but very, very fiddly. There are likely some very good combinations (twinned, extend?), but youd need to plan to hit the school with the right metamagic.

6. Waxing and waning
This ability is what combines with the rest of the subclass to break it all. There is no information about what happens to the bonus spells in lunar embodiment if you switch moons. Given the language around being able to cast each spell once, it would at least seem like you could get each bonus spell in each phase - 15 free spells - which is just.... i have to imagine this is just pootly edited. There is no way this is intentional!

14. Lunar embodiment
What makes this feature overpowered is that it is just always on, and can be switched to at any point. Crescent moon seems the most tame, and that is resistances to 2 damage types! Full moon is always on advantage to saves (in an area!) and new moon is a constant defense against physical attacks. Remember, this can be switched as a bonus action for 1 SP. This means that this ability is always going to be engaged as the most relevant of 3 powerful features.

18. Lunar phenomenon
3 decent features, each usable once (or more for 5 SPs). Overall, decent and probably the most tame feature.

I cannot imagine that some of this is intentional. While the bonus spells i think are fine (though provide a lot of flexibility), the free casts need to go. I'd also switch the the 14th dnd 18th features (and limit lunar embodiment is some way. Prof times use a day, using a reaction, something)

The extra spell, I think both RAW and RAI, is one free slot a day; not 5, not 15. But it does need to be better written to avoid controversy.

RAW, they add all 15 spells to their spells known, but I believe the intent is to have only 5 at one time.

If my suggestions are implemented, it balances out quite nicely, I believe.

[Saelethil]

My hope is that the intention was to only give 1 free casting but need to tighten up the wording. If that’s the case then they’re flexible but not busted IMO. If this is the case, fixing the wording for the final print should solve it. If the intent is for 15 free castings then it’s about to be banned by any DM that reads it.

[Boci]

The extra spell, I think both RAW and RAI, is one free slot a day; not 5, not 15. But it does need to be better written to avoid controversy.

RAW, they add all 15 spells to their spells known, but I believe the intent is to have only 5 at one time.

If my suggestions are implemented, it balances out quite nicely, I believe.

But even with "just" 5 bonus spells at a time, from level 6 they can swap for a bonus action and 1 SP no? So its still 15 bonus feats, just with some fairly negligible hoops to jump through.

This is now beyond RAW, but maybe you shouldn't get them as bonus spells. Instead, you only get the one free spell from the 15. This sucks, since bonus spells for sorcerer archetypes are definitely a good thing, but this is the shortest way I can think to fix it.

Or maybe just cut Waxing and waning. Lunar Boon is the only feature they get at level 6 (lets have a moment of silence for the poor lunar sorceor). So still 15 bonus spells, but actually only 5 at a time, the other 10 locked behind a long rest, rather than a bonus action.

[diplomancer]

But even with "just" 5 bonus spells at a time, from level 6 they can swap for a bonus action and 1 SP no? So its still 15 bonus feats, just with some fairly negligible hoops to jump through.

This is now beyond RAW, but maybe you shouldn't get them as bonus spells. Instead, you only get the one free spell from the 15. This sucks, since bonus spells for sorcerer archetypes are definitely a good thing, but this is the shortest way I can think to fix it.

Or maybe just cut Waxing and waning. Lunar Boon is the only feature they get at level 6 (lets have a moment of silence for the poor lunar sorceor). So still 15 bonus spells, but actually only 5 at a time, the other 10 locked behind a long rest, rather than a bonus action.

What is better, 15 extra known spells from a closed list (but you can only know 1 group of 5 at a time, and to switch between groups you have to spend 1SP), or 10 extra known spells from a more flexible list (the Tasha's subclasses)?

Honestly, I don't know... which, to me at least, means that it's balanced.

[DarknessEternal]

There are official feedback channels for UA.

[Mitchellnotes]

The extra spell, I think both RAW and RAI, is one free slot a day; not 5, not 15. But it does need to be better written to avoid controversy.

RAW, they add all 15 spells to their spells known, but I believe the intent is to have only 5 at one time.

If my suggestions are implemented, it balances out quite nicely, I believe.

Language is below. There is some ambiguity between "spells" referencing what you can use and the language around casting a spell in this way. Rereading it, i can see where you are coming from, but there could be more clarity provided with how the feature is used. I don't think the free spell is needed, the spell access is very strong already. I do like the ability to switch between the phases and having different spells available, but its strong flexibility on a strong class.

"While in the chosen phase, spells of the associated phase in the Lunar Spells table can be cast once without expending a spell slot. Once you cast a spell in this way, you can’t do so again until you finish a long rest."

Do you mind sharing your tweaks? The level 14 feature is the other one that seems very strong.

[tokek]

What is better, 15 extra known spells from a closed list (but you can only know 1 group of 5 at a time, and to switch between groups you have to spend 1SP), or 10 extra known spells from a more flexible list (the Tasha's subclasses)?

Honestly, I don't know... which, to me at least, means that it's balanced.

I agree. 15 decent spells is good but its likely you only know 5 at a time and there is a sorcery point cost to switching to a different five.

On a conservative reading of the UA - the wording of which clearly needs cleaning up - I think its a fine subclass very much in line with the Tasha's ones.

[Mitchellnotes]

I agree. 15 decent spells is good but its likely you only know 5 at a time and there is a sorcery point cost to switching to a different five.

On a conservative reading of the UA - the wording of which clearly needs cleaning up - I think its a fine subclass very much in line with the Tasha's ones.

Agreed for the most part, though the flexibility of the level 14 feature is still really strong. It will end up being whatever is best between advantage on all saves, disadvantages on all attacks to hit you, or radiant/necrotic resistance. I still think this is overtuned by a decent bit since one of the three will always be on, and switich is both easy and inexpensive

[tokek]

Agreed for the most part, though the flexibility of the level 14 feature is still really strong. It will end up being whatever is best between advantage on all saves, disadvantages on all attacks to hit you, or radiant/necrotic resistance. I still think this is overtuned by a decent bit since one of the three will always be on, and switich is both easy and inexpensive

Powerful level 14 features I can live with. The only sorcerer I play at the moment is Abberant Mind and their 14th level feature feels comparably flexible and powerful.

Full moon - Similar to the 7th level paladin feature but combines with it well. Powerful but with a visibly obvious drawback that it paints a target on the sorcerer and negates sneaky approaches

New moon - Powerful, situational. There are a number of class features which are also powerful in this situation of darkness or dim light

Crescent moon - Highly situational as are other resistances to rare damage types - e.g. Abberant mind at much lower level and always on.

Its a damn good feature but I don't think it will break any game

[Boci]

Powerful level 14 features I can live with. The only sorcerer I play at the moment is Abberant Mind and their 14th level feature feels comparably flexible and powerful.

Full moon - Similar to the 7th level paladin feature but combines with it well. Powerful but with a visibly obvious drawback that it paints a target on the sorcerer and negates sneaky approaches

New moon - Powerful, situational. There are a number of class features which are also powerful in this situation of darkness or dim light

Crescent moon - Highly situational as are other resistances to rare damage types - e.g. Abberant mind at much lower level and always on.

Its a damn good feature but I don't think it will break any game

"Highly situational" seems like it would matter a whole lot less when you can switch them out with a bonus action and 1 SP. That's a fairly trivial cost outside of combat, and even in combat its doable. So Full moon "nagating stelathy approach" isn't necessarily that big a deal unless you also need to be making those saving throws whilst still being stealthy.

[diplomancer]

"Highly situational" seems like it would matter a whole lot less when you can switch them out with a bonus action and 1 SP. That's a fairly trivial cost outside of combat, and even in combat its doable. So Full moon "nagating stelathy approach" isn't necessarily that big a deal unless you also need to be making those saving throws whilst still being stealthy.

It definitely IS a powerful feature, but:
1- high level powerful features are not that problematic
2- as mentioned, the best one (full moon) is somewhat similar to a Paladin's aura, though it stacks with it.
3- specially at high levels, saves NEED buffing, so good.

[tokek]

It definitely IS a powerful feature, but:
1- high level powerful features are not that problematic
2- as mentioned, the best one (full moon) is somewhat similar to a Paladin's aura, though it stacks with it.
3- specially at high levels, saves NEED buffing, so good.

Its a powerhouse combo but its requires two different classes working together, careful positioning that almost certainly does not suit at least one of them, and it comes online at level 14. The positioning problems don't ease until 18th level, they never go away.

That's not going to break any game. Its fine.

On its own the Full Moon feature here is not as good as the 6th level feature on a Paladin who invests some ASI in Charisma.

That is the strongest of them. Overall the ability to switch is flexible but none of the options are particularly powerful, certainly not by the standards of tier 3 class play.

I don't think it needs any changes. The lower level features need the wording cleaned up a lot, this one is fine as-is in my opinion.

[diplomancer]

Its a powerhouse combo but its requires two different classes working together, careful positioning that almost certainly does not suit at least one of them, and it comes online at level 14. The positioning problems don't ease until 18th level, they never go away.

That's not going to break any game. Its fine.

On its own the Full Moon feature here is not as good as the 6th level feature on a Paladin who invests some ASI in Charisma.

That is the strongest of them. Overall the ability to switch is flexible but none of the options are particularly powerful, certainly not by the standards of tier 3 class play.

I don't think it needs any changes. The lower level features need the wording cleaned up a lot, this one is fine as-is in my opinion.

I agree; if anything, I think the waxing moon feature needs buffing; it's way too situational as is. I might just make it immunity to necrotic/radiance, but maybe some other solution is better.

[ZRN]

I agree. 15 decent spells is good but its likely you only know 5 at a time and there is a sorcery point cost to switching to a different five.

On a conservative reading of the UA - the wording of which clearly needs cleaning up - I think its a fine subclass very much in line with the Tasha's ones.

Agreed. On first scanning the subclass I assumed you could only access your current phase's spells and that you only got one free slot of each level. Fixing the wording to do that much would probably bring this subclass at least close to in line with Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Has anyone tested out the U/A in play?
I have not.

I would love to hear from someone that has.